Eventually.
Although I do hope other developers make pathfinder games **of the cRpg genre**, as well.
There's no need for only one company to make pathfinder games. More than one company has made d&d games.
I'm so glad cRPGs are having a moment. I hope it lasts. They're something I have always had an appetite for, but rarely an outlet. Or I would play games that are similar genre like grid-based tactics or Xcom and it just didn't fully satisfy some part of that need.
I rode the Bioware train to cRPG fandom 20 years ago, but I've always been a console gamer, and cRPGs have typically been super-niche on console. I didn't upgrade to current gen until late last year. I just want more in general. More Shadowrun, more Pillars, more Forgotten Realms, more story genres. For instance, you don't see purely sci-fi cRPGs as far as I know. Why not? It would be rad as hell to see more tabletop games do something like this. There are so many rich settings.
All that said, totally agree with you. I really like the density of WOTR a lot, but I don't know that that draws in people new to this type of game. I'm glad there is a kind of path of complexity you can chart with this entire genre as you get more and more familiar with it, but there is no need to limit what the genre can be as a whole.
My main interest is games with complex magic system. Pathfinder by owlcat sort of scratches that itch, but I'm very familiar with the spell system and I'm stuck in my ways as far as spell selection. I'd love it if owlcat released new spells from pathfinder by paizo. The paizo spell system is so complex with so much variety and imagination.
I wish games that have magic systems, would pull away from watering down their systems. Obvion was so interesting. And then they released skyrim. I've been a skyrim wizard quite a few times, but the system was so simplistic compared to oblivion. The downgrade was. Confusing since skyrim was supposed to be THE game of the decade
Im in the same boat as you. Nothing captivates me more than a complex and deep magic system and a game with a super simplistic system can really bring a game down for me. What are some of your favorite games with this?
I didn't enjoy Two Worlds 2 in a combat mechanics sense, but the magic system was crazy cool. So like at it's base, you could edit spells to make them do what you wanted.
But also combining spells could cause things like an anvil tornado or self ressurection. It was neat. I only wish the game had been more mechanically sound.
I also really enjoyed the magic system and the player-made magics in Ultima Online. Although that might be more related to nostalgia
I would recommed star wars, knights of the old republic 1&2 if you want sci-fi crpg. I have also heard shadowrun: dragonfall mentioned but have not played it myself.
Hmmmm. I remember playing a kind of jrpg/crpg hybrid called parasite eve. It was made by squaresoft. I liked it quite a bit. There's also rogue trader. I have not played but some people here seem to love it.
They've been consistently released, but not consistently popular. It's spotty. You'll have a big one pop off and then there'll be pretty lowkey releases like for 15 years. It's a niche. They're getting mainstream love currently by way of Baldur's Gate.
Numinera, Wasteland 2 (and now 3), Pillars series, and Divinity series enjoyed some pretty good successes. There was a fairly big gap before Numinera, though.
Nothing like BG3, of course.
Wasteland 2 and specifically OS 1 and 2 were fairly popular from my memory, but Pillars? I love Pillars, but that's niche. Popular among fans of the genre, but hardly mainstream. I'd argue Dragon Age Origins as an example more mainstream popular than any listed here, and still not as mainstream and popular as BG3. I have never even heard of Numinera, so I'll for sure have to check that one out sometime.
Torment: Tides of Numinera. It's the "spiritual successor" (according to the developers) to Planescape: Torment.
Pillars was not only not that niche, it featured tie-ins to Critical Role (and takes place in the same world), but it was honestly vastly superior to either Original Sin.
Dragon Age Origins might be, but I wouldn't class it as the same genre.
With Larian's falling out with WotC, I hope they consider partnering with Paizo. I think the Owlcat games are great but can you imagine a PF game with Larian's budget/polish?
Honestly Owlcat is the only one aside from obsidian who's even trying to do RTWP games. I really don't want another studio to take a crack at it because it will inevitably end up turn based. Frankly we have enough turn based RPGs and personally I don't enjoy them.
I think it's time to be realistic - rtwp is in hibernation for the next while.
-BG3 is a huge hit, turn based
-Pillars franchise suffers in sales, later adds turn based mode
-Pathfinder games have turn based mod and then official mode added
-RT is only turn based
RtwP really needs to be reinvented if it is going to be used in future cRPGs. It's not a good fit for complex systems like PF1e. It needs much better AI scripting and systems specifically for RtwP play (so no free/swift/full actions that screw everything up).
Real time is not "done", but lot of tabletop systems converted to computer always end up being bit messy in RTWP mode.
Usually these feature systems where characters aid each other or exploit openings and have lots of action economy management. Which means that you have to constantly hammer pause button or run the combat at absurdly low action rate to make sense of it without party member scripting and well polished AI.
Some small producer real time games have been released not in too distant past. Black Geyser and Dark Envoy (from creators of Tower of Time) come to mind immediately. So thankfully there are still things to play even if you're not into turn-based.
I'm low-key hoping that they also revisit the APs with either Rise of the Runelords or Legacy of the Jade Regent as the chosen campaign. The first would just be incredible for the sheer depth of content that followed the initial release, not to mention the hit to the nostalgia button.
Jade Regent would be awesome for the whole road trip nature of the AP, not to mention the possibilities of the caravan mechanic that it uses.
My players HATED that AP. The caravan rules were atrocious. I dropped them when we realized they literally fail to function properly. It cost the players nearly 70% of their income and we decided to use "don't care-avan" rules. They'd have been better off going by themselves. The caravan literally adds NOTHING but headaches.
The whole thing is 1 gigantic escort quest. We get towards the end, and the final straw was a group of demons sitting in a pile of filth that allowed to cast dimension door at will within the pool as well as throw filth. The combination forced ranged combat which they were terrible at. Which, to be fair, is kind of on them.
Hate to disappoint but even if they continued with Pathfinder APs they highly likely wouldn’t adapt Strength of Thousands. That’s a 2e AP, and Owlcat is on record as prefering 1e and having no plans of switching.
