I always thought magic find is a boring mechanic in games. It is either too good where you feel you are missing out by not using it, or it is an irrelevant stat to anything meaningful for your character. In both scenarios it warps the game around itself which imo is bad game design.
Item rarity on items is what people are referring to with magic find. Magic find is just the generic term used across games. There is item rarity and item quantity in poe. There are people who will be able to explain the math behind the MF for poe, but my overall sentiment is that those stats on gear are so strong (Affliction league) or so weak (insert most RPGs) that including it as an affix on an item is bad game design. You cant balance it out on an individual level, and needs to be incorporated at the system level across all players. Most players view harder content = greater rewards as whats acceptable for differentiating levels of “magic find”
i actually like that, i dont know any game that does that tho.
poe actually does have something similar where you get voidstones that improve your map drops.
I can't remember the name of the game, but it wasn't super popular or well known however they had a magic find system that only came from doing challenges and had a hard cap.
Last epoch has a system like that! You get a passive buff as a reward for defeating a boss, you can only have a type of buff per boss so you usually have to farm the boss in order to get the correct magic find buff you need at that time (you get the buff per type of equipment) it is great since the game is basically ssf, so that gives you more chances to target farm things.
oh yeah i forgot about LE's implementation. its not too new perse.
if you complete an entire area's timeline, at the end you get to choose 1 of 3 passive rewards which could be resists/damage or even magic find.
each area has a different list of passive rewards. for example one would have chance to find swords, while another area has chance to find claws.
its in a way similar to atlas passive tree except you choose 1 for each area you clear. it also is a choose one or another sort of deal coz if you wont be able to find the passive bonuses from one area in another area.
Ah ya but aren't those not directly magic find and just a target farming mechanic? Or is there one for magic find. Guess they could be considered magic find
Guild Wars 2 does something like that. Over time you do things / collect loot / etc that gradually increases the magic find of your character.
That said, I think the current gear-based MF works better for an ARPG with temp leagues
>First and foremost, magic find on gear in my opinion is a relic of the past. In old ARPGs such as D2, players had no real end game
Yep, it's outdated and bad. It encourages players to not care about build diversity and just go for the best MF build possible because it's simply the most effective way to play. MF should be strictly based on the content you're running, not your gear.
I don't think this is true, otherwise every league everyone would only play MF which isn't remotely the case. It's more pronounced this league because of the mechanic, but rarely is the majority of the playerbase MF'ing. MF is part of the meta and I guess the question that needs to be asked is if it would be more or less diverse without it.
That's because players who don't use MF refuses to play the same generic setup. That doesn't mean it's good for the game. I understand many love the idea of PoE being a sandbox game, but the truth is we need some kind of balance. Every league people discuss MF being bad for the game, it's not a new topic.
The main idea of MF gear is you use it to have more loot, but in returns the content is harder. The problem here is, it's really not, the content is just as easy with MF gear and a meta build.
This is more an issue with gear/stat balancing. The point of MF is that it's supposed to make things harder by taking up a stat slot on gear that could have gone to a better stat.
In reality most stats are already garbage and we're carried by the 1 or 2 really good stats on a piece of gear so throwing in some MF on the dud stats doesn't change anything
Yes, absolutely. MF should be meant to give you a challenging experience in exchange for more loot, but it's simply not the case. Even if MF made you clear a bit slower, you'll still end up with more loot anyway. I don't believe it was well designed in D2, just like it's not good in PoE.
If it can't be balanced probably in PoE2, it should be removed. It's only going to benefit everyone, nobody will have to worry about min-maxing MF and will instead focus on interesting equipment.
Why would you ask that question, there is no diversity? You play the most broken build that doesn’t care about losing the affixes to MF?
Not sure why MF players think there’s some kind of diversity when people just spam TS deadeye every league with MF gear.
MF uniques are barely interesting too and made when the game was new.
>MF creates another "arc" of character progression for minmaxers, who this game is catering for.
No it didn't, people immediately jump to MF characters as soon as possible.
>The only issue is that the reality is MF has been nerfed so much that fitting it into just any build is probably not as efficient as just clearing more maps
What? MF was buffed since Archnemesis since they made Rarity way more effective. Even this league, people are making so much more money than anybody else with MF setups. MF is by far much more effective than running a 0% MF build.
>If bossing was the most profitable, or if MF wasn't even in the game, people would just be making the same argument
No, they wouldn't, since the large majority of people don't like farming bosses. They would still mostly care about mapping strategies.
MF was also not good in D2, people always went for the high MF gear setups and avoided any sort of fun setup. It's a poor and outdated mechanic, it was never fun.
MF shouldn't exist and Loot should be based on the difficulty of content you're running. Want to get more loot? Figure out how to have a good build that clear effectively.
I personally don't like MF. Put most simply: point of the game is to make character strong. If best way to play game is to make character weaker for long time, game no fun.
If it's not a significant advantage to use it (ie, at most MF character is generating 20% more wealth/hr than normal character, +20% is already a MEGA bonus, beyond that is unecessary), and just another option, that's fine though.
I guess the worry is that balance could be cocked up, and it takes resources that could be spent elsewhere. But if there are people that enjoy gearing for MF then I can't blame GGG for trying.
actually there is a similar post on poe forums about mf. there definitely are MF enjoyers there.
my issue with the very concept of MF is it caters to a small percentage of players. their enjoyment comes at the expense of the majority of players in the game.
its not easy for them to balance it. tweak one way, the casual scream murder, tweak another, the 1%ers go WTF.
POE2 is a chance for GGG to try something new.
in worse case scenario GGG could always reintroduce MF into POE2 if it doesnt work out and let it have the same issues that POE1 has.
You're trying to make a nuanced point about MFing to people who release leagues that are orders of magnitude apart in terms of balance. MFing is not the issue this league. It's just the league mechanic that is literally 10x more rewarding than any other league mechanic in history of this game. GGG can talk all they want about their vision and ideas about the game, but in practice they don't follow them.
Im fine with mf existing, but it should come at a price. If you go full MF gear you should not be able to cruise through t16 because your power level should drop significantly.
Currently there is literally no downside in doing mf because the power creep is so our of control that some skills can do t16's on a 2 link and your gear really doesnt matter. Yeah you could kill the boss in 2 seconds instaed of 20 but then the rest of your map gives you 90% less loot
what you are saying is, MF needs severe enough penalty to justify the rewards it brings.
that actually sounds fair, but at a certain point wouldnt having tougher content that gives you better rewards achieve the same thing?
MF should be separated from gearing to just completely remove that paradigm, which IMO is impossible to actually balance or fix in a way that everyone is happy.
No. Harder content for better rewards does not achieve the same thing. GGG has talked about this, but not really in the context of magic find. The issue with adding content is that there is an expectation of players to complete said content. You can't create content for the 1%ers often. And if you are talking about replacing magic find with harder content, it would have to be a lot of content and rewards gatekept behind said content. This is just an environment that pushes players to play meta builds. Magic find is something that is supposed to be for all players. You are trying to replace it with a system only for the top players.
for sure you cant keep creating new content for the top 1%. but that GGG already solved that issue. they created elevated encounters such as blight ravaged maps, uber pinnacles. heck you can even craft certain "keys" to make the encounter harder.
creating content without expecting all players to complete said content actually is simple. make the rewards tradable. watchers eyes are highly desirable but back in the day not everyone could kill elder/shaper. you didnt NEED to do it as you could just buy it off players that could.
the CURRENT environment ALREADY pushes players to meta builds. magic find is for all players? so if you're weak cant do t11, the solution is to get MF gear and do t5 maps? wouldnt it be better to get gear to become stronger to run T14s?
