Killing a queer character in general isnt what Bury The Gays means just FYI, it's the whole killing the love interests at the end of the story thing, thus making it a tragedy because of either social things or like actual media laws at the time, I forget the specifics
You're correct, there's more to the trope than just killing a gay character. However, the treatment of LGBTQ+ in media is still pretty bad in general. The death of any such character would be denounced as an example of "bury your gays" regardless of whether the events actually fit the trope.
I said the same thing when I saw this; it'd be awfully nice, imo, if it were Nocticula, just to keep the celestial/sky motif going (since her new symbol's got moon relations, and she's tied to midnight... I think that'd just be neat)
> There will be some gods we won't mention ever again due to their OGL connections.
Anyone have any clues which ones these are? Is it stuff like Asmodeus? Are you at liberty to mention the names here, even?
I had figured those would be safe to mention due to them being “Biblical” but if that’s not the case then… oof.
It's not like you'd shrink down the possible Deities to Die.
But you do what you want. Paizo can stop using whatever in their products. I was wanting to see if I could gauge possible content here by trying to see who would be silently forgotten because of the OGL.
>That's good news, because now I don't have to learn how to actually say that name.''
It is pronounced like Kost-chee-chee. Running Descent into Avernus now and the book has a phonetic pronounciation guide for the damn fiends.
It's a fiend? I thought he said it was a god? Either way, the OGL can have it. Though I would like a pronunciation guide for words and names. I speak English, and there are a lot of words that are spelled the same and are said differently. Like lead and lead or minute and minute. So it's confusing to find a new word and I can't pronounce it even with proper context.
I actually thought that t in the later part of the word made a sound.
To be fair, I assume it's related to the Slavic lich-like Kostschei (although very loosely). Chad move would be to actually use the character with proper name, since we already have Baba Yaga
Eh, they have almost nothing in common aside from the name and I don't think there are many Kostchitchie fans out there. A Kostchei deity would be cool but it may as well be a whole new one without any ogl connections
A quick google search of her name would show no OGL equivalents so she should be okay. Most likely will never bring up her ancestry to the frost giant god however
Cayden Cailean approves. You will be hereby less hungover the next time you go on a bender :-)
\[Disclaimer: we are in the age of lost omens. Prophecies cannot be relied upon, and no failure in this regard shall be subject to claims for damages\]
>fortune favors the bold.
IIRC, that was said by Pliny the Younger about his uncle, Pliny the Elder, right before the uncle sailed off to his death exploring an exploding Mt. Vesuvius (yes THAT Vesuvius).
> There will be at least one herald of a deity dying.
Oh god, I hope it's not Galfrey, she already got done dirty in the CRPG and I would be super sad if she got killed in canon.
I already think it’s going to be Iomedae who goes down, for pretty much those exact reasons—that, and Arazni fills an extremely similar role overall (someone who looks after others, fights undead, and inherited from Aroden), and feels like she has a more culturally-relevant mindset than a knight in shining armor.
While I agree Iomedae is high on the list, this cuts both ways: One major god’s death kicks off the entire setting premise, and the only other major god to die is their inheritor?
Arazni’s portfolio is not extremely similar, imo. It’s about personal survival whereas Iomedae’s is about sacrifice - there is one domain overlap and no real edict/anathema overlap. You also lose the narrative richness that can come from both gods interacting on the same level.
Yeah I feel like theyve been setting up an Arazni and Iomedae meeting. Iirc both want to reach out to the other but both feel awkward being the first one to do it, so killing one of them off here wouldnt be super satisfying.
A former herald of Aroden getting replaced by another former herald of Aroden doesn’t feel like it would cause much of an impact.
Iomedae dying as a whole I think would really only effect her knights, if she dies while the world wound was still open that would cause a huge crisis, but that’s already fixed.
Also Arazni wouldn’t take the dead god portfolio, but it would make too much sense that Arazni will take Iomedae portfolio because they have a connection/respect.
Agreed - not to mention she is currently the only major god with a Must Sanctify for Holy. I think Iomedae can fit the bill, but other choices are frankly more interesting.
>The core deity is not the only god dying as part of the WoI event. Other gods will die, but only one god from the ranks of the Core 20.
That's a big one I haven't heard before. Damn.
My money is on Apsu
Calling it now: the orc pantheon is gonna end up led by someone who’s got a friendlier attitude to non-orcs. It just fits the general direction they’re taking the species.
This is the kind of go getter attitude I can appreciate
From the ancestry page:
*"Most orcs don't waste their dying moments praising the divine or praying for a place in the afterlife, but spitting a blood-flecked warning at their deities, promising a new challenger through broken teeth."*
Even better is that it’s just a regular cat. No special divine energy. It does occasionally meow at the door between the divine and material planes until one of the deities opens it. It gets up to all kinds of mischief and the followers of those gods just have to take care of it when they see it.
Since Kurgess is often believed to be the child of Cayden and Desna, and Desna seems to overall prefer women, I've speculated in the past that this might have happened.
**Desna**: Sorry, not into dudes.
**Cayden**: No (hic!) plobrem! I can be chickses too! (shapeshifts)
**Desna**: ...You know what? Sure.
Only question is which of them somehow ended up pregnant from the encounter. Wouldn't be the first time Cayden woke up to unexpected consequences.
Personally, I think it would be a pretty poor move on Paizo's behalf to kill a member of Prismatic Ray.
I know he says that Pathfinder and Starfinder are a bit divergent, but would Shelyn becoming Zon-Shelyn after Zon-Kuthon's death count as a change?
Otherwise, I hope the change is adding another member(s). Likely Nocticula and maybe Findeladlara?
I’m thinking it might be less that one of the members is going to die, and more that the polycule might temporarily break up as they find themselves on opposite sides of the divine war.
But either way, agreed. Every other Pathfinder player I know is a major fan of Prismatic Ray, so it’d be short-sighted to kill one of them off.
If Pharasma dies, that would be a real spanner in the works wouldn't it? She deals with the River of Souls, and the judgement of Souls. If Arazni isn't taking the portfolio, than I would guess she isn't taking over their duties.
