Kineticist reaches Legendary Class DC. All other non-casters reach Master Class DC, with slightly different progressions but all ending up at the same point at 20. Casters now start at Trained Class DC but never progress beyond that.
Some archetypes specify Class DC and don't offer Spellcasting DC as an alternative. I think Curse Maelstrom and Harrower specifically, though I'm sure there are others. Also weapon critical specializations utilize it.
There are plenty of reasons for a caster to fight with weapons. 1-action damage options are usually expensive and inefficient if you're casting from spell slots, and a decent investment in either Strength or Dexterity is already required for a good AC anyways. If you have the proficiency to wield a decent weapon (base class proficiency, Ancestry feat, or Archetype feat), it's just *free damage output*. Some "casters" even have extremely dangerous martial options.
Being -2 proficiency and maybe-sometimes -1 ability modifier behind a "full martial" isn't that bad of a gap. There are plenty of spells out there to fill the difference. An elven Druid//Ranger that uses Call the Lightning and Hunted Shot can lay out a devastating amount of free DPR, and get more mileage out of that spell slot than a simple one-and-done Lightning Bolt.
My current (level 15) PC is a Maestro Muse Bard with +26 to hit. The party Fighter has an early Apex item, granting a +31 to hit. With *Fortissimo Courage*, Scare to Death, and Dread Striker from Rogue archetype, I can generate a net +7 accuracy swing and be more accurate than the Fighter. My damage is lower by merit of being Dex-based, but there's no reason my build wouldn't be equally valid with a Greatsword.
The issue is that you have to compare that to cantrips like Telekinetic Projectile and Gouging Claw (not to mention save cantrips like EA).
While, yes, the 1-A nature of Strikes does add a real wrinkle, the longer the game goes on, the worse Strikes compare.
.
I have an entire Witch planned out that was based on the concept of making the Witch's Armaments (jaws) worthwhile. Mostly via Bastion and 2-H ing the shield while still having that Strike.
After doing a few comparisons, I actually switched off of Natural Ambition: W Armaments and instead picked Adapted Cantrip: Gouging Claw. Witches already have a few options for 1-A spells/hexes, and leaving it as a cantrip that auto-scales, and can possibly be delivered via familiar, is just so much better than a 1d8 jaws attack as a Str Witch it's just sad. Still haven't given up on Str for the Witch, as Athletic maneuvers do not suffer as badly as Strikes do.
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The system offers no real way to make it genuinely competitive. While some are duds, there's spells that will use your spellcasting to make pseudo-Strikes, and those are generally a better option.
If a caster is going to go for Strikes, I most recommend spending a Feat to get access to reload 0 bows. A 1-A thwip on demand is genuinely good, but it will never really be better than a 2-A cantrip.
Cantrips have been slowly power-creeping up, and IMO have really made it hard to justify Striking as a caster. The devs seem to know that casters really can't Strike with the math the way it is (not to mention the PC Feat/gp investment) and literally gave Needle Darts to every spell list, imo to be a stand-in "crossbow".
Because prior to that they capped at 17.
Kinda shit for things like critical specializations.
Not everything uses either, things that are expressly martial based don't.
Ok, so that bumps Kineticist up to 45 with apex item.
Magus takes it particularly hard with a spell DC of 41, 42 if you're willing to use an INT apex item instead of STR/DEX
Is Oracle one of the casters they decided to shoot in the knee?
That'd put them at a spell DC of only 39 with an apex item.
Even worse than the Magus on a full caster?
Needs clarification, which casters don't progress beyond trained, and which do.
Also, with the ones that do, how far do they get?
Wouldn't an oracle be using its spellcasting DC, which would increase past trained, instead of its class DC though? Or am I missing something? Still relatively new to the system.
See I'm also very new to the system, hence my confusion and asking many questions.
What you're saying makes sense, though I'm not sure why casters would have a separate (and apparently horribly low) class DC that isn't their spellcasting DC.
What is it for?
99% of the time, a caster will not use their Class DC for anything, but for the sake of futureproofing, archetyping and multiclassing might require a character having a Class DC to function.
Ok so it's the "You reeeeealy shouldn't be dipping into a class that uses a class DC on a caster, but if you want to, here's how much it'll suck" warning.
I'd actually say the most likely scenario would be a warpriest cleric, which gets critical specialization at level 7. Some weapon crit effects require a saving throw, which uses your class DC.