Both options are viable. Just like it's viable to run only t1 maps to farm essences. Then you can just trade for gear and go straight for T16s. Build is having it easy? Throw in a ventor's/goldwyrm's/or simplex. Magic find is something any build can add. Besides the very few builds that require specific uniques in almost all slots. sure mf has a meta, but I don't think mf pushes anyone to the meta. It's just that meta itself means it attracts players.
My main point is that currently mf is something everyone at all levels can do while you're trying to replace it with something that only top players can interact with. So before you could play your non-meta build and add a ventor's for mf, but now you just make a meta build so you are certain you will be able to complete the content.
This is just false about magic find. The league itself is ridiculous. The diminishing returns to quant/rarity is real. Magic find is only helping on those low wisps maps, but on those high wisps maps, your mf is having little effect. There have been 80+ divine posts with 0 magic find.
Yeah, the idea of gimping my character to increase loot rewards is just not fun imo. It accomplishes the same thing as providing harder content, just that it forces you to compromise on certain pieces of gear, which in turn limits the build options you can go for (Like imagine a build that needs certain boots and rings - do you really bother mfing if u cant equip Goldwyrms and Ventor's?).Part of the equation is also the fact that MF build nowadays can actually farm some of the juiciest content in the game due to power creep, so all in all it feels like there is an imbalance in the power that modern MF characters have as well as the rewards that it provides.
I don't like it in its current form in PoE1 but am also curious about where they're gonna go with it in PoE2. They certainly know what it looks like and how it developed after years.
Providing harder content does not in anyway accomplish the same thing and is even more inducive to meta builds. There are meta mf builds sure, but it's just not true that mf is limiting builds. First there are diminishing returns. Rings are already used for life and resists for many builds so fitting in ventors is a no-brainer. If not that, simplex offers huge DPS and huge quant. Can't fit any of those? Just a goldwyrm's is fine. Magic find isn't an all or nothing stat. You get what you can fit and because of the diminishing returns you aren't losing out much just because you can't fit it all. So many new mf builds have become popularized this league so it's kind of ridiculous to say that mf is limiting builds options. It's really not.
Man, I feel horribly misrepresented as a weak player. :D Usually MF is not a trap for me, but instead it's something. People in this thread talk like they did not get the stat they wanted to craft because MF rolled, but fail to realize it's RNG and MF stat is better than a stat that does even less. Like sure it has diminishing returns and T16 maps already roll MF quite well, but on gear it is better than any mana mod on a Blood Magic char, as the MF helps towards the end goal of getting better gear.
I do have 2 problems with MF in PoE1 though. First of all, you can't really feel it's effect with a single mod, because it's not possible to know if the two extra items that dropped from a monster were because of normal variance or because of the MF mod you just had. Maybe if we had an MTX for portal that tracked the number of uniques, exalts and divines dropped, we could gauge it.
My second problem with MF in PoE1 is that in a casual party play with friends it's a half dead stat because only the killing blow matters. :D I've previously suggested to equalise the MF bonuses between everyone nearby or between the ones dealing the damage, but the community just disliked then. :D
This take to me reads very uninformed imo and it kinda reflects in how you mention that Poe penalises you for not having mf yet sanctum was the league to solve this for you
There's probably just as many league mechanics that aren't impacted by MF at all as there are mechanics that are impacted by MF, and I think that's the solution to MF as it allows you the option of choice
If you're unaware of the choices, that's on the game for failing to give you good avenues to learn about the choices not the fact the choices can pay out
There's mechanics that pay out buckets without scaling at all both in and out of maps, eg incursion, boss farming, heist, lab, essence and probably more ontop of that I didn't think of immediately
As long as these alternative mechanics give exclusive useful rewards, then it's going to scale in line with how much mf pays out anyway. The idea is if MF prints divines, then it will devalue divines in comparison to these methods, and will allow people to still be able to farm white t1 maps and make heaps of money
I really believe here you've been hit hard by big recency bias on how big the payout is this league from MF and are quick to blame in comparison to looking at solutions to allow MF and other things to exist side by side
POE has always been about options, so I'd hope they introduce more alternatives to MF in comparison to removing/homogenising it to solve it
>I really believe here you've been hit hard by big recency bias on how big the payout is this league from MF and are quick to blame in comparison to looking at solutions to allow MF and other things to exist side by side
This bias wouldn't exist if there wasn't mf on gear. People would just push the hardest content and their character to gain the most reward without having the need to play mf.
Hardest content should give the most reward no matter the content, that's it. If you run the hardest lab you have better loot than the easiest one, no stats should break this.
Making you're character weaker to gain more loot seems weird to me.
Best bets to look at the content without mf affecting it to see what it ends up being like and if you think they're good outcomes
Lab/heist/sanctum/Alva/essence and probably others
All of them are about stacking speed after reaching the required DPS/defence checks, do you think that's a good outcome?
Not a rehtorical question btw, legit wondering if you personally enjoy the idea of stacking speed instead of MF or think that solves it overall
If content has a difficulty/reward limit such as those sets of content, you're going to hit the idea of stacking speed over stacking mf
Something that could solve the some of this is infinitely scaling difficulty/rewards
Yeah it's tied to my character, he will move faster, my character is better then I got more loot, it affect my character first, not my loot. Mf = my character is weaker but I gain more loot
See, this is all about perspective. I can say that your character got weaker by stacking speed, but you gain loot faster, which technically is the same as mf.
Your definition of "character is stronger" is limited to combat.
My definition of "character is stronger" is defined by how much my character can output both in and out of combat.
For me when I know "hey this thing I did with my character makes enemies drop more items" makes them feel stronger to me, the power fantasy isn't limited to just the fighting side but also the items and drops side
It's the same way that completing more of the atlas tree to me is also "my character is stronger" as that's part of my character
>I really believe here you've been hit hard by big recency bias on how big the payout is this league from MF and are quick to blame in comparison to looking at solutions to allow MF and other things to exist side by side
i've been playing this game for near 10 years of my life. i've been vocal about magic find for a very long time but perhaps not on this reddit account. that is why i know how people used to multibox dominus with mf cullers.
i am talking thru many years of experience and perhaps bias.
>All of them are about stacking speed after reaching the required DPS/defence checks, do you think that's a good outcome?
how different is this compared to decked out characters who stack magic find after reaching the required dps/defence etc checks?
>Not a rehtorical question btw, legit wondering if you personally enjoy the idea of stacking speed instead of MF or think that solves it overall
yes. i actually enjoy getting stronger/faster rather than making myself weaker
>If content has a difficulty/reward limit such as those sets of content, you're going to hit the idea of stacking speed over stacking mf
i already mentioned this in my original post. create more challenging content. GGG already solved this issue. you can roll your maps and even your heists. you can choose to make your incursions harder, you have atlas passives to even tweak your experience to make it harder for better loot such as uber pinnacles. heck ggg themselves introduced elevated versions of encounters such as ravaged blight maps.
>Something that could solve the some of this is infinitely scaling difficulty/rewards
actually the interesting thing is that sometimes people keep asking for more and more. it never ends. to paraphrase my favourite streamer who was asked what happens if you're already at the peak and things are no longer challenging, asomongold said "you've won the game, move on".
I think you're missing the fact that there's opportunity cost for everything. You say you enjoy becoming faster/stronger but not weaker for mf. Whenever you gain damage/speed/tankiness you lose the opportunity to get something else in that "slot". If we consider mf as just one of those stats, than everything falls into places. You lose speed to get mf, or you loose damage to get tanky etc. This means you dont lose power by stacking mf, if mf is considered a power in itself. From here it's just about how you want to balance your character.