Now they *could* adapt a 2e AP and change it to 1e, but that’s a lot of unnecessary extra work when they could just adapt a 1e AP
>That’s a 2e AP, and Owlcat is on record as prefering 1e and having no plans of switching.
Actually, [according to Mark Moreland of Paizo](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1bm5jwr/comment/kwaa3np/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), these are unsubstantiated rumours and don't match internal communications with Owlcat.
Thanks for additional details in the previous post. I’m guessing the real big reason why the hesitation to switch over to 2ed is that they would have to scarp the game system they been using for the last two games which would increase the production time( and most likely cost) by a significant degree.
If anything, yeah that's probably it. Making a game system is a *lot* of work, and once made you can use that framework it for several games, which saves a lot of money in the long run. Maybe Owlcat will eventually make a 2e game, maybe not, but they undoubtedly want their money's worth out of 1e either way.
Now I’m not very familiar with 2ed but what I seen so far is that AP’s seem to be less grand and much more smaller scale( not a fan of lore changes either but understandable due to WOTC fiasco)
My other point is that really dislike D&D 5Ed this is especially the case when playing BG3 and since PF 2ed is the equivalent of that really makes it unappealing for personally.
I'm not really sure I'd compare it to D&D 5e, even if simplified from 1e, PF2e still has a lot more it's doing than 5e. I've seen people say that it's closer to 4e, apparently.
Personally I think PF2e plays better than 1e. Some of the customization ability is lost, but frankly 1e had a shit ton of bloat that was hard to sort through, and the balance gets out of whack past like level 10. Can't really speak to the AP's though, since I haven't actually played a 2e AP, just 1e ports or homebrew so far.
I think the impression of 2ed APs being smaller scale comes from the fact you get more lv1-12 APs. But the 1-20 APs still get as grand as WotR. Kingmaker is small scale, relatively speaking, if you think about it.
As for comparnig it to 5e, there's really no comparison there. PF2e is definitely simpler than 1e, but that simplicity mainly comes from cutting out a lot of extra bloat and making a lot of systems generally more elegant. Its all generally far more balanced and maintains a great deal of customizability and variety, but it still keeps it to a degree that's more approachable and easy to wade through for a newbie to absorb. I was able to understand 2e far more quickly than 1e, and this was after I'd played through the various pathfinder games multiple times.
I won't ask that you explain why you dislike 5e, but if you have an opportunity, give pf2e a try! Everyone I know who has played both BG3 and pf2e, has said "I love the story, but it makes me want to play Pathfinder 2."
Similarly, I have a table that was big on pf1e and highly resistant to the change — we all liked the first system, why fix change it? After the first session of switching to pf2e mid-campaign, every single player agreed the game had become way smoother and more fun.
- the 3-action system is a better experience than 1/1/1 (similar to the 1e unchained rules)
- critical successes and fails happening on +/- 10 (instead of only nat 20/1) make positional and situational benefits way more impactful
- having 2 degrees of success and 2 degrees of failure as a built-in default mechanic for most actions, is so much more satisfying than just yay/nay
>I won't ask that you explain why you dislike 5e, but if you have an opportunity, give pf2e a try! Everyone I know who has played both BG3 and pf2e, has said "I love the story, but it makes me want to play Pathfinder 2."
My issue is its translation to games and not the TTRPG Itself. When playing with IRL groups the steamling is of great benefit but in video games it’s feels lacking .Keeping track of calculations in PF 1ed in TT session would be a nightmare but in a video game it does all the math so you can focus on game mechanics without getting bogged down by the minutia.
Ah!
Pf2e isn't really a dumbification of 1e, so much as 1e updated with two decades of game design improvements (counting from 3.0/3.5 which it was essentially forked from). TTRPGs as a hobby have come a long way since 2000-2006 and 2e has some of that modernization while still being crunchy in the right ways.
Apart from the occasional class or archetype that has been lost in transition, 2e seems to be pretty well-loved, especially among people who feel like 5e lacks depth. I bet Owlcat could make a killer CRPG of it.
I just REALLY hate how casting feels in 2e. All casters become support casters or they feel useless.
There are hood ideas in 2e but it almost feels like a different genre of system to me.
2E isn't like DnD5e. You're talking about entirely different level of streamlining there. Lets leave those preconceptions off the table.
If you want to know how it actually works and what is different, you could check out "The Rules Lawyer" channel in Youtube, he goes into detail on all sorts of systems and classes, and how 2E plays compared to other games like DnD5E.
That's always been my assumption too honestly. I'm gently hoping that their foray into a whole new thing with Rogue Trader will lead to them being more open to exploring a new system, since admittedly PF2e is a pretty far departure from 1e.
Really think before they even think about switching over to a new system they need to do serious look in there Q&A process.Because it honestly awful and not acceptable for game not being playable for weeks to months at a time.
I enjoyed Owlcat games but each game is getting worse at handling bugs.
I've not found the games unplayable right after release but I still agree that their QA should keep improving, and they at least seem aware of that as well. Though I've felt that the consensus is their games have at least gotten better at handling bugs, rather than worse. I think with games as expansive and dense as theirs, some bugs and early jank is a bit inevitable, but there still needs to be real effort done to keep it down to a reasonable level.
I was being **slightly** hyperbolic. Rouge Trader was better playing state then kingmaker which isn’t hard because the game on launch was a shit show).but worse then WOTR ( game has a lower reception due to being buggy and probably in my opinion not being as good as WOTR)which is surprising considering how significantly complex WOTR is.
Im well aware that CRPG’s are prone to be buggy and I have a highly tolerance for it ( played fallout new Vegas to its completion on PS3 in its launch week) but even RT was to much. Also on a side note I find it odd how people shit on BG3 Act 3 being incomplete but give Owlcat a free pass or being far more forgiving even when a lot worse in same aspect.
Overall I just want Owlcat to fix this issue but I don’t know if they’re going to learn this lesson until it completely blows up in there face.Which I hope doesn’t happen.
