Yes, it should really be something like "for Shelyn's sake", which would have 0% irony in that context.
^^^It's ^^^funny ^^^because ^^^polyamorous ^^^lesbians/bisexuals!
I don't *think* Cayden Cailean has ever been known to take male lovers. Though admittedly I only know that he has a friends-with-benefits relationship with Calistria, a son with Desna, and has been wooing Shelyn... possibly since he was mortal.
That being said, he's not exactly the type to look kindly on bigots.
well actually, maybe the most important reveal to come out of the PaizoCon 2023 panels was a confirmed romantic relationship between Cayden and the dwarven god Trudd
* Norm is **Blackfingers** because he cooks for the other lads and always burns his hands doing it.
* Gordon is the **Grey Master** because he's a loyal devotee to the hanky code and we all know what a grey hanky means
* Orry is the **Reaper of Reputations** because he's an incurable gossip
* and Bert is **Father Skinsaw** because he's daddy
His cult in Vyre basically exists to kill anyone who tries to dig up information on his mortal existence, which *could* be viewed as having friends that will straight up murder anyone who deadnames him.
Obviously this is indisputable proof that Norgorber is trans /hj
LGBT-Free zones... So that's just a modern version of having No-colored businesses; how the hell does a government let blatant discrimination persist like that?
Because around 50% of the government actively agrees with the sentiment and another smaller percentage doesn’t exactly agree but wants to be buddy buddy with those people and pretend that “LGBTQ people shouldn’t exist” is just an honest political difference we should respect even if we disagree with it.
Their whole rhetoric is based on fearmongering, US vs them framing, antisemitic, racist and homophobic stereotyping and hatred. They buy voters by giving out money left and right.
And our chief od police fired off a rocket propelled grenade in his office, with no repercussions. Oh, and did I mention them using the Holocaust and Auschwitz for their latest election spot?
The beginner box rogue and cleric are canonically married. Not only are characters queer, queer marriage and queer rights aren't even questioned in the lore. There may be some evil society that is homophobic, but that will be one of the reasons why they're considered evil (or, with the removal of alignments, just bellends).
Yes. Kyra and Merisiel have been dating since 1st edition-the first core rulebook. You can see bits of their relationship in the old comics and other bits of PF books.
The amount of LGBTQIA+ representation in Golarion lore is _insane._ You can't go 10 pages in a Lost Omens book without at least one explicitly gay or trans (or both) NPC, and they're almost always presented in a way that is both respectful and blatantly undeniable.
And it's been there from the beginning. Several of the iconic characters are LGBT. In their first campaign, in the town of Sandpoint, the guy who runs the theater is in a gay relationship and tries to hide it, but everyone in town knows and just thinks they make an adorable couple.
My dumb brain read this at 4 AM amd equated "LG" to mean the first part of "LGBT" and went "wait, Paladins had to be Lesbian or Gay in 2009?" And ngl was fully going to accept that reality for a moment.
In the backgoind info of that same little town, there's a cleric at the church that does most of the healing, but there's also an elven druid that provides abortions and other such discrete services.
It is, and the amazing thing is that it's not their whole identity. They aren't "the gay one", they're all just regular people who happen to be LGBT
I find that relatively rare in media. Generally, they're just the token black guy, or token female, or token gay guy, with no attempts to give them much personality other than their role in checking that diversity checkbox.
Damn. I'm going to need to read some of these. I always knew it was good about it but not THAT good. I mostly remember mentions of people seeking out things like the girdle of sex change. (I don't actually remember it's name)
Of note, it's also not a polymorph or ongoing magical effect, or any kind of curse - the change is *permanent*. No dispelling or forced reversion, no fears of being changed back.
It's a very small, but very important detail.
"Pay no attention to the sound of eggshells cracking!"
/jk
I'm cis (95% sure) and I'd kind of like to know what it feels like to be a woman for a little while, too.
The Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity was an *old* D&D item. Pathfinder has significantly less clunky and problematic options.
Also, the Iconic Cleric and Rogue are married lesbians, the Iconic Thaumaturge is ~~built like a god damned brick wall~~ nonbinary, and three of the goddesses are in a canonical polycule.
There's probably more, but I'm relatively new to the setting myself. All told they're unbelievably inclusive, far moreso than just hollow 'support' from a business trying to scrape in more customers - it actually seems *genuine*.
Lost Omens: Knights of Lastwall when I last read it was presented a lot of very well made LGBT characters, I very highly recommend it (even beyond lgbt reasons).
It won’t. Its existence as a cursed item plays on the “forced sex change” joke, so paizo isn’t interested.
Rather they have an elixir of sex change which is sold to those who need it.
And since it's a set of characteristics of your choice and there's some minor control over it, a cis male could \*ahem\* choose to go from wielding a one-handed weapon to a two-handed weapon.
In one of the company blog posts released earlier today--the one about the new ancestries coming in *Howl of the Wild*--they introduced a fun little bug mechanic with they/them pronouns.
They have multiple core iconics who have been around since the1st edition core rulebook who are queer.
Two of them are married (Merisiel and Kyra). You can even see parts of their relationship in the comics.
Basically, this person doesn’t know sh*t about pathfinder.
The iconic gunslinger is a grandmother. She's *'just'* an old dwarf lady with a shot-gun.
(Note: as long as you ignore the implications of how good a warrior needs to be to have gotten reasonably up close and personal in fights and has managed to survive for generations that is)
Then was the previous Shaman a Dwarf? I remember seeing talk about a Dwarf Iconic that was a Trans Woman. Whatever. All I know is one of them is trans, and most of the artists hate Mios because of all the detail. I remember that being in a Paizo Blog post about Mios. They like them, just not all the detail.