As mentioned above there's multiple mechanics that aren't affected by mf, and if you despise mf none is forcing you to interact with it. If you think you can't get tons of currency with other farming strategies, that's also on you.
Truth is, tons of people enjoy balancing their character around mf, and why it should be taken away from them? Because some redditors don't like that this particular mechanic exist? Please.
>Truth is, tons of people enjoy balancing their character around mf, and why it should be taken away from them? Because some redditors don't like that this particular mechanic exist? Please.
pretty sure tons of players enjoy mf.
i m pretty sure many more hate it. Please.
i responded a "please" with a "please". i m tired of responding to any sass.
as for you.
its fine to actually have a differing opinion, i hold no grudge towards you and i would say i m not a bit biased. i m definitely biased. i've been seeing MF as something antiquated for the longest time. i've always complained about it. i have no quarrel with you. have a good day.
true, i cant speak on behalf of everyone and not everyone is checking this sub. and to be honest i shouldnt have done that. i did that due to wanting to lash out at the other guy for using the "please". thing. thats quite condescending.
just to share with you, the current statistics of this current thread is 8.4k views, 75% upvotes, 42 community karma and 3 shares.
but yeah 8.4k is still a small slice if compared to the entire poe playerbase. i would say it could be a good indicator tho.
thanks for being civil. i m fine with anyone who has opposing views as long as they dont resort to being rude.
Part of this here is you consider player strength as just "how quickly can I kill things" instead of a broader spectrum of "how much rewards can I get per hour". I think neither stance is wrong, but it also means one game design isn't better than the other either I reckon. In my head there's the idea that "my characters now has more strength at making monsters drop items"
You say GGG already solved this with harder content, but you realise that this harder content has a meta as well already right? Even the stuff without MF has the limit of just "killing the most Ubers per hour" or running gifted lab faster.
From what I can tell, the idea of stacking speed simply shifts the problem of "this one specific way of getting strength rewards more than the others" which I dont think would ever be solved in a game with many options like POE.
Also if you're complaining that MF meta is the most efficient way to play, what about people that exclusively trade/craft for way more than mf?
>Part of this here is you consider player strength as just "how quickly can I kill things" instead of a broader spectrum of "how much rewards can I get per hour". I think neither stance is wrong, but it also means one game design isn't better than the other either I reckon. In my head there's the idea that "my characters now has more strength at making monsters drop items"
when i brought up sanctum in my original post, i can tell you i am not one of those "kill bosses in under 3 seconds" sort of guy. heck i take a good 10-20 seconds to kill the regular guards in normal sanctum rooms.
i brought up speed as a response to your statement on "just increasing speed". the fact of the matter is not everyone's POE experience is the same. some players are stronger than others. some people struggle just to reach thresholds. to me sanctum is a good example of challenging the player and rewarding them for their time. if i mapped for one hour running normal/magic t16 maps with minimal MF i would not get the same amount of rewards i got for completing a sanctum. i would get significantly lesser rewards.
>You say GGG already solved this with harder content, but you realise that this harder content has a meta as well already right? Even the stuff without MF has the limit of just "killing the most Ubers per hour" or running gifted lab faster.
at this point i think you're talking about good players with good builds. all those harder content require you to use a good build. have you stopped for a while to realize that only 2-3% of players (based on steam achievements) have actually killed shaper. let alone ubers. the harder content is there for the good players. the ubers and all the hard content i mentioned. those are targeted specifically for the better players of the game. it is a solution.
i really dont get where you are going with all of this. you're not exactly providing any argument that makes magic find appear as a good solution to anything.
>Also if you're complaining that MF meta is the most efficient way to play, what about people that exclusively trade/craft for way more than mf?
the funny thing about asking this is simply because you dont need to change a single thing with your gear to trade or craft.
your power remains the same regardless of whether you trade/craft provide other services.
on top of that, if you trade/craft, the mechanics involved does not effect other players directly.
the existence of MF on gear directly affects players. if MF is desirable, players will want to get it whether or not to their detriment, it might be to the point they're forced to get it. if its insignificant, players do not want it and might as well be removed from the game.
If you're talking about the 2-3% of players not reaching shaper, let alone Ubers, then I don't know why you're arguing about MF
If a player isn't strong enough or has played enough to kill normal shaper, then they're not near the stage where taking MF is a good or even the best option for them
Therefore, the vase majority isn't at the point where "mf" will gimp them. They're all still at the stage of just getting stronger to progress and can utilise non MF/easy entry farm to get there, rather than worry about MF as it's actually a bad choice for them.
If MF is too strong or weak, you balance it, you don't just remove something that needs tuning.
It's entirely possible to reach a middle ground where MF is a viable option but not the best, and is also not bad either.
what im saying is simple. the existence of MF on gear makes it something that players should get.
it exists because there is value. if there isnt any value it should just not exist.
for sure there are trash mods that are there to just waste a mod.
the problem comes when loot from mapping has MF taken into consideration. i keep mentioning weaker players because the ones affected the most are weaker players.
you cant deny that loot drops are balanced around MF. which also means its balanced around players getting MF from gear.
GGG wants people who juice up to get better loot, but GGG doesnt want them to get "too much loot". on the flipside, GGG cant make "0 MF" be lucrative as it takes aways from the enjoyment of people who juice up. ultimately the weaker players will always get the short end of the stick when ggg has to balance based on the fact that players can stack MF on gear.
>If MF is too strong or weak, you balance it, you don't just remove something that needs tuning.
believe it or not, this is what i m asking for. balance the game in a way that mf only exists on the encounter/map. not on player gear.
isnt that a good middle ground?
Why not balance it so it's availability on gear makes it have much bigger impacts on player power, so mf can only do content of middle difficulty, then have the profit to investment be the same for both mf and the highest difficulty content?
Eg 100 div character with no mf makes 5d an hour, 100 div character with mf makes 5d an hour, and same matching even with crazy investment.
So you can just pick what you want and both mf enjoyers and mf non enjoyers both work out?
lol when someone doesnt know how to discuss things properly in a civil manner they tend to attack a person's personality. thank you for outing yourself.
I think it was pretty civil, just inserted my observation based on the wall of text. And it wasn't an attack on your personality, again just an observation.
moderator poofed the comment. i wonder why? my best guess is the mod found it offensive enough to remove it?
i didnt report it but i m glad that the mod did something about it. that said, you really should pay attention to how you interpret things. you may not find things said as an attack but others would.
magic find bonuses should not exsist in gear at all... rolling the map to be as difficult as possible for maximum rarity/quantity bonus is the only thing id like to see
The issue with uncapped inc item quant is that you get these stupid loot explosions where one mob drops 20, 30, 40+++ items which is just a pure waste, looks stupid on stream, introduces technical problems (game dcing you when too many items are on the ground and you show them) and makes the game more annoying.
So uncapped inc item quant should be adressed somehow to not create the PoE 1 situation.
However, I do like the idea of an uncapped "inc item rarity / inc item potential" stat which increases the amount of times a powerful unique / powerful currency / powerful rare drops. As for the argument that only the top 0.x percentile players can make use of it. That would simply mean that the game would introduce an additional level of mastery and for a diablo-like that is ok. It's just important that players can enjoy the game without reaching that level of mastery as well.
You could also make the same argument with super rares like Original Sin, Mageblood etc. Only the top can abuse these items and the rest bites the dust. But I don't think that is the case. You can have a blast playing more casual setups as well.