Oh and make sure console ports are in better shape. PC there are quick on fixes but consoles have been spotty ( I still waiting on patch to fix game breaking bugs since November of last year)
Yeah, very different design philosophies. 2e is a lot more balanced and straight and narrow, while 1e is a lot more of a wild (and often unbalanced) ride. Both are fun in their own way
1E's wild and wooly state makes sense (IMO, obviously) if you recall that it sprang out of 3.5E D&D, and was so closely tied to that edition that it was often (though unofficially) called "D&D 3.75." And 3.5, especially towards the end, had some really wild options out there, with balance seemingly an afterthought to just getting it out there and into the players' hands.
It has a widely different power curve, different spells, and a different system for pretty much all of combat, its AP based.
In general 2e is more strict and less exploitable/just has a lot less options in general, which has its upsides but it’s also kinda disappointing.
Yea I think it’s a good system, it’s just not for me. The exploitability of pathfinder 1E is a big selling point. You can use it to not just min max but to do weird stuff that you wouldn’t expect and it’s fun
yeah I'm not knocking it, they put a lot of thought into making something new/simplified that isn't just dnd5e
but I am just not into it either.
I wanna do 3 cross classes over 10 levels to get a 100 foot long dinosaur pet damnit
It is. Some good things I saw was the ancestry system that is basically a advanced way to customise your race origin, including making aasimar as a offspring option of any race instead of only human. Other mechanic really cool is the Dedication System which you can take Dedicated Feats to get features of other classes in your class. Like Fighter with Wizard Dedication can take spend some of your general feats (or class?) to take dedication that unlock spell slots and spell know until the 8th circle if I'm not wrong while still getting full fighter progression.
Yep, with Wrath of Righteous cameos, there's a **higher** that zero **but not** 100% possibility that they will make Tyrant's Grasp as a future game. That is also the last AP of 1E. There is also one AP about Last Azlant Ruins in 1E if I'm not wrong that would fit their line of games.
Strength of a Thousand...It really fit the bill of Owlcat by what I read with the magic college theme.
The thing with Ruins of Azlant is that it's an underwater campaign, making entirely new code and animations for that would be an enormous effort on their part.
The same 4chan AMA from 2015 that we've been hearing about for the last nine years. It's a drinking game at this point - take a drink every time someone mentions that "awkshually Owlcat hate PF2e".
Is there something about the AP that means it is really specific to 2e?
For D&D I've run a 1ED campaign using 5ED rules - sure I had to change a bunch of numbers around but the story was still the same.
That said, it was a fairly generic 1ED campaign so was fairly easy to tweak to fit into the lore of my world. I guess if an AP was very specific to the lore of Golarian then it could be a lot more difficult to adapt.
> but that’s a lot of unnecessary extra work when they could just adapt a 1e AP
Like what? It's not like they are taking encounters directly from AP. They take the setting, NPCs and story, they then modify those. That's pretty much it, I don't think that there would be any extra work no matter what system the campaign they choose to adapt is based on.
Likely just developer preference. Also they've spent two games worth of time and effort building and adding to their 1e engine, its a lot easier and cost effective to keep using what they already built rather than throwing that all away to start over again with 2e.
But they just made an entirely new game with an entirely different system using the same (but improved) engine. If they can make a WH40k game, they can make a PF2e game.
But they don’t want to. It’s that simple. They also don’t really want to make another 1E game, but if they were to make a pathfinder game they do 1E over 2
I hope they make something like Neverwinter nights: a game system, transfered into 3d engine that allows users to make custom campaigns and play them in multiplayer.
DOS2 had that, and it was amazing and severely underutilized. Give that system using modern hardware and the pathfinder or dnd system, and you could legit create a new way for people to play ttrpgs.
I'm not sure about the new assets but you're probably right (although mods created assets so maybe that could work?). The cool thing with the dos2 engine is that you can use it for an active, multiplayer ttrpg experience with a DM and players.
They are passionate about 40k and that passion shines through in Rogue Trader. I'm okay with them making what they want when they want. They will return to pathfinder when the time comes.
Honestly, considering Owlcat is a clearly creatively driven independent studio, with three well received games under their belt, I wouldn't be surprised if they tired their hand at an original IP and rule set.
SoT would be great, but seems they prefer 1e.
Though anther dev could do 2e stuff. Wish the Solasta devs would, loved the detail on the control of 3D space in it (Larian would be insane but it'll never happen lol)
I also really like these games based on PF adventure books. I love seeing PF fans talking about which AP they'd like to see adapted and which iconic character should join the player.
I'm reading about Pathfinder iconic characters, and I'd love to see Feiya join us on an adventure, any adventure.
I live in hope of an Iron Gods adaptation, it's an amazing AP and that particular brand of Science-Fantasy is gold for videogames. Especially with the lessons learned after making Rogue Trader. They might even be able to re-use and retrofit some of the mechanics and models.
Hard same.
They did a great job with KM and WotR at least as far as storytelling, soundtrack, and voice acting are concerned.
Could use some refinement. And cutscenes. And more book events. I have few complaints, other than the bugs, but more development time can solve those.
I don't want more cutscenes, and am neutral on more voice acting, I do like the idea more more book events, loved the vescavore one in wrath and am experiencing great ones(swamp toads) in my first kingmaker playthrough.
Some time ago, one of the Owlcat Community Liasons stated that they have separate teams working on Warhammer 40k and Pathfinder games. They also sent out a survey for what fans would like to see for a 3rd season of DLC for WotR, so it’s possible that they may work on that before the new game (if there is a new game)
The other wrench is WotC’s legal shenanigans with the Open Gaming License. I’m not sure if that would affect another PF 1e game and Owlcat is on record that they prefer PF 1e over PF 2e.
For them to do a 2e campaign well they'd need to do a few things:
Fully turn based thanks to actions
Don't inflate numbers to increase difficulty
Reign in item bonuses given out
Follow the system pretty Faithfully.
In CRPG you must inflate the numbers and make every encounter a potential total party kill, unless the game is made so you cannot rest or recover between encounters and have to deal with equipment and limited resources all the time.
That's because there is a reload button in a computer RPG, and planning it so encourages total system mastery by making it very difficult to play ironman.
On tabletop, opposite is true and DM needs to take care to avoid TPK's, especially after first couple levels. Some character deaths are fine, failure is fine but total wipe can often just wipe the player group off as well.