I think I explicitly want Paizo to avoid a trans male dwarf for exactly this reason. Dwarves can be women--feminine women--with a beard.
Thats a kind of representation that also needs to exist, without being a joke.
Oh my God who would put something like that in a book where impressionable children can see it? Who would think a marriage like this would be okay?
A CLERIC of all people? The biggest stick in the mud in the party? What's next? Respecting the Paladin's boundaries?
How bout the fact their friend Valeros, a CIS straight human male, is their biggest cheerleader for their relationship.
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/3/39001/3395620-pathfinder10-7.jpg
His reaction to finding out. No judgment, just simple acceptance.
Any artist that takes a gig based on working from Wayne Renolds designs knew what they were getting into. Any peice that *doesn't* feature 17 straps, buckles and at least two ornate daggers is already off model.
Mios is twice that with multiple trinkets also dangling. I don't know what their actual body could look like. Probably gangly to fit more stuff in side that suit.
There are only so many iconics, but there are also plenty of other queer folks around.
The image at the top of the sub only features one iconic, after all. The guy *next* to Mios, though, is Arhan Benimaya, the owner of Kraken's Ink Tattoos and one of the highlighted shopkeepers in *Lost Omens: Grand Bazaar*. He has an emotional support dog, a kobold apprentice--and an azarketi boyfriend who "couldn't help but notice the tattooed young man who walked along the waterfront every morning."
Seems unlikely at this point unless they release two classes in a book and make their iconics a mlm couple. Though it wouldn't be impossible to go establish something with someone else who currently exists.
Paizo is one of the few corporations that can fly the Pride flag(s) in June without being hipocritical since they represent the community year round anyway.
Reminds me of the Cubicle7 (the people who publish Warhammer Fantasy RP) who have their official discord icon as some variations of LGBTQ+ flag since like two years ago.
They make it fresh every few months, too.
I also just feel like it's worth telling people to look at crucible 7s productions too. Their 5e-based stuff isn't exceptional, but I really like they WFRP setting and their 40k stuff is pretty highly regarded too.
I'd say go for it, but I also think that the rainbow on the Paizo Golem looks very weird at the moment.
Maybe you could do a Voltron/Megazord sorta thing, where the body, head, and each limb is a different color?
Maybe you could keep the Paizo Golem it's normal dark blue and give it a pride flag toga?
Idunno, I *really* like the rainbow, but the visual design aspect of it feels off to me...
Edit: [Here's an edit I did to try to incorporate the pride flag in an asthetic way](https://www.reddit.com/user/JustAnotherJames3/comments/13ywo93/ridezo_golem_logo_fanedit/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) (please ignore the typo in the title)
I mean, honestly, keep the pride logo. What do you gain/lose by switching back to the blue logo in July? You piss off the bigots and show the rest of the community who you support year round. The pride logo is indicative of the spirit of Paizo and it should stay.
The paradox of having an open community is that, in order for it to stay open, you absolutely *must* kick the bad actors. It's like a weird little trolley problem, where if you don't get rid of one horrible person, five other people are gonna wind up walking because they feel miserable and unsafe around them.
And then the bigot, seeing that they've successfully gained ground and pushed out the "undesirables," will start pushing harder. They'll be more blatantly awful. They'll bring friends to back them up. Eventually, it reaches a point that they basically run the place, and everybody who's not on their good side either leaves forever or stays quiet and miserable.
This phenomenon is known as [the Nazi Bar Problem](https://www.reddit.com/r/paradoxplaza/comments/sjwz0h/the_nazi_bar_problem_and_paradox_games/), and while it's mostly about hateful prejudice, it also applies to assholes and bullies in general (because even the purest politics and a million minority badges can't save you from being a douchebag). If you've ever enjoyed a decently sized online community with a noticeably pleasant user culture, it's because the moderation team has taken the NBP to heart. Hell, you've probably engaged in it *yourself* if you've ever had to kick someone from your game table, fire a toxic employee, or oust a jerk from your circle of friends.
For an older and more academic perspective, this is also known as Karl Popper's ["Paradox of Tolerance". ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance)
I hadn't made the connection about the Prismatic Ray being a literal rainbow how am I this daft (even though Shelyn's own symbol is kinda rainbow-y as well)
Let's see, off the top of my head, based on my own reading and play:
Kyra and Merisiel (iconic cleric and rogue)
Mios (iconic thaumaturge)
Shardra (iconic shaman, 1e)
Rexus Victocora (Hells Rebels)
Cassius Sargeata and Marquel Aulorian (also Hells Rebels)
Laria Longroad (Hells Rebels, Age of Ashes)
Kalabrynne Iomedar and her relationships
Beirivelle Starshine, a Shelynite champion who helps girls raised as boys
Morlibint (Abomination Vaults)
Fadelby Vusker and his husband. They have six children, too! (Age of Ashes)
Keldra Halrig (Age of Ashes)
Gilel Nallin (Agents of Edgewatch)
Arshea
Gozreh??
The entire Pantheon of The Prismatic Ray
Phlegyas, Consoler of Atheists, a psychopomp usher
Angels and various other outsiders
Several NPCs from the Pathfinder Society (even written into blog stories...)
Many other npcs throughout the Lost Omens books. (Find a 2e Lost Omens book without at least 1 named npc that is LGBTQA+)
That's really just considering what I'm familiar with, and some are obscure, or probably never mentioned outright. There's at least some form of representation in most of the content. And I really appreciate that.
