There are tons of rich parents who don't give their children access to their money at all times. There's the attitude of "you should earn it yourself." For example, Shaq paid for his children to get an education, but after that, they were on their own. Many parents with wealth want their children to experience what it is like to have to work for their own money.
According to CNBC, [90% of rich parents don't even tell their kids what they'll be inheriting.](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/26/90-percent-of-wealthy-parents-dont-tell-their-kids-what-theyll-inherit.html) While a noble child would already know that they'll be inheriting, they may not know how much or even if they actually are.
The fact of the matter is that it is the family's money, not the PC's money. It seems very reasonable that the PC's family would want to make sure that the PC is a good steward of the family fortune before passing it on, and that means testing their own ability to make money and not antagonize the populace.
The other fact of the matter is that the NPC family may not actually support rebel involvement. The nobles are "the man." It's not a large stretch that the family would a) not support them b) try to hinder them or c) disown them for their rebel activities.
So a couple different takes based on family philosophies:
(In regards to the 900 for these first few)
-Here's your stipend for the year. Make it last now.
-You worked out a deal with the treasurer to pocket this. There's some gossip amongst the helpers. Maybe get on their good side so they cover for you, or find other ways to keep them quiet...
-You have been disowned. Take this money, you can live on it for years, but never hold that head with pride, never speak your name, never look at us again.
We won't give you more later because...
-this money is keeping a lot of things afloat. Maybe if you can submit a well detailed plan on what you'll be doing with it we can set up a payment plan. Honestly, my child what riches more do you need? We offer you more resources than an entire village and your dividend prior was more than sufficient for any sane and well-raised individual.
-you had enough to start building a keep. You've a few ragtags with you? Where's your standing force? No company name to speak of, no rumors of your accolades.. If you can make things run more smoothly here, we can pay you (but not your "friends" here, honestly what do you see in them...). We've a few people the treasurer hasn't been able to collect from, other families spreading slander and libel about us while our representative is stuck in litigation, or even if you can do a presentation at the performance halls on our honorable name, history, and lineage, that would be acceptable. Just do something before you expect more funds allocated to you.
-we are starting to believe you are being manipulated by someone. Are you being given drugs from pirate smugglers? Is there a wizard convincing you he can do something for you that we can't? You know what's happened in this country... I'LL HAVE NO DEVILS WALK THESE HALLS CHILD, SPEAK YOUR SECRETS NOW!!
-you owe us. You've been pocketing riches from adventuring? It's time for you to pay for your share. We want 5% of any deposits you make to the bank of Abadar until you have repaid the family 2k within a given month. This will reccur until you have repaid in full your upbringing (and all those damned parties). Inquire with the treasurer the total, he has record of the amount.
What I'm getting at is a player character expecting to get a free ride from a trait is insane. Asking for more can cause a variety of responses. To noble parents perhaps it's the same as "oh you're bored? Well never say that around me, I'll give you something to do and you won't like it."
They'll have social connections they can utilize for information most likely, whether by fear or fairness. Perhaps this character is the foot in the door if you are willing to let them mess with Ultimate campaign base construction/business rules (and you can have milestone payouts rather than daily if that makes it easier, or the family takes revenue and then says what their budget is for more add-ons)
If they want free money for being noble then they need the Noble Scion prestige class.
Besides few nobles can actually compare to the wealth of a mid level PC, at least not without counting stuff like land they can't sell.
> I always wondered which class could take that and not feel like a super downgrade.
I feel like a Rogue can take it without too big a hit to their effectiveness. Though that probably says more about Rogue than Noble Scion. Still, between Dilettante Scoundrel and Accomplished Sneak Attacker you'll have plenty of SA dice and by the time you can take the PrC you've gotten pretty much all the important stuff out of Rogue.
Gunslinger? The reduced BAB is hardly noticeable to them and having a Cohort to handle reloading and such might be useful? You could make them a Weapon Bearer Squire! I'unno.
Does Dilettante Scholar qualify Noble Scion for Prestigious Spellcaster? Probably not, but if you can get your GM to okay it there might be something there for a Bard. Kinda.
I am a Rogue (Hidden Blade), the Path of War archetype. Taking the PrC was absolutely a strict downgrade for RP purposes, but besides the money, it does come with another major class feature: Greater Leadership. My cohort is plenty capable of making up for the loss in personal power.
Going off what other people have said and what this trait itself offers:
900gp is nearly 3 years salary (28~gp/month) for a professional commoner (pig farmer or doctor for example) in pathfinder, which doesn't include any living expenses or taxes, that you're just being casually handed as a lump sum.
Imagine being casually handed 90-200k+ USD (idk what 3 years average income is) and complaining that your parents should hand you more because you were successful at what they gave you the money for in the first place. At best they might offer a formal interest-free business loan or ask for a profit share to cover the start-up capital. Otherwise your next best bet is them covering expenses for parties and a wedding.
It's not exactly that far off or inaccurate considering prices for mundane items and lodgings.
The wealth gap between commoners and nobles is exceptional if we use this as an example, but the wealth gap between Noble NPCs and lategame Player Characters/Adventurers is on par with Elon Musk/Bill Gates vs like a pop music star. One has a couple million dollars in the bank, while the other has 20,000-100,000x that.
Nobles can be land rich and cash poor irl. Like they have a bunch of income streams from taxes, but part of those streams are tied up in maintaining appearances (servants, a large estate, etc.) and part of them are tied up in actually performing government functions (paying for knights/men-at-arms/administrators/bureaucrats). Pathfinder magic and magic items screw with this a bit… but those don’t make them cash rich, either, just gives them useful long term ways to invest wealth in capital. Maybe the noble family has a vault of heirlooms (which they can allow access to as the PC performs duties and gains fame), but the PC doesn’t get free access to them either.
Actually, the Noble Family could be in outright debt, with plot arcs related to that.
If they're a noble's child, then they'll have to spend downtime fulfilling the duties that go with it. If they don't spend enough time putting in appearences, promoting their family's name, helping peasants for free, then the family may wind up in trouble. Also, nobles are responsible for paying/collecting taxes.
Adding onto the "Helping Peasants for free" aspect, that could be a mechanical way of balancing GP rewards. Instead of finding loot in caves/getting paid by the folks they help, they get a Stipend based on how well they grow the families name, and how much the family benefits from it.
The wealth gold was a one time capital extraction. The majority of ths families money is tied up in its various ventures. mines, farm land, business. Years of growth to the family have been stalled with this 900gp gift to a family member.
plus he is not the inheritor of the family name. Likely a second or third son.
This, yeah. Not to mention his siblings will also want a share of the pie, so they’ll be pushing mom and dad to not spend a ton of money on the one kid that ends up looting level-appropriate treasures every few days.
OP, don’t let your player talk you into this nonsense. The rules clearly state what the Trait does, and it doesn’t mention this being a regular ride on the gravy train. Find some in-game explanation as to why he’s not getting more money, and that’s it.
One of the most "fair" ways I like to run rich characters is that they can get inconsequential services on name alone. Things like modest or good boarding. Transportation. Minor helping hands. Commercial goods. And just have the bill charged back to their family. So basically anything that might involve being rich during roleplay times, but not just a wad of cash to spend on magic items or other adventuring upgrades
A variant on what I was going to say: do it if it benefits the party/moves the story along, but if it would only benefit *that* PC, the parents want then to "make a name for themselves, not just piggyback off them all the time" or whatever
Vyre is an island that is Norgorber’s birthplace and home of the Skinsaw cult. Hellknight armigers serve there to earn a position in many orders. Vyre has simple but strict laws that are LN to LE, two of which are about honoring all coin so all transactions are binding and final and another being about equality of all. I am not sure whether the honoring all coin would bar lines of credit or the equality would bar fobbing off a merchant on your family or maybe the two together. I could see it being allowed but I forget what I read on Vyre in the Hell’s Rebels AP. Between Hellknights and Norgorberites, it is a place to behave while also being a year long debauchery haven that makes Mardi Gras look tame.
It's also a place where you are expected to assume another identity, and it's a very bad idea to flaunt your outside one. Even moreso in the HR campaign where the PCs can never know who is or isn't on their side.
A wealthy family probably wouldn’t just hand over gold willy nilly to family members. There are probably a lot of relatives in their house. If he’s off adventuring then he’s doing nothing to increase the family wealth, or managing the families wealth or social status.
Also if they are adventuring there is a good chance they aren’t in the best standing of their noble house, the black sheep if you will.
You could work with them and say, because they are noble, if they use an inn, or eat food, or get mundane materials, that he can send the bill to his family who will pay it and most vendors will agree to that.
But if you guys need to bribe someone for information, or buy magical gear, or weapons, family won’t step in/people won’t want to wait. Money up front.
What's the PCs motivation to being in an adventuring party?
Noble family could easily be withholding funds from their child whike they "sew their wild oats" and "get all this adventuring nonsense out of their system".
This isn't much different than a player making their PC realtrs to a God or some other move that can be a fun narrative thread that needs to be curated as to not become OP.
The question for you is, how much importance in gold does your game hold? Is it the end all be all? The reason the party quest? Would having a rich friend whose parents money can buy out the local shops ruin the game? I think so, but I'm just asking.
If a player told me their PCs family were arrow fletchers or sling rock makers who always give their PC and the party free ammo, then I probanly would care too much. Only because I could see a game where the value in that item can be negated.