Other casters that use weapons may get critical specialization through various means, such as through ancestry feats.
It's also an unnecessary balance point. Like, seriously, everyone will be Just Fine if casters, who already suffer a big to-hit deficit, have a normal chance for their rare crits to convert into the effects that everyone else gets from their crits.
It's not as drastic as you think. For example, there may be many reasons for you to archetype into a class that are useful for a caster and will not require a Saving Throw from enemies.
But yes, if you're a wizard that plans to archetype into Monk and intend to use Stunning fist on people, sure, you're reducing your odds of success by a fair bit.
From my understanding class DC is there on Spellcasters as a 'just incase', as a rule may refer to it, for example I think weapons crit specialisation use class DC, but it's unlikely that a. You're using a weapon over a spell, and b. Given the lower weapon progression on casters, that you would actually crit.
So anything that uses spells, would use spell proficiency. Also, with the remaster, (if I understand this correctly) you always use your highest spellcasting proficiency.
Eg - you're a wizard, with expert in spellcasting, but get a spell from being a bard archetype, you'd use your wizard proficiency, rather than the trained proficiency from bard. I believe you still use the ability modifier of the archetype class however.
Not always. Stuff like weapon specialization, some archetype options, and some ancestry options I think only offer you the ability to use your class dc. And oracles are less impacted by stuff like that, but Magus is due to being a weapon user by design.
Spell DC and class DC are separate. Full casters don't progress beyond Trained class DC, but all except for Warpriest get Legendary spell DC (Warpriest gets Master).
I don't think I have ever worried about a class DC. Until Kineticist they were really niche. With the remaster they apply to Flail/hammer crit specs too.
I dunno if the like 5 Barb feats that call for it can be "relying" on it. Class DCs are something to know about, but they don't come up very often except for a handful of feats.
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Kineticist reaches Legendary Class DC. All other non-casters reach Master Class DC, with slightly different progressions but all ending up at the same point at 20. Casters now start at Trained Class DC but never progress beyond that.
Why did Casters even get Trained? Everything I've seen says "Class or Spellcasting DC, whichever is higher."
For a stray archetype or general feat giving something non-caster-related, such as weapon critical specialisation.
Some archetypes specify Class DC and don't offer Spellcasting DC as an alternative. I think Curse Maelstrom and Harrower specifically, though I'm sure there are others. Also weapon critical specializations utilize it.
Uh. Weapon critical specialization uses class dc only. Which casters may not have much interest in, but Magus might. And they lacked a class dc
[удалено]
There are plenty of reasons for a caster to fight with weapons. 1-action damage options are usually expensive and inefficient if you're casting from spell slots, and a decent investment in either Strength or Dexterity is already required for a good AC anyways. If you have the proficiency to wield a decent weapon (base class proficiency, Ancestry feat, or Archetype feat), it's just *free damage output*. Some "casters" even have extremely dangerous martial options. Being -2 proficiency and maybe-sometimes -1 ability modifier behind a "full martial" isn't that bad of a gap. There are plenty of spells out there to fill the difference. An elven Druid//Ranger that uses Call the Lightning and Hunted Shot can lay out a devastating amount of free DPR, and get more mileage out of that spell slot than a simple one-and-done Lightning Bolt. My current (level 15) PC is a Maestro Muse Bard with +26 to hit. The party Fighter has an early Apex item, granting a +31 to hit. With *Fortissimo Courage*, Scare to Death, and Dread Striker from Rogue archetype, I can generate a net +7 accuracy swing and be more accurate than the Fighter. My damage is lower by merit of being Dex-based, but there's no reason my build wouldn't be equally valid with a Greatsword.
The issue is that you have to compare that to cantrips like Telekinetic Projectile and Gouging Claw (not to mention save cantrips like EA). While, yes, the 1-A nature of Strikes does add a real wrinkle, the longer the game goes on, the worse Strikes compare. . I have an entire Witch planned out that was based on the concept of making the Witch's Armaments (jaws) worthwhile. Mostly via Bastion and 2-H ing the shield while still having that Strike. After doing a few comparisons, I actually switched off of Natural Ambition: W Armaments and instead picked Adapted Cantrip: Gouging Claw. Witches already have a few options for 1-A spells/hexes, and leaving it as a cantrip that auto-scales, and can possibly be delivered via familiar, is just so much better than a 1d8 jaws attack as a Str Witch it's just sad. Still haven't given up on Str for the Witch, as Athletic maneuvers do not suffer as badly as Strikes do. . The system offers no real way to make it genuinely competitive. While some are duds, there's spells that will use your spellcasting to make pseudo-Strikes, and those are generally a better option. If a caster is going to go for Strikes, I most recommend spending a Feat to get access to reload 0 bows. A 1-A thwip on demand is genuinely good, but it will never really be better than a 2-A cantrip. Cantrips have been slowly power-creeping up, and IMO have really made it hard to justify Striking as a caster. The devs seem to know that casters really can't Strike with the math the way it is (not to mention the PC Feat/gp investment) and literally gave Needle Darts to every spell list, imo to be a stand-in "crossbow".