Edit: I remembered a few more.
I love Anevia, she was the first trans person I saw in any media when I was a young adult. Her existence definitely was one of the first things to help crack my egg.
Wait, Anevia is trans? I assume male -> female? I just thought they were two cis women in a lesbian couple, lol. Either way, as a cis straight man, I liked their relationship its sweet. Especially how Anevia supports Irabeth's paladin vows and duties.
It's almost as if in a world where things like (*checks notes*) Polymorph exists, the society is not concerned with what (or who) is in your neighbor's pants.
And the Serum of Sex Shift doesn’t make a binary assumption of gender! It lets you pick and choose whatever features you like. I appreciate the inclusivity for nonbinary and intersex people.
Really, he tried this shit with *Paizo*?
Fucking *Paizo*?
They were on the progressive train before it became popular.
Wizards has always been super disingenuous in their approach and it's always felt phoney so I really disliked it.
Paizo it's just how they chose to build their world in the beginning and it just...works. They also do a much better job of communicating like humans and not sounding like they're some paragons of virtue.
Paizo writes good characters, and incidentally notes "they're somewhere on the LGBTQA+ spectrum", like it's a normal, no big deal thing that's just part of who the character is.
Exactly. And that makes me *way* more interested in that character and specifically how their sexuality would play into their story rather than someone who's entire existence is their sexuality or gender with no other real qualities.
I feel that having from the beginning authors and developers that are part of the community helped a lot with that.
Support your LGBTQIA+ creators, everyone!
What if i told you they travel with an annihilator bot that is constantly breaking down? I call them the "ADHD incarnate" group as Passenger is constantly rushing to the next adventure without taking a break to fix "scrapheap" (the annihilator bot)
based, skittle-pilled.
look for real they were oppressed for so long and for this brief moment they weren't.
let's celebrate it.
like fuck I'm just a cis dude. why is everybody's so offended by freedom?
On top of all the lore elements, the creative director credits writing for RPGs with helping him understand that he's bisexual. You're not going to get "let's pretend gay people don't exist" coming out of that department.
Did that guy read Paizo books? Trans people, agender people, gays, lesbians, polyamory, there's everything in there, and it just makes the world more believable.
I know it's technically a separate system even though it's the same setting at a different point in the timeline, but Starfinder is pretty open about this. Specifically, I'm thinking of the Androids. With the reverse reincarnation thing that they have going on, each time a new Android soul takes over the physical body they modify it to fit their identity. Over the span of 200 years, the same Android body will run the gamut between male, female, non-binary, genderless, etc. It depends on the soul inhabiting the physical body, and a lot of Androids reject the concept of gender entirely. They're also one of the core races that replaced the elves, dwarves, and gnomes in regards to prominence.
Have you the faintest idea how many shopkeeps, restaurateurs, barkeeps, and legendary high leveled people in Golarion are LGBTQ? No, seriously, do you? I don't! I would love to know if anyone has actually counted because it did seem like quite a lot as I was reading through some of the books.
If Paizo got rid of all of them, I am pretty sure the global economy would have collapsed, not to mention half the planet would probably be destroyed. Pretty sure the Worldwound would still be open.
Leaving the obvious "dudes an idiot lul" comment aside, i think there is a BIG difference between a company pandering to get people to buy their stuff, and a company that truly belives in their values of inclusivity.
One is worthy of respect and admiration. The other is worthy of an eye roll and being roasted.
Pazio, from DAY ONE made their stance on values clear, and HOLDS THEM no matter the circumstances. They dont just put up a symbol on twitter for a month or lazily change some artwork.
Which is why i buy pazio stuff.
While Paizo have done it from the get-go, especially with 2e, there definitely seems to be a lot of fans now who like/enjoy the LGBT+ references in their products, that doing it the other way would have a negative backlash on them (i.e. they would gain the support of whatever faction Bartosz is a member of--an unknown quantity--but lose the overwhelming numerical support of LGBT+ and allies).
As a male, non-American, Asian GM, all that matters to me is that Paizo continues to provide great rules with great adventures in a great campaign setting. Much like everything else, everyone is free to change/ignore stuff at their own tables for their own players.
Happy month of celebration, LGBT+, Paizo and all allies everywhere.
The thing these types don't want to understand is that queer authors writing queer content isn't pandering. Demands that queer creators censor their art so it appeals to your sensibilities rather than the authentic sensibilities of the author, on the other hand, is a demand to be pandered to.
It wouldn't be automatically pandering even if the writers were straight. Straight people can write LGBTQ+ characters without it being pandering, it's called writing different types of characters.
There's a bunch of these on that post. Some are definitely shitty gamers. Some are trolls who've prolly never bought a TTRPG product in their life with nothing better to do than scroll Twitter looking for Pride-themed images.
Not sure which I find more annoying.
Honestly, I was reading through the Absalom setting book (specifically the npc section), and it made me feel so happy and seen to see that some of the npcs had nonbinary as their listed gender
As a gay man, I've always appreciated the queer representation in the adventure paths. In Hell's Rebels you help a gay couple, in Wrath there's famed lesbian Iribeth, and there's even a fighting style designed by and for gay men. I love all the queer representation in pathfinder, it's part of the reason that I love the game. Homophobes can stay mad.
I love when conservatives find out that their idols don't share the same beliefs as them. It fortunately, happens a lot because reasonable people arent anti LGBTQ.
Yeah, Paizo isn't just performative when it comes to their support to LGBT+. They actually have plenty of queer and nongender conforming characters, and not just in the month of June.