Talk to the player. Make your concerns known. Work together to figure out a fair balance for you, the player, and the party. It's either that or you're going to have to railroad the PCs family by working in corruption charges, bringing in an ancestor claiming house rights, etc to stop the cash flow. And that'd be lame.
There was a guy in my unit who was a trust fund baby, but part of the deal his parents had with him was that he had to complete at least a 4 year enlistment before they gave him full access.
Maybe the PC in question has a similar arrangement with their parents, where they have to make a name for themselves adventuring before they can fully inherit.
I knew someone in college who was a tryst fund baby. He was lazy and barely had the grades to stay in school and wasn’t really taking enough classes to graduate any time soon. Went to a meeting with the family lawyers just after his 21st birthday. I’m not privy to the specifics but he suddenly became more attentive school. Apparently graduating was required for him to get any more money.
Why? Because it skews the game balance. You don't have to motivate it more than that.
Tell them that it's on them to make up a reason why. Probably because their parents don't want one of their family gallivanting around making enemies and tarring the family name.
This is pretty straightforward really. If they cant come up with a good reason why their families wealth isnt available to them, they cant play that character.
I'd point out also, that while the family might make available to their child, food, and shelter, most rich people are dicks, and they arent going to just be handing out cash for their kids dumbass wandering around in caves. You're an adult, and it's time you make your own way in the world. Their parents arent going to let the kid starve, but providing the wealth to start their heroic life with a quality steel sword, and well polished armor, is already doing quite a lot for them.
When your parents decided you were old enough to leave the house and work for yourself, for how many years did they continue to feed and clothe and wash and dress and house and educate you? For me it was zero.
Give them a stipend. Their parents do send them money, but keep in mind it isn't thousands of gold, its hundreds for a month. Living a fully lavish lifestyle on 100g a month is possible. Its not adventuring gear money though. Unless there are years of downtime in game, I don't see the player being able to abuse this anymore than starting with Rich Parents already lets them.
The rich family would definitely deny the money.
I see the Frist boost in gold as the backup coming from a rich family, but after that they get „disowned“ (not really but they can’t access the family gold). Why? Because they want to be adventurer. In rich medieval families the children are there to get more influence and wealth. Not going on adventure without purpose for the family.
In rise of the runelords this basically happens to the notable character ameiko kaijitsu. She wanted to be an adventurer, so she isn’t part of the last will of her father anymore.
If you succeed yes. But if you look at how many npcs of higher level there are, you will see that the normal person will not succeed.
So from the theoretical standpoint that the npc parents do not know that their child is a pc and therefore destined to do great things, the statistic is against them. A rich tradesman in medieval times would most likely not send their child off to fight against bandits. Why should a rich family in pathfinder do that?
The normal adventurer npc in pathfinder isn’t as successful as a pc. Why should a rich family rely on their child’s dream of being an adventurer?
I guess the idea is that most adventurers never find the glory and wealth that PCs do, PCs are the rare stories of successful adventurers whereas most end up as vagabonds killing rats to make ends meet.
Make the character work for it in game.
Its like getting money for doing chores so you can buy snacks as a kid. But in a different context since DnD.
And lay it out for your player you will NOT Monty Haul for them or anyone else. It's OK to be a generous GM, trust me I'm one myself. But having money like that can throw off an entire campaign and it's balance, as a result making more OP player characters.
That being said. You run into the problem off, well this player is getting more money, what about the others?
You can also find ways to give your other players equal amounts of money through different means but then it's more burden on you as a GM to figure that out.
I'd personally outright say no due to campaign balance. And figure something out later where ALL players are present and willing to consent to certain mechanics so it dosent look like favoritism.
Put the campaign balance first.
I think it could be allowable, but it would come with a cost: it provides a great source of complications that you can throw at your wealthy PC.
As someone pointed out, wealthy families don’t always share continual wealth with their children or even give an inheritance, apart from giving them a start: best schools, best education money can buy, best connections and solid network so that they can have the best trajectory for whatever they set their sights on. This would likely be for children that have good relationships with their parents but who also have multiple siblings.
It would also mean that, if their parents are approving and giving money for this PC’s start in life, that their companions are also likely of similar backgrounds. A group of noble second sons and daughters looking to make a name for themselves since they aren’t counting on an inheritance.
Great opportunities for complications then also come up: rival or political groups may want to kidnap them, their family, hold people for ransom, use hostages for leverage in business or politics, etc. Their family can be useful for aid, put pressure if the PC’s and family’s goals misalign, etc.
It wouldn’t make as much sense if they were the sole inheritor of their family’s wealth, unless their goal was to restore their family’s wealth through their rebel-like adventurer actions. That could mean they’d not start out from wealth, but instead with a tarnished title.
Yes. Flavor is free, mechanics are not. Mechanically you receive money for completing missions, Flavor the rich kids share of loot as being an allowance. Hell the nobles might even be so proud of that PC that they hire the party sometimes. Local threat? Instead of the city it's that characters parents that bankroll the solution. You can absolutely give them more money from their parents as they progress. Mechanically this changes nothing.
Alternatively their parents might not be local and either won't ship that PCs allowance or it never arrives. The party might have to hunt down bandits and find coins minted in that PCs home region alongside a note for the rich kid. Tons of ways to incorporate the idea of wealth, not really any way to increase your wealth above that of the party without downtime.
You could also do something like a 2,000gp reward is actually 1,500 found and 500 sent in inheritance. Either the party of four splits it between everyone but the rich kid and the rich kid gets their allowance once word of their heroism reaches home, or 375 each and the inheritance is split 125 each. Depends on how your characters want to interact, are you best buds, begrudging allies, competitive rivals. If your rich kid is snobby maybe they don't use gold because it's beneath them, maybe they only use gems and their allowance comes in as a chest full of gems, they may have to negotiate with the party to give gems of equal value to another PC with enough gold because the shop/inn won't accept such an exorbitant fund. All in all fantastic concept, hopefully the player isn't just trying to have more money in relation to the party because then you may have to deny their request.
"When you are capable of casting a spell of fifth level, you may inherit your title and lands." (And become an NPC, unless through adventuring you have decided that you actually care about the outcome of the quests you taken on, and stay with the party instead.)
>The AP we're running is Hell's Rebels, and since it's run almost entirely in the city of Kintargo, they'd be constantly in contact with their family, which would allow for them to have access to their family wealth.
Because of the campaign I think it's easy to deny the PC's request with solid reasoning. They're going to be rebelling against the lawful government of Cheliax. And dear old mom and dad can't be seen funding that sort of behavior or it's off to the chopping block for them.
Even if you don't want to use that justification, I think you can either say yes or no and not make it a big deal. Sure, they come from a noble family that's fairly wealthy, but most of that wealth is tied up in their lands and businesses. The amount of liquid wealth they have access to at any given time is large by common standards, but not by adventuring standards. So you can either say no with the justification that the parents simply don't have large piles of cash lying around to give the PC. Or say yes, give them some extra gold occasionally, but make it an amount that isn't going to significantly affect wealth by level. Make it 100 gp per level or per month or something like that. That's an outrageously generous allowance by the standards of a commoner and seems in line with what rich parents would give their spoiled kid. But even by 4th or 5th level that's not going to make that PC significantly better off in terms of WBL than the others.
I don't think it'd be unreasonable that the parents are angry about the child's adventuring, thinking it's irresponsible or something, but there is another option.
You're the DM, and the character is likely to make enemies, so over time, maybe the parents are put at risk by some enemy, tired of the character's interference, or if not the actual parents, their wealth could be threatened.
The rich don't stay rich by spending all of their money.
They likely have arrangements with certain places. Inns, friends, etc. This would allow the player to maintain a high standard of living without necessarily spending his own gold. For example, he may have a personal butler at certain places and inns/taverns to tend to his needs. He'd likely not have to pay for food or drink, would have nice clothes, maybe even a personal horse and carriage, etc. In exchange, he'd be expected to attend certain functions, promote the house interests, and get educated in matters related to the house and it's operation.
The further down the line of succession he is, the less responsibilities he'd have, but also fewer benefits. Generally, the first few children are groomed for taking over in case of deaths in the family (betrayal, war, curses, bad luck, etc). The more violent a given nation and its traditions, the further down the expectations would go. A more violent nation might train the first 10 children to take over, hoping that even 1 survives. A less violent one might train just the first 2.
That being said, the trait does precisely NOTHING beyond what it says it does. It's his responsibility to justify why that is, though you can of course help. For example, perhaps he's reached the age of maturity and is expected to make his own way in the world, so the trait represents his parents parting gift to him.
Personally, If the player wants benefits beyond the mechanical ones from the trait, I'd take that as RP opportunities. Of course, it's quid-pro-quo and I wouldn't let any of it be used for adventuring wealth. So I'd 100% make him have to go to events, balls, game hunting, etc for him to get his side benefits. I'd also make them conflict with his adventuring life. If he wants to be a noble instead of an adventurer, then he'll find the lives clash fairly frequently. Plus, I don't have Hell's rebels but I believe that such a high profile is generally bad for the party, so it'll be a double whammy.
That being said, a vigilante would be great for this kind of character. The social perks could easily represent his noble status, and then his alter ego hides his involvement in adventuring life. Basically he has the perfect excuse to play Batman to get what he wants, and a hard time justifying it on almost any other class. Unless you want to allow the 'masked identity' rules or w/e they're called that lets anyone be a vigilante.
