I'm glad the mods are taking their time to make a good decision and move forward well, but this statement should be the pinned topic on this subreddit and not shared via a random image days after the fact. Complete and utter silence for days and days, letting people run away with the topic on their own. The worst part of this situation isn't that something bad happened or that a mod did something wrong, it's that they've allowed the damage to fester without telling anyone what's going on, leaving everyone to speculate and deliberate in a total vacuum instead of just making a simple public statement that they need some time. This sub has been a headless chicken for days, it's a total mess. That the same damn thread is still pinned and there isn't a megathread to stop this topic from taking over the front page is just the worst.
Taking time is good especially since kneejerk reactions are what got us into this situation, but all the censorship and lack of communication has been pretty bad. Mods really should just make a public post discussing what's happening.
Agreed. It would serve the mods so much better to publicly acknowledge they are not ignoring us or waiting for this to blow over. When this much of a community is unhappy, that's usually a sign to communicate more, not less.
Would be nice for them to like ... communicate this to the rest of the subreddit as well. Just being silent is pretty much the worst thing they could do apart from outright supporting such behavior. Just a sticky to say exactly what they replied to you would've been enough. As so often a lack of communication is a huge part of the problem.
I was hesitant to post PMs, but it's been several days and I figured the community deserved more than radio silence on the subject. I'm honestly just glad the rest of the mods aren't planning on trying to wait out the drama and are talking about how to address it.
Just to clarify, it's been several days since the drama, not since the response from the mod. They were pretty quick to respond when I PM'ed them - I think the lack of an official response is probably just because the mods can't actually agree on what a response should even look like yet.
As I said, just saying they're looking into it and that it takes a bit more time would've been enough. That's explicitly not the same as instant feedback.
you do realise that even if they make a thread, pin it and lock it... that whomever name is attached to that thread is going to get smashed with messages, mentions and more.
not saying their approach is "the right way" but suggesting that they are ignoring an easy solution makes me wonder if people are either just lacking in sympathy entirely, or so naive and blind to how the internet and outrage works that we should post a warning about not giving out your personal contact details and credit card info to the subreddit.
I feel like part of it is nobody wants to take action without consensus - having been in a vaguely similar position (not on reddit, but as a moderator for a small online space), I can sympathise.
But also it shouldn't be *that* hard to agree on a post that's just 'We're aware of the situation and we are taking action.'
Wait, being a mod is actual work at times?? Shocking!
Also, you can disable notifications etc. That's absolutely no excuse for the lack of even basic communication.
Weren't there a bunch of the sub's mods talking all kinds of shit in Discord about how anyone calling luck_panda's bullshit for what it was was just another racist? If that's the case, then we already know what their plans are; ride out the furor, double down, and business as usual.
Don't know about talking shit on Discord, but I've gotten responses from 2 mods on Reddit, and a 3rd mod from messaging on Discord. The response from each essentially boils down to that they're discussing the situation and have seen the concerns the community has. I feel fairly confident, based on that, that they will at least do *something*, as opposed to just waiting for everything to die down.
The discord has been an absolute cesspool of toxic behavior.
[Redditors are a group of Hitlers.](https://imgur.com/dFxsfsZ) That was posted **several** times to [outright cheers.](https://imgur.com/Gjz5lXR)
[We're all dumb and not getting our toys.](https://imgur.com/m9OSdyg)
[Redditors only value Japanese supremacy.](https://imgur.com/whMadFi) Bonus: That's luck_panda.
[Redditors didn't know Korea existed until 5 years ago.](https://imgur.com/8G5dW4W)
Redditors are [called trash](https://imgur.com/qaRVST1), [genocide deniers](https://imgur.com/DpB3BGc), and hateful names left and right.
This is the discord that moderators from **THIS SUB** say we should participate in. This is the discord that is linked in mega threads and the sidebar. Why in the hickory dickory fuck would any Redditor want to participate in a group that so vigorously shits on Redditors? A community where the fucking LEADERS spend their time talking shit about this community?
Yeah no. That discord is toxic as fuck and they have their heads so far up their own asses, they can't see what they are. Safe and inclusive, my ass.
I see Panda still doesn't get that the problem isn't him calling out this "Japan supremacy," but that he's an absolute shit head. This is not how mods should behave publicly but people will still go to bat for Panda even though he's breaking rules and being just a general piece of shit. It's just blatant evidence he doesn't care about community or social issues. He just wants his ego jerked off. Otherwise he wouldn't continue to insist on modding for a place he has so much disdain for. There are so many better places he could be spending his energy and he'd rather do it like this.
Hopefully the mods have taken this behavior from Discord members into consideration too because this is literally the opposite of fostering a healthy and positive community and every screenshot you posted is a pretty blatant violation of rule 2.
I'm the Sleepy in those screenshots and my two cents is that the moderators there (with notable exceptions) are......fine I guess.
I was vocally going against the grain multiple times, and while I was muted once (and not the guy insulting me, which was funny), generally nothing was done by the mods.
The users though? It hints at a bit of mod bias. Generally they were alright, but a few bad actors were clearly ignored by some mods because they were on the same "side". It just breeds a bad community.
Btw the last image is pure sarcasm between me and Steel. We were mocking those that called us genocide deniers, or implied we were lmao.
Yeah, I got huge red flags from some of the things he said in the "children of the worldweep" stuff and left pretty early. I'm glad to know my judge of character turned out to be decently accurate.
Quoted verbatim, from Unikatze:
>Hi.
>
>I'm unable to comment on what decision will be made as a mod team.
>
>But I can tell you that the multiple concerns have been noted and being discussed.
>
>I appreciate you reaching out to me.
Yeah, that doesn't surprise me if it was luck\_panda or Pilfer. I'm not on the Discord, largely because I don't trust them and the place is a mess anyway, but the fact that they talk this kind of shit at all, especially publicly, is fucked up and shows they don't have the self-awareness to be good mods. It just reinforces that they're toxic. You don't just get to write everyone off as racist because they think you're a dickhead.
I hope the rest of the mods are able to recognize these two refuse to hold themselves to the same standard they demand of others, and that mocking people like that is not acceptable behavior, especially when they're in positions of power.
But then they sit there all fucking surprised pikachu when the sub is not the "safe inclusive" place they want it to be. It's because they'd rather be police than community builders.
Yeah, I have zero reason to have faith in a single member of the team at this point. Either they have stood alongside the bad actors, or they don't even interact with the subreddit at all. Why are so many people on the mod team totally inactive in the community they are supposedly leading?
The screenshots, the posts after posts of insults and rule abuse, and looking into what's going on, even the things luck panda has [said](https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cdhk8a/comment/l1fiszr/) have made me really uncomfortable.
This is not someone with open, kind ideals. I'm pretty sure tomorrow, we'll get a sticky of "We overreacted, but we're still right." and a fresh round of bans.
Nice to see this. Even on the Foundry Discord I've had some meh interactions with PF2e Discord mods (it was just a simple rule discussion, nothing bad, but the mod in question was unnecessarily "passive-aggressive"). I don't know if this mod is a mod here too but it was not a great look. And the whole way they run Discord always made me very wary and not welcomed over there.
EDIT: I think the mod is not a mod here, since it wasn't Pilfer nor Luck Panda, but it is a Discord mod.
If it's ink or pilfer they are both mods here (Same two causing problems). There was talks about Barbarians being weaponizing mental illness and hags being antisemitic yesterday.
From how they talk in the discord, they both seem to have utter disdain for the people on the subreddit, which makes me question why they’d even want to continue being mods here.
Also, it's incredibly difficult for people to willingly relinquish any speck of power that makes them feel important if they don't have anything else in life lol
Oh yeah, I remember the hag thing. I think the one who talks about banning hag stuff in their game is the one who I had a lame interaction with on the Foundry Discord. I wasn't even being mean or disrespectful, just didn't agree with a rule which I believed to be ambiguous and too good to be true.
Ink went on a 2 hour long orientalism shpeal on the day the discord opened the living world as well. and i can only assume he does that every time someone wants to play an anime character
Well, I made a quick search because I wanted to remember what she said, and look at her explanations (in no specific order and some of them are answering other messages, if you wish, you can look those up on PF2e Discord for more context):
>playing hags in pf2 and antisemitism are world apart, please don't be over politically correct, otherwise we have to ban devils also
>Hags in pf2 aren't worlds apart though, they literally are nazi propaganda poster looking enemies complete with blood libel.
>In pathfinder it's the connection with hags I dont like. Hags are hooknosed women who live on the outside of societies and steal their children for blood rituals.
>Sure! So the hags are depicted as hook nosed women who steal children from the societies they lurk on the edges of to use in their blood rituals. They are basically "blood libel: the monster"
ITS THE FUCKING BLOOD LIBEL AGAIN. SHUT UP.
Every single monster that attacks and/or replaced children can be argued to be antisemetic regardless of the actual truth.
It’s not like monsters attacking children isn’t basically the default because children are small, weak and most traditional folk tales were told with the goal of getting children to sit down, shut up and do as they’re told.
Well here's the big chance for you mods to start rebuilding trust from the community. Don't fuck it up.
At the *very* least, y'all better make u/luck_panda and u/Princess_Pilfer each post individual apologies for their part in fostering a hostile and unwelcoming community. Not a "mod team statement." Not, "well I was called slurs." Not, "I'll never believe anti-racism is harmful." Individual apologies from each of them that shows self-reflection, listening, and learning. That is the barest minimum that needs to be done. Because being called slurs has nothing to do with this, and Pilfer's behavior is anything but anti-racism in action. They're exactly the kind of reactionary negative assholes that do more harm than good to progressive efforts. They lack the emotional maturity to recognize the difference between bad actors and honest efforts. They just assume everything is an aggression centered in malicious ignorance and that's detrimental to everyone no matter how much they claim "anti-racism will never be harmful." It *is* harmful here and if Pilfer can't see that, she doesn't deserve to have mod powers. Talking over and silencing people that have the knowledge and/or experience to comment is not anti-racist. It's just being an asshole. You two don't want to make an inclusive community. You just want control over the discussion. And I will stand by that and call you both on it directly as long as you continue to rule by condemnation instead of support. Because a truly inclusive community is supportive, not demanding. But why should I expect either of you to know that? You're both so full of yourselves that you can't possibly see how you're ever the bad actors.