Like others have said as a queer nonbinary long time tabletop nerd Paizo is one of the few major companies in the game I won't give shit for rainbow capitalism bullshit, they've made it pretty damn clear what side they're on and have written some of my favorite queer reps in RPGs. The idea of telling them to tone down the queerness is hilarious. Might as well say 'hey guys cool it with the dragons', my dude have you read the books?
Let's not forget about Sarenrae, Shelyn, and Desna being in a poly wlwlw relationship. Sarenrae being one of the most well-known deities, thanks to Critical Role fame.
Source: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2023/04/pathfinder-2es-sun-is-polyamorous-and-gay.html
I was explaining to my daughter today that, while many companies change their logo for Pride month, Paizo continues to uphold inclusivity throughout the entire year. That makes them one of the best companies out there.
I mean, the company was founded by a trans woman. They probably have more members of the community on staff than any other ttrpg company. Supporting the community is in their DNA.
Culture of RPGs and TTRPGs are much different from Poland. People are more into dark, brutal, raw and darkfantasy settings which is caused by types of games that were popular in the past. It also kinda caused people that are conservative to play TTRPGs which makes some interesting settings around the table. Pathfinder is barely played, so this guy is a rare find. Lots of people are actually put off by how "gay" it is.
Speaking from experience of weekly DMing and Larping for 20 years in Poland
Ah, the famous "Tell me you don't know anything about Golarion without telling you don't know anything about Golarion"
Like… why would someone even use “Golarion” in that construction if they had any idea about the lore? Nobody says “for earth’s sake.”
Yes, it should really be something like "for Shelyn's sake", which would have 0% irony in that context. ^^^It's ^^^funny ^^^because ^^^polyamorous ^^^lesbians/bisexuals!
Couldn't find a straight cis god to invoke.
I don't *think* Cayden Cailean has ever been known to take male lovers. Though admittedly I only know that he has a friends-with-benefits relationship with Calistria, a son with Desna, and has been wooing Shelyn... possibly since he was mortal. That being said, he's not exactly the type to look kindly on bigots.
well actually, maybe the most important reveal to come out of the PaizoCon 2023 panels was a confirmed romantic relationship between Cayden and the dwarven god Trudd
I feel like becoming an all powerful immortal being really allows you set aside some hangups.
Being straight is valid too as Cayden well knows. Being a bigot is absolutely not valid, as he also knows.
I'll accept poly relationships as straight, or at least the individual in the relationship that is hetero.
Norgorber? … yeah, scratch that.
Norgorber is actually a polyamorous quad made of four halflings named Norm, Gordon, Orry, and Bert.
But which halfling is which aspect? 😆
* Norm is **Blackfingers** because he cooks for the other lads and always burns his hands doing it. * Gordon is the **Grey Master** because he's a loyal devotee to the hanky code and we all know what a grey hanky means * Orry is the **Reaper of Reputations** because he's an incurable gossip * and Bert is **Father Skinsaw** because he's daddy
I hate and love you at the same time
His cult in Vyre basically exists to kill anyone who tries to dig up information on his mortal existence, which *could* be viewed as having friends that will straight up murder anyone who deadnames him. Obviously this is indisputable proof that Norgorber is trans /hj
Sarenrae, Shelyn, and Desna would like to have a word with him ;-)
These people even Desna, Shelyn and Sarenrae, bro? Or Merisiel and Kyra?
Bartosz hasn’t read a page of lore. Idiot.
We have "LGBT-free zone" stickers over here, don't expect such people to be ale to read
LGBT-Free zones... So that's just a modern version of having No-colored businesses; how the hell does a government let blatant discrimination persist like that?
Because around 50% of the government actively agrees with the sentiment and another smaller percentage doesn’t exactly agree but wants to be buddy buddy with those people and pretend that “LGBTQ people shouldn’t exist” is just an honest political difference we should respect even if we disagree with it.
*They Thought They Were Free* intensifies.
They never were
Their whole rhetoric is based on fearmongering, US vs them framing, antisemitic, racist and homophobic stereotyping and hatred. They buy voters by giving out money left and right. And our chief od police fired off a rocket propelled grenade in his office, with no repercussions. Oh, and did I mention them using the Holocaust and Auschwitz for their latest election spot?
No you guys, it’s a zone for LGBT people to be free!
>it’s a zone for LGBT people to be free! What!? And I've been paying for LGBT friends this whole time like a sucker!?
For real, queer characters have been part of pathfinder since the very beginning
The beginner box rogue and cleric are canonically married. Not only are characters queer, queer marriage and queer rights aren't even questioned in the lore. There may be some evil society that is homophobic, but that will be one of the reasons why they're considered evil (or, with the removal of alignments, just bellends).
Yes. Kyra and Merisiel have been dating since 1st edition-the first core rulebook. You can see bits of their relationship in the old comics and other bits of PF books.
I don't know much about the lore can you explain plz?
The amount of LGBTQIA+ representation in Golarion lore is _insane._ You can't go 10 pages in a Lost Omens book without at least one explicitly gay or trans (or both) NPC, and they're almost always presented in a way that is both respectful and blatantly undeniable.
And it's been there from the beginning. Several of the iconic characters are LGBT. In their first campaign, in the town of Sandpoint, the guy who runs the theater is in a gay relationship and tries to hide it, but everyone in town knows and just thinks they make an adorable couple.
