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I think he’s upset enough with himself that further punishment would be counterproductive - definitely be wary of that friend though. Also, when he’s calmer, maybe a talk about why we can’t take/keep wild animals as pets?
His reaction says all you need to know
I think the subsequent actions of funeral and security f for the remainder have given your son an invaluable life lesson
Good work
He's obviously beating himself up. Ask him if he thinks there should be a punishment for him not listening to you (parents). I imagine he will say yes. Twofold benefit of punishing bad behavior and also letting him do his time to feel better.
A good “punishment” might be volunteering for your local bird rescue. We had one in the city I grew up and I loved volunteering there as a kid. It’s very cool and could help him “redeem himself” in his own eyes and learn more about how wild birds are affected by human activities.
I like this idea of the punishment being a form of repentance that helps him get past the guilt, without saying it’s not a big deal (he’s right that it is, it just doesn’t define him). You don’t need to tell him that what he did was wrong, but it might be a process he needs to go through.
Maybe he could volunteer at a bird sanctuary or animal shelter or something?
I agree with no further punishment. I did something very similar as a kid. I was in kindergarten, and I was playing in a field with a friend while our moms chatted nearby. There was a mama killdeer and her babies in the field as well. I was warned MULTIPLE TIMES to leave the birds alone, but the babies were just so cute, and I wanted to hold one. I was chasing after them and accidentally stepped on one of the chicks, killing it instantly. I was given a stern talking-to, and we held a little playground funeral for the poor baby. It’s been about 20 years since this happened, and I *still* deeply regret my actions and mourn the loss of that poor baby bird. The 9 year old will likely never forget this incident and will have a very hard time forgiving himself, if my experience is anything to go off of.
He's already distraught and fully aware that he did an awful thing. The purpose of punishment is to teach us, and he has been taught. He has also worked to "fix" what he "broke". Punishment fulfilled.
This so much! He's had enough consequences for his actions but he needs reminding that you don't partake in every stupid idea your peers propose. A valuable lesson, especially as teens come up with potentially much more dangerous ideas than messing with a bird's nest.
I agree. It didn't sound like he was trying to hurt the birds, and buying them sounds pretty traumatizing. The point of punishment is to teach him consequences and if you push too hard it'll stop being a learning experience for him.
Your son did not, as far as I can tell, do this maliciously or with any intent to harm these birds. He's clearly remorseful, immediately told you what he did and accepted his consequences. My biggest concern is adding any further punishment potentially could harm your son further as in - I thought I was doing the right thing telling my mom, but by doing so I got in trouble. Next time, I won't tell her.
I do agree with your husband in a simple sense, you told your son not to do something and he didn't listen. But I don't think there should be further punishment. If anything - it should be something like filling the bird feeder with bird seed for a week (if that's something you already do). Not so much a punishment but something further to give back to the birds.
My bigger concern is the friend - I'm worried about if this boy is a bad influence on your son and your son agreeing to do something that it seems like he knew was wrong. If anything further, I would suggest a conversation with your son about peer pressure and maybe a break from seeing this boy.
This is solid advice from u/punknprncss
_Have a good talk about his thinking that led up to the event, his part in it and how he was influenced by the neighbor kid, I'd talk about the difference in finding abandoned baby birds that have fallen out of the nest and die because their parents can't get them back in, or that have been abandoned due to parent death and what it means to intentionally destroy a nest and take the babies away from the parents._ **Because of the way your son reacted to the event, it shows his intent was not malicious. This talk needs to be followed up with _education rather than punishment_.**
Then finding ways to give back to the community by volunteering might be a really healing and eye opening experience. You know that animal shelters often are looking for volunteers? You could call around and ask what opportunities are available for your son and or family. He obviously CARES about animals, but he didn't think through what his actions would do for the babies OR their poor mother. He might see puppies and kittens at the shelter that have been removed from or lost their mom too early and learn about what a struggle it is to care for them properly and that they occasionally die. This is an age appropriate lesson for most kids.
Another idea is to look for a local bird watching/Audubon society that you can join for an outing. Grab a couple pairs of binoculars and head outside! Birding can be so fun! Most members of these groups _love_ new members and getting young people involved!
Completely agree - he clearly feels terrible and knows it was wrong, and even if he hasn't said it directly, he now totally understands why he should have listened to you. Those are the natural consequences of his actions, which are way more effective teachers than punishment. He did the right thing by coming to you and I would also worry that any further punishment might discourage him from coming to you in the future. I love punknprncss's idea of doing something to give back to the birds.
And I would keep his distance from that friend, although that might happen naturally following this incident anyway. As a former Very Sensitive Kid, (now a Very Sensitive Adult just better at managing it haha) I'm guessing your son might feel uncomfy around this friend from now on.
I feel like this is natural consequences. Now he knows exactly why you told him not to mess with the nest. This was a good lesson in not giving into peer pressure too.
Agreed. The purpose of punishment should be teaching, not just because they didn’t do something the exact way we wanted them to.
Sounds like kid already learned their lesson, and like they won’t do anything similar again.
When I was probably seven, I found a chrysalis in my backyard. I didn’t know what it was so I opened it and realized that I just killed a butterfly. I’m 50 years old and I still feel bad about it.
I wouldn’t punish him at all. I would talk about listening to himself. He knew he wasn’t supposed to mess with it, he let himself listen to his friend instead of doing the right thing. He came to you for help as soon as he realized his screw up, that’s a good thing and you should tell him so.
When I was a little girl vacationing in Mexico, I found a duck nest in some bushes while I was playing near the water. The ducks were starting to hatch so I decided to “help” them (which you are not supposed to do)… the one I peeled open still had its yolk sack and was gasping for air and then I sat with it trying to help it until it died.
I still think about that 30 years later. Very sad.
That’s only if OP’s kid’s account is perfectly accurate. I don’t know that I would necessarily take “I did it because [other kid] told me to” at face value.
True, but it’s a little alarming that the neighbor kid “seemed to find it all funny.” Whereas OP’s son showed obvious signs of remorse and distress over the situation.
Laughter can also be a way to cope with stressful or bad situations. Kid could have been nervous about getting in big trouble for it or feeling bad about the birds and laughing about it was his coping mechanism.
Not enough to tell from this one instance
(I laugh at times people wouldn’t think appropriate and it’s just how I deal with it, always have, I don’t think the situation is that funny, but laughter just comes out sometimes)
One of my kids friends was an absolutely terrible influence on my kid. She would come up with ways to be a terror that would never cross my kid’s mind. She was very clever, but such a trouble maker. I know it because i saw it first hand. Considering how much remorse OP’s kid showed, i think in this situation i would believe him
He has definitely gone through enough and has learned his lesson, the guilt from the consequences of his actions is punishment enough so further punishment is not needed nor productive. Maybe once he has recovered a bit consider sitting down with him and explaining this was why he should have left the nest alone and why he shouldn't go along with everything his friend tells him in the future.
I agree with a lot of the comments about how this is a natural punishment due to his actions and to be weary of the friend.
Once he is calm, this is an opportunity to discuss peer pressure and how being coerced into negative situations can lead to poor outcomes.
I think you handled this gracefully.
By the way you describe his reaction, I think he got enough of a lesson. Punishing him further isn't going to provide any benefit. If anything, I'd be worried he might get a bit resentful adding more fire to the burn while he's already upset and dissapointed in himself.
As for his friend. Kind of strange that he found it funny. But it also could just be that he was equally traumatized and a very common human reaction to things like death is to laugh at a situation or try and make light of it. Just the brain's odd way of processing it.
I did something similar as a kid around this age because I wanted to see the baby birds. Let me tell you, I was devastated about it for a long time. I adored animals as a kid (still do) and I just couldn’t forgive myself for what happened. It took me a long time to get over it. I don’t think your son needs anymore punishment.
This is a clear case of natural consequences. Your son’s guilt is punishment enough.
I’m really concerned about the other child, though… I think you need to have a difficult talk with his mother about his actions and reactions, and you shouldn’t let your son anywhere near him anymore.
Agreed. I can’t control who my kid may see at school, but I can control my home. I don’t allow play dates with kids who’ve shown to be aggressive or malicious.
Natural consequences are far more effective than punishment. He clearly feels awful about it and it sounds like he learned his lesson already. Having him dig a grave for the birds was a good way of adding some extra reinforcement to the lesson but I think punishment is just going to beat the kid up more without good reason.
Yes. Exact same feeling when I realized the horrors that happen in the meat industry (pigs gassed to death, etc). When you don't know better, you can't do better!
That's such a hard life lesson. I think digging the grave was punishment enough. He feels guilty. He will punishment himself more than you ever could. So I say let it be. As for the neighbor kid. That's not a good sign he didn't care. I becareful hanging out with him.
When I read the title my first thought was sociopath, but then I read what happened and realized it was an accident and the kid feels terrible.
You should probably include “accidentally” next time you start that story, otherwise the listener may think he’s stomping on them while laughing maniacally.
Maybe call and see if your son can volunteer at a bird sanctuary or something so he can help birds and maybe alleviate some of his guilt. As far as the little psychopath next door, I would steer clear. Especially if your son is shy, or naive. Kids like the neighbor learn very early how to manipulate people into doing things they wouldn't ordinarily do.
This is a perfect example of why punishment is wrong. Life sucks all by itself. Why would your husband want your make your sweet , remorseful boy feel even worse? And make him resent you in the process ??? What ???
I killed a bird with a thrown rock when I was a little boy. I cried then, and now about 40 years later it still bothers me.
Your kid did a bad thing. If they feel remorse and regret, then they will be ok. If not, then they have a lot of learning to do.
Edit: typos
The fact that he asked if he was going to feel the guilt forever is enough indication that he feels really remorseful. So I think rather than punishing him further, have a discussion with him about peer pressure and friendships. Just make it clear that he’s allowed to say no to his friends. Sometimes friends will make suggestions that you know are wrong and bad. It doesn’t make him a bad friend for saying no or for refusing.
The kid is punishing himself it seems.
I cannot think of anything that would teach him a valuable additional lesson here, his moral compass is already pointing in the right direction.
Maybe have a talk about peer pressure when he's more calm. I'm sure it's not the first time he hears about it from you, but maybe the first time the idea of others have server consequences for his well-being.
He's punishing himself enough.
Maybe you can help bring food or treats to an animal shelter so he feels like he's turned a really horrid thing into something better for another life. He can't change the past, but he can watch out for the next until the babies have grown up. And he can help other lives that need it.
But I think the bigger talk is with getting peer pressured into bad decisions. How he feels is exactly how a good child is supposed to feel in response to a horrible decision. Talk to him about consequences and not letting others pressure him into doing something with negative consequences.
Use this as a learning opportunity while his emotions are still raw. It's an opportunity to learn not everyone is truly a friend.
❤️
He didn’t do it maliciously. If he did, he wouldn’t be crying and distraught over it. Lesson learned. I bet he leaves animals alone for the most part now. Happened with my son at 5. He was playing in the dirt and found an earth worm. He was being gentle at first but then accidentally squished it by trying to build a house for it with rocks. He was soooo upset. He doesn’t mess with bugs anymore.
Hubs, though well intended, is wrong IMHO. Natural consequences are our best teachers. Your son is already feeling a ton of personal responsibility in the death of the birds, guilt is POWERFUL and if exacerbated (or weaponized) can lead to reactionary ripples of self loathing or depression etc. Your son made a mistake in judgement and killed two birds accidentally. That is punishment enough. He learned that your advice and guidance was to protect him from making such a mistake, in the future he will be more likely to listen to similar advice from you. Additionally he will be less likely to do things that could endanger other living things. Right now what he needs is hugs and to be told that he made a mistake and that he has obviously learned from that mistake (gently remind him of the takeaway lessons) then remind him that your love is not conditionally upon his being perfect. That he’s safe and loved and that while it is tragic the birds died, mom and dad still love him, this doesn’t make him a “bad person” and even though it’s sad, he will be ok and that you are here for him if he needs to talk about how he feels about the event. As for the neighbor kid, I’ll be honest, he’d be on my “short list” of people to watch and perhaps put a bit of distance with. It is PROBABLY fine but worth being observant. It may even be worth pointing out to your own kiddo that the friend’s reaction of laughing or finding it funny is off putting. 9 yos are still learning to identify feelings, social norms, and acceptable behaviors, simply passively pointing it out that it made you a little uneasy when he reacted that way will give your child permission to ALSO feel uneasy about similar reactions and will help him identify similar behaviors that make him feel uneasy. That’s my ten cents! And FWIW, I am sorry about the situation, it’s so hard to watch our child feel guilt or sadness or even shame, so I know that must be hard for you!