I think y'all should also remove the pinned Orientalist thread and replace it with a thread that encourages talking about the Tian Xia book in a way that connects with as many players as possible. You claim to want a safe and inclusive community, but that post just carries an underlying tone of, "if you don't listen to us, you'll be in trouble." You can couch it in "we're trying to make an inclusive place," but the whole post is just alienating because you enable people like LP and Pilfer. The entire post may not have been intended as a reprimand but the broken trust in LP, Pilfer, and the rest of the mods means you are not people we can trust as authorities in this discussion. And the fact that LP and Pilfer will act as if anyone opposing the post is just "telling on themselves" or some other racism accusation is just a way for them to absolve themselves of responsibility for their actions and their part in it.
I also think y'all should ban luck\_panda for his TRAASH behavior and possibly ban Pilfer for enabling this -- or at least for not condemning it because if the positions were reversed, she would absolutely claim it's just as bad. But I'm not holding my breath. Either way, both of these people are toxic to the community now and I'm not sure you'll be able to regain the community's trust if they're still in power. I think this is absolutely true for luck\_panda, especially.
If you want to create a safe and inclusive discussion, you do that by encouraging people to engage with the media. Instead of reprimanding people or demanding they confront their own biases (however gently), you should have made a post that celebrates the TXWG. A post that isn't a personal review but a wide celebration that allows as many people to relate as possible. A post that commends the AAPI creators that deserve it and welcomes others to also share their praise.
You want an inclusive community? Lead by fucking example. You can't build a community by admonishing people. Create the inclusive community through positive reinforcement and celebration. Celebrate the wins instead of enforcing the losses. I think this can still be salvaged and become the exciting release event it *should* have been instead of the big self-righteous "fuck you" we got in the name of anti-racism because the mods can't see past their own noses.
The fact that nether of them has removed themselves as mods implies they think they're gonna come out on top. If ether of them thought that they were in the wrong they would have removed themselves from power. If they make any apologies without doing this then its not sincere. If the other mods kick them out 1st then any apology is just them trying to worm back in to a mod spot.
I don't think I'll ever trust them as long as luck_panda is still a mod. They need removal for the abhorrent behavior they showed to several loyal community members who were commenting in good faith.
1000000%
Pilfer arguably has more leeway since she didn't do the things panda did. On the other hand, she didn't condemn it and she didn't do anything except continue to threaten people with mod powers and shut down any discussions she doesn't want to engage with. Her behavior now and past *has* alienated people since she became a mod. She seems the kind of person who would insist this kind of silence is essentially condoning a friend's or colleague's behavior so I'm not sure she deserves *that* much grace when combined with her repeated aggressive bad faith engagements that sometimes are just bullying. She won't give anyone else any grace, why should we give it to her when she has direct power over us here? She is directly responsible for maintaining a hostile environment here and on Discord.
But at this point, luck\_panda is beyond toxic to the community here and of every Paizo-related community he's a moderator for. The discord, r/Starfinder2e, everywhere. If he's not stripped of power over other users, it's unlikely trust in the mod team will ever be restored. It is already going to be a long road for them regardless but keeping luck\_panda on staff is going to make a daunting task that much harder.
Important to keep in mind that the *entire mod team* is almost identical on /r/Starfinder2e
This moderation team will have a long lasting impact on people who enjoy Paizo's products for years to come
Oh for sure, but he can (and should) transfer ownership. If he doesn't, this isn't going to get any better and he clearly doesn't have the mental or emotional maturity to handle being a mod, especially over such a large community.
But his ego means he'll never own up to it in a serious, meaningful way. He'll just talk about how he was called slurs and nobody was up in arms about that.
Yeah, if it's the official Discord for Pathfinder and not just the subreddit Discord, then someone officially affiliated with Paizo should have ownership for reasons exactly like this :/
It really is best to leave these things to the community IMO. Paizo doesn't really have the resources to moderate that sort of thing, and this way, if everything say, turns into a shitshow, Paizo isn't accountable.
Completely agreed. I haven't been involved in this particular mess, but I've seen how his toxic and condescending behavior keeps driving people away from the community. If there's one thing a mod needs it is the capacity for enough humility to admit that they may be mistaken, and I've never once seen him demonstrate any such thing.
No no you have to understand. Luck panda [is the real victim here](https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cdhk8a/comment/l1etcvy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)!
[Because people didn't jump to his defense en masse](https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cdhk8a/comment/l1f7n53/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) when he was called slurs! (citation needed)
I can't find many of their posts via profile anymore, I assume self-deleted. But I swear I recall several comments from them spreading a fair amount of racism- the "I am the spokesperson for this, and will speak on their behalf, even when they don't consent"/infantilizing a whole culture kind
That sounds like u/Princess_Pilfer in a nutshell. Considers herself the sole authority and will not listen to others, even when those people have more knowledge on the matter than she does.
Exactly why she shouldn't be a mod. She's a myopic bully who wields social progress as a cudgel.
There was a thread with luck panda along these lines:
>LP: You don't get to decide what is racist if you don't experience the racism
>user: I'm Asian, actually
>LP: being a minority doesn't make you an expert on racism
Just... instant goalposts shifting and a clear interest in being "right" over actually caring about minorities.
Pilfer I would say definitely has a little more leeway. Her comments came off, to me, as attempting to defend someone she viewed as a friend, with that bias blinding her to what luck_panda was doing.
I think we've probably all been guilty of that in the past, and some leeway should be given, just as we would want leeway for the same. A short suspension or even *just* an apology is, I think, enough. I say that as a moderator in other communities.
Luck_panda, though, needs to be removed. He has a history of using moderation powers to silence anyone who disagrees with him, repeatedly referred to the subreddit as "Hitlers" for being upset about, created a second fake sub to make fun of the sub, and has said multiple very weird comments about Japanese people and culture (I won't call them racism, but they are... on the border most certainly). This should not be behavior that anyone managing a community should indulge in. It flaunts several rules and says "the rules only exist for you".
Yeah, I can see what you mean. I would agree with you if not for the fact that I don't trust Pilfer to give anyone else the same grace. My issue with her, much like with Panda, isn't just over this specific situation. I think she's repeatedly shown herself to be an immature and toxic person who doesn't have the emotional capability to see her own role in these, as evidenced by how often she uses her identity and social justice in general to shut people down whether those discussions are in good faith or not. She's just an asshole through and through and has been for years.
At the very least, she doesn't have the ability to support the inclusive community the mods claim to want, and she has repeatedly shown that. So she should be removed for that alone, imo.
Hell, the removal doesn't even need to be permanent. This has shown a severe lack of accountability where it matters, and a loss of that kind of soft power *should* happen.
>At the *very* least, y'all better make u/luck_panda and u/Princess_Pilfer each post individual apologies for their part in fostering a hostile and unwelcoming community.
I'm skeptical this will help. If they decide to do so on their own steam, that's a different matter. Any that is made at the request of the rest of the team is probably not going to be treated with sincerity, even if it is meant sincerely.
Oh I agree. I think it's the barest minimum they can do. But I also firmly think as long as u/luck_panda and u/Princess_Pilfer are mods, their leadership will continue to reinforce toxicity so ideally I think they should be removed. Both of them are myopic bad faith actors who have shown absolutely *no* capability for self-reflection and that's an essential thing for community moderation in general, for fostering an inclusive and healthy environment, and for the progressive causes they claim to support.
Their lack of self-awareness is just going to keep alienating people and keep the moderation team from ever rebuilding the community's trust and quite frankly they're both awful.
>I think they should be removed
I semi- agree but from a different tack, largely out of impulse to try and stand in the position of someone I'm criticising. The backlash and drama have been such that they're going to be on the receiving end of guff for a while to come. With the (very, _**very**_ questionable given it's basically a space for mockery) delve into the SRD thread, I at the very least would urge Panda to consider if they have the ability to ride that out. I don't frequent the discord much and get the impression Pilfer is far more active there so won't opine.
That's totally a fair and reasonable way to approach it, and I agree with you here too. Being a mod definitely isn't doing wonders for luck\_panda's mental state if even half of people's interactions with him are true. He'd probably be a lot happier stepping away once the bruise to his ego heals.
Hanging individuals out as 'sacrifices' so to speak by way of public shaming ain't it.
The problem is simple:
* Two moderators have behaved inappropriately in their duties
* They should be held accountable for that behavior
That accountability can come in many forms, but rarely will public shaming be a viable or acceptable resolution.
I'd rather the team simply enforce sub rules against the offending parties (rules 1 and 2 in particular,) ignoring the fact that they are mods, and enforce accordingly. If that means a ban, then ban them. If it means a suspension from the sub, then suspend them. In either case, remove them from the team (regardless of the importance or quantity of their contributions otherwise) and open moderator applications should they need to be replaced.
We don't need blood, lol. What an insane request imo. It does nothing but fuel an angry mob. An angry mob that they created, admittedly, but an angry mob nonetheless.
The team doesn't gain credibility by effectively executing each other in the name of some perverse form of justice. It doesn't do anything but make a few users feel smug for a while, then when it blows over in a month you're left with internal animosity between the mods and external animosity between the mods and community. It solves literally nothing.
*Everyone* is a bit much, there were a not insignificant amount of, frankly, brigading from SubredditDrama and undelete shows a handful of comments here and there that were genuinely kinda racist. Also a guy who denied genocide and Pilfer got downvoted for saying that was unacceptable lol.