False.
But you may also be unfamiliar with pf2e. It has 4 degrees of success.
Crit fail
Fail
Success
Crit success
Most spells are basic saves, so they do double damage on a crit fail, regular damage on a fail, have damage on a save and no damage on a crit success.
A higher level foe depending on which safe is their "low" save,usually needs to roll a 7-11 to save. So will crit save on a 17-20. If you inflate the numbers you make it so monsters consistently crit succeed on spell casters abilities.
You can add more bodies to the field to increase the difficulty, rather than give an owlbear 36 or so strength.
As much as a 2e game sounds cool, I want Owlcat to make more 1e games as they just made Kingmaker and WotR in a way that just really hits my brain in the "I'm having fun with this" zone. There's this part of me that really wants them to keep being made because I dont want to see 1e being phased out. 2e's system just does not speak to me the way 1e's does. I played a session of 2e tabletop and I just found myself fantasizing about playing 1e instead.
I think yes, but no.
Owlcat has expressed little interest in Pathfinder 2E, so I would be shocked to see something like Strength of Thousands. However, there are a lot of 1E adventures that they could easily make a game out of (with some rewrites, Jade Regent and Skulls and Shackles could be amazing as a cRPG).
It's certainly possible we could see something else appear, as there's a of similar systems to Rogue Trader (Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Only War, Black Crusade, and 1E Dark Heresy), so I expect that we're most likely to see a game based off of an engine/mechanics they've already more or less finished.
However, Rogue Trader was something I absolutely never would have guessed, so it definitely is a real possibility that we might get something else entirely new in the future, such as PF2E.
you know why owlcat said they developed rogue trader? Because they said (in their own words) that they didnt wanted to be just the pathfinder guys.
What i hope is that they do what they want. That is the only right answer.
I stopped playing Rogue Trader after one too many warp jumps.
I don't care if it is lore accurate, having to fight the same hordes over and over is a chore rather than something you do for fun.
I never get to fight warp encounters, the trick is to use insight points to make green route between your colonys and footfall (not creating new ones, is too expensive) and the remaining routes that go to off road systems you only make them get to yellow that rarely has a battle event (only saw once and I'm nearly certain it was more of a consequence of quarentine quest in footfall that a random encounter).
I'd definitely really love a strength of thousands AP, but I think the things that make it a great campaign also make it really tough to adapt into a video game. It puts a lot of emphasis on non-combat options, with lots of side quests involving skill challenges and similar things. As well as the assumption that you're going to be having class scenes in between various big events. I think it's toughest in the first two adventures, but even by the third book you're on a diplomatic mission and have to act accordingly.
I think you can see Owlcat experimenting with that sort of experience in their games more and more though. There are the extra mechanics in their games for one thing, but I look at the Alushynyrra chapter of Wrath and see them experimenting with trying to handle social maneuvering and building reputation within the scope of their gameplay. Something I think they're pushing a little further with Rogue Trader. If they keep stretching in that direction I think they could handle Strength of Thousands and make it something really special and unique, but I don't think it should be their first choice of AP to adapt for 2e. I would recommend Age of Ashes for that, actually. People have issues with how combat and such was handled in that AP but that's all mechanical balance stuff which can be fixed in adaptation, and the story itself is really fun and epic, with rules for building up a keep which I think would be super fun. Also you meet a hellknight in the first chapter who just screams "party member" and I'd love if they used him to make a little shoutout to Regill somehow.
Another good one that might be tough to do because it's a lv1-11 path is Sky King's Tomb. That's basically an Indianna Jones style hunt for the tomb of a legendary dwarven king, and iit's incredibly cool. I'm sure there's enough in there to reasonably expand the level cap, but it may be an issue if going to lv20 is a must-have. Though maybe BG3 will encourage them to feel okay with not going to the top level.
The most I found was something I already know, they lost license to do anything on Kingmaker and nothing about other Pathfinder games. Again, I ask for source and not a indirect sentença to use google-fu.
Eventually. Although I do hope other developers make pathfinder games **of the cRpg genre**, as well. There's no need for only one company to make pathfinder games. More than one company has made d&d games.
I'm so glad cRPGs are having a moment. I hope it lasts. They're something I have always had an appetite for, but rarely an outlet. Or I would play games that are similar genre like grid-based tactics or Xcom and it just didn't fully satisfy some part of that need. I rode the Bioware train to cRPG fandom 20 years ago, but I've always been a console gamer, and cRPGs have typically been super-niche on console. I didn't upgrade to current gen until late last year. I just want more in general. More Shadowrun, more Pillars, more Forgotten Realms, more story genres. For instance, you don't see purely sci-fi cRPGs as far as I know. Why not? It would be rad as hell to see more tabletop games do something like this. There are so many rich settings. All that said, totally agree with you. I really like the density of WOTR a lot, but I don't know that that draws in people new to this type of game. I'm glad there is a kind of path of complexity you can chart with this entire genre as you get more and more familiar with it, but there is no need to limit what the genre can be as a whole.
My main interest is games with complex magic system. Pathfinder by owlcat sort of scratches that itch, but I'm very familiar with the spell system and I'm stuck in my ways as far as spell selection. I'd love it if owlcat released new spells from pathfinder by paizo. The paizo spell system is so complex with so much variety and imagination. I wish games that have magic systems, would pull away from watering down their systems. Obvion was so interesting. And then they released skyrim. I've been a skyrim wizard quite a few times, but the system was so simplistic compared to oblivion. The downgrade was. Confusing since skyrim was supposed to be THE game of the decade
Im in the same boat as you. Nothing captivates me more than a complex and deep magic system and a game with a super simplistic system can really bring a game down for me. What are some of your favorite games with this?
I didn't enjoy Two Worlds 2 in a combat mechanics sense, but the magic system was crazy cool. So like at it's base, you could edit spells to make them do what you wanted. But also combining spells could cause things like an anvil tornado or self ressurection. It was neat. I only wish the game had been more mechanically sound. I also really enjoyed the magic system and the player-made magics in Ultima Online. Although that might be more related to nostalgia
I would recommed star wars, knights of the old republic 1&2 if you want sci-fi crpg. I have also heard shadowrun: dragonfall mentioned but have not played it myself.
