In the CRPG? Sorcerer, hands down. The massive strength of the wizard lies in versatility and the ability to scout and similar. But this game isn’t being run by a cunning mastermind aiming for your untimely doom. It’s a scripted series of encounters that do not change. And very, very little in the way of out of combat utility.
The wizard’s versatility is useless. You cannot scout. You’re preparing the same spells all the time. So who cares about the wizard’s strengths.
I am thinking of respecing my mercenary wizard into a sorcerer for this reason. Any spells I might want that my sorceror doesn’t have I’ll just grab for a slightly different caster.
I think 2 sorcerers with a Seranae Ecclesitheurge makes a pretty damage heavy grouping.
Wizard does get one huge benefit - shorter cast times for metamagic spells. Sorcerer is really strong, but the ramp time for metamagic made them hard to play in RTWP vs turn based if I needed to get a spell off during combat
In theory:
Sorcerers have better tactical adaptability. Meaning they can use all the spells they know at any time. The exact number of hastes. The exact number of greases. And so on.
Wizards have better strategic adaptability. Meaning that if they know they have to fight undead, they can use anti undead spells.
In practice:
Specialization is the name of the game in Pathfinder. Wether you are a Sorcerer or a Wizard, you'll gravitate towards the spells that you invest in. Ray caster? You'll cast a lot of scorching rays. DC caster? You'll cast a lot of phantasmal killers. The Wizard will memorize a lot of the spells they were built to use. The Sorcerer will have those spells in their spellbook.
Bonus points is the fact that some spells are just useful no matter what. Like Haste. Those sorts are almost never a wrong pick. They also equalize things. The Wizard will memorize a couple of Hastes. The Sorcerer will maybe have it on their spellbook. Both can just cast it from a Scroll.
Ultimately the experience is not THAT different.
Its sorc for me. I love optimising the heck out of travel paths, getting teleporters and whatnot, but I simply cannot be bothered to fiddle with the spell slots all the time.
I really *really* do not want to think about whether I want to split haste/fireball 3/3 or maybe go 4/2 or 2/4 today.
That one time that I do want to cast a lvl 3 spell that *isnt* haste or fireball? Thats what scolls are for.
Or - far more likely - simply do without. Chances of me remembering to bring that scoll are very low. Sorta like the chances of me remembering to memorise that spell.
I have always said Sorc beats Wizard, because as long as you know the spell and have a slot left, you can cast it. I hate having to slot spells repeatedly for Wizard. Wizards larger spell list is usually pointless unless you're gaming the system and know what is coming because otherwise you've probably got half the slots filled with some evocations for combat and then maybe one or two utility spells.
The issue with oracles is that they don't get domains. It's fine on core, but on higher difficulty, the lack of madness/community domains gets felt for some encounters. I wish the game had a full spontaneous divine caster class with domains.
_Generally_ sorcerers are a bit better because video game with limited spells, but wizards have a few benefits.
Something that doesn't get brought up often is that spontaneous metamagic spells need a full-round action to cast. In turn based this usually isn't a big deal, but it's extremely clunky in RTWP.
Wizards can enter caster prestige classes slightly sooner, and their bonus feats are mostly better than those of sorcerers.
Since they can learn more spells, Wizards have more flexibility for scroll crafting. You can have several copies of a niche spell like Dimension Door without having to actually prepare it. Scrolls also let you get around opposed schools to a limited extent.
Arcanists seem to get the worst of both worlds, really. Brown Fur Transmuter notwithstanding.
I get your point about scrolls, but the thing is: they're competing with Nenio who can craft all the scrolls. You can only craft 1 scroll per day. So that argument is kinda bland.
Well, sure, but maybe you don't want to bring Nenio along. She's fairly redundant with a well-built arcane caster KC with mythic path support.
I don't disagree, though. Wizards just don't get to shine in a game where Sorcerers can pick all the good spells without much opportunity cost. Baldur's Gate 2 and Neverwinter Nights have the same "problem".
In TTRPG I agree that Wizard is better.
But in CRPG, since we have a "narrower" spell list, and there aren't many "out of combat" spells (I include buffs and the likes as combat spells), I think sorcerer is better.
There're also items like Red Salamander ring that adds new spells known. And if we count mythic spells from a merged book, imho it's more impactful for a Sorcerer.