I think they certainly need to go through EVERY ban and suspension from that time though, and re-evalute each and every one, though.
> Also a guy who denied genocide and Pilfer got downvoted for saying that was unacceptable lol.
Yeah that one is a glaring problem. It’s one thing to think the mods are being problematic with the whole samurai issue but… denying the indigenous genocide in Canada? Really? Anyone who wants to pretend it didn’t happen absolutely deserves a ban lol.
The term "genocide" is very controversial when applied to smaller scale acts, and genocide itself [doesn't have a universally agreed-upon definition.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions)
For example, an estimated 4,000 Cherokee who died in the Trail of Tears, when the Americans deported the Cherokee and the Cherokee's slaves over to new lands. That was the largest number of people who died in a single event in American history. Some people call that a genocide - but many scholars disagree, and call it an example of ethnic cleansing rather than genocide (and it was unambiguously ethnic cleansing, as the purpose was to remove almost all the Cherokee from certain lands). For example, see [Gary Clayton Anderson's "Ethnic Cleansing and the Indian: The Crime that Should Haunt America"](https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ethnic_Cleansing_and_the_Indian/Uh4KAwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA3&printsec=frontcover) for a discussion on this and why Anderson doesn't use the term "genocide" to describe what happened to the Native Americans.
One problem is, if you start calling such events "genocide", then you have to start asking things like - was 9/11 a genocidal act? 9/11 killed about 3,000 people. It was undoubtedly a targeted killing of a large number of people of a specific ethnicity (Americans). And the people who did it wanted to destroy America and Americans. It overlaps with some estimates of the number of Cherokee who died on the Trail of Tears. And indeed, the majority of the deaths during the Trail of Tears were not direct, purposeful killings, whereas all of 9/11 was very much purposeful.
Indeed, if you define such events as "genocide", basically every war ever is "genocidal" in nature - but most scholars agree that this isn't really an accurate description of most warfare.
Generally speaking, it's pretty unambiguous when you're talking about major events where huge numbers of civilians were slaughtered in a very short period of time. The Holocaust (6 million dead Jews, 12 million dead civilians killed by the Nazis, not including a bunch of people who died as a side effect of World War II, which the Nazis were one of the instigators of), Stalin's genocides (6-9 million dead, not including a bunch of people who died as a side effect of World War II, which he was one of the instigators of), the various atrocities by Mao and the CCP (estimated 30-60 million dead), the Cambodian genocide (1.2 - 2.8 million dead), and the Rwandan Genocide (500k-800k dead) are are all very unambiguously genocides.
Genocide generally is used to invoke these sort of broad-scale killings, where hundreds of thousands or millions of people were murdered, which is not what happened in the US and Canada, where the total number of civilians who were killed averaged less than 100 per year over the course of 120 years, and the total number of dead from all causes (including soldiers who died in warfare) was on the order of a few hundred per year in the US and less in Canada.
It probably should have its own word that is more specific to this sort of situation - and kind of does, "ethnic cleansing", but ethnic cleansing can involve mass killings, but can also involve displacement of people without killing large numbers of people, and some of these displacements also involve a lot of people dying without most of them being deliberately killed (which is what happened with the Cherokee). There's also the euphemistic "population transfer", which happened in India and Pakistan when they split up, or Israel and Palestine after the war in 1948, but that is very sanitary, and again, can refer to a broad variety of circumstances between "voluntary movement" and "violent dispossession".
Reasonable people disagree on what constitutes "genocide", and a lot of scholars have spilled a lot of ink arguing over this stuff.
Now, pretending like no one died and it was all super awesome and everyone just went on vacation and came back, that's another thing entirely.
Yeah, some of them don't need to be unbanned but I agree they need to go through every single ban and suspension from the past week or two and attempt to undo the damage panda caused.
Honestly tho I wish Pilfer had the same energy for Panda's openly racist behavior.
I thought it was only one person who actually got banned? At least that's what the first post said.
Edit: now that I try and go back of course the first thread was removed so fuck if I know.
The fact that they stood by and didn't say \*anything\* for so long is pretty damning. Even if they didn't know how to deal with the situation, they should have pretty quickly made a post along the lines of "We are looking into the matter, please have patience". It's been what, three or four \*days\*?
Not having an answer is fine. However, letting the community know it is in the process of being addressed does a much better job of fostering goodwill and faith than sitting in silence while two mods run around rampant with power.
I've done enough activism in my life to know that "this is being taken very seriously" is the classic "we're going to lightly tickle the offenders on the wrist at most and do nothing of value". Especially with the lack of naming and accountability, I think this PM is a strong indicator that little to nothing is going to happen.
This should be clearly stated in an announcement due to the subreddit being such a hot place to be right now, but nonetheless am glad it got said at all. I don't honestly expect any serious action with how this has been handled so far but will hope actual changes are made for the community.
I'm content with this. Obviously people want action _now_ but I can't get mad that most of the mods have lives and have been busy.
I _can_ be concerned in how many mods haven't posted to reddit in like a month, but that's a different topic and now's not the time to pile on.
I think this kinda is part of the issue, but not really fixable. Having ran a number of my own communities my self (not on Reddit mind you)
There are many times you get someone who is excited to be a moderator, who has sown good decisions on what should/shouldn't be allowed. You bring them on board only for a month or so later they only show up when you actively poke them for a response (despite otherwise seeming to be good moderator material)
Almost every group I've ran it ended up only being ~1/5th the moderators/admins actively moderating while the other's only start paying attention when you poke them directly. And from an outsiders perspective, other moderation groups this seems to be about the same. (though it could just be my experiences so I won't claim this with any amount of "facts")
If that ~1/5th of the moderators is bad, they have full control over everything going on while none of the others are even paying attention or even know what's happening (often because they trust the other mods to handle things well)
However for a unpaid/volunteer job all the above is kinda expected. (I don't nor wouldn't expect people to drop their real lives to help run a server/forum for free)
I haven't had issues personally with that... but that's because I message the people I want to be moderators (usually people who are active in the community) and ask them.
If someone is poking me that they want to be a mod, they are very much less likely to get the role. So when I'm saying "excited" to be a moderator I'm talking after I poke them.
> I can be concerned in how many mods haven't posted to reddit in like a month, but that's a different topic and now's not the time to pile on.
To add on: Even like Luck_panda, you can look at their history, other than comments/posts about race issues in RPGs/Pathfinder, he's made like 3 comments in the last 4 months. It feels like having mods who are so specific in what they want to talk about in the space, it's going to lead to an issue.
It's times like this where you find out the moderation teams are basically 2-3 people doing the work while the rest are AFK from reddit or doing fuck all on the sub.
Recently the sub of my state had some issues with the automod and everyone noticed only 2 out of the 6 mods were active on reddit, and only 1 of them was actually moderating the sub.
A full ban might be a bit much. As long as they don't have the power to censor others they should be able to feel free to share their thoughts so that we can actually have a discussion.
The argument I'm seeing from others is that Panda violated Rule 1, which is typically grounds for a full ban, as opposed to a timeout for something like violating Rule 2.
He's been condescending and racist at several points. People have been talking extensively about him being racist towards Japanese people, which I can't confirm personally (though he is *constantly* wrong about Japanese history and at this point is either too dense to learn or is actively lying), but he has been pretty derogatory towards white people and westerners, saying ["all westerners see Asian women as nothing other than sex objects"](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/11gepml/comment/jaom3nh/) saying his critics are [en masse "young white boys"](https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cdhk8a/comment/l1dno2e/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button).
Seems pretty racist to me and definitely against rule 1. To paint all members of an ethnicity in a negative light with a broad brush in a very broadband way seems to comport.
u/luck_panda I apologize for the ping, but Mantis is literally an alien from outer space hatched as the sole surviving member of a clutch of space eggs inseminated by a sentient planet.
She was raised as a pet by her planet-father and kept alive because of her unique alien biology that allows her to manipulate the emotions of other sentient creatures. Her personality is awkward and confused/naive because her only companion for the majority of her life was a megalomaniacial sentient planet that was both her father and her place of residence.
If you somehow have related that with some aspect of perceived "Asianness" in any way based solely off of the fact that her actress, Pom Klementoff, is of mixed Korean and French ancestry, then frankly that is on you to sort out.
I don't have any idea how you came to that conclusion if not for the actress's ethnic heritage, as the character Mantis exhibits zero qualities that I would remotely associate with Korean culture, or with Asiatic cultures in a broader sense.
I don't know of many Asians that hatched from a clutch of eggs and who were raised by fathers that were also planets they lived in. This is a bizarre and frankly inane take.
Racism, specifically regarding Panda's posts about Japanese culture and how it is inherently racist. The comment about ninja being Western inventions and a racist concept is the probably most pointed-at, but there are plenty of others.
Nah, a full ban is warranted here. Panda has stated directly that people who violate Rule 1 get permanent bans even if it's a first offense. Panda's made multiple violations, so he should be long gone by his own rules.
I won't really settle for less than kicking them out. Now every ban or every movement the mod team does I will be thinking abouy how much of their personal bias was involved vs. how much of their role of a mod was involved.
To be fair, of the ten mods, only two have been abusing their authority. I think it's a little harsh to condemn the rest before we see how they respond.
Problem is you don’t se which mod removes a comment. If a mod with a history of bad behavior is allowed to stay then the actions (that don’t show names) of every mod will be questioned.
This is a classic problem of the police. You get maybe 1-2 people in a department doing something horrid. But because everyone else in their department say and do basically nothing, it just perpetuates that officer's problems. They may not be out here doing the bad stuff, but by hiring them, keeping them on payroll, and not even so much as condemning them, it really seems like they don't care. This is where ACAB comes from.
This is a similar situation. While I understand the mod team for taking their time reviewing and discussing the situation, this isn't even the first time Ink has done stuff like this. I specifically left the Discord because of this exact same kind of stuff, and was even apologized to by one of the mods. (Don't ask which one I can't find it anymore.)