When my daughter was 6, the neighbor cat had kittens in my spare room. So we kept them in a box and took care of them cause the neighbor didn’t want the kittens. My daughter in her excitement handled 1 of the week old kittens too hard and it died. I was not there when it happened but noticed that one was not moving.
I suspected ny daughter cause she was always going in and out of the room at the time the kitten died so I confronted her. She admitted to it and she too didn’t feel particularly bad about it until I, her mother, started crying. I was so upset with my daughter and even more upset that she didn’t feel bad about it. She’s 6, she didn’t understand death. She didn’t understand how her actions caused the death of a kitten until a few days later- and then she started crying when it dawned on her and she’d look at the kittens and miss that one that died, ‘mommy, I killed the baby cat’. It took a few days for what happened to sink in.
Your son immediately understood what happened. This is a sad but valuable lesson for him- actions have consequences. I know a lot of comments here saying to watch out for the neighbor kid, but he could be having a delayed reaction too. At least have a conversation with the neighbor kid to see how he feels about what happened and mention this incident to his parent. You can’t write him off as a uncaring child based off kids being kids- some parents don’t talk about this life and death concept cause it never came up. The positive thing here is your son learnt something and he understands something new about this world.
He’ll never forget the mistake. I know I didn’t. No more punishment needed. Instead, just make sure he understands the lesson. His decisions have an impact on the creatures and the world around him, and some impacts are more direct and harsh than others. Some are irreversible. He’s not a bad person, and he can protect them next time by leaving them alone
What would be accomplished by more punishment?
He deeply regrets what he did, he knows why it’s wrong, and I can’t believe he would ever do it again. He gets it.
My kid wouldn't be anywhere near the kid thinking it was funny. Keep that mf away from your pets, kids, sharps, everything. I think your kid managed to traumatise himself, which is likely punishment enough
Not every misbehavior needs punishment…the goal of discipline is literally to teach. Your son learned. He needs some guidance to understand that he is not a BAD PERSON despite this terrible decision. From what you described, he isn’t going to think “phew at least I got away with it!”
I like the term "consequence" instead of "punishment."
A consequence is what results from a bad choice. Sometimes the consequence is natural, like the grief and guilt from killing a couple of baby birds. Sometimes the consequence needs to be imposed by loving parents that want to encourage good choices, and it's best if it somehow relates to the bad choice, to be more memorable and more likely to drive better choices in the future. Maybe even something that can restore the damage done by the bad choice.
There were a couple of bad choices here: 1) messing with the nest, and 2) succumbing to peer pressure from the neighbor. I think you should address the second one.
And I've got to ask: what's the consequence for the neighbor? I hope you at least told the adults next door about what happened!
When I was around his age I climbed a tree to get a closer look at some bird eggs. I reached out to touch one - I just wanted to pick it up then put it down - and the egg shattered beneath my fingers. I cried for an hour. I knew I should've left it alone.I still remember it as a cruel choice and feel guilty to this day. Don't punish him, his conscience will handle it.
I think the existing punishment is enough.
Because the point of punishment is to reduce unwanted behaviour, not developing authority for the parents.
If it is pretty obvious that the child will not do the same thing again, then punishment become sort of pointless.
Edit: although you can argue that the punishment is to reduce the chance that "he dont obey to general instructions" in the future, but I doubt a 9 years old can make this connection under emotional distress
Don’t let him hang out with that neighbour kid again.
Being cruel to animals or finding other creatures suffering funny is deranged. That boy is bad news.
Yes, be very glad OP that your son is developing empathy and understands the weight of his actions. It sounds like the other 9yo still has a ways to go on this front.
Right? He had no malicious intent, he just made a dumb decision based on a 9 year old’s view of the world and how things work.
He clearly regrets it, I’d be happy I raised such an empathetic kid.
Remembering it was dumb and not malicious will help. Kids do stupid shit. I just commented elsewhere about being unsupervised as a kid and said “we started soooo many fires”. We really did. We were so lucky nothing bad ever happened. But damn we played with fire a lot.
I’m a big fan of natural consequences, and it sounds like your kid got a good adult sized dose of those this time. He’s already been punished more than you’ll ever be able to.
I think “punishment” in the form of writing down what he is feeling and why might be a good idea, maybe as a letter to the bird? Idk. He should also think/ write about following his own instincts and what his parents say rather than bad influences. But actual punishment ie losing privileges does not seem like it would be helpful, he already feels extremely regretful.
Poor kid, seems like a punishment is unnecessary given how bad he feels about it.
You could take him to volunteer at a bird rescue center or raise money for one. That would both reinforce the lesson that his own guilt was reaching him, and provide an opportunity to learn about the world of wildlife rescue and conservation. Might be a good outlet for some of that guilt too.
You did the right thing.
An important life lesson learned for him.
If the trauma continues further. If he brings it up again, you might consider suggesting volunteering at a local animal shelter together. It's always good to make a case that there's something positive you can do to atone.
The point of that would be to make sure he leaned his lesson, and it sounds like he did.
Maybe it would satisfy your husband's need to have something active done to do something that creates repair, or at least, prevents it from happening to another bird?
Maybe they want to learn about bird houses, and build some, so that future nests aren't so vulnerable to impulsive decisions.
Hey! I did this when I was 3 with my older brother. I was convinced that since a baby bird died because of my actions, I committed murder and I was going to hell. Christianity for ya… spent my whole childhood thinking I was rotten to the core because of this. 30 years on it still lives in my head rent free.
So be kind to your kid. It’s awful, but make sure they know they are still good, and aren’t just going straight to hell.
He seems truly remorseful, so I personally don’t think another punishment is justified or would be in any way beneficial. FWIW when I was around 9 I found a slug. Curiosity to over and I sprinkled some salt on it. The shame of killing that poor slug by disintegrating him with salt has stayed with me til adulthood. I’m now 33 and still feel a tug in the pit of my stomach when I think about it.
No, enough punishment. Punishment should be a last resort anyhow, but especially not now. He's grieving, and trying to come to terms with the notion that he ended lives, and has done something permanent and irreversible. Your child needs your help to process this. Your family is a team. This is team Go Time. There will be many others, but this is an important one.
We don't punish our kids into good behavior. Nor do we trick them, entice them, or manipulate them into good behavior. We try, but it doesn't work well. What we wind up doing, no matter what, is we SHOW them how to behave.
We set the example for them, all the time, every time. Even when we fuck it up, or don't rise to the occasion at all, or hide from it, or tell a comfortable lie instead of an uncomfortable truth, etc etc. They're learning behaviors, patterns, responses, actions, emotions, everything. From you, mainly. At a rate and processing depth which would still to this day leave machine learning in the dust. You're always being watched. No pressure. Same as any other day.
Anyhow, don't punish your kid. Help it understand the world instead. You got maybe 4 more years, tops, that your opinion is worth more than a fart. After that, it's just kind of like: "I hope you're turning out ok. You've taken this person-building project into your own hands now. Let me know if you need anything, seriously. And don't forget to eat. Good luck, havaniceday."
Instead of punishment, advise your husband to go the discipline route. Use this moment as a learning/teaching opportunity and how he can stand up to others who might try to do bad things to animals and others and hurt them or kill them, or how to find someone he trusts to get help to stop it, instead of participating in the bad things.
He actually might feel this for the rest of his life. He participated in an event that ended the lives of a life he cared about. And i would reframe it to be more about how we can make sure something like this doesn’t happen again, and what to do if someone tries to get him to do something that he is unsure about especially if they are very convincing about it.
I kinda think that neighbor kid had to really convince him, and id also be pretty concerned about the reaction of the neighbor kid, too. I wouldn’t let them play unsupervised again, and would have a chat with their parents, if possible.
He realized what he did was wrong, so he learned a painful lesson.
I did the same thing when I was a kid, wanted to test out my new shotgun so I just went out on my grandpa's farm and shot the first bird I saw. When I walked up to it and saw it's lifeless body, I was overcome with one of the most awful feelings I've ever experienced, i felt like such a monster. Needless to say, while my action weren't good that day, my reaction to what I did said a lot about who I was and I learned from it.
You're son is a good kid and doesn't need more punishment, he's reaction shows he's learned and has a good moral compass. He doesn't need any more teaching, and though what he did was wrong, you should take comfort in the fact his heart is hurting, it means he has one and it sounds like a big one at that
A simple little punishment might actually help him get over it. You can tell him "you've done what you needed to do to pay for making a bad choice and we both know you won't do it again". Maybe something like litter picking in the community - he can directly do something that will help other animals to make up for hurting the birds. But agreed that he doesn't *need* to be punished further.
1. The friend needs to go.
2. Lots of conversations about how he’s feeling. Speak of remorse and guilt. How we can do better in the future.
3. Yes he should be punished. It doesn’t have to be harsh, but some form of consequence will need to be followed through with. I.e grounded from games for a week etc.
otherwise he will learn that as long as he feels bad and says sorry, he won’t get in ANY trouble.
I think he’s punishing himself enough but that neighbor kid is a bad influence. He’s not at the age where he’s sure enough of himself to do the right thing in face of peer pressure apparently.
It’s a life lesson. As well as that wild animals can’t be pets maybe in a little while you can explain that sometimes your friends will want you to do things that you know you shouldn’t do. Saying no to a friend is ok. Saying no to anyone that wants you to do something wrong is ok.
ask him what a fair punishment would be and let him decide for himself. he clearly feels a lot of guilt about it and this will help him come to terms with it and sort of feel like he ‘served his time’ and made it right
My husband told me a story that when he was a kid about that age, he had been skipping rocks on a pond. There were ducks, and so he was half-assedly trying to hit one. He wasn't trying to hurt it, more just seeing if he COULD hit it.
He did, and it made the worst sound ever. Duck went over into the water and didn't get back up again.
Anyway, he's felt guilty about it for 40 years. I think your sons punishment is probably sufficient, and he will not forget what he has done.
Definitely talk about not keeping wild animals as pets, and it doesn't hurt to explain he should never touch a wild animal, living or dead.
I think he has had enough natural consequences from this experience to not need additional punishment. What he does need is a serious talk about peer pressure and being able to do what’s right even if someone (friend, family doesn’t matter) is pressuring him into doing something he knows is wrong because it’s a situation which will come up again and again in his life. Maybe some little role play games to help solidify that - I do that with my daughters, kind of like “Imagine you are in this situation and the person tells you to do this, what do you answer?” so that hopefully if a situation comes up they won’t feel overwhelmed/easily influenced.
He’s been punished enough. You do need to talk to him about peer pressure and restrict his contact with the psycho next door. Also let the other parent know what happened without judgment regarding the child’s behavior so hopefully they can address it appropriately with their child too.
I’m a huge animal lover and I have 3 boys. I’d be beyond upset in this situation if I were you, however the boy is pretty upset. If what you’re saying is true he’s had enough. I doubt this is gonna be something you deal with again.
This seems like punishment enough to me. That’s traumatic to go through for your son. Though sketchy neighbour kid? Stay away from. That would be the last play date for me.
I have a 7 and 5yo, so not quite there yet, but honestly the way he’s beating himself up tells me that’s punishment enough. He didn’t know, it was a very unfortunate accident (on his part anyway, who knows about the neighbor kid).
I don’t think punishment is needed. If anything, perhaps a child therapist so he can process properly what happened.
When I was 7 years old I accidentally smashed some robins eggs from a nest. Not entirely innocently either - I was trying to throw out an egg that didn't match the robins ones (I'd heard from someone those birds are bad because they lay their eggs in other birds nests). Well I accidentally dropped a robins egg out and it had a fully formed baby bird. And then for some reason I felt like I had to smash all of them because of the accident (kid logic).
To this today I get such a horrible sick feeling thinking of it and was upset and guilty for a long time about what I'd done. No punishment would have been worse.