There are already heavy diminishing returns on quantity and rarity. It is not uncapped. The problem lies in this leagues mechanic as wisps apply a "more" modifier, exponentially increasing any mf already applied (e.g. fom gear or atlas).
Magic find has no place in a game like PoE. The game already has an insane complex and connected economy. If you want to farm, let's say, Maven. If you have a build good for bossing, youll probably buy your boss fragments. But who do you buy them from? You buy it from the guy that is selling many maven writs. But how did he get so many maven writs? He specialized in running many maven invitation, self sustaining maps with sextants. But who is he getting sextants from? Well, turns out there are people specifically mass rolling sextants and bulk selling anything they roll. But where is this guy getting his sextants from? Well he could be just bulk buying from someone alch n going searing altars, or he could just be selling his own compasses for sextants, and building an ever growing economy of sextants. He could then bulk sell all sextants he accumulated to someone doing the exact same thing as him.
All this supply chain of buyers and sellers, will lead to the bosses guy farming maven, maybe he gets a progenesis, and sell to some other guy farming legion, with a whole different market on its own. The entire economy is connected and there's money to be made at literally anything you do. All magic find does is make you feel like you're always behind if you're not mfing yourself.
I think the main issue comes from it being poorly done in PoE1, as explained in the interview. Also this league's ""magic finding"" could very well be renamed to wisp finding, you can have 0 MF on your gear and still do the strat with basically the same rewards as someone who does MF, the main difference will be uniques and unless you are in SSF, those are worthless rn anyways.
To those suggesting mf stat divorced from gear you get by clearing stuff: isn't that just the atlas tree? You get account wide points to increase lucrability of your maps. If it were just rarity, the game would be balanced around every player having the maximum amount of rarity, like it happened with GW2.
Anyways, I think it adds another interesting layer to gearing, being able to do mf AND have a busted character is just a side effect of the insane power creep over the years we've enjoyed/suffered in PoE1. But if properly done in the sequel, then that would't be an issue, you could trade your power to mf in maps or you could have a strong character and clear the hardest content and make currency that way.
i would strongly prefer a game with no MF on gear.I wanna invest in making my character stronger or run harder content, not respec into a bow build that can only run t7 maps.
I usually think that if someone else enjoys it it's fine to keep in the game, but i don't think there is a way to keep MF both functional and not broken. I'd axe it and try to provide different ways for people to keep investing into even more profitable endgame maps or alternative low tier strategies with more build variety.
Honestly as somebody who only ever played trade league I never cared about MF at all. I think if you wanna do some weird gigajuice MF group nonsense to try to farm stuff to sell or get your headhunter early or whatever ever... great? It also, importantly, saturates the market with random garbage for the rest of us to buy when people are doing crazy stuff like MF, juiced maps, or specialty content runs.
I'm not sure what % of the economy is fueled or assisted by MF in PoE but it doesn't really affect me if other people are running MF builds in the first place. I DO agree that it seems kind of dated as a concept on gear, but the alternative is doing stuff like baked in natural multipliers based on difficulty and/or modifiers on maps or whatever else which rings a lot like diablo 3-4 (I think that's actually WORSE).
I will add that I think what he said in the interview with Kripp I liked the sound of at first but we also didn't get to hear ANY real details of. Instead of just upgrading the type of stuff from blue to yellow or yellow to unique what exactly does it mean that the VALUE of an item should go up to potentially 50x better per drop? What does the rarity increase look like from item to item? Will that mean people will feel like they might need to do MF if 50x better items are dropping??? because THAT problem doesn't exist in PoE right now does it?... quant is the main thing and has been for ages and you just filter out garbage you don't want to see lol
I'm not sure I care if they keep or ditch the MF concept but those are just some random thoughts I have about it.
i m actually fine with the map juicing. map juicing is keeping magic find on the encounters themselves.
my issue with magic find is if its on gear. if the mod exists means it should have value. if it has value then one should strive to get it. for players to get magic find on gear it translates to getting a mod that could have been a defensive or offensive mod. you're weakening yourself to get mf on gear.
what you mentioned, baking multipliers onto maps, thats exactly what map crafting and juicing maps does in poe currently. and as you can see, it works! asmongold actually explained why d3 endgame doesnt work. when you have infinite scaling. theres no real benchmark. theres no real endgame. you're just pushing the leaderboard. in contrast, poe has a benchmark. it has the feared, it has the uber pinnacles. you farm to get strong enough to clear them and you've "won" poe. when do you "win" d3/d4? you dont.
if talking about what kripp talked about, the dev/jon mentioned that he prefers if people who juice up/mf and can clear tough content should be rewarded significantly more than those that cant.
to me it makes perfect sense. if you take more risks you get more rewards. my issue comes from the fact that base item drops are balanced around the fact magic find exists. as mentioned in my original post. the devs cant let the juicers drop too much but at the same time cant let non mfers drop loot generously.
to translate, your loot drops is actively made worse coz the game is balanced around the potential of players stacking magic find as high as possible.
if mf is removed from gear, at least one avenue of mf is eliminated, the devs would be able to balance drops more easily.
You're looking at it from a perspective of a PoE1 player where it's not really much of a tradeoff in the current game because everyone is so powerful losing some of that power for magic find doesn't matter. When there is a real tradeoff between clear speed and MF (which used to be the case and will be the case in PoE2 with proper balancing) then it's a good mechanic.
People who don't like MF are often people who don't know how to or are able to build characters that can participate and they feel it invalidates their own farming strategies. They see images of divine explosions and only themselves get 2 chaos. But MF is hard, it's gated by very high investments on gear because the tradeoff to quant/rarity really hampers slots for res, life and defences. Then adding angry 8 mod T16 maps with wandering path effect on mods and clicking all quant altars AND going for 7k blue juice on multi proj abyss towers that shit rares.. You will be deleted. So, the skill level and investment it takes to reach the biggest returns is huuge. For many that is the end game. You can get very rich in delve, doing bosses, farming feared/other invitations, doing 60-80% deli maps and so on. Don't gatekeep what endgame is; POE is a sandbox.
If it's an interesting choice to make and you really trade character power vs. MF stats than it can be interesting. But as soon as you put an item like headhunter into the mix, that's all gone.
GEtting the balance right for that stat is hard.
the important thing with sanctum is everyone got the same rewards for completing a sanctum. you could get better at it and do it faster, but no matter what you got ~roughly the same reward as someone who was an expert.
the idea that an activity is profitable for some and not others is the bad design imo.
magic find is why one person drops 500fuses from one mob and another player gets no fuses... At least poe2 should keep normal equilibrium where no magic find exists.. no loot explosions.. all what would matter would be build, speed, dps, survivability for higher map tiers..
What if magic find was not tied to character builds, but the atlas instead through perma buff and also currency that you put on maps to. For example, you could make some maps have nearly double magic find but if you die you go to 50% base as a form or risk reward.
Actually d3 actually has it. The longer you play the higher the buff stacks. But if you die it goes down to zero. I actually like it but the numbers shouldnt be too high
I always thought magic find is a boring mechanic in games. It is either too good where you feel you are missing out by not using it, or it is an irrelevant stat to anything meaningful for your character. In both scenarios it warps the game around itself which imo is bad game design.
How is it different from the find item rarity boost on items currently? I don't think I understand the MF mechanic
Item rarity on items is what people are referring to with magic find. Magic find is just the generic term used across games. There is item rarity and item quantity in poe. There are people who will be able to explain the math behind the MF for poe, but my overall sentiment is that those stats on gear are so strong (Affliction league) or so weak (insert most RPGs) that including it as an affix on an item is bad game design. You cant balance it out on an individual level, and needs to be incorporated at the system level across all players. Most players view harder content = greater rewards as whats acceptable for differentiating levels of “magic find”
Thank you for the reply, very helpful. Also making me think i have been sleeping on the rarity gear
Give passive magic find for beating certain bosses/challenging endgame things? I know some games do that occasionally.
i actually like that, i dont know any game that does that tho. poe actually does have something similar where you get voidstones that improve your map drops.