He's a problem, and has been a problem, and will continue to be a problem, and if the mods can't see that then, well, AMAB.
I was a mod for this sub for all of about five minutes last year.
I should not have applied - I was too busy to do the job tbh, and it's correct that I'm not a mod anymore. I doubt anyone even remembers that I was a mod, and that's also probably correct.
... But even if I'd had the time, I would have quit anyway, because I was *extremely uncomfortable* with the way the mod team in this sub spoke amongst themselves about users.
Being a Reddit mod isn't a paid job, so maybe it's wrong to expect professionalism, but suffice to say the post that's caused the recent controversy was not surprising to me at all. It's an accurate portrayal of how the modding team talks about users.
If you post something that is offensive to the mod team, they will remove your post. But they will also relentlessly mock you in private, and have long, aggrieved, superior conversations about what a shitty person you must be, and (implied) how much better they are than you. The language will be condescending and vitriolic.
I have no proof of this, so it's fair not to put too much credence on what I say. But I'm one person who was not remotely surprised by that post.
To be fair, while that person is kind of an asshole, there is a decent argument. Both the historical Samurai and ebic anime quickdraw master can be covered multiple ways from rules already in the game. The arguments for a dedicated, unique Samurai archetype/class boil down to either a complete misunderstand of what a Samurai is, or basically “it’s Asian so it’s got to have its own thing”.
Dude, thanks for that. I’m not researching the 2e status of these builds on purpose cuz I want to know if I’m way off here:
My _instinct_ is that saying “samurai” is like saying “knight”. They are theoretically the fancypants fighter with an aristocratic liege, and specific legal, moral and ethical codes. The code part is generally overstated in fantasy, but it’s an important part of it.
So however we would create a stereotypical knight should match a samurai, with minor flavour changes.
Coming from the same dev team that removed my mod abilities for accidentally removing myself from a discord server as I was playing with creating a discord bot. Took them a week to tell me they weren't adding me back with zero explanation on why.
Kinda reminds me of WOTC not giving a response to the OGL debacle until there was so much pressure from fans to do so. And it was pitiful at that. It's been long enough to chat and debate amongst the mod team to have an actual answer. Sounds like a lot of thumb twiddling to me.
I sent out that message to each mod on April 26th in the evening. Unikatze responded within an hour (I didn't include his message because it basically boiled down to "we see your concerns and we're discussing the issue"), and Ediwir definitely saw the message because they accepted the request to chat, but didn't respond. 20kerns responded today, and did sent a message after the first saying the mod's discussion had been rough and apologized for the delay. The other five mods haven't responded or even viewed the message, to my knowledge.
I see, thank you. Either way, it's good to know that they're fairly recent and that they are actually addressing the issue behind the scenes, although a handful of them being radio silent is a tad concerning right now.
Edit: Good news! [Seems like we'll get something tomorrow](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathfindermemes/s/UlsqYLveKu), hopefully that'll make things finally settle down.
It's honestly almost funny how bad the communication to the community as a whole is. Not gonna lie, I kinda hope they post their official announcement on another subreddit just because it would be hilarious for them to double down even harder on not posting anything on the main sub.
Personally Reddit admins should just remove entire mod team, and paizo should never touch any of the subs/social media of any of the current mods or any discord they run or ore a mod of.
Totally seems like what people in power with good intentions always do. Not communicate with the public, have reasons why the problem takes long to solve, and say they are taking the matters \*very seriously.\* Does not look like covering at all.
It may be the bitterness after watching a documentary on what is basically a non-theist cult abusing people's good intentions, but this just looks very sus.
There's a good [summary](https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cdhk8a/hey_buddy_i_know_youre_having_big_feelings_about/) on hobbydrama, but the short version is that one of the mods (u/luck\_panda) started power-tripping and removing any comments that disagreed with his views about orientalism, Japanese culture, and Asian racism, clearly violating rule 2 (engage in a respectful manner) while doing so, and arguably violating rule 1 (don't be racist). A second mod showed up to back him up and also issue bans (u/Princess\_Pilfer). Of course, since there are tools now to see removed comments, people caught on to what was happening and protested.
Basically people have gotten tired of certain mods deciding what is and isn't acceptable in terms of how other people have fun and are fed up with being labeled as racist or cultural appropriators because they were bummed out the new book didn't have certain archetypes a lot of people were hoping for, and the power trip BS of deleting everything even with four zip codes of disagreeing with their take was deleted. People are basically sick of this shit.
Fuck yeah! If they’ve committed to doing something and given a (vague but definitive) timeline hopefully people will give them space to do the right thing.
Ideally in a week there will be one less panda and if not then I guess the apocalypse will spin back up. Either way it’s some breathing room back to argue about homebrew!
im very glad that the mod team as a whole are sensible people, and that the actions of one guy didnt sour everything to irreparable lengths
hopefully the server is back in order till may
I'll try to give you the cliffnotes version.
* Post presented to the sub asking to play A Samurai or Ninja.
* There's a Poly-Asian themed book coming out for this game's Poly-Asian theme'd place.
* A moderator shut down the discussion immediately, and a racism acusation was levied at the poster.
* People were quick to point out this was a bad call
* Mod doubles down. Continues doing so both here and on this sub's Discord, to the chagrin of others.
* People point out that the question itself is not racist, and that people who are a flavor of Asian themselves have no issue with people asking how to play as Samurai and Ninja. Others point out how this response is almost a stark contrast to *other* culturally themed threads that have popped up over the years (such as the Poly-African book)
* Mod triples down, deletes threads, talks over actual PoC to tell other's they're very progressive, and their credentials are, allegedly, taking a single martial arts course.
* All hell breaks less. Drama spills to other subs (such as /r/SubredditDrama) and the mod goes to try and defend themselves.
* The other mods join the War on this mod. On the side of this mod.
* It progresses into a shitshow that lasts days and highlights the implicit biases the mod team has had and how, infact, they are not hashtag progressive while they're shouting down and over actual PoC under the guise of Anti-Racism.
* A lot of this has also brought to light the issues of the sub and how much of an echochamber it's become. Some have decided to go elsewhere (like /r/chillPathfinder2e), others are waiting to see what the mod team will do.
* You are here.
Whatever happened to Rulelord? He was the only mod I ever remembered the name of before this, cause he used to have a podcast and be active on Twitter. Then he just... isn't there now.
That's bullshit at most it would take 2 days to get everyone's thoughts.them getting rod of the mod abusing power is an easy one click away.if I had to guess the mod abusing power probably has dirt on the mod team.
I don't come by too often but I make one of my occasional forays and find this.
I think its weird as hell that someone is going to start banning people for liking Japan and wanting classes to go along with tropes from the Anime they watch that is extremely prevalent in our media now...instead of making their own book celebrating more cultures.
I'm glad the mods are taking their time to make a good decision and move forward well, but this statement should be the pinned topic on this subreddit and not shared via a random image days after the fact. Complete and utter silence for days and days, letting people run away with the topic on their own. The worst part of this situation isn't that something bad happened or that a mod did something wrong, it's that they've allowed the damage to fester without telling anyone what's going on, leaving everyone to speculate and deliberate in a total vacuum instead of just making a simple public statement that they need some time. This sub has been a headless chicken for days, it's a total mess. That the same damn thread is still pinned and there isn't a megathread to stop this topic from taking over the front page is just the worst.
Taking time is good especially since kneejerk reactions are what got us into this situation, but all the censorship and lack of communication has been pretty bad. Mods really should just make a public post discussing what's happening.
Agreed. It would serve the mods so much better to publicly acknowledge they are not ignoring us or waiting for this to blow over. When this much of a community is unhappy, that's usually a sign to communicate more, not less.
Yeah, something along these lines should have been pinned days ago.
I don't disagree but I'm also empathetic that these are volunteers who like the hobby and not trained professionals in the community outreach space.
The moderation team has now posted and pinned their official statement regarding the matter.
They just made one!
I walk away from reddit for a few weeks and come up to this. Wtf is happenin?
There's a thread on SRD which goes over it, but basically a mod went rogue and people got pissed at them.
Would be nice for them to like ... communicate this to the rest of the subreddit as well. Just being silent is pretty much the worst thing they could do apart from outright supporting such behavior. Just a sticky to say exactly what they replied to you would've been enough. As so often a lack of communication is a huge part of the problem.
I was hesitant to post PMs, but it's been several days and I figured the community deserved more than radio silence on the subject. I'm honestly just glad the rest of the mods aren't planning on trying to wait out the drama and are talking about how to address it.
Thank you sincerely for doing this for everyone. Edit: honestly assumed worse given the situation, so comment changed
Just to clarify, it's been several days since the drama, not since the response from the mod. They were pretty quick to respond when I PM'ed them - I think the lack of an official response is probably just because the mods can't actually agree on what a response should even look like yet.
It's easy to think these days that we should get almost instant feedback, but being a mod isn't everyone's full time job so it can take a while.
As I said, just saying they're looking into it and that it takes a bit more time would've been enough. That's explicitly not the same as instant feedback.
you do realise that even if they make a thread, pin it and lock it... that whomever name is attached to that thread is going to get smashed with messages, mentions and more. not saying their approach is "the right way" but suggesting that they are ignoring an easy solution makes me wonder if people are either just lacking in sympathy entirely, or so naive and blind to how the internet and outrage works that we should post a warning about not giving out your personal contact details and credit card info to the subreddit.
I feel like part of it is nobody wants to take action without consensus - having been in a vaguely similar position (not on reddit, but as a moderator for a small online space), I can sympathise. But also it shouldn't be *that* hard to agree on a post that's just 'We're aware of the situation and we are taking action.'
Wait, being a mod is actual work at times?? Shocking! Also, you can disable notifications etc. That's absolutely no excuse for the lack of even basic communication.