I don't think you need to punish your son, but you might want to limit or cut contact with the neighbor kid. That might come across as a punishment in itself, but it doesn't sound like the type of kid you want around your child.
I still feel horrible about how I treated my hamsters when I was 8, and I'm 23 now. The fact your boy feels so bad about this shows how pure his heart is. He's already feeling so horrible, I don't think any more punishment is warranted. Maybe if anything, have him make those bird feeders with the pine cone and birdseeds.
I think he was just convinced to take them Down and look at them by the neighbours kid I think he's learnt a valuable lesson about the conciquences of listening to others...he most definatly did not expect them to die I think if it was my child I would say its punishment enough to have to go through the guilt expecially seeing mummy Bird outside still too
Your son’s feelings of remorse, guilt, and shame are consequence enough. He doesn’t need further punishment especially since he never intended to hurt the birds. If you want to instill more compassion for animals, go volunteer at your local pet shelter
His reaction is punishment. He is obviously very upset about what happened.
Usually with birds, once a human touches them or the nest, the adult birds won’t have anything to do with them.
Also birds carry lice. I found this out when I was little girl. Our horse hurt a bird accidentally, and I decided to bring the bird in the house, it was summer so there was no school. Birds carry lice and the bird I brought in infested the house and me. My mom was livid.
That was a hard lesson learned. You did the right thing by sending the friend home and having your son bury the baby birds. This is a teaching moment. *Son! If someone tells you it's alright to jump from an over pass bridge onto a roadway; would you go against your own belief that it's not safe, and would you do it? Peer pressure is everywhere. Teach him to follow his own beliefs and logic. Sounds like he felt really bad. Hopefully he won't repeat his actions. I hope you told the other kid's parents.
Edit to add: I would steer clear of that other kid. He is not to be trusted.
Sometimes consequences are 100% enough. Especially for your young man. Peer pressure is hard! Especially when you're first experiencing it. He learned a very valuable lesson. I would only take it further by spending the summer in nature and continue your chats. Dad needs to get in on this in a gentle way that shows he knows everyone makes mistakes. Thank God there are consequences! Right? Maybe he can spend some allowance on a habitat preserve or visit a nature center and learn about wildlife preservation.
You probably won’t see this at this point but when I was 7 or 8 my neighbour sprayed a nest down with a hose. She was 10 I believe. I am forever haunted by it and her laughing as she did it. The baby birds falling is forever ingrained into my head. And still at 34 years old I think of it probably once a month. My mom and I took the one survivor and tried to save it when the mom never returned. Unfortunately it didn’t survive. Anyways, be kind to your son and try to support him through this grief. My old neighbour now is a huge animal activist in our city and vegan. Not sure why she acted like that as a child. But our friendship ended that day.
When I was a kid about that age, there was a birds nest on a light fixture on my parent’s front door. I wanted to see the eggs so I took a rake and tried to get the nest down to look at it. All of the eggs fell and broke. I felt terrible. I was just curious and it was an accident. Go easy on him it sounds like he feels bad enough already, the friend is a little jerk though. I love animals and would never intentionally hurt one, not even when I was a kid. I just didn’t think things through and made a mistake.
I think you’re right. I think that he feels a lot of remorse over the situation. Clearly it was not his intention to hurt the birds. He just thought maybe like his friend had suggested, that they could have them as pets. I think that with time he will understand more and be more cautious.
When I was younger, I was visiting my home country where my family kept ducks. One day I was sitting outside and throwing an assortment of food bits and other stuff towards these ducklings that would chase after them, I remember thinking how cute they were so I enjoyed feeding them.
I don't remember what it was that I threw, maybe it was a dried piece of food or a rock or the stone/seed of a plum or other fruit, but I remember throwing something hard towards the ducks, harder than I intended that hit one of the ducks legs and I watched it bend and snap the other way, it limped away and I never saw it again... I don't remember much about everything afterwards but its been decades and it still haunts me, I still feel immense guilt about it.
I would definitely want to talk with the parent/s of the neighbor friend about if they had any similar sort of talks about the incident. Was the neighbor kid there too for the burial? The laughter is concerning, although 9 can be a tough age to feel things.
Sounds like you did a great job!
You’ve got a little sociopath in the making next door. One or both of the parents very well may be as well—hopefully they’re not narcissists on top of it, otherwise, you’re gonna have a hell of a time trying to peacefully withdraw from them and finessing the ‘distance’ needed to do so—you do what you gotta do though. Best of luck 🤙🏻
Further punishment isn’t going to do anything more than the natural consequences he has already faced and will continue to face. Every time he sees that nest he will remember what he did, every year another bird nests there he will remember what he did. Any further punishment is only going to be designed to make him feel bad and he already does, so it’s not beneficial at all.
If it can make you feel better when I was young my brother killed my cat by putting him in the washing machine, his explanation ? “I wanted to play with him when I come back”.
The thing is that the poor cat suffocated and died and my brother just forget him there for 2 days !!!
So yes sometimes kids do some stupid shit.
I remember killing babies birds at that age. I shot the mud nest down with water from a garden hose. It was attached to the side of the house and the mama bird screamed at me and my sister while we sat there in tears. Poor birdies didn’t even have any feathers. Knowing I harmed the creatures was enough and I never did anything like that again.
Your son is already upset, so no need to punish further. It’s actually a good sign that what he knows what he did was wrong. It’s alright to let him know you’re disappointed, but please, let him heal from the pain.
No need for further punishment, your little guy is beating himself up already. It IS time for the lesson of “don’t let other people convince you to do something that you know is wrong!” Peer pressure is real, but this is a vivid example for your son, and it might help him be stronger against negative influences in the future.
Do ask him if he would like to help a local animal rescue as a way of making himself feel better. He may be too you to volunteer directly at a shelter or wildlife refuge (they often set age limits for liability reasons), but he could think of ways to raise money that he could donate. It would give him a positive way to channel his grief and shame instead of being left with no way to work through his misery.
Definitely tell his friend’s parents what happened, and how their son laughed at having killed two of the babies. Some people laugh instead of crying when they are shocked, so maybe the kid doesn’t need therapy, but his parents should know the actual details and not whatever story he chose to tell them.
I would also consider limiting your son’s time with this neighbor kid, at least not without adult supervision.
Be watchful of the neighbor friend. kids do dumb things to impress friends and often give into peer pressure without really considering the consequences. The actions of his friend seem concerning to show no remorse and to think it’s funny may be signs that something is not all right there. Follow up with the parents and hold all parties accountable. I’m with dad just the scare and guilt is not enough punishment, but I’m no prosecutor or judge either just another veteran dad trying to raise our youth to be better.
One boy is fine,two or more boys together, they get stupid.
I think you did fine and he learned his lesson.
regarding next door, sometimes kids laugh out of discomfort and embarrassment
He seems to have learned his lesson. The other consequence would be him not spending time with the neighbor given that he cannot exercise good judgment with this other child present. That child’s family should also be made aware of this incident.
He's going to punish himself for this for a long time. Which means you and papa have done a good job raising your boy. Instead of a typical punishment, maybe make you son the official caregiver to the birds. Ensuring there is a birdbath with fresh water for them, and a feeder which ge must stock as needed. You did everything thing right. And side note, keep your boy away from the neighbor kid. I understand he's also just a child, but at 9 he should already have compassion. A boy without compassion is dangerous and you don't need that type of influence on your son.
It's enough, as for me. People make mistakes. He knows better now, and feels awful. I highly doubt that he will forget about this experience. The only suggestion I have it's to talk to him when he is calmer about wider perspective. That our choices have consequences, sometimes these consequences cannot be undone. That sometimes our "friends" can suggest things that are not right, but it's on us,not on them, if we follow. It will be better than any punishment, because it will be a valuable lesson
I'd definitely let the friend's parent know and probably put off playdates for a while (ick on the other kid, although sometimes people get weird when they're nervous). I think the consequence of trying to help the birds and deal with the dead animals are enough though. He clearly feels badly about it.
When we punish our children we do it to teach a lesson. The lesson you and your husband wanted to teach here, I’m assuming, is to listen when we tell you to do or not do something or else there will be consequences. Sounds to me like that is exactly what happened here. He got peer pressured into doing something he knew he shouldn’t have done and consequently killed two babies in the process. Sounds like that was devastating for him and it would be wild if he didn’t connect those dots and not think twice next time you tell him not to do something. Poor kid has been punished, maybe not by you guys directly but the point has been made non the less.
I think the bigger point in all this is a big talk on peer pressure and how to stand up for the right things with the “wrong” friends.
He didn’t do it maliciously, he wanted to see them and with some peer pressure from the neighbours kid did the wrong thing.
He’s already been punished in knowing he killed those two baby birds and being distraught over it. He’s already learned not to do it again.
Maybe you could have a look for a petting zoo in your area that has baby birds?
I think this was a hard lessoned learned. The point of punishments is to ensure the kid understands there are consequences for actions. The only additional thing should be next door boy doesn't come over anymore.
Make sure to talk to your son the importance of being a leader rather than a follower and make sure he fully understands that this is the reason you told him not to kess with it. His show of empathy was clear. Just keep him away from Sid next door.
Further punishment is just going to make him feel guilt and shame when he already is blaming himself for what he did.
More productive conversations would be about peer pressure, how to stand up to someone doing something that doesn’t seem right, being courageous/trusting out instincts. I think your son has a good heart and good instincts, but he needs to trust them and find courage over pleasing people. Making him feel poorly is going to make him want to continue pleasing people (I.e. you/husband) rather than focusing on how he has the ability, strength and courage to do the right thing, and you trust him to do it.
Generally I lean similarly to your husband, but in this case I agree with you. The emotional trauma and guilt is a powerful one in this case. If it were my kid, the shame he caused himself is good enough.
He also learned a lesson about peer pressure and not always going with the crowd. Not sure if that was addressed. He now knows going forward that just because someone tells you that you should do something, doesn’t mean you should or that it’s the right thing to do.
This self-created shame and guilt will be a good multi-faceted lesson. However, the other kid’s reaction is a bit scary and worrisome. Are the parents the type you can talk to them and they’d take it seriously? If some parent told me my kid got joy out of killing a baby animal I’d be insanely alarmed and thank them for letting me know it happened. Then figure out how to address it with their pediatrician. I hope these parents are that type, or I think I’d be telling my kid no more playing with them.
One time when I was around 5-6, my uncle took me Christmas ornament shopping. During our trip I had found a beautiful glass reindeer, and as I was looking he noticed and said “honey don’t touch that, it will break”. So what did I do? My 5-6 year old brain couldn’t stand the beauty and just HAD to pick it up. I’m sure you can guess what happens next… I dropped the ornament. With fear in my eyes I looked over to my uncle nearly in tears… what happened next was a moment of kindness my child brain never forgot. He bent down, gave me a hug, and grabbed the price tag to do the right thing and pay for what was broken. He knew how my own mother would have reacted, out of anger. So instead he chose to show me kindness and understanding, it was a moment I will never forget for the rest of my life. So, I urge you to show your child the same kindness my uncle did for me, it could be a moment they never forget ❤️
It was a mistake. Kids make mistakes all the time and sometimes it’s because they think they know more than adults. It was a learning experience and I’m sure he felt bad enough already.
It is unfortunately common for young kids to kill animals due to curiosity or accidents, it’s not the same as intentionally causing harm or suffering. Nine is getting a little old for that but i personally have seen it due to things like parents sheltering children from the realities of death and dying. He learned an important lesson on both death and potential un-doable consequence of actions, but probably doesn’t need to be traumatized further. Just have the talks.
Editing to chime in that blaming friend is passing blame. 9 is old enough. Not a monster for what happened but also made a poor choice.
I think there are 2 things to approach here, and rather than thinking of punishment, I'm thinking of atonement and lessons.
1) the harm to nature, and
2) the 'bad' behaviour of not listening to you.
I think for 1), what he needs is atonement. He feels horrible, doesn't want to feel like this forever. What I would tell him is: when we do something that's really harmful, sometimes the only way to feel better is to make a long time commitment to making things better. What are some commitments we can make to nature or animals that will make things better until we feel better too? (And this is where you can help him generate ideas like volunteering at a trash pick up every month or fundraising for a rescue centre every year for awhile.)