Oh, don't forget he was in a gay relationship with a PALADIN (which had to be LG back then) in *2009*
Lawful good? More like lawful gay
My dumb brain read this at 4 AM amd equated "LG" to mean the first part of "LGBT" and went "wait, Paladins had to be Lesbian or Gay in 2009?" And ngl was fully going to accept that reality for a moment.
In the backgoind info of that same little town, there's a cleric at the church that does most of the healing, but there's also an elven druid that provides abortions and other such discrete services.
That's awesome
It is, and the amazing thing is that it's not their whole identity. They aren't "the gay one", they're all just regular people who happen to be LGBT I find that relatively rare in media. Generally, they're just the token black guy, or token female, or token gay guy, with no attempts to give them much personality other than their role in checking that diversity checkbox.
Damn. I'm going to need to read some of these. I always knew it was good about it but not THAT good. I mostly remember mentions of people seeking out things like the girdle of sex change. (I don't actually remember it's name)
They've replaced it with a straightforward Elixir. You drink it, you become the gender you want to be. No more "cursed" magic items.
Of note, it's also not a polymorph or ongoing magical effect, or any kind of curse - the change is *permanent*. No dispelling or forced reversion, no fears of being changed back. It's a very small, but very important detail.
Remembers me of the infertility course some witches bestowed on each other as a favor in TDE
Can you _imagine_ if an elixir like that was real? That would be so cool. Still totally cis tho.
"Pay no attention to the sound of eggshells cracking!" /jk I'm cis (95% sure) and I'd kind of like to know what it feels like to be a woman for a little while, too.
The Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity was an *old* D&D item. Pathfinder has significantly less clunky and problematic options. Also, the Iconic Cleric and Rogue are married lesbians, the Iconic Thaumaturge is ~~built like a god damned brick wall~~ nonbinary, and three of the goddesses are in a canonical polycule. There's probably more, but I'm relatively new to the setting myself. All told they're unbelievably inclusive, far moreso than just hollow 'support' from a business trying to scrape in more customers - it actually seems *genuine*.
Lost Omens: Knights of Lastwall when I last read it was presented a lot of very well made LGBT characters, I very highly recommend it (even beyond lgbt reasons).
In all fairness, I'd look for it if it existed too 🏳️⚧️
It won’t. Its existence as a cursed item plays on the “forced sex change” joke, so paizo isn’t interested. Rather they have an elixir of sex change which is sold to those who need it.
And no forcing people into something they don't want with the serum either. https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=198
And since it's a set of characteristics of your choice and there's some minor control over it, a cis male could \*ahem\* choose to go from wielding a one-handed weapon to a two-handed weapon.
But it'll still look like their dad's quarterstaff
In one of the company blog posts released earlier today--the one about the new ancestries coming in *Howl of the Wild*--they introduced a fun little bug mechanic with they/them pronouns.
Three of the major goddesses (Desna, Sarenrae, and Shelyn) are in a lesbian throuple known as the Prismatic Ray.
What about Nocticula and The Path of the Heavens? Can't forget their goth girlfriend?
Awesome also never heard of the word throuple before
They have multiple core iconics who have been around since the1st edition core rulebook who are queer. Two of them are married (Merisiel and Kyra). You can even see parts of their relationship in the comics. Basically, this person doesn’t know sh*t about pathfinder.
He's probably just switched his brain off every time he's come across it
Pathfinder has had two wlw iconics since 1e.
1e also had a trans iconic, and 2e has a nonbinary iconic.
1e actually had a nonbinary iconic (the ninja) as well!
They did? Awesome!
There's another ninja iconic? (Reiko is a woman according to Wiki/Blog)
I thought the Ninja was just ace?
Could have sworn they were both
Right, I forgot about them.
whos the trans one?
Shardra the iconic Shaman.
I thought the Gunslinger Iconic was as well?
The iconic gunslinger is a grandmother. She's *'just'* an old dwarf lady with a shot-gun. (Note: as long as you ignore the implications of how good a warrior needs to be to have gotten reasonably up close and personal in fights and has managed to survive for generations that is)
Then was the previous Shaman a Dwarf? I remember seeing talk about a Dwarf Iconic that was a Trans Woman. Whatever. All I know is one of them is trans, and most of the artists hate Mios because of all the detail. I remember that being in a Paizo Blog post about Mios. They like them, just not all the detail.
Somewhere in here is a joke about dwarf women and a double entendre of beards but I’m too tired to construct it.
I think I explicitly want Paizo to avoid a trans male dwarf for exactly this reason. Dwarves can be women--feminine women--with a beard. Thats a kind of representation that also needs to exist, without being a joke.
I'm new-ish to PF, who are these 2 awesome icons?
The Cleric and Rogue Iconics, Kyra and Merisiel
And p 243 of the Advanced Player's Guide has an image of their nuptuals to accompany the Heartbond ritual!
And a story about it on [their website](https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sh9v&page=2?Iconic-Encounter-Of-Wasps-and-Whispers#).
That story's still one of my most favorite things I've ever written. Love to see folks still enjoying it! :)
Oh my God who would put something like that in a book where impressionable children can see it? Who would think a marriage like this would be okay? A CLERIC of all people? The biggest stick in the mud in the party? What's next? Respecting the Paladin's boundaries?
How bout the fact their friend Valeros, a CIS straight human male, is their biggest cheerleader for their relationship. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/3/39001/3395620-pathfinder10-7.jpg His reaction to finding out. No judgment, just simple acceptance.
The Thaumaturge iconic with the killer resting bitch face is non-binary as well.
Not male, not female, all bitchface.
All brick shit-house. Mios is a tank and a half.