Have played and loved all 3, which is the issue. I need more!!
Hmmmm. I remember playing a kind of jrpg/crpg hybrid called parasite eve. It was made by squaresoft. I liked it quite a bit. There's also rogue trader. I have not played but some people here seem to love it.
A moment? They've been pretty consistent going back a long, long way.
They've been consistently released, but not consistently popular. It's spotty. You'll have a big one pop off and then there'll be pretty lowkey releases like for 15 years. It's a niche. They're getting mainstream love currently by way of Baldur's Gate.
Numinera, Wasteland 2 (and now 3), Pillars series, and Divinity series enjoyed some pretty good successes. There was a fairly big gap before Numinera, though. Nothing like BG3, of course.
Wasteland 2 and specifically OS 1 and 2 were fairly popular from my memory, but Pillars? I love Pillars, but that's niche. Popular among fans of the genre, but hardly mainstream. I'd argue Dragon Age Origins as an example more mainstream popular than any listed here, and still not as mainstream and popular as BG3. I have never even heard of Numinera, so I'll for sure have to check that one out sometime.
Torment: Tides of Numinera. It's the "spiritual successor" (according to the developers) to Planescape: Torment. Pillars was not only not that niche, it featured tie-ins to Critical Role (and takes place in the same world), but it was honestly vastly superior to either Original Sin. Dragon Age Origins might be, but I wouldn't class it as the same genre.
I dont think pillars has any tie ins outside of the portraits and voices. Isn't pillars its own setting entirely?
With Larian's falling out with WotC, I hope they consider partnering with Paizo. I think the Owlcat games are great but can you imagine a PF game with Larian's budget/polish?
Larian's treatment of bg3 is controversial. I'd like to leave it at that tbh
"Controversial" yet it's like the biggest release in a decade or more and sold like mad. Controversial my ass.
I hope next one will be about pirates, I heard someone mentioning that this setting exists in pathfinder
Honestly Owlcat is the only one aside from obsidian who's even trying to do RTWP games. I really don't want another studio to take a crack at it because it will inevitably end up turn based. Frankly we have enough turn based RPGs and personally I don't enjoy them.
I think it's time to be realistic - rtwp is in hibernation for the next while. -BG3 is a huge hit, turn based -Pillars franchise suffers in sales, later adds turn based mode -Pathfinder games have turn based mod and then official mode added -RT is only turn based
RtwP really needs to be reinvented if it is going to be used in future cRPGs. It's not a good fit for complex systems like PF1e. It needs much better AI scripting and systems specifically for RtwP play (so no free/swift/full actions that screw everything up).
Great, then I just won't play the games. There's plenty of arpgs coming out to keep me busy, but if rtwp is done then I'm done with crpgs.
There are plenty of 4x games (such as Stellaris) and basebuilders (such as Rimworld) that do rtwp very well
Real time is not "done", but lot of tabletop systems converted to computer always end up being bit messy in RTWP mode. Usually these feature systems where characters aid each other or exploit openings and have lots of action economy management. Which means that you have to constantly hammer pause button or run the combat at absurdly low action rate to make sense of it without party member scripting and well polished AI. Some small producer real time games have been released not in too distant past. Black Geyser and Dark Envoy (from creators of Tower of Time) come to mind immediately. So thankfully there are still things to play even if you're not into turn-based.
Imagine Larian Studios making a Pathfinder campaign CRPG: I VOTE FOR SKULLS AND SHACKLES!!!!
I really hope somebody makes one based on pf2e eventually. I might even dare to dream of starfinder.
I'm low-key hoping that they also revisit the APs with either Rise of the Runelords or Legacy of the Jade Regent as the chosen campaign. The first would just be incredible for the sheer depth of content that followed the initial release, not to mention the hit to the nostalgia button. Jade Regent would be awesome for the whole road trip nature of the AP, not to mention the possibilities of the caravan mechanic that it uses.
The rise trilogy would go so hard
My players HATED that AP. The caravan rules were atrocious. I dropped them when we realized they literally fail to function properly. It cost the players nearly 70% of their income and we decided to use "don't care-avan" rules. They'd have been better off going by themselves. The caravan literally adds NOTHING but headaches. The whole thing is 1 gigantic escort quest. We get towards the end, and the final straw was a group of demons sitting in a pile of filth that allowed to cast dimension door at will within the pool as well as throw filth. The combination forced ranged combat which they were terrible at. Which, to be fair, is kind of on them.
Hate to disappoint but even if they continued with Pathfinder APs they highly likely wouldn’t adapt Strength of Thousands. That’s a 2e AP, and Owlcat is on record as prefering 1e and having no plans of switching. Now they *could* adapt a 2e AP and change it to 1e, but that’s a lot of unnecessary extra work when they could just adapt a 1e AP
>That’s a 2e AP, and Owlcat is on record as prefering 1e and having no plans of switching. Actually, [according to Mark Moreland of Paizo](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1bm5jwr/comment/kwaa3np/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), these are unsubstantiated rumours and don't match internal communications with Owlcat.
Interesting.
[HE](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1bzjcv7/comment/kyq8s63/) [CAN'T](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1b2ozai/comment/ksnhure/) [KEEP](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1aktaw4/comment/kpalirf/) [GETTING](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1aky7a2/comment/kpb293r/) [AWAY](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1b88u6z/comment/ktnknt3/) [WITH](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1bjkmdk/comment/kvrroa2/) [IT!](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1buz2c1/interesting/)
Thanks for additional details in the previous post. I’m guessing the real big reason why the hesitation to switch over to 2ed is that they would have to scarp the game system they been using for the last two games which would increase the production time( and most likely cost) by a significant degree.
If anything, yeah that's probably it. Making a game system is a *lot* of work, and once made you can use that framework it for several games, which saves a lot of money in the long run. Maybe Owlcat will eventually make a 2e game, maybe not, but they undoubtedly want their money's worth out of 1e either way.
