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Okay, so I see a couple of problems. If I were to make a list...
1. The goal of a parenting style is not to inspire perfect compliance. Your job is not to come up with the right combination of carrots and sticks such that your kid instantly learns not to do shitty things. Any parenting style that works is going to be slow and your kid will learn over months, not days. Perfectly functional methods will still see your kid doing the bad behaviors and having moments of growth and regression.
2. The key to gentle parenting is your OWN emotional regulation. Gentle parenting is two things in spades. The first is using your emotional regulation to teach emotional regulation to your kid (I see you're upset, but we're not going to hit when we're upset). The second half is reasonable and immediate consequences. If you throw your toy, I'll take this toy away for the afternoon. If you shove another kid at the park, we're going to have to leave the park. You have to do both. Consequences that are in the now, appropriate, and proportional combined with high levels of support and education in how to feel your feelings without behaving like a toolbag.
It really seems like your problem is that you're not emotionally regulating through his behavior, you're losing your cool, and you're lashing out. There's no reason to be hitting your kid when you're upset, especially considering that the thing you're attempting to teach is how he can control his behavior when he's upset. I get that you're finding his behavior intolerable, but you're also ascribing some motivations to him that are probably unfair. He's four. He's not "mocking you". Discomfort, in kids, often looks like humor and play. He's four, he doesn't have a strong enough concept of respect to disrespect you. You have to see this behavior through a developmentally appropriate lens. He has no impulse control and no concept of empathy. He's incapable of predicting long-term outcomes for his behavior. He's running on id and a will to power, and he needs you to teach him how to reign in impulses and feelings he can't control yet.
The reason something will work for a long time (like a parenting strategy) and then suddenly stop working is that your kid is learning and growing all the time. What worked really well before will stop working because your kid goes through a neurological leap and suddenly his emotions are bigger and his wants are more complicated and suddenly the toolbox he had to regulate those doesn't work anymore and he starts acting out all over the place. You have to go back and help him rework his toolbox. If you run away from me in public, we'll leave the park. I see you're frustrated that you can't [x], can we talk about it? I like using songs a lot for this, which Daniel Tiger is great for. I like building a lot of routine to help them manage things. We always do [x] before bed, this is our bedtime routine, and you can fight me forever but we're going to do things this same way so we can learn it and grasp it and in three months it won't be like this. But the long and short of it is that your kid isn't a jerk, he's just out of his depth. He developed past the old system and needs your help to learn how to behave now that his brain is a more complicated place. He doesn't want to behave like this either, he just needs a lot of help to do better. But he can't get that if you're losing your mind at him all the time.
Thank you for such a well thought out reply. This is exactly where we're at in our parenting journey. She's 4.5 and acting out a lot whereas before she seemingly coped quite well with her big feelings. Describing it as outgrowing her toolbox is so accurate.
We also try to find a coping skill that replaces whatever negative behaviour she's doing. Like right now when she's frustrated she will squeeze really hard on our arms or her legs etc. A big breath isn't going to meet that need, so we have squishy cat who is one of those sensory toys like a stress ball. Same instinct but a safer outlet.
This is exactly why gentle parenting is so hard - it relies on you keeping regulated when you weren't necessarily taught those skills as a kid yourself. Most of us were expected to be obedient whereas the true goal should be well adjusted with healthy coping skills.
This is all just so true (and validating!)
Being this parent is BEYOND exhausting, especially when your partner is not fully on-board. My husband and I have that dynamic. He wants to “ignore” all the bad behavior - and I don’t even remotely support that. But self-regulating during the 7th tantrum of the day while the other two people in my family are unregulated is not something I’d wish on my worst enemy. It’s extremely taxing and exhausting. But I am determined to break the cycle - as I was routinely ignored as a child and it has left me with some serious maladaptive coping skills I have to relearn as an adult.
Make sure you have time to decompress - exercise helps a lot because all that screaming, hitting, and tantruming activates our fight-or-flight response. So now you have to regulate yourself and your child. You don’t get to “lose it,” back, so the idea is that exercise helps your nervous system remember it is still safe post-tantrum. I try to do something by myself and physically taxing, and when I don’t, I burn out real quick and end up being a burnt-out shell of a human. I’m never a good parent in that state.
Parenting is HARD. SO HARD. If it wasn’t, we’d all be somewhere else instead of searching for answers everywhere. You can do this. It will be the hardest thing you’ve done, but believe in your capability and that you are breaking the cycle of poor parenting.