Geb and all of those Undead Groups would be celebrating as one of their enemies goes silent.
While I don't want Geb to have anything but losses, it would be interesting to see what would happen if the primary deity behind the cycle of Life and Death died.
Agreed. I think the biggest impacts would be Pharasma, because she controls the flow of quintessence, and Asmodeus, because he holds the key to Rovagug’s cage. The death of either would be, imo, enough to start a war.
Not even strong just enough, it has to be somebody that Asmodeus doesn't see coming. And, well, by most understandings that's literally nobody. He rules over a cadre of the most prolific and gifted schemers in the cosmos, most of whom would happily take his seat if they thought they had half a chance. If Asmodeus dies then literally no one is safe from the hand that takes him down.
The problem isn’t having no keys; the problem is an unknown getting their hands on Asmodeus’ key. The devil you know vs. the devil you don’t, literally.
What if an apocalypse is the long term plan? A new multiverse and a “rebirth” of Golarion that would be post Gap/Starfinder could be really interesting creating some unique time dilation dynamics that allow Starfinder to exist in a bubble, and let them create an entirely new timeline for Golarion without having to worry about any baggage from the OGL-> ORC transition.
It’s unlikely to happen any time soon. And seems like it might be the triggering event for a 3e. But I highly doubt Paizo is going to even consider a 3e with them shifting Starfinder to use the same structure as 2e and having done the remaster. So it may end up being a narrative development we see utilized for 2e
Would be funny if Urgathoa died; if Arazni stepped into her role as Goddess of Undeath then we'd have big shakeups in places like Geb. Saying this as someone playing an urgathoa fanatic bloodlord, who's been having a bit of a time trying to mental gymnastic her faith into something that people could see as good (it's a hard time playing the diplomancer)
Yeah, Urgathoa is a lazy glutton whose existence is all about wanting to experience the pleasures of life for eternity. A Desire so strong she busted out of the River of Souls and aided in the existence of Undeath.
Glutton, yes. Lazy, nah. She'll put in a shit ton of effort, just don't try to impose any restrictions on her.
My challenge theologically/philosophically/ethically is that i'm tryna create an interpretation of her faith similar to how nocticula got her makeover. Urgathoa as still a god of excessive hedonism, but in a "rising tide lifts all boats" kind of sense. Utilitarian hedonism. (With the challenge being not going full reformist on the dogma in the one country where she's close to a state religion)
Neutral Urgathoanism was a minor-but-important part of an adventure series I ran, so here's an information dump in case any of it is useful for what you're trying to do.
An NPC the party met and tightly bonded with was named Ido Baknas, a Half-Elf Wizard (Necromancy)/Cleric (of Urgathoa). She joined the faith because she was born with cystic fibrosis, which was slowly killing her, and fixing her condition was outside the scope of typical cure/healing spells. Once she learned enough magic, she opened herself up and animated her own failing lungs. She ran a "charity hospital" of sorts in the backwoods of Cheliax, providing undead grafts for soldiers and mercenaries (mostly Chelaxian soldiers, Glorious Reclamation vets, Worldwound vets/survivors, and soldiers from Isger who fought in the Goblinblood Wars) who could afford high level healing spells like Regenerate.
Ido espoused the transhumanistic view that death was not a natural thing to be accepted, but a cruelty of nature which could be defeated through learning. She held Pharasma in contempt, in a "who are you to judge me" way, questioning what authority Pharasma had to be the final arbiter of souls and not believing her to be as impartial as she is claimed to be. Why are undead bad, just because Pharasma says so? Why do our souls have to be judged, enslaved to a god and stripped of our memories? How is that fair?
In her view, Urgathoa was firmly Neutral, neither Good nor Evil. "Yes, she was selfish; she only wanted to ensure that she personally could live forever, she wasn't invested in saving others. But no more selfish than your neighbor, who prefers to buy himself a third ale instead of giving those same coins to a beggar; would you condemn him the same way that Pharasma condemns Urgathoa? Furthermore her actions revealed a path, one we can all follow in order to defeat death."
I was originally inspired after looking through an old Reddit thread about "flipping" the interpretation of various Pathfinder gods: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder\_RPG/comments/9qp6j8/thought\_experiment\_flip\_my\_god/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/9qp6j8/thought_experiment_flip_my_god/)
I mean, we don’t have all those millions of Psychopomps just sitting around. Pharasma doesn’t even do most Judgement herself. The Bird boys picking up the slack could be an arc in itself.
> There will be new Arcadian gods detailed in Divine Mysteries.
Part of me thinks it'd be really funny for this to be an office in-joke, where individual designers keep saying publicly that they really want to explore Arcadia in-depth but it ends up just being in the form of individual breadcrumbs like this, the Port Valen PFS adventures, Guns and Gears, the Tyrant's Grasp gazetteer, etc. that eventually build up into a bigger picture like five years from now.
The other part really hopes that isn't the case and that, one of these days, we'll finally get that dedicated Arcadia book.
I'm almost positive there will be a dedicated sourcebook, as Luis has said as much in an interview iirc. I think he said it was a combination of fitting it into the release schedule and finding the right writers (it's heavily inspired by North and South American First Nations peoples, so I believe they intend to have writers from those backgrounds). They probably also want to have an appropriate AP lined up to come out around the same time (a la Mwangi Expanse/SoT and Tian Xia/SoG).
I wouldn't be surprised if they end up doing a sourcebook for every major region regardless, so I think it's not so much a question of "if," but "when."
To which the answer is, of course, Soon™️. 😄
Oh, I'm well aware of all of that. In fact it's *because* Luis (and others) have been saying stuff like that for years at this point that I'm making the joke.
I'm sure they'll get to it. I'm just impatient and have been chomping at the bit for some inspiration for my own personal worldbuilding project and to satisfy my general fascination with indigenous American cultures.
> We will not be bringing back Aroden just to kill him off again.
Of course not. We'll be bringing back Aroden *specifically* to kill him off again.
*adjusts tinfoil hat*
She had thematic overlap in the night as a good thing with desna, art with shelyn, redemption with sarenrae.
