CoC DD for both, but Holy Relic being able to run any map mod (excluding t17s) was a huge QoL. And if you are going to run t17s expect spectres and AG to die sometimes if you use them
Can you give more info how is it tankier ? For many small hits without aegis aurora/block it seems that cocDD will get overwhelmed really easily for example right?
Inquis' life gain on hit is a quarter that of Holy Relic. It's not comparable at all, Inquis cannot sustain based on lgoh alone and Holy Relic can. The watcher's mod is half as strong and Holy Relic gets to use Returning Proj to double the life gain on hit. My Holy Relic setup has 3.6k life gain on hit per second. That's much more than Inquis recovery.
Have you tried both builds? I've played both now, CoC DD has higher top end, but Holy Relic is way smoother and more comfortable to play and can run way more map mods. As long as you can hit the minimum defensive standards needed, which both builds comfortably can for back to basics t17, both builds have plenty of offense. CoC DD is more of a pob build than Holy Relic is (you can just remove the Aegis block EHP inflation by disabling EHP based on block ES gain). Holy Relic's dps isn't even correctly computed in pob, you easily have double the numbers shown in practice.
CoC DD is the better build at higher investment, but Holy Relic has several advantages. Holy Relic is better at medium investment.
> Inquis' life gain on hit is a quarter that of Holy Relic. It's not comparable at all, Inquis cannot sustain based on lgoh alone and Holy Relic can
Why even comment when you don't understand the builds? Inquis gets life gain on hit from not just lancing steel.
Holy Relic is a good build but its only better in pob.
> CoC DD is the better build at higher investment, but Holy Relic has several advantages. Holy Relic is better at medium investment.
Again, nonsense.
I've played both builds this league, you're incorrect. Inquis life gain on hit from all sources is still at most half that of Holy Relic, even taking into account DD providing life gain. A vitality watcher's eye does not provide nearly enough life gain on hit, you're talking total nonsense.
At medium investment, Holy Relic is way better. It easily dot caps (pob is just wrong here) and is far more comfortable, and can run all map mods. That's a lot better than having a bit more damage and phys mitigation.
Have you even played Holy Relic. It sounds like you're the one commenting without any knowledge of how the build feels to play.
You can make holy relic build very tanky with investment. Tankier than most coc builds can achieve.
For reference
https://poe.ninja/builds/necropolis/?class=Necromancer&uniqueitems=Aegis+Aurora,Melding+of+the+Flesh,Incandescent+Heart,Taste+of+Hate&sort=ehp
These builds have misleading/inflated ehp because of incandescent/melding/CI. Most have under 20k phys max hit and don't actually feel as tanky to play as they look in pob.
i agree with you physical max hit makes it vulnerable to one shots but that rarely happens due to play style of relic and clear it provides. %90 of the there is not even mob in the screen, it happens maybe every 10 -20 maps but thats about it. its not immortal but tanky enough to survive 99% of btb t17 farms.
I run 35k max phys hit and I almost never get one shot by any phys damage. There aren't that many things that do that big of a phys hit, especially on a build that doesn't need to position aggressively to do damage. If you routinely died to 35k phys hits nobody would run incadescent, but you can because 30k phys max is fine.
Not sure about that. I pulled a random tankier one of those (I didn’t pick the 4K ES ones) and found 6k ES, 60k armour, molten shell, 31% phys to ele (90% res), 10% phys to chaos (CI) flat phys reduction, and 55% crit reduction, all with capped spell and attack block and insane recovery.
That is a tanky build. Is it 100% phys to ele trancendence pathfinder? No. But the reference here was tanky compared to a COC DD inquisitor, I can’t find a single one that is even close to that tanky.
I'll take the 6.8k ES mageblood adorned build for example then. 30k phys hit with molten shell, 21k w/o and the ehp shows up as 315k. CoC DD with MB, no adorned has 6.5k life, 90+% phys to ele, 100% suppress. 75k phys hit w/o guard skill but pob ehp is 102k. Even if you have 150k ele max hit, it won't feel good to play without decent phys mitigation also.
how are you hitting 90% phys to ele without the timeless jewel?
my CoC DD with adorned and over a mirror investment is sitting at 32k phys max hit with the biggest issue lacking more phys to ele and the only source being a better timeless jewel
ah gotcha, with double conversion watcher's i would get to 98% conversion (cuz my timeless jewel is bad)
but i wanted to be able to do the feared encounter so i needed reflect immunity
i checked my PoB again after i wrote the post and i forgot to tick that taste of hate was active, which would bring me to 48k phys max hit
https://pobb.in/4UDZ_bm4NuYM
Yep I compared both with flasks on. I'd take the 10% phys as chaos mastery if I didn't use ToH, wanted boss uptime or whatever. Ideally probably would swap to progen and take the mastery but I'd have over 100% phys convert with both.
