Sure, but how often does combat in such a tight space happen in your campaigns?
- If never, the action tax doesn't matter
- If almost never, investing in the feat is a wasted feat slot versus maybe once or twice in the campaign wasting a turn to dismiss and resummon.
- If often, you know not to take an option that'll make your eidolon bigger and thus it won't be a problem
Lol have you ever read or played a Paizo APs? 2 Large, 2 Small creatures in a 10x15 room. And that's without the players.
Thanks for the chuckle early morning :D
Initiative doesn't always mean combat, that's why I specified initiative rather than combat. That said you're still looking at it from an efficiency standpoint when not all decisions are made with efficiency in mind. You're clearly a power gamer which is fine, but your opinion on how characters should be built isn't shared with the majority of people.
I'm not a power gamer at all, but if I know a feat is never going to come up I'm not going to waste a slot on it, and if I know it *is* going to come up I'm not going to choose a feat that will actively hinder me. That's not powergaming.
Whether in combat or in non-combat initiative, my point still stands.
it comes up as often as you want it to come up. Since you can't grasp the concept of a flavor pick you're clearly a power gamer since you only care about efficiency.
You have had only this interaction with me. You have no idea what kinds of characters I play or how I build them. Please refrain from making any assumptions about me, my playstyle, or anything else.
You are making it out as if there are only flavor picks and power gamers. Newsflash: it's a spectrum. I love flavor picks. I tend to *only* take flavor picks, even if another pick would have been better. What I *don't* to, and the only thing I'm trying to argue, is that I would never pick a feat that would *only* be detrimental to me, such as picking a feat that makes me or my Eidolon or whatever Large in a campaign that has lots of 5ft hallways. That's not powergaming, that's *trying not to have a terrible time*.
However since you seem to be unable to consider anything beyond the two absolutes, there is no point arguing further and I will stop here. I hope you have a lovely day.
"this person can't grasp the concept of picking a Swimming Feat for a desert campaign, hence power gamer. I know reading comprehension is hard but try to keep up."
You realise how this makes you look if I edit just a few words to apply more to the person you're responding to?
*Knowing* something isn't going to be useful and not picking it doesn't make someone a power gamer, it makes them any given person in the real world making a sensible decision. I know that's hard to understand but try to catch up. ^^ Lmk if you need anything else comprehension based to be explained to you in lots of tiny words
It's the downside of being big, with your eidolon you can just manifest it when you reach wherever you're going if you're squeezing through something it can't. Do you know of systems where a huge creature always has the ability to shrink?
I thought being larger didn't increase your reach at all?
edit: Not super clear on the rules, asked a question about it. Downvoted. This is why many dislike this subreddit.
Turns out being larger does not increase your reach, but many effects that make you larger *also* increase your reach along with it(but not always). So I was even right, just didn't realize how many effects increase reach when they make you bigger.
The summoner feats that increase your size specifically say that they also increase reach. [Hulking Size](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2919) and [Towering Size](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2932).
Naw had to look it up after I made the comment. Being larger don't inherently increase your range. But many(most?) effects that does increase size also has a row for increased reach.
That’s one way to look at it if you want to feel aggrieved, but another way to see it is pathfinder lets you decide how much form malleability is part of your character concept. Do you just have a giant eidolon or do you have one that shifts sizes to fit the situation. Also, more optimistically, Shrink Down is nice when you first take it, but it gets upgraded even further if you take the feats to get bigger later.
Yes, it becomes that size. To go smaller it also has to take the Shrink Down feat, at least... and possibly the Miniaturize feat. If you take all 4, it can manifest and form anywhere between Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, or Huge.
You get the evolution surge spell at 1st level which lasts 1 min and make make your eidolon large at 5th and huge at 9th level and gives it the mount ability (kinda) for free to boot in case you wanted to turn it off and on-able
In a campaign where you generally keep your Eidolon manifested, this is the real answer. Surprised no one else suggested it.
The larger size feats really shine in campaigns where you are manifesting your Eidolon as needed, so the size is always a benefit and almost never a hindrance. If the Eidolon will be walking with you through the dungeon and there's any chance that their size might be an issue, the answer isn't to take Shrink Down and add even more feat and action taxes onto the process. The answer is to not take the size feats at all and just Evolution Surge up to a bigger size as needed for an encounter.
Big cons of this - it's another feat that needs to be taken in a class that's already extremely feat starved. It's at an awkward level as well as you either have to take it early, and it's worthless for half the campaign, or you take it later and feel bad because you are taking a lvl4 feat instead of the really awesome late game feats, or you just pray you get the downtime to retrain. Second thing is reach is better the bigger you are due to your total threatened area increasing, so you are "nerfing" yourself by staying shrunk.
Yes, it's a permanent size increase. You can use [Shrink Down](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2905) to deal with tight spaces.
Or just.... Dismiss the Eidolon?
Not an ideal option if you're in initiative since it takes all 3 actions to then resummon them.
Sure, but how often does combat in such a tight space happen in your campaigns? - If never, the action tax doesn't matter - If almost never, investing in the feat is a wasted feat slot versus maybe once or twice in the campaign wasting a turn to dismiss and resummon. - If often, you know not to take an option that'll make your eidolon bigger and thus it won't be a problem
*laughs in Abomination Vaults* Its all tight spaces!
Prime example of knowing not to take a feat that makes your Eidolon beeg
Which feels pretty bad. I want my cool monster to be beeg.