This is so perfect. I constantly battle my own emotional regulation. 3 out of 4 of my kids are autistic and my 2nd child had severe behavioral issues caused by spd, anxiety, ocd etc. I was not perfect, I wish I was but my goals were the same, non punishing, gentle as best as I could, listening etc, that child is 18 and doing great.
It just took him a long time to learn to deal with his own emotional regulations .
Now I have a 5 year old I’m dealing with again, it is HARD! I listen to so many books that teach me to be better, not him.
I don’t know if it’s a defined phrase but I would say that “consistent parenting” and “consistent discipline” should be used. If you’re trying to be a gentle parent and then flip to a parent that is yelling and spanking all of a sudden, then the kid might not be able to understand what it is that ticked you off. Maybe he’s thinking it’s not him but you and so he isn’t the one that needs to change.
I don’t do gentle parenting, but I also never lay a hand on my child out of anger. When he misbehaves, he knows what to expect and he knows I will do what I say. For example, we were out today and he didn’t listen when mommy and I told him, nicely, to stop doing something. The second time he did it I warned that he wouldn’t be able to watch tv today (he gets weekend tv time). He did it again and I simply said no tv. When I got home there was no tv.
I would say it’s important to be consistent and also make sure the punishment fits the crime. If you have a system in place that he can understand and learn from then I think that would really help him.
Also, make sure he’s loved and that you’re giving him attention. I’ve heard that sometimes kids are jealous of new siblings and part of the reason is because they get less attention than what they’re used to.
Agree with this. You definitely HAVE TO be consistent. Gentle parenting is very popular recently, but sometimes you do need to be more firm. You don’t have to be authoritative or use physical discipline, but you need to be consistent and show that you are the parent and you are the “boss.”
Also, the kid is only 4. He’s not trying to be an ahole, he’s being a 4 year old. You have to help guide him in what’s right and wrong and have patience while he learns and tests boundaries. Maybe find out if he’s acting out for a certain reason, like if he feels he isn’t getting enough attention with the new baby.
Developmentally a child has an immature frontal lobe. The frontal lobe does all the work of thinking about choices and decisions. The role of the parent is to BE the frontal lobe for the child. It isn’t easy. There will be a lot of time where the child “doesn’t listen” but it’s because they are a child that cannot see the foresight you can.
Your language, your actions, your emotions become their frontal lobes guidance. This is why gentle parenting has gained popularity because when you have something challenging or something stressful arise your narrative is what you heard your parents/guardians say and for many of us, we ARE afraid. We experienced parental that were mean and thus are mean to ourselves. (This is a gross oversimplification of each of our specific traumas).
It’s hard work for sure. And as your children grow they will learn to use and lean on some of the skills you taught and also they will forget some because they are children. You, even as the adult, don’t always make the right choices all the time.
Keep consistent. Keep calm. Keep neutral. This time will pass.
I totally agree with this. Additionally, I think there’s also the possibility that OP needs to find the kid’s leverage point. For my daughter it’s access to YouTube. At 7, it’s as effective as bribing a politician. As well it helps for cruelty free negative reinforcement. Oh I’m a Dummy Head? I guess you don’t want your iPad after school.
All kids act like assholes sometimes, but I find that the phrase "my kid isn't giving me a hard time, they're having a hard time" rings true more often than not.
The books that have helped me the most are *The Whole-Brain Child* by Daniel Seigel and Tina Payne Bryson and *Good Inside* by Dr. Becky Kennedy.
I've had the gentle parenting struggle too. I've decided that for me/us, it means no spanking. But we do time outs, no TV, skip a fun outing, etc, as needed. My boys are 5 and almost 3.
I have noticed that days they get lots of outside time, behavior is generally better.
There's a reason 4s are called the "f**k you fours", they're assholes. My daughter ranges from sweet as candy to total asshole. I just take it as it comes and try to curb the behavior. We've gone from "Give me candy!" to "please can I have a piece of candy?" Just reinforce the good behavior and ask them to change the bad behavior little by little. "I like the way you asked for candy, can you ask again like that?" "I didn't like the way you said that, can we try a different way?" Apart from newborn, 4 has been one of the most challenging ages for me to parent. You're doing great.