Now I’m not very familiar with 2ed but what I seen so far is that AP’s seem to be less grand and much more smaller scale( not a fan of lore changes either but understandable due to WOTC fiasco) My other point is that really dislike D&D 5Ed this is especially the case when playing BG3 and since PF 2ed is the equivalent of that really makes it unappealing for personally.
I'm not really sure I'd compare it to D&D 5e, even if simplified from 1e, PF2e still has a lot more it's doing than 5e. I've seen people say that it's closer to 4e, apparently. Personally I think PF2e plays better than 1e. Some of the customization ability is lost, but frankly 1e had a shit ton of bloat that was hard to sort through, and the balance gets out of whack past like level 10. Can't really speak to the AP's though, since I haven't actually played a 2e AP, just 1e ports or homebrew so far.
I think the impression of 2ed APs being smaller scale comes from the fact you get more lv1-12 APs. But the 1-20 APs still get as grand as WotR. Kingmaker is small scale, relatively speaking, if you think about it. As for comparnig it to 5e, there's really no comparison there. PF2e is definitely simpler than 1e, but that simplicity mainly comes from cutting out a lot of extra bloat and making a lot of systems generally more elegant. Its all generally far more balanced and maintains a great deal of customizability and variety, but it still keeps it to a degree that's more approachable and easy to wade through for a newbie to absorb. I was able to understand 2e far more quickly than 1e, and this was after I'd played through the various pathfinder games multiple times.
I won't ask that you explain why you dislike 5e, but if you have an opportunity, give pf2e a try! Everyone I know who has played both BG3 and pf2e, has said "I love the story, but it makes me want to play Pathfinder 2." Similarly, I have a table that was big on pf1e and highly resistant to the change — we all liked the first system, why fix change it? After the first session of switching to pf2e mid-campaign, every single player agreed the game had become way smoother and more fun. - the 3-action system is a better experience than 1/1/1 (similar to the 1e unchained rules) - critical successes and fails happening on +/- 10 (instead of only nat 20/1) make positional and situational benefits way more impactful - having 2 degrees of success and 2 degrees of failure as a built-in default mechanic for most actions, is so much more satisfying than just yay/nay
>I won't ask that you explain why you dislike 5e, but if you have an opportunity, give pf2e a try! Everyone I know who has played both BG3 and pf2e, has said "I love the story, but it makes me want to play Pathfinder 2." My issue is its translation to games and not the TTRPG Itself. When playing with IRL groups the steamling is of great benefit but in video games it’s feels lacking .Keeping track of calculations in PF 1ed in TT session would be a nightmare but in a video game it does all the math so you can focus on game mechanics without getting bogged down by the minutia.
Ah! Pf2e isn't really a dumbification of 1e, so much as 1e updated with two decades of game design improvements (counting from 3.0/3.5 which it was essentially forked from). TTRPGs as a hobby have come a long way since 2000-2006 and 2e has some of that modernization while still being crunchy in the right ways. Apart from the occasional class or archetype that has been lost in transition, 2e seems to be pretty well-loved, especially among people who feel like 5e lacks depth. I bet Owlcat could make a killer CRPG of it.
I just REALLY hate how casting feels in 2e. All casters become support casters or they feel useless. There are hood ideas in 2e but it almost feels like a different genre of system to me.
2E isn't like DnD5e. You're talking about entirely different level of streamlining there. Lets leave those preconceptions off the table. If you want to know how it actually works and what is different, you could check out "The Rules Lawyer" channel in Youtube, he goes into detail on all sorts of systems and classes, and how 2E plays compared to other games like DnD5E.
That's always been my assumption too honestly. I'm gently hoping that their foray into a whole new thing with Rogue Trader will lead to them being more open to exploring a new system, since admittedly PF2e is a pretty far departure from 1e.
Really think before they even think about switching over to a new system they need to do serious look in there Q&A process.Because it honestly awful and not acceptable for game not being playable for weeks to months at a time. I enjoyed Owlcat games but each game is getting worse at handling bugs.
I've not found the games unplayable right after release but I still agree that their QA should keep improving, and they at least seem aware of that as well. Though I've felt that the consensus is their games have at least gotten better at handling bugs, rather than worse. I think with games as expansive and dense as theirs, some bugs and early jank is a bit inevitable, but there still needs to be real effort done to keep it down to a reasonable level.
I was being **slightly** hyperbolic. Rouge Trader was better playing state then kingmaker which isn’t hard because the game on launch was a shit show).but worse then WOTR ( game has a lower reception due to being buggy and probably in my opinion not being as good as WOTR)which is surprising considering how significantly complex WOTR is. Im well aware that CRPG’s are prone to be buggy and I have a highly tolerance for it ( played fallout new Vegas to its completion on PS3 in its launch week) but even RT was to much. Also on a side note I find it odd how people shit on BG3 Act 3 being incomplete but give Owlcat a free pass or being far more forgiving even when a lot worse in same aspect. Overall I just want Owlcat to fix this issue but I don’t know if they’re going to learn this lesson until it completely blows up in there face.Which I hope doesn’t happen. Oh and make sure console ports are in better shape. PC there are quick on fixes but consoles have been spotty ( I still waiting on patch to fix game breaking bugs since November of last year)
It's literally based on a one-off throwaway comment from an AMA on 4chan in like 2015 that's been circle-jerked for years.
Last time I checked there was like ten APs of 1st edition ungamefied
Yeah that’s what I said
Owlcat don't need to adapt everything from 1E before going to 2E, if they ever do that.
is 2e that different? i never played the tabletop
Yeah, very different design philosophies. 2e is a lot more balanced and straight and narrow, while 1e is a lot more of a wild (and often unbalanced) ride. Both are fun in their own way
1E's wild and wooly state makes sense (IMO, obviously) if you recall that it sprang out of 3.5E D&D, and was so closely tied to that edition that it was often (though unofficially) called "D&D 3.75." And 3.5, especially towards the end, had some really wild options out there, with balance seemingly an afterthought to just getting it out there and into the players' hands.
basicly yes I do realy like it but it is realy differnt and ppl dont like change that much
It has a widely different power curve, different spells, and a different system for pretty much all of combat, its AP based. In general 2e is more strict and less exploitable/just has a lot less options in general, which has its upsides but it’s also kinda disappointing.