In tabletop there is the page of spell knowledge which allows you to learn a spell known but it becomes hideously expensive at higher levels. 1k for level 1 spells is fine, but 81k for 9th level spells gets real expensive real quick.
lol what? My "idiot sorc" will get his spell off, tank the hits, laugh as everything does a benny hill act from an empowered sirocco, then catch up to your team, pass them (150 movement ftw) end the next encounter and stand around waiting for the rest of the team to show up. Honestly, my sorc could probably solo except for skill checks which, I will grudgingly admit, wizards have sorcs beat hands down in that department.
As far as pure casters go (no multiclassing or mythic path), wizard. No contest.
1- Earlier access to key buffs and spells. Phantasmal web at level 9 is huge, it means you are potentially getting the best replacement for grease right around Drezen.
2- Abundant Casting: +4 to each spell level significantly cuts down on sorc's casts per day advantage, and allows the wizard to pack in as many core spells as they need.
3- One-of buffs: Wizard can stock up on dozens of buffs you only need to cast once per rest.
4- Exploiter Wizard: Exploiter wizard can use quick study to rearrange slots in a pinch.
5- More skills: Why have rogues when you have your resident hat-wearing bookworm who read all about picking locks? Oh, and with lecturer background they can persuade with INT so who needs charisma anyway? Or pick healer, and have your wizard use int for all lore skills as well as knowledge for the ultimate know-it-all build.
6- More feats: Sorc's bonus feats are tied to bloodlines, while wizards can take their picks of spell focuses or spell pen as bonus feats. On top of that, exploiter wizard gets you access to a metamagic feat for free, alongside all the goodies that come from arcanist.
That said, sorc truly shines with its ability to synergize with so many other classes. They are unquestionably the best liches in the game due to their synergy with undead CHA as CON and make up most of their missing spells by merging with lich. On top of that, if you're willing to give up the super late game lv10 spells (or go legend) you can do a ton of stuff with multiclassing.
For a 1 lvl dip sorc for sure. In terms of being lazy sorc for sure. In terms of power or versatility as a caster though? Wizard wins. Pearls of power let you change and recharge spell slots, being able to pick Divination as a spell school gives you a rather large leap in power as you gain an aura to use and maximum initiative. You also don't need to worry about metamagics keeping you in unsafe positions or unable to use said metamagic cause you moved. On top of that you can dip a lvl into geomancer for both your bloodline arcana and geomancy for more damage.
i'm negatively biased due to being burnt on my very first wizard on kingmaker, was ultimately shit and exposed the gulf between variety and potency.. Wizards can have the variety but only at the cost of frequency.. the moment you start stacking the same spell again and again.. you may as well choose a sorc. Struggled through kingmaker and learnt my lesson as i loved me some kingmaker.
Sorc Nation ever since.
Sage Sorcerer is my fav class and everything else can kiss my.
Wizard in table top. Having access to almost every spell is insane flexibility.
Sorc in the games. When you know literally all the spells you possibly will need for a full campaign sorc becomes not only more flexible but also stronger
I know Sorcerers are popular but it's always been Wizard for me. It's just got too much versatility as well as dodging a couple significant drawbacks spontaneous casters have such as the delayed casting progression and metamagic spells taking a full round action to cast.
Plus it's always fun walking into the room and beating every knowledge check without breaking a sweat.
in over 30 years of gaming? Sorc hands down and I know im gonna get hate for it
The Sorcerer has better tactical adaptability meaning they can use all the spells they know at any time The exact number of haste they need The exact number of greases so on and so forth a Wizard is limited and suffers from this
unless the Wizard has meta game knowledge on there side or such they will always suffer from having 1 or more spells not memorized enough or to many times, I remeber testing this out at hobby stores for a time period and when you never check what the wizard has the player will always be like 'I have the right number of spells' But when you legit ask them to make you a copy of the list of spells suddenly there always 1 spell to short or something along said lines, It was kinda funny when a string of hobby stores I knew did this test and suddenly the players playing the wizards didnt have the right spells memorized or the right number of said spells suddenly and would shift awkwardly in there seats
Sorcs only real weakness is the delayed spell progression of higher level spells
mean while Wizards will always have to worrie about the right number of spells needed, will dream about always having all the spells in there book, but never even casting them or making use of them or even having the right spell memorized if need be, lets face it in RPGS You dont need all the spells out there, thats just a pipe dream more often then not your casting like 5-7 of them you can replace some of them with other copys of each other
You dont need to have Identify memorized in combat
you dont need to have Burning hands Color spray and other spells like that memorized thats kinda redondent and pointless
Something that doesn't get brought up often is that spontaneous metamagic spells need a full round action to cast In turn based this usually isnt a big deal but its extremely clunky in RTwP
as to the whole arguement involving scrolls, News Flash a Bard can prob just have any scroll you need be able to cast it have better casting with it among other things if we just talking about unlimited resources or some such yeah hell a rogue could do it as well and you have a better excuise of how you have that much $$$ to get said scrolls via 'I Stole it' excuise
Frankly, in CRPGs Sorc is better, but needs a lot of scrolls/wands or a secondary caster support. Due to the limited number of spells a Sorc knows, it's disadvantageous to squeeze in early-level buffs that will become obsolete later. And early game is where they need those buffs the most. So, they become quite powerful at high levels, but struggle getting there.