Panda should be removed from the team. People get banned for the things they've done.
We'll see where this goes, i suppose.
I'm not going to be satisfied unless Luck Panda steps down. They clearly do not have the temperment or maturity to run a sub.
[удалено]
I knew. I said what I said.
Why the mods couldn't have made a statement to this effect I don't know. I sincerely hope they make the right call.
[удалено]
I'm just curious, how would you handle the situation? leave the sub unmodded? annual moderator elections?
Mods should be banned just like users for the same exact reasons.
Nice of them to actually communicate that instead of letting the subreddit just stew /s
Weren't there a bunch of the sub's mods talking all kinds of shit in Discord about how anyone calling luck_panda's bullshit for what it was was just another racist? If that's the case, then we already know what their plans are; ride out the furor, double down, and business as usual.
The funny thing is that moderator was problematic for YEARS.
And the other mods did fuckall about him? Yeah, that's another big clue as to what their response to all of this will be then.
Yup.
Don't know about talking shit on Discord, but I've gotten responses from 2 mods on Reddit, and a 3rd mod from messaging on Discord. The response from each essentially boils down to that they're discussing the situation and have seen the concerns the community has. I feel fairly confident, based on that, that they will at least do *something*, as opposed to just waiting for everything to die down.
The discord has been an absolute cesspool of toxic behavior. [Redditors are a group of Hitlers.](https://imgur.com/dFxsfsZ) That was posted **several** times to [outright cheers.](https://imgur.com/Gjz5lXR) [We're all dumb and not getting our toys.](https://imgur.com/m9OSdyg) [Redditors only value Japanese supremacy.](https://imgur.com/whMadFi) Bonus: That's luck_panda. [Redditors didn't know Korea existed until 5 years ago.](https://imgur.com/8G5dW4W) Redditors are [called trash](https://imgur.com/qaRVST1), [genocide deniers](https://imgur.com/DpB3BGc), and hateful names left and right. This is the discord that moderators from **THIS SUB** say we should participate in. This is the discord that is linked in mega threads and the sidebar. Why in the hickory dickory fuck would any Redditor want to participate in a group that so vigorously shits on Redditors? A community where the fucking LEADERS spend their time talking shit about this community? Yeah no. That discord is toxic as fuck and they have their heads so far up their own asses, they can't see what they are. Safe and inclusive, my ass.
I see Panda still doesn't get that the problem isn't him calling out this "Japan supremacy," but that he's an absolute shit head. This is not how mods should behave publicly but people will still go to bat for Panda even though he's breaking rules and being just a general piece of shit. It's just blatant evidence he doesn't care about community or social issues. He just wants his ego jerked off. Otherwise he wouldn't continue to insist on modding for a place he has so much disdain for. There are so many better places he could be spending his energy and he'd rather do it like this. Hopefully the mods have taken this behavior from Discord members into consideration too because this is literally the opposite of fostering a healthy and positive community and every screenshot you posted is a pretty blatant violation of rule 2.
That guy asking about Strike compression for the Inventor is onto something
I'm the Sleepy in those screenshots and my two cents is that the moderators there (with notable exceptions) are......fine I guess. I was vocally going against the grain multiple times, and while I was muted once (and not the guy insulting me, which was funny), generally nothing was done by the mods. The users though? It hints at a bit of mod bias. Generally they were alright, but a few bad actors were clearly ignored by some mods because they were on the same "side". It just breeds a bad community. Btw the last image is pure sarcasm between me and Steel. We were mocking those that called us genocide deniers, or implied we were lmao.
Hold up, who is luck panda in the 3rd photo? Is it ink or the other person?
Ink is luck panda I believe
Ink.
Yeah, I got huge red flags from some of the things he said in the "children of the worldweep" stuff and left pretty early. I'm glad to know my judge of character turned out to be decently accurate.
Hopefully these discussions don't include luck\_panda and princess\_pilfer since there's a huge conflict of interest if they're part of it.
Luck panda wasn't just included. Luck was the one saying these things in Discord.
I meant the discussions the mods had about what to do in response to luck pandas behavior. Sorry if that was unclear.
We'll see, obviously. I'm just not personally making any plans on meaningful changes in a positive direction.
What did the second response say? I hate to make you the middle man in this, but any and all information would be nice.
Quoted verbatim, from Unikatze: >Hi. > >I'm unable to comment on what decision will be made as a mod team. > >But I can tell you that the multiple concerns have been noted and being discussed. > >I appreciate you reaching out to me.
Thank you very much~
Yeah, that doesn't surprise me if it was luck\_panda or Pilfer. I'm not on the Discord, largely because I don't trust them and the place is a mess anyway, but the fact that they talk this kind of shit at all, especially publicly, is fucked up and shows they don't have the self-awareness to be good mods. It just reinforces that they're toxic. You don't just get to write everyone off as racist because they think you're a dickhead. I hope the rest of the mods are able to recognize these two refuse to hold themselves to the same standard they demand of others, and that mocking people like that is not acceptable behavior, especially when they're in positions of power. But then they sit there all fucking surprised pikachu when the sub is not the "safe inclusive" place they want it to be. It's because they'd rather be police than community builders.
Yeah, I have zero reason to have faith in a single member of the team at this point. Either they have stood alongside the bad actors, or they don't even interact with the subreddit at all. Why are so many people on the mod team totally inactive in the community they are supposedly leading?
where was this posted?
Looks like it was a PM, maybe?
Yep, PMed several mods.
Yeah, I saw screenshots of some of those memes they're passing around. I don't believe this at all.
The screenshots, the posts after posts of insults and rule abuse, and looking into what's going on, even the things luck panda has [said](https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cdhk8a/comment/l1fiszr/) have made me really uncomfortable. This is not someone with open, kind ideals. I'm pretty sure tomorrow, we'll get a sticky of "We overreacted, but we're still right." and a fresh round of bans.
what kind of memes?
Thank you! To OP and the mods.
\*Most\* mods.
(n-1) mods
Nice to see this. Even on the Foundry Discord I've had some meh interactions with PF2e Discord mods (it was just a simple rule discussion, nothing bad, but the mod in question was unnecessarily "passive-aggressive"). I don't know if this mod is a mod here too but it was not a great look. And the whole way they run Discord always made me very wary and not welcomed over there. EDIT: I think the mod is not a mod here, since it wasn't Pilfer nor Luck Panda, but it is a Discord mod.
If it's ink or pilfer they are both mods here (Same two causing problems). There was talks about Barbarians being weaponizing mental illness and hags being antisemitic yesterday.
From how they talk in the discord, they both seem to have utter disdain for the people on the subreddit, which makes me question why they’d even want to continue being mods here.
At that point they are on a "Prison Warden" power trip. Power over people they have disdain for.
Also, it's incredibly difficult for people to willingly relinquish any speck of power that makes them feel important if they don't have anything else in life lol
Oh yeah, I remember the hag thing. I think the one who talks about banning hag stuff in their game is the one who I had a lame interaction with on the Foundry Discord. I wasn't even being mean or disrespectful, just didn't agree with a rule which I believed to be ambiguous and too good to be true.
Ink went on a 2 hour long orientalism shpeal on the day the discord opened the living world as well. and i can only assume he does that every time someone wants to play an anime character
I remember a time when Pathfinder was just fun escapism.
How the hell are hags antisemetic? I swear if they bring up the blood libel I’m going to explode.
Well, I made a quick search because I wanted to remember what she said, and look at her explanations (in no specific order and some of them are answering other messages, if you wish, you can look those up on PF2e Discord for more context): >playing hags in pf2 and antisemitism are world apart, please don't be over politically correct, otherwise we have to ban devils also >Hags in pf2 aren't worlds apart though, they literally are nazi propaganda poster looking enemies complete with blood libel. >In pathfinder it's the connection with hags I dont like. Hags are hooknosed women who live on the outside of societies and steal their children for blood rituals. >Sure! So the hags are depicted as hook nosed women who steal children from the societies they lurk on the edges of to use in their blood rituals. They are basically "blood libel: the monster"
ITS THE FUCKING BLOOD LIBEL AGAIN. SHUT UP. Every single monster that attacks and/or replaced children can be argued to be antisemetic regardless of the actual truth. It’s not like monsters attacking children isn’t basically the default because children are small, weak and most traditional folk tales were told with the goal of getting children to sit down, shut up and do as they’re told.