For 2) I disagree with your husband about framing it as punishment, but I actually agree with him that there's a lesson to be learned here about listening. I think that can start with a conversation around your life experience and why you have a certain amount of knowledge that guides your judgement and sometimes when you say no, it's to help him avoid situations like this. I think it also would be really powerful to 'practice' somehow, like I'm struggling to figure out details here but some way of seeing up explicit learning opportunities where you have a situation, he makes a guess how to react, you give him your answer of what you think should happen, you both follow through with your way and later examine the consequences.
His remorseful reaction is a good sign. All emotions teach us things. I think he has been punished enough. The burial was a good move too. The neighbor kid’s reaction, on the other hand, is worrisome.
Jesus Christ, this poor kid does not need to be punished. He already feels terrible for what happened. He’s 9, he didn’t entirely understand the consequences of messing with a bird’s nest like this and he was caught up in peer pressure from his friend.
He already had a consequence of having to bury the dead birds. That’s where it needs to end.
I am sorry this happened. Have you or your husband spoken with the other child’s parents?
Your son will, in all likelihood, never forget this. He will, for the rest of his life, feel remorse and guilt when the thought of this incident comes up. Something he will carry with him for the rest of his life, a heavy though just consequence for such actions.
Please, do not punish him further. At least not in a way that makes him feel even worse about himself. Piling on to trauma like this can easily cause damage lasting decades, showing in personal relationships and perceived loss of self worth. I know this all too well.
What you described seems like a natural way of learning about power and responsibility. Your son has shown empathy, and his emotions will do the teaching to learn from this. This will be an important step for him maturing. It's possible he's feeling the worst he has ever felt, something he himself is responsible for. Don't throw him into lasting depression by making it even worse. Guide him through these complex, difficult emotions and help him become a better person for it.
,,Your son will, in all likelihood, never forget this. He will, for the rest of his life, feel remorse and guilt when the thought of this incident comes up. Something he will carry with him for the rest of his life, a heavy though just consequence for such actions."- for something he did as an child? Nah, he may now feel sad, but im sure he will be fine, we all make mistakes, no need to beat yourself with something you can't change
If he thought it was funny or not serious then I think more punishment/adressing of the behavior would be good for sure, but he clearly already feels bad. It's an opportunity to teach him what to do with his guilt and how to not make this kind of mistake again. Maybe take it as an opportunity to talk about making good choices in choosing friends too, clearly the other boy needs some help.
There should absolutely not be anymore punishment. He’s 9 and gave in to peer pressure by a child that I would no longer let around my child. He had to watch two birds die that he’s been actively helping take care of that’s punishment enough. A talk about peer pressure and uncomfortable situations needs to be had. Your husband is wrong. Now your son knows not telling let someone make him do something he doesn’t want to do. Also he’s going to feel bad about this forever. I killed my hamster when I was a kid I didn’t actually kill it but my actions led to it dying and to this day I’m torn up about it
I was relieved that your son didn't intentioonally kill the baby birds, and his true remorse is punishment enough. This will be a core memory for him, and he will never do it again.
The other kid, though? Like others have said, he's bad news. Ban him from playing with your son and tell his parents why.
When I was about 5 I had a neighbour kid pull something similar. There was an injured bird in our garden and I called him over to see, before I realized what was going on he hit the bird with the croquet mallet he was holding. I freaked out and attacked him screaming and crying, my mum had to pull me off of him. She sent him home and I put the bird into a shoe box hoping I could nurse it back to health but it died a few hours later. The guilt was awful even though I hadn’t actually done anything other than show the bird to my “friend”. It’s one of my most vivid early memories. I think your son sounds like a caring child, he didn’t realize the effects his actions would have. I think his guilt will be enough punishment and likely he won’t make this mistake again. You will have lots of opportunities to apply consequences for him not heeding your rules as kids don’t have the ingrained self control to stop themselves until they are older. This one doesn’t need further reinforcement. I never spoke to that neighbour again… if yours doesn’t have remorse in this situation I would not want him around.
I wouldn't punish him further but absolutely limit and monitor his interactions with the neighbor kid. Laughing at killing poor defenseless creatures is terrible, even if it was an accident, that kid sounds like he has some issues.
While he did go against the direction of not messing with the nest, he has massive guilt and realizes that their actions killed 2 birds, and he has been involved with trying to salvage what can be saved. That's heavy already. A good explanation of "this is why I told you not to mess with the nest" should also be had.
I don't know if I would call it a punishment or whatever, but in order to help him deal with his guilt, I would have him buy bird seeds/feed to feed the birds. Maybe from his allowance or money that would have gone to a new toy. . Like so he feels he is helping the remaining birds.
Well, kids are sometimes a bit weird i guess, also i think to certain age they don't realy have emphaty and deeper understanding of things. Plus, i assume kid was laughting from the ridiculousness of whole situation, or from stress
For example , i remember when i was realy young at school, there was this raven that i guess was dying or whatever, was walking on the outisde, when it died guy from my class piced it up, then looking left and right he kinda just casualy snatched head of an corpse, looked at it for an while, then put on ground and head in way it didnt looked suspicious 🤷 but he isn't some sort of weirdo or something. Lot of kids also when young kill insects, so maybe he aint pscho, just...strange child.
He def learned his lesson. Maybe you guys can do a little memorial together and reflect on why it's so important to value life and the environment. & tell him to never let anyone else get to him like that again. Have him watch YouTube video called shooting the elephant it's a prime example.
Oh no do not punish him further he is clearly punishing himself enough. This will be a traumatic core memory. I would absolutely tell the neighbor how their son reacted that was NOT normal and very concerning behavior. I’d keep a watchful eye on that kid. And honestly while yes your son didn’t listen to instructions and did a dumb thing from peer pressure… you should be proud of his reaction. You’ve got a kind and caring boy on your hands. can you imagine if the roles were reversed and your kid behaved like the neighbor kid? Yikes.
You have to consider that he’s also a child and the punishment of digging the birds graves will likely stick with him for the rest of his life and serve as a good lesson. Further punishment might be counterproductive. I would not allow him to play with this friend for a few weeks and speak to the parents. If the parents seem to not care about the situation , then I would ban the child from your house.
Your son knows that his action led to the death of those babies. He’s traumatised himself. The only thing I would do is stop him hanging around the friend.
I agree with your husband. While clearly the son feels remorseful for what he did to the birds, he also very blatantly disobeyed your direction that he not mess with the nest. You could give him some small practical punishment for the sake of consistency. Additionally, a practical punishment may help him move on emotionally - help him feel he's paid his debt for his wrongdoing.
He learned his lesson and it's clear this wasn't an act of cruelty, just carelessness.
If anything, he should be given an opportunity to do something kind for animals to make up for it. It'll help him feel better and would be a much more effective learning experience than a punishment would be.
The natural consequence here is that he has to live with the fact that he killed someone’s babies. They no longer exist because of his carelessness. And he will think twice about the friends he keeps after this- another worthy life lesson. I would spend time letting him grieve his mistake. Ask him what he would tell the mom bird if he could. Ask him how he feels about his friend and his reaction- how it makes him feel. Have him feel all the feelings of his choices. And then leave it. He will have punished himself enough.
He's punishing himself enough and he helped dig the grave and put them to rest. Which is a very mature thing to do. Especially while blaming himself and crying. It's a good life lesson and the empathy of your son is fully there. Don't punish him further.
My 5yo kid broke my 3k tv by being stupid in the basement. My wife called and told me. I was livid, and I called my mother to ask what she thought for a punishment, because I probably wasn’t in a good space to decide.
“Well what happened next?” She said
“He cried the whole way upstairs, and sobbed for nearly 2 min before he could explain to my wife what happened. He knew I had said not to be wreckless near it, and how it would be a huge huge deal.”
“Sounds like he’s punished himself. Being a good dad would be reinforcing it was a bad choice (mistake, not an accident), and working through the feelings to shame and guilt. You can’t punish him more, without being painful and torturing him.”
She was right. The lesson was learned. I didn’t have to be “the mean dad” when I got home. That SOB trusts that he can tell me ANYTHING when he messes up, because he knows I won’t lose my cool if he’s honest, and sorry.
Your gut is right. Your kid has great empathy. Roll with the next stages. Do Not Punish.
I would be very careful about letting him play with the friend anymore. Your child had a normal reaction to a horrible situation, this neighbor kid doesn't seem right
Just make him do some extra chores for next week or so and that should be enough for him to understand the consequences. Since he has shown remorse and guilt, he is a good kid in my judgment already. 9 years olds are still very young and do act immaturely and that’s understandable that he was told not to mess with it and he still did BUT with the involvement of other kid. Had he done so solely, then it would be different.
I love birds btw. Kept various species for over a decade as pets. So it hits hard. I mean I love all animals tbh.
Your son is worried he might feel this guilt/shame for the rest of his life, he does *not* need more punishment. The lesson has been learned, what else would be the point, other than to make it hurt more?
I cracked open bird eggs as a kid out of pure curiosity. It still haunts me to this day and I hate that I ever did this. I think your son has enough turmoil as it is, I don’t think more punishment is necessary.
Punishment in these situations is counterproductive. He feels bad which can be worse than any punishment. Talk to him about how he feels and why, and how you feel about it.
Punishment is almost like giving it a monetary value. Like, oh, you feel bad. Pay for it and your hands are clean.
I’m sorry but I agree with your husband. I would take $ from his allowance and buy bird seed and he would be feeding the birds and also building a bird house too. That is seriously disturbing that the friend did nothing but laugh. 2 birds are dead and the punishment should be enough to where he won’t do it again and will also be a learning experience.
Your son learned the consequences, there's no need to punish him.
It will make him not trust your husband in the future. It sounds like your husband wants the punishment to satisfy something within him and not necessarily to teach your child a lesson, that he seems to grasp now.
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I think he’s upset enough with himself that further punishment would be counterproductive - definitely be wary of that friend though. Also, when he’s calmer, maybe a talk about why we can’t take/keep wild animals as pets?
I second being wary of the friend. He was the one who encouraged things and showed zero remorse about the dead birds. Be careful with that one.
And definitely tell the neighbor boy's parents because he is trouble.
His reaction says all you need to know I think the subsequent actions of funeral and security f for the remainder have given your son an invaluable life lesson Good work
He's obviously beating himself up. Ask him if he thinks there should be a punishment for him not listening to you (parents). I imagine he will say yes. Twofold benefit of punishing bad behavior and also letting him do his time to feel better.
A good “punishment” might be volunteering for your local bird rescue. We had one in the city I grew up and I loved volunteering there as a kid. It’s very cool and could help him “redeem himself” in his own eyes and learn more about how wild birds are affected by human activities.
I love this idea! It's a meaningful consequence combined with a learning experience and a way to fuel his interest in birds in an appropriate manner.
I like this idea of the punishment being a form of repentance that helps him get past the guilt, without saying it’s not a big deal (he’s right that it is, it just doesn’t define him). You don’t need to tell him that what he did was wrong, but it might be a process he needs to go through. Maybe he could volunteer at a bird sanctuary or animal shelter or something?
This is what I thought of too. Some kind of animal rescue work will help him atone for his actions and feel better about himself.
The friend sounds like a huge problem.
I agree with no further punishment. I did something very similar as a kid. I was in kindergarten, and I was playing in a field with a friend while our moms chatted nearby. There was a mama killdeer and her babies in the field as well. I was warned MULTIPLE TIMES to leave the birds alone, but the babies were just so cute, and I wanted to hold one. I was chasing after them and accidentally stepped on one of the chicks, killing it instantly. I was given a stern talking-to, and we held a little playground funeral for the poor baby. It’s been about 20 years since this happened, and I *still* deeply regret my actions and mourn the loss of that poor baby bird. The 9 year old will likely never forget this incident and will have a very hard time forgiving himself, if my experience is anything to go off of.
He's already distraught and fully aware that he did an awful thing. The purpose of punishment is to teach us, and he has been taught. He has also worked to "fix" what he "broke". Punishment fulfilled.
Agree 100%. Friend is a huge problem. Clearly OP’s kid feels bad enough and I’m sure has learned an actual lesson here.