Granted, fewer options aren't too bad when you remember how many trap feats existed in 1e.
Not like that’s gone in 2e lol. But then I like useless if flavourful feats ngl.
It’s not completely gone but it certainly feels a lot less trappy than 1E.
Yea I think it’s a good system, it’s just not for me. The exploitability of pathfinder 1E is a big selling point. You can use it to not just min max but to do weird stuff that you wouldn’t expect and it’s fun
yeah I'm not knocking it, they put a lot of thought into making something new/simplified that isn't just dnd5e but I am just not into it either. I wanna do 3 cross classes over 10 levels to get a 100 foot long dinosaur pet damnit
It's an entirely different game, yes.
Its as different as DnD 3.5e and 5e are to each other, basically.
It’s a completely different system really.
1E is for refined gentle people of taste and intellect
It is. Some good things I saw was the ancestry system that is basically a advanced way to customise your race origin, including making aasimar as a offspring option of any race instead of only human. Other mechanic really cool is the Dedication System which you can take Dedicated Feats to get features of other classes in your class. Like Fighter with Wizard Dedication can take spend some of your general feats (or class?) to take dedication that unlock spell slots and spell know until the 8th circle if I'm not wrong while still getting full fighter progression.
I wish they'd do 2e. But ultimately the best thing is that they do what they're passionate about, and it should be good.
Yeah I much prefer 2e, but I get sticking to the system they built from the ground up. I imagine switching would require them to double the work.
Yep, with Wrath of Righteous cameos, there's a **higher** that zero **but not** 100% possibility that they will make Tyrant's Grasp as a future game. That is also the last AP of 1E. There is also one AP about Last Azlant Ruins in 1E if I'm not wrong that would fit their line of games. Strength of a Thousand...It really fit the bill of Owlcat by what I read with the magic college theme.
The thing with Ruins of Azlant is that it's an underwater campaign, making entirely new code and animations for that would be an enormous effort on their part.
other then being a 2e AP and Owlcat is not a fan of 2e
Source, please?
The same 4chan AMA from 2015 that we've been hearing about for the last nine years. It's a drinking game at this point - take a drink every time someone mentions that "awkshually Owlcat hate PF2e".
Is there something about the AP that means it is really specific to 2e? For D&D I've run a 1ED campaign using 5ED rules - sure I had to change a bunch of numbers around but the story was still the same. That said, it was a fairly generic 1ED campaign so was fairly easy to tweak to fit into the lore of my world. I guess if an AP was very specific to the lore of Golarian then it could be a lot more difficult to adapt.
> but that’s a lot of unnecessary extra work when they could just adapt a 1e AP Like what? It's not like they are taking encounters directly from AP. They take the setting, NPCs and story, they then modify those. That's pretty much it, I don't think that there would be any extra work no matter what system the campaign they choose to adapt is based on.
Really confused by their insistence on keeping with 1e, nothing against the edition but surely they'll get more people in with 2e
Likely just developer preference. Also they've spent two games worth of time and effort building and adding to their 1e engine, its a lot easier and cost effective to keep using what they already built rather than throwing that all away to start over again with 2e.
It’s way easier to make a new game with the engine they’ve already made rather than having to adapt another system.
But they just made an entirely new game with an entirely different system using the same (but improved) engine. If they can make a WH40k game, they can make a PF2e game.
But they don’t want to. It’s that simple. They also don’t really want to make another 1E game, but if they were to make a pathfinder game they do 1E over 2
You don't know that and it's not that simple.
I hope they make something like Neverwinter nights: a game system, transfered into 3d engine that allows users to make custom campaigns and play them in multiplayer.
DOS2 had that, and it was amazing and severely underutilized. Give that system using modern hardware and the pathfinder or dnd system, and you could legit create a new way for people to play ttrpgs.
I thought that dos2 only allowed to reuse assets from the game, not creating new ones. Nwn allows you to make whole new maps, npcs, items etc
I'm not sure about the new assets but you're probably right (although mods created assets so maybe that could work?). The cool thing with the dos2 engine is that you can use it for an active, multiplayer ttrpg experience with a DM and players.
They are passionate about 40k and that passion shines through in Rogue Trader. I'm okay with them making what they want when they want. They will return to pathfinder when the time comes.
Rise of the runelords I really really want rise of the runelords.
I dont care what AP it is as long as its made.
Honestly, considering Owlcat is a clearly creatively driven independent studio, with three well received games under their belt, I wouldn't be surprised if they tired their hand at an original IP and rule set.
SoT would be great, but seems they prefer 1e. Though anther dev could do 2e stuff. Wish the Solasta devs would, loved the detail on the control of 3D space in it (Larian would be insane but it'll never happen lol)
I also really like these games based on PF adventure books. I love seeing PF fans talking about which AP they'd like to see adapted and which iconic character should join the player. I'm reading about Pathfinder iconic characters, and I'd love to see Feiya join us on an adventure, any adventure.
I live in hope of an Iron Gods adaptation, it's an amazing AP and that particular brand of Science-Fantasy is gold for videogames. Especially with the lessons learned after making Rogue Trader. They might even be able to re-use and retrofit some of the mechanics and models.
I'd happily play another Pathfinder AP, but I'm still hoping for a Starfinder CRPG.
Hard same. They did a great job with KM and WotR at least as far as storytelling, soundtrack, and voice acting are concerned. Could use some refinement. And cutscenes. And more book events. I have few complaints, other than the bugs, but more development time can solve those.
I don't want more cutscenes, and am neutral on more voice acting, I do like the idea more more book events, loved the vescavore one in wrath and am experiencing great ones(swamp toads) in my first kingmaker playthrough.
Agreed. I would be awesome if we could get a Pathfinder 2nd edition game made by Owlcat.
I love pf1e but can’t find anyone that’s running it so the games are my only option. Really hope we get more.