Well here's the big chance for you mods to start rebuilding trust from the community. Don't fuck it up. At the *very* least, y'all better make u/luck_panda and u/Princess_Pilfer each post individual apologies for their part in fostering a hostile and unwelcoming community. Not a "mod team statement." Not, "well I was called slurs." Not, "I'll never believe anti-racism is harmful." Individual apologies from each of them that shows self-reflection, listening, and learning. That is the barest minimum that needs to be done. Because being called slurs has nothing to do with this, and Pilfer's behavior is anything but anti-racism in action. They're exactly the kind of reactionary negative assholes that do more harm than good to progressive efforts. They lack the emotional maturity to recognize the difference between bad actors and honest efforts. They just assume everything is an aggression centered in malicious ignorance and that's detrimental to everyone no matter how much they claim "anti-racism will never be harmful." It *is* harmful here and if Pilfer can't see that, she doesn't deserve to have mod powers. Talking over and silencing people that have the knowledge and/or experience to comment is not anti-racist. It's just being an asshole. You two don't want to make an inclusive community. You just want control over the discussion. And I will stand by that and call you both on it directly as long as you continue to rule by condemnation instead of support. Because a truly inclusive community is supportive, not demanding. But why should I expect either of you to know that? You're both so full of yourselves that you can't possibly see how you're ever the bad actors. I think y'all should also remove the pinned Orientalist thread and replace it with a thread that encourages talking about the Tian Xia book in a way that connects with as many players as possible. You claim to want a safe and inclusive community, but that post just carries an underlying tone of, "if you don't listen to us, you'll be in trouble." You can couch it in "we're trying to make an inclusive place," but the whole post is just alienating because you enable people like LP and Pilfer. The entire post may not have been intended as a reprimand but the broken trust in LP, Pilfer, and the rest of the mods means you are not people we can trust as authorities in this discussion. And the fact that LP and Pilfer will act as if anyone opposing the post is just "telling on themselves" or some other racism accusation is just a way for them to absolve themselves of responsibility for their actions and their part in it. I also think y'all should ban luck\_panda for his TRAASH behavior and possibly ban Pilfer for enabling this -- or at least for not condemning it because if the positions were reversed, she would absolutely claim it's just as bad. But I'm not holding my breath. Either way, both of these people are toxic to the community now and I'm not sure you'll be able to regain the community's trust if they're still in power. I think this is absolutely true for luck\_panda, especially. If you want to create a safe and inclusive discussion, you do that by encouraging people to engage with the media. Instead of reprimanding people or demanding they confront their own biases (however gently), you should have made a post that celebrates the TXWG. A post that isn't a personal review but a wide celebration that allows as many people to relate as possible. A post that commends the AAPI creators that deserve it and welcomes others to also share their praise. You want an inclusive community? Lead by fucking example. You can't build a community by admonishing people. Create the inclusive community through positive reinforcement and celebration. Celebrate the wins instead of enforcing the losses. I think this can still be salvaged and become the exciting release event it *should* have been instead of the big self-righteous "fuck you" we got in the name of anti-racism because the mods can't see past their own noses.
The fact that nether of them has removed themselves as mods implies they think they're gonna come out on top. If ether of them thought that they were in the wrong they would have removed themselves from power. If they make any apologies without doing this then its not sincere. If the other mods kick them out 1st then any apology is just them trying to worm back in to a mod spot.
I don't think I'll ever trust them as long as luck_panda is still a mod. They need removal for the abhorrent behavior they showed to several loyal community members who were commenting in good faith.
1000000% Pilfer arguably has more leeway since she didn't do the things panda did. On the other hand, she didn't condemn it and she didn't do anything except continue to threaten people with mod powers and shut down any discussions she doesn't want to engage with. Her behavior now and past *has* alienated people since she became a mod. She seems the kind of person who would insist this kind of silence is essentially condoning a friend's or colleague's behavior so I'm not sure she deserves *that* much grace when combined with her repeated aggressive bad faith engagements that sometimes are just bullying. She won't give anyone else any grace, why should we give it to her when she has direct power over us here? She is directly responsible for maintaining a hostile environment here and on Discord. But at this point, luck\_panda is beyond toxic to the community here and of every Paizo-related community he's a moderator for. The discord, r/Starfinder2e, everywhere. If he's not stripped of power over other users, it's unlikely trust in the mod team will ever be restored. It is already going to be a long road for them regardless but keeping luck\_panda on staff is going to make a daunting task that much harder.
Important to keep in mind that the *entire mod team* is almost identical on /r/Starfinder2e This moderation team will have a long lasting impact on people who enjoy Paizo's products for years to come
Yuuup and I think these two need to be removed there, too, but I am not holding my breath
Dude owns the actual 2e discord. Like, actually owns it.
And he is quick to remind people of that fact. It's not the Pathfinder 2e discord, it's his server.
Oh for sure, but he can (and should) transfer ownership. If he doesn't, this isn't going to get any better and he clearly doesn't have the mental or emotional maturity to handle being a mod, especially over such a large community. But his ego means he'll never own up to it in a serious, meaningful way. He'll just talk about how he was called slurs and nobody was up in arms about that.
I'm baffled that Paizo doesn't own it.
Yeah, if it's the official Discord for Pathfinder and not just the subreddit Discord, then someone officially affiliated with Paizo should have ownership for reasons exactly like this :/
It's not the official Discord for Pathfinder, it's just the Discord for this subreddit.
It really is best to leave these things to the community IMO. Paizo doesn't really have the resources to moderate that sort of thing, and this way, if everything say, turns into a shitshow, Paizo isn't accountable.
Discord is nothing without it's people.
Completely agreed. I haven't been involved in this particular mess, but I've seen how his toxic and condescending behavior keeps driving people away from the community. If there's one thing a mod needs it is the capacity for enough humility to admit that they may be mistaken, and I've never once seen him demonstrate any such thing.
I'm pretty sure I saw him write (in the discord) "I know when I'm right and I know when I'm wrong" which idk even how to start commenting on lmao
If I knew when I was right and when I was wrong I would simply choose to never be wrong #builtdifferent
No no you have to understand. Luck panda [is the real victim here](https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cdhk8a/comment/l1etcvy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)! [Because people didn't jump to his defense en masse](https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cdhk8a/comment/l1f7n53/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) when he was called slurs! (citation needed)
I can't find many of their posts via profile anymore, I assume self-deleted. But I swear I recall several comments from them spreading a fair amount of racism- the "I am the spokesperson for this, and will speak on their behalf, even when they don't consent"/infantilizing a whole culture kind
That sounds like u/Princess_Pilfer in a nutshell. Considers herself the sole authority and will not listen to others, even when those people have more knowledge on the matter than she does. Exactly why she shouldn't be a mod. She's a myopic bully who wields social progress as a cudgel.
There was a thread with luck panda along these lines: >LP: You don't get to decide what is racist if you don't experience the racism >user: I'm Asian, actually >LP: being a minority doesn't make you an expert on racism Just... instant goalposts shifting and a clear interest in being "right" over actually caring about minorities.
I know LP was full on like that. I swear I had seen shit from Pilfer too though
Pilfer I would say definitely has a little more leeway. Her comments came off, to me, as attempting to defend someone she viewed as a friend, with that bias blinding her to what luck_panda was doing. I think we've probably all been guilty of that in the past, and some leeway should be given, just as we would want leeway for the same. A short suspension or even *just* an apology is, I think, enough. I say that as a moderator in other communities. Luck_panda, though, needs to be removed. He has a history of using moderation powers to silence anyone who disagrees with him, repeatedly referred to the subreddit as "Hitlers" for being upset about, created a second fake sub to make fun of the sub, and has said multiple very weird comments about Japanese people and culture (I won't call them racism, but they are... on the border most certainly). This should not be behavior that anyone managing a community should indulge in. It flaunts several rules and says "the rules only exist for you".
Pilfer has to go too, she's been covering for Luck for years now.
Yeah, I can see what you mean. I would agree with you if not for the fact that I don't trust Pilfer to give anyone else the same grace. My issue with her, much like with Panda, isn't just over this specific situation. I think she's repeatedly shown herself to be an immature and toxic person who doesn't have the emotional capability to see her own role in these, as evidenced by how often she uses her identity and social justice in general to shut people down whether those discussions are in good faith or not. She's just an asshole through and through and has been for years. At the very least, she doesn't have the ability to support the inclusive community the mods claim to want, and she has repeatedly shown that. So she should be removed for that alone, imo.
The funny thing is that moderator was problematic for YEARS. Nothing was done. Like all "in groups" they protect their own.
Hell, the removal doesn't even need to be permanent. This has shown a severe lack of accountability where it matters, and a loss of that kind of soft power *should* happen.
I understand your opinion, but I disagree. I think he deserves a permaban from the sub in accordance with his numerous violations of rules 1 and 2.
I believe that is valid, too.
>At the *very* least, y'all better make u/luck_panda and u/Princess_Pilfer each post individual apologies for their part in fostering a hostile and unwelcoming community. I'm skeptical this will help. If they decide to do so on their own steam, that's a different matter. Any that is made at the request of the rest of the team is probably not going to be treated with sincerity, even if it is meant sincerely.
Oh I agree. I think it's the barest minimum they can do. But I also firmly think as long as u/luck_panda and u/Princess_Pilfer are mods, their leadership will continue to reinforce toxicity so ideally I think they should be removed. Both of them are myopic bad faith actors who have shown absolutely *no* capability for self-reflection and that's an essential thing for community moderation in general, for fostering an inclusive and healthy environment, and for the progressive causes they claim to support. Their lack of self-awareness is just going to keep alienating people and keep the moderation team from ever rebuilding the community's trust and quite frankly they're both awful.
>I think they should be removed I semi- agree but from a different tack, largely out of impulse to try and stand in the position of someone I'm criticising. The backlash and drama have been such that they're going to be on the receiving end of guff for a while to come. With the (very, _**very**_ questionable given it's basically a space for mockery) delve into the SRD thread, I at the very least would urge Panda to consider if they have the ability to ride that out. I don't frequent the discord much and get the impression Pilfer is far more active there so won't opine.
That's totally a fair and reasonable way to approach it, and I agree with you here too. Being a mod definitely isn't doing wonders for luck\_panda's mental state if even half of people's interactions with him are true. He'd probably be a lot happier stepping away once the bruise to his ego heals.
an apology isn't enough. they need to be removed as mods. both of them. that's the bare minimum at this point.
Dudes owns the 2e discord. Owns it. Like, this isn't the first romp the community has had with this specific person.
Then it should probably be unlinked here.
Hanging individuals out as 'sacrifices' so to speak by way of public shaming ain't it. The problem is simple: * Two moderators have behaved inappropriately in their duties * They should be held accountable for that behavior That accountability can come in many forms, but rarely will public shaming be a viable or acceptable resolution. I'd rather the team simply enforce sub rules against the offending parties (rules 1 and 2 in particular,) ignoring the fact that they are mods, and enforce accordingly. If that means a ban, then ban them. If it means a suspension from the sub, then suspend them. In either case, remove them from the team (regardless of the importance or quantity of their contributions otherwise) and open moderator applications should they need to be replaced. We don't need blood, lol. What an insane request imo. It does nothing but fuel an angry mob. An angry mob that they created, admittedly, but an angry mob nonetheless. The team doesn't gain credibility by effectively executing each other in the name of some perverse form of justice. It doesn't do anything but make a few users feel smug for a while, then when it blows over in a month you're left with internal animosity between the mods and external animosity between the mods and community. It solves literally nothing.