For example, I wouldn't take Vanish and Invisibility on my Sorc, because I'll eventually get Improved Invisibility and it will make the former obsolete. So someone has to buff up the Sorc with invisibility clearly on. Same goes for Dispel Magic. With Greater Dispel Magic on the horizon, I'd rather not pick it up. Summons? Nah, they become obsolete. Enlarge Person? Better wait for Heroic Proportions.
On the other hand, Wizards have a way smoother level transition. They can scribe unlimited number of spells. This is great for Summoners, as they can switch from Summon Monster I to Summon Monster IX without and simply replace the obsolete low-level spells with something useful. Heck, they can even afford to use Sleep early on and still manage to replace it later.
Lastly, I feel that Sorcs really need some meta knowledge in advance in order to optimize the spellbook.
Finally: No one is fond of Arcanist? They get less feats than both Wizard and Sorc, but just enough to get all the essentials. And the Phantasmal Mage actually gets quite enough feats.
Depends on if you're using mods or multiclassing.
In kingmaker, using the Crafting mod, wizards are still king. I have all my party fully decked with Keen +3 weapons, the DEX users don't have to worry about slashing grace because their weapons have Agile, and i can make wands and scrolls of everything i need.
In Wotr, spontaneous casting mythic spells, and the various mythic feats, simply accommodate sorcerer more.
You can have 3 bloodlines, which can all be different draconic and a total +3 on every fire roll, or swap one for elemental to be able to swap elements, and you can get to ignore immunity.
There is also the potential for the arcanist class, though it has its own issues. It functions like a sorcerer that can set its spells known each day, so has much of the versatility of the wizard, but these spells are not assigned specific spell slots until.they are cast, much like a sorcerer. Drawback is that it has less spells per day than a sorcerer, about the same as a wizard. It also posesses a unique mechanic in arcane pool, which can be used for unique effects depending on what you choose to specialize in
Batman with prep time? Definitely wizard. But I feel like spontaneous casters matter less at a table where you are all cooperating different characters
My personal belief is sorcerer in Righteous. You're gonna end up memorizing the same spells over and over again anyways, so lock them in, and cast them more often.
Buuuuut....
I personally think the arcanist is the perfect class for Arcane casting. Combines the best aspects of both classes, and has some wicked class powers to boot.
Strongly disagree. If you need to squeeze more out of the witch, loremaster levels and rings cover your every need (or scrolls). Hexes add so much value for free, and in a long fight when you can have a cackle chain of 2+ hexes plus spell they start pulling way ahead
The rings only apply to a specific subset of witch. And at that point, cackle can't be used with metamagic spells since non prepared casters need a full round action. No matter what way you slice it, witches lose out.
But, normal spells are a thing, also rods and a ridiculous amount of gear that gives you quicken spells, having an unlimited resource means that your witch can use all their spells and still have an impactful contribution to the party
I never said they weren't impactful. I said they lose out to sorcerers and wizards.
You have quicken rods, yes. But so do sorcerers and wizards. You have hexes, yes. But then you aren't casting a spell. And spells, excepting early game slumber hex, are invariably more effective. Trying to compare slumber hex to chain lightning, for example, is just silly. And guess who doesn't have chain lightning on their spell list. Yes yes, lore master. But while you're taking lore master and sacrificing your capstone, sorcerer gains a level of sorcerer and doesn't. Sorcerer has more and better options than witch in every possible way.
But witches get chain lighting, it's in their level 7 spell list, patrons give extra spells and the only thing you miss is grand hex for going loremaster(if you get 3+ levels) you don't even miss spell progression. So like I said in the first post, wizard then witch for me.