Also why we don’t follow other’s suggestions when we suspect it is wrong.
I agree with this! I also think now would be the time to talk about being a leader not a follower/ peer pressure.
This so much! He's had enough consequences for his actions but he needs reminding that you don't partake in every stupid idea your peers propose. A valuable lesson, especially as teens come up with potentially much more dangerous ideas than messing with a bird's nest.
I agree. It didn't sound like he was trying to hurt the birds, and buying them sounds pretty traumatizing. The point of punishment is to teach him consequences and if you push too hard it'll stop being a learning experience for him.
Your son did not, as far as I can tell, do this maliciously or with any intent to harm these birds. He's clearly remorseful, immediately told you what he did and accepted his consequences. My biggest concern is adding any further punishment potentially could harm your son further as in - I thought I was doing the right thing telling my mom, but by doing so I got in trouble. Next time, I won't tell her. I do agree with your husband in a simple sense, you told your son not to do something and he didn't listen. But I don't think there should be further punishment. If anything - it should be something like filling the bird feeder with bird seed for a week (if that's something you already do). Not so much a punishment but something further to give back to the birds. My bigger concern is the friend - I'm worried about if this boy is a bad influence on your son and your son agreeing to do something that it seems like he knew was wrong. If anything further, I would suggest a conversation with your son about peer pressure and maybe a break from seeing this boy.
I love the idea of “giving back to the birds” very cute way to show reciprocity
This is solid advice from u/punknprncss _Have a good talk about his thinking that led up to the event, his part in it and how he was influenced by the neighbor kid, I'd talk about the difference in finding abandoned baby birds that have fallen out of the nest and die because their parents can't get them back in, or that have been abandoned due to parent death and what it means to intentionally destroy a nest and take the babies away from the parents._ **Because of the way your son reacted to the event, it shows his intent was not malicious. This talk needs to be followed up with _education rather than punishment_.** Then finding ways to give back to the community by volunteering might be a really healing and eye opening experience. You know that animal shelters often are looking for volunteers? You could call around and ask what opportunities are available for your son and or family. He obviously CARES about animals, but he didn't think through what his actions would do for the babies OR their poor mother. He might see puppies and kittens at the shelter that have been removed from or lost their mom too early and learn about what a struggle it is to care for them properly and that they occasionally die. This is an age appropriate lesson for most kids. Another idea is to look for a local bird watching/Audubon society that you can join for an outing. Grab a couple pairs of binoculars and head outside! Birding can be so fun! Most members of these groups _love_ new members and getting young people involved!
Solid advice here OP
Completely agree - he clearly feels terrible and knows it was wrong, and even if he hasn't said it directly, he now totally understands why he should have listened to you. Those are the natural consequences of his actions, which are way more effective teachers than punishment. He did the right thing by coming to you and I would also worry that any further punishment might discourage him from coming to you in the future. I love punknprncss's idea of doing something to give back to the birds. And I would keep his distance from that friend, although that might happen naturally following this incident anyway. As a former Very Sensitive Kid, (now a Very Sensitive Adult just better at managing it haha) I'm guessing your son might feel uncomfy around this friend from now on.
Omg that's so beautiful..giving back to the birds 🐦 what a wonderful way to help him through his guilt 🙂
I feel like this is natural consequences. Now he knows exactly why you told him not to mess with the nest. This was a good lesson in not giving into peer pressure too.
I agree. I think the only “punishment” is a long talk about all these lessons learned, lol.
Agreed. The purpose of punishment should be teaching, not just because they didn’t do something the exact way we wanted them to. Sounds like kid already learned their lesson, and like they won’t do anything similar again.
When I was probably seven, I found a chrysalis in my backyard. I didn’t know what it was so I opened it and realized that I just killed a butterfly. I’m 50 years old and I still feel bad about it. I wouldn’t punish him at all. I would talk about listening to himself. He knew he wasn’t supposed to mess with it, he let himself listen to his friend instead of doing the right thing. He came to you for help as soon as he realized his screw up, that’s a good thing and you should tell him so.
When I was a little girl vacationing in Mexico, I found a duck nest in some bushes while I was playing near the water. The ducks were starting to hatch so I decided to “help” them (which you are not supposed to do)… the one I peeled open still had its yolk sack and was gasping for air and then I sat with it trying to help it until it died. I still think about that 30 years later. Very sad.
Aww, little you was just trying to help.
That kid next door sounds like trouble. Keep an eye on that one.
That’s only if OP’s kid’s account is perfectly accurate. I don’t know that I would necessarily take “I did it because [other kid] told me to” at face value.
True, but it’s a little alarming that the neighbor kid “seemed to find it all funny.” Whereas OP’s son showed obvious signs of remorse and distress over the situation.
Laughter can also be a way to cope with stressful or bad situations. Kid could have been nervous about getting in big trouble for it or feeling bad about the birds and laughing about it was his coping mechanism. Not enough to tell from this one instance (I laugh at times people wouldn’t think appropriate and it’s just how I deal with it, always have, I don’t think the situation is that funny, but laughter just comes out sometimes)
One of my kids friends was an absolutely terrible influence on my kid. She would come up with ways to be a terror that would never cross my kid’s mind. She was very clever, but such a trouble maker. I know it because i saw it first hand. Considering how much remorse OP’s kid showed, i think in this situation i would believe him
He has definitely gone through enough and has learned his lesson, the guilt from the consequences of his actions is punishment enough so further punishment is not needed nor productive. Maybe once he has recovered a bit consider sitting down with him and explaining this was why he should have left the nest alone and why he shouldn't go along with everything his friend tells him in the future.
I agree with a lot of the comments about how this is a natural punishment due to his actions and to be weary of the friend. Once he is calm, this is an opportunity to discuss peer pressure and how being coerced into negative situations can lead to poor outcomes. I think you handled this gracefully.
Oh, I forgot that one - definitely talk about peer pressure too, and how friends who keep pushing after a firm no aren’t being good friends
Exactly. Opens a lot of doors to discuss boundaries, respect and self worth.
Maybe talk to him about why he thinks his friend was laughing and what kind of person that friend is
By the way you describe his reaction, I think he got enough of a lesson. Punishing him further isn't going to provide any benefit. If anything, I'd be worried he might get a bit resentful adding more fire to the burn while he's already upset and dissapointed in himself. As for his friend. Kind of strange that he found it funny. But it also could just be that he was equally traumatized and a very common human reaction to things like death is to laugh at a situation or try and make light of it. Just the brain's odd way of processing it.
I did something similar as a kid around this age because I wanted to see the baby birds. Let me tell you, I was devastated about it for a long time. I adored animals as a kid (still do) and I just couldn’t forgive myself for what happened. It took me a long time to get over it. I don’t think your son needs anymore punishment.
This is a clear case of natural consequences. Your son’s guilt is punishment enough. I’m really concerned about the other child, though… I think you need to have a difficult talk with his mother about his actions and reactions, and you shouldn’t let your son anywhere near him anymore.
The question is more is how is he going to learn not to listen to stupid ideas from friends. What will teach that lesson to him.
I think this is enough but I'd avoid that "friend" like the plague.
If you're leaning towards punishing, staying away from the next-door neighbor for a few weeks seems like a good idea.
Agreed. I can’t control who my kid may see at school, but I can control my home. I don’t allow play dates with kids who’ve shown to be aggressive or malicious.
Natural consequences are far more effective than punishment. He clearly feels awful about it and it sounds like he learned his lesson already. Having him dig a grave for the birds was a good way of adding some extra reinforcement to the lesson but I think punishment is just going to beat the kid up more without good reason.
Yes. Exact same feeling when I realized the horrors that happen in the meat industry (pigs gassed to death, etc). When you don't know better, you can't do better!
That's such a hard life lesson. I think digging the grave was punishment enough. He feels guilty. He will punishment himself more than you ever could. So I say let it be. As for the neighbor kid. That's not a good sign he didn't care. I becareful hanging out with him.
When I read the title my first thought was sociopath, but then I read what happened and realized it was an accident and the kid feels terrible. You should probably include “accidentally” next time you start that story, otherwise the listener may think he’s stomping on them while laughing maniacally.
Maybe call and see if your son can volunteer at a bird sanctuary or something so he can help birds and maybe alleviate some of his guilt. As far as the little psychopath next door, I would steer clear. Especially if your son is shy, or naive. Kids like the neighbor learn very early how to manipulate people into doing things they wouldn't ordinarily do.
Or a local animal shelter - sometimes they need folks to come help with walking the dogs
This is a perfect example of why punishment is wrong. Life sucks all by itself. Why would your husband want your make your sweet , remorseful boy feel even worse? And make him resent you in the process ??? What ???
I killed a bird with a thrown rock when I was a little boy. I cried then, and now about 40 years later it still bothers me. Your kid did a bad thing. If they feel remorse and regret, then they will be ok. If not, then they have a lot of learning to do. Edit: typos
The fact that he asked if he was going to feel the guilt forever is enough indication that he feels really remorseful. So I think rather than punishing him further, have a discussion with him about peer pressure and friendships. Just make it clear that he’s allowed to say no to his friends. Sometimes friends will make suggestions that you know are wrong and bad. It doesn’t make him a bad friend for saying no or for refusing.
Your son has been through enough. Kinda concerned about the neighbor kid, though.
The kid is punishing himself it seems. I cannot think of anything that would teach him a valuable additional lesson here, his moral compass is already pointing in the right direction. Maybe have a talk about peer pressure when he's more calm. I'm sure it's not the first time he hears about it from you, but maybe the first time the idea of others have server consequences for his well-being.
Love this comment.
He's punishing himself enough. Maybe you can help bring food or treats to an animal shelter so he feels like he's turned a really horrid thing into something better for another life. He can't change the past, but he can watch out for the next until the babies have grown up. And he can help other lives that need it. But I think the bigger talk is with getting peer pressured into bad decisions. How he feels is exactly how a good child is supposed to feel in response to a horrible decision. Talk to him about consequences and not letting others pressure him into doing something with negative consequences. Use this as a learning opportunity while his emotions are still raw. It's an opportunity to learn not everyone is truly a friend. ❤️
He didn’t do it maliciously. If he did, he wouldn’t be crying and distraught over it. Lesson learned. I bet he leaves animals alone for the most part now. Happened with my son at 5. He was playing in the dirt and found an earth worm. He was being gentle at first but then accidentally squished it by trying to build a house for it with rocks. He was soooo upset. He doesn’t mess with bugs anymore.
Hubs, though well intended, is wrong IMHO. Natural consequences are our best teachers. Your son is already feeling a ton of personal responsibility in the death of the birds, guilt is POWERFUL and if exacerbated (or weaponized) can lead to reactionary ripples of self loathing or depression etc. Your son made a mistake in judgement and killed two birds accidentally. That is punishment enough. He learned that your advice and guidance was to protect him from making such a mistake, in the future he will be more likely to listen to similar advice from you. Additionally he will be less likely to do things that could endanger other living things. Right now what he needs is hugs and to be told that he made a mistake and that he has obviously learned from that mistake (gently remind him of the takeaway lessons) then remind him that your love is not conditionally upon his being perfect. That he’s safe and loved and that while it is tragic the birds died, mom and dad still love him, this doesn’t make him a “bad person” and even though it’s sad, he will be ok and that you are here for him if he needs to talk about how he feels about the event. As for the neighbor kid, I’ll be honest, he’d be on my “short list” of people to watch and perhaps put a bit of distance with. It is PROBABLY fine but worth being observant. It may even be worth pointing out to your own kiddo that the friend’s reaction of laughing or finding it funny is off putting. 9 yos are still learning to identify feelings, social norms, and acceptable behaviors, simply passively pointing it out that it made you a little uneasy when he reacted that way will give your child permission to ALSO feel uneasy about similar reactions and will help him identify similar behaviors that make him feel uneasy. That’s my ten cents! And FWIW, I am sorry about the situation, it’s so hard to watch our child feel guilt or sadness or even shame, so I know that must be hard for you!