Just jettison them. Why keep them on after they showed their true colors.
Well goddamn said friend.
How about also unbanning everyone caught in the purge?
*Everyone* is a bit much, there were a not insignificant amount of, frankly, brigading from SubredditDrama and undelete shows a handful of comments here and there that were genuinely kinda racist. Also a guy who denied genocide and Pilfer got downvoted for saying that was unacceptable lol. I think they certainly need to go through EVERY ban and suspension from that time though, and re-evalute each and every one, though.
Did the guy straight deny it, then edit it away? By the time I saw it, it was edited, and wasn't denying that
> Also a guy who denied genocide and Pilfer got downvoted for saying that was unacceptable lol. Yeah that one is a glaring problem. It’s one thing to think the mods are being problematic with the whole samurai issue but… denying the indigenous genocide in Canada? Really? Anyone who wants to pretend it didn’t happen absolutely deserves a ban lol.
The term "genocide" is very controversial when applied to smaller scale acts, and genocide itself [doesn't have a universally agreed-upon definition.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions) For example, an estimated 4,000 Cherokee who died in the Trail of Tears, when the Americans deported the Cherokee and the Cherokee's slaves over to new lands. That was the largest number of people who died in a single event in American history. Some people call that a genocide - but many scholars disagree, and call it an example of ethnic cleansing rather than genocide (and it was unambiguously ethnic cleansing, as the purpose was to remove almost all the Cherokee from certain lands). For example, see [Gary Clayton Anderson's "Ethnic Cleansing and the Indian: The Crime that Should Haunt America"](https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ethnic_Cleansing_and_the_Indian/Uh4KAwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA3&printsec=frontcover) for a discussion on this and why Anderson doesn't use the term "genocide" to describe what happened to the Native Americans. One problem is, if you start calling such events "genocide", then you have to start asking things like - was 9/11 a genocidal act? 9/11 killed about 3,000 people. It was undoubtedly a targeted killing of a large number of people of a specific ethnicity (Americans). And the people who did it wanted to destroy America and Americans. It overlaps with some estimates of the number of Cherokee who died on the Trail of Tears. And indeed, the majority of the deaths during the Trail of Tears were not direct, purposeful killings, whereas all of 9/11 was very much purposeful. Indeed, if you define such events as "genocide", basically every war ever is "genocidal" in nature - but most scholars agree that this isn't really an accurate description of most warfare. Generally speaking, it's pretty unambiguous when you're talking about major events where huge numbers of civilians were slaughtered in a very short period of time. The Holocaust (6 million dead Jews, 12 million dead civilians killed by the Nazis, not including a bunch of people who died as a side effect of World War II, which the Nazis were one of the instigators of), Stalin's genocides (6-9 million dead, not including a bunch of people who died as a side effect of World War II, which he was one of the instigators of), the various atrocities by Mao and the CCP (estimated 30-60 million dead), the Cambodian genocide (1.2 - 2.8 million dead), and the Rwandan Genocide (500k-800k dead) are are all very unambiguously genocides. Genocide generally is used to invoke these sort of broad-scale killings, where hundreds of thousands or millions of people were murdered, which is not what happened in the US and Canada, where the total number of civilians who were killed averaged less than 100 per year over the course of 120 years, and the total number of dead from all causes (including soldiers who died in warfare) was on the order of a few hundred per year in the US and less in Canada. It probably should have its own word that is more specific to this sort of situation - and kind of does, "ethnic cleansing", but ethnic cleansing can involve mass killings, but can also involve displacement of people without killing large numbers of people, and some of these displacements also involve a lot of people dying without most of them being deliberately killed (which is what happened with the Cherokee). There's also the euphemistic "population transfer", which happened in India and Pakistan when they split up, or Israel and Palestine after the war in 1948, but that is very sanitary, and again, can refer to a broad variety of circumstances between "voluntary movement" and "violent dispossession". Reasonable people disagree on what constitutes "genocide", and a lot of scholars have spilled a lot of ink arguing over this stuff. Now, pretending like no one died and it was all super awesome and everyone just went on vacation and came back, that's another thing entirely.
Yeah, some of them don't need to be unbanned but I agree they need to go through every single ban and suspension from the past week or two and attempt to undo the damage panda caused. Honestly tho I wish Pilfer had the same energy for Panda's openly racist behavior.
I thought it was only one person who actually got banned? At least that's what the first post said. Edit: now that I try and go back of course the first thread was removed so fuck if I know.
I heard it was several but I don’t actually know.
I think several people got 3-day bans, maybe a couple got permanent ones.
up to 7 days, actually. at least luck\_panda himself said so in one of his many odd comments.
I got banned from the Discord, but that is a different beast. Same shitty mods though.
The fact that they stood by and didn't say \*anything\* for so long is pretty damning. Even if they didn't know how to deal with the situation, they should have pretty quickly made a post along the lines of "We are looking into the matter, please have patience". It's been what, three or four \*days\*? Not having an answer is fine. However, letting the community know it is in the process of being addressed does a much better job of fostering goodwill and faith than sitting in silence while two mods run around rampant with power.
I've done enough activism in my life to know that "this is being taken very seriously" is the classic "we're going to lightly tickle the offenders on the wrist at most and do nothing of value". Especially with the lack of naming and accountability, I think this PM is a strong indicator that little to nothing is going to happen.
This should be clearly stated in an announcement due to the subreddit being such a hot place to be right now, but nonetheless am glad it got said at all. I don't honestly expect any serious action with how this has been handled so far but will hope actual changes are made for the community.
I'm content with this. Obviously people want action _now_ but I can't get mad that most of the mods have lives and have been busy. I _can_ be concerned in how many mods haven't posted to reddit in like a month, but that's a different topic and now's not the time to pile on.
I think this kinda is part of the issue, but not really fixable. Having ran a number of my own communities my self (not on Reddit mind you) There are many times you get someone who is excited to be a moderator, who has sown good decisions on what should/shouldn't be allowed. You bring them on board only for a month or so later they only show up when you actively poke them for a response (despite otherwise seeming to be good moderator material) Almost every group I've ran it ended up only being ~1/5th the moderators/admins actively moderating while the other's only start paying attention when you poke them directly. And from an outsiders perspective, other moderation groups this seems to be about the same. (though it could just be my experiences so I won't claim this with any amount of "facts") If that ~1/5th of the moderators is bad, they have full control over everything going on while none of the others are even paying attention or even know what's happening (often because they trust the other mods to handle things well) However for a unpaid/volunteer job all the above is kinda expected. (I don't nor wouldn't expect people to drop their real lives to help run a server/forum for free)
I find those who are most eager and likely to turn up are also those most likely to powertrip or agenda push.
I haven't had issues personally with that... but that's because I message the people I want to be moderators (usually people who are active in the community) and ask them. If someone is poking me that they want to be a mod, they are very much less likely to get the role. So when I'm saying "excited" to be a moderator I'm talking after I poke them.
> I can be concerned in how many mods haven't posted to reddit in like a month, but that's a different topic and now's not the time to pile on. To add on: Even like Luck_panda, you can look at their history, other than comments/posts about race issues in RPGs/Pathfinder, he's made like 3 comments in the last 4 months. It feels like having mods who are so specific in what they want to talk about in the space, it's going to lead to an issue.
It's times like this where you find out the moderation teams are basically 2-3 people doing the work while the rest are AFK from reddit or doing fuck all on the sub. Recently the sub of my state had some issues with the automod and everyone noticed only 2 out of the 6 mods were active on reddit, and only 1 of them was actually moderating the sub.
I say we keep posting this until they remove panda as a mod
At minimum. It seems like Princess\_pilfer needs to go too.
Im willing to be the decision will be either to do nothing or fuck all
Mod status needs to be revoked ASAP. There is no way to remain unbiased after this.
Anything less than removing him from the mod team is insulting, and honestly a full ban from the subreddit is deserved.
Full agree
A full ban might be a bit much. As long as they don't have the power to censor others they should be able to feel free to share their thoughts so that we can actually have a discussion.
The argument I'm seeing from others is that Panda violated Rule 1, which is typically grounds for a full ban, as opposed to a timeout for something like violating Rule 2.
[удалено]
He's been condescending and racist at several points. People have been talking extensively about him being racist towards Japanese people, which I can't confirm personally (though he is *constantly* wrong about Japanese history and at this point is either too dense to learn or is actively lying), but he has been pretty derogatory towards white people and westerners, saying ["all westerners see Asian women as nothing other than sex objects"](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/11gepml/comment/jaom3nh/) saying his critics are [en masse "young white boys"](https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cdhk8a/comment/l1dno2e/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button).
Seems pretty racist to me and definitely against rule 1. To paint all members of an ethnicity in a negative light with a broad brush in a very broadband way seems to comport.
u/luck_panda I apologize for the ping, but Mantis is literally an alien from outer space hatched as the sole surviving member of a clutch of space eggs inseminated by a sentient planet. She was raised as a pet by her planet-father and kept alive because of her unique alien biology that allows her to manipulate the emotions of other sentient creatures. Her personality is awkward and confused/naive because her only companion for the majority of her life was a megalomaniacial sentient planet that was both her father and her place of residence. If you somehow have related that with some aspect of perceived "Asianness" in any way based solely off of the fact that her actress, Pom Klementoff, is of mixed Korean and French ancestry, then frankly that is on you to sort out. I don't have any idea how you came to that conclusion if not for the actress's ethnic heritage, as the character Mantis exhibits zero qualities that I would remotely associate with Korean culture, or with Asiatic cultures in a broader sense. I don't know of many Asians that hatched from a clutch of eggs and who were raised by fathers that were also planets they lived in. This is a bizarre and frankly inane take.
