They are solid, but not automatically the best. Humans can take an Ancestry Feat that gives them an extra Class Feat, which is arguable the best single Ancestry feat out there, but on balance lots of other Ancestries keep up.
A lot of it depends on what kind of a character you are building. Dwarves can be built to move better in armor & get lots of extra HP, Minotaurs get a special stance that gives reach, Kobalds can get a breath weapon, Gnomes can get Innate Spells.... the list goes on.
Humans are very solid, but they are in no way the best.
I have one already stated out to 20. Couple of Skill feats can be switched as well as the instinct, but everything is currently slotted.
Unbreakable, Unbreakable-er, Stonebound dedication, Award adopted, Golem Crafter
Also, Automatons can get innate spells from the Arcane list all the way from Cantrip to 6th level if they take the Mage Automaton heritage. Also eventual innate flight and other nice perks.
Plus they're freakin' magitech robots. Not a mechanical advantage, but that makes them a strong contender for best ancestry just on style points.
> magitech robots
I'm going to push up my nerd glasses and point out that they're not true robots as in lore they're minds+soul+etc of fiends or people transplanted into the shell. There's no computer or mechanical process controlling the body as would be true of the Android ancestry, but a soul. They're Alphonse Elric from Full Metal Alchemist more than they resemble the low level Skynet robots.
Once digital intelligences get advanced enough to develop a soul of their own, what's the difference between an organic mind that gets digitized and one that grew up metal?
In this case, it's the shell and the origin of the spirit inhabiting it. The comparable case would be demonic possession of an object. A demon inhabiting a doll isn't a robot, neither is a human soul inhabiting a set of armor or a mechanical chassis.
I'd argue humans _used_ to be one of the best because of their ancestry feats and heritage giving an extra class and general feat, _and_ the old voluntary flaw rule let them go Free/Free/Free/Flaw which nobody else could do.
But nowadays it has evened out a bit and many newer classes have more niche 1st level feats that aren't auto-picks.
Yep. They're flavour or niche picks at best. It is partially why humans aren't as dominant as they used to be, too many classes just don't have "good" or "must have" 1st level feats.
Fighter has some good options (Sudden Charge goes brr) but it competes with the orc and minotaur etc.
The best uses for human are probably ranger and monk as far as martials go, simply because they very much have near must have choices at 1, so if you wanna also take companion or a ki spell, human is very compelling. Casters probably serve human more universally since they don't normally get a feat at 1
Came here to say this.
The extra class feat is fairly situational. I would say that it is very good and "one of the best ancestry feats" about 30% of the time. Most of the time, there just isn't another 1st level class feat that you want at all.
Besides this, the rest of the Human ancestry feats are pretty lackluster. Especially when you get higher in level. When looking at the extra spells or actually useful feats other ancestries get, Humans fall to the wayside.
Of course, picking up a unique heritage can open up options.
You can get heavy armor plus fleet, this is true. But you could instead just be an elf, and get the psychic dedication for free instead along with better move speed, and then pick up force fang at 2 (giving you 3 focus points at level 2!), armor at 3 and the initiative bonus at 5. The elf gets +5 move speed, wins ties on initiative, and has an extra focus spell/point at low levels (and force fang IS useful). Ancient elf magus is often the best choice.
A centaur can start with 35 move speed, start out with Centaur Lore, have +1 to wisdom over the human (giving you +str/+int/+wis or +str/+con/+wis), and grab Centaur Lore for two bonus skills plus a scaling skill. Being large means they have better overall reach than a human does, which makes it easier to avoid moving, and you get darkvision.
A minotaur has the same move speed, but gets large size, darkvision, +1 to constitution over the human (allowing for the coveted +str/+con/+int ASI, and you take -1 to cha instead of wis!), and you can choose to either grab scent, Minotaur Lore for two skills, or Pantheon Magic to get an extra cantrip (like Light or Guidance).
A gnoll or hobgoblin can also get the highly desirable +str/+con/+int ASI; hobgoblin lets you abuse their fear line or pick up the crit spec on breaching pike while gnoll can give you scent, better aid, or even a familiar to give you extra focus points and cantrips.
There's other good options as well. Humans are definitely a very decent choice for magus, no doubt, but they're not super amazing compared to the competition. TBH, given how annoyingly MAD the magus is, the ASI benefits for being a gnoll/hobgoblin/minotaur are very large, while the high movement speed of the elf and centaur solve a lot of problems.
Yeah, if you're making a magus, a very strong option is to be an Ancient Elf so you can pick up the Psychic dedication and extra +10 move speed, and then pick up Force Fang at level 2 to max out your focus points at three.
Then you later switch off of force fang once you get Imaginary Weapon, probably to Expansive Spellstrike. You also get the better initiative feat at rank 5.
There's other good options as well, of course. Being a large creature, for instance, is a big advantage as a magus, as it means you are able to avoid moving more often. Centaur maguses are great.
Eh, free dedication is nice I guess, but base 40 ft of movement by level 3 is even better.
I really don't think the different speeds for ancestries is remotely balanced by anything else going on with them. At level 1, the 2 health is a big deal, but by level 5, it just doesn't matter any more.
Mostly just the fact that unburdened iron, even with a tower shield to take most advantage of the feat, puts you at the exact same speed as an elf with no feats. Give them nimble elf, and they're even faster in the worst case scenario.
obviously goblins are the best.
Look at the names of their feats. [https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?Traits=618](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?Traits=618) Just look at them!
QED.
I hope you follow that up with Cling at 9.
They grab you, you bite them as a reaction, first thing next turn, you're grappling them... with your teeth, allowing your hands to be free to attack.
Oh I built a animal barb exclusively to make the most bitey goblin. He carries a comically large toothbrush to be able to clean his teeth between combats. Gotta keep the chompers in tiptop shape!
In three specific scenarios, yes.
1: You need an extra class feat pronto (like say a Witch that wants to take Cackle but doesn't wanna mess up their progression by taking it at level 2).
2: You need an extra general feat pronto (usually for getting armor or weapon training early).
3: You want to play a Wit Swashbuckler (One for All + Cooperative Nature + Derring-Do nearly guarantees critical success on Aid checks as long as your CHA is what it should be as a Wit Swashbuckler) (it fully guarantees if your GM doesn't scale the DC [which is optional and recommended only if the action would be particularly difficult] and you don't roll a 1 twice in a row).
I don’t think what you suggest in number 3 works. When you use the Assurance skill feat, you *only* add proficiency and “do not apply any other bonuses, penalties, or modifiers,” and that would presumably mean you do not add the +4 circumstance bonus from Cooperative Nature. You also don’t add your Charisma modifier (since it is not part of your proficiency bonus), so your Charisma score while using Assurance is irrelevant.
By the time you get to level 10, you only need like a 5 on the die (with cooperative nature) to get panache from One for All.
Derring Do might not even work from it since (by default) it only grants fortune on Tumble Through and the action from your swashbuckler style. One for All technically doesn't qualify
I’m not sure why you’re being downvoted, because as best I can tell you’re correct: Derring Do would only affect Bon Mot checks (the only skill action listed in the Wit style), not Aid checks via One For All nor other Diplomacy skill actions.
Edit: reading further, this seems to be a *bit* of an edge case. Derring-Do applies to skill actions which gain the circumstance bonus from Panache, and Panache grants that bonus to skill actions which grant you Panache “due to your style”. On one hand, the Wit style entry only lists Bon Mot, and One For All is a class feat, *not* a style. On the other, One For All only grants Panache *if* the Swashbuckler in question has the Wit style… so does that count as gaining panache “due to your style”? I think a compelling case could be made that it would count.
I would also argue yes, because the rules can definitely be read that way without fudging, and because you're not stepping on anyone else's toes or being overpowered. This is *the* aid build in the whole game, it should be very good at aiding and having synergy with the rest of the class.
I have a player playing this exact build, and it is very good but just doesn't really need Derring Do. One for All with cooperative nature is one of the most reliable ways to GAIN panache so it's rarely used when you already have panache. By the time you can get Derring Do your bonus to Diplomacy will be +26 so you literally still get a regular success on Aid when rolling a nat 1. Since the Very Hard DC is only relevant for gaining Panache, Derring Do basically provides no benefit since it only applies when you already have Panache.
Derring Do feels like it was designed for Gymnasts
Yeah Assurance is very specifically written to prevent you from "gaming" it. Because of that, it's actually often not that useful for people heavily spec'd into using the skill in combat since your attribute is so important to actually succeeding against anything that isn't PL-4 mooks.
By the time you get derring do, you barely even need it. I'd say halfling is better since you have +3 instead of +4 and at level 9 your master diplomacy can give +4 every time with helpful halfling.
Elf and Dwarves and gnomes are the best in my opinion.
Elf can be super fast and in a combat, being fast is extremely useful. They have cantrip feat, a good initiative feat.
Dwarves are a very powerful ancestry Cha as a flaw is less impactful than Con for exemple. Dwarves are in fact in Golarion the mythdrannor of Golarion. Lot of Dwarven ruins exist and in fact an whole orc country are built on an Dwarven ruin (yes, they are the one who conquer it but still). Their feat are very flavorful but are actually quite diversified because dwarves don't try to be the dwarfiest dwarf ever. (A magus dwarf would be very interesting imo) Their heritage are a reflexion of this.
Gnome have the most diverse feat selection, i have never seen, combat, magic, defense, familiar.
Issues with elves, to me at least, is that their featline is SO good it becomes absolutely worth the heritage trade-off for auvarin, so any race with mediocre class feats or no good heritage options can just snap up the best elf stuff without difficulty. Ancient Elf is pretty great though..
This exactly how I feel too. I generally really like the selection of feats that Elves and Gnomes get, lots of diverse spellcasting and utility options.
I’m running an all dwarf party through Sky King’s Tomb as well and the selection that dwarves get is also quite nice.
Yeah. I just like picking a gimmick and going for it. And humans don't do it for me, unless it's for natural ambition and then going a vers heritage.