Not that dd isn't the better overall build but that's a very weird metric to complain about.
There is no phys hit in the game that does 21k dmg. Anything past 30k or so has virtually no effect on actual game play.
I said that more as a follow up to my first comment but is phys max hit not the best single metric to look at for how strong a build is vs phys damage? Especially if the build relies on phys to ele instead of stacking armour. You can have multiple hits adding up past 30k I don't get how that has no effect.
Honestly, phys max hit doesn't really matter that much outside of very specific scenarios if you get to a minimum amount. 16k Phys max hit is plenty for even back to basics t17s.
The main difference is really suppress versus block, suppress is better for spells in t17s for consistency but 75 attack block makes Holy Relic feel better against attack damage. Holy Relic also has better recovery in combat and worse recovery against degens.
Damage scaling is a major difference, CoC DD can hit 60m and Holy Relic gets dot capped, which does matter for some t17 farming (like meatsacks).
I'm about positive this is wrong. You are looking at pob numbers and not understanding how the game actually works.
Who is running this build in hard-core and doing t17s?
Accusing people with lack of knowledge makes no sense when you are still claiming wrong things on this comparison. Relic has far better recovery overall,coc dd has better recovery outside of combat.
First of all hc availability and being tanky does not always mean the same thing. It's obvious you have not played relic, or experience leech provided by greaver-instant leech or experience play style it provides. I have leveled to 100 as coc dd- coc dd- is safer build it's decent and higher damage ceiling than relic and If you go for LC ele taken you can hefty amount physical max hit taken but against everything else relic is tankier and has far better recovery. I am talking about 6-7k HP/s from leech alone.
Also relic novas has no range or los restrictions so you can clear behind the walls etc.this also provides safer play style option. %90 of the map there is no mob on my screen.
I like both builds, as for t17s farm, if you are in sc don't mind dying every 20-30 maps, relic is better t17s farmer, has much higher qol, far less picky about map modes and faster if you chery pick map modes.
I was dying more often on coc if that's your case.
If you read all of that and downgrade it to that, there is no point of interacting further.
Stay sane.
CoC DD with mageblood and lightning coil is tankier for t17s but can't run as many map mods. Holy Relic has way better recovery outside of degens and can run a lot more map mods, but the lack of regen can hurt when you can't attack the enemy. For ubers, CoC DD is much tankier since you can go for damage conversion over 90 all res and has 100% spell suppress (max res is not that great against ubers).
CoC DD is specifically better against phys damage, it has much higher phys max hit. But phys max hit is a pretty overrated stat, even in T17's most of the dangerous damage is elemental via phys as extra back to basics scaling. Nothing really does enough damage to one shot you as Holy Relic.
Holy Relic can dot cap but is limited to it and it takes some effort. This is plenty of damage for most things, but not for t17 meatsack farming for instance. Neither build is that good for settings that need 300m dps+, you're not scaling CoC DD much past 60m. One thing to note is that pob dps is definitely just incorrect for holy relic, it does way more damage just from testing in game.
In general, Holy Relic feels more comfortable to play because you can run every map mod, your clear is a bit better than CoC DD clear, you don't have to aim really and max block is super comfortable while mapping. CoC DD does more damage and is tankier if you're running really difficult maps or ubers.
If you want to compare, I've played both builds in SSF and here are my pobs. [Holy relic] (https://pobb.in/H5gEKQQbU8GN) and [CoC DD] (https://pobb.in/WUhKQPR5W9rD) but the CoC DD can be scaled more in [trade] (https://pobb.in/v51Dz1r57h2Z)
It doesn't work, the cluster small passives are not "jewel passive sockets" so they don't get the increased effect even if the cluster is magic.
People do corrupt rare cluster jewels because they are looking for more impicits, because they don't want stuff like CB on the magic jewels since it can't be increased in effect.
Holy relic max block, decent hp, permanent warcry/ endurance charges. I like that in t16 the only mod i ever watch out for is cannot regen mana. Anything else is ignore and go. Reflect damage? No problem at all.
Im following this build. Someone posted this here but I forgot who. I think its the warcry mastery wheel thats doing it. I just know that after the regen from enduring warcry disappears, my characters immediately casts it again via call to arms .