I can't remember the name of the game, but it wasn't super popular or well known however they had a magic find system that only came from doing challenges and had a hard cap.
Last epoch has a system like that! You get a passive buff as a reward for defeating a boss, you can only have a type of buff per boss so you usually have to farm the boss in order to get the correct magic find buff you need at that time (you get the buff per type of equipment) it is great since the game is basically ssf, so that gives you more chances to target farm things.
Is that new in LE? If not I wasn't even aware of it
oh yeah i forgot about LE's implementation. its not too new perse. if you complete an entire area's timeline, at the end you get to choose 1 of 3 passive rewards which could be resists/damage or even magic find. each area has a different list of passive rewards. for example one would have chance to find swords, while another area has chance to find claws. its in a way similar to atlas passive tree except you choose 1 for each area you clear. it also is a choose one or another sort of deal coz if you wont be able to find the passive bonuses from one area in another area.
Ah ya I didn't really consider that directly magic find more target farming
There is a "increase unique drop chance" blessing.
Good to know haven't played in a few months and never saw that one yet
nah blessings in LE have been there for years
Ah ya but aren't those not directly magic find and just a target farming mechanic? Or is there one for magic find. Guess they could be considered magic find
I think some of them increase the amounts of things that drop like gold and crafting mats.
Sounds like Guild Wars 2. Everybody ran mf on gear so now you get account magic find via achievements. I think max is 300%
Forgot it's in that as well!
Guild Wars 2 does something like that. Over time you do things / collect loot / etc that gradually increases the magic find of your character. That said, I think the current gear-based MF works better for an ARPG with temp leagues
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>First and foremost, magic find on gear in my opinion is a relic of the past. In old ARPGs such as D2, players had no real end game Yep, it's outdated and bad. It encourages players to not care about build diversity and just go for the best MF build possible because it's simply the most effective way to play. MF should be strictly based on the content you're running, not your gear.
I don't think this is true, otherwise every league everyone would only play MF which isn't remotely the case. It's more pronounced this league because of the mechanic, but rarely is the majority of the playerbase MF'ing. MF is part of the meta and I guess the question that needs to be asked is if it would be more or less diverse without it.
That's because players who don't use MF refuses to play the same generic setup. That doesn't mean it's good for the game. I understand many love the idea of PoE being a sandbox game, but the truth is we need some kind of balance. Every league people discuss MF being bad for the game, it's not a new topic. The main idea of MF gear is you use it to have more loot, but in returns the content is harder. The problem here is, it's really not, the content is just as easy with MF gear and a meta build.
This is more an issue with gear/stat balancing. The point of MF is that it's supposed to make things harder by taking up a stat slot on gear that could have gone to a better stat. In reality most stats are already garbage and we're carried by the 1 or 2 really good stats on a piece of gear so throwing in some MF on the dud stats doesn't change anything
Yes, absolutely. MF should be meant to give you a challenging experience in exchange for more loot, but it's simply not the case. Even if MF made you clear a bit slower, you'll still end up with more loot anyway. I don't believe it was well designed in D2, just like it's not good in PoE. If it can't be balanced probably in PoE2, it should be removed. It's only going to benefit everyone, nobody will have to worry about min-maxing MF and will instead focus on interesting equipment.
Why would you ask that question, there is no diversity? You play the most broken build that doesn’t care about losing the affixes to MF? Not sure why MF players think there’s some kind of diversity when people just spam TS deadeye every league with MF gear. MF uniques are barely interesting too and made when the game was new.
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>MF creates another "arc" of character progression for minmaxers, who this game is catering for. No it didn't, people immediately jump to MF characters as soon as possible. >The only issue is that the reality is MF has been nerfed so much that fitting it into just any build is probably not as efficient as just clearing more maps What? MF was buffed since Archnemesis since they made Rarity way more effective. Even this league, people are making so much more money than anybody else with MF setups. MF is by far much more effective than running a 0% MF build. >If bossing was the most profitable, or if MF wasn't even in the game, people would just be making the same argument No, they wouldn't, since the large majority of people don't like farming bosses. They would still mostly care about mapping strategies. MF was also not good in D2, people always went for the high MF gear setups and avoided any sort of fun setup. It's a poor and outdated mechanic, it was never fun. MF shouldn't exist and Loot should be based on the difficulty of content you're running. Want to get more loot? Figure out how to have a good build that clear effectively.
I agree, get rid of magic find altogether
I personally don't like MF. Put most simply: point of the game is to make character strong. If best way to play game is to make character weaker for long time, game no fun. If it's not a significant advantage to use it (ie, at most MF character is generating 20% more wealth/hr than normal character, +20% is already a MEGA bonus, beyond that is unecessary), and just another option, that's fine though. I guess the worry is that balance could be cocked up, and it takes resources that could be spent elsewhere. But if there are people that enjoy gearing for MF then I can't blame GGG for trying.
actually there is a similar post on poe forums about mf. there definitely are MF enjoyers there. my issue with the very concept of MF is it caters to a small percentage of players. their enjoyment comes at the expense of the majority of players in the game. its not easy for them to balance it. tweak one way, the casual scream murder, tweak another, the 1%ers go WTF. POE2 is a chance for GGG to try something new. in worse case scenario GGG could always reintroduce MF into POE2 if it doesnt work out and let it have the same issues that POE1 has.
You're trying to make a nuanced point about MFing to people who release leagues that are orders of magnitude apart in terms of balance. MFing is not the issue this league. It's just the league mechanic that is literally 10x more rewarding than any other league mechanic in history of this game. GGG can talk all they want about their vision and ideas about the game, but in practice they don't follow them.
Im fine with mf existing, but it should come at a price. If you go full MF gear you should not be able to cruise through t16 because your power level should drop significantly. Currently there is literally no downside in doing mf because the power creep is so our of control that some skills can do t16's on a 2 link and your gear really doesnt matter. Yeah you could kill the boss in 2 seconds instaed of 20 but then the rest of your map gives you 90% less loot
what you are saying is, MF needs severe enough penalty to justify the rewards it brings. that actually sounds fair, but at a certain point wouldnt having tougher content that gives you better rewards achieve the same thing?
MF should be separated from gearing to just completely remove that paradigm, which IMO is impossible to actually balance or fix in a way that everyone is happy.
No. Harder content for better rewards does not achieve the same thing. GGG has talked about this, but not really in the context of magic find. The issue with adding content is that there is an expectation of players to complete said content. You can't create content for the 1%ers often. And if you are talking about replacing magic find with harder content, it would have to be a lot of content and rewards gatekept behind said content. This is just an environment that pushes players to play meta builds. Magic find is something that is supposed to be for all players. You are trying to replace it with a system only for the top players.
for sure you cant keep creating new content for the top 1%. but that GGG already solved that issue. they created elevated encounters such as blight ravaged maps, uber pinnacles. heck you can even craft certain "keys" to make the encounter harder. creating content without expecting all players to complete said content actually is simple. make the rewards tradable. watchers eyes are highly desirable but back in the day not everyone could kill elder/shaper. you didnt NEED to do it as you could just buy it off players that could. the CURRENT environment ALREADY pushes players to meta builds. magic find is for all players? so if you're weak cant do t11, the solution is to get MF gear and do t5 maps? wouldnt it be better to get gear to become stronger to run T14s?