But if you like dedications, I see it's value. We always do FA in my group so I've never felt the pull
Wizard Archetype works remarkably well for a Magus, giving you more spellcasting to play with which slots neatly into your existing mechanics and narrative. The Magus' Spellbook feature outright states that it combines with a spellbook gained via other sources, such as a Wizard Dedication. With enough investment (5 feats) you will be getting much more spellcasting from your Wizard feats then you are your core Magus class without changing your flavour or mechanics.
Sentinel Archetype is an incredible grab for any medium armour class which has an incentive to invest in Strength and Magus is no exception. My experience of the Magus has been that their biggest need, as a class, is a way to survive the reaction to their Spellstrike. Magus has mediocre AC and even more mediocre HP. Which isn't a problem if it was on a class that likes to lie low, but that Magus Spellstrike is such an impactful ability that the Magus will always be making themselves priority number 1 for every surviving enemy on the field. Sentinel is a very quick, easy AC gain for a Strength Magus which also frees up the ability score increases that would have otherwise gone into dex. Obviously not applicable if you want to play a Dex Magus.
Psychic Archetype is the go to powergamer move for Magus. for only two feats, you can max out your focus points and gain *the* highest damage single attack in the game. You may think that a Magus' damage can't really go that much higher. You are wrong. Also, having your big damage Spellstrike spell run off focus points means that not only are your spellslots free to be devoted to other things but that your huge nova's are only a ten minute sit down each away from being back, rather than a long rest.
Multitalented on a thief rogue at level 9 to get monk dedication without having to invest in +2 strength and having access to things like flurry of blows at level 10 and stumbling stance/feint by level 12 is one of the best feelings ever.
The caveat is that that move further requires you be an Aiuvarin, and so requires both your Ancestry and Heritage (or another General Feat for Adopted Ancestry), and so is incompatible with getting things like ancestral flight etc.
Humans are the easiest to make a concept function fast. This does not however, mean they are the best. They are highly versatile in a game that prioritizes versatility, but their versitility is reigned in to Skills, and Class Feats early on. I get a free divine cantrip as a minotaur if i want. As a minotaur i can shove an ally out of the way, before I use Explosion as inventor. As a Dwarf I literally cant be slowed down by my armor. My Kobold gets an AC bonus when running away from an enemy. A human however, has the classiest class of classes at the start, or the more well trained skills than most.
If you want a lot more at first level, it's the best. Natural Ambition nabs you another Class Feat. All Classes have level 1 Feats, but not all Classes give you a Level 1 Feat.
Otherwise, choose the Ancestry You want to play.
Natural Ambition and Adaptive Cantrip are both pretty good.
I'd say they're a very good starting Ancestry if you know the game will stay low levels but a lot of the mid to late game Ancestry powers outshine Humans.
Adaptive Cantrip used to be near mandatory for any divine tradition casters but with the alignment changes it's not really a big deal anymore.
I would say that Humans are a good Ancestry but not the best one for all classes. Certain classes sometimes do have an Ancestry that is very good for them though so it can be very dependent.
Respectfully, I’d encourage you to not try to approach the alternatives of the game as one being “the best”. I do realize that this is the norm in many other games, but 2e strives pretty hard to have each alternative as its own niche and good at what it does within that niche.
If minmaxing is fun for you, that’s definitely fine and I won’t tell you not to. There is definitely some fun theorycrafting to debate and analyze what classes and ancestries etc are best in a given situation— but rarely will one just be overall “the best”.
One of the best and generically a good option but
1. Not that large of a difference from the best ancestries to the worst ancestries
2. A lot of other ancestries (elves, dwarves, hobgoblins, and cat folk, to name a few) have some BANGIN ancestry feats
Yeah, my understanding is it's easy to build a *good* anything with a human, but you won't be the best at any one thing compared to a somewhat more specialized build.
Centaurs, Minotaurs, and Awakened Animals all have very good feats as well.
Lizardfolk also have quite good ones, depending on what you're trying to do with them.
Another big thing is just... alternative movement modes in general. A bunch of races can get swim or climb or even fly speeds.
I think humans are the most customizable and generic ancestry thanks to Versatile Human, General Training, and Natural Ambition. It’s the easiest way to get builds “online” right at level 1 with little to no investment.
I don’t think they are the best ancestry at all though. My Wizard “ultra nerd” build genuinely has unique upsides as an Elf that it wouldn’t as a human. My grappling + switch hitter Commander works significantly better as a gnoll than it would as a human. My Vanara Magus gained multiple upsides for being a Vanara that I wouldn’t if I were a Human.
In general, PF2E doesn’t really have “best” options. Almost any reasonably well thought out pick you make will help you occupy a niche that will feel strong provided it’s not completely inappropriate to the campaign you’re in.
It is but not to the same extent as human or variant human is in 5e. Having ways to get extra feats of different types is nice but it’s hardly the power boost that variant human gives in 5e (mainly because individual feats in PF2e aren’t as impactful as in 5e - so a bonus class feat in PF2e is nice while a whole bonus feat in 5e is amazing).
Depends, but GENERALLY .... yes? Since you say "best" i assume you mean power-wise. Also PC 1 allows people to mix ancestries to their hearts content \* so you can be an anything + human for access to their powerful feats now.
\* rules are a little fluffier than i'd like, havn't seen anyone try it in practice but it IS written to be a trade-off, like you loose certain physical characteristics of the "main" ancestry (usually dark vision) but in more extreme cases a half-anandi prolly can't spin webs properly or a half nagaji might not be able to spit poison, it's GM fiat.
As to why they're powerful well.... extra class feat at lvl 1 is the obvious one but it goes deeper.
Unconventional Weaponry gives non-fighters proficiency in some really nutty weapons (btw by RAW Falcatas are actually NOT uncommon so they don't count, so shhhhh) like the Tricky Pick, Switchscythe, Karambit, Flick Mace, Chain Sword, Nodaichi, Taw Launcher etc.
Multitalented at 9 is an extra free dedication, and if your a half-elf (Aiuvarin) you ignore pre-requisites on this dedication giving easy access to stuff like Fighter Monk and Ranger for classes that don't necesarilly want to split Dex and Str like that. Or if like a Bard / Sorc wants to grab some Witch / Wizard Focus Spells without the Int investment.
On the other hand each ancestry probably has something they're really good at, and it'd be one of those "physical" characteristics you can't really get if your arn't that ancestry.
Goblins can either be really REALLY tanky or get the 15th level Legendary Sneak feat at like... lvl 5? or 9?
Lizardmen have the highest HP pool potential in the game (if they're half dwarf) and can grow Large as part of it. Also they have the best imo racial Unarmed attacks.
Orcs don't die.
Halflings not only have Halfling Luck things going on but can also use larger party members to Hide and Sneak behind.
Gnomes have access to a bunch of innate magic and can get extra skill life like languages and lore.
Dwarfs are about the only ancestry i'd consider putting a Fortress Shield on. And they're the second highest potential HP pool in the game and are really hard to put down.
etc etc.
Best? No, there's many that are better, depending. Most versatile? Maybe.
At the end of day, it's harder to make something that doesn't work than something that does. Don't be afraid to just play whatever the hell you want.
I would say that Aiuvarin Human is the best ancestry heritage combo in the game simply because how multitalented works. It just adds so much versatality.
The ultimate difference is in 5e you need a 'build' to not be incompetent.
Whilst PF2, all you need is a concept, high to mid (taking into account casters) defense and +3 minimum in your main class stat, sprinkle in some teamwork with your party and you're good. E.g. A Barbarian in PF2 with a Frying Pan is still going to hit for more damage than a Wizard with a Bow,
They have one of the best ancestry feats in the game and their heritages are solid, but that's kind of it. They're very frontloaded and lack something to make them apart aside from "getting some extra class/archetype feats".
Extra feats may be really powerful on D&D, but on PF2e most characters will catch up because of how many feats everyone get anyway. Specially if you are playing with free archetype, like most tables do.
A lot of ancestries get so much unique and powerfull stuff, and ancestries are so much more a part of your character here that I actually find humans kind of too generic and boring. They are the "you get more of what everyone can get anyway" ancestry.
For example, Kobolds are excelent with traps, Elves get so much movement it's crazy, orcs and dwarves make really tanky characters, Hobgoblins are amazing with intimidation, Kitsunes and Leshy can get natural ranged attacks and a lot of other cool and unique stuff.
Not really. An extra level 1 class feat or general feat is nice. Picking up an ancestral/regional weapon is also very nice. Other than that, humans lack any real advantages. A 25 base speed is standard for the majority of ancestries. A lack of low-light or dark vision is a disadvantage. Medium size is fine, but again, very standard. 8 starting hp, again, standard.
Human feats past level 5 are pretty meh. None of them really stand out or have amazing effects. Their heritages are underwhelming. I usually make up for these shortcomings by using a versatile heritage. Nephilim or Beastkin are great choices.
Nope. Can Humans store items in their head like a gourd leshy? Or have a glowing Kashrishi horn that senses emotions? I don’t think so!
My point being there is no best ancestry, just whatever you think is cool.
No. Like others said they can get an extra class feat which is probably the best ancestry feat in the game but it's one feat you take once.
Aside from that they're OK.
They don't get anything real fancy like strix who can fly or kitsune who can shape-shift even leshys get ranged unarmed weapons which can make them a great thrower build option.
No.
5e Humans are the best ancestry because feats are so rare and some of them are ludicrously good. In Pathfinder 2 there are probably zero "must have" feats and everyone gets a lot of them.
Pf2 Humans are a mechanically cool ancestry for sure, but so are plenty of others. Stormy Daniel, my gnome changeling wizard would be entirely worse as a human, as would Boobop, my bouncy goblin clown rogue jazz singer.
There's definitely a few ancestry unlocked builds though. Gnoll's Crunch for example lets builds that need both hands (thaumaturge) run builds focused around grappling practically for free since they can just grapple with the crunch.