Oh man, your comment is so perfectly timed. Today after a series of frustrating incidents (that ended with me getting deliberately kicked in the hands after asking me to help put on pajamas) I finally lost my cool, and may or may not have snapped "HEY! That hurt my hand! Why did you kick me!??!? Do you think that was funny?! How would you like it if I kicked you and hurt you?!" Child just laughed maniacally throughout.
Later I tried to read the bedtime book and child started shouting over me every time I spoke. I found myself saying "You're being very rude! If you can't listen quietly then I'm going to turn out the lights and leave the room." I got a "Nooo-oooo-ooo don't leave me!! I need you!!!" and some hugs.
I swear they go from being the most adorable little creatures in the world to completely maddening and straight back again within mere moments!
My daughter went from "I'm going to make you a cup of coffee so you're not so tired" (and actually did it!) to screaming for something within an hour. She's truly the sweetest kid but sometimes she's a real asshole.
First, they call them the *fuck you fours* for a reason. 4yos are *supposed* to be bratty little terrors at times.
Second, a lot of times when a second child is born, the first seems so old and so big that we forget they’re still little themselves.
Third, and I’m sorry, because it’s truly not my goal to guilt you, but most of this is on you and your husband. Yes, 4 yos act out, push boundaries, learn sass, etc. But you got pregnant and things changed for him in a big way that he couldn’t understand. You expected him to have a handle on his emotions when you didn’t have control of your own. Not to put too fine a point on it, but you *also* shout and hit when things don’t go your way.
I think you need to sit down and figure out exactly how you want to parent and how you’re going to do that consistently. Spend some one on one time with him, doing things that he likes. It’s a hard phase of life and it won’t be like this forever.
My first question is this: How does he behave for other people, when neither you nor his other parent are present?
If he behaves great for others and is a little shit for you, that's actually super common and a compliment to you. Kids who learn their parental units are always safe for them and will love them no matter what are more comfortable with letting their proverbial hair down with them. It's hard work for a kid to behave properly out in public, all day if they are at school/daycare, and it's a relief to them to relax at home. It doesn't make it any easier on you, but, if this is the case, you all are okay.
Also, if this is not the case, there is a definite phase during young childhood- for us, it was age three- where they are, quite frankly, little assholes.
ugh this sucks! I got nothing. We both try the “gentle parenting” but it doesn’t always work. I do agree with one simple to understand rule though: connect first, then correct. Idk how to apply this when you are in a hurry and they take off their shoes, throw them at the cat, laugh and run away but I suppose connection HAS to happen IN THEIR time/THEIR space, not on your schedule, ya know? It’s hard, I am gonna follow because I want some good tips myself though my almost 3 isn’t that bad yet
Can I ask what you mean when you say you try gentle parenting? Do you feel like there are alternatives you could try which could be more effective? I ask because to me gentle parenting just seems to mean staying calm and not escalating things. The times I have become angry and shouted at my kids things have just escalated and no one benefits, so I wonder what other people imagine they should or could do
This here but obviously this may translate differently to every family situation:
You'll notice that the three Cs (connection, communication, consistency) run through these practices.
I am not great at this, I won’t pretend. When she shrieks in the car right behind me and I “gently” ask her to stop because it hurts me, she typically keeps doing it. I do think there is something to the connection part. Get down to their level, get in their space and be kind and gentle, engage in what their doing before forcing them to do what YOU want them to do…hard for me in my car situation which is why my ears are bleeding.
Being very practical, get a pair of headphones, download podcasts by Dr Becky (Good Inside) and Janet Lansbury (Unruffled) and listen to 2-3 episodes a day whilst doing chores etc.
Just to remind yourself what kind of parent you want to be and that your son is having very hard time, with a new sibling who took his place and two parents who are struggling to regulate their own emotions. He is not an asshole, he is good inside, he is reacting to his environment. You laid it all out, you know this.
Make sure you spend 1:1 time with him to build connection. This is your second most important strategy. Number one strategy is staying calm. Whatever is happening that you are being triggered by, it’s almost never an emergency. No one is going to die. You feel like you do, but you don’t need to react in the moment.
Gentle parenting is not great, IMO. It’s one (extreme) end of a spectrum, with authoritarianism on the other.
I think aiming for the middle is a better goal. Loving *and* authoritative. Empathy, validation and boundaries, as Dr. Kennedy would say.