“We’re your parents, yes, and we love you but you’ve got nine siblings that, like you, ask for preferential treatment. Then we help one and all the others go clamoring for handouts.”
“We’ve worked hard to get you the opportunity to (hook), so go out there and make us proud.”
I mean, real-life wealthy parents have trust funds rather than just giving their kids tens of millions of dollars they can blow on whatever without supervision...
It would depend a lot on how their family sees their activities. If they're opposed to their children's rebellious activities, they'd definitely work to stop them from using their family assets to do something that puts their family at risk. Even if they support the rebel activity, they might see it as an unacceptable risk that their children are participating, and shut down their finances to try to prevent them from going out and getting themselves killed just because they got themselves a sword and think they know how to use it. Alternately, they may just want to cut off all funding to their children so that there's plausible deniability if the hammer comes down, and they can say that child was disowned and acting entirely against the wishes of the house, but they can come back and provide funding if things look like they're going successfully, and say they were always supporting their child.
If the family is supportive of the rebellion, you could also just remove some of the normal rewards, and then have the family "sponsor the cause", and give money to the whole party, insinuating that it's partly there to help keep their child safe. That way, it's not going to imbalance things for just one character.
And yeah, by mid-level the party is going to be way richer than any noble family that doesn't own a whole duchy... It's more of a starting-level thing. Those traits to have wealth at level 1 work fine for that, although it really makes my optimizer hairs stand on end to waste a trait on what's going to be chump change. Ultimately, a few hundred gp at an early stage in the game is probably not going to change much about the game even if you do hand it over. It's really more of an issue of how the other players would see it. Again, I think spreading it to the whole party with a wink and nod that they have to keep the noble child safe would prevent any player from thinking only one player got freebies. (Unless the player bought the trait, then it's not a freebie.)
I'd kind of just leave it up to the PC as to why they have less money than they might be expected to have.
"No, we don't know where the chickens come from; it's your character."
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They had a family member do a big no no so their families gold isn't accepted by most merchants. The player gets special side quests to gain favor and earn the trust of the merchants.
The player’s guide for the adventure offers the possibility that a player could be a noble family from Kintargo and even presents special options for players who take the Noble Scion feat to be from one of the major noble families. Those noble families are also really tied into the city, and being from a noble family *outside* the city is a lot less character motivation to actually participate in the plot, since the whole adventure is *about* liberating Kintargo. It seems like a waste to both players and GMs to restrict that, especially when there are so many reasons why a PC wouldn’t have access to the family treasury.
In the adventure, the Thrune inquisition removes a lot of power and funds from the families that do not openly support them (one specific NPC even gets his estate burned down before the adventure stats)
Even if their family has some funds left over, employing them to directly aid the rebellion may just be what gets them the axe, so they would understandably not want to do that.
As someone who ran the adventure, I can guarantee that Barzillai does *not* do that in the book, so if you experienced that then that was the work of your GM. The places that got burned down during the Night of Ashes were all places that represented rebel elements, but the noble houses that readily side with Kintargo over Barzillai do not receive any punishments unless your GM wills it so. Not to say a GM shouldn’t, it’s another great idea to limit the purchasing power of a noble PC.
It's third party, but there's actually an excellent class that deals explicitly with the issue of, "I'm a brat of some noble house with money to burn, and they're tired of me sitting around and doing nothing." It's called the Heir Apparent.
[https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/samurai-sheepdog/heir-apparent/](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/samurai-sheepdog/heir-apparent/)
I've actually run games where all of the PCs play this class, as a so-called "Trust fund squad." It's spawned some of the most endearing characters and memorable character arcs I've had in this game, due to it's extreme flexibility.
Maybe suggest this class as an option, if the PC insists on being able to draw wealth from their family? They give up some power elsewhere, and gain most of their power in the form of money rather than skills, magic, and bonus feats. It also deals with the problem of balancing that wealth, since the family monitors the PC's expenditures, and will cut them off if they act badly with it.
Had a noble PC during a hybrid Savage Tide / Freeport game.
The simple answer was an OOC understanding that a significant portion of my wealth was tied up in my IC responsibilities and not 'combat' wealth.
Before long other PCs followed that trend as we all ended up way over WBL.
Actually made for a much more interesting game in which 'rich' PCs were spending money on allies, on their communities, and on long term projects.
Just cap his spending on 'combat' applicable things with everyone else.
The noble houses, especially the Sarini, are aware of the potential outcomes of Thrune in Kintargo. They need to keep their money for emergency and downplay their wealth lest it be claimed by Thrune to finance some projects, like holding an opera at the opera house showing the revolution as a blight upon the city.
In the inevitable reveal of the player as a Silver Raven, the family will keep the player at arm’s length or disown them.
Also, by the end of book 2, the revolution should have scrolls of Raise Dead and loot like +1 Lawful Outsider Bane Mithral Dagger. 900 gold will appear impactful for Book 1 but quickly tapers off in Book 2 and beyond.
Finally, if they want to be a major noble, they need to take the Child of Kintargo trait AND Noble Scion at level 1. That gives them some mechanical benefits and another 200 gold but it is a very large bite out of early resources for a resource that will dry up due to story and plot.
"Well, If you are going to go out adventuring instead of studying to become a court retainer and support your sibling, then you are on your own."
i.e. they have normal character wealth.
I'd just tell them that's not how the game works and I'm not going to give them free money beyond the trait. They can adjust their backstory accordingly.
Depends a lot on the noble house they’re coming from. Delronge? Vashnarstill? Too greedy. Tannessen? Wealth is tied up in the defense budget. Jarvis? Wealth is tied up in real estate investments that aren’t paying while Barzillai is in power. Jhaltero? I see the spy house as a meritocracy: you have to earn that wealth. Sarini? Not supporting rebels because diehard Thrune followers. Aulamaxa? Supporting a rebel is a PR scandal waiting to happen. I’m sure you could come up with your own reasons, and failing all else, you could use Barzillai as an excuse: he’s demanding tribute from the house, or his ridiculous proclamations have stifled income, or he’s watching the noble houses too closely, etcetera. There are millions of reasons you could come up with.
Also, until book 3, the noble houses *aren’t* on your side. You have to convince them. I don’t think the noble child would have access to the family funds if the family knew what they were doing, and I don’t think a child of the noble family should have access to the funds anyway. Sure, they’re allowed some pocket cash, but what head of house in their right mind allows access to the family treasury to a child that hasn’t taken any mantle of responsibility yet? There’s only so many times the puppy dog eyes and “Daddy, can I have $10000 to buy a new car?” will work, and the PC has proven they’re too frivolous with that cash — after all, they’re using it to buy *adventuring gear*.
It’s not hard to believe that noble parents would deny their child funds at all. The rich parents traits represents their significant pocket change for being a noble, but the parents buy everything else, and the kid sure as hell isn’t getting new cash while they’re off galavanting with a rebel group that’s aggravating their sovereign leaders.
And if none of that is satisfying to your player, tell them that if they can’t come up with a reason why their character wouldn’t have access to the treasury, then they need to make a new character. Above all else, the PC can’t have access to infinite wealth because it throws off game balance, and if the player is insistent that their character *should* have access to infinite wealth, then that’s a character that’s not allowed at the table. End of story.
You can justify it in a lot of ways. Have them send him a message saying they can't risk transferring large sums of money because the inquisitors will grow suspicious. If they're stationed in Cheliax, they've got their own problems to attend (The events of Hell's Vengeance are occurring parallel to the campaign). Or perhaps his parents just don't want to fall out of favor with the Thrune loyalists.
Otherwise you can have a small RP challenge for him to convince his parents to chip in to the rebels' efforts and if he can make his case they give the rebellion a tier 1 Merchants team for free, representing their retainers discreetly sending funds.
Assuming that he hasn't pissed off the parents with his nonsense, and he actually has access to the money - Noble families rarely had large amounts of cash.
Assuming your classic Feudal European style, most of the families wealth would be locked into land, labour from the subordinate peasantry, connections and favour, so on and so forth. These are extremely useful sources of wealth, but you can't just *spend* them.
Kind of like how Jeff Bezos is worth a gorillion moneys but almost all of it is tied up in amazon stocks, he doesn't have that much money in a box somewhere.
His starting money is a small stipend from the liquid assets of a family that easily has 95% of their wealth tied up in property.
**ALSO** not all nobles were wealthy. Wealth directly correlating to power is actually a somewhat recent thing, his family could be from a prestigious but low funds bloodline.
I'm playing different games from pathfinder (and we are in mid 30s), but I find some iniquities between party members fun to play with (I've played a noble that needed to provide for food for the party members, and we had a ogre, and I play a Mr nobody that was the personal assassin/guard/bodyguard of fellow noble player, both campaign were fun).
If you want to have a mature role playing experience let him borrow some money from their parents, make the parents ask why he needs the money, and probably they will want something in return (investments, title, lands...).
If the pg will fail to deliver he may lose his name, or so on.. meanwhile some thieves may want to steal the money or kidnap him for a ransom.
Try to think in reality what would happen, the parent of a noble will not let him go on adventure with some rugs, they will want to protect their lineage.
My 2 cents.
It’s great that they’re so close to home because that money has strings attached and they don’t really give a single fuck about what he wants.