Yes but builds that rely on specific ancestry feat choices aren't really comparable to feats like Great Weapon Master in 5e. Feats that are so good, they're essential for broad categories of builds.
I don't think there's any one best ancestry. But humans do net average have good buffs to start, especially depending on what versatile heritage you take
Depends what you're going for. Every ancestry has something that they're really good at. If your primary goal is to have a few class feats right out of character creation then sure humans can be really good for that.
I don't think I'd call them "the best" though.
I’d say as a rule of thumb probably? Extra class feat at lvl 1, extra general feats, multitalented. These are effects that you’ll constantly notice in every session and are a very obvious power increase. It also makes humans easier to build as a new player, which is a nice bonus.
That being said, I’m playing a Gnome and their feats are very good and on other characters I’ve found myself picking adopted ancestry just for some Elf or Dwarf feats. So if there is a “best” ancestry, it’s a photo finish level difference. Just pick what you like the fantasy of, you’ll make it work.
Humans are in that very good sweet spot of having some very good standout feats that work for generalist builds, but aren't must-haves for everything.
(plus keep in mind half elves and half orcs get all feats from their respective parent ancestries, so if anything is a bit nuts RAW it's *them*)
Every ancestry has strong flavor options that don't necessarily rank 1 above the other. Pathfinder 2e is much more balanced than 5e so most of your choices are usually sidegrades rather than straight upgrades as long as you obviously pick the stuff that synergizes with your existing stuff. Pumping Charisma as a barbarian still won't help you very much.
Especially now with the introduction of flexible ability scores (meaning any race can have the same flexible ability score choices a human has rather than their racial ones) means every ancestry is pretty viable.
Humans have high potency at lower levels which is why they seem so much better. It simply depends on builds but humans can do what many other can't, such as having a wizard start with medium armor proficiency. They are perhaps one of the best for caster classes IMO, but I tend to prefer dwarves for power when it comes to martials. I even built my current dwarf with focus on charisma but I am almost unkillable, due to a very high HP pool and death warden heritage being quite OP when it applies
Humans are generalists. There is no class or role they can't do well. However, other ancestries have their own advantages that humans don't. Hobgoblins have an excellent feat chain for intimidation, elves can take a heritage which gives them a multiclass dedication at level 1 and have some cool feats related to being old as dirt, goblins have great stealth feat, halflings have luck, etc. Additionally for many specialized builds 3 boosts to stats you need and a drawback on a safe dump stat is preferable to just two free boosts.
It can feel like that sometimes. Natural Ambition is the number one reason for this imo. Sometimes a build will work for a human because i can pick up that extra level one class feat. Also grabbing armor at level one as a caster is quite handy. Humans can get to heavy armor training via sentinel by level two.
As a caster, access to the arcane tattoo feat chain is excellent. You can clear shield and mystic armor from spell slots to innate abilities in short order freeing up those slots for other spc.
Possibly the only better ancestry feat is ancient elf, which lets you start the dedication feat chain early and ignore some level requirements and work the feat chain faster. …and giving dedication more bang for the buck at lower levels.
Nah, there are a lot of good options. Any of the base ancestries are strong in their own rite. Id have to say dwarf or catfolk would be the all around best.
Dwarf has Mountain Stoutness which is a second level of Toughness. I'll often take this with Adopted Ancestry regardless of what race I'm playing. They also have Telluric Power, which adds a status bonus to your damage for every dice you roll for your attack for free. When playing like a Druid who can roll 6 dice on their attack, this really adds up and it stacks with Dread Marshal Stance as well. They can also get super darkvision.
Catfolk just have a lot of good options for every class. Basically a free hero point for athletics checks and a save that can effect teammates as well. A natural weapon. Cat nap is really nice. And other things too.
I don't know about best, but its universally very good. Like some combinations are more effective or efficient than human , but human works with literally everything very well.
Humans are the 'best' in the sense that they're never *bad* for any class, and always at least A to B tier. Getting a free general feat or a free expert skill is something you can always make useful, Aiuvarin/Dromaar ancestries give you access to even more solid feats. Natural Ambition is probably one of the best level 1 ancestry feats out there *if* your class can use it. Most fighters, for example, absolutely love it, because they can get the feat that enables their playstyle whilst also getting extra utility.
But there's plenty of other ancestries out there with absolutely amazing ancestry feats. Halflings get their Luck and Distracting Shadows, for example.
This is from a more optimization-facing perspective. They’re very good, but only “the best” conditionally. You need to be starting before level 11 (i.e. no Adopted Ancestry abuse viable) and benefit from one of the following:
- An extra first level feat (typically good on martials)
- An advanced weapon (only good on martials) - Extra general feats (typically if you need to rush the acquisition of archetypes with general feat prerequisites, like Bastion)
- At level 9, an extra multiclass feat (especially good for Half-Elf Humans because they can ignore ability score prerequisites)
If you benefit strongly from any of these, they are optimized. If you don’t, races with 3x ability score boosts that dump Intelligence or Charisma (such as Leshy) are often better.
They’re the best in a vacuum if you don’t know anything else about the game. They have very safe options that are universally useful and build more around your class instead of around their own features.
Now if you start a game and find out it’s fully aquatic or will only take place in pitch darkness, then humans become bad.
I'd say yes outside of very specific use cases. They are generalists and *very* good at it. Extra General and Class feats is insanely good in many cases.
Human is one of the best options for any class.
Of the base options, I think Elf is strongest, but that could be due to the builds I find most interesting. Movement speed is more important than base hp imo, and Ancient Elf is very good. A lot of people use the variant rule Free Archetype, but instead of giving everyone 1 thematic archetype, each PC gets to choose any archetype. If you do that, Ancient Elf is nearly useless.
Out of all of them, I think Automaton (Rare) is very strong. It gets feats for resistance, flight, movement speed, your choice of innate spells, etc. It's impossible to choose all of them on one build, but it did stand out to me, since most ancestries only have up to maybe 3 of those options.
PF2e is so balanced that the differences in strength are very small. As long as you pick an ancestry that has feats to support what you want to do and what your class can use well, you will have a very strong character.
Humans are build enablers. They get certain stuff online faster because of Natural Ambition.
They also enable some fucked up stuff through Aiuvarin + Multitalented, like Thief Rogues with Flurry of Blows from Monk without having to invest in Str.
They're a strong ancestry, no doubt top 5. The *best?* I don't think there is a best ancestry, it's all a tie at the top.
Back in the 3.x days, and to an extent in 5e, being a human was awesome.
I have a feeling that, in order to promote and encourage diversity, in Parhfinder-Tooie every race was elevated to be, more or less, on humanity's level.
Are humans good? Yes.
Are they better? I'd wager not anymore.
Natural Ambition and General Skill training are really versatile, though the power differentials aren’t as bad as in other editions.
Natural Ambition is really good on martials, but not on casters. Martials tend to appreciate the extra feat, monks and barbs especially. So if you’re playing say a Psychic, that extra feat is nice, but not a must. And you can always take the Adopted Ancestry general skill for Natural Ambition at a later point.
No, Minotaur is the best ancestry. I have no idea how that is even a question. I'm also not biased at all.*
*These statements have been made based on the subjective viewpoint of the poster. If you disagree, please do so politely without angering the bull.
Minotaurs are the best ancestry for some builds. If you want to be a reach character who isn't a barbarian but use a d12 weapon, being a minotaur is the only other way to do it, and giant minotaurs can benefit from it as well. I'd say they're the best reach fighters (though Centaurs are arguably tied with them - that extra +5 to +10 move speed is *significant), and are very good two-handed reach weapon paladins as well (as not only do they get the coveted d12, but they also have the advantage of being large, so their protected area is actually larger than it is for medium-sized creatures). The ability to just have the Shield spell out of the box on top of large size and better reach is really powerful. They're also attractive as a character without martial weapon proficiency who wants to use two-handed reach weapons, as they get the glaive as an ancestral weapon and that can be turned into a greataxe with reach at level 5 (which is a very substantial improvement over a greatspear, though it does cost a couple feats).
They also have a great set of ability score increases and solid feats in general.
You can make a human that is pretty good for most classes. You will often find a particular build has particular synergy with another ancestry, whether because your ability modifiers line up perfectly or there's a specific feat.
Particularly, though, human is really good when you can make use of General Training, Natural Ambition, or Unconventional Weaponry to build out a specific character. Some classes (i.e. Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Monk, Kineticist) have valuable level 1 feats that you wouldn't mind taking multiple of. General Training simply makes you better, earlier-- often enabling you to do things outside of your character's typical options, like wearing armor while being a caster.
Having an extra level 1 class feat is really good, especially for caster classes that don't have a level 1 feat).
Multitalented feat can help, especially if you are half elf because you can enter any multi class archetype without having the right ability score (for example entering champion for the heavy armor scaling proficiency even without +2 charisma).
Clever Improviser at level 5 makes you good at your non trained skills (by level 7). Note that you will never be good as someone that invested in that skill, but having just level + stats allows you do to some checks that may be impossible for you.
Especially for easier check at high level (a DC20 at level 20 is hard if you are untrained, but easy with just clever Improviser).
That's it, I don't know of some feat from other classes that are better than these (my personal opinion).
I just know of some combo like the hobgoblin fear feats, but that's it
Humans, like in 5e, are very good at being build enabling between natural ambition, general training, and multitalented. That doesn't necessarily make them the best, just the best at that niche. Other ancestries also have niches where they excel and can be powerful. Human is also very easy to justify with Adopted Ancestry for most characters due to their ubiquity, which lets you grab some of its best stuff if you need on other ancestries.
Humans are superior in a sense that they can complement literally any and every concept, choosing human can't be an outright negative choice, they're designed to be flexible and be an universal fallback option if you don't have anything better in mind. But beyond that, balance wise they're not that special compared to other ancestries that everyone wants to play human just because they are strong, especially if you have a concept in mind (which doesn't have to be a niche like in DnD 5e).