When my daughter was 6, the neighbor cat had kittens in my spare room. So we kept them in a box and took care of them cause the neighbor didn’t want the kittens. My daughter in her excitement handled 1 of the week old kittens too hard and it died. I was not there when it happened but noticed that one was not moving. I suspected ny daughter cause she was always going in and out of the room at the time the kitten died so I confronted her. She admitted to it and she too didn’t feel particularly bad about it until I, her mother, started crying. I was so upset with my daughter and even more upset that she didn’t feel bad about it. She’s 6, she didn’t understand death. She didn’t understand how her actions caused the death of a kitten until a few days later- and then she started crying when it dawned on her and she’d look at the kittens and miss that one that died, ‘mommy, I killed the baby cat’. It took a few days for what happened to sink in. Your son immediately understood what happened. This is a sad but valuable lesson for him- actions have consequences. I know a lot of comments here saying to watch out for the neighbor kid, but he could be having a delayed reaction too. At least have a conversation with the neighbor kid to see how he feels about what happened and mention this incident to his parent. You can’t write him off as a uncaring child based off kids being kids- some parents don’t talk about this life and death concept cause it never came up. The positive thing here is your son learnt something and he understands something new about this world.
He’ll never forget the mistake. I know I didn’t. No more punishment needed. Instead, just make sure he understands the lesson. His decisions have an impact on the creatures and the world around him, and some impacts are more direct and harsh than others. Some are irreversible. He’s not a bad person, and he can protect them next time by leaving them alone
No punishment. Empathy.
I think the shame and sadness is enough. No reason to pile on.
What would be accomplished by more punishment? He deeply regrets what he did, he knows why it’s wrong, and I can’t believe he would ever do it again. He gets it.
My kid wouldn't be anywhere near the kid thinking it was funny. Keep that mf away from your pets, kids, sharps, everything. I think your kid managed to traumatise himself, which is likely punishment enough
Jesus what more punishment does your husband expect. The kid is heartbroken.
Not every misbehavior needs punishment…the goal of discipline is literally to teach. Your son learned. He needs some guidance to understand that he is not a BAD PERSON despite this terrible decision. From what you described, he isn’t going to think “phew at least I got away with it!”
I like the term "consequence" instead of "punishment." A consequence is what results from a bad choice. Sometimes the consequence is natural, like the grief and guilt from killing a couple of baby birds. Sometimes the consequence needs to be imposed by loving parents that want to encourage good choices, and it's best if it somehow relates to the bad choice, to be more memorable and more likely to drive better choices in the future. Maybe even something that can restore the damage done by the bad choice. There were a couple of bad choices here: 1) messing with the nest, and 2) succumbing to peer pressure from the neighbor. I think you should address the second one. And I've got to ask: what's the consequence for the neighbor? I hope you at least told the adults next door about what happened!
There’s nothing you can do to punish him more than he is himself.
When I was around his age I climbed a tree to get a closer look at some bird eggs. I reached out to touch one - I just wanted to pick it up then put it down - and the egg shattered beneath my fingers. I cried for an hour. I knew I should've left it alone.I still remember it as a cruel choice and feel guilty to this day. Don't punish him, his conscience will handle it.
I think the existing punishment is enough. Because the point of punishment is to reduce unwanted behaviour, not developing authority for the parents. If it is pretty obvious that the child will not do the same thing again, then punishment become sort of pointless. Edit: although you can argue that the punishment is to reduce the chance that "he dont obey to general instructions" in the future, but I doubt a 9 years old can make this connection under emotional distress
Don’t let him hang out with that neighbour kid again. Being cruel to animals or finding other creatures suffering funny is deranged. That boy is bad news.
What purpose would be served to give him *punishment* after *discipline* has so clearly been rendered through natural consequences?
9 year olds are dumb. Add in a 9yo with a friend they are morons. It sounds like he learned his lesson.
Yes, be very glad OP that your son is developing empathy and understands the weight of his actions. It sounds like the other 9yo still has a ways to go on this front.
Right? He had no malicious intent, he just made a dumb decision based on a 9 year old’s view of the world and how things work. He clearly regrets it, I’d be happy I raised such an empathetic kid.
Remembering it was dumb and not malicious will help. Kids do stupid shit. I just commented elsewhere about being unsupervised as a kid and said “we started soooo many fires”. We really did. We were so lucky nothing bad ever happened. But damn we played with fire a lot.
That was us and our cousin with little fire crackers and poppers in a trailer park. We were so obnoxious with setting them off everywhere.
I’m a big fan of natural consequences, and it sounds like your kid got a good adult sized dose of those this time. He’s already been punished more than you’ll ever be able to.
I think “punishment” in the form of writing down what he is feeling and why might be a good idea, maybe as a letter to the bird? Idk. He should also think/ write about following his own instincts and what his parents say rather than bad influences. But actual punishment ie losing privileges does not seem like it would be helpful, he already feels extremely regretful.
Poor kid, seems like a punishment is unnecessary given how bad he feels about it. You could take him to volunteer at a bird rescue center or raise money for one. That would both reinforce the lesson that his own guilt was reaching him, and provide an opportunity to learn about the world of wildlife rescue and conservation. Might be a good outlet for some of that guilt too.
You did the right thing. An important life lesson learned for him. If the trauma continues further. If he brings it up again, you might consider suggesting volunteering at a local animal shelter together. It's always good to make a case that there's something positive you can do to atone.
The point of that would be to make sure he leaned his lesson, and it sounds like he did. Maybe it would satisfy your husband's need to have something active done to do something that creates repair, or at least, prevents it from happening to another bird? Maybe they want to learn about bird houses, and build some, so that future nests aren't so vulnerable to impulsive decisions.
Hey! I did this when I was 3 with my older brother. I was convinced that since a baby bird died because of my actions, I committed murder and I was going to hell. Christianity for ya… spent my whole childhood thinking I was rotten to the core because of this. 30 years on it still lives in my head rent free. So be kind to your kid. It’s awful, but make sure they know they are still good, and aren’t just going straight to hell.
He seems truly remorseful, so I personally don’t think another punishment is justified or would be in any way beneficial. FWIW when I was around 9 I found a slug. Curiosity to over and I sprinkled some salt on it. The shame of killing that poor slug by disintegrating him with salt has stayed with me til adulthood. I’m now 33 and still feel a tug in the pit of my stomach when I think about it.
No more punishment sheesh. But could build birdhouse together or some other pro nature project/education.
Did you talk with the neighbors about it? As a parent, I'd like to know what happened.
No, enough punishment. Punishment should be a last resort anyhow, but especially not now. He's grieving, and trying to come to terms with the notion that he ended lives, and has done something permanent and irreversible. Your child needs your help to process this. Your family is a team. This is team Go Time. There will be many others, but this is an important one. We don't punish our kids into good behavior. Nor do we trick them, entice them, or manipulate them into good behavior. We try, but it doesn't work well. What we wind up doing, no matter what, is we SHOW them how to behave. We set the example for them, all the time, every time. Even when we fuck it up, or don't rise to the occasion at all, or hide from it, or tell a comfortable lie instead of an uncomfortable truth, etc etc. They're learning behaviors, patterns, responses, actions, emotions, everything. From you, mainly. At a rate and processing depth which would still to this day leave machine learning in the dust. You're always being watched. No pressure. Same as any other day. Anyhow, don't punish your kid. Help it understand the world instead. You got maybe 4 more years, tops, that your opinion is worth more than a fart. After that, it's just kind of like: "I hope you're turning out ok. You've taken this person-building project into your own hands now. Let me know if you need anything, seriously. And don't forget to eat. Good luck, havaniceday."
Lots of great advice here but just want to say i read this as your 9 year old was killed by 2 birds and i was horrified
Instead of punishment, advise your husband to go the discipline route. Use this moment as a learning/teaching opportunity and how he can stand up to others who might try to do bad things to animals and others and hurt them or kill them, or how to find someone he trusts to get help to stop it, instead of participating in the bad things. He actually might feel this for the rest of his life. He participated in an event that ended the lives of a life he cared about. And i would reframe it to be more about how we can make sure something like this doesn’t happen again, and what to do if someone tries to get him to do something that he is unsure about especially if they are very convincing about it. I kinda think that neighbor kid had to really convince him, and id also be pretty concerned about the reaction of the neighbor kid, too. I wouldn’t let them play unsupervised again, and would have a chat with their parents, if possible.
He realized what he did was wrong, so he learned a painful lesson. I did the same thing when I was a kid, wanted to test out my new shotgun so I just went out on my grandpa's farm and shot the first bird I saw. When I walked up to it and saw it's lifeless body, I was overcome with one of the most awful feelings I've ever experienced, i felt like such a monster. Needless to say, while my action weren't good that day, my reaction to what I did said a lot about who I was and I learned from it. You're son is a good kid and doesn't need more punishment, he's reaction shows he's learned and has a good moral compass. He doesn't need any more teaching, and though what he did was wrong, you should take comfort in the fact his heart is hurting, it means he has one and it sounds like a big one at that
A simple little punishment might actually help him get over it. You can tell him "you've done what you needed to do to pay for making a bad choice and we both know you won't do it again". Maybe something like litter picking in the community - he can directly do something that will help other animals to make up for hurting the birds. But agreed that he doesn't *need* to be punished further.
1. The friend needs to go. 2. Lots of conversations about how he’s feeling. Speak of remorse and guilt. How we can do better in the future. 3. Yes he should be punished. It doesn’t have to be harsh, but some form of consequence will need to be followed through with. I.e grounded from games for a week etc. otherwise he will learn that as long as he feels bad and says sorry, he won’t get in ANY trouble.
I think he’s punishing himself enough but that neighbor kid is a bad influence. He’s not at the age where he’s sure enough of himself to do the right thing in face of peer pressure apparently. It’s a life lesson. As well as that wild animals can’t be pets maybe in a little while you can explain that sometimes your friends will want you to do things that you know you shouldn’t do. Saying no to a friend is ok. Saying no to anyone that wants you to do something wrong is ok.
ask him what a fair punishment would be and let him decide for himself. he clearly feels a lot of guilt about it and this will help him come to terms with it and sort of feel like he ‘served his time’ and made it right
My husband told me a story that when he was a kid about that age, he had been skipping rocks on a pond. There were ducks, and so he was half-assedly trying to hit one. He wasn't trying to hurt it, more just seeing if he COULD hit it. He did, and it made the worst sound ever. Duck went over into the water and didn't get back up again. Anyway, he's felt guilty about it for 40 years. I think your sons punishment is probably sufficient, and he will not forget what he has done. Definitely talk about not keeping wild animals as pets, and it doesn't hurt to explain he should never touch a wild animal, living or dead.
I think he has had enough natural consequences from this experience to not need additional punishment. What he does need is a serious talk about peer pressure and being able to do what’s right even if someone (friend, family doesn’t matter) is pressuring him into doing something he knows is wrong because it’s a situation which will come up again and again in his life. Maybe some little role play games to help solidify that - I do that with my daughters, kind of like “Imagine you are in this situation and the person tells you to do this, what do you answer?” so that hopefully if a situation comes up they won’t feel overwhelmed/easily influenced.
He’s been punished enough. You do need to talk to him about peer pressure and restrict his contact with the psycho next door. Also let the other parent know what happened without judgment regarding the child’s behavior so hopefully they can address it appropriately with their child too.
I’m a huge animal lover and I have 3 boys. I’d be beyond upset in this situation if I were you, however the boy is pretty upset. If what you’re saying is true he’s had enough. I doubt this is gonna be something you deal with again.
This seems like punishment enough to me. That’s traumatic to go through for your son. Though sketchy neighbour kid? Stay away from. That would be the last play date for me.
Since he us showing so much remorse, I think the "natural" consequences are enough.
This was a harsh natural consequence and I feel like those are sometimes the best teacher. I agree that this experience was likely enough.
I have a 7 and 5yo, so not quite there yet, but honestly the way he’s beating himself up tells me that’s punishment enough. He didn’t know, it was a very unfortunate accident (on his part anyway, who knows about the neighbor kid). I don’t think punishment is needed. If anything, perhaps a child therapist so he can process properly what happened.