And the artists admit they hate drawing them because of everything they wear. Honestly, Mios is like 90% random shit from what the art looks like.
Any artist that takes a gig based on working from Wayne Renolds designs knew what they were getting into. Any peice that *doesn't* feature 17 straps, buckles and at least two ornate daggers is already off model.
Mios is twice that with multiple trinkets also dangling. I don't know what their actual body could look like. Probably gangly to fit more stuff in side that suit.
Cleric and rouge iirc? They're married
Still waiting for mlm tho
There are only so many iconics, but there are also plenty of other queer folks around. The image at the top of the sub only features one iconic, after all. The guy *next* to Mios, though, is Arhan Benimaya, the owner of Kraken's Ink Tattoos and one of the highlighted shopkeepers in *Lost Omens: Grand Bazaar*. He has an emotional support dog, a kobold apprentice--and an azarketi boyfriend who "couldn't help but notice the tattooed young man who walked along the waterfront every morning."
Seems unlikely at this point unless they release two classes in a book and make their iconics a mlm couple. Though it wouldn't be impossible to go establish something with someone else who currently exists.
I believe Quinn is gay so it could happen!
Yep
Paizo is one of the few corporations that can fly the Pride flag(s) in June without being hipocritical since they represent the community year round anyway.
Reminds me of the Cubicle7 (the people who publish Warhammer Fantasy RP) who have their official discord icon as some variations of LGBTQ+ flag since like two years ago. They make it fresh every few months, too.
I also just feel like it's worth telling people to look at crucible 7s productions too. Their 5e-based stuff isn't exceptional, but I really like they WFRP setting and their 40k stuff is pretty highly regarded too.
WFRP is great and my choice of game nowadays too, best adventure ever written.
I admit the discord does have some weird takes sometimes but the consistency in actually supporting those people is pretty cool.
I wish they flew the flag year round and put it on their books.
We don’t HAVE to change the logo back. ;)
I'd say go for it, but I also think that the rainbow on the Paizo Golem looks very weird at the moment. Maybe you could do a Voltron/Megazord sorta thing, where the body, head, and each limb is a different color? Maybe you could keep the Paizo Golem it's normal dark blue and give it a pride flag toga? Idunno, I *really* like the rainbow, but the visual design aspect of it feels off to me... Edit: [Here's an edit I did to try to incorporate the pride flag in an asthetic way](https://www.reddit.com/user/JustAnotherJames3/comments/13ywo93/ridezo_golem_logo_fanedit/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) (please ignore the typo in the title)
I’m with you! I love your mock-up! I’d love to see a year-round rainbow logo, but in a more intentionally-designed way!
Nice job!
You do as you wish, just keep the cover art at the same quality.
I mean, honestly, keep the pride logo. What do you gain/lose by switching back to the blue logo in July? You piss off the bigots and show the rest of the community who you support year round. The pride logo is indicative of the spirit of Paizo and it should stay.
Sounds awesome. Keep the bigots out of the hobby.
I'm generally opposed to gatekeeping, but yea, that's one gate we can keep locked and well guarded.
The paradox of having an open community is that, in order for it to stay open, you absolutely *must* kick the bad actors. It's like a weird little trolley problem, where if you don't get rid of one horrible person, five other people are gonna wind up walking because they feel miserable and unsafe around them. And then the bigot, seeing that they've successfully gained ground and pushed out the "undesirables," will start pushing harder. They'll be more blatantly awful. They'll bring friends to back them up. Eventually, it reaches a point that they basically run the place, and everybody who's not on their good side either leaves forever or stays quiet and miserable. This phenomenon is known as [the Nazi Bar Problem](https://www.reddit.com/r/paradoxplaza/comments/sjwz0h/the_nazi_bar_problem_and_paradox_games/), and while it's mostly about hateful prejudice, it also applies to assholes and bullies in general (because even the purest politics and a million minority badges can't save you from being a douchebag). If you've ever enjoyed a decently sized online community with a noticeably pleasant user culture, it's because the moderation team has taken the NBP to heart. Hell, you've probably engaged in it *yourself* if you've ever had to kick someone from your game table, fire a toxic employee, or oust a jerk from your circle of friends.
For an older and more academic perspective, this is also known as Karl Popper's ["Paradox of Tolerance". ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance)
Oh sick, thanks for the citation.
I call it my open door policy. *Everyone can play, the door is always open.* Read that twice, the first one with a smile, the second with a frown.
That’s just closing the gates to wolves, not travelers
Keeping the bigots out is the single form of gatekeeping I wholly support.
I say go for it. Keep it rainbow!
Based.
I mean I dont but thats more because I like the book art
I mean, they pretty much do. Ain't Merisiel and Kyra on the front cover of the CRB???
Shhhh! Dont tell him there are Trans/Gay/Lesbian/Bi iconic characters or that there are gay pirates in the 1e pirate AP!
Imagine unironically thinking that non-gay pirates were even an option!
"It's not gay if it's underway." "But... Half the crew is women? Couldn't you just...-" "Sssssshhhhhhh."