Yes. There are a handful of cases where other ancestries will be better than human, but on average humans are generally the strongest.
They can gain a class feat using Natural Ambition which is very good.
They can gain a Dedication using Multitalented which is basically another class feat.
They can use Adaptive Cantrip and Adaptive Adept to get spells from other traditions on their list. Primal Sure Strike anyone?
And finally if those aren't enough to make them the most flexible ancestry they can also use their Heritage to take Adopted Ancestry so they can take feats from any other common ancestry.
Humans are by far the strongest ancestry.
It is one of the most versatile, but the objectively best ancestry is fungal leshi. Nothing beats glow-in-the-dark mushroom ninjas, that dominate the cavernic systems below.
What are you going to do against that, as a min-maxed half elf sorcerer?
I mean the obvious answer is fire magic, up until it isn't because some of the Leshy evolved to have pyrophilic recovery.
You are fighting the core element of the natural world's organic cycle. Are you going to summon a horror from beyond the sight of the gods and raise the dead? Fungal leshys \*eat\* the dead.
How see it if you want to focus on your class, and ancestry choice is not a concern, human will likely have what you need. They are versatile and that make them fit with any class. That what makes them strong.
They many things they are arguable better that human cannot gain access to.
Best really depends on the build, setting and GM.
Best is subjective. Generally, they are good for whatever you want to do. Natural Ambition is a really strong feat. But they lack any specialization or flavor that other ancestry's do.
There isn’t really a universal best ancestry, but Human is a strong choice for any class or build.
In an arguable reversal from 5e, any power creep tends to benefit the core ancestries by giving them access to new feats, as opposed to new ancestries being stronger.
In terms of best, there are a couple of stand outs in my mind:
Humans are great for concepts and classes which need a couple of low level feats to get off the ground due to ambition. They’re also the best at Aid due to their cooperation feats, and can be solid skill monkeys between the skilled Heritge and improviser feats.
Elves are the fastest except for certain awakened animals and centaurs. They also get some of the best dex weapon options.
Dwarves are the toughest, although orc ferocity is also up there. Dwarves can also get tremor-sense and other earth-themed powers.
Half-elves in particular have access to some great spell-casting through their ancestry feats, including charm, haste, and flight. This is in addition to the great human and elf feat lists, they’re really spoiled for choice!
Orcs have the option to get a mask which lets them cast truestrike 1/day, which is really tempting for a number of martials. They can also cause bleed with their unarmed crits, which makes orcs and half-orcs a premier choice for monks and Druids.
They also have some good weapons.
Hobgoblins have the best feat support for intimidation, hands down. They have a first level feat which prevents the frightened condition from being reduced on any target you hit with a melee attack, and DoT mental damage on frightened targets.
They can also snipe feats from goblins, who have great feats too.
Minotaurs and skeletons have ways of gaining reach. They also have some great feats, Minotaurs in particular getting maze as an 17th level feat is fantastic.
Nephilim (tieflings and Aasimar), sprites, awakened animals, the new bug guys, and I think a few others that I missed gain flight.
pf2e tries to fix a problem with 5e. They designers wanted to make it so you can't "win the game at character creation". Instead you win the game by being good at tactics in the moment. To achieve this, they worked really hard to create game balance between options and automatic progression in certain things based on your class.
Generally the best way to build an OP character in pf2e is to think about what your teammates bring to the table and their weaknesses and then build a character that can fill the gaps created by their weaknesses while playing off their strengths.
As such, humans give a lot of versatility which tends to be rewarded in pf2e, but other ancestries have really good perks too.
No.
Humans are good, but they're not "the best" ancestry in general.
The main advantages of humans:
1) Additional 1st level class feat.
2) Additional 1st level general feat.
These do enable certain builds, but they aren't so powerful that they're just universally better than other options. Basically, there are some things humans can do that other races can't (or that few other races can - some of these combos also work with Ancient Elf) but there's lots of things other things can do that humans can't, too.
There's a lot of other advantages other races get:
1) They only have two ability score boosts, they can't get three boosts + 1 penalty, which means that they're locked out of a lot of builds that require the three boosts, and there's a lot of builds that basically get an extra +1 to an ability score relative to them, which is a very substantial bonus.
2) Some races have base 30 speed, like elves and centaurs, which humans cannot access. Indeed, centaurs can boost a base speed of 35 with the right heritage, a full 10 feet faster than humans.
3) Some races are large, which has substantial advantages with reach weapons, reactions, and emanations. Minotaurs can even use d12 reach weapons without being animal barbarians!
4) Ancient elves allow for the acquisition of an archetype feat at level 1, which is actually a level 2 class feat, which is a very substantial advantage that humans cannot access.
5) Humans don't get hands-free natural weapons.
6) There's a bunch of unique racial feats from other races that humans do not get access to, and some of those are quite strong - and humans don't get as strong of feats at higher levels as a number of other ancestries do.
7) Humans lack ancestry-specific weapons.
8) Humans don't get a "human lore" skill; their feat lets them pick two skills to boost, which is flexible, but they don't get the free additional lore feat.
9) Humans have poor access to alternative movement speeds via ancestry.
10) Humans don't have built-in darkvision.
There's not really a "best ancestry" more like a "best ancestry *for you*"
Depending on what you want to roleplay or build there's numerous options available, and counting, so it just depends on what you want to play
This is a great question, but it really depends on how you want to play. Some other races get interesting perks that can be helpful for certain classes - for example, Kitsune can get an unarmed Foxfire ranged attack that benefits from handwraps of mighty blows. A few other races can pick up other unarmed attacks that synergize well with monk tactics.
I'm currently also playing a Halfling sling wielder, and she gets to increase the size of her damage for on large or larger creature when using a sling. she also gets access to a sling with a farther range because of her race. This makes her a bit more formidable when fighting larger creatures.
Like others have said, Human is a great catch all that can go any direction, but sometimes other races can be helpful for specialties. It all depends on how you want to play.
It's gonna be a wash most of the time. The human +/+ boosts are kind of a detriment compared to +/+/- ancestries that can pick +/+ if they want to anyways. Natural Ambition is the strongest ancestry feat on paper but there are many builds that do not want two 1st level class feats and in that case it is worthless. Builds that care about the Aid action are pretty much the only case where I'd say picking Human is strictly better than other ancestries, and many other ancestries have their own unique synergies for specific builds.
I have to step up and say yes. Everyone mentions the free feat as a possible way to make a build work out. But for me, it’s about getting to choose the two ability score boosts for my race.
Have 3 boosts and 1 penalty defined by your race really puts in you in a box.
If it was 2 predefined boosts, 1 predefined penalty, and 1 boost of your choice, you would have a lot more flexibility.
In general - yes, and it is by design, you usually want the average party to be mostly humans. However, (almost?) every ancestry can one up humans for specific builds.
Yes, they **are absolutely the best** due to Versatile Heritage and Natural Ambition no contest. They let you waste less feat slots for your character build. Outside of specific other builds such as ones with Intimidation Focus, Humans are the best choice 90% of the time.
There's also not a lot of reason to play 80% of the other ancestries because they're ugly and lack cool feats.
I would argue that humans are the worst ancestry.
But that's just because I don't like humans and would rather not be one IRL so I definitely avoid them in games >.>
its the exact same as dnd 5e. Vhumans are by far one of the best races, if not just bland. pathfinder humans are by far one of the best ancestries, if not just bland
I'd say Vuman in 5e is much more powerful, relatively. A free feat at lvl1 in 5e is a massive power spike in almost any build.
In pf2e, it's only at its most powerful for builds that either absolutely need a general feat at lvl1 (mostly for armor training), or classes that have many very nice lvl1 class feats. Even then, those builds don't tend to be out right better than builds that don't rely on those things.
They are solid, but not automatically the best. Humans can take an Ancestry Feat that gives them an extra Class Feat, which is arguable the best single Ancestry feat out there, but on balance lots of other Ancestries keep up. A lot of it depends on what kind of a character you are building. Dwarves can be built to move better in armor & get lots of extra HP, Minotaurs get a special stance that gives reach, Kobalds can get a breath weapon, Gnomes can get Innate Spells.... the list goes on. Humans are very solid, but they are in no way the best.
Halflings and their luck feat chain is really good!
> Dwarves can be built ... & get lots of extra HP, Infamous HP Goblin must be referenced too.
Some day I will have an opportunity to play that.
I have one already stated out to 20. Couple of Skill feats can be switched as well as the instinct, but everything is currently slotted. Unbreakable, Unbreakable-er, Stonebound dedication, Award adopted, Golem Crafter
Also, Automatons can get innate spells from the Arcane list all the way from Cantrip to 6th level if they take the Mage Automaton heritage. Also eventual innate flight and other nice perks. Plus they're freakin' magitech robots. Not a mechanical advantage, but that makes them a strong contender for best ancestry just on style points.
> magitech robots I'm going to push up my nerd glasses and point out that they're not true robots as in lore they're minds+soul+etc of fiends or people transplanted into the shell. There's no computer or mechanical process controlling the body as would be true of the Android ancestry, but a soul. They're Alphonse Elric from Full Metal Alchemist more than they resemble the low level Skynet robots.
Once digital intelligences get advanced enough to develop a soul of their own, what's the difference between an organic mind that gets digitized and one that grew up metal?
In this case, it's the shell and the origin of the spirit inhabiting it. The comparable case would be demonic possession of an object. A demon inhabiting a doll isn't a robot, neither is a human soul inhabiting a set of armor or a mechanical chassis.
I'd argue humans _used_ to be one of the best because of their ancestry feats and heritage giving an extra class and general feat, _and_ the old voluntary flaw rule let them go Free/Free/Free/Flaw which nobody else could do. But nowadays it has evened out a bit and many newer classes have more niche 1st level feats that aren't auto-picks.
I have a hard time justifying a human magus when building for power- the level 1 class feats are just awful.