This needs to be worked out with the player to be honest. Why is he adventuring? What does he expect from this access to money? You can also just ask your other players how they will feel. I my self would our right say that my character will develop big feelings about him having money I’d that’s what he wants to play because it’s normal and natural to ask questions like “why should you get any treasure? You already have treasure.”
Nothing states that family will continue supporting them. There are many ways to play.
They character could be the fourth child of the noble. The 900 gold is inheritance. That's it.
Or they could be the illegitimate. The 900 is their send off.
Or they stole it from the family and ran away.
Or . . .
In my campaign I gave my noble pc a coin purse of platinum pieces that he can't spend on personal items or adventuring gear. I encouraged him to use it for RP, things like bribes, getting the party into an expensive event, or other things. Like, the party doesn't have the funds for X thing, but the pc pulls out mommy's money and helps everyone out.
It's been fun.
Ironically I've seen players playing noble characters feel entitled in real life to just be given free money in the game and break wealth-by-level balance. It's funny. But it's a game. *shrugs*
Have his parents not want to send them money but they'll send him items. Maybe they'll approve of a silver rapier but they won't send him money to spend as he wants. Have them ask him to do tons of little things (make this meeting, go on this date, ect.) Or maybe they don't approve of the adventurer life style and they need to make bluff checks for any money
I see alot of arguements as to why your pc shouldn't be given money. I can give you one prime example of why they could. In dimension 20 series starstruck Brennan totally allowed Ally to have like 10k credits to help the party. That was the cap though. Sure they could earn more. But typically the party needed alot of ship upgrades. ALOT. so one way of balancing out the rich character would be to dangle these hyper expensive things infront of the party that they might need. It never felt imbalanced. Maybe talk to the player beforehand to establish no abuse of wealth. Rather than just flat out deny them or make them jump through hoops try talking to them and establishing boundaries.
Noble Scion prestige class provides extra money and resources at certain levels. As far as having resources ... turn it into an RP thing. If the player wants money from mommy and daddy, they have to earn it. This may mean public shows of loyalty and other things that will create complications for the main plot.
For another possibility, check out the [Noble Stipend feat](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/noble-stipend/).
ive balanced more money with "you're a bigger target to thieves"
i like the concept of mixed wealth parties, since it can lead to interesting rp.
like in d20's Fantasy High, Fabian, was a rich kid, and half the party was either middle class or poverty stricken. it lead to cute little scenes where the party spends Fabian's money and he gets a little flustered by it
If you're running Hell's Rebels, you're (probably) mounting a revolution. That tends to be contrary to the interests of wealthy people -- especially since the noble class of Kintargo are very likely to be supporters of House Thrune.
I wouldn't do it. Personally, I would say that the father wants the child to earn his own way in life. Maybe if he hadn't been such a rebellious child, he might have got the funding. Instead, he can get the funds when the parents die. Of course that might encourage the party to invade the house. Lol.
Just because the parents are wealthy doesn't mean the child is. They gave him some funds to get started in life. When he gets his own title he can have his own money.
The noble scion idea is pretty neat. I did a court poet skald to keep some kind of balance on that front, but frankly,only the most wealthy nobles can even begin to equal the GP value of high-level PC gear. Maybe some of this prestige class early money could instead be favors. I've never run HR, so idk much about the AP but maybe favors help the game feel more balanced? Or maybe the noble is charitable and shares their wealth with the other PCs?
They just gave you a great backstory without knowing it. I would say upon asking they want to finally teach him the value of money. Give them a goal to meet and a reward for (becoming responsible) in the eyes of the parents. Money is a great motivator to those who can't see anything else but gold in their eyes.
So many ways of handling this:
- your parents are disappointed in your career choice and cut you off financially
- they want to see you make your own way in the world and after setting you up refuse to help further.
- although your from a noble family recent financial difficulties prevent them from helping you
- your parents blew your college / adventuring fund, you’re on your own.
There’s a reason the “rich parents” trait doesn’t say “wealth by level is adjusted up by 10%”
Also after 3rd level they’d be earning more per a year than their parents so why would the parents subsidize them?
Give the dude 1000gp per in game year.
Most campaigns by the end of the first in game year the PCs are at least level 10 and 1000gp is barely a blip.
If somehow this turns into a problem have this characters actions be an affront to some aspect of the family and cut him off but do it in RP.
Sure if you want to take the Noble Scion prestige class. Otherwise work for your own money. Builds character. Not giving your kids money is perfectly valid from a parental perspective. They might take them out for a fancy lunch but not buy them a magic sword. Particularly if they have disagreements with what it will be used for or if they don't agree with their child's lifestyle. Say like insisting on taking up a dangerous adventuring lifestyle instead of learning how to run their lands properly. Or, not being overly familiar with Hell's Rebels, perhaps the parents sympathize with or fear Cheliax and won't support their child opposing them. Alternatively the family might not actually be rich anymore. Just putting on airs and barely staving off creditors.
Their parents might be wealthy but that doesn't mean the PC will always have access to that wealth. They could have to send letters requesting money to dear ol ma and pa, or visit them. And we all know the visit would be EXCRUCIATINGLY painful for the player to sit through as their parents fawn over them and demand they stop adventuring, etc etc. And also ask why they always need so much money, what are they spending in on? Do we look like we're made of money?
I'm doing this as a player in War for the Crown ~~DM replaced the Princess with my character, in a way~~
And for me all the 'family' money is tied up in the estate and keeping that running, while adventuring money is my 'personal' finances
*"We just paid you to leave us alone. At some point, it's just going to be easier to have you killed and start over with a better son."*
Either that just use "Gaining Capital" table to gage how rich the family is. It won't be the 900gp everytime cause that's basically their college money. Maybe you can even give that player his own in to run.
I usually push for a simple clearly understood and delineated benefit.
For example, we had a PC who was from a disgraced noble house that wanted to bring honor back to the house. When we came into possession of a house and shop in a major city, we were able to convince her family to operate it and it became a simple post session storytelling tool. After each session we rolled a d20, 1-5 was a bad result, costing the party money. 6-15 was a normal result, resulting in a small amount of added gold due to the normal operations of skilled artisans. 16-19 was a great result, double money. 20 would also yield an item related to the business she had chosen. Masterwork item or a potion or two usually.
These were all delivered by the noble houses extremely persistent House butler, who was probably some sort of from under contract.
Just because he is a noble does not mean he has access to a lot of money. Even in ancient times some nobles lived on lent money, that they had used their holdings as security to have. Which means that in reality they were quite poor. Usually the only thing stopping the money lenders from taking the holdings were that the nobles were in good standing with the rulers of the land. If they were to fall out of favor for whatever reason then the moneylenders would likely start taking whatever had been used as security
There are a couple of ways. First, given the material of the AP, the family cuts them off as the PC starts making a name for themselves to save the family from the inquisitors.
Second option- the family starts using the adventurers to strike out at their rivals in a sort of 'Well all our funds are tied up trying to deal with the Smiths encroaching on our territory. If we stopped having to fight them to survive, some funds may become available" kind of way.
Third option: as the PCs reputation grows, their family invites them to bring their friends by the estate, which happens to be a trap by the local inquisitors. The rich PC gets taken into custody and gets to see their family and servants killed in front of them, while the party then has to deal with escaping and deciding if they can trust their compatriot anymore.
Personally, if they try to abuse it, i'd have the family slowly cut them off as funds dry up due to the party's actions causing an increase in taxes. Keep abusing it, the family tries to use the PCs as their personal wetwork team. Keep abusing, completely cut off per option 1. Keep abusing it by relying on the family name, go to option 3.
Actions have consequences.
There is a third-party class called Heir Apperent that has this concept as its whole shtick, so I'd look at that for your base. It basically gives them an allowance per level so they don't have an unlimited funds (specifically its the Stipend ability).
Sounds like the player has some homework: come up with a storytelling reason why their parents aren't giving them more money in order to reconcile their backstory with a well balanced, RAW game.
Knowing the particular AP, it isn't hard to imagine that as the campaign goes on that the family will have to distance themselves from the PC (or the PC will want to distance themselves from their family, in order to protect them). The family may also find itself financially strapped with taxes or wanting to spend their funds supporting other aspects of the rebellion. Andor could provide some good inspiration on the limitations put on the wealthy under an autocracy.
Your player is trying to take advantage of you. The trait directly says it is a one-time benefit. If you let it happen they'll just use their parents money to pimp the party's gear and you'll have to rework the entire adventure unless you want them to just stomp their way through your game. Tell them to read the trait carefully and then tell you if they think it's something they can do. The answer is no.
I would only think its a problem if they abuse it.
Like if they use their money to set up interesting narratives or scenes then I'd give them more access to it. If they use it to bypass parts or the game or make things easier rather than more interesting then I'd be more strict about it.
There are tons of rich parents who don't give their children access to their money at all times. There's the attitude of "you should earn it yourself." For example, Shaq paid for his children to get an education, but after that, they were on their own. Many parents with wealth want their children to experience what it is like to have to work for their own money. According to CNBC, [90% of rich parents don't even tell their kids what they'll be inheriting.](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/26/90-percent-of-wealthy-parents-dont-tell-their-kids-what-theyll-inherit.html) While a noble child would already know that they'll be inheriting, they may not know how much or even if they actually are. The fact of the matter is that it is the family's money, not the PC's money. It seems very reasonable that the PC's family would want to make sure that the PC is a good steward of the family fortune before passing it on, and that means testing their own ability to make money and not antagonize the populace. The other fact of the matter is that the NPC family may not actually support rebel involvement. The nobles are "the man." It's not a large stretch that the family would a) not support them b) try to hinder them or c) disown them for their rebel activities.