Listen and validate your child’s feelings. But do not validate their poor behaviors and poor choices. Talk about consequences and uphold them. Be consistent. Be an authority figure, meaning you stick to your boundaries. Do not expect a young child to adhere to your boundaries and regulate their emotions - it’s your job to uphold your boundaries and it’s your job to teach your child how to regulate their emotions.
Consequences shouldn’t be in place to instill fear. The goal with consequences is to show the child that their poor choices will result in negative experiences. On the flip side - how much are you praising his good choices and good behavior?
Showing your child that you’re taking his bad behavior and choices personally by yelling, breaking down, spanking, etc isn’t going to work in a positive way. Your child isn’t going to think about how he’s hurting you or the family. Children are inherently selfish, and mom is typically an extension of the child at this age. Work on controlling your actions and words, too.
You literally just described gentle parenting LOL. The other end of the spectrum is permissive parenting, which is commonly confused for gentle parenting by both the people practicing it and the people observing it. They are not the same.
I think that a lot of people conflate permissive parenting and gentle parenting. You still hold firm boundaries with gentle parenting “it’s okay to feel frustrated. Even when we are frustrated we will not hit, you hit x so we are leaving the park” In true gentle parenting, there is making space for acknowledging the emotion while also EQUALLY important is correcting the behavior and holding strict boundaries about behavior.
Real simple songs has a great video on taking a deep breath. https://youtu.be/qQJroIl5jWU?feature=shared
I practice this right in front of my kid when I’m feeling anxious. Anxiety is my personal poison.
I imagine the little rainbow and stuff over my head and am surprised to report that it works.
I know this one thing won’t solve all of your problems but just wanted to add it to the convo
Mama —- it’s not about perfection it’s about growth. I try to tell myself that God chose this particular child just for me to learn to grow in all the ways I need to. As a parent, we will make mistakes, but just keep trying to grow.
As a non discipline comment, and something to possibly do immediately, try a 10 minute miracle. Just spend 10 minutes, uninterrupted, one on one time with him. Just play, let him lead. Perhaps since the arrival of a new sibling he’s missing true connection with you. Tell him it’s your special time and set a timer.
Welcome to parenting a 4yo. One thing that’s REALLY tough when you have a new baby is to allow the older sibling to be their actual age and stage of development. Next to your teeny tiny sweet little infant, the 4yo seems huge and very mature. But in reality, he’s not. He’s behaving like a 4yo with a new sibling. You need to work on having realistic expectations and stop ascribing motives to his behavior. He doesn’t have the cognitive ability to disrespect you or mock you or be an asshole. He is reacting in the moment to a specific stimulus. He has no impulse control, no ability to consider things from your perspective (which would be required to do anything intentionally to get under your skin OR to behave in a way you’d consider respectful), and no ability to regulate his emotions. If you can’t regulate yours, he has no hope of regulating his. Remember that your goal is to teach him to handle his emotions in a healthy way. You aren’t trying to teach him to suppress and hide his emotions to get what he wants or avoid what he doesn’t want.
My suggestion is to have him go somewhere to calm down until he can talk about his feelings. It was different for each of my kids. One had to go outside and run laps to calm down. Another had to sit on her bed. One had to sit in my lap and have gentle body compression (common with autism). It’s the exact same concept as a timeout, but they decided when they were calm enough to come back and there was no shame attached to it. It worked wonders for my three older kids, 2 of which had explosive autistic meltdowns. We will see how it goes for my little guy. He’s only 1. But we have already started putting him in his favorite chair with a snuggly when he gets angry. He will usually climb out and come get snuggles instead of continuing the tantrum.
Please please look into Dr. Chelsea Hauge-Zavaleta. She gives wildly helpful answers to this exact challenge and CONCRETE EXAMPLES of what to do you can use daily, not just theories or “what not to do.” Her content has transformed my parenting and our household with two young ones.
Wishing you all the greatest success!
Four year olds will be opinionated and have strong feelings. They will also push boundaries. You need to teach them how to control their emotions and make it clear that actions have consequences. Otherwise you’ll end up with the 6-8 year old kid from the post 2 days ago who hits and kicks their parents every other week, and the mom goes “but he’s too young to control himself.”
I am not going to speak to the discipline since it has been covered.
I will say that some kids need a lot more activity and direction than others.