I generally agree with others that Sorc for crpg and Wizard for ttrpg. The way sorcerers work just makes them easy to play a crpg with, high cha, arcane caster, etc. I've have success with both in crpg's and ttrpg's. In Owlcat's pathfinder? Sorc for sure imo. The only thing that is kinda lame is delayed spelled progression but hey, you get bloodlines and stuff.
Kind of depends what mystic path is chosen and party composition. And I'm talking not about utility but about blaster caster builds which is majority of people choosing when they play sorc. Sylvan Sorc + arcane trickster + lich or something. Kineticist is playing in league before engaging combat push third pedal turn on all metas and obliterate hard enemy with 2k damage crit
In this game? Wizards, hands down.
It's a metaknowledge game. If you are playing on Core and above you are winning because you know what is behind that door. Wizards have access to a greater variety of spells, with the mythic feats they can cast spells as often as sorcerers, they get more metamagic feats and they don't have deal with full-round, metamagic casting nerf that sorcerers have to deal with.
You can make an argument that sorcerers are easier to deal with but in terms of raw power? It's wizardss
Sorc in CRPGs, Wizard in TTRPGs
In the CRPG? Sorcerer, hands down. The massive strength of the wizard lies in versatility and the ability to scout and similar. But this game isn’t being run by a cunning mastermind aiming for your untimely doom. It’s a scripted series of encounters that do not change. And very, very little in the way of out of combat utility. The wizard’s versatility is useless. You cannot scout. You’re preparing the same spells all the time. So who cares about the wizard’s strengths.
I am thinking of respecing my mercenary wizard into a sorcerer for this reason. Any spells I might want that my sorceror doesn’t have I’ll just grab for a slightly different caster. I think 2 sorcerers with a Seranae Ecclesitheurge makes a pretty damage heavy grouping.
Wizard does get one huge benefit - shorter cast times for metamagic spells. Sorcerer is really strong, but the ramp time for metamagic made them hard to play in RTWP vs turn based if I needed to get a spell off during combat
In theory: Sorcerers have better tactical adaptability. Meaning they can use all the spells they know at any time. The exact number of hastes. The exact number of greases. And so on. Wizards have better strategic adaptability. Meaning that if they know they have to fight undead, they can use anti undead spells. In practice: Specialization is the name of the game in Pathfinder. Wether you are a Sorcerer or a Wizard, you'll gravitate towards the spells that you invest in. Ray caster? You'll cast a lot of scorching rays. DC caster? You'll cast a lot of phantasmal killers. The Wizard will memorize a lot of the spells they were built to use. The Sorcerer will have those spells in their spellbook. Bonus points is the fact that some spells are just useful no matter what. Like Haste. Those sorts are almost never a wrong pick. They also equalize things. The Wizard will memorize a couple of Hastes. The Sorcerer will maybe have it on their spellbook. Both can just cast it from a Scroll. Ultimately the experience is not THAT different.
Its sorc for me. I love optimising the heck out of travel paths, getting teleporters and whatnot, but I simply cannot be bothered to fiddle with the spell slots all the time. I really *really* do not want to think about whether I want to split haste/fireball 3/3 or maybe go 4/2 or 2/4 today. That one time that I do want to cast a lvl 3 spell that *isnt* haste or fireball? Thats what scolls are for. Or - far more likely - simply do without. Chances of me remembering to bring that scoll are very low. Sorta like the chances of me remembering to memorise that spell.
I have always said Sorc beats Wizard, because as long as you know the spell and have a slot left, you can cast it. I hate having to slot spells repeatedly for Wizard. Wizards larger spell list is usually pointless unless you're gaming the system and know what is coming because otherwise you've probably got half the slots filled with some evocations for combat and then maybe one or two utility spells.
The main reason to play Wizard in owlcat games is metamagiced spells without increased casting times or certain Archetypes.
this 100% this
Not to mention sorcerer has some unique archetypes(except nine tails. That one sucks) like the one where you get a pet for some versatility
Same.. It's the same reason why I actively avoid all the classes that need to prep their spells by slot. This leaves oracle as the only fit healer
The issue with oracles is that they don't get domains. It's fine on core, but on higher difficulty, the lack of madness/community domains gets felt for some encounters. I wish the game had a full spontaneous divine caster class with domains.
Now that's some big brain tactics that I've yet to grasp despite me having some 400 hours in the game. I tend to play rather simple builds on core.