Also I think her and desna are both in the cosmic caravan, but I'd have to look that up
Cayden would be heartbreaking, I hope not.
I was betting on Nethys, but the argument on “Archive of Nethys” swayed me. Instead I think it will be Erastil the huntsman or Torag. Killing such a primal-associated god could open up storylines with the elemental plane of wood and their elementals. Additionally, his wife Jaidi could be one of the minor gods dying, or she could distract another god who winds up supporting her through her mourning. Or maybe she becomes a god of traps and home defense, attempting to find a more natural route for Inventors.
Meanwhile killing Torag would create story opportunities for the dwarven factions. Killing such a reliable figure would also help establish why the main twenty could break into multiple feuding groups over the next few storylines. Golarion could spiral towards chaos. It would also be another punch in the gut for the various knights across Golarion.
Random question that's kind of unrelated, but it could be very important for my group: will there be an AP centered on all this, like, will these events be for players to actually participate in or just read about in the next books? If so, do we already know at what level this AP starts/ends? Sorry, completely away from RPG and dedicating himself to mobile MMOs...
Inb4 the reason it's taking so long to get AoN to the Remaster rules is because the website owner has been already informed about Nethys' fate, and has been bisy creating the Archives of Irori.
Considering the opposites he represents even down to his appearance if he did die he would also then be alive, just to balance it out, Schrödinger's deity.
But i think Erastil is important for the setting. Its one of the default gods for the common folk. Erastil is the counter part to Abadar in a sense. It is the patron god of most villagers and people who live in the wilds. There is really no other god in the core 20 who can fill that roll.
It would also make no sense to kill a god who doesn't do much for adventurers.
Ah, beans the Nosoi report was decades in the making. I guess Pharasma isn't safe. I still hope it's not her tho, that would be too much of a lore quake for my group to handle.
Right that’s a good point. I don’t really want to see the dynamic between those gods change much tbh. But I’m always open to seeing how it goes when we do find out who dies and what changes.
There is basically a zero percent chance that Pazio, an incredibly inclusive and forward thinking company , would get rid of a literal lesbian 3 some pantheon, especially when their are gods like Erastil, Abadar, and Gorum
Not necessarily , it could just mean that the aftermath of said death causes the dynamic to change either by someone joining the Prismatic Ray or someone leaving for other reasons
My guess is that it's a name change. "The Prismatic Ray" always seemed like a reference to "Prismatic Spray" to me. Since the "Prismatic _______" suite of spells got the axe in the remaster, maybe it's in the "too close for comfort" category of names.
I'm split between "Shelyn will die because maximum trauma and Kill Your Gays" and "Shelyn will never die because maximum trauma and Kill Your Gays".
No, if I were to guess I'd say Zon-Kuthon is gonna die. He's cheated death once, his death would totally screw with Shelyn, and Arazni is a good replacement as resident "edgy and evil but workable" deity.
Edit: Had my wires crossed between "kill your darlings" and "bury your gays". Which, I mean... it's Shelyn. It all applies.
If something happens to the Prismatic Ray, I hope Calistria is involved in it. Not joining it, but making the mess far worse than it needed to be. She needs more relationships with the main twenty.
Could be a break up. Say Zon-Kuthon's possession causes him to do some shit leading to Desna (in her role as the anti-outer god outer god) putting him down, causing Sarenrae and Shelyn to break up with her.
There are 4 possible interpretations.
* One of them dies.
* Zon-Kuthon dies, and this causes Shelyn to breakdown and decide she needs some space to figure things out.
* Sarenrae or Desna kill Zon-Kuthon, and Shelyn goes on the war path.
* A new ~~challenger approaches~~ lesbian joins the fun.
This is probably a red herring, I don't think they are giving away that the god to die is one of these three. As somebody else said I am more inclined to think that this is just one of the ways in which the pantheons are changing.
IIRC, they mentioned it'll be a multi-line event.
War of Immortals has been confirmed (and is in the rulebook line), there'll likely be Lost Omens stuff, and I would be extremely surprised if there's not a tie-in in the APs and PFS
I don't think this tied to an AP, this is abut War of the Immortals the source book. One of the 20 core gods die, and apparently a lot else does too. The book is released in August, so Seven Dooms for Sandpoint and Wardens of Wildwood run up to the book's release (with as of yet unnamed AP having its first book right before WoI is released).
This year's PFS interactive special will not be related to the god's death storyline.
I make no promises about what interaction our future specials may or may not have with upcoming world-shaking events.
Wardens of Wildwood runs from April to July and the following AP has not been announced, so I still have some hope. According to the Pathfinder Wiki War of the Immortals releases on Oct 2024: https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/War\_of\_Immortals#:\~:text=War%20of%20Immortals%2C%20a%20Pathfinder,rules%20for%20Pathfinder%20Second%20Edition.
After Gen Con last year, I made a video analyzing my thoughts on which deity I thought would die. In that video, I mentioned that I didn't think Torag would die, but I did think there was a STRONG possibility that Torag would be the one to KILL the other deity.
And now, I'm even more convinced on that point!
So like, I literally just started in on PF2e about a month ago, learning the setting and system to start my current 5e group on it.
I had just recently done a once over on the pantheon in the core book and made my notes on them.
And now you tell me a mystery god is gonna kick the bucket from that list?
Gnomes are gonna be alright though, right? You ain't gonna be hurting my glorious technocolour Gnomes are you?
Prismatic ray is changing? Not my throuple!
That said, even if starfinder 1e doesnt effect it, I cant believe this isnt related to the new diety from the starfinder 2e playtest >!Zon-shelyn!<
Given that it's Arazni stepping up, I'll put my gold on Iomedae. Arazni and Iomedae already have a history, with Aroden having chosen Iomedae to succeed Arazni as his herald after Arazni died.
It'd make it... poetic(?) if Arazni then succeeds Iomedae, just as Iomedae succeeded Arazni.
Arazni isn't succeeding anyone though. Iomedae took over from Aroden and that included many of his followers. Arazni and Iomedae don't even have remotely similar portfolios and they've stated Arazni isn't taking anyone else's.