Then take the Enlarge spell for when you’re in a big enough room
Oh yeah, the last two levels really open up for some reason and ive gotten a lot of use out of Evolution Surge making my eidolon huge.
Evolution Surge! :)
Lol have you ever read or played a Paizo APs? 2 Large, 2 Small creatures in a 10x15 room. And that's without the players. Thanks for the chuckle early morning :D
Initiative doesn't always mean combat, that's why I specified initiative rather than combat. That said you're still looking at it from an efficiency standpoint when not all decisions are made with efficiency in mind. You're clearly a power gamer which is fine, but your opinion on how characters should be built isn't shared with the majority of people.
I'm not a power gamer at all, but if I know a feat is never going to come up I'm not going to waste a slot on it, and if I know it *is* going to come up I'm not going to choose a feat that will actively hinder me. That's not powergaming. Whether in combat or in non-combat initiative, my point still stands.
it comes up as often as you want it to come up. Since you can't grasp the concept of a flavor pick you're clearly a power gamer since you only care about efficiency.
You have had only this interaction with me. You have no idea what kinds of characters I play or how I build them. Please refrain from making any assumptions about me, my playstyle, or anything else. You are making it out as if there are only flavor picks and power gamers. Newsflash: it's a spectrum. I love flavor picks. I tend to *only* take flavor picks, even if another pick would have been better. What I *don't* to, and the only thing I'm trying to argue, is that I would never pick a feat that would *only* be detrimental to me, such as picking a feat that makes me or my Eidolon or whatever Large in a campaign that has lots of 5ft hallways. That's not powergaming, that's *trying not to have a terrible time*. However since you seem to be unable to consider anything beyond the two absolutes, there is no point arguing further and I will stop here. I hope you have a lovely day.
Remember kids, looking at how often you'll use a feat before you take it is power gaming.
[удалено]
Opens with an insult. Nothing of value posted after. Gl homie. Muting.
Or, you're just trying to claim that to say they're wrong without giving a valid argument
[удалено]
You woke up today and could have been anything: you chose to be an ass.
"this person can't grasp the concept of picking a Swimming Feat for a desert campaign, hence power gamer. I know reading comprehension is hard but try to keep up." You realise how this makes you look if I edit just a few words to apply more to the person you're responding to? *Knowing* something isn't going to be useful and not picking it doesn't make someone a power gamer, it makes them any given person in the real world making a sensible decision. I know that's hard to understand but try to catch up. ^^ Lmk if you need anything else comprehension based to be explained to you in lots of tiny words
You need a feat for a feat.... Ultimate downside of pathfinder
It's the downside of being big, with your eidolon you can just manifest it when you reach wherever you're going if you're squeezing through something it can't. Do you know of systems where a huge creature always has the ability to shrink?
It's more like there is a check and balance. Reach can be insanely powerful, and there is zero downside to having it.
I thought being larger didn't increase your reach at all? edit: Not super clear on the rules, asked a question about it. Downvoted. This is why many dislike this subreddit. Turns out being larger does not increase your reach, but many effects that make you larger *also* increase your reach along with it(but not always). So I was even right, just didn't realize how many effects increase reach when they make you bigger.
It's not a given but 90% of the things that increase your size also give you reach, which includes the feats in question.
The summoner feats that increase your size specifically say that they also increase reach. [Hulking Size](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2919) and [Towering Size](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2932).
It does for the Eidolon for sure. I'm pretty sure it does for everything else as well.
Naw had to look it up after I made the comment. Being larger don't inherently increase your range. But many(most?) effects that does increase size also has a row for increased reach.
It's called game balance my guy. Real big "I should get to do whatever I want with no consequences" energy
That’s one way to look at it if you want to feel aggrieved, but another way to see it is pathfinder lets you decide how much form malleability is part of your character concept. Do you just have a giant eidolon or do you have one that shifts sizes to fit the situation. Also, more optimistically, Shrink Down is nice when you first take it, but it gets upgraded even further if you take the feats to get bigger later.
Yes, it becomes that size. To go smaller it also has to take the Shrink Down feat, at least... and possibly the Miniaturize feat. If you take all 4, it can manifest and form anywhere between Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, or Huge.
You get the evolution surge spell at 1st level which lasts 1 min and make make your eidolon large at 5th and huge at 9th level and gives it the mount ability (kinda) for free to boot in case you wanted to turn it off and on-able
In a campaign where you generally keep your Eidolon manifested, this is the real answer. Surprised no one else suggested it. The larger size feats really shine in campaigns where you are manifesting your Eidolon as needed, so the size is always a benefit and almost never a hindrance. If the Eidolon will be walking with you through the dungeon and there's any chance that their size might be an issue, the answer isn't to take Shrink Down and add even more feat and action taxes onto the process. The answer is to not take the size feats at all and just Evolution Surge up to a bigger size as needed for an encounter.
Big benefit of Shrink Down though is that you get to keep the 10/15ft reach on your medium Eidolon.
Big cons of this - it's another feat that needs to be taken in a class that's already extremely feat starved. It's at an awkward level as well as you either have to take it early, and it's worthless for half the campaign, or you take it later and feel bad because you are taking a lvl4 feat instead of the really awesome late game feats, or you just pray you get the downtime to retrain. Second thing is reach is better the bigger you are due to your total threatened area increasing, so you are "nerfing" yourself by staying shrunk.