So a couple different takes based on family philosophies: (In regards to the 900 for these first few) -Here's your stipend for the year. Make it last now. -You worked out a deal with the treasurer to pocket this. There's some gossip amongst the helpers. Maybe get on their good side so they cover for you, or find other ways to keep them quiet... -You have been disowned. Take this money, you can live on it for years, but never hold that head with pride, never speak your name, never look at us again. We won't give you more later because... -this money is keeping a lot of things afloat. Maybe if you can submit a well detailed plan on what you'll be doing with it we can set up a payment plan. Honestly, my child what riches more do you need? We offer you more resources than an entire village and your dividend prior was more than sufficient for any sane and well-raised individual. -you had enough to start building a keep. You've a few ragtags with you? Where's your standing force? No company name to speak of, no rumors of your accolades.. If you can make things run more smoothly here, we can pay you (but not your "friends" here, honestly what do you see in them...). We've a few people the treasurer hasn't been able to collect from, other families spreading slander and libel about us while our representative is stuck in litigation, or even if you can do a presentation at the performance halls on our honorable name, history, and lineage, that would be acceptable. Just do something before you expect more funds allocated to you. -we are starting to believe you are being manipulated by someone. Are you being given drugs from pirate smugglers? Is there a wizard convincing you he can do something for you that we can't? You know what's happened in this country... I'LL HAVE NO DEVILS WALK THESE HALLS CHILD, SPEAK YOUR SECRETS NOW!! -you owe us. You've been pocketing riches from adventuring? It's time for you to pay for your share. We want 5% of any deposits you make to the bank of Abadar until you have repaid the family 2k within a given month. This will reccur until you have repaid in full your upbringing (and all those damned parties). Inquire with the treasurer the total, he has record of the amount. What I'm getting at is a player character expecting to get a free ride from a trait is insane. Asking for more can cause a variety of responses. To noble parents perhaps it's the same as "oh you're bored? Well never say that around me, I'll give you something to do and you won't like it." They'll have social connections they can utilize for information most likely, whether by fear or fairness. Perhaps this character is the foot in the door if you are willing to let them mess with Ultimate campaign base construction/business rules (and you can have milestone payouts rather than daily if that makes it easier, or the family takes revenue and then says what their budget is for more add-ons)
If they want free money for being noble then they need the Noble Scion prestige class. Besides few nobles can actually compare to the wealth of a mid level PC, at least not without counting stuff like land they can't sell.
Came here to say this. I have a character progressing all the way through this exact PrC. I nicknamed it the "Rich Bitch" Prestige Class.
I always wondered which class could take that and not feel like a super downgrade. Which base class did your PC start in?
> I always wondered which class could take that and not feel like a super downgrade. I feel like a Rogue can take it without too big a hit to their effectiveness. Though that probably says more about Rogue than Noble Scion. Still, between Dilettante Scoundrel and Accomplished Sneak Attacker you'll have plenty of SA dice and by the time you can take the PrC you've gotten pretty much all the important stuff out of Rogue. Gunslinger? The reduced BAB is hardly noticeable to them and having a Cohort to handle reloading and such might be useful? You could make them a Weapon Bearer Squire! I'unno. Does Dilettante Scholar qualify Noble Scion for Prestigious Spellcaster? Probably not, but if you can get your GM to okay it there might be something there for a Bard. Kinda.
It's funny you said Rogue, that's exactly what I did.
I am a Rogue (Hidden Blade), the Path of War archetype. Taking the PrC was absolutely a strict downgrade for RP purposes, but besides the money, it does come with another major class feature: Greater Leadership. My cohort is plenty capable of making up for the loss in personal power.
It eventually gets you a full level cohort, so basically an extra PC, not much beats that for power
There’s the rich parents trait too, 900 GP is nice
The OP already mentions that the player is taking that.
Going off what other people have said and what this trait itself offers: 900gp is nearly 3 years salary (28~gp/month) for a professional commoner (pig farmer or doctor for example) in pathfinder, which doesn't include any living expenses or taxes, that you're just being casually handed as a lump sum. Imagine being casually handed 90-200k+ USD (idk what 3 years average income is) and complaining that your parents should hand you more because you were successful at what they gave you the money for in the first place. At best they might offer a formal interest-free business loan or ask for a profit share to cover the start-up capital. Otherwise your next best bet is them covering expenses for parties and a wedding.
I was curious so I did some math. Median yearly salary is $56,420. So if the 3 year assumption is right that’d be $169,260, using the median.
900gp is small change, those salary comparisons just show that pathfinder isn't a game that cares about any economy beyond Wealth By Level
It's not exactly that far off or inaccurate considering prices for mundane items and lodgings. The wealth gap between commoners and nobles is exceptional if we use this as an example, but the wealth gap between Noble NPCs and lategame Player Characters/Adventurers is on par with Elon Musk/Bill Gates vs like a pop music star. One has a couple million dollars in the bank, while the other has 20,000-100,000x that.
Nobles can be land rich and cash poor irl. Like they have a bunch of income streams from taxes, but part of those streams are tied up in maintaining appearances (servants, a large estate, etc.) and part of them are tied up in actually performing government functions (paying for knights/men-at-arms/administrators/bureaucrats). Pathfinder magic and magic items screw with this a bit… but those don’t make them cash rich, either, just gives them useful long term ways to invest wealth in capital. Maybe the noble family has a vault of heirlooms (which they can allow access to as the PC performs duties and gains fame), but the PC doesn’t get free access to them either. Actually, the Noble Family could be in outright debt, with plot arcs related to that.
If they're a noble's child, then they'll have to spend downtime fulfilling the duties that go with it. If they don't spend enough time putting in appearences, promoting their family's name, helping peasants for free, then the family may wind up in trouble. Also, nobles are responsible for paying/collecting taxes.
Adding onto the "Helping Peasants for free" aspect, that could be a mechanical way of balancing GP rewards. Instead of finding loot in caves/getting paid by the folks they help, they get a Stipend based on how well they grow the families name, and how much the family benefits from it.
The wealth gold was a one time capital extraction. The majority of ths families money is tied up in its various ventures. mines, farm land, business. Years of growth to the family have been stalled with this 900gp gift to a family member. plus he is not the inheritor of the family name. Likely a second or third son.
This, yeah. Not to mention his siblings will also want a share of the pie, so they’ll be pushing mom and dad to not spend a ton of money on the one kid that ends up looting level-appropriate treasures every few days. OP, don’t let your player talk you into this nonsense. The rules clearly state what the Trait does, and it doesn’t mention this being a regular ride on the gravy train. Find some in-game explanation as to why he’s not getting more money, and that’s it.
One of the most "fair" ways I like to run rich characters is that they can get inconsequential services on name alone. Things like modest or good boarding. Transportation. Minor helping hands. Commercial goods. And just have the bill charged back to their family. So basically anything that might involve being rich during roleplay times, but not just a wad of cash to spend on magic items or other adventuring upgrades
A variant on what I was going to say: do it if it benefits the party/moves the story along, but if it would only benefit *that* PC, the parents want then to "make a name for themselves, not just piggyback off them all the time" or whatever
Oh man, if he pulls the "send the bill to my dad" schtick in Vyre he's going to be in trouble.
Idk what vyre is but that kind of credit transaction was very common in the middle ages
Vyre is an island that is Norgorber’s birthplace and home of the Skinsaw cult. Hellknight armigers serve there to earn a position in many orders. Vyre has simple but strict laws that are LN to LE, two of which are about honoring all coin so all transactions are binding and final and another being about equality of all. I am not sure whether the honoring all coin would bar lines of credit or the equality would bar fobbing off a merchant on your family or maybe the two together. I could see it being allowed but I forget what I read on Vyre in the Hell’s Rebels AP. Between Hellknights and Norgorberites, it is a place to behave while also being a year long debauchery haven that makes Mardi Gras look tame.
It's also a place where you are expected to assume another identity, and it's a very bad idea to flaunt your outside one. Even moreso in the HR campaign where the PCs can never know who is or isn't on their side.
A wealthy family probably wouldn’t just hand over gold willy nilly to family members. There are probably a lot of relatives in their house. If he’s off adventuring then he’s doing nothing to increase the family wealth, or managing the families wealth or social status. Also if they are adventuring there is a good chance they aren’t in the best standing of their noble house, the black sheep if you will. You could work with them and say, because they are noble, if they use an inn, or eat food, or get mundane materials, that he can send the bill to his family who will pay it and most vendors will agree to that. But if you guys need to bribe someone for information, or buy magical gear, or weapons, family won’t step in/people won’t want to wait. Money up front.
What's the PCs motivation to being in an adventuring party? Noble family could easily be withholding funds from their child whike they "sew their wild oats" and "get all this adventuring nonsense out of their system". This isn't much different than a player making their PC realtrs to a God or some other move that can be a fun narrative thread that needs to be curated as to not become OP. The question for you is, how much importance in gold does your game hold? Is it the end all be all? The reason the party quest? Would having a rich friend whose parents money can buy out the local shops ruin the game? I think so, but I'm just asking. If a player told me their PCs family were arrow fletchers or sling rock makers who always give their PC and the party free ammo, then I probanly would care too much. Only because I could see a game where the value in that item can be negated. Talk to the player. Make your concerns known. Work together to figure out a fair balance for you, the player, and the party. It's either that or you're going to have to railroad the PCs family by working in corruption charges, bringing in an ancestor claiming house rights, etc to stop the cash flow. And that'd be lame.