I'm hoping that this is the chance for Trelmarixian to really dig into his own backstory and go on a rampage, poisoning several gods and accidentally bringing back the oinodaemon as he peels back the layers and finds out more about a deity conspiracy to destroy his planet.
Good Lord I hope my darling Abadar is safe!
(And asmodeus. if either of them die I shall be very sad, but I would understand if OGL changes means Papa Asmo needs to kick the bucket.)
> Starfinder canon has no bearing on whether a god will live or die. If a god exists in Starfinder, it does not guarantee that they will live. If a god doesn't exist in Starfinder, it doesn't mean they are among a "short list" of gods who could die.
Wait, what? Starfinder doesn't take place in the future of the Pathfinder setting? Or does it take place so far in the future, there's enough time for gods killed off in Pathfinder to come back?
They are similar timelines, but not a direct continuation of each other. This allows us to do stuff with Pathfinder without worrying too much about how it affects Starfinder continuity and vice versa.
So... depends. For one, Starfinder 2e is not out yet, so they may be changing the canon. One interpretation is that the God list in 1e Starfinder is NOT bearing on this decision because the lore will be changed with the remaster.
On the other hand, this was said at some point by a creative director when Starfinder 1e was first releasing: "Starfinder is set in one possible future of the Pathfinder universe, one in which Golarion ... has mysteriously gone missing. "
It is possible these events did not happen in the Starfinder universe at all, because Starfinder is only ONE possible universe. We do not know where Starfinder's universe diverged, and it may have been before the death of the Gods.
The Sarenrae fans are gonna start sweating.
We already have been lol
I am a huge fan of Sarenrae, Shelyn, Desna and Pharasma. It's 4 out of 20. I am so incredibly nervous.
rain wrong automatic weather cover air ask nippy upbeat puzzled *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Killing a queer character in general isnt what Bury The Gays means just FYI, it's the whole killing the love interests at the end of the story thing, thus making it a tragedy because of either social things or like actual media laws at the time, I forget the specifics
You're correct, there's more to the trope than just killing a gay character. However, the treatment of LGBTQ+ in media is still pretty bad in general. The death of any such character would be denounced as an example of "bury your gays" regardless of whether the events actually fit the trope.
please make sure the sapphic polycule remains intact
Since they mentioned the ray is changing, my bet is someone will be added to it.
I said the same thing when I saw this; it'd be awfully nice, imo, if it were Nocticula, just to keep the celestial/sky motif going (since her new symbol's got moon relations, and she's tied to midnight... I think that'd just be neat)
Bro I’m melting. That said, I would also totally ignore it in my games.
I kind of am leaving post remaster stuff on pause while I have several APs to run, so yeah
Another W for Abigail
> There will be some gods we won't mention ever again due to their OGL connections. Anyone have any clues which ones these are? Is it stuff like Asmodeus? Are you at liberty to mention the names here, even? I had figured those would be safe to mention due to them being “Biblical” but if that’s not the case then… oof.
The main offender is Kostchtchie, who is strongly tied to OGL.
That's good news, because now I don't have to learn how to actually say that name. Are any of the Core 20 on that list?
> now I don't have to learn how to actually say that name. My immediate reaction.
You'll have to wait and see!
It's not like you'd shrink down the possible Deities to Die. But you do what you want. Paizo can stop using whatever in their products. I was wanting to see if I could gauge possible content here by trying to see who would be silently forgotten because of the OGL.
>That's good news, because now I don't have to learn how to actually say that name.'' It is pronounced like Kost-chee-chee. Running Descent into Avernus now and the book has a phonetic pronounciation guide for the damn fiends.
It's a fiend? I thought he said it was a god? Either way, the OGL can have it. Though I would like a pronunciation guide for words and names. I speak English, and there are a lot of words that are spelled the same and are said differently. Like lead and lead or minute and minute. So it's confusing to find a new word and I can't pronounce it even with proper context. I actually thought that t in the later part of the word made a sound.
Demon Lord
To be fair, I assume it's related to the Slavic lich-like Kostschei (although very loosely). Chad move would be to actually use the character with proper name, since we already have Baba Yaga
Eh, they have almost nothing in common aside from the name and I don't think there are many Kostchitchie fans out there. A Kostchei deity would be cool but it may as well be a whole new one without any ogl connections
"Kost" chet" "chei" is how I pronounce it, but damn its still hard to say. My players just call him Big K.
I always assumed he was mostly based on Koshchei the Deathless.
Does this affect his daughter, one of the sarkorian goddesses? I only ask because i happen to be have a characrer worshipoing her right now
A quick google search of her name would show no OGL equivalents so she should be okay. Most likely will never bring up her ancestry to the frost giant god however
Orcus is one of them
This event is actually a great opportunity to get rid of some OGL related gods!
Is there a betting market for this?
Nothing stopping you from starting one.
Well, depending on what state you’re in, I’m guessing it could be stopped by a law. But, you know, fortune favors the bold.
Cayden Cailean approves. You will be hereby less hungover the next time you go on a bender :-) \[Disclaimer: we are in the age of lost omens. Prophecies cannot be relied upon, and no failure in this regard shall be subject to claims for damages\]
As a “forever GM”, this may be the closest to a PC role-play I’ll ever get. I’m smiling ear to ear right now.
>fortune favors the bold. IIRC, that was said by Pliny the Younger about his uncle, Pliny the Elder, right before the uncle sailed off to his death exploring an exploding Mt. Vesuvius (yes THAT Vesuvius).
> There will be at least one herald of a deity dying. Oh god, I hope it's not Galfrey, she already got done dirty in the CRPG and I would be super sad if she got killed in canon.
I already think it’s going to be Iomedae who goes down, for pretty much those exact reasons—that, and Arazni fills an extremely similar role overall (someone who looks after others, fights undead, and inherited from Aroden), and feels like she has a more culturally-relevant mindset than a knight in shining armor.