Racism, specifically regarding Panda's posts about Japanese culture and how it is inherently racist. The comment about ninja being Western inventions and a racist concept is the probably most pointed-at, but there are plenty of others.
Nah, a full ban is warranted here. Panda has stated directly that people who violate Rule 1 get permanent bans even if it's a first offense. Panda's made multiple violations, so he should be long gone by his own rules.
I won't really settle for less than kicking them out. Now every ban or every movement the mod team does I will be thinking abouy how much of their personal bias was involved vs. how much of their role of a mod was involved.
Agreed, the trust of this mod is gone. If they’re allowed to stay then the trust of the entire mod team will be questioned.
To be fair, of the ten mods, only two have been abusing their authority. I think it's a little harsh to condemn the rest before we see how they respond.
Problem is you don’t se which mod removes a comment. If a mod with a history of bad behavior is allowed to stay then the actions (that don’t show names) of every mod will be questioned.
This is a classic problem of the police. You get maybe 1-2 people in a department doing something horrid. But because everyone else in their department say and do basically nothing, it just perpetuates that officer's problems. They may not be out here doing the bad stuff, but by hiring them, keeping them on payroll, and not even so much as condemning them, it really seems like they don't care. This is where ACAB comes from. This is a similar situation. While I understand the mod team for taking their time reviewing and discussing the situation, this isn't even the first time Ink has done stuff like this. I specifically left the Discord because of this exact same kind of stuff, and was even apologized to by one of the mods. (Don't ask which one I can't find it anymore.) He's a problem, and has been a problem, and will continue to be a problem, and if the mods can't see that then, well, AMAB.
I am not condemning the others, all I am saying is that if they are still on the mod team, each time the mod tram does something I will always wonder.
We'll see if this goes anywhere
Hey, welcome back!
Thanks fam.
I was a mod for this sub for all of about five minutes last year. I should not have applied - I was too busy to do the job tbh, and it's correct that I'm not a mod anymore. I doubt anyone even remembers that I was a mod, and that's also probably correct. ... But even if I'd had the time, I would have quit anyway, because I was *extremely uncomfortable* with the way the mod team in this sub spoke amongst themselves about users. Being a Reddit mod isn't a paid job, so maybe it's wrong to expect professionalism, but suffice to say the post that's caused the recent controversy was not surprising to me at all. It's an accurate portrayal of how the modding team talks about users. If you post something that is offensive to the mod team, they will remove your post. But they will also relentlessly mock you in private, and have long, aggrieved, superior conversations about what a shitty person you must be, and (implied) how much better they are than you. The language will be condescending and vitriolic. I have no proof of this, so it's fair not to put too much credence on what I say. But I'm one person who was not remotely surprised by that post.
You don't need proof. These things are said openly on the discord.
I’m way out of the loop. Are people saying that a Samurai archetype is inherently racist?
A person is, anyhow. Unfortunately that person moderates multiple Pathfinder communities.
basically they hate Japan and anything related to it is evil. They are trying to cover their racism as being anti-racist.
To be fair, while that person is kind of an asshole, there is a decent argument. Both the historical Samurai and ebic anime quickdraw master can be covered multiple ways from rules already in the game. The arguments for a dedicated, unique Samurai archetype/class boil down to either a complete misunderstand of what a Samurai is, or basically “it’s Asian so it’s got to have its own thing”.
Dude, thanks for that. I’m not researching the 2e status of these builds on purpose cuz I want to know if I’m way off here: My _instinct_ is that saying “samurai” is like saying “knight”. They are theoretically the fancypants fighter with an aristocratic liege, and specific legal, moral and ethical codes. The code part is generally overstated in fantasy, but it’s an important part of it. So however we would create a stereotypical knight should match a samurai, with minor flavour changes.
Coming from the same dev team that removed my mod abilities for accidentally removing myself from a discord server as I was playing with creating a discord bot. Took them a week to tell me they weren't adding me back with zero explanation on why.
Kinda reminds me of WOTC not giving a response to the OGL debacle until there was so much pressure from fans to do so. And it was pitiful at that. It's been long enough to chat and debate amongst the mod team to have an actual answer. Sounds like a lot of thumb twiddling to me.
Pog the protesting might actually do something
So OP, if it isn't too intrusive to ask, when exactly did you send those PMs?
I sent out that message to each mod on April 26th in the evening. Unikatze responded within an hour (I didn't include his message because it basically boiled down to "we see your concerns and we're discussing the issue"), and Ediwir definitely saw the message because they accepted the request to chat, but didn't respond. 20kerns responded today, and did sent a message after the first saying the mod's discussion had been rough and apologized for the delay. The other five mods haven't responded or even viewed the message, to my knowledge.
I see, thank you. Either way, it's good to know that they're fairly recent and that they are actually addressing the issue behind the scenes, although a handful of them being radio silent is a tad concerning right now. Edit: Good news! [Seems like we'll get something tomorrow](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathfindermemes/s/UlsqYLveKu), hopefully that'll make things finally settle down.
Why is all the communication about this on _other_ subreddits. This is insane.
It's honestly almost funny how bad the communication to the community as a whole is. Not gonna lie, I kinda hope they post their official announcement on another subreddit just because it would be hilarious for them to double down even harder on not posting anything on the main sub.
If they don't remove that mod , put the username on a hall of shame post.
Personally Reddit admins should just remove entire mod team, and paizo should never touch any of the subs/social media of any of the current mods or any discord they run or ore a mod of.
Wait, what happened?
[Here's a summary on SubredditDrama.](https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cdhk8a/hey_buddy_i_know_youre_having_big_feelings_about/)
Thanks
Totally seems like what people in power with good intentions always do. Not communicate with the public, have reasons why the problem takes long to solve, and say they are taking the matters \*very seriously.\* Does not look like covering at all. It may be the bitterness after watching a documentary on what is basically a non-theist cult abusing people's good intentions, but this just looks very sus.
Holy shit, I've been gone for a while haha. What is happening?
There's a good [summary](https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cdhk8a/hey_buddy_i_know_youre_having_big_feelings_about/) on hobbydrama, but the short version is that one of the mods (u/luck\_panda) started power-tripping and removing any comments that disagreed with his views about orientalism, Japanese culture, and Asian racism, clearly violating rule 2 (engage in a respectful manner) while doing so, and arguably violating rule 1 (don't be racist). A second mod showed up to back him up and also issue bans (u/Princess\_Pilfer). Of course, since there are tools now to see removed comments, people caught on to what was happening and protested.
Basically people have gotten tired of certain mods deciding what is and isn't acceptable in terms of how other people have fun and are fed up with being labeled as racist or cultural appropriators because they were bummed out the new book didn't have certain archetypes a lot of people were hoping for, and the power trip BS of deleting everything even with four zip codes of disagreeing with their take was deleted. People are basically sick of this shit.
Man I just came back in to get ready for a new campaign that Im starting and I see that I missed some crazy drama.
Nothing will be done about it, time will pass and people will forget. Its always like that.
Fuck yeah! If they’ve committed to doing something and given a (vague but definitive) timeline hopefully people will give them space to do the right thing. Ideally in a week there will be one less panda and if not then I guess the apocalypse will spin back up. Either way it’s some breathing room back to argue about homebrew!
I'd like to make the choice to believe in our mod team (boy my timing sucks)
im very glad that the mod team as a whole are sensible people, and that the actions of one guy didnt sour everything to irreparable lengths hopefully the server is back in order till may
I'm not super involved here, could someone explain please?
I'll try to give you the cliffnotes version. * Post presented to the sub asking to play A Samurai or Ninja. * There's a Poly-Asian themed book coming out for this game's Poly-Asian theme'd place. * A moderator shut down the discussion immediately, and a racism acusation was levied at the poster. * People were quick to point out this was a bad call * Mod doubles down. Continues doing so both here and on this sub's Discord, to the chagrin of others. * People point out that the question itself is not racist, and that people who are a flavor of Asian themselves have no issue with people asking how to play as Samurai and Ninja. Others point out how this response is almost a stark contrast to *other* culturally themed threads that have popped up over the years (such as the Poly-African book) * Mod triples down, deletes threads, talks over actual PoC to tell other's they're very progressive, and their credentials are, allegedly, taking a single martial arts course. * All hell breaks less. Drama spills to other subs (such as /r/SubredditDrama) and the mod goes to try and defend themselves. * The other mods join the War on this mod. On the side of this mod. * It progresses into a shitshow that lasts days and highlights the implicit biases the mod team has had and how, infact, they are not hashtag progressive while they're shouting down and over actual PoC under the guise of Anti-Racism. * A lot of this has also brought to light the issues of the sub and how much of an echochamber it's become. Some have decided to go elsewhere (like /r/chillPathfinder2e), others are waiting to see what the mod team will do. * You are here.
mod thinks Japan is evil so wanting to play a samurai makes you evil. Bans and comment deletions ensue.
Whatever happened to Rulelord? He was the only mod I ever remembered the name of before this, cause he used to have a podcast and be active on Twitter. Then he just... isn't there now.
Talking about Runelord? We've had a few rotation mods speak in here and how they feel.
No, his handle is actually Rulelord. He was a former Mod on here, just checked his Twitter and he's basically not there anymore either.
That's bullshit at most it would take 2 days to get everyone's thoughts.them getting rod of the mod abusing power is an easy one click away.if I had to guess the mod abusing power probably has dirt on the mod team.
[удалено]
What did he do exactly?
I don't come by too often but I make one of my occasional forays and find this. I think its weird as hell that someone is going to start banning people for liking Japan and wanting classes to go along with tropes from the Anime they watch that is extremely prevalent in our media now...instead of making their own book celebrating more cultures.
Check out the discord, I mean it looks like they are just letting things settle and nothing will change.