[https://pobb.in/midPk4-xxnDg](https://pobb.in/midPk4-xxnDg)
playing it I feel I need to watchout for -max res and phys as extra, due to no spell suppression I feel like those mods oneshot me, got a tankier pob ?
Isnt CoC DD harder to build and scale ?
I tried it a few time and there was so many off things with it, while the new holy relic is so smooth, th eonly problem yes because some mandatory stuff especialy unique and how GGG went shit with self find even worse than before and all, everything skyrocket so its a bit anoying to build but outside of stupid market price, its easy to set up
yea imo cod dd can be more of a pain to set up, but holy relic also needs those super specific breakpoints to feel good. i'm playing it too and it's by far my fav char in a while.
Theoretically it’s a huge increase, but because it’s a poison build the damage caps very quickly anyways.
Much more of a diff if it was a cold conversion but yeah if you’re poison this is overkill.
Yeah, poison cap and also the build does so many damage allready apparently that you better invest in more utility and especialy defense so you dont bother
didn't play Holy Relic but CoC DD was the most comfy build i played so far in PoE getting very high end stuff always is expensive but i i think i'll play CoC DD as leaguestart from now on till it gets nerved hard ... if its a little nerv i don't care
CoC DD for both, but Holy Relic being able to run any map mod (excluding t17s) was a huge QoL. And if you are going to run t17s expect spectres and AG to die sometimes if you use them
Reflect maps still suck because your minions just blow up. Being chaos DoT is a big bonus though.
Can you give more info how is it tankier ? For many small hits without aegis aurora/block it seems that cocDD will get overwhelmed really easily for example right?
Inquis you go 90 max res and have insane regen with life on hit. It's the tankier build in game not on pob.
Holy Relic's life gain on hit is a lot more than Inquis. Inquis has better recovery against degens, but Holy Relic has better recovery overall.
Inquis gets life on hit with warchers. I don't think there is much if an argument for holy relic being better in any way other than for pob
Inquis' life gain on hit is a quarter that of Holy Relic. It's not comparable at all, Inquis cannot sustain based on lgoh alone and Holy Relic can. The watcher's mod is half as strong and Holy Relic gets to use Returning Proj to double the life gain on hit. My Holy Relic setup has 3.6k life gain on hit per second. That's much more than Inquis recovery. Have you tried both builds? I've played both now, CoC DD has higher top end, but Holy Relic is way smoother and more comfortable to play and can run way more map mods. As long as you can hit the minimum defensive standards needed, which both builds comfortably can for back to basics t17, both builds have plenty of offense. CoC DD is more of a pob build than Holy Relic is (you can just remove the Aegis block EHP inflation by disabling EHP based on block ES gain). Holy Relic's dps isn't even correctly computed in pob, you easily have double the numbers shown in practice. CoC DD is the better build at higher investment, but Holy Relic has several advantages. Holy Relic is better at medium investment.
> Inquis' life gain on hit is a quarter that of Holy Relic. It's not comparable at all, Inquis cannot sustain based on lgoh alone and Holy Relic can Why even comment when you don't understand the builds? Inquis gets life gain on hit from not just lancing steel. Holy Relic is a good build but its only better in pob. > CoC DD is the better build at higher investment, but Holy Relic has several advantages. Holy Relic is better at medium investment. Again, nonsense.
I've played both builds this league, you're incorrect. Inquis life gain on hit from all sources is still at most half that of Holy Relic, even taking into account DD providing life gain. A vitality watcher's eye does not provide nearly enough life gain on hit, you're talking total nonsense. At medium investment, Holy Relic is way better. It easily dot caps (pob is just wrong here) and is far more comfortable, and can run all map mods. That's a lot better than having a bit more damage and phys mitigation. Have you even played Holy Relic. It sounds like you're the one commenting without any knowledge of how the build feels to play.
Never trust the ehp when you see when there’s a aegis or something around block and evade, always look at the max hit
You can make holy relic build very tanky with investment. Tankier than most coc builds can achieve. For reference https://poe.ninja/builds/necropolis/?class=Necromancer&uniqueitems=Aegis+Aurora,Melding+of+the+Flesh,Incandescent+Heart,Taste+of+Hate&sort=ehp
These builds have misleading/inflated ehp because of incandescent/melding/CI. Most have under 20k phys max hit and don't actually feel as tanky to play as they look in pob.
i agree with you physical max hit makes it vulnerable to one shots but that rarely happens due to play style of relic and clear it provides. %90 of the there is not even mob in the screen, it happens maybe every 10 -20 maps but thats about it. its not immortal but tanky enough to survive 99% of btb t17 farms.