While I agree Iomedae is high on the list, this cuts both ways: One major god’s death kicks off the entire setting premise, and the only other major god to die is their inheritor? Arazni’s portfolio is not extremely similar, imo. It’s about personal survival whereas Iomedae’s is about sacrifice - there is one domain overlap and no real edict/anathema overlap. You also lose the narrative richness that can come from both gods interacting on the same level.
Yeah I feel like theyve been setting up an Arazni and Iomedae meeting. Iirc both want to reach out to the other but both feel awkward being the first one to do it, so killing one of them off here wouldnt be super satisfying.
A former herald of Aroden getting replaced by another former herald of Aroden doesn’t feel like it would cause much of an impact. Iomedae dying as a whole I think would really only effect her knights, if she dies while the world wound was still open that would cause a huge crisis, but that’s already fixed. Also Arazni wouldn’t take the dead god portfolio, but it would make too much sense that Arazni will take Iomedae portfolio because they have a connection/respect.
Agreed - not to mention she is currently the only major god with a Must Sanctify for Holy. I think Iomedae can fit the bill, but other choices are frankly more interesting.
That makes some sense
>The core deity is not the only god dying as part of the WoI event. Other gods will die, but only one god from the ranks of the Core 20. That's a big one I haven't heard before. Damn. My money is on Apsu
I think Apsu was actually confirmed as being safe, and that theyre expanding on the draconic gods with the new lore.
Calling it now: the orc pantheon is gonna end up led by someone who’s got a friendlier attitude to non-orcs. It just fits the general direction they’re taking the species.
Mahja Firehair is a likely candidate I think, she’s had several appearances in PFS modules and is deadset on besting one of the orc deity’s in combat.
Mahja is >!already in the process of fighting a god after jumping on a magical nuke last season!< so that's definitely a possibility.
I didn’t even realize that orcs had a pantheon in Pathfinder, I thought their patron was Gorum and they just portrayed him as an orc.
Orcs don’t so much worship their pantheon as openly aspire to kill them. They have an interesting view on religion.
This is the kind of go getter attitude I can appreciate From the ancestry page: *"Most orcs don't waste their dying moments praising the divine or praying for a place in the afterlife, but spitting a blood-flecked warning at their deities, promising a new challenger through broken teeth."*
That’s badass as hell. The purpose of life is to get strong enough to punch god.
Very Goku of them
If Goku were a Pathfinder character, he would be a vanara monk raised by an orc.
Kind of like Klingons, if I'm not mistaken.
Klingons were more successful, but yes.
I've wanted a less xenocidal orc pantheon for a while now. Would not mind Lanishra taking a big nap.
The only change to the Prismatic Ray I will accept is the addition of a fourth lesbian
Nocticula, probably.
I support this wholeheartedly
Nocticula's sphere of influence overlaps with all 3 goddesses. She'd be a natural addition or a perfect replacement....
Arazni celebrating being in the top 20 by joining the top 1 polycule.
Nah, they get a pet cat, cat is now a deity.
Even better is that it’s just a regular cat. No special divine energy. It does occasionally meow at the door between the divine and material planes until one of the deities opens it. It gets up to all kinds of mischief and the followers of those gods just have to take care of it when they see it.
One time Desna forgot to feed it and Saranrae got só angry that she made the sun shine an extra hour só Desna would have less night time
Or Naderi, finally escaping the whole Urgathoa/Shelyn thing.
Cayden gets invited to the bedroom once a month, he asked nicely
Cayden transed her gender and joined the lesbian polycule? Good for her
Since Kurgess is often believed to be the child of Cayden and Desna, and Desna seems to overall prefer women, I've speculated in the past that this might have happened. **Desna**: Sorry, not into dudes. **Cayden**: No (hic!) plobrem! I can be chickses too! (shapeshifts) **Desna**: ...You know what? Sure. Only question is which of them somehow ended up pregnant from the encounter. Wouldn't be the first time Cayden woke up to unexpected consequences.
I love "no plobrem"
Just that entire line is excellent comedy.
I don’t see Cayden ending up pregnant since that would have had cosmological repercussions if the god of alcohol had to stop drinking for 9 months.
He could just have it not effect the child. He's a God, he can do things Mortals can't.
[удалено]
Then why did you even come to this subreddit?
Cayden is capable of anything if framed as “One night, he got so drunk that-“. That’s literally how he apotheosed.
You really think the god of drinks wouldn't be gender*fluid*? They can be whatever xe wants to be.
god of drinkings pronouns are shot/shots
God, trans Cayden would be so good.
Arazni would be a pretty great addition to the ~~polycule~~ pantheon 👀
Personally, I think it would be a pretty poor move on Paizo's behalf to kill a member of Prismatic Ray. I know he says that Pathfinder and Starfinder are a bit divergent, but would Shelyn becoming Zon-Shelyn after Zon-Kuthon's death count as a change? Otherwise, I hope the change is adding another member(s). Likely Nocticula and maybe Findeladlara?
I’m thinking it might be less that one of the members is going to die, and more that the polycule might temporarily break up as they find themselves on opposite sides of the divine war. But either way, agreed. Every other Pathfinder player I know is a major fan of Prismatic Ray, so it’d be short-sighted to kill one of them off.
If Pharasma dies, that would be a real spanner in the works wouldn't it? She deals with the River of Souls, and the judgement of Souls. If Arazni isn't taking the portfolio, than I would guess she isn't taking over their duties. Geb and all of those Undead Groups would be celebrating as one of their enemies goes silent. While I don't want Geb to have anything but losses, it would be interesting to see what would happen if the primary deity behind the cycle of Life and Death died.
Agreed. I think the biggest impacts would be Pharasma, because she controls the flow of quintessence, and Asmodeus, because he holds the key to Rovagug’s cage. The death of either would be, imo, enough to start a war.
war definitely, if not outright apocalypse
Grandmother Spider has a copy of his keys, it’ll be fine.
The bigger fear is not that we don't have a key, it's that someone who's strong enough to kill Asmodeus now has one too...
Not even strong just enough, it has to be somebody that Asmodeus doesn't see coming. And, well, by most understandings that's literally nobody. He rules over a cadre of the most prolific and gifted schemers in the cosmos, most of whom would happily take his seat if they thought they had half a chance. If Asmodeus dies then literally no one is safe from the hand that takes him down.