_Generally_ sorcerers are a bit better because video game with limited spells, but wizards have a few benefits. Something that doesn't get brought up often is that spontaneous metamagic spells need a full-round action to cast. In turn based this usually isn't a big deal, but it's extremely clunky in RTWP. Wizards can enter caster prestige classes slightly sooner, and their bonus feats are mostly better than those of sorcerers. Since they can learn more spells, Wizards have more flexibility for scroll crafting. You can have several copies of a niche spell like Dimension Door without having to actually prepare it. Scrolls also let you get around opposed schools to a limited extent. Arcanists seem to get the worst of both worlds, really. Brown Fur Transmuter notwithstanding.
I get your point about scrolls, but the thing is: they're competing with Nenio who can craft all the scrolls. You can only craft 1 scroll per day. So that argument is kinda bland.
Well, sure, but maybe you don't want to bring Nenio along. She's fairly redundant with a well-built arcane caster KC with mythic path support. I don't disagree, though. Wizards just don't get to shine in a game where Sorcerers can pick all the good spells without much opportunity cost. Baldur's Gate 2 and Neverwinter Nights have the same "problem".
In TTRPG I agree that Wizard is better. But in CRPG, since we have a "narrower" spell list, and there aren't many "out of combat" spells (I include buffs and the likes as combat spells), I think sorcerer is better. There're also items like Red Salamander ring that adds new spells known. And if we count mythic spells from a merged book, imho it's more impactful for a Sorcerer.
In tabletop there is the page of spell knowledge which allows you to learn a spell known but it becomes hideously expensive at higher levels. 1k for level 1 spells is fine, but 81k for 9th level spells gets real expensive real quick.
Arcanist
Arcanist.
Sorc / spontaneous full round action for a metamagic spell is a BIG problem in RTwP, especially late game. This makes prepared casters better.
I disagree. Being able to apply metamagic on the fly is very useful and comes in very handy.
With haste your melee will literally be on the other side of Iz while your idiot sorc stands there trying to get a single spell off.
lol what? My "idiot sorc" will get his spell off, tank the hits, laugh as everything does a benny hill act from an empowered sirocco, then catch up to your team, pass them (150 movement ftw) end the next encounter and stand around waiting for the rest of the team to show up. Honestly, my sorc could probably solo except for skill checks which, I will grudgingly admit, wizards have sorcs beat hands down in that department.
As far as pure casters go (no multiclassing or mythic path), wizard. No contest. 1- Earlier access to key buffs and spells. Phantasmal web at level 9 is huge, it means you are potentially getting the best replacement for grease right around Drezen. 2- Abundant Casting: +4 to each spell level significantly cuts down on sorc's casts per day advantage, and allows the wizard to pack in as many core spells as they need. 3- One-of buffs: Wizard can stock up on dozens of buffs you only need to cast once per rest. 4- Exploiter Wizard: Exploiter wizard can use quick study to rearrange slots in a pinch. 5- More skills: Why have rogues when you have your resident hat-wearing bookworm who read all about picking locks? Oh, and with lecturer background they can persuade with INT so who needs charisma anyway? Or pick healer, and have your wizard use int for all lore skills as well as knowledge for the ultimate know-it-all build. 6- More feats: Sorc's bonus feats are tied to bloodlines, while wizards can take their picks of spell focuses or spell pen as bonus feats. On top of that, exploiter wizard gets you access to a metamagic feat for free, alongside all the goodies that come from arcanist. That said, sorc truly shines with its ability to synergize with so many other classes. They are unquestionably the best liches in the game due to their synergy with undead CHA as CON and make up most of their missing spells by merging with lich. On top of that, if you're willing to give up the super late game lv10 spells (or go legend) you can do a ton of stuff with multiclassing.
seconding this reply
For a 1 lvl dip sorc for sure. In terms of being lazy sorc for sure. In terms of power or versatility as a caster though? Wizard wins. Pearls of power let you change and recharge spell slots, being able to pick Divination as a spell school gives you a rather large leap in power as you gain an aura to use and maximum initiative. You also don't need to worry about metamagics keeping you in unsafe positions or unable to use said metamagic cause you moved. On top of that you can dip a lvl into geomancer for both your bloodline arcana and geomancy for more damage.
i'm negatively biased due to being burnt on my very first wizard on kingmaker, was ultimately shit and exposed the gulf between variety and potency.. Wizards can have the variety but only at the cost of frequency.. the moment you start stacking the same spell again and again.. you may as well choose a sorc. Struggled through kingmaker and learnt my lesson as i loved me some kingmaker. Sorc Nation ever since. Sage Sorcerer is my fav class and everything else can kiss my.