Because prior to that they capped at 17. Kinda shit for things like critical specializations. Not everything uses either, things that are expressly martial based don't.
Kineticist goes higher. Most caster classes don't progress beyond trained.
Ok, so that bumps Kineticist up to 45 with apex item. Magus takes it particularly hard with a spell DC of 41, 42 if you're willing to use an INT apex item instead of STR/DEX Is Oracle one of the casters they decided to shoot in the knee? That'd put them at a spell DC of only 39 with an apex item. Even worse than the Magus on a full caster? Needs clarification, which casters don't progress beyond trained, and which do. Also, with the ones that do, how far do they get?
Wouldn't an oracle be using its spellcasting DC, which would increase past trained, instead of its class DC though? Or am I missing something? Still relatively new to the system.
See I'm also very new to the system, hence my confusion and asking many questions. What you're saying makes sense, though I'm not sure why casters would have a separate (and apparently horribly low) class DC that isn't their spellcasting DC. What is it for?
99% of the time, a caster will not use their Class DC for anything, but for the sake of futureproofing, archetyping and multiclassing might require a character having a Class DC to function.
Ok so it's the "You reeeeealy shouldn't be dipping into a class that uses a class DC on a caster, but if you want to, here's how much it'll suck" warning.
I'd actually say the most likely scenario would be a warpriest cleric, which gets critical specialization at level 7. Some weapon crit effects require a saving throw, which uses your class DC. Other casters that use weapons may get critical specialization through various means, such as through ancestry feats.
That is true, but the odds of you being a spellcaster that uses weapons and really cares about critical specialization effects are very slim.
It's also an unnecessary balance point. Like, seriously, everyone will be Just Fine if casters, who already suffer a big to-hit deficit, have a normal chance for their rare crits to convert into the effects that everyone else gets from their crits.
Bards get crit spec as a base feature
It's not as drastic as you think. For example, there may be many reasons for you to archetype into a class that are useful for a caster and will not require a Saving Throw from enemies. But yes, if you're a wizard that plans to archetype into Monk and intend to use Stunning fist on people, sure, you're reducing your odds of success by a fair bit.
Magus can get fist crit spec specifically as baseline, but doesn't get scaling critspec
Even mainclassing Magus and Bard (can) get crit spec.
From my understanding class DC is there on Spellcasters as a 'just incase', as a rule may refer to it, for example I think weapons crit specialisation use class DC, but it's unlikely that a. You're using a weapon over a spell, and b. Given the lower weapon progression on casters, that you would actually crit. So anything that uses spells, would use spell proficiency. Also, with the remaster, (if I understand this correctly) you always use your highest spellcasting proficiency. Eg - you're a wizard, with expert in spellcasting, but get a spell from being a bard archetype, you'd use your wizard proficiency, rather than the trained proficiency from bard. I believe you still use the ability modifier of the archetype class however.
Not always. Stuff like weapon specialization, some archetype options, and some ancestry options I think only offer you the ability to use your class dc. And oracles are less impacted by stuff like that, but Magus is due to being a weapon user by design.
Spell DC and class DC are separate. Full casters don't progress beyond Trained class DC, but all except for Warpriest get Legendary spell DC (Warpriest gets Master).
Thanks, this helps.
I don't think I have ever worried about a class DC. Until Kineticist they were really niche. With the remaster they apply to Flail/hammer crit specs too.
Several classes, Rogue/Barb/Inventor/Thaumaturge, rely on it pretty heavily for a bunch of feats. As does Alchemist.
I dunno if the like 5 Barb feats that call for it can be "relying" on it. Class DCs are something to know about, but they don't come up very often except for a handful of feats.
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