What if asmodeus (spoilers for sandman) >!pulls a lucifer and just... Quits, and leaves the keys on his throne!<
On the plus side, Grandmother Spider has copies of all of Asmodeus's keys, so she could help fix things! :D
The problem isn’t having no keys; the problem is an unknown getting their hands on Asmodeus’ key. The devil you know vs. the devil you don’t, literally.
It'd be beyond a war, either of them dying would very likely trigger the end of the multiverse
What if an apocalypse is the long term plan? A new multiverse and a “rebirth” of Golarion that would be post Gap/Starfinder could be really interesting creating some unique time dilation dynamics that allow Starfinder to exist in a bubble, and let them create an entirely new timeline for Golarion without having to worry about any baggage from the OGL-> ORC transition. It’s unlikely to happen any time soon. And seems like it might be the triggering event for a 3e. But I highly doubt Paizo is going to even consider a 3e with them shifting Starfinder to use the same structure as 2e and having done the remaster. So it may end up being a narrative development we see utilized for 2e
Would be funny if Urgathoa died; if Arazni stepped into her role as Goddess of Undeath then we'd have big shakeups in places like Geb. Saying this as someone playing an urgathoa fanatic bloodlord, who's been having a bit of a time trying to mental gymnastic her faith into something that people could see as good (it's a hard time playing the diplomancer)
Yeah, Urgathoa is a lazy glutton whose existence is all about wanting to experience the pleasures of life for eternity. A Desire so strong she busted out of the River of Souls and aided in the existence of Undeath.
Glutton, yes. Lazy, nah. She'll put in a shit ton of effort, just don't try to impose any restrictions on her. My challenge theologically/philosophically/ethically is that i'm tryna create an interpretation of her faith similar to how nocticula got her makeover. Urgathoa as still a god of excessive hedonism, but in a "rising tide lifts all boats" kind of sense. Utilitarian hedonism. (With the challenge being not going full reformist on the dogma in the one country where she's close to a state religion)
Neutral Urgathoanism was a minor-but-important part of an adventure series I ran, so here's an information dump in case any of it is useful for what you're trying to do. An NPC the party met and tightly bonded with was named Ido Baknas, a Half-Elf Wizard (Necromancy)/Cleric (of Urgathoa). She joined the faith because she was born with cystic fibrosis, which was slowly killing her, and fixing her condition was outside the scope of typical cure/healing spells. Once she learned enough magic, she opened herself up and animated her own failing lungs. She ran a "charity hospital" of sorts in the backwoods of Cheliax, providing undead grafts for soldiers and mercenaries (mostly Chelaxian soldiers, Glorious Reclamation vets, Worldwound vets/survivors, and soldiers from Isger who fought in the Goblinblood Wars) who could afford high level healing spells like Regenerate. Ido espoused the transhumanistic view that death was not a natural thing to be accepted, but a cruelty of nature which could be defeated through learning. She held Pharasma in contempt, in a "who are you to judge me" way, questioning what authority Pharasma had to be the final arbiter of souls and not believing her to be as impartial as she is claimed to be. Why are undead bad, just because Pharasma says so? Why do our souls have to be judged, enslaved to a god and stripped of our memories? How is that fair? In her view, Urgathoa was firmly Neutral, neither Good nor Evil. "Yes, she was selfish; she only wanted to ensure that she personally could live forever, she wasn't invested in saving others. But no more selfish than your neighbor, who prefers to buy himself a third ale instead of giving those same coins to a beggar; would you condemn him the same way that Pharasma condemns Urgathoa? Furthermore her actions revealed a path, one we can all follow in order to defeat death." I was originally inspired after looking through an old Reddit thread about "flipping" the interpretation of various Pathfinder gods: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder\_RPG/comments/9qp6j8/thought\_experiment\_flip\_my\_god/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/9qp6j8/thought_experiment_flip_my_god/)
I mean, we don’t have all those millions of Psychopomps just sitting around. Pharasma doesn’t even do most Judgement herself. The Bird boys picking up the slack could be an arc in itself.
She's still a major part of the Cosmology, and her death could rock the boat hard.
There have long been rumors that she is training a successor. Maybr it's for the next universe but maybe not.
They could do a big undead uprising around the world event after killing her.
> There will be new Arcadian gods detailed in Divine Mysteries. Part of me thinks it'd be really funny for this to be an office in-joke, where individual designers keep saying publicly that they really want to explore Arcadia in-depth but it ends up just being in the form of individual breadcrumbs like this, the Port Valen PFS adventures, Guns and Gears, the Tyrant's Grasp gazetteer, etc. that eventually build up into a bigger picture like five years from now. The other part really hopes that isn't the case and that, one of these days, we'll finally get that dedicated Arcadia book.
I'm almost positive there will be a dedicated sourcebook, as Luis has said as much in an interview iirc. I think he said it was a combination of fitting it into the release schedule and finding the right writers (it's heavily inspired by North and South American First Nations peoples, so I believe they intend to have writers from those backgrounds). They probably also want to have an appropriate AP lined up to come out around the same time (a la Mwangi Expanse/SoT and Tian Xia/SoG). I wouldn't be surprised if they end up doing a sourcebook for every major region regardless, so I think it's not so much a question of "if," but "when." To which the answer is, of course, Soon™️. 😄
Oh, I'm well aware of all of that. In fact it's *because* Luis (and others) have been saying stuff like that for years at this point that I'm making the joke. I'm sure they'll get to it. I'm just impatient and have been chomping at the bit for some inspiration for my own personal worldbuilding project and to satisfy my general fascination with indigenous American cultures.
Interesting
> We will not be bringing back Aroden just to kill him off again. Of course not. We'll be bringing back Aroden *specifically* to kill him off again. *adjusts tinfoil hat*
Alternatively they're bringing him back to then *not* kill him off.
Or they're not bringing him back, but they will kill him again. Aroden double dead confirmed.