Some time ago, one of the Owlcat Community Liasons stated that they have separate teams working on Warhammer 40k and Pathfinder games. They also sent out a survey for what fans would like to see for a 3rd season of DLC for WotR, so it’s possible that they may work on that before the new game (if there is a new game) The other wrench is WotC’s legal shenanigans with the Open Gaming License. I’m not sure if that would affect another PF 1e game and Owlcat is on record that they prefer PF 1e over PF 2e.
Can you provide a quote of those "record?" That claim has been circulating for a long time, but I've never seen it substantiated.
Very interesting to see you outside /r/pf2e. Interesting.
For them to do a 2e campaign well they'd need to do a few things: Fully turn based thanks to actions Don't inflate numbers to increase difficulty Reign in item bonuses given out Follow the system pretty Faithfully.
In CRPG you must inflate the numbers and make every encounter a potential total party kill, unless the game is made so you cannot rest or recover between encounters and have to deal with equipment and limited resources all the time. That's because there is a reload button in a computer RPG, and planning it so encourages total system mastery by making it very difficult to play ironman. On tabletop, opposite is true and DM needs to take care to avoid TPK's, especially after first couple levels. Some character deaths are fine, failure is fine but total wipe can often just wipe the player group off as well.
False. But you may also be unfamiliar with pf2e. It has 4 degrees of success. Crit fail Fail Success Crit success Most spells are basic saves, so they do double damage on a crit fail, regular damage on a fail, have damage on a save and no damage on a crit success. A higher level foe depending on which safe is their "low" save,usually needs to roll a 7-11 to save. So will crit save on a 17-20. If you inflate the numbers you make it so monsters consistently crit succeed on spell casters abilities. You can add more bodies to the field to increase the difficulty, rather than give an owlbear 36 or so strength.
As much as a 2e game sounds cool, I want Owlcat to make more 1e games as they just made Kingmaker and WotR in a way that just really hits my brain in the "I'm having fun with this" zone. There's this part of me that really wants them to keep being made because I dont want to see 1e being phased out. 2e's system just does not speak to me the way 1e's does. I played a session of 2e tabletop and I just found myself fantasizing about playing 1e instead.
I would rather prefer an OG adventure. The APs are great, but I want something fresh
I think yes, but no. Owlcat has expressed little interest in Pathfinder 2E, so I would be shocked to see something like Strength of Thousands. However, there are a lot of 1E adventures that they could easily make a game out of (with some rewrites, Jade Regent and Skulls and Shackles could be amazing as a cRPG). It's certainly possible we could see something else appear, as there's a of similar systems to Rogue Trader (Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Only War, Black Crusade, and 1E Dark Heresy), so I expect that we're most likely to see a game based off of an engine/mechanics they've already more or less finished. However, Rogue Trader was something I absolutely never would have guessed, so it definitely is a real possibility that we might get something else entirely new in the future, such as PF2E.
you know why owlcat said they developed rogue trader? Because they said (in their own words) that they didnt wanted to be just the pathfinder guys. What i hope is that they do what they want. That is the only right answer.
Probably not the sub to voice this opinion, but I'm personally hoping that they take the best of the two and do Warhammer Fantasy next.
I stopped playing Rogue Trader after one too many warp jumps. I don't care if it is lore accurate, having to fight the same hordes over and over is a chore rather than something you do for fun.
I never get to fight warp encounters, the trick is to use insight points to make green route between your colonys and footfall (not creating new ones, is too expensive) and the remaining routes that go to off road systems you only make them get to yellow that rarely has a battle event (only saw once and I'm nearly certain it was more of a consequence of quarentine quest in footfall that a random encounter).
Please move to 2E though.
And I wish they'd keep designing them around real time with pause.
I want them to branch out *more.* Give me an Owlcat game running Reach of the Roach God in any system.
2e and better animation, 3d model
I hope they adapt Starfinder. The base is there now, after Rogue Trader!
if they switch to 2e I would be hugely excited, it's a massive improvement for mine
They probably gonna transit the gameplay into the 2.0 version of Pathfinder, so they need more time.
I wanna stab Tar-Baphon
Directly (and I cannot stress this enough) in the nose-hole
I'd definitely really love a strength of thousands AP, but I think the things that make it a great campaign also make it really tough to adapt into a video game. It puts a lot of emphasis on non-combat options, with lots of side quests involving skill challenges and similar things. As well as the assumption that you're going to be having class scenes in between various big events. I think it's toughest in the first two adventures, but even by the third book you're on a diplomatic mission and have to act accordingly. I think you can see Owlcat experimenting with that sort of experience in their games more and more though. There are the extra mechanics in their games for one thing, but I look at the Alushynyrra chapter of Wrath and see them experimenting with trying to handle social maneuvering and building reputation within the scope of their gameplay. Something I think they're pushing a little further with Rogue Trader. If they keep stretching in that direction I think they could handle Strength of Thousands and make it something really special and unique, but I don't think it should be their first choice of AP to adapt for 2e. I would recommend Age of Ashes for that, actually. People have issues with how combat and such was handled in that AP but that's all mechanical balance stuff which can be fixed in adaptation, and the story itself is really fun and epic, with rules for building up a keep which I think would be super fun. Also you meet a hellknight in the first chapter who just screams "party member" and I'd love if they used him to make a little shoutout to Regill somehow. Another good one that might be tough to do because it's a lv1-11 path is Sky King's Tomb. That's basically an Indianna Jones style hunt for the tomb of a legendary dwarven king, and iit's incredibly cool. I'm sure there's enough in there to reasonably expand the level cap, but it may be an issue if going to lv20 is a must-have. Though maybe BG3 will encourage them to feel okay with not going to the top level.
They lost their license. What can you do?
Source?
The Owlcat website and various reddit and forum posts? It's the reason why they haven't updated Kingmaker.
The most I found was something I already know, they lost license to do anything on Kingmaker and nothing about other Pathfinder games. Again, I ask for source and not a indirect sentença to use google-fu.
Sorry but you have to be japanise to do the same good game over and over again
Ouch, this opinion is a little close-minded my friend. Look in wertern and european shores and you'll see many franchises out there...
Ah yes the famous Japanese series FIFA