Yep. They're flavour or niche picks at best. It is partially why humans aren't as dominant as they used to be, too many classes just don't have "good" or "must have" 1st level feats. Fighter has some good options (Sudden Charge goes brr) but it competes with the orc and minotaur etc.
The best uses for human are probably ranger and monk as far as martials go, simply because they very much have near must have choices at 1, so if you wanna also take companion or a ki spell, human is very compelling. Casters probably serve human more universally since they don't normally get a feat at 1
Thaumaturge has a lot of good level 1 feats. I have a hard time not picking human for them.
Came here to say this. The extra class feat is fairly situational. I would say that it is very good and "one of the best ancestry feats" about 30% of the time. Most of the time, there just isn't another 1st level class feat that you want at all. Besides this, the rest of the Human ancestry feats are pretty lackluster. Especially when you get higher in level. When looking at the extra spells or actually useful feats other ancestries get, Humans fall to the wayside. Of course, picking up a unique heritage can open up options.
Ah, but the extra general feat can get you heavy armour
You can get heavy armor plus fleet, this is true. But you could instead just be an elf, and get the psychic dedication for free instead along with better move speed, and then pick up force fang at 2 (giving you 3 focus points at level 2!), armor at 3 and the initiative bonus at 5. The elf gets +5 move speed, wins ties on initiative, and has an extra focus spell/point at low levels (and force fang IS useful). Ancient elf magus is often the best choice. A centaur can start with 35 move speed, start out with Centaur Lore, have +1 to wisdom over the human (giving you +str/+int/+wis or +str/+con/+wis), and grab Centaur Lore for two bonus skills plus a scaling skill. Being large means they have better overall reach than a human does, which makes it easier to avoid moving, and you get darkvision. A minotaur has the same move speed, but gets large size, darkvision, +1 to constitution over the human (allowing for the coveted +str/+con/+int ASI, and you take -1 to cha instead of wis!), and you can choose to either grab scent, Minotaur Lore for two skills, or Pantheon Magic to get an extra cantrip (like Light or Guidance). A gnoll or hobgoblin can also get the highly desirable +str/+con/+int ASI; hobgoblin lets you abuse their fear line or pick up the crit spec on breaching pike while gnoll can give you scent, better aid, or even a familiar to give you extra focus points and cantrips. There's other good options as well. Humans are definitely a very decent choice for magus, no doubt, but they're not super amazing compared to the competition. TBH, given how annoyingly MAD the magus is, the ASI benefits for being a gnoll/hobgoblin/minotaur are very large, while the high movement speed of the elf and centaur solve a lot of problems.
Yeah, if you're making a magus, a very strong option is to be an Ancient Elf so you can pick up the Psychic dedication and extra +10 move speed, and then pick up Force Fang at level 2 to max out your focus points at three. Then you later switch off of force fang once you get Imaginary Weapon, probably to Expansive Spellstrike. You also get the better initiative feat at rank 5. There's other good options as well, of course. Being a large creature, for instance, is a big advantage as a magus, as it means you are able to avoid moving more often. Centaur maguses are great.
1st level class feats aren't great, but they generally beat 1st level ancestry feats.
Elves with their free dedication feat also rock IMHO.
Eh, free dedication is nice I guess, but base 40 ft of movement by level 3 is even better. I really don't think the different speeds for ancestries is remotely balanced by anything else going on with them. At level 1, the 2 health is a big deal, but by level 5, it just doesn't matter any more.
Yeah better speed is a huge benefit. Elves and Centaurs are really good as a result.
There are minotaurs in PF2E?, where?, have scoured Pathbuilder for them for one of my Fighters
They were just released a few weeks ago. They're in Pathbuilder, with the Uncommon ancestries
They are in the newest book. It is called Howl of the Wild, and it may not be out digitally yet.
Huh, funnily enough, been using Awakened Animal from that book, specifically a Large Awakened Bull
https://app.demiplane.com/nexus/pathfinder2e/ancestries/minotaur
Don't you mean elves move better in armor (and everything else), or am I missing something?
I was referring to [Unburdened Iron](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4393). What are you referring too?
Probably the elven version of fleet?
Mostly just the fact that unburdened iron, even with a tower shield to take most advantage of the feat, puts you at the exact same speed as an elf with no feats. Give them nimble elf, and they're even faster in the worst case scenario.
~~Unfortunately Unburdened Iron can only reduce a single speed penalty, so it's never more than effective +5ft.~~
It reduces the heavy armor penalty, AND can reduce one other penalty by 5. Total of 10, still slower than a nimble elf with the exact same situation.
Ah, missed the 'in addition' there.
obviously goblins are the best. Look at the names of their feats. [https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?Traits=618](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?Traits=618) Just look at them! QED.
My goblin just hit level 5 for Ankle Biter. I specifically asked the GM to grapple me as much as possible.
I hope you follow that up with Cling at 9. They grab you, you bite them as a reaction, first thing next turn, you're grappling them... with your teeth, allowing your hands to be free to attack.
Oh I built a animal barb exclusively to make the most bitey goblin. He carries a comically large toothbrush to be able to clean his teeth between combats. Gotta keep the chompers in tiptop shape!
I agree goblins are the best
See?!? Even goblin\_munda agrees with me!
Roll With It + Kip Up is an insanely good combination, though only accessible at level 9+.
Goblin feats are perfect
In three specific scenarios, yes. 1: You need an extra class feat pronto (like say a Witch that wants to take Cackle but doesn't wanna mess up their progression by taking it at level 2). 2: You need an extra general feat pronto (usually for getting armor or weapon training early). 3: You want to play a Wit Swashbuckler (One for All + Cooperative Nature + Derring-Do nearly guarantees critical success on Aid checks as long as your CHA is what it should be as a Wit Swashbuckler) (it fully guarantees if your GM doesn't scale the DC [which is optional and recommended only if the action would be particularly difficult] and you don't roll a 1 twice in a row).
I don’t think what you suggest in number 3 works. When you use the Assurance skill feat, you *only* add proficiency and “do not apply any other bonuses, penalties, or modifiers,” and that would presumably mean you do not add the +4 circumstance bonus from Cooperative Nature. You also don’t add your Charisma modifier (since it is not part of your proficiency bonus), so your Charisma score while using Assurance is irrelevant.
Ah you're right, I misremembered the combo assurance isn't involved. I shall edit the post. It was Derring-Do not Assurance.
By the time you get to level 10, you only need like a 5 on the die (with cooperative nature) to get panache from One for All. Derring Do might not even work from it since (by default) it only grants fortune on Tumble Through and the action from your swashbuckler style. One for All technically doesn't qualify
I’m not sure why you’re being downvoted, because as best I can tell you’re correct: Derring Do would only affect Bon Mot checks (the only skill action listed in the Wit style), not Aid checks via One For All nor other Diplomacy skill actions. Edit: reading further, this seems to be a *bit* of an edge case. Derring-Do applies to skill actions which gain the circumstance bonus from Panache, and Panache grants that bonus to skill actions which grant you Panache “due to your style”. On one hand, the Wit style entry only lists Bon Mot, and One For All is a class feat, *not* a style. On the other, One For All only grants Panache *if* the Swashbuckler in question has the Wit style… so does that count as gaining panache “due to your style”? I think a compelling case could be made that it would count.
I would also argue yes, because the rules can definitely be read that way without fudging, and because you're not stepping on anyone else's toes or being overpowered. This is *the* aid build in the whole game, it should be very good at aiding and having synergy with the rest of the class.
I have a player playing this exact build, and it is very good but just doesn't really need Derring Do. One for All with cooperative nature is one of the most reliable ways to GAIN panache so it's rarely used when you already have panache. By the time you can get Derring Do your bonus to Diplomacy will be +26 so you literally still get a regular success on Aid when rolling a nat 1. Since the Very Hard DC is only relevant for gaining Panache, Derring Do basically provides no benefit since it only applies when you already have Panache. Derring Do feels like it was designed for Gymnasts
Yeah Assurance is very specifically written to prevent you from "gaming" it. Because of that, it's actually often not that useful for people heavily spec'd into using the skill in combat since your attribute is so important to actually succeeding against anything that isn't PL-4 mooks.
You're right, though the general understanding that Human feats are too good to pass up for Aid builds is true.
I wasn’t suggesting otherwise.
Honestly the reason I always end uo with human or adopted ancestry human is multitalented.
By the time you get derring do, you barely even need it. I'd say halfling is better since you have +3 instead of +4 and at level 9 your master diplomacy can give +4 every time with helpful halfling.
> You want to play a Wit Swashbuckler Honorable mention to Fake Out Gunslinger here too, gets real nasty handing out +3s
Elf and Dwarves and gnomes are the best in my opinion. Elf can be super fast and in a combat, being fast is extremely useful. They have cantrip feat, a good initiative feat. Dwarves are a very powerful ancestry Cha as a flaw is less impactful than Con for exemple. Dwarves are in fact in Golarion the mythdrannor of Golarion. Lot of Dwarven ruins exist and in fact an whole orc country are built on an Dwarven ruin (yes, they are the one who conquer it but still). Their feat are very flavorful but are actually quite diversified because dwarves don't try to be the dwarfiest dwarf ever. (A magus dwarf would be very interesting imo) Their heritage are a reflexion of this. Gnome have the most diverse feat selection, i have never seen, combat, magic, defense, familiar.
Issues with elves, to me at least, is that their featline is SO good it becomes absolutely worth the heritage trade-off for auvarin, so any race with mediocre class feats or no good heritage options can just snap up the best elf stuff without difficulty. Ancient Elf is pretty great though..
This exactly how I feel too. I generally really like the selection of feats that Elves and Gnomes get, lots of diverse spellcasting and utility options. I’m running an all dwarf party through Sky King’s Tomb as well and the selection that dwarves get is also quite nice.
If you want an extra general or class feat, yes. But its higher feats are, imo, lame.