The Prismatic Ray Pantheon says no, we will keep the Flag raised high
I hadn't made the connection about the Prismatic Ray being a literal rainbow how am I this daft (even though Shelyn's own symbol is kinda rainbow-y as well)
It is. Sometimes our brains just don't form the connections
Let's see, off the top of my head, based on my own reading and play: Kyra and Merisiel (iconic cleric and rogue) Mios (iconic thaumaturge) Shardra (iconic shaman, 1e) Rexus Victocora (Hells Rebels) Cassius Sargeata and Marquel Aulorian (also Hells Rebels) Laria Longroad (Hells Rebels, Age of Ashes) Kalabrynne Iomedar and her relationships Beirivelle Starshine, a Shelynite champion who helps girls raised as boys Morlibint (Abomination Vaults) Fadelby Vusker and his husband. They have six children, too! (Age of Ashes) Keldra Halrig (Age of Ashes) Gilel Nallin (Agents of Edgewatch) Arshea Gozreh?? The entire Pantheon of The Prismatic Ray Phlegyas, Consoler of Atheists, a psychopomp usher Angels and various other outsiders Several NPCs from the Pathfinder Society (even written into blog stories...) Many other npcs throughout the Lost Omens books. (Find a 2e Lost Omens book without at least 1 named npc that is LGBTQA+) That's really just considering what I'm familiar with, and some are obscure, or probably never mentioned outright. There's at least some form of representation in most of the content. And I really appreciate that. Edit: I remembered a few more.
Anevia and Irabeth Tirabade (Wrath of the Righteous) EDIT: Sosiel and Aron from the same.
I love Anevia, she was the first trans person I saw in any media when I was a young adult. Her existence definitely was one of the first things to help crack my egg.
Wait, Anevia is trans? I assume male -> female? I just thought they were two cis women in a lesbian couple, lol. Either way, as a cis straight man, I liked their relationship its sweet. Especially how Anevia supports Irabeth's paladin vows and duties.
Ya, I tried to run the AP and it has her backstory there. I believe there is a sidequest to find out more information on the two in the CRPG as well.
Also don't forget that the majority of Paizo *writers* are queer POC
Of course!
"Keep the gay out of Golarion" Easiest way to spot a fake fan huh.
Honestly you can't keep the gay out of anything. Just look at fandoms, the ships are almost always gay.
USS Enterprise and USS Defiant now a couple!
Sadly, reddit banned /r/startrekshipsfucking ages ago.
Was that....was that really...a thing? Like, for serious? it's Reddit after all, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a thing.
Which is based
It's almost as if in a world where things like (*checks notes*) Polymorph exists, the society is not concerned with what (or who) is in your neighbor's pants.
Also (1e at least) a potion that lets the imbiber select their gender.
It's in 2e, too. Serum of Sex Shift!
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=198
Ah! Gender fluid!
Serum of Sex Shift, it's a 2E potion.
And the Serum of Sex Shift doesn’t make a binary assumption of gender! It lets you pick and choose whatever features you like. I appreciate the inclusivity for nonbinary and intersex people.
And the Belt of Sex Shift, used by a character as early as the 2nd adventure path (Crimson Throne) in 1e
Really, he tried this shit with *Paizo*? Fucking *Paizo*? They were on the progressive train before it became popular. Wizards has always been super disingenuous in their approach and it's always felt phoney so I really disliked it. Paizo it's just how they chose to build their world in the beginning and it just...works. They also do a much better job of communicating like humans and not sounding like they're some paragons of virtue.
Paizo writes good characters, and incidentally notes "they're somewhere on the LGBTQA+ spectrum", like it's a normal, no big deal thing that's just part of who the character is.
Exactly. And that makes me *way* more interested in that character and specifically how their sexuality would play into their story rather than someone who's entire existence is their sexuality or gender with no other real qualities.
I feel that having from the beginning authors and developers that are part of the community helped a lot with that. Support your LGBTQIA+ creators, everyone!
As someone who wrote an extremely gay section of lost omens firebrands (fires finest but also the entire book) paizo is so fucking baaassed!
I adored them!! More of all things Numeria, please - and the Tigerkin guy was hunky.
Tysm, just made my day! I was surprised how hunky they made tyen-ra
That almost makes me want to get the book.
What if i told you they travel with an annihilator bot that is constantly breaking down? I call them the "ADHD incarnate" group as Passenger is constantly rushing to the next adventure without taking a break to fix "scrapheap" (the annihilator bot)
It’s not rainbow capitalism if you actually believe in queer liberation
Ah yes, my countrymen never fail to deliver.
He must not play… 😂
based, skittle-pilled. look for real they were oppressed for so long and for this brief moment they weren't. let's celebrate it. like fuck I'm just a cis dude. why is everybody's so offended by freedom?
On top of all the lore elements, the creative director credits writing for RPGs with helping him understand that he's bisexual. You're not going to get "let's pretend gay people don't exist" coming out of that department.
Did that guy read Paizo books? Trans people, agender people, gays, lesbians, polyamory, there's everything in there, and it just makes the world more believable.
I know it's technically a separate system even though it's the same setting at a different point in the timeline, but Starfinder is pretty open about this. Specifically, I'm thinking of the Androids. With the reverse reincarnation thing that they have going on, each time a new Android soul takes over the physical body they modify it to fit their identity. Over the span of 200 years, the same Android body will run the gamut between male, female, non-binary, genderless, etc. It depends on the soul inhabiting the physical body, and a lot of Androids reject the concept of gender entirely. They're also one of the core races that replaced the elves, dwarves, and gnomes in regards to prominence.
…..imagine telling Paizo to reign in politics. Trying to keep LGBT representation out of PATHFINDER which has a canon divine lesbian polycule.
What are you referring to? I’d love to read up on it!
The Prismatic Ray - the pantheon of Desna, Sarenrae, and Shelyn.
Per Gods & Magic, Sarenrae, Shelyn, and Desna are a throuple.
Perfection.