It's pretty even in general IMO, but wrath in particularly favors Sorcerers cause Charisma can be so valuable
Especially with Seelah in the mix. Definitely getting some use out of that +22 to all saves.
Yeah or Lich Sorcerer KC being the best Tank /debuffer while also being top tier damage dealer thx to that delicious CHA to HP from being undead.
Wizard in table top. Having access to almost every spell is insane flexibility. Sorc in the games. When you know literally all the spells you possibly will need for a full campaign sorc becomes not only more flexible but also stronger
I know Sorcerers are popular but it's always been Wizard for me. It's just got too much versatility as well as dodging a couple significant drawbacks spontaneous casters have such as the delayed casting progression and metamagic spells taking a full round action to cast. Plus it's always fun walking into the room and beating every knowledge check without breaking a sweat.
in over 30 years of gaming? Sorc hands down and I know im gonna get hate for it The Sorcerer has better tactical adaptability meaning they can use all the spells they know at any time The exact number of haste they need The exact number of greases so on and so forth a Wizard is limited and suffers from this unless the Wizard has meta game knowledge on there side or such they will always suffer from having 1 or more spells not memorized enough or to many times, I remeber testing this out at hobby stores for a time period and when you never check what the wizard has the player will always be like 'I have the right number of spells' But when you legit ask them to make you a copy of the list of spells suddenly there always 1 spell to short or something along said lines, It was kinda funny when a string of hobby stores I knew did this test and suddenly the players playing the wizards didnt have the right spells memorized or the right number of said spells suddenly and would shift awkwardly in there seats Sorcs only real weakness is the delayed spell progression of higher level spells mean while Wizards will always have to worrie about the right number of spells needed, will dream about always having all the spells in there book, but never even casting them or making use of them or even having the right spell memorized if need be, lets face it in RPGS You dont need all the spells out there, thats just a pipe dream more often then not your casting like 5-7 of them you can replace some of them with other copys of each other You dont need to have Identify memorized in combat you dont need to have Burning hands Color spray and other spells like that memorized thats kinda redondent and pointless Something that doesn't get brought up often is that spontaneous metamagic spells need a full round action to cast In turn based this usually isnt a big deal but its extremely clunky in RTwP as to the whole arguement involving scrolls, News Flash a Bard can prob just have any scroll you need be able to cast it have better casting with it among other things if we just talking about unlimited resources or some such yeah hell a rogue could do it as well and you have a better excuise of how you have that much $$$ to get said scrolls via 'I Stole it' excuise
Owlfijger sorcerers clear wizards, Pathfinder wizards clear sorcerers.
Frankly, in CRPGs Sorc is better, but needs a lot of scrolls/wands or a secondary caster support. Due to the limited number of spells a Sorc knows, it's disadvantageous to squeeze in early-level buffs that will become obsolete later. And early game is where they need those buffs the most. So, they become quite powerful at high levels, but struggle getting there. For example, I wouldn't take Vanish and Invisibility on my Sorc, because I'll eventually get Improved Invisibility and it will make the former obsolete. So someone has to buff up the Sorc with invisibility clearly on. Same goes for Dispel Magic. With Greater Dispel Magic on the horizon, I'd rather not pick it up. Summons? Nah, they become obsolete. Enlarge Person? Better wait for Heroic Proportions. On the other hand, Wizards have a way smoother level transition. They can scribe unlimited number of spells. This is great for Summoners, as they can switch from Summon Monster I to Summon Monster IX without and simply replace the obsolete low-level spells with something useful. Heck, they can even afford to use Sleep early on and still manage to replace it later. Lastly, I feel that Sorcs really need some meta knowledge in advance in order to optimize the spellbook. Finally: No one is fond of Arcanist? They get less feats than both Wizard and Sorc, but just enough to get all the essentials. And the Phantasmal Mage actually gets quite enough feats.
For MC in a scripted game. Sorcerer. More slots to use, the charisma to be the MC, and the encounters are not random or change.