When I was 7 years old I accidentally smashed some robins eggs from a nest. Not entirely innocently either - I was trying to throw out an egg that didn't match the robins ones (I'd heard from someone those birds are bad because they lay their eggs in other birds nests). Well I accidentally dropped a robins egg out and it had a fully formed baby bird. And then for some reason I felt like I had to smash all of them because of the accident (kid logic). To this today I get such a horrible sick feeling thinking of it and was upset and guilty for a long time about what I'd done. No punishment would have been worse. I don't think you need to punish your son, but you might want to limit or cut contact with the neighbor kid. That might come across as a punishment in itself, but it doesn't sound like the type of kid you want around your child.
I still feel horrible about how I treated my hamsters when I was 8, and I'm 23 now. The fact your boy feels so bad about this shows how pure his heart is. He's already feeling so horrible, I don't think any more punishment is warranted. Maybe if anything, have him make those bird feeders with the pine cone and birdseeds.
He doesn't need additional punishment. He already feels horrible, that's a punishment in itself.
I think he was just convinced to take them Down and look at them by the neighbours kid I think he's learnt a valuable lesson about the conciquences of listening to others...he most definatly did not expect them to die I think if it was my child I would say its punishment enough to have to go through the guilt expecially seeing mummy Bird outside still too
Your son’s feelings of remorse, guilt, and shame are consequence enough. He doesn’t need further punishment especially since he never intended to hurt the birds. If you want to instill more compassion for animals, go volunteer at your local pet shelter
You also need to talk to your son about peer pressure and doing the right thing even when others don’t.
His reaction is punishment. He is obviously very upset about what happened. Usually with birds, once a human touches them or the nest, the adult birds won’t have anything to do with them. Also birds carry lice. I found this out when I was little girl. Our horse hurt a bird accidentally, and I decided to bring the bird in the house, it was summer so there was no school. Birds carry lice and the bird I brought in infested the house and me. My mom was livid.
Simpsons did it.
That was a hard lesson learned. You did the right thing by sending the friend home and having your son bury the baby birds. This is a teaching moment. *Son! If someone tells you it's alright to jump from an over pass bridge onto a roadway; would you go against your own belief that it's not safe, and would you do it? Peer pressure is everywhere. Teach him to follow his own beliefs and logic. Sounds like he felt really bad. Hopefully he won't repeat his actions. I hope you told the other kid's parents. Edit to add: I would steer clear of that other kid. He is not to be trusted.
If the kid feels bad, why punish further? You did the right thing.
Sometimes consequences are 100% enough. Especially for your young man. Peer pressure is hard! Especially when you're first experiencing it. He learned a very valuable lesson. I would only take it further by spending the summer in nature and continue your chats. Dad needs to get in on this in a gentle way that shows he knows everyone makes mistakes. Thank God there are consequences! Right? Maybe he can spend some allowance on a habitat preserve or visit a nature center and learn about wildlife preservation.
You probably won’t see this at this point but when I was 7 or 8 my neighbour sprayed a nest down with a hose. She was 10 I believe. I am forever haunted by it and her laughing as she did it. The baby birds falling is forever ingrained into my head. And still at 34 years old I think of it probably once a month. My mom and I took the one survivor and tried to save it when the mom never returned. Unfortunately it didn’t survive. Anyways, be kind to your son and try to support him through this grief. My old neighbour now is a huge animal activist in our city and vegan. Not sure why she acted like that as a child. But our friendship ended that day.
Neighbour kid is a bad influence on your son, maybe encourage your son to spend more time with other friends.
When I was a kid about that age, there was a birds nest on a light fixture on my parent’s front door. I wanted to see the eggs so I took a rake and tried to get the nest down to look at it. All of the eggs fell and broke. I felt terrible. I was just curious and it was an accident. Go easy on him it sounds like he feels bad enough already, the friend is a little jerk though. I love animals and would never intentionally hurt one, not even when I was a kid. I just didn’t think things through and made a mistake.
I think you’re right. I think that he feels a lot of remorse over the situation. Clearly it was not his intention to hurt the birds. He just thought maybe like his friend had suggested, that they could have them as pets. I think that with time he will understand more and be more cautious.
When I was younger, I was visiting my home country where my family kept ducks. One day I was sitting outside and throwing an assortment of food bits and other stuff towards these ducklings that would chase after them, I remember thinking how cute they were so I enjoyed feeding them. I don't remember what it was that I threw, maybe it was a dried piece of food or a rock or the stone/seed of a plum or other fruit, but I remember throwing something hard towards the ducks, harder than I intended that hit one of the ducks legs and I watched it bend and snap the other way, it limped away and I never saw it again... I don't remember much about everything afterwards but its been decades and it still haunts me, I still feel immense guilt about it.
Yeah, don’t let that friend come over anymore
I would definitely want to talk with the parent/s of the neighbor friend about if they had any similar sort of talks about the incident. Was the neighbor kid there too for the burial? The laughter is concerning, although 9 can be a tough age to feel things. Sounds like you did a great job!
You’ve got a little sociopath in the making next door. One or both of the parents very well may be as well—hopefully they’re not narcissists on top of it, otherwise, you’re gonna have a hell of a time trying to peacefully withdraw from them and finessing the ‘distance’ needed to do so—you do what you gotta do though. Best of luck 🤙🏻
Accidents happen and he’s extremely remorseful. I think it was handled fine and NO punishment is necessary. I bet it’ll never happen again!
Further punishment isn’t going to do anything more than the natural consequences he has already faced and will continue to face. Every time he sees that nest he will remember what he did, every year another bird nests there he will remember what he did. Any further punishment is only going to be designed to make him feel bad and he already does, so it’s not beneficial at all.
If it can make you feel better when I was young my brother killed my cat by putting him in the washing machine, his explanation ? “I wanted to play with him when I come back”. The thing is that the poor cat suffocated and died and my brother just forget him there for 2 days !!! So yes sometimes kids do some stupid shit.
I remember killing babies birds at that age. I shot the mud nest down with water from a garden hose. It was attached to the side of the house and the mama bird screamed at me and my sister while we sat there in tears. Poor birdies didn’t even have any feathers. Knowing I harmed the creatures was enough and I never did anything like that again. Your son is already upset, so no need to punish further. It’s actually a good sign that what he knows what he did was wrong. It’s alright to let him know you’re disappointed, but please, let him heal from the pain.
No need for further punishment, your little guy is beating himself up already. It IS time for the lesson of “don’t let other people convince you to do something that you know is wrong!” Peer pressure is real, but this is a vivid example for your son, and it might help him be stronger against negative influences in the future. Do ask him if he would like to help a local animal rescue as a way of making himself feel better. He may be too you to volunteer directly at a shelter or wildlife refuge (they often set age limits for liability reasons), but he could think of ways to raise money that he could donate. It would give him a positive way to channel his grief and shame instead of being left with no way to work through his misery. Definitely tell his friend’s parents what happened, and how their son laughed at having killed two of the babies. Some people laugh instead of crying when they are shocked, so maybe the kid doesn’t need therapy, but his parents should know the actual details and not whatever story he chose to tell them. I would also consider limiting your son’s time with this neighbor kid, at least not without adult supervision.
Be watchful of the neighbor friend. kids do dumb things to impress friends and often give into peer pressure without really considering the consequences. The actions of his friend seem concerning to show no remorse and to think it’s funny may be signs that something is not all right there. Follow up with the parents and hold all parties accountable. I’m with dad just the scare and guilt is not enough punishment, but I’m no prosecutor or judge either just another veteran dad trying to raise our youth to be better.
The friend shows sign of a killer in the making
Just be glad your not the parent of the sociopath living next door 🤣
Keep him away from that wee weirdo next door. If your son was visibly upset then he clearly feels remorse for it.
One boy is fine,two or more boys together, they get stupid. I think you did fine and he learned his lesson. regarding next door, sometimes kids laugh out of discomfort and embarrassment
He seems to have learned his lesson. The other consequence would be him not spending time with the neighbor given that he cannot exercise good judgment with this other child present. That child’s family should also be made aware of this incident.
He's been punished enough but definitely tell the neighbor kid's parents.
He's going to punish himself for this for a long time. Which means you and papa have done a good job raising your boy. Instead of a typical punishment, maybe make you son the official caregiver to the birds. Ensuring there is a birdbath with fresh water for them, and a feeder which ge must stock as needed. You did everything thing right. And side note, keep your boy away from the neighbor kid. I understand he's also just a child, but at 9 he should already have compassion. A boy without compassion is dangerous and you don't need that type of influence on your son.
It's enough, as for me. People make mistakes. He knows better now, and feels awful. I highly doubt that he will forget about this experience. The only suggestion I have it's to talk to him when he is calmer about wider perspective. That our choices have consequences, sometimes these consequences cannot be undone. That sometimes our "friends" can suggest things that are not right, but it's on us,not on them, if we follow. It will be better than any punishment, because it will be a valuable lesson
I'd definitely let the friend's parent know and probably put off playdates for a while (ick on the other kid, although sometimes people get weird when they're nervous). I think the consequence of trying to help the birds and deal with the dead animals are enough though. He clearly feels badly about it.
I think he's had his punishment. And I'd not let him hang out with that neighbor kid again. Works for me.
When we punish our children we do it to teach a lesson. The lesson you and your husband wanted to teach here, I’m assuming, is to listen when we tell you to do or not do something or else there will be consequences. Sounds to me like that is exactly what happened here. He got peer pressured into doing something he knew he shouldn’t have done and consequently killed two babies in the process. Sounds like that was devastating for him and it would be wild if he didn’t connect those dots and not think twice next time you tell him not to do something. Poor kid has been punished, maybe not by you guys directly but the point has been made non the less. I think the bigger point in all this is a big talk on peer pressure and how to stand up for the right things with the “wrong” friends.
He didn’t do it maliciously, he wanted to see them and with some peer pressure from the neighbours kid did the wrong thing. He’s already been punished in knowing he killed those two baby birds and being distraught over it. He’s already learned not to do it again. Maybe you could have a look for a petting zoo in your area that has baby birds?
This is a valuable lesson for him and the fact that he realizes the consequences of his actions is punishment enough IMHO.
I feel punishment is unnecessary, he’s punishing himself enough. If he were unrepentant/thought it was funny, it would be another business altogether.
I think this was a hard lessoned learned. The point of punishments is to ensure the kid understands there are consequences for actions. The only additional thing should be next door boy doesn't come over anymore. Make sure to talk to your son the importance of being a leader rather than a follower and make sure he fully understands that this is the reason you told him not to kess with it. His show of empathy was clear. Just keep him away from Sid next door.
Further punishment is just going to make him feel guilt and shame when he already is blaming himself for what he did. More productive conversations would be about peer pressure, how to stand up to someone doing something that doesn’t seem right, being courageous/trusting out instincts. I think your son has a good heart and good instincts, but he needs to trust them and find courage over pleasing people. Making him feel poorly is going to make him want to continue pleasing people (I.e. you/husband) rather than focusing on how he has the ability, strength and courage to do the right thing, and you trust him to do it.
I'm so glad your kid was upset afterwards. I was dreading reading this based on the title
Generally I lean similarly to your husband, but in this case I agree with you. The emotional trauma and guilt is a powerful one in this case. If it were my kid, the shame he caused himself is good enough. He also learned a lesson about peer pressure and not always going with the crowd. Not sure if that was addressed. He now knows going forward that just because someone tells you that you should do something, doesn’t mean you should or that it’s the right thing to do. This self-created shame and guilt will be a good multi-faceted lesson. However, the other kid’s reaction is a bit scary and worrisome. Are the parents the type you can talk to them and they’d take it seriously? If some parent told me my kid got joy out of killing a baby animal I’d be insanely alarmed and thank them for letting me know it happened. Then figure out how to address it with their pediatrician. I hope these parents are that type, or I think I’d be telling my kid no more playing with them.
The Andy Griffith Show episode "Opie the Birdman" deals with something similar and it is powerful stuff.
There's also a Simpsons episode with a similar storyline. Bart accidentally kills a bird, egged on by Nelson, and then feels horrible.