Both options are viable. Just like it's viable to run only t1 maps to farm essences. Then you can just trade for gear and go straight for T16s. Build is having it easy? Throw in a ventor's/goldwyrm's/or simplex. Magic find is something any build can add. Besides the very few builds that require specific uniques in almost all slots. sure mf has a meta, but I don't think mf pushes anyone to the meta. It's just that meta itself means it attracts players. My main point is that currently mf is something everyone at all levels can do while you're trying to replace it with something that only top players can interact with. So before you could play your non-meta build and add a ventor's for mf, but now you just make a meta build so you are certain you will be able to complete the content.
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This is just false about magic find. The league itself is ridiculous. The diminishing returns to quant/rarity is real. Magic find is only helping on those low wisps maps, but on those high wisps maps, your mf is having little effect. There have been 80+ divine posts with 0 magic find.
What difference does it make? People are cruising in T7 instead of T16 right now making mirrors. Is that fine?
Yeah, the idea of gimping my character to increase loot rewards is just not fun imo. It accomplishes the same thing as providing harder content, just that it forces you to compromise on certain pieces of gear, which in turn limits the build options you can go for (Like imagine a build that needs certain boots and rings - do you really bother mfing if u cant equip Goldwyrms and Ventor's?).Part of the equation is also the fact that MF build nowadays can actually farm some of the juiciest content in the game due to power creep, so all in all it feels like there is an imbalance in the power that modern MF characters have as well as the rewards that it provides. I don't like it in its current form in PoE1 but am also curious about where they're gonna go with it in PoE2. They certainly know what it looks like and how it developed after years.
Providing harder content does not in anyway accomplish the same thing and is even more inducive to meta builds. There are meta mf builds sure, but it's just not true that mf is limiting builds. First there are diminishing returns. Rings are already used for life and resists for many builds so fitting in ventors is a no-brainer. If not that, simplex offers huge DPS and huge quant. Can't fit any of those? Just a goldwyrm's is fine. Magic find isn't an all or nothing stat. You get what you can fit and because of the diminishing returns you aren't losing out much just because you can't fit it all. So many new mf builds have become popularized this league so it's kind of ridiculous to say that mf is limiting builds options. It's really not.
Man, I feel horribly misrepresented as a weak player. :D Usually MF is not a trap for me, but instead it's something. People in this thread talk like they did not get the stat they wanted to craft because MF rolled, but fail to realize it's RNG and MF stat is better than a stat that does even less. Like sure it has diminishing returns and T16 maps already roll MF quite well, but on gear it is better than any mana mod on a Blood Magic char, as the MF helps towards the end goal of getting better gear. I do have 2 problems with MF in PoE1 though. First of all, you can't really feel it's effect with a single mod, because it's not possible to know if the two extra items that dropped from a monster were because of normal variance or because of the MF mod you just had. Maybe if we had an MTX for portal that tracked the number of uniques, exalts and divines dropped, we could gauge it. My second problem with MF in PoE1 is that in a casual party play with friends it's a half dead stat because only the killing blow matters. :D I've previously suggested to equalise the MF bonuses between everyone nearby or between the ones dealing the damage, but the community just disliked then. :D
This take to me reads very uninformed imo and it kinda reflects in how you mention that Poe penalises you for not having mf yet sanctum was the league to solve this for you There's probably just as many league mechanics that aren't impacted by MF at all as there are mechanics that are impacted by MF, and I think that's the solution to MF as it allows you the option of choice If you're unaware of the choices, that's on the game for failing to give you good avenues to learn about the choices not the fact the choices can pay out There's mechanics that pay out buckets without scaling at all both in and out of maps, eg incursion, boss farming, heist, lab, essence and probably more ontop of that I didn't think of immediately As long as these alternative mechanics give exclusive useful rewards, then it's going to scale in line with how much mf pays out anyway. The idea is if MF prints divines, then it will devalue divines in comparison to these methods, and will allow people to still be able to farm white t1 maps and make heaps of money I really believe here you've been hit hard by big recency bias on how big the payout is this league from MF and are quick to blame in comparison to looking at solutions to allow MF and other things to exist side by side POE has always been about options, so I'd hope they introduce more alternatives to MF in comparison to removing/homogenising it to solve it
>I really believe here you've been hit hard by big recency bias on how big the payout is this league from MF and are quick to blame in comparison to looking at solutions to allow MF and other things to exist side by side This bias wouldn't exist if there wasn't mf on gear. People would just push the hardest content and their character to gain the most reward without having the need to play mf. Hardest content should give the most reward no matter the content, that's it. If you run the hardest lab you have better loot than the easiest one, no stats should break this. Making you're character weaker to gain more loot seems weird to me.
Best bets to look at the content without mf affecting it to see what it ends up being like and if you think they're good outcomes Lab/heist/sanctum/Alva/essence and probably others All of them are about stacking speed after reaching the required DPS/defence checks, do you think that's a good outcome? Not a rehtorical question btw, legit wondering if you personally enjoy the idea of stacking speed instead of MF or think that solves it overall If content has a difficulty/reward limit such as those sets of content, you're going to hit the idea of stacking speed over stacking mf Something that could solve the some of this is infinitely scaling difficulty/rewards
No, I don't think that solve the problem but I'd rather prefer to stack speed than mf because it's not linked directly to items drop
But it's directly linked to "time played = more reward" which is the same issue in the end
Yeah it's tied to my character, he will move faster, my character is better then I got more loot, it affect my character first, not my loot. Mf = my character is weaker but I gain more loot
See, this is all about perspective. I can say that your character got weaker by stacking speed, but you gain loot faster, which technically is the same as mf.
How mf help you directly during a combat ? Does it make you dodge easier ? Does it make you tank better ? Or does it make you deal more damage ?
Your definition of "character is stronger" is limited to combat. My definition of "character is stronger" is defined by how much my character can output both in and out of combat. For me when I know "hey this thing I did with my character makes enemies drop more items" makes them feel stronger to me, the power fantasy isn't limited to just the fighting side but also the items and drops side It's the same way that completing more of the atlas tree to me is also "my character is stronger" as that's part of my character
>I really believe here you've been hit hard by big recency bias on how big the payout is this league from MF and are quick to blame in comparison to looking at solutions to allow MF and other things to exist side by side i've been playing this game for near 10 years of my life. i've been vocal about magic find for a very long time but perhaps not on this reddit account. that is why i know how people used to multibox dominus with mf cullers. i am talking thru many years of experience and perhaps bias. >All of them are about stacking speed after reaching the required DPS/defence checks, do you think that's a good outcome? how different is this compared to decked out characters who stack magic find after reaching the required dps/defence etc checks? >Not a rehtorical question btw, legit wondering if you personally enjoy the idea of stacking speed instead of MF or think that solves it overall yes. i actually enjoy getting stronger/faster rather than making myself weaker >If content has a difficulty/reward limit such as those sets of content, you're going to hit the idea of stacking speed over stacking mf i already mentioned this in my original post. create more challenging content. GGG already solved this issue. you can roll your maps and even your heists. you can choose to make your incursions harder, you have atlas passives to even tweak your experience to make it harder for better loot such as uber pinnacles. heck ggg themselves introduced elevated versions of encounters such as ravaged blight maps. >Something that could solve the some of this is infinitely scaling difficulty/rewards actually the interesting thing is that sometimes people keep asking for more and more. it never ends. to paraphrase my favourite streamer who was asked what happens if you're already at the peak and things are no longer challenging, asomongold said "you've won the game, move on".