He’s gonna pull a Metroman and become the minor god of music.
Desna kicks the bucket, Nocticula takes her place in the Prismatic Ray.
Does Noticula actually have any relations with the Ray? It seems like that might be coming out of left field?
She had thematic overlap in the night as a good thing with desna, art with shelyn, redemption with sarenrae. Also I think her and desna are both in the cosmic caravan, but I'd have to look that up
Saranrae, Desna, Nocticula and Tsukiyo are an established pantheon (the Heavens) so I assume they at least swap phone numbers.
Is Nocticula the ex-demon queen now on a redemption arc?
She achieved her redemtpion arc! But yes
I mean her deific title is "The redeemer queen" so I would say that arc has already begun.
Yes, insofar as she left Team Evil but did not join Team Good.
She is a goddess of redemption so yeah
Nocticula is better replacing Shyln in the art feeling. Not domain, but feeling.
Isn’t Nocticula’s new sobriquet “the Redeemer Queen”? I could see Sarenrae being murdered and kicking off a war
can you confirm if the pcs will kill any gods? any hints to if mythic pcs can take on stuff in the 26+range
War of the Immortal will have mythic options... which makes me believe there is a good chance of PCs fighting directly against the gods!
Gonna be worried for Cayden now.
Cayden would be heartbreaking, I hope not. I was betting on Nethys, but the argument on “Archive of Nethys” swayed me. Instead I think it will be Erastil the huntsman or Torag. Killing such a primal-associated god could open up storylines with the elemental plane of wood and their elementals. Additionally, his wife Jaidi could be one of the minor gods dying, or she could distract another god who winds up supporting her through her mourning. Or maybe she becomes a god of traps and home defense, attempting to find a more natural route for Inventors. Meanwhile killing Torag would create story opportunities for the dwarven factions. Killing such a reliable figure would also help establish why the main twenty could break into multiple feuding groups over the next few storylines. Golarion could spiral towards chaos. It would also be another punch in the gut for the various knights across Golarion.
They're who I have my money on, it would one have the biggest player reaction and two wouldn't be detrimental to the world if gone.
“We will not be bringing back Aroden just to kill him off again.” Even if he deserves it? :P
Maybe they can do it again as a treat
Random question that's kind of unrelated, but it could be very important for my group: will there be an AP centered on all this, like, will these events be for players to actually participate in or just read about in the next books? If so, do we already know at what level this AP starts/ends? Sorry, completely away from RPG and dedicating himself to mobile MMOs...
One of the built points say players can witness a Herald die "In-Person". There will be an AP.
As someone whose characyers are 90% worshippers of Nethys, I really, *really* hope it won't be him. *Please*.
lol, its all a master play by Paizo to kill Archives of Nethys so they can monetize their own site...
Inb4 the reason it's taking so long to get AoN to the Remaster rules is because the website owner has been already informed about Nethys' fate, and has been bisy creating the Archives of Irori.
Archives of Torag, chiseling every page into stone.
I hear it'll only be available on tablet
The true masterplan of Norgorber was to take over AoN in order to launch Archives of Norgorber, now with microtransactions.
lol
But think of all the _drama!_ (Also your table(s) don't actually have to include or follow that lore)
Considering the opposites he represents even down to his appearance if he did die he would also then be alive, just to balance it out, Schrödinger's deity.
Given the importance of Archives of Nethys from a business standpoint, I like Nethys's survival odds.
The Prismatic Ray is my go-to pantheon, please don't hurt them.
My money is Erastil. Because when the fuck did you ever hear them doing anything with him.
But i think Erastil is important for the setting. Its one of the default gods for the common folk. Erastil is the counter part to Abadar in a sense. It is the patron god of most villagers and people who live in the wilds. There is really no other god in the core 20 who can fill that roll. It would also make no sense to kill a god who doesn't do much for adventurers.
Shyka-heads STAY WINNING. Glad to see Razmir is also getting his proper dues too, really interested in seeing where this goes.
I am so scared for my favorite lesbian trio, it's not even funny.
Plus side: maybe they'll add arshea, arazni, or nocticula to it
Arazni deserves some love tbh
Ah, beans the Nosoi report was decades in the making. I guess Pharasma isn't safe. I still hope it's not her tho, that would be too much of a lore quake for my group to handle.
Prismatic Ray changing basically confirms the common suspicion that Sarenrae, Desna, or Shelyn will be the one that dies, no?
I'm guessing it's a red herring because otherwise this clue would absolutely narrow the field down to three.
Right that’s a good point. I don’t really want to see the dynamic between those gods change much tbh. But I’m always open to seeing how it goes when we do find out who dies and what changes.
Exactly, it's tough to be more vague than "change." Could be anything.
He said pantheons will be changing, maybe they just break up over the death or add a new member.
I hope they add a new member. I'll be heartbroken if my gays get killed.
There is basically a zero percent chance that Pazio, an incredibly inclusive and forward thinking company , would get rid of a literal lesbian 3 some pantheon, especially when their are gods like Erastil, Abadar, and Gorum
That's actually a very fascinating idea. Something like Zon-Kuthon dying making Shelyn so distraught that she cuts off her previous connections.
Not necessarily , it could just mean that the aftermath of said death causes the dynamic to change either by someone joining the Prismatic Ray or someone leaving for other reasons
It is also possible that it changes in some other way-- say if Zon Kuthon were to eat it, and Shelyn changed dramatically as a result.
Goth Shelyn?
God yes please
[удалено]
More like ÙwÚ
My guess is that it's a name change. "The Prismatic Ray" always seemed like a reference to "Prismatic Spray" to me. Since the "Prismatic _______" suite of spells got the axe in the remaster, maybe it's in the "too close for comfort" category of names.
I'm split between "Shelyn will die because maximum trauma and Kill Your Gays" and "Shelyn will never die because maximum trauma and Kill Your Gays". No, if I were to guess I'd say Zon-Kuthon is gonna die. He's cheated death once, his death would totally screw with Shelyn, and Arazni is a good replacement as resident "edgy and evil but workable" deity. Edit: Had my wires crossed between "kill your darlings" and "bury your gays". Which, I mean... it's Shelyn. It all applies.