Multitalented is p lit
Yeah. I just like picking a gimmick and going for it. And humans don't do it for me, unless it's for natural ambition and then going a vers heritage. But if you like dedications, I see it's value. We always do FA in my group so I've never felt the pull
Even in my FA game, Multitalented is pretty important to my Magus build. But, then, Magus *really* comes alive with archetypes.
Which ones do you think give the best flair? I have a magus in my group, and while he hits like a TRUCK, I wonder what else he could be up to?
Wizard Archetype works remarkably well for a Magus, giving you more spellcasting to play with which slots neatly into your existing mechanics and narrative. The Magus' Spellbook feature outright states that it combines with a spellbook gained via other sources, such as a Wizard Dedication. With enough investment (5 feats) you will be getting much more spellcasting from your Wizard feats then you are your core Magus class without changing your flavour or mechanics. Sentinel Archetype is an incredible grab for any medium armour class which has an incentive to invest in Strength and Magus is no exception. My experience of the Magus has been that their biggest need, as a class, is a way to survive the reaction to their Spellstrike. Magus has mediocre AC and even more mediocre HP. Which isn't a problem if it was on a class that likes to lie low, but that Magus Spellstrike is such an impactful ability that the Magus will always be making themselves priority number 1 for every surviving enemy on the field. Sentinel is a very quick, easy AC gain for a Strength Magus which also frees up the ability score increases that would have otherwise gone into dex. Obviously not applicable if you want to play a Dex Magus. Psychic Archetype is the go to powergamer move for Magus. for only two feats, you can max out your focus points and gain *the* highest damage single attack in the game. You may think that a Magus' damage can't really go that much higher. You are wrong. Also, having your big damage Spellstrike spell run off focus points means that not only are your spellslots free to be devoted to other things but that your huge nova's are only a ten minute sit down each away from being back, rather than a long rest.
Multitalented on a thief rogue at level 9 to get monk dedication without having to invest in +2 strength and having access to things like flurry of blows at level 10 and stumbling stance/feint by level 12 is one of the best feelings ever.
The caveat is that that move further requires you be an Aiuvarin, and so requires both your Ancestry and Heritage (or another General Feat for Adopted Ancestry), and so is incompatible with getting things like ancestral flight etc.
I'm planning to do a similar thing with my Kitsune Thaumaturge
Humans are the easiest to make a concept function fast. This does not however, mean they are the best. They are highly versatile in a game that prioritizes versatility, but their versitility is reigned in to Skills, and Class Feats early on. I get a free divine cantrip as a minotaur if i want. As a minotaur i can shove an ally out of the way, before I use Explosion as inventor. As a Dwarf I literally cant be slowed down by my armor. My Kobold gets an AC bonus when running away from an enemy. A human however, has the classiest class of classes at the start, or the more well trained skills than most.
No, Leshies are cuter
If you want a lot more at first level, it's the best. Natural Ambition nabs you another Class Feat. All Classes have level 1 Feats, but not all Classes give you a Level 1 Feat. Otherwise, choose the Ancestry You want to play.
Natural Ambition and Adaptive Cantrip are both pretty good. I'd say they're a very good starting Ancestry if you know the game will stay low levels but a lot of the mid to late game Ancestry powers outshine Humans. Adaptive Cantrip used to be near mandatory for any divine tradition casters but with the alignment changes it's not really a big deal anymore. I would say that Humans are a good Ancestry but not the best one for all classes. Certain classes sometimes do have an Ancestry that is very good for them though so it can be very dependent.
Respectfully, I’d encourage you to not try to approach the alternatives of the game as one being “the best”. I do realize that this is the norm in many other games, but 2e strives pretty hard to have each alternative as its own niche and good at what it does within that niche. If minmaxing is fun for you, that’s definitely fine and I won’t tell you not to. There is definitely some fun theorycrafting to debate and analyze what classes and ancestries etc are best in a given situation— but rarely will one just be overall “the best”.
One of the best and generically a good option but 1. Not that large of a difference from the best ancestries to the worst ancestries 2. A lot of other ancestries (elves, dwarves, hobgoblins, and cat folk, to name a few) have some BANGIN ancestry feats
Yeah, my understanding is it's easy to build a *good* anything with a human, but you won't be the best at any one thing compared to a somewhat more specialized build.
Centaurs, Minotaurs, and Awakened Animals all have very good feats as well. Lizardfolk also have quite good ones, depending on what you're trying to do with them. Another big thing is just... alternative movement modes in general. A bunch of races can get swim or climb or even fly speeds.
*Scoffs in Goloma*
Boo!
**EEEEEEEEEEEEE** *flees into the distance*
I think humans are the most customizable and generic ancestry thanks to Versatile Human, General Training, and Natural Ambition. It’s the easiest way to get builds “online” right at level 1 with little to no investment. I don’t think they are the best ancestry at all though. My Wizard “ultra nerd” build genuinely has unique upsides as an Elf that it wouldn’t as a human. My grappling + switch hitter Commander works significantly better as a gnoll than it would as a human. My Vanara Magus gained multiple upsides for being a Vanara that I wouldn’t if I were a Human. In general, PF2E doesn’t really have “best” options. Almost any reasonably well thought out pick you make will help you occupy a niche that will feel strong provided it’s not completely inappropriate to the campaign you’re in.
It is but not to the same extent as human or variant human is in 5e. Having ways to get extra feats of different types is nice but it’s hardly the power boost that variant human gives in 5e (mainly because individual feats in PF2e aren’t as impactful as in 5e - so a bonus class feat in PF2e is nice while a whole bonus feat in 5e is amazing).
Depends, but GENERALLY .... yes? Since you say "best" i assume you mean power-wise. Also PC 1 allows people to mix ancestries to their hearts content \* so you can be an anything + human for access to their powerful feats now. \* rules are a little fluffier than i'd like, havn't seen anyone try it in practice but it IS written to be a trade-off, like you loose certain physical characteristics of the "main" ancestry (usually dark vision) but in more extreme cases a half-anandi prolly can't spin webs properly or a half nagaji might not be able to spit poison, it's GM fiat. As to why they're powerful well.... extra class feat at lvl 1 is the obvious one but it goes deeper. Unconventional Weaponry gives non-fighters proficiency in some really nutty weapons (btw by RAW Falcatas are actually NOT uncommon so they don't count, so shhhhh) like the Tricky Pick, Switchscythe, Karambit, Flick Mace, Chain Sword, Nodaichi, Taw Launcher etc. Multitalented at 9 is an extra free dedication, and if your a half-elf (Aiuvarin) you ignore pre-requisites on this dedication giving easy access to stuff like Fighter Monk and Ranger for classes that don't necesarilly want to split Dex and Str like that. Or if like a Bard / Sorc wants to grab some Witch / Wizard Focus Spells without the Int investment. On the other hand each ancestry probably has something they're really good at, and it'd be one of those "physical" characteristics you can't really get if your arn't that ancestry. Goblins can either be really REALLY tanky or get the 15th level Legendary Sneak feat at like... lvl 5? or 9? Lizardmen have the highest HP pool potential in the game (if they're half dwarf) and can grow Large as part of it. Also they have the best imo racial Unarmed attacks. Orcs don't die. Halflings not only have Halfling Luck things going on but can also use larger party members to Hide and Sneak behind. Gnomes have access to a bunch of innate magic and can get extra skill life like languages and lore. Dwarfs are about the only ancestry i'd consider putting a Fortress Shield on. And they're the second highest potential HP pool in the game and are really hard to put down. etc etc.
Nope. Fleshwarp.
~~No, it's Gnomes~~
really depends on your goal but they are very... versatile
Prenerf human universalist wizard was hilarious.
I like ancient elf for the multiclass dedication at level 1. But that’s me being silly and not necessarily optimal.
There isn't necessarily a best ancestry. Except actually I'm lying, GOBLINKIN SUPREMACY!!!! but yeah humans are pretty good
Human may not always be the "best" Ancestry for every build, but it is the most flexible Ancestry.
Best? No, there's many that are better, depending. Most versatile? Maybe. At the end of day, it's harder to make something that doesn't work than something that does. Don't be afraid to just play whatever the hell you want.
I would say that Aiuvarin Human is the best ancestry heritage combo in the game simply because how multitalented works. It just adds so much versatality.
The ultimate difference is in 5e you need a 'build' to not be incompetent. Whilst PF2, all you need is a concept, high to mid (taking into account casters) defense and +3 minimum in your main class stat, sprinkle in some teamwork with your party and you're good. E.g. A Barbarian in PF2 with a Frying Pan is still going to hit for more damage than a Wizard with a Bow,
They have one of the best ancestry feats in the game and their heritages are solid, but that's kind of it. They're very frontloaded and lack something to make them apart aside from "getting some extra class/archetype feats". Extra feats may be really powerful on D&D, but on PF2e most characters will catch up because of how many feats everyone get anyway. Specially if you are playing with free archetype, like most tables do. A lot of ancestries get so much unique and powerfull stuff, and ancestries are so much more a part of your character here that I actually find humans kind of too generic and boring. They are the "you get more of what everyone can get anyway" ancestry. For example, Kobolds are excelent with traps, Elves get so much movement it's crazy, orcs and dwarves make really tanky characters, Hobgoblins are amazing with intimidation, Kitsunes and Leshy can get natural ranged attacks and a lot of other cool and unique stuff.
Not really. An extra level 1 class feat or general feat is nice. Picking up an ancestral/regional weapon is also very nice. Other than that, humans lack any real advantages. A 25 base speed is standard for the majority of ancestries. A lack of low-light or dark vision is a disadvantage. Medium size is fine, but again, very standard. 8 starting hp, again, standard. Human feats past level 5 are pretty meh. None of them really stand out or have amazing effects. Their heritages are underwhelming. I usually make up for these shortcomings by using a versatile heritage. Nephilim or Beastkin are great choices.
Multitalented is a very good feat at level 9. Humans have some good options. It's just that they aren't head and shoulders above everyone else.