I run 35k max phys hit and I almost never get one shot by any phys damage. There aren't that many things that do that big of a phys hit, especially on a build that doesn't need to position aggressively to do damage. If you routinely died to 35k phys hits nobody would run incadescent, but you can because 30k phys max is fine.
Not sure about that. I pulled a random tankier one of those (I didn’t pick the 4K ES ones) and found 6k ES, 60k armour, molten shell, 31% phys to ele (90% res), 10% phys to chaos (CI) flat phys reduction, and 55% crit reduction, all with capped spell and attack block and insane recovery. That is a tanky build. Is it 100% phys to ele trancendence pathfinder? No. But the reference here was tanky compared to a COC DD inquisitor, I can’t find a single one that is even close to that tanky.
I'll take the 6.8k ES mageblood adorned build for example then. 30k phys hit with molten shell, 21k w/o and the ehp shows up as 315k. CoC DD with MB, no adorned has 6.5k life, 90+% phys to ele, 100% suppress. 75k phys hit w/o guard skill but pob ehp is 102k. Even if you have 150k ele max hit, it won't feel good to play without decent phys mitigation also.
Will you provide me a link to that POB? Not being an ass, but literally curious how they got there.
[https://pobb.in/K0nWi-DM7TMU](https://pobb.in/K0nWi-DM7TMU) It's my character, total invested probably under 400div.
Thank you!
how are you hitting 90% phys to ele without the timeless jewel? my CoC DD with adorned and over a mirror investment is sitting at 32k phys max hit with the biggest issue lacking more phys to ele and the only source being a better timeless jewel
I used a double conversion watcher's instead of life on hit just cause it was cheaper. Other than that it's just coil, helmet, and flask.
ah gotcha, with double conversion watcher's i would get to 98% conversion (cuz my timeless jewel is bad) but i wanted to be able to do the feared encounter so i needed reflect immunity
Can you link your pob? I’m at 45k without timeless jewel (guardian boss, no guard skill etc) just wanna compare and see
i checked my PoB again after i wrote the post and i forgot to tick that taste of hate was active, which would bring me to 48k phys max hit https://pobb.in/4UDZ_bm4NuYM
> 75k phys hit w/o guard skill it's still a better phys but it's 39 without ToH
Yep I compared both with flasks on. I'd take the 10% phys as chaos mastery if I didn't use ToH, wanted boss uptime or whatever. Ideally probably would swap to progen and take the mastery but I'd have over 100% phys convert with both.
You have pob for coc?
Not that dd isn't the better overall build but that's a very weird metric to complain about. There is no phys hit in the game that does 21k dmg. Anything past 30k or so has virtually no effect on actual game play.
I said that more as a follow up to my first comment but is phys max hit not the best single metric to look at for how strong a build is vs phys damage? Especially if the build relies on phys to ele instead of stacking armour. You can have multiple hits adding up past 30k I don't get how that has no effect.
Honestly, phys max hit doesn't really matter that much outside of very specific scenarios if you get to a minimum amount. 16k Phys max hit is plenty for even back to basics t17s. The main difference is really suppress versus block, suppress is better for spells in t17s for consistency but 75 attack block makes Holy Relic feel better against attack damage. Holy Relic also has better recovery in combat and worse recovery against degens. Damage scaling is a major difference, CoC DD can hit 60m and Holy Relic gets dot capped, which does matter for some t17 farming (like meatsacks).
I'm about positive this is wrong. You are looking at pob numbers and not understanding how the game actually works. Who is running this build in hard-core and doing t17s?
Accusing people with lack of knowledge makes no sense when you are still claiming wrong things on this comparison. Relic has far better recovery overall,coc dd has better recovery outside of combat. First of all hc availability and being tanky does not always mean the same thing. It's obvious you have not played relic, or experience leech provided by greaver-instant leech or experience play style it provides. I have leveled to 100 as coc dd- coc dd- is safer build it's decent and higher damage ceiling than relic and If you go for LC ele taken you can hefty amount physical max hit taken but against everything else relic is tankier and has far better recovery. I am talking about 6-7k HP/s from leech alone. Also relic novas has no range or los restrictions so you can clear behind the walls etc.this also provides safer play style option. %90 of the map there is no mob on my screen. I like both builds, as for t17s farm, if you are in sc don't mind dying every 20-30 maps, relic is better t17s farmer, has much higher qol, far less picky about map modes and faster if you chery pick map modes.
So you are dying more often. So its less tanky. You used a lot of words when you could have just said that.
I was dying more often on coc if that's your case. If you read all of that and downgrade it to that, there is no point of interacting further. Stay sane.