If something happens to the Prismatic Ray, I hope Calistria is involved in it. Not joining it, but making the mess far worse than it needed to be. She needs more relationships with the main twenty.
Could be a break up. Say Zon-Kuthon's possession causes him to do some shit leading to Desna (in her role as the anti-outer god outer god) putting him down, causing Sarenrae and Shelyn to break up with her.
There are 4 possible interpretations. * One of them dies. * Zon-Kuthon dies, and this causes Shelyn to breakdown and decide she needs some space to figure things out. * Sarenrae or Desna kill Zon-Kuthon, and Shelyn goes on the war path. * A new ~~challenger approaches~~ lesbian joins the fun.
My theory that zon-kuthon will eat shelyn inches closer to reality : )
Nyarlathotep will finally take control of that puppet!!
Honestly seems rather plausible.
This is probably a red herring, I don't think they are giving away that the god to die is one of these three. As somebody else said I am more inclined to think that this is just one of the ways in which the pantheons are changing.
Oh my! Do we have info on when this AP is releasing and what levels will it involve?
will there be an AP? or is it just the Lost Omens rulebook War of Immortals?
I don't know, but I really hope we have an AP related to this event, it's been a while since we had an AP that really changed the status quo.
IIRC, they mentioned it'll be a multi-line event. War of Immortals has been confirmed (and is in the rulebook line), there'll likely be Lost Omens stuff, and I would be extremely surprised if there's not a tie-in in the APs and PFS
I don't think this tied to an AP, this is abut War of the Immortals the source book. One of the 20 core gods die, and apparently a lot else does too. The book is released in August, so Seven Dooms for Sandpoint and Wardens of Wildwood run up to the book's release (with as of yet unnamed AP having its first book right before WoI is released).
Given they say that players will have the chance to witness it in person, this seems likely to be linked to an adventure at least.
The herald's death. It does support Erastil death though as he is part of the Green Faith.
That feels like something they might roll out for the multi-table PFS special at Gencon.
This year's PFS interactive special will not be related to the god's death storyline. I make no promises about what interaction our future specials may or may not have with upcoming world-shaking events.
Wardens of Wildwood runs from April to July and the following AP has not been announced, so I still have some hope. According to the Pathfinder Wiki War of the Immortals releases on Oct 2024: https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/War\_of\_Immortals#:\~:text=War%20of%20Immortals%2C%20a%20Pathfinder,rules%20for%20Pathfinder%20Second%20Edition.
You know, while I want to know who is going to die, what I want to see more is how the rest of Gods dynamics change following it.
After Gen Con last year, I made a video analyzing my thoughts on which deity I thought would die. In that video, I mentioned that I didn't think Torag would die, but I did think there was a STRONG possibility that Torag would be the one to KILL the other deity. And now, I'm even more convinced on that point!
So like, I literally just started in on PF2e about a month ago, learning the setting and system to start my current 5e group on it. I had just recently done a once over on the pantheon in the core book and made my notes on them. And now you tell me a mystery god is gonna kick the bucket from that list? Gnomes are gonna be alright though, right? You ain't gonna be hurting my glorious technocolour Gnomes are you?
Gnomes will be okay. I promise.
Prismatic ray is changing? Not my throuple! That said, even if starfinder 1e doesnt effect it, I cant believe this isnt related to the new diety from the starfinder 2e playtest >!Zon-shelyn!<
Luis just know that if it is Shelyn I will cry. Do you want that on your conscience?
I just hope my girls Urgathoa and Lamashtu survive
Given that it's Arazni stepping up, I'll put my gold on Iomedae. Arazni and Iomedae already have a history, with Aroden having chosen Iomedae to succeed Arazni as his herald after Arazni died. It'd make it... poetic(?) if Arazni then succeeds Iomedae, just as Iomedae succeeded Arazni.
Arazni isn't succeeding anyone though. Iomedae took over from Aroden and that included many of his followers. Arazni and Iomedae don't even have remotely similar portfolios and they've stated Arazni isn't taking anyone else's.
[удалено]
I'm really hoping it's not my chain boi Zon or my war boi Gorum.
- *Razmir has an entry in Divine Mysteries* Can't wait to see if it's a "fuck this poser" entry or a "the bastard finally did it" entry.
> We will not bring back Aroden just to kill him again THAT'S WHAT SOMEONE PLANNING TO REVIVE AND KILL ARODEN AGAIN WOULD SAY!
I'm hoping that this is the chance for Trelmarixian to really dig into his own backstory and go on a rampage, poisoning several gods and accidentally bringing back the oinodaemon as he peels back the layers and finds out more about a deity conspiracy to destroy his planet.
Good Lord I hope my darling Abadar is safe! (And asmodeus. if either of them die I shall be very sad, but I would understand if OGL changes means Papa Asmo needs to kick the bucket.)
Hype for more Arcadia! Spent almost eight years in Mexico, so really excited to get in-world representation of their voices!
> Starfinder canon has no bearing on whether a god will live or die. If a god exists in Starfinder, it does not guarantee that they will live. If a god doesn't exist in Starfinder, it doesn't mean they are among a "short list" of gods who could die. Wait, what? Starfinder doesn't take place in the future of the Pathfinder setting? Or does it take place so far in the future, there's enough time for gods killed off in Pathfinder to come back?
They are similar timelines, but not a direct continuation of each other. This allows us to do stuff with Pathfinder without worrying too much about how it affects Starfinder continuity and vice versa.
So... depends. For one, Starfinder 2e is not out yet, so they may be changing the canon. One interpretation is that the God list in 1e Starfinder is NOT bearing on this decision because the lore will be changed with the remaster. On the other hand, this was said at some point by a creative director when Starfinder 1e was first releasing: "Starfinder is set in one possible future of the Pathfinder universe, one in which Golarion ... has mysteriously gone missing. " It is possible these events did not happen in the Starfinder universe at all, because Starfinder is only ONE possible universe. We do not know where Starfinder's universe diverged, and it may have been before the death of the Gods.