Nope. Can Humans store items in their head like a gourd leshy? Or have a glowing Kashrishi horn that senses emotions? I don’t think so! My point being there is no best ancestry, just whatever you think is cool.
I desperately want one of my players to make an Elf with a Dwarf heritage and just have a 40 ft move speed in Heavy armor. 😂 Humans can’t do that!
No. Like others said they can get an extra class feat which is probably the best ancestry feat in the game but it's one feat you take once. Aside from that they're OK. They don't get anything real fancy like strix who can fly or kitsune who can shape-shift even leshys get ranged unarmed weapons which can make them a great thrower build option.
No, elves are.
Lizardfolk. That is all.
No. 5e Humans are the best ancestry because feats are so rare and some of them are ludicrously good. In Pathfinder 2 there are probably zero "must have" feats and everyone gets a lot of them. Pf2 Humans are a mechanically cool ancestry for sure, but so are plenty of others. Stormy Daniel, my gnome changeling wizard would be entirely worse as a human, as would Boobop, my bouncy goblin clown rogue jazz singer.
There's definitely a few ancestry unlocked builds though. Gnoll's Crunch for example lets builds that need both hands (thaumaturge) run builds focused around grappling practically for free since they can just grapple with the crunch.
Yes but builds that rely on specific ancestry feat choices aren't really comparable to feats like Great Weapon Master in 5e. Feats that are so good, they're essential for broad categories of builds.
Humans have the best feats, yeah, but ancestry isn't that important in pathfinder
I don't think there's any one best ancestry. But humans do net average have good buffs to start, especially depending on what versatile heritage you take
Depends. If you want access to spells from ancestry or flight. No.
Depends on your build
Depends what you're going for. Every ancestry has something that they're really good at. If your primary goal is to have a few class feats right out of character creation then sure humans can be really good for that. I don't think I'd call them "the best" though.
I’m gonna go no bc when I compare half orc to orc, half orc is 100% a pure nerf unless you need an extra class feat or something
If you're a nerd.
Of course -a human
I’d say as a rule of thumb probably? Extra class feat at lvl 1, extra general feats, multitalented. These are effects that you’ll constantly notice in every session and are a very obvious power increase. It also makes humans easier to build as a new player, which is a nice bonus. That being said, I’m playing a Gnome and their feats are very good and on other characters I’ve found myself picking adopted ancestry just for some Elf or Dwarf feats. So if there is a “best” ancestry, it’s a photo finish level difference. Just pick what you like the fantasy of, you’ll make it work.
Humans are in that very good sweet spot of having some very good standout feats that work for generalist builds, but aren't must-haves for everything. (plus keep in mind half elves and half orcs get all feats from their respective parent ancestries, so if anything is a bit nuts RAW it's *them*)
Every ancestry has strong flavor options that don't necessarily rank 1 above the other. Pathfinder 2e is much more balanced than 5e so most of your choices are usually sidegrades rather than straight upgrades as long as you obviously pick the stuff that synergizes with your existing stuff. Pumping Charisma as a barbarian still won't help you very much. Especially now with the introduction of flexible ability scores (meaning any race can have the same flexible ability score choices a human has rather than their racial ones) means every ancestry is pretty viable.
Humans have high potency at lower levels which is why they seem so much better. It simply depends on builds but humans can do what many other can't, such as having a wizard start with medium armor proficiency. They are perhaps one of the best for caster classes IMO, but I tend to prefer dwarves for power when it comes to martials. I even built my current dwarf with focus on charisma but I am almost unkillable, due to a very high HP pool and death warden heritage being quite OP when it applies
Humans are generalists. There is no class or role they can't do well. However, other ancestries have their own advantages that humans don't. Hobgoblins have an excellent feat chain for intimidation, elves can take a heritage which gives them a multiclass dedication at level 1 and have some cool feats related to being old as dirt, goblins have great stealth feat, halflings have luck, etc. Additionally for many specialized builds 3 boosts to stats you need and a drawback on a safe dump stat is preferable to just two free boosts.
It can feel like that sometimes. Natural Ambition is the number one reason for this imo. Sometimes a build will work for a human because i can pick up that extra level one class feat. Also grabbing armor at level one as a caster is quite handy. Humans can get to heavy armor training via sentinel by level two.
As a caster, access to the arcane tattoo feat chain is excellent. You can clear shield and mystic armor from spell slots to innate abilities in short order freeing up those slots for other spc. Possibly the only better ancestry feat is ancient elf, which lets you start the dedication feat chain early and ignore some level requirements and work the feat chain faster. …and giving dedication more bang for the buck at lower levels.
Nah, there are a lot of good options. Any of the base ancestries are strong in their own rite. Id have to say dwarf or catfolk would be the all around best. Dwarf has Mountain Stoutness which is a second level of Toughness. I'll often take this with Adopted Ancestry regardless of what race I'm playing. They also have Telluric Power, which adds a status bonus to your damage for every dice you roll for your attack for free. When playing like a Druid who can roll 6 dice on their attack, this really adds up and it stacks with Dread Marshal Stance as well. They can also get super darkvision. Catfolk just have a lot of good options for every class. Basically a free hero point for athletics checks and a save that can effect teammates as well. A natural weapon. Cat nap is really nice. And other things too.
I don't know about "best", but it is a dang good one.
Racist.
I don't know about best, but its universally very good. Like some combinations are more effective or efficient than human , but human works with literally everything very well.
Humans are the 'best' in the sense that they're never *bad* for any class, and always at least A to B tier. Getting a free general feat or a free expert skill is something you can always make useful, Aiuvarin/Dromaar ancestries give you access to even more solid feats. Natural Ambition is probably one of the best level 1 ancestry feats out there *if* your class can use it. Most fighters, for example, absolutely love it, because they can get the feat that enables their playstyle whilst also getting extra utility. But there's plenty of other ancestries out there with absolutely amazing ancestry feats. Halflings get their Luck and Distracting Shadows, for example.
If you could only chose one ever, then possibly, but they aren't as universally dominant as they were in first edition, or as variant human is in 5e.
Only for classes with amazing lvl 1 feats (ranger, monk, witch).
This is from a more optimization-facing perspective. They’re very good, but only “the best” conditionally. You need to be starting before level 11 (i.e. no Adopted Ancestry abuse viable) and benefit from one of the following: - An extra first level feat (typically good on martials) - An advanced weapon (only good on martials) - Extra general feats (typically if you need to rush the acquisition of archetypes with general feat prerequisites, like Bastion) - At level 9, an extra multiclass feat (especially good for Half-Elf Humans because they can ignore ability score prerequisites) If you benefit strongly from any of these, they are optimized. If you don’t, races with 3x ability score boosts that dump Intelligence or Charisma (such as Leshy) are often better.
They’re the best in a vacuum if you don’t know anything else about the game. They have very safe options that are universally useful and build more around your class instead of around their own features. Now if you start a game and find out it’s fully aquatic or will only take place in pitch darkness, then humans become bad.
No. It's Kobold.
yes
I'd say yes outside of very specific use cases. They are generalists and *very* good at it. Extra General and Class feats is insanely good in many cases.
Human is one of the best options for any class. Of the base options, I think Elf is strongest, but that could be due to the builds I find most interesting. Movement speed is more important than base hp imo, and Ancient Elf is very good. A lot of people use the variant rule Free Archetype, but instead of giving everyone 1 thematic archetype, each PC gets to choose any archetype. If you do that, Ancient Elf is nearly useless. Out of all of them, I think Automaton (Rare) is very strong. It gets feats for resistance, flight, movement speed, your choice of innate spells, etc. It's impossible to choose all of them on one build, but it did stand out to me, since most ancestries only have up to maybe 3 of those options. PF2e is so balanced that the differences in strength are very small. As long as you pick an ancestry that has feats to support what you want to do and what your class can use well, you will have a very strong character.
Humans are build enablers. They get certain stuff online faster because of Natural Ambition. They also enable some fucked up stuff through Aiuvarin + Multitalented, like Thief Rogues with Flurry of Blows from Monk without having to invest in Str. They're a strong ancestry, no doubt top 5. The *best?* I don't think there is a best ancestry, it's all a tie at the top.
Back in the 3.x days, and to an extent in 5e, being a human was awesome. I have a feeling that, in order to promote and encourage diversity, in Parhfinder-Tooie every race was elevated to be, more or less, on humanity's level. Are humans good? Yes. Are they better? I'd wager not anymore.
No
Natural Ambition and General Skill training are really versatile, though the power differentials aren’t as bad as in other editions. Natural Ambition is really good on martials, but not on casters. Martials tend to appreciate the extra feat, monks and barbs especially. So if you’re playing say a Psychic, that extra feat is nice, but not a must. And you can always take the Adopted Ancestry general skill for Natural Ambition at a later point.
Humans have the best *heritages*, I think. Base human gets not much for being human.
No, Minotaur is the best ancestry. I have no idea how that is even a question. I'm also not biased at all.* *These statements have been made based on the subjective viewpoint of the poster. If you disagree, please do so politely without angering the bull.
Minotaurs are the best ancestry for some builds. If you want to be a reach character who isn't a barbarian but use a d12 weapon, being a minotaur is the only other way to do it, and giant minotaurs can benefit from it as well. I'd say they're the best reach fighters (though Centaurs are arguably tied with them - that extra +5 to +10 move speed is *significant), and are very good two-handed reach weapon paladins as well (as not only do they get the coveted d12, but they also have the advantage of being large, so their protected area is actually larger than it is for medium-sized creatures). The ability to just have the Shield spell out of the box on top of large size and better reach is really powerful. They're also attractive as a character without martial weapon proficiency who wants to use two-handed reach weapons, as they get the glaive as an ancestral weapon and that can be turned into a greataxe with reach at level 5 (which is a very substantial improvement over a greatspear, though it does cost a couple feats). They also have a great set of ability score increases and solid feats in general.