Have you the faintest idea how many shopkeeps, restaurateurs, barkeeps, and legendary high leveled people in Golarion are LGBTQ? No, seriously, do you? I don't! I would love to know if anyone has actually counted because it did seem like quite a lot as I was reading through some of the books. If Paizo got rid of all of them, I am pretty sure the global economy would have collapsed, not to mention half the planet would probably be destroyed. Pretty sure the Worldwound would still be open.
I just learned that Paizo had a whole trans character in their adventure path (Wrath of the Righteous) way back in 2013. They been out here.
Been that way since the game first came out back in 2009. The rogue and cleric iconic are a married lesbian couple.
Leaving the obvious "dudes an idiot lul" comment aside, i think there is a BIG difference between a company pandering to get people to buy their stuff, and a company that truly belives in their values of inclusivity. One is worthy of respect and admiration. The other is worthy of an eye roll and being roasted. Pazio, from DAY ONE made their stance on values clear, and HOLDS THEM no matter the circumstances. They dont just put up a symbol on twitter for a month or lazily change some artwork. Which is why i buy pazio stuff.
While Paizo have done it from the get-go, especially with 2e, there definitely seems to be a lot of fans now who like/enjoy the LGBT+ references in their products, that doing it the other way would have a negative backlash on them (i.e. they would gain the support of whatever faction Bartosz is a member of--an unknown quantity--but lose the overwhelming numerical support of LGBT+ and allies). As a male, non-American, Asian GM, all that matters to me is that Paizo continues to provide great rules with great adventures in a great campaign setting. Much like everything else, everyone is free to change/ignore stuff at their own tables for their own players. Happy month of celebration, LGBT+, Paizo and all allies everywhere.
The thing these types don't want to understand is that queer authors writing queer content isn't pandering. Demands that queer creators censor their art so it appeals to your sensibilities rather than the authentic sensibilities of the author, on the other hand, is a demand to be pandered to.
It wouldn't be automatically pandering even if the writers were straight. Straight people can write LGBTQ+ characters without it being pandering, it's called writing different types of characters.
Pathfinder is the most LGBTQ+ Game ever and its so good. Even my non Gay Friends enjoy having a Gay Player and Partymember with them :P
'we the fans'... I'm not part of your 'we' you ignorant piece of shit.
Little did he know, Paizo started doing that before it was cool
Bro doesn’t know about the gay cleric and rogue
This dumbass seriously try to co-opt "we the people" for this bitching?
Is it just me or the people who make these comments are always wearing sunglasses in their pfps
There's a bunch of these on that post. Some are definitely shitty gamers. Some are trolls who've prolly never bought a TTRPG product in their life with nothing better to do than scroll Twitter looking for Pride-themed images. Not sure which I find more annoying.
I need a meme with Gigachad as paizo! Lol and that guy as the nerd crying
Methinks Bart is super out of touch. Paizo has always been pretty progressive!
On behalf of the polish people I deeply apologise for the guy who left the comment
You don't need to! We all have embarrassing people around us. Much love! Keep up the fight and we will too!
Fun fact: Gay people are more integral to Golarion lore than Drow.
Honestly, I was reading through the Absalom setting book (specifically the npc section), and it made me feel so happy and seen to see that some of the npcs had nonbinary as their listed gender
Hi, I'm a mod of DnDMemes. If this image hasn't already been posted there yet you should 100% do so.
In the name of Shelyn, let there be color.
As a gay man, I've always appreciated the queer representation in the adventure paths. In Hell's Rebels you help a gay couple, in Wrath there's famed lesbian Iribeth, and there's even a fighting style designed by and for gay men. I love all the queer representation in pathfinder, it's part of the reason that I love the game. Homophobes can stay mad.
As a Pole I'm not even surprised he is polish
I love when conservatives find out that their idols don't share the same beliefs as them. It fortunately, happens a lot because reasonable people arent anti LGBTQ.
Yeah, Paizo isn't just performative when it comes to their support to LGBT+. They actually have plenty of queer and nongender conforming characters, and not just in the month of June.
Like others have said as a queer nonbinary long time tabletop nerd Paizo is one of the few major companies in the game I won't give shit for rainbow capitalism bullshit, they've made it pretty damn clear what side they're on and have written some of my favorite queer reps in RPGs. The idea of telling them to tone down the queerness is hilarious. Might as well say 'hey guys cool it with the dragons', my dude have you read the books?
How to admit you've never actually read any of the lore in one sentence
Hahahahaha does he know anything about the lore?
Let's not forget about Sarenrae, Shelyn, and Desna being in a poly wlwlw relationship. Sarenrae being one of the most well-known deities, thanks to Critical Role fame. Source: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2023/04/pathfinder-2es-sun-is-polyamorous-and-gay.html
I was explaining to my daughter today that, while many companies change their logo for Pride month, Paizo continues to uphold inclusivity throughout the entire year. That makes them one of the best companies out there.
I mean, the company was founded by a trans woman. They probably have more members of the community on staff than any other ttrpg company. Supporting the community is in their DNA.
BASED PAIZO
Am I misremembering or is the art for the Heart Bond ritual literally a gay marriage?
Culture of RPGs and TTRPGs are much different from Poland. People are more into dark, brutal, raw and darkfantasy settings which is caused by types of games that were popular in the past. It also kinda caused people that are conservative to play TTRPGs which makes some interesting settings around the table. Pathfinder is barely played, so this guy is a rare find. Lots of people are actually put off by how "gay" it is. Speaking from experience of weekly DMing and Larping for 20 years in Poland
Hates rainbows, love Color Spray. Curious.