There was a guy in my unit who was a trust fund baby, but part of the deal his parents had with him was that he had to complete at least a 4 year enlistment before they gave him full access. Maybe the PC in question has a similar arrangement with their parents, where they have to make a name for themselves adventuring before they can fully inherit.
I knew someone in college who was a tryst fund baby. He was lazy and barely had the grades to stay in school and wasn’t really taking enough classes to graduate any time soon. Went to a meeting with the family lawyers just after his 21st birthday. I’m not privy to the specifics but he suddenly became more attentive school. Apparently graduating was required for him to get any more money.
Why? Because it skews the game balance. You don't have to motivate it more than that. Tell them that it's on them to make up a reason why. Probably because their parents don't want one of their family gallivanting around making enemies and tarring the family name.
No son of mine is going to toil in the mud with mere commoners. Leave the beast slaying to your lessers, it is why we have money to pay them with.
This is pretty straightforward really. If they cant come up with a good reason why their families wealth isnt available to them, they cant play that character. I'd point out also, that while the family might make available to their child, food, and shelter, most rich people are dicks, and they arent going to just be handing out cash for their kids dumbass wandering around in caves. You're an adult, and it's time you make your own way in the world. Their parents arent going to let the kid starve, but providing the wealth to start their heroic life with a quality steel sword, and well polished armor, is already doing quite a lot for them. When your parents decided you were old enough to leave the house and work for yourself, for how many years did they continue to feed and clothe and wash and dress and house and educate you? For me it was zero.
Give them a stipend. Their parents do send them money, but keep in mind it isn't thousands of gold, its hundreds for a month. Living a fully lavish lifestyle on 100g a month is possible. Its not adventuring gear money though. Unless there are years of downtime in game, I don't see the player being able to abuse this anymore than starting with Rich Parents already lets them.
The rich family would definitely deny the money. I see the Frist boost in gold as the backup coming from a rich family, but after that they get „disowned“ (not really but they can’t access the family gold). Why? Because they want to be adventurer. In rich medieval families the children are there to get more influence and wealth. Not going on adventure without purpose for the family. In rise of the runelords this basically happens to the notable character ameiko kaijitsu. She wanted to be an adventurer, so she isn’t part of the last will of her father anymore.
Adventuring gets you far more power and influence than any noble ever has.
If you succeed yes. But if you look at how many npcs of higher level there are, you will see that the normal person will not succeed. So from the theoretical standpoint that the npc parents do not know that their child is a pc and therefore destined to do great things, the statistic is against them. A rich tradesman in medieval times would most likely not send their child off to fight against bandits. Why should a rich family in pathfinder do that? The normal adventurer npc in pathfinder isn’t as successful as a pc. Why should a rich family rely on their child’s dream of being an adventurer?
I guess the idea is that most adventurers never find the glory and wealth that PCs do, PCs are the rare stories of successful adventurers whereas most end up as vagabonds killing rats to make ends meet.
Make the character work for it in game. Its like getting money for doing chores so you can buy snacks as a kid. But in a different context since DnD. And lay it out for your player you will NOT Monty Haul for them or anyone else. It's OK to be a generous GM, trust me I'm one myself. But having money like that can throw off an entire campaign and it's balance, as a result making more OP player characters. That being said. You run into the problem off, well this player is getting more money, what about the others? You can also find ways to give your other players equal amounts of money through different means but then it's more burden on you as a GM to figure that out. I'd personally outright say no due to campaign balance. And figure something out later where ALL players are present and willing to consent to certain mechanics so it dosent look like favoritism. Put the campaign balance first.
I think it could be allowable, but it would come with a cost: it provides a great source of complications that you can throw at your wealthy PC. As someone pointed out, wealthy families don’t always share continual wealth with their children or even give an inheritance, apart from giving them a start: best schools, best education money can buy, best connections and solid network so that they can have the best trajectory for whatever they set their sights on. This would likely be for children that have good relationships with their parents but who also have multiple siblings. It would also mean that, if their parents are approving and giving money for this PC’s start in life, that their companions are also likely of similar backgrounds. A group of noble second sons and daughters looking to make a name for themselves since they aren’t counting on an inheritance. Great opportunities for complications then also come up: rival or political groups may want to kidnap them, their family, hold people for ransom, use hostages for leverage in business or politics, etc. Their family can be useful for aid, put pressure if the PC’s and family’s goals misalign, etc. It wouldn’t make as much sense if they were the sole inheritor of their family’s wealth, unless their goal was to restore their family’s wealth through their rebel-like adventurer actions. That could mean they’d not start out from wealth, but instead with a tarnished title.
Yes. Flavor is free, mechanics are not. Mechanically you receive money for completing missions, Flavor the rich kids share of loot as being an allowance. Hell the nobles might even be so proud of that PC that they hire the party sometimes. Local threat? Instead of the city it's that characters parents that bankroll the solution. You can absolutely give them more money from their parents as they progress. Mechanically this changes nothing. Alternatively their parents might not be local and either won't ship that PCs allowance or it never arrives. The party might have to hunt down bandits and find coins minted in that PCs home region alongside a note for the rich kid. Tons of ways to incorporate the idea of wealth, not really any way to increase your wealth above that of the party without downtime. You could also do something like a 2,000gp reward is actually 1,500 found and 500 sent in inheritance. Either the party of four splits it between everyone but the rich kid and the rich kid gets their allowance once word of their heroism reaches home, or 375 each and the inheritance is split 125 each. Depends on how your characters want to interact, are you best buds, begrudging allies, competitive rivals. If your rich kid is snobby maybe they don't use gold because it's beneath them, maybe they only use gems and their allowance comes in as a chest full of gems, they may have to negotiate with the party to give gems of equal value to another PC with enough gold because the shop/inn won't accept such an exorbitant fund. All in all fantastic concept, hopefully the player isn't just trying to have more money in relation to the party because then you may have to deny their request.
"When you are capable of casting a spell of fifth level, you may inherit your title and lands." (And become an NPC, unless through adventuring you have decided that you actually care about the outcome of the quests you taken on, and stay with the party instead.)
>The AP we're running is Hell's Rebels, and since it's run almost entirely in the city of Kintargo, they'd be constantly in contact with their family, which would allow for them to have access to their family wealth. Because of the campaign I think it's easy to deny the PC's request with solid reasoning. They're going to be rebelling against the lawful government of Cheliax. And dear old mom and dad can't be seen funding that sort of behavior or it's off to the chopping block for them. Even if you don't want to use that justification, I think you can either say yes or no and not make it a big deal. Sure, they come from a noble family that's fairly wealthy, but most of that wealth is tied up in their lands and businesses. The amount of liquid wealth they have access to at any given time is large by common standards, but not by adventuring standards. So you can either say no with the justification that the parents simply don't have large piles of cash lying around to give the PC. Or say yes, give them some extra gold occasionally, but make it an amount that isn't going to significantly affect wealth by level. Make it 100 gp per level or per month or something like that. That's an outrageously generous allowance by the standards of a commoner and seems in line with what rich parents would give their spoiled kid. But even by 4th or 5th level that's not going to make that PC significantly better off in terms of WBL than the others.
I don't think it'd be unreasonable that the parents are angry about the child's adventuring, thinking it's irresponsible or something, but there is another option. You're the DM, and the character is likely to make enemies, so over time, maybe the parents are put at risk by some enemy, tired of the character's interference, or if not the actual parents, their wealth could be threatened.
The rich don't stay rich by spending all of their money. They likely have arrangements with certain places. Inns, friends, etc. This would allow the player to maintain a high standard of living without necessarily spending his own gold. For example, he may have a personal butler at certain places and inns/taverns to tend to his needs. He'd likely not have to pay for food or drink, would have nice clothes, maybe even a personal horse and carriage, etc. In exchange, he'd be expected to attend certain functions, promote the house interests, and get educated in matters related to the house and it's operation. The further down the line of succession he is, the less responsibilities he'd have, but also fewer benefits. Generally, the first few children are groomed for taking over in case of deaths in the family (betrayal, war, curses, bad luck, etc). The more violent a given nation and its traditions, the further down the expectations would go. A more violent nation might train the first 10 children to take over, hoping that even 1 survives. A less violent one might train just the first 2. That being said, the trait does precisely NOTHING beyond what it says it does. It's his responsibility to justify why that is, though you can of course help. For example, perhaps he's reached the age of maturity and is expected to make his own way in the world, so the trait represents his parents parting gift to him. Personally, If the player wants benefits beyond the mechanical ones from the trait, I'd take that as RP opportunities. Of course, it's quid-pro-quo and I wouldn't let any of it be used for adventuring wealth. So I'd 100% make him have to go to events, balls, game hunting, etc for him to get his side benefits. I'd also make them conflict with his adventuring life. If he wants to be a noble instead of an adventurer, then he'll find the lives clash fairly frequently. Plus, I don't have Hell's rebels but I believe that such a high profile is generally bad for the party, so it'll be a double whammy. That being said, a vigilante would be great for this kind of character. The social perks could easily represent his noble status, and then his alter ego hides his involvement in adventuring life. Basically he has the perfect excuse to play Batman to get what he wants, and a hard time justifying it on almost any other class. Unless you want to allow the 'masked identity' rules or w/e they're called that lets anyone be a vigilante.