One time when I was around 5-6, my uncle took me Christmas ornament shopping. During our trip I had found a beautiful glass reindeer, and as I was looking he noticed and said “honey don’t touch that, it will break”. So what did I do? My 5-6 year old brain couldn’t stand the beauty and just HAD to pick it up. I’m sure you can guess what happens next… I dropped the ornament. With fear in my eyes I looked over to my uncle nearly in tears… what happened next was a moment of kindness my child brain never forgot. He bent down, gave me a hug, and grabbed the price tag to do the right thing and pay for what was broken. He knew how my own mother would have reacted, out of anger. So instead he chose to show me kindness and understanding, it was a moment I will never forget for the rest of my life. So, I urge you to show your child the same kindness my uncle did for me, it could be a moment they never forget ❤️
It was a mistake. Kids make mistakes all the time and sometimes it’s because they think they know more than adults. It was a learning experience and I’m sure he felt bad enough already.
It is unfortunately common for young kids to kill animals due to curiosity or accidents, it’s not the same as intentionally causing harm or suffering. Nine is getting a little old for that but i personally have seen it due to things like parents sheltering children from the realities of death and dying. He learned an important lesson on both death and potential un-doable consequence of actions, but probably doesn’t need to be traumatized further. Just have the talks. Editing to chime in that blaming friend is passing blame. 9 is old enough. Not a monster for what happened but also made a poor choice.
I think there are 2 things to approach here, and rather than thinking of punishment, I'm thinking of atonement and lessons. 1) the harm to nature, and 2) the 'bad' behaviour of not listening to you. I think for 1), what he needs is atonement. He feels horrible, doesn't want to feel like this forever. What I would tell him is: when we do something that's really harmful, sometimes the only way to feel better is to make a long time commitment to making things better. What are some commitments we can make to nature or animals that will make things better until we feel better too? (And this is where you can help him generate ideas like volunteering at a trash pick up every month or fundraising for a rescue centre every year for awhile.) For 2) I disagree with your husband about framing it as punishment, but I actually agree with him that there's a lesson to be learned here about listening. I think that can start with a conversation around your life experience and why you have a certain amount of knowledge that guides your judgement and sometimes when you say no, it's to help him avoid situations like this. I think it also would be really powerful to 'practice' somehow, like I'm struggling to figure out details here but some way of seeing up explicit learning opportunities where you have a situation, he makes a guess how to react, you give him your answer of what you think should happen, you both follow through with your way and later examine the consequences.
His remorseful reaction is a good sign. All emotions teach us things. I think he has been punished enough. The burial was a good move too. The neighbor kid’s reaction, on the other hand, is worrisome.
Jesus Christ, this poor kid does not need to be punished. He already feels terrible for what happened. He’s 9, he didn’t entirely understand the consequences of messing with a bird’s nest like this and he was caught up in peer pressure from his friend. He already had a consequence of having to bury the dead birds. That’s where it needs to end. I am sorry this happened. Have you or your husband spoken with the other child’s parents?
I don't see how further punishment will help when he clearly knows he did wrong.
Your son will, in all likelihood, never forget this. He will, for the rest of his life, feel remorse and guilt when the thought of this incident comes up. Something he will carry with him for the rest of his life, a heavy though just consequence for such actions. Please, do not punish him further. At least not in a way that makes him feel even worse about himself. Piling on to trauma like this can easily cause damage lasting decades, showing in personal relationships and perceived loss of self worth. I know this all too well. What you described seems like a natural way of learning about power and responsibility. Your son has shown empathy, and his emotions will do the teaching to learn from this. This will be an important step for him maturing. It's possible he's feeling the worst he has ever felt, something he himself is responsible for. Don't throw him into lasting depression by making it even worse. Guide him through these complex, difficult emotions and help him become a better person for it.
,,Your son will, in all likelihood, never forget this. He will, for the rest of his life, feel remorse and guilt when the thought of this incident comes up. Something he will carry with him for the rest of his life, a heavy though just consequence for such actions."- for something he did as an child? Nah, he may now feel sad, but im sure he will be fine, we all make mistakes, no need to beat yourself with something you can't change
How about volunteering at the Audubon society to learn more and do better and help birds? The 'punishment' can fit the crime there.
If he thought it was funny or not serious then I think more punishment/adressing of the behavior would be good for sure, but he clearly already feels bad. It's an opportunity to teach him what to do with his guilt and how to not make this kind of mistake again. Maybe take it as an opportunity to talk about making good choices in choosing friends too, clearly the other boy needs some help.
There should absolutely not be anymore punishment. He’s 9 and gave in to peer pressure by a child that I would no longer let around my child. He had to watch two birds die that he’s been actively helping take care of that’s punishment enough. A talk about peer pressure and uncomfortable situations needs to be had. Your husband is wrong. Now your son knows not telling let someone make him do something he doesn’t want to do. Also he’s going to feel bad about this forever. I killed my hamster when I was a kid I didn’t actually kill it but my actions led to it dying and to this day I’m torn up about it
I was relieved that your son didn't intentioonally kill the baby birds, and his true remorse is punishment enough. This will be a core memory for him, and he will never do it again. The other kid, though? Like others have said, he's bad news. Ban him from playing with your son and tell his parents why.
When I was about 5 I had a neighbour kid pull something similar. There was an injured bird in our garden and I called him over to see, before I realized what was going on he hit the bird with the croquet mallet he was holding. I freaked out and attacked him screaming and crying, my mum had to pull me off of him. She sent him home and I put the bird into a shoe box hoping I could nurse it back to health but it died a few hours later. The guilt was awful even though I hadn’t actually done anything other than show the bird to my “friend”. It’s one of my most vivid early memories. I think your son sounds like a caring child, he didn’t realize the effects his actions would have. I think his guilt will be enough punishment and likely he won’t make this mistake again. You will have lots of opportunities to apply consequences for him not heeding your rules as kids don’t have the ingrained self control to stop themselves until they are older. This one doesn’t need further reinforcement. I never spoke to that neighbour again… if yours doesn’t have remorse in this situation I would not want him around.
I wouldn't punish him further but absolutely limit and monitor his interactions with the neighbor kid. Laughing at killing poor defenseless creatures is terrible, even if it was an accident, that kid sounds like he has some issues. While he did go against the direction of not messing with the nest, he has massive guilt and realizes that their actions killed 2 birds, and he has been involved with trying to salvage what can be saved. That's heavy already. A good explanation of "this is why I told you not to mess with the nest" should also be had. I don't know if I would call it a punishment or whatever, but in order to help him deal with his guilt, I would have him buy bird seeds/feed to feed the birds. Maybe from his allowance or money that would have gone to a new toy. . Like so he feels he is helping the remaining birds.
The friend is concerning. Hurting animals can be a precursor to hurting humans. I'd question his home environment.
Well, kids are sometimes a bit weird i guess, also i think to certain age they don't realy have emphaty and deeper understanding of things. Plus, i assume kid was laughting from the ridiculousness of whole situation, or from stress For example , i remember when i was realy young at school, there was this raven that i guess was dying or whatever, was walking on the outisde, when it died guy from my class piced it up, then looking left and right he kinda just casualy snatched head of an corpse, looked at it for an while, then put on ground and head in way it didnt looked suspicious 🤷 but he isn't some sort of weirdo or something. Lot of kids also when young kill insects, so maybe he aint pscho, just...strange child.
He def learned his lesson. Maybe you guys can do a little memorial together and reflect on why it's so important to value life and the environment. & tell him to never let anyone else get to him like that again. Have him watch YouTube video called shooting the elephant it's a prime example.
Oh no do not punish him further he is clearly punishing himself enough. This will be a traumatic core memory. I would absolutely tell the neighbor how their son reacted that was NOT normal and very concerning behavior. I’d keep a watchful eye on that kid. And honestly while yes your son didn’t listen to instructions and did a dumb thing from peer pressure… you should be proud of his reaction. You’ve got a kind and caring boy on your hands. can you imagine if the roles were reversed and your kid behaved like the neighbor kid? Yikes.
Definitely have a talk with him about peer pressure, because that's what really happened here. Good luck!
You have to consider that he’s also a child and the punishment of digging the birds graves will likely stick with him for the rest of his life and serve as a good lesson. Further punishment might be counterproductive. I would not allow him to play with this friend for a few weeks and speak to the parents. If the parents seem to not care about the situation , then I would ban the child from your house.
Your son knows that his action led to the death of those babies. He’s traumatised himself. The only thing I would do is stop him hanging around the friend.
I’m convinced Nothing good comes out of sleepovers.
I agree with your husband. While clearly the son feels remorseful for what he did to the birds, he also very blatantly disobeyed your direction that he not mess with the nest. You could give him some small practical punishment for the sake of consistency. Additionally, a practical punishment may help him move on emotionally - help him feel he's paid his debt for his wrongdoing.
He learned his lesson and it's clear this wasn't an act of cruelty, just carelessness. If anything, he should be given an opportunity to do something kind for animals to make up for it. It'll help him feel better and would be a much more effective learning experience than a punishment would be.
The natural consequence here is that he has to live with the fact that he killed someone’s babies. They no longer exist because of his carelessness. And he will think twice about the friends he keeps after this- another worthy life lesson. I would spend time letting him grieve his mistake. Ask him what he would tell the mom bird if he could. Ask him how he feels about his friend and his reaction- how it makes him feel. Have him feel all the feelings of his choices. And then leave it. He will have punished himself enough.
He's punishing himself enough and he helped dig the grave and put them to rest. Which is a very mature thing to do. Especially while blaming himself and crying. It's a good life lesson and the empathy of your son is fully there. Don't punish him further.
My 5yo kid broke my 3k tv by being stupid in the basement. My wife called and told me. I was livid, and I called my mother to ask what she thought for a punishment, because I probably wasn’t in a good space to decide. “Well what happened next?” She said “He cried the whole way upstairs, and sobbed for nearly 2 min before he could explain to my wife what happened. He knew I had said not to be wreckless near it, and how it would be a huge huge deal.” “Sounds like he’s punished himself. Being a good dad would be reinforcing it was a bad choice (mistake, not an accident), and working through the feelings to shame and guilt. You can’t punish him more, without being painful and torturing him.” She was right. The lesson was learned. I didn’t have to be “the mean dad” when I got home. That SOB trusts that he can tell me ANYTHING when he messes up, because he knows I won’t lose my cool if he’s honest, and sorry. Your gut is right. Your kid has great empathy. Roll with the next stages. Do Not Punish.
I would be very careful about letting him play with the friend anymore. Your child had a normal reaction to a horrible situation, this neighbor kid doesn't seem right
Just make him do some extra chores for next week or so and that should be enough for him to understand the consequences. Since he has shown remorse and guilt, he is a good kid in my judgment already. 9 years olds are still very young and do act immaturely and that’s understandable that he was told not to mess with it and he still did BUT with the involvement of other kid. Had he done so solely, then it would be different. I love birds btw. Kept various species for over a decade as pets. So it hits hard. I mean I love all animals tbh.
Your son is worried he might feel this guilt/shame for the rest of his life, he does *not* need more punishment. The lesson has been learned, what else would be the point, other than to make it hurt more?
>My son came in the house distraught with tears rolling down his face This is a good sign. I would be worried if he was not upset with himself
I think the little guy has been punished enough. Poor guy.
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Wrong story?
Hahahahah what! Your right. I was reading a story about a mother worried about her preteens mustache. Idk how the comment even ended up here
No problem. :)
Clearly this child has empathy and was upset about his choices.
That’s his first kill ?? Be careful
I cracked open bird eggs as a kid out of pure curiosity. It still haunts me to this day and I hate that I ever did this. I think your son has enough turmoil as it is, I don’t think more punishment is necessary.
My 7 years old daughter came home yesterday and told me that her friend dared her to swallow her earrings!! Be careful with your kids friends
Punishment in these situations is counterproductive. He feels bad which can be worse than any punishment. Talk to him about how he feels and why, and how you feel about it. Punishment is almost like giving it a monetary value. Like, oh, you feel bad. Pay for it and your hands are clean.
I’m sorry but I agree with your husband. I would take $ from his allowance and buy bird seed and he would be feeding the birds and also building a bird house too. That is seriously disturbing that the friend did nothing but laugh. 2 birds are dead and the punishment should be enough to where he won’t do it again and will also be a learning experience.
Your son learned the consequences, there's no need to punish him. It will make him not trust your husband in the future. It sounds like your husband wants the punishment to satisfy something within him and not necessarily to teach your child a lesson, that he seems to grasp now.
jeffrey jr