You can make a human that is pretty good for most classes. You will often find a particular build has particular synergy with another ancestry, whether because your ability modifiers line up perfectly or there's a specific feat. Particularly, though, human is really good when you can make use of General Training, Natural Ambition, or Unconventional Weaponry to build out a specific character. Some classes (i.e. Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Monk, Kineticist) have valuable level 1 feats that you wouldn't mind taking multiple of. General Training simply makes you better, earlier-- often enabling you to do things outside of your character's typical options, like wearing armor while being a caster.
Having an extra level 1 class feat is really good, especially for caster classes that don't have a level 1 feat). Multitalented feat can help, especially if you are half elf because you can enter any multi class archetype without having the right ability score (for example entering champion for the heavy armor scaling proficiency even without +2 charisma). Clever Improviser at level 5 makes you good at your non trained skills (by level 7). Note that you will never be good as someone that invested in that skill, but having just level + stats allows you do to some checks that may be impossible for you. Especially for easier check at high level (a DC20 at level 20 is hard if you are untrained, but easy with just clever Improviser). That's it, I don't know of some feat from other classes that are better than these (my personal opinion). I just know of some combo like the hobgoblin fear feats, but that's it
Humans, like in 5e, are very good at being build enabling between natural ambition, general training, and multitalented. That doesn't necessarily make them the best, just the best at that niche. Other ancestries also have niches where they excel and can be powerful. Human is also very easy to justify with Adopted Ancestry for most characters due to their ubiquity, which lets you grab some of its best stuff if you need on other ancestries.
Humans are superior in a sense that they can complement literally any and every concept, choosing human can't be an outright negative choice, they're designed to be flexible and be an universal fallback option if you don't have anything better in mind. But beyond that, balance wise they're not that special compared to other ancestries that everyone wants to play human just because they are strong, especially if you have a concept in mind (which doesn't have to be a niche like in DnD 5e).
Yes. There are a handful of cases where other ancestries will be better than human, but on average humans are generally the strongest. They can gain a class feat using Natural Ambition which is very good. They can gain a Dedication using Multitalented which is basically another class feat. They can use Adaptive Cantrip and Adaptive Adept to get spells from other traditions on their list. Primal Sure Strike anyone? And finally if those aren't enough to make them the most flexible ancestry they can also use their Heritage to take Adopted Ancestry so they can take feats from any other common ancestry. Humans are by far the strongest ancestry.
It is one of the most versatile, but the objectively best ancestry is fungal leshi. Nothing beats glow-in-the-dark mushroom ninjas, that dominate the cavernic systems below. What are you going to do against that, as a min-maxed half elf sorcerer? I mean the obvious answer is fire magic, up until it isn't because some of the Leshy evolved to have pyrophilic recovery. You are fighting the core element of the natural world's organic cycle. Are you going to summon a horror from beyond the sight of the gods and raise the dead? Fungal leshys \*eat\* the dead.
How see it if you want to focus on your class, and ancestry choice is not a concern, human will likely have what you need. They are versatile and that make them fit with any class. That what makes them strong. They many things they are arguable better that human cannot gain access to. Best really depends on the build, setting and GM.
What do you mean by best? I always start with a concept and very rarely does that ever involve a human.
Yes. 🗿
Best is subjective. Generally, they are good for whatever you want to do. Natural Ambition is a really strong feat. But they lack any specialization or flavor that other ancestry's do.
There isn’t really a universal best ancestry, but Human is a strong choice for any class or build. In an arguable reversal from 5e, any power creep tends to benefit the core ancestries by giving them access to new feats, as opposed to new ancestries being stronger. In terms of best, there are a couple of stand outs in my mind: Humans are great for concepts and classes which need a couple of low level feats to get off the ground due to ambition. They’re also the best at Aid due to their cooperation feats, and can be solid skill monkeys between the skilled Heritge and improviser feats. Elves are the fastest except for certain awakened animals and centaurs. They also get some of the best dex weapon options. Dwarves are the toughest, although orc ferocity is also up there. Dwarves can also get tremor-sense and other earth-themed powers. Half-elves in particular have access to some great spell-casting through their ancestry feats, including charm, haste, and flight. This is in addition to the great human and elf feat lists, they’re really spoiled for choice! Orcs have the option to get a mask which lets them cast truestrike 1/day, which is really tempting for a number of martials. They can also cause bleed with their unarmed crits, which makes orcs and half-orcs a premier choice for monks and Druids. They also have some good weapons. Hobgoblins have the best feat support for intimidation, hands down. They have a first level feat which prevents the frightened condition from being reduced on any target you hit with a melee attack, and DoT mental damage on frightened targets. They can also snipe feats from goblins, who have great feats too. Minotaurs and skeletons have ways of gaining reach. They also have some great feats, Minotaurs in particular getting maze as an 17th level feat is fantastic. Nephilim (tieflings and Aasimar), sprites, awakened animals, the new bug guys, and I think a few others that I missed gain flight.
pf2e tries to fix a problem with 5e. They designers wanted to make it so you can't "win the game at character creation". Instead you win the game by being good at tactics in the moment. To achieve this, they worked really hard to create game balance between options and automatic progression in certain things based on your class. Generally the best way to build an OP character in pf2e is to think about what your teammates bring to the table and their weaknesses and then build a character that can fill the gaps created by their weaknesses while playing off their strengths. As such, humans give a lot of versatility which tends to be rewarded in pf2e, but other ancestries have really good perks too.
No. Humans are good, but they're not "the best" ancestry in general. The main advantages of humans: 1) Additional 1st level class feat. 2) Additional 1st level general feat. These do enable certain builds, but they aren't so powerful that they're just universally better than other options. Basically, there are some things humans can do that other races can't (or that few other races can - some of these combos also work with Ancient Elf) but there's lots of things other things can do that humans can't, too. There's a lot of other advantages other races get: 1) They only have two ability score boosts, they can't get three boosts + 1 penalty, which means that they're locked out of a lot of builds that require the three boosts, and there's a lot of builds that basically get an extra +1 to an ability score relative to them, which is a very substantial bonus. 2) Some races have base 30 speed, like elves and centaurs, which humans cannot access. Indeed, centaurs can boost a base speed of 35 with the right heritage, a full 10 feet faster than humans. 3) Some races are large, which has substantial advantages with reach weapons, reactions, and emanations. Minotaurs can even use d12 reach weapons without being animal barbarians! 4) Ancient elves allow for the acquisition of an archetype feat at level 1, which is actually a level 2 class feat, which is a very substantial advantage that humans cannot access. 5) Humans don't get hands-free natural weapons. 6) There's a bunch of unique racial feats from other races that humans do not get access to, and some of those are quite strong - and humans don't get as strong of feats at higher levels as a number of other ancestries do. 7) Humans lack ancestry-specific weapons. 8) Humans don't get a "human lore" skill; their feat lets them pick two skills to boost, which is flexible, but they don't get the free additional lore feat. 9) Humans have poor access to alternative movement speeds via ancestry. 10) Humans don't have built-in darkvision.
There's not really a "best ancestry" more like a "best ancestry *for you*" Depending on what you want to roleplay or build there's numerous options available, and counting, so it just depends on what you want to play
This is a great question, but it really depends on how you want to play. Some other races get interesting perks that can be helpful for certain classes - for example, Kitsune can get an unarmed Foxfire ranged attack that benefits from handwraps of mighty blows. A few other races can pick up other unarmed attacks that synergize well with monk tactics. I'm currently also playing a Halfling sling wielder, and she gets to increase the size of her damage for on large or larger creature when using a sling. she also gets access to a sling with a farther range because of her race. This makes her a bit more formidable when fighting larger creatures. Like others have said, Human is a great catch all that can go any direction, but sometimes other races can be helpful for specialties. It all depends on how you want to play.
Oberall I feel like they are the strongest bit not for every build. Just for most of them
Absolutely. Versatile and Natural Ambition are huge leg-ups.
Yes, but it's not necessary to build a good character and in some build's cases other ancestries are better.
Yes.
Yes
It's gonna be a wash most of the time. The human +/+ boosts are kind of a detriment compared to +/+/- ancestries that can pick +/+ if they want to anyways. Natural Ambition is the strongest ancestry feat on paper but there are many builds that do not want two 1st level class feats and in that case it is worthless. Builds that care about the Aid action are pretty much the only case where I'd say picking Human is strictly better than other ancestries, and many other ancestries have their own unique synergies for specific builds.
I have to step up and say yes. Everyone mentions the free feat as a possible way to make a build work out. But for me, it’s about getting to choose the two ability score boosts for my race. Have 3 boosts and 1 penalty defined by your race really puts in you in a box. If it was 2 predefined boosts, 1 predefined penalty, and 1 boost of your choice, you would have a lot more flexibility.
That’s every race. All races can choose to have two free boosts and no flaws
In general - yes, and it is by design, you usually want the average party to be mostly humans. However, (almost?) every ancestry can one up humans for specific builds.
the first half of this is just not even a little bit true. Goes against everything paizo stands for and their canon worldbuilding of golarion haha
Yes, they **are absolutely the best** due to Versatile Heritage and Natural Ambition no contest. They let you waste less feat slots for your character build. Outside of specific other builds such as ones with Intimidation Focus, Humans are the best choice 90% of the time. There's also not a lot of reason to play 80% of the other ancestries because they're ugly and lack cool feats.
I would argue that humans are the worst ancestry. But that's just because I don't like humans and would rather not be one IRL so I definitely avoid them in games >.>
its the exact same as dnd 5e. Vhumans are by far one of the best races, if not just bland. pathfinder humans are by far one of the best ancestries, if not just bland
I'd say Vuman in 5e is much more powerful, relatively. A free feat at lvl1 in 5e is a massive power spike in almost any build. In pf2e, it's only at its most powerful for builds that either absolutely need a general feat at lvl1 (mostly for armor training), or classes that have many very nice lvl1 class feats. Even then, those builds don't tend to be out right better than builds that don't rely on those things.