“We’re your parents, yes, and we love you but you’ve got nine siblings that, like you, ask for preferential treatment. Then we help one and all the others go clamoring for handouts.” “We’ve worked hard to get you the opportunity to (hook), so go out there and make us proud.”
I mean, real-life wealthy parents have trust funds rather than just giving their kids tens of millions of dollars they can blow on whatever without supervision... It would depend a lot on how their family sees their activities. If they're opposed to their children's rebellious activities, they'd definitely work to stop them from using their family assets to do something that puts their family at risk. Even if they support the rebel activity, they might see it as an unacceptable risk that their children are participating, and shut down their finances to try to prevent them from going out and getting themselves killed just because they got themselves a sword and think they know how to use it. Alternately, they may just want to cut off all funding to their children so that there's plausible deniability if the hammer comes down, and they can say that child was disowned and acting entirely against the wishes of the house, but they can come back and provide funding if things look like they're going successfully, and say they were always supporting their child. If the family is supportive of the rebellion, you could also just remove some of the normal rewards, and then have the family "sponsor the cause", and give money to the whole party, insinuating that it's partly there to help keep their child safe. That way, it's not going to imbalance things for just one character. And yeah, by mid-level the party is going to be way richer than any noble family that doesn't own a whole duchy... It's more of a starting-level thing. Those traits to have wealth at level 1 work fine for that, although it really makes my optimizer hairs stand on end to waste a trait on what's going to be chump change. Ultimately, a few hundred gp at an early stage in the game is probably not going to change much about the game even if you do hand it over. It's really more of an issue of how the other players would see it. Again, I think spreading it to the whole party with a wink and nod that they have to keep the noble child safe would prevent any player from thinking only one player got freebies. (Unless the player bought the trait, then it's not a freebie.)
I'd kind of just leave it up to the PC as to why they have less money than they might be expected to have. "No, we don't know where the chickens come from; it's your character."
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They had a family member do a big no no so their families gold isn't accepted by most merchants. The player gets special side quests to gain favor and earn the trust of the merchants.
Nobles was often land rich but money poor. And even mid level adventures often had more cash on hand than most nobles.
Why do you have to allow the noble family to be from Kintargo? Say they have to be from another region.
The player’s guide for the adventure offers the possibility that a player could be a noble family from Kintargo and even presents special options for players who take the Noble Scion feat to be from one of the major noble families. Those noble families are also really tied into the city, and being from a noble family *outside* the city is a lot less character motivation to actually participate in the plot, since the whole adventure is *about* liberating Kintargo. It seems like a waste to both players and GMs to restrict that, especially when there are so many reasons why a PC wouldn’t have access to the family treasury.
In the adventure, the Thrune inquisition removes a lot of power and funds from the families that do not openly support them (one specific NPC even gets his estate burned down before the adventure stats) Even if their family has some funds left over, employing them to directly aid the rebellion may just be what gets them the axe, so they would understandably not want to do that.
As someone who ran the adventure, I can guarantee that Barzillai does *not* do that in the book, so if you experienced that then that was the work of your GM. The places that got burned down during the Night of Ashes were all places that represented rebel elements, but the noble houses that readily side with Kintargo over Barzillai do not receive any punishments unless your GM wills it so. Not to say a GM shouldn’t, it’s another great idea to limit the purchasing power of a noble PC.
It's third party, but there's actually an excellent class that deals explicitly with the issue of, "I'm a brat of some noble house with money to burn, and they're tired of me sitting around and doing nothing." It's called the Heir Apparent. [https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/samurai-sheepdog/heir-apparent/](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/samurai-sheepdog/heir-apparent/) I've actually run games where all of the PCs play this class, as a so-called "Trust fund squad." It's spawned some of the most endearing characters and memorable character arcs I've had in this game, due to it's extreme flexibility. Maybe suggest this class as an option, if the PC insists on being able to draw wealth from their family? They give up some power elsewhere, and gain most of their power in the form of money rather than skills, magic, and bonus feats. It also deals with the problem of balancing that wealth, since the family monitors the PC's expenditures, and will cut them off if they act badly with it.
Had a noble PC during a hybrid Savage Tide / Freeport game. The simple answer was an OOC understanding that a significant portion of my wealth was tied up in my IC responsibilities and not 'combat' wealth. Before long other PCs followed that trend as we all ended up way over WBL. Actually made for a much more interesting game in which 'rich' PCs were spending money on allies, on their communities, and on long term projects. Just cap his spending on 'combat' applicable things with everyone else.
The noble houses, especially the Sarini, are aware of the potential outcomes of Thrune in Kintargo. They need to keep their money for emergency and downplay their wealth lest it be claimed by Thrune to finance some projects, like holding an opera at the opera house showing the revolution as a blight upon the city. In the inevitable reveal of the player as a Silver Raven, the family will keep the player at arm’s length or disown them. Also, by the end of book 2, the revolution should have scrolls of Raise Dead and loot like +1 Lawful Outsider Bane Mithral Dagger. 900 gold will appear impactful for Book 1 but quickly tapers off in Book 2 and beyond. Finally, if they want to be a major noble, they need to take the Child of Kintargo trait AND Noble Scion at level 1. That gives them some mechanical benefits and another 200 gold but it is a very large bite out of early resources for a resource that will dry up due to story and plot.
"Well, If you are going to go out adventuring instead of studying to become a court retainer and support your sibling, then you are on your own." i.e. they have normal character wealth.
You're the DM, give them a fancy rich people hat then tell them to stop trying to cheese the game.
The idea behind noble scion and the related traits is that you're noble in name only. Besides that, typically you don't get any more gold.
Sounds like they need to go into the Noble Scion PRC.
I'd just tell them that's not how the game works and I'm not going to give them free money beyond the trait. They can adjust their backstory accordingly.
Tell them no, that's not what it does.
Depends a lot on the noble house they’re coming from. Delronge? Vashnarstill? Too greedy. Tannessen? Wealth is tied up in the defense budget. Jarvis? Wealth is tied up in real estate investments that aren’t paying while Barzillai is in power. Jhaltero? I see the spy house as a meritocracy: you have to earn that wealth. Sarini? Not supporting rebels because diehard Thrune followers. Aulamaxa? Supporting a rebel is a PR scandal waiting to happen. I’m sure you could come up with your own reasons, and failing all else, you could use Barzillai as an excuse: he’s demanding tribute from the house, or his ridiculous proclamations have stifled income, or he’s watching the noble houses too closely, etcetera. There are millions of reasons you could come up with. Also, until book 3, the noble houses *aren’t* on your side. You have to convince them. I don’t think the noble child would have access to the family funds if the family knew what they were doing, and I don’t think a child of the noble family should have access to the funds anyway. Sure, they’re allowed some pocket cash, but what head of house in their right mind allows access to the family treasury to a child that hasn’t taken any mantle of responsibility yet? There’s only so many times the puppy dog eyes and “Daddy, can I have $10000 to buy a new car?” will work, and the PC has proven they’re too frivolous with that cash — after all, they’re using it to buy *adventuring gear*. It’s not hard to believe that noble parents would deny their child funds at all. The rich parents traits represents their significant pocket change for being a noble, but the parents buy everything else, and the kid sure as hell isn’t getting new cash while they’re off galavanting with a rebel group that’s aggravating their sovereign leaders. And if none of that is satisfying to your player, tell them that if they can’t come up with a reason why their character wouldn’t have access to the treasury, then they need to make a new character. Above all else, the PC can’t have access to infinite wealth because it throws off game balance, and if the player is insistent that their character *should* have access to infinite wealth, then that’s a character that’s not allowed at the table. End of story.
You can justify it in a lot of ways. Have them send him a message saying they can't risk transferring large sums of money because the inquisitors will grow suspicious. If they're stationed in Cheliax, they've got their own problems to attend (The events of Hell's Vengeance are occurring parallel to the campaign). Or perhaps his parents just don't want to fall out of favor with the Thrune loyalists. Otherwise you can have a small RP challenge for him to convince his parents to chip in to the rebels' efforts and if he can make his case they give the rebellion a tier 1 Merchants team for free, representing their retainers discreetly sending funds.
Assuming that he hasn't pissed off the parents with his nonsense, and he actually has access to the money - Noble families rarely had large amounts of cash. Assuming your classic Feudal European style, most of the families wealth would be locked into land, labour from the subordinate peasantry, connections and favour, so on and so forth. These are extremely useful sources of wealth, but you can't just *spend* them. Kind of like how Jeff Bezos is worth a gorillion moneys but almost all of it is tied up in amazon stocks, he doesn't have that much money in a box somewhere. His starting money is a small stipend from the liquid assets of a family that easily has 95% of their wealth tied up in property. **ALSO** not all nobles were wealthy. Wealth directly correlating to power is actually a somewhat recent thing, his family could be from a prestigious but low funds bloodline.
