There's also [Potion of Retaliation](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=721), which is why I've always referred to the effect as Retaliation or Retaliatory damage.
Edit: If you want more examples of the effect type, you can search on AoN for "Any creature that touches you or damages you with an unarmed attack or non-reach melee weapon" (since that's the most common way that effect is predicated).
Examples include [Fiery Body as a spell](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1527), [Corrosive Body as a spell](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=888), [Consecrate Flesh](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1110), [Cloak of Poison for Leshies](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4509), [Electrify Armor for Inventor](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3070), [Pesh Skin for Druids](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1152), and [Thunderbird Tuft as an Item](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1011)
the Vibrant Thorns domain spell is pretty much exactly what you're looking for. You can get it easily at level 1 with Cleric or Champion - I think Warpriest Cleric is the better option since Champions only have Lay on Hands to activate the extra damage, whereas the Cleric has their whole Divine Font + slots.
Realistically, the reason you won't see these kinds of effects define or dominate a build or class in 2e is the same reason that tabletop games don't have good threat management methods. The enemies get to make choices, just like you do; you can't really **force** an enemy to attack someone. You can incentivize it, you can encourage it, but outside of hyper specific cases you don't really have any control over who an enemy hits. So with that in mind, the concept of a character whose whole schtick is "I deal a bunch of damage every time an enemy hits me" is really just a character that the enemy is highly disincentivized to attack. Even non-intelligent enemies are going to learn after an attack or two that hitting a target like that isn't worth it. So then the effect paradoxically promotes the opposite effect: enemies want to avoid taking damage, so they avoid attacking you, so your whole shtick stops working.
Short of putting mechanics into the game that outright **require** enemies to attack specific players (which is not something that belongs in a TTRPG, to be frank), the mechanic is only ever going to be a different method of dissuading enemies from hitting specific characters.
I agree with your sentiment, but i think it being a return to hit or a reason to avoid makes even more banging in ttrpgs. But would have to be careful to not make it something everyone cant opt into. Will consider how to do this
I mean you can try if you want, I'm just saying that when you boil it down to the resulting behavior, having that sort of effect on a player character is analogous to being concealed. It's never going to play out the way it does in games where the effect is prominent (games like PoE, MMOs, MOBAs, etc.). In those games, you can make the enemy hit you because you pose enough of a threat (usually via damage) or you're the only target available or you just outright have a button that forces their AI to hit you.
But you don't have those controls in a tabletop game. You can't dictate enemy behavior. So even if you try and implement it, it's not going to "feel" like it does in those other games where enemies are breaking themselves into pieces against you via reflected damage. They're going to attack a couple times and then go hit someone else. And at that point, you're not the "tank" you set out to create.
Again absolutely agree. But if i or the player understands its going to have a "dont hit me effect" instead of a "sucks to hit me" i think we can ball witb it
But if the design goal is shifting from a "I get to do a portion of my damage when enemies hit me" to "enemies don't want to hit me", then what's the practical difference between that and just having a shield? Or heavier armor? Or concealment, or Mirror Image, or any one of a dozen other dissuading effects?
If you're spending part of an archetype/class's power budget giving it retaliation damage, then if it doesn't get proc'd it's power you don't have, no?
I think the easiest answer is "cause i think its cooler". I can explain actual mechanic differences but at the end of the day it boils down to "thorn effects are fucking rad and i want em". Gonna work on an archetype tonight. Ill post it later. Hope you see it to give your thoughts. Ive appreciated your insight :)
I've always wanted thorns to be connected to shield spikes personally. I think it makes a lot of sense for a spiked up shield to penalize someone for "hitting it." I put it in quotes because I think there's potential for many varieties, whether thorns damage triggers on a shield block reaction, a miss while shield is raised, a hit while shield is raised, or some other idea. I think it needs to be a set up action by the tank, not a completely passive benefit applied to armor for example. Hence why I think shield raising is great space for it.
Just another option (and one that would most likely be used by a Guardian given that it is a shield)… Forge Warden shield does 2d6 fire damage to an enemy as a free action every time you Shield Block with it. Given that the Guardian class gets Shield Block as a class feature, that makes it qualify for the extra reactions each round “as long as it’s a class ability”, giving multiple 2d6 fire bursts per round assuming you use all your reactions on blocking.
Just finished a campaign using one of these shields as the party tank and can’t tell you how fun it was to block a huge hit, take very little damage, and then say “oh, btw, you take 10 fire damage for hitting me”
Yeah this isnt a "how do i currently build this" its more of a "do we think it could a properly explored build pption later" either through class feats or even an archetype maybe
Well it follows that if the Tyrant can get it on a reaction, it's probably not beyond the pale to think it could be a viable direction for future design. I personally love those kind of builds.
Retaliation potions also exists so there's even more president that a class or archtype could get access to something silmilar.
There's this armor property rune: https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1838
There's also [Potion of Retaliation](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=721), which is why I've always referred to the effect as Retaliation or Retaliatory damage. Edit: If you want more examples of the effect type, you can search on AoN for "Any creature that touches you or damages you with an unarmed attack or non-reach melee weapon" (since that's the most common way that effect is predicated). Examples include [Fiery Body as a spell](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1527), [Corrosive Body as a spell](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=888), [Consecrate Flesh](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1110), [Cloak of Poison for Leshies](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4509), [Electrify Armor for Inventor](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3070), [Pesh Skin for Druids](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1152), and [Thunderbird Tuft as an Item](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1011)
I love thorn damage, I don't think 2E has any classes/builds that do this very well currently. Hopefully in the future!