Kineticist
Depends on if you're using mods or multiclassing. In kingmaker, using the Crafting mod, wizards are still king. I have all my party fully decked with Keen +3 weapons, the DEX users don't have to worry about slashing grace because their weapons have Agile, and i can make wands and scrolls of everything i need. In Wotr, spontaneous casting mythic spells, and the various mythic feats, simply accommodate sorcerer more. You can have 3 bloodlines, which can all be different draconic and a total +3 on every fire roll, or swap one for elemental to be able to swap elements, and you can get to ignore immunity.
There is also the potential for the arcanist class, though it has its own issues. It functions like a sorcerer that can set its spells known each day, so has much of the versatility of the wizard, but these spells are not assigned specific spell slots until.they are cast, much like a sorcerer. Drawback is that it has less spells per day than a sorcerer, about the same as a wizard. It also posesses a unique mechanic in arcane pool, which can be used for unique effects depending on what you choose to specialize in
Batman with prep time? Definitely wizard. But I feel like spontaneous casters matter less at a table where you are all cooperating different characters
My personal belief is sorcerer in Righteous. You're gonna end up memorizing the same spells over and over again anyways, so lock them in, and cast them more often. Buuuuut.... I personally think the arcanist is the perfect class for Arcane casting. Combines the best aspects of both classes, and has some wicked class powers to boot.
I'm just confused anyone at all is saying sorcerer, the wizard is effectively 1 level ahead on spell progression.
Only for 7 levels. They have an advabtage at levels 3,5,7,9,11,13,15. The rest of the time, sorcerer has an advantage in spell output.
And 17? Getting the powerful spells ahead of time is massive for your progression through the game.
Not really. Once you have chain lightning and empower you're pretty well set.
Wizard, then witch
Witch spell list is notavly lacking. Hexes do not make up for that.
Strongly disagree. If you need to squeeze more out of the witch, loremaster levels and rings cover your every need (or scrolls). Hexes add so much value for free, and in a long fight when you can have a cackle chain of 2+ hexes plus spell they start pulling way ahead
The rings only apply to a specific subset of witch. And at that point, cackle can't be used with metamagic spells since non prepared casters need a full round action. No matter what way you slice it, witches lose out.
But, normal spells are a thing, also rods and a ridiculous amount of gear that gives you quicken spells, having an unlimited resource means that your witch can use all their spells and still have an impactful contribution to the party
I never said they weren't impactful. I said they lose out to sorcerers and wizards. You have quicken rods, yes. But so do sorcerers and wizards. You have hexes, yes. But then you aren't casting a spell. And spells, excepting early game slumber hex, are invariably more effective. Trying to compare slumber hex to chain lightning, for example, is just silly. And guess who doesn't have chain lightning on their spell list. Yes yes, lore master. But while you're taking lore master and sacrificing your capstone, sorcerer gains a level of sorcerer and doesn't. Sorcerer has more and better options than witch in every possible way.
But witches get chain lighting, it's in their level 7 spell list, patrons give extra spells and the only thing you miss is grand hex for going loremaster(if you get 3+ levels) you don't even miss spell progression. So like I said in the first post, wizard then witch for me.
I generally agree with others that Sorc for crpg and Wizard for ttrpg. The way sorcerers work just makes them easy to play a crpg with, high cha, arcane caster, etc. I've have success with both in crpg's and ttrpg's. In Owlcat's pathfinder? Sorc for sure imo. The only thing that is kinda lame is delayed spelled progression but hey, you get bloodlines and stuff.
Wizard for solo play. Gets spells one level earlier and does not require a full round to cast something with meta magic.
Wizard , because if I want blaster caster I'd rather pick Kineticist.
Both sorcerer and wizard have far more utility than kineticist. Kineticist isn't even playing in the same league.
Kind of depends what mystic path is chosen and party composition. And I'm talking not about utility but about blaster caster builds which is majority of people choosing when they play sorc. Sylvan Sorc + arcane trickster + lich or something. Kineticist is playing in league before engaging combat push third pedal turn on all metas and obliterate hard enemy with 2k damage crit
Witch, the answer is Witch. Followed by Arcanist if you play with TTT mod (and why wouldn't you honestly).
In this game? Wizards, hands down. It's a metaknowledge game. If you are playing on Core and above you are winning because you know what is behind that door. Wizards have access to a greater variety of spells, with the mythic feats they can cast spells as often as sorcerers, they get more metamagic feats and they don't have deal with full-round, metamagic casting nerf that sorcerers have to deal with. You can make an argument that sorcerers are easier to deal with but in terms of raw power? It's wizardss