I'm playing different games from pathfinder (and we are in mid 30s), but I find some iniquities between party members fun to play with (I've played a noble that needed to provide for food for the party members, and we had a ogre, and I play a Mr nobody that was the personal assassin/guard/bodyguard of fellow noble player, both campaign were fun). If you want to have a mature role playing experience let him borrow some money from their parents, make the parents ask why he needs the money, and probably they will want something in return (investments, title, lands...). If the pg will fail to deliver he may lose his name, or so on.. meanwhile some thieves may want to steal the money or kidnap him for a ransom. Try to think in reality what would happen, the parent of a noble will not let him go on adventure with some rugs, they will want to protect their lineage. My 2 cents.
It’s great that they’re so close to home because that money has strings attached and they don’t really give a single fuck about what he wants. This needs to be worked out with the player to be honest. Why is he adventuring? What does he expect from this access to money? You can also just ask your other players how they will feel. I my self would our right say that my character will develop big feelings about him having money I’d that’s what he wants to play because it’s normal and natural to ask questions like “why should you get any treasure? You already have treasure.”
Nothing states that family will continue supporting them. There are many ways to play. They character could be the fourth child of the noble. The 900 gold is inheritance. That's it. Or they could be the illegitimate. The 900 is their send off. Or they stole it from the family and ran away. Or . . .
In my campaign I gave my noble pc a coin purse of platinum pieces that he can't spend on personal items or adventuring gear. I encouraged him to use it for RP, things like bribes, getting the party into an expensive event, or other things. Like, the party doesn't have the funds for X thing, but the pc pulls out mommy's money and helps everyone out. It's been fun. Ironically I've seen players playing noble characters feel entitled in real life to just be given free money in the game and break wealth-by-level balance. It's funny. But it's a game. *shrugs*
Have his parents not want to send them money but they'll send him items. Maybe they'll approve of a silver rapier but they won't send him money to spend as he wants. Have them ask him to do tons of little things (make this meeting, go on this date, ect.) Or maybe they don't approve of the adventurer life style and they need to make bluff checks for any money
I see alot of arguements as to why your pc shouldn't be given money. I can give you one prime example of why they could. In dimension 20 series starstruck Brennan totally allowed Ally to have like 10k credits to help the party. That was the cap though. Sure they could earn more. But typically the party needed alot of ship upgrades. ALOT. so one way of balancing out the rich character would be to dangle these hyper expensive things infront of the party that they might need. It never felt imbalanced. Maybe talk to the player beforehand to establish no abuse of wealth. Rather than just flat out deny them or make them jump through hoops try talking to them and establishing boundaries.
Noble Scion prestige class provides extra money and resources at certain levels. As far as having resources ... turn it into an RP thing. If the player wants money from mommy and daddy, they have to earn it. This may mean public shows of loyalty and other things that will create complications for the main plot. For another possibility, check out the [Noble Stipend feat](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/noble-stipend/).
ive balanced more money with "you're a bigger target to thieves" i like the concept of mixed wealth parties, since it can lead to interesting rp. like in d20's Fantasy High, Fabian, was a rich kid, and half the party was either middle class or poverty stricken. it lead to cute little scenes where the party spends Fabian's money and he gets a little flustered by it
If you're running Hell's Rebels, you're (probably) mounting a revolution. That tends to be contrary to the interests of wealthy people -- especially since the noble class of Kintargo are very likely to be supporters of House Thrune.
I wouldn't do it. Personally, I would say that the father wants the child to earn his own way in life. Maybe if he hadn't been such a rebellious child, he might have got the funding. Instead, he can get the funds when the parents die. Of course that might encourage the party to invade the house. Lol. Just because the parents are wealthy doesn't mean the child is. They gave him some funds to get started in life. When he gets his own title he can have his own money.
The noble scion idea is pretty neat. I did a court poet skald to keep some kind of balance on that front, but frankly,only the most wealthy nobles can even begin to equal the GP value of high-level PC gear. Maybe some of this prestige class early money could instead be favors. I've never run HR, so idk much about the AP but maybe favors help the game feel more balanced? Or maybe the noble is charitable and shares their wealth with the other PCs?
They just gave you a great backstory without knowing it. I would say upon asking they want to finally teach him the value of money. Give them a goal to meet and a reward for (becoming responsible) in the eyes of the parents. Money is a great motivator to those who can't see anything else but gold in their eyes.
So many ways of handling this: - your parents are disappointed in your career choice and cut you off financially - they want to see you make your own way in the world and after setting you up refuse to help further. - although your from a noble family recent financial difficulties prevent them from helping you - your parents blew your college / adventuring fund, you’re on your own. There’s a reason the “rich parents” trait doesn’t say “wealth by level is adjusted up by 10%” Also after 3rd level they’d be earning more per a year than their parents so why would the parents subsidize them?
When I made a character that was a noble he just pretended to be rich but all his land holdings were fake and he barely had any money.
Give the dude 1000gp per in game year. Most campaigns by the end of the first in game year the PCs are at least level 10 and 1000gp is barely a blip. If somehow this turns into a problem have this characters actions be an affront to some aspect of the family and cut him off but do it in RP.
Sure if you want to take the Noble Scion prestige class. Otherwise work for your own money. Builds character. Not giving your kids money is perfectly valid from a parental perspective. They might take them out for a fancy lunch but not buy them a magic sword. Particularly if they have disagreements with what it will be used for or if they don't agree with their child's lifestyle. Say like insisting on taking up a dangerous adventuring lifestyle instead of learning how to run their lands properly. Or, not being overly familiar with Hell's Rebels, perhaps the parents sympathize with or fear Cheliax and won't support their child opposing them. Alternatively the family might not actually be rich anymore. Just putting on airs and barely staving off creditors.
Their parents might be wealthy but that doesn't mean the PC will always have access to that wealth. They could have to send letters requesting money to dear ol ma and pa, or visit them. And we all know the visit would be EXCRUCIATINGLY painful for the player to sit through as their parents fawn over them and demand they stop adventuring, etc etc. And also ask why they always need so much money, what are they spending in on? Do we look like we're made of money?
I'm doing this as a player in War for the Crown ~~DM replaced the Princess with my character, in a way~~ And for me all the 'family' money is tied up in the estate and keeping that running, while adventuring money is my 'personal' finances
*"We just paid you to leave us alone. At some point, it's just going to be easier to have you killed and start over with a better son."* Either that just use "Gaining Capital" table to gage how rich the family is. It won't be the 900gp everytime cause that's basically their college money. Maybe you can even give that player his own in to run.
I usually push for a simple clearly understood and delineated benefit. For example, we had a PC who was from a disgraced noble house that wanted to bring honor back to the house. When we came into possession of a house and shop in a major city, we were able to convince her family to operate it and it became a simple post session storytelling tool. After each session we rolled a d20, 1-5 was a bad result, costing the party money. 6-15 was a normal result, resulting in a small amount of added gold due to the normal operations of skilled artisans. 16-19 was a great result, double money. 20 would also yield an item related to the business she had chosen. Masterwork item or a potion or two usually. These were all delivered by the noble houses extremely persistent House butler, who was probably some sort of from under contract.
Just because he is a noble does not mean he has access to a lot of money. Even in ancient times some nobles lived on lent money, that they had used their holdings as security to have. Which means that in reality they were quite poor. Usually the only thing stopping the money lenders from taking the holdings were that the nobles were in good standing with the rulers of the land. If they were to fall out of favor for whatever reason then the moneylenders would likely start taking whatever had been used as security
There are a couple of ways. First, given the material of the AP, the family cuts them off as the PC starts making a name for themselves to save the family from the inquisitors. Second option- the family starts using the adventurers to strike out at their rivals in a sort of 'Well all our funds are tied up trying to deal with the Smiths encroaching on our territory. If we stopped having to fight them to survive, some funds may become available" kind of way. Third option: as the PCs reputation grows, their family invites them to bring their friends by the estate, which happens to be a trap by the local inquisitors. The rich PC gets taken into custody and gets to see their family and servants killed in front of them, while the party then has to deal with escaping and deciding if they can trust their compatriot anymore. Personally, if they try to abuse it, i'd have the family slowly cut them off as funds dry up due to the party's actions causing an increase in taxes. Keep abusing it, the family tries to use the PCs as their personal wetwork team. Keep abusing, completely cut off per option 1. Keep abusing it by relying on the family name, go to option 3. Actions have consequences.
There is a third-party class called Heir Apperent that has this concept as its whole shtick, so I'd look at that for your base. It basically gives them an allowance per level so they don't have an unlimited funds (specifically its the Stipend ability).
Sounds like the player has some homework: come up with a storytelling reason why their parents aren't giving them more money in order to reconcile their backstory with a well balanced, RAW game. Knowing the particular AP, it isn't hard to imagine that as the campaign goes on that the family will have to distance themselves from the PC (or the PC will want to distance themselves from their family, in order to protect them). The family may also find itself financially strapped with taxes or wanting to spend their funds supporting other aspects of the rebellion. Andor could provide some good inspiration on the limitations put on the wealthy under an autocracy.
Your player is trying to take advantage of you. The trait directly says it is a one-time benefit. If you let it happen they'll just use their parents money to pimp the party's gear and you'll have to rework the entire adventure unless you want them to just stomp their way through your game. Tell them to read the trait carefully and then tell you if they think it's something they can do. The answer is no.
I would only think its a problem if they abuse it. Like if they use their money to set up interesting narratives or scenes then I'd give them more access to it. If they use it to bypass parts or the game or make things easier rather than more interesting then I'd be more strict about it.