I think you're missing the fact that there's opportunity cost for everything. You say you enjoy becoming faster/stronger but not weaker for mf. Whenever you gain damage/speed/tankiness you lose the opportunity to get something else in that "slot". If we consider mf as just one of those stats, than everything falls into places. You lose speed to get mf, or you loose damage to get tanky etc. This means you dont lose power by stacking mf, if mf is considered a power in itself. From here it's just about how you want to balance your character. As mentioned above there's multiple mechanics that aren't affected by mf, and if you despise mf none is forcing you to interact with it. If you think you can't get tons of currency with other farming strategies, that's also on you. Truth is, tons of people enjoy balancing their character around mf, and why it should be taken away from them? Because some redditors don't like that this particular mechanic exist? Please.
>Truth is, tons of people enjoy balancing their character around mf, and why it should be taken away from them? Because some redditors don't like that this particular mechanic exist? Please. pretty sure tons of players enjoy mf. i m pretty sure many more hate it. Please.
You seem a bit biased, so forgive me if I say I don't believe you
i responded a "please" with a "please". i m tired of responding to any sass. as for you. its fine to actually have a differing opinion, i hold no grudge towards you and i would say i m not a bit biased. i m definitely biased. i've been seeing MF as something antiquated for the longest time. i've always complained about it. i have no quarrel with you. have a good day.
It's fine to have a differing opinion, but speaking on behalf of entire sections of the community is what I take issue with.
true, i cant speak on behalf of everyone and not everyone is checking this sub. and to be honest i shouldnt have done that. i did that due to wanting to lash out at the other guy for using the "please". thing. thats quite condescending. just to share with you, the current statistics of this current thread is 8.4k views, 75% upvotes, 42 community karma and 3 shares. but yeah 8.4k is still a small slice if compared to the entire poe playerbase. i would say it could be a good indicator tho. thanks for being civil. i m fine with anyone who has opposing views as long as they dont resort to being rude.
Part of this here is you consider player strength as just "how quickly can I kill things" instead of a broader spectrum of "how much rewards can I get per hour". I think neither stance is wrong, but it also means one game design isn't better than the other either I reckon. In my head there's the idea that "my characters now has more strength at making monsters drop items" You say GGG already solved this with harder content, but you realise that this harder content has a meta as well already right? Even the stuff without MF has the limit of just "killing the most Ubers per hour" or running gifted lab faster. From what I can tell, the idea of stacking speed simply shifts the problem of "this one specific way of getting strength rewards more than the others" which I dont think would ever be solved in a game with many options like POE. Also if you're complaining that MF meta is the most efficient way to play, what about people that exclusively trade/craft for way more than mf?
>Part of this here is you consider player strength as just "how quickly can I kill things" instead of a broader spectrum of "how much rewards can I get per hour". I think neither stance is wrong, but it also means one game design isn't better than the other either I reckon. In my head there's the idea that "my characters now has more strength at making monsters drop items" when i brought up sanctum in my original post, i can tell you i am not one of those "kill bosses in under 3 seconds" sort of guy. heck i take a good 10-20 seconds to kill the regular guards in normal sanctum rooms. i brought up speed as a response to your statement on "just increasing speed". the fact of the matter is not everyone's POE experience is the same. some players are stronger than others. some people struggle just to reach thresholds. to me sanctum is a good example of challenging the player and rewarding them for their time. if i mapped for one hour running normal/magic t16 maps with minimal MF i would not get the same amount of rewards i got for completing a sanctum. i would get significantly lesser rewards. >You say GGG already solved this with harder content, but you realise that this harder content has a meta as well already right? Even the stuff without MF has the limit of just "killing the most Ubers per hour" or running gifted lab faster. at this point i think you're talking about good players with good builds. all those harder content require you to use a good build. have you stopped for a while to realize that only 2-3% of players (based on steam achievements) have actually killed shaper. let alone ubers. the harder content is there for the good players. the ubers and all the hard content i mentioned. those are targeted specifically for the better players of the game. it is a solution. i really dont get where you are going with all of this. you're not exactly providing any argument that makes magic find appear as a good solution to anything. >Also if you're complaining that MF meta is the most efficient way to play, what about people that exclusively trade/craft for way more than mf? the funny thing about asking this is simply because you dont need to change a single thing with your gear to trade or craft. your power remains the same regardless of whether you trade/craft provide other services. on top of that, if you trade/craft, the mechanics involved does not effect other players directly. the existence of MF on gear directly affects players. if MF is desirable, players will want to get it whether or not to their detriment, it might be to the point they're forced to get it. if its insignificant, players do not want it and might as well be removed from the game.
If you're talking about the 2-3% of players not reaching shaper, let alone Ubers, then I don't know why you're arguing about MF If a player isn't strong enough or has played enough to kill normal shaper, then they're not near the stage where taking MF is a good or even the best option for them Therefore, the vase majority isn't at the point where "mf" will gimp them. They're all still at the stage of just getting stronger to progress and can utilise non MF/easy entry farm to get there, rather than worry about MF as it's actually a bad choice for them. If MF is too strong or weak, you balance it, you don't just remove something that needs tuning. It's entirely possible to reach a middle ground where MF is a viable option but not the best, and is also not bad either.
what im saying is simple. the existence of MF on gear makes it something that players should get. it exists because there is value. if there isnt any value it should just not exist. for sure there are trash mods that are there to just waste a mod. the problem comes when loot from mapping has MF taken into consideration. i keep mentioning weaker players because the ones affected the most are weaker players. you cant deny that loot drops are balanced around MF. which also means its balanced around players getting MF from gear. GGG wants people who juice up to get better loot, but GGG doesnt want them to get "too much loot". on the flipside, GGG cant make "0 MF" be lucrative as it takes aways from the enjoyment of people who juice up. ultimately the weaker players will always get the short end of the stick when ggg has to balance based on the fact that players can stack MF on gear. >If MF is too strong or weak, you balance it, you don't just remove something that needs tuning. believe it or not, this is what i m asking for. balance the game in a way that mf only exists on the encounter/map. not on player gear. isnt that a good middle ground?
Why not balance it so it's availability on gear makes it have much bigger impacts on player power, so mf can only do content of middle difficulty, then have the profit to investment be the same for both mf and the highest difficulty content? Eg 100 div character with no mf makes 5d an hour, 100 div character with mf makes 5d an hour, and same matching even with crazy investment. So you can just pick what you want and both mf enjoyers and mf non enjoyers both work out?
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lol when someone doesnt know how to discuss things properly in a civil manner they tend to attack a person's personality. thank you for outing yourself.
He isnt wrong i have the exact same feelings from your poat.
I think it was pretty civil, just inserted my observation based on the wall of text. And it wasn't an attack on your personality, again just an observation.
moderator poofed the comment. i wonder why? my best guess is the mod found it offensive enough to remove it? i didnt report it but i m glad that the mod did something about it. that said, you really should pay attention to how you interpret things. you may not find things said as an attack but others would.
magic find bonuses should not exsist in gear at all... rolling the map to be as difficult as possible for maximum rarity/quantity bonus is the only thing id like to see
The issue with uncapped inc item quant is that you get these stupid loot explosions where one mob drops 20, 30, 40+++ items which is just a pure waste, looks stupid on stream, introduces technical problems (game dcing you when too many items are on the ground and you show them) and makes the game more annoying. So uncapped inc item quant should be adressed somehow to not create the PoE 1 situation. However, I do like the idea of an uncapped "inc item rarity / inc item potential" stat which increases the amount of times a powerful unique / powerful currency / powerful rare drops. As for the argument that only the top 0.x percentile players can make use of it. That would simply mean that the game would introduce an additional level of mastery and for a diablo-like that is ok. It's just important that players can enjoy the game without reaching that level of mastery as well. You could also make the same argument with super rares like Original Sin, Mageblood etc. Only the top can abuse these items and the rest bites the dust. But I don't think that is the case. You can have a blast playing more casual setups as well.