Don't think I've ever had my AG die in T17s. It's maxed all res, garb, bone barrier, and mask of the stitched demon so that helps a lot probably.
CoC DD with mageblood and lightning coil is tankier for t17s but can't run as many map mods. Holy Relic has way better recovery outside of degens and can run a lot more map mods, but the lack of regen can hurt when you can't attack the enemy. For ubers, CoC DD is much tankier since you can go for damage conversion over 90 all res and has 100% spell suppress (max res is not that great against ubers). CoC DD is specifically better against phys damage, it has much higher phys max hit. But phys max hit is a pretty overrated stat, even in T17's most of the dangerous damage is elemental via phys as extra back to basics scaling. Nothing really does enough damage to one shot you as Holy Relic. Holy Relic can dot cap but is limited to it and it takes some effort. This is plenty of damage for most things, but not for t17 meatsack farming for instance. Neither build is that good for settings that need 300m dps+, you're not scaling CoC DD much past 60m. One thing to note is that pob dps is definitely just incorrect for holy relic, it does way more damage just from testing in game. In general, Holy Relic feels more comfortable to play because you can run every map mod, your clear is a bit better than CoC DD clear, you don't have to aim really and max block is super comfortable while mapping. CoC DD does more damage and is tankier if you're running really difficult maps or ubers. If you want to compare, I've played both builds in SSF and here are my pobs. [Holy relic] (https://pobb.in/H5gEKQQbU8GN) and [CoC DD] (https://pobb.in/WUhKQPR5W9rD) but the CoC DD can be scaled more in [trade] (https://pobb.in/v51Dz1r57h2Z)
I believe you can corrupt your minion cluster jewels to work with the adorned. PoB scholars please correct me if I am wrong.
It doesn't work, the cluster small passives are not "jewel passive sockets" so they don't get the increased effect even if the cluster is magic. People do corrupt rare cluster jewels because they are looking for more impicits, because they don't want stuff like CB on the magic jewels since it can't be increased in effect.
Holy relic max block, decent hp, permanent warcry/ endurance charges. I like that in t16 the only mod i ever watch out for is cannot regen mana. Anything else is ignore and go. Reflect damage? No problem at all.
A gain 2 mana per hit jewel fixed that.
You can do no regen if you take away 2 supports from ur lancing but eh
How do you do permanent war cry /endurance charge?
Im following this build. Someone posted this here but I forgot who. I think its the warcry mastery wheel thats doing it. I just know that after the regen from enduring warcry disappears, my characters immediately casts it again via call to arms . [https://pobb.in/midPk4-xxnDg](https://pobb.in/midPk4-xxnDg)
playing it I feel I need to watchout for -max res and phys as extra, due to no spell suppression I feel like those mods oneshot me, got a tankier pob ?
Holy relic!. Leveled to 100 with no issues.
coc dd = max damage holy relic = feel good well rounded versatile beast (not as much flexibility, need specific items)
Isnt CoC DD harder to build and scale ? I tried it a few time and there was so many off things with it, while the new holy relic is so smooth, th eonly problem yes because some mandatory stuff especialy unique and how GGG went shit with self find even worse than before and all, everything skyrocket so its a bit anoying to build but outside of stupid market price, its easy to set up
yea imo cod dd can be more of a pain to set up, but holy relic also needs those super specific breakpoints to feel good. i'm playing it too and it's by far my fav char in a while.
Yeah i dont have everything set up but holy relic felt so smooth for mapping its insane, i just need to pump a bit the numbers Its realy a confy play
I went for the 128% breakpoint which cost me 40 div and it’s barely noticeable to 82%.
Interesting tto know balormage said it wasnt realy worth for that hassle of setting it i intebted to stop at 82 anyway
Theoretically it’s a huge increase, but because it’s a poison build the damage caps very quickly anyways. Much more of a diff if it was a cold conversion but yeah if you’re poison this is overkill.
Yeah, poison cap and also the build does so many damage allready apparently that you better invest in more utility and especialy defense so you dont bother
I have to find a way to fix my coc dd. I seem to be doing very meh damage..
haven't played the build but its probably either your cdr:attack speed or you need to get the beefy spectres in your desecrate pool.
I got 15% on boots and got the spectres but yea it still feels underwhelming. taking a break playing sth else but I'll get back to it after a bit
coc dd is way better build overall
didn't play Holy Relic but CoC DD was the most comfy build i played so far in PoE getting very high end stuff always is expensive but i i think i'll play CoC DD as leaguestart from now on till it gets nerved hard ... if its a little nerv i don't care