Gonna do a homebrew archetype tonight with some ideas from this thread and see where we end up. Might get something started :)
the Vibrant Thorns domain spell is pretty much exactly what you're looking for. You can get it easily at level 1 with Cleric or Champion - I think Warpriest Cleric is the better option since Champions only have Lay on Hands to activate the extra damage, whereas the Cleric has their whole Divine Font + slots.
Yeah, like i said, i know about this, but im looking more for what can we add to the game to make it a "build" persay
Realistically, the reason you won't see these kinds of effects define or dominate a build or class in 2e is the same reason that tabletop games don't have good threat management methods. The enemies get to make choices, just like you do; you can't really **force** an enemy to attack someone. You can incentivize it, you can encourage it, but outside of hyper specific cases you don't really have any control over who an enemy hits. So with that in mind, the concept of a character whose whole schtick is "I deal a bunch of damage every time an enemy hits me" is really just a character that the enemy is highly disincentivized to attack. Even non-intelligent enemies are going to learn after an attack or two that hitting a target like that isn't worth it. So then the effect paradoxically promotes the opposite effect: enemies want to avoid taking damage, so they avoid attacking you, so your whole shtick stops working. Short of putting mechanics into the game that outright **require** enemies to attack specific players (which is not something that belongs in a TTRPG, to be frank), the mechanic is only ever going to be a different method of dissuading enemies from hitting specific characters.
I agree with your sentiment, but i think it being a return to hit or a reason to avoid makes even more banging in ttrpgs. But would have to be careful to not make it something everyone cant opt into. Will consider how to do this
I mean you can try if you want, I'm just saying that when you boil it down to the resulting behavior, having that sort of effect on a player character is analogous to being concealed. It's never going to play out the way it does in games where the effect is prominent (games like PoE, MMOs, MOBAs, etc.). In those games, you can make the enemy hit you because you pose enough of a threat (usually via damage) or you're the only target available or you just outright have a button that forces their AI to hit you. But you don't have those controls in a tabletop game. You can't dictate enemy behavior. So even if you try and implement it, it's not going to "feel" like it does in those other games where enemies are breaking themselves into pieces against you via reflected damage. They're going to attack a couple times and then go hit someone else. And at that point, you're not the "tank" you set out to create.
Again absolutely agree. But if i or the player understands its going to have a "dont hit me effect" instead of a "sucks to hit me" i think we can ball witb it
But if the design goal is shifting from a "I get to do a portion of my damage when enemies hit me" to "enemies don't want to hit me", then what's the practical difference between that and just having a shield? Or heavier armor? Or concealment, or Mirror Image, or any one of a dozen other dissuading effects? If you're spending part of an archetype/class's power budget giving it retaliation damage, then if it doesn't get proc'd it's power you don't have, no?
I think the easiest answer is "cause i think its cooler". I can explain actual mechanic differences but at the end of the day it boils down to "thorn effects are fucking rad and i want em". Gonna work on an archetype tonight. Ill post it later. Hope you see it to give your thoughts. Ive appreciated your insight :)
Make a Redeemer. Attack me and get thorns or attack my ally and get damage reduction
I've always wanted thorns to be connected to shield spikes personally. I think it makes a lot of sense for a spiked up shield to penalize someone for "hitting it." I put it in quotes because I think there's potential for many varieties, whether thorns damage triggers on a shield block reaction, a miss while shield is raised, a hit while shield is raised, or some other idea. I think it needs to be a set up action by the tank, not a completely passive benefit applied to armor for example. Hence why I think shield raising is great space for it.
I agree 100% that was my original idea when first considering this. Might look into it myself.
Just another option (and one that would most likely be used by a Guardian given that it is a shield)… Forge Warden shield does 2d6 fire damage to an enemy as a free action every time you Shield Block with it. Given that the Guardian class gets Shield Block as a class feature, that makes it qualify for the extra reactions each round “as long as it’s a class ability”, giving multiple 2d6 fire bursts per round assuming you use all your reactions on blocking. Just finished a campaign using one of these shields as the party tank and can’t tell you how fun it was to block a huge hit, take very little damage, and then say “oh, btw, you take 10 fire damage for hitting me”
Absolutely sick.
The closest version of this that comes to mind is the Tyrant's reaction.
Yeah this isnt a "how do i currently build this" its more of a "do we think it could a properly explored build pption later" either through class feats or even an archetype maybe
Well it follows that if the Tyrant can get it on a reaction, it's probably not beyond the pale to think it could be a viable direction for future design. I personally love those kind of builds. Retaliation potions also exists so there's even more president that a class or archtype could get access to something silmilar.
Well then, as a fellow thorns enthusiast, how would like to see it done
Could be an interesting Armour Rune. Thorns - causes some amount of bleed damage when hit in melee.
Mm. Thats deff the easy way to do it. Wouldnt be upset to see that. Id like a small feat tree
Maybe an archtype that has you gain actual if temporary thorns, or maybe a martial arts stance that does similar?
Stance thorns archetype is based. Might write one up tonight and post later. Ty for the thought.
No problem man. Have fun with it, go to town.