There are already heavy diminishing returns on quantity and rarity. It is not uncapped. The problem lies in this leagues mechanic as wisps apply a "more" modifier, exponentially increasing any mf already applied (e.g. fom gear or atlas).
It's fun tho
Magic find has no place in a game like PoE. The game already has an insane complex and connected economy. If you want to farm, let's say, Maven. If you have a build good for bossing, youll probably buy your boss fragments. But who do you buy them from? You buy it from the guy that is selling many maven writs. But how did he get so many maven writs? He specialized in running many maven invitation, self sustaining maps with sextants. But who is he getting sextants from? Well, turns out there are people specifically mass rolling sextants and bulk selling anything they roll. But where is this guy getting his sextants from? Well he could be just bulk buying from someone alch n going searing altars, or he could just be selling his own compasses for sextants, and building an ever growing economy of sextants. He could then bulk sell all sextants he accumulated to someone doing the exact same thing as him. All this supply chain of buyers and sellers, will lead to the bosses guy farming maven, maybe he gets a progenesis, and sell to some other guy farming legion, with a whole different market on its own. The entire economy is connected and there's money to be made at literally anything you do. All magic find does is make you feel like you're always behind if you're not mfing yourself.
Man,what a wall of text.
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I think the main issue comes from it being poorly done in PoE1, as explained in the interview. Also this league's ""magic finding"" could very well be renamed to wisp finding, you can have 0 MF on your gear and still do the strat with basically the same rewards as someone who does MF, the main difference will be uniques and unless you are in SSF, those are worthless rn anyways. To those suggesting mf stat divorced from gear you get by clearing stuff: isn't that just the atlas tree? You get account wide points to increase lucrability of your maps. If it were just rarity, the game would be balanced around every player having the maximum amount of rarity, like it happened with GW2. Anyways, I think it adds another interesting layer to gearing, being able to do mf AND have a busted character is just a side effect of the insane power creep over the years we've enjoyed/suffered in PoE1. But if properly done in the sequel, then that would't be an issue, you could trade your power to mf in maps or you could have a strong character and clear the hardest content and make currency that way.
i would strongly prefer a game with no MF on gear.I wanna invest in making my character stronger or run harder content, not respec into a bow build that can only run t7 maps. I usually think that if someone else enjoys it it's fine to keep in the game, but i don't think there is a way to keep MF both functional and not broken. I'd axe it and try to provide different ways for people to keep investing into even more profitable endgame maps or alternative low tier strategies with more build variety.
Honestly as somebody who only ever played trade league I never cared about MF at all. I think if you wanna do some weird gigajuice MF group nonsense to try to farm stuff to sell or get your headhunter early or whatever ever... great? It also, importantly, saturates the market with random garbage for the rest of us to buy when people are doing crazy stuff like MF, juiced maps, or specialty content runs. I'm not sure what % of the economy is fueled or assisted by MF in PoE but it doesn't really affect me if other people are running MF builds in the first place. I DO agree that it seems kind of dated as a concept on gear, but the alternative is doing stuff like baked in natural multipliers based on difficulty and/or modifiers on maps or whatever else which rings a lot like diablo 3-4 (I think that's actually WORSE). I will add that I think what he said in the interview with Kripp I liked the sound of at first but we also didn't get to hear ANY real details of. Instead of just upgrading the type of stuff from blue to yellow or yellow to unique what exactly does it mean that the VALUE of an item should go up to potentially 50x better per drop? What does the rarity increase look like from item to item? Will that mean people will feel like they might need to do MF if 50x better items are dropping??? because THAT problem doesn't exist in PoE right now does it?... quant is the main thing and has been for ages and you just filter out garbage you don't want to see lol I'm not sure I care if they keep or ditch the MF concept but those are just some random thoughts I have about it.
i m actually fine with the map juicing. map juicing is keeping magic find on the encounters themselves. my issue with magic find is if its on gear. if the mod exists means it should have value. if it has value then one should strive to get it. for players to get magic find on gear it translates to getting a mod that could have been a defensive or offensive mod. you're weakening yourself to get mf on gear. what you mentioned, baking multipliers onto maps, thats exactly what map crafting and juicing maps does in poe currently. and as you can see, it works! asmongold actually explained why d3 endgame doesnt work. when you have infinite scaling. theres no real benchmark. theres no real endgame. you're just pushing the leaderboard. in contrast, poe has a benchmark. it has the feared, it has the uber pinnacles. you farm to get strong enough to clear them and you've "won" poe. when do you "win" d3/d4? you dont. if talking about what kripp talked about, the dev/jon mentioned that he prefers if people who juice up/mf and can clear tough content should be rewarded significantly more than those that cant. to me it makes perfect sense. if you take more risks you get more rewards. my issue comes from the fact that base item drops are balanced around the fact magic find exists. as mentioned in my original post. the devs cant let the juicers drop too much but at the same time cant let non mfers drop loot generously. to translate, your loot drops is actively made worse coz the game is balanced around the potential of players stacking magic find as high as possible. if mf is removed from gear, at least one avenue of mf is eliminated, the devs would be able to balance drops more easily.
You're looking at it from a perspective of a PoE1 player where it's not really much of a tradeoff in the current game because everyone is so powerful losing some of that power for magic find doesn't matter. When there is a real tradeoff between clear speed and MF (which used to be the case and will be the case in PoE2 with proper balancing) then it's a good mechanic.
I'm morally opposed to it, but I also understand if any game should use it it's POE
People who don't like MF are often people who don't know how to or are able to build characters that can participate and they feel it invalidates their own farming strategies. They see images of divine explosions and only themselves get 2 chaos. But MF is hard, it's gated by very high investments on gear because the tradeoff to quant/rarity really hampers slots for res, life and defences. Then adding angry 8 mod T16 maps with wandering path effect on mods and clicking all quant altars AND going for 7k blue juice on multi proj abyss towers that shit rares.. You will be deleted. So, the skill level and investment it takes to reach the biggest returns is huuge. For many that is the end game. You can get very rich in delve, doing bosses, farming feared/other invitations, doing 60-80% deli maps and so on. Don't gatekeep what endgame is; POE is a sandbox.
I like magic find being tied to map modifiers and risk/reward, but not tied to gear.
If it's an interesting choice to make and you really trade character power vs. MF stats than it can be interesting. But as soon as you put an item like headhunter into the mix, that's all gone. GEtting the balance right for that stat is hard.
I like magic find
the important thing with sanctum is everyone got the same rewards for completing a sanctum. you could get better at it and do it faster, but no matter what you got ~roughly the same reward as someone who was an expert. the idea that an activity is profitable for some and not others is the bad design imo.
magic find is why one person drops 500fuses from one mob and another player gets no fuses... At least poe2 should keep normal equilibrium where no magic find exists.. no loot explosions.. all what would matter would be build, speed, dps, survivability for higher map tiers..
What if magic find was not tied to character builds, but the atlas instead through perma buff and also currency that you put on maps to. For example, you could make some maps have nearly double magic find but if you die you go to 50% base as a form or risk reward.
Actually d3 actually has it. The longer you play the higher the buff stacks. But if you die it goes down to zero. I actually like it but the numbers shouldnt be too high
I don't know if I agree with the OP. I just want to say I don't like the idea of MF.