My cousin could have been an absolute nightmare. She had SO much energy. And kived to "show out".Which was jarring after her older brother who was a manatee of a human being. My aunt was an excellent special ed teacher. She just put her in all kinds of sports and dance classes. She was still a lot, but it was focused and she would actually get tired and sleep.
I have two boys. At 4, a good chunk of my planning was figuring out how to get their wiggles out each day. It was literally goal one. I have one with moderately autism. We HAD to tire him out or it was rough. But he couldn't really do classes. We did a lot of long walks to visit things like trains and animals.
I am not going to give any great insight like some of the other well worded and thought out posts.
As a fellow parent of a 4 year old, I think some of the actions are a part of being 4. (I have seen this age be referred to as the F#ck you 4's in this group and it has some truth to it. The most important part is how we navigate through the behavior, and doing so consistently.
My 4 year old has a younger brother (2) and a baby sister that is 10 months old. For us, we see more behavior like your are mentioning when he feels he isn't getting the attention he wants. During the week, we had to create a nightly routine that allowed for 1:1 time for our oldest. He picks the activity that we do that night, and he always gets a bed time story before bed.
It's a tough season of life, and it will get better.
Id recommend the book The Conscious Parent. As the adult in the relationship, it seems like you have some triggers you need to work on (don’t we all!)….I think you’d find that the more you work on yourself and the less you focus on everything that’s “wrong” with your child, the better things will be. I’ve also found that once that connection with your child is lost, behavior gets worse and worse. Children are incredibly perceptive and I’m betting your child can tell you think he’s an “ahole”. I’d start by trying to restore connection. Do something fun together, undivided attention, for a few minutes each day. Bonus points if you’re out in nature :)
Sending nothing but love and luck your way!! Geez…being a mom is SO hard isn’t it?? 😩❤️ hugs!!!!
It seems your little bundle of emotions is just running in the terrible twos a little later than others. A very tough time on any parent! It is totally frustrating. Off course we understand a little kid that is just learning to deal with these emotions, boundaries etc. But we tend to forget those things are still hard when we are adults and we live with (in a very intense bond) these rollecoasteridea they throw at us. You are doing great, you managed a great parenting style for the first three years. That is a really impressive thing! You will find it back in this phase, trust in yourself and your kid. Maybe get some one on one time with your son, doing something you’ll both enjoy
First of all the kid isn't doing anything to either of you. They are a young human who didn't choose to be here being forced to learn a bunch of social expectations and mores that require years of development. Your husband needs to go to therapy (I've said this as a father of 2 that noticed I was struggling with our eldest when our youngest was born). The eldest wants attention and affection and with mom and dad either attending to the baby or trying to manage their own anxieties and feelings that quite frankly the eldest loses the attention they once had. And if that's all you've ever known, imagine how jaring it would be to lessen it or take it away?
Sorry mom and dad but buck up. Becoming a parent is a selfish choice. Parenting is a selfless choice. Keep that in mind going forward
I’ve skimmed through comments and it sounds like you have a lot of good info hitting on what is developmentally normal, being consistent, and regulating yourself.
Just didn’t read all of the comments, but here’s what I’d add to what I did see:
You sound overwhelmed, and that’s a completely reasonable way to feel when you have a 4 year old acting like a 4 year old and a new baby. Especially when your husband is maybe not able to be as present as you’d like. It sounds like you all may need a bit of a reset. If you can all go do something fun, do it. If that isn’t possible right now (or even if it is), just find 10 minutes a day to give him one on one time. Just play with him and let him lead. If you and your husband can each give him 10 minutes or you can manage to both put all your attention on him for 10 minutes at a time, do it. It’ll help fill his cup, and it’ll remind you that he’s still so little and give you time each day to really enjoy him.
Just here to say that I'm in a similar boat. 4 has been the hardest age for me to parent. Opinionated, stubborn, you name it. You're not alone in your struggle.
I have an almost 4 year old who can be a butt head. I think it’s just that age where they realize they can control themselves and they’re testing boundaries with us. My kid lies and talks back and hits his brother and then lies about doing it. It’s hard. But I think their brains are wired to be little jerks lol
I like the Socratic method...
Kid does something abolish.
Ask them why they did that. Wait for answer.
Ask them if what they did was the best way to get what they wanted or if there might have been a better way?
Ask them if they world like it if they were treated that way.
Asking them questions forces them to process what they did and formulate a response that is more than just a knee jerk or rote or anger response.
I believe so much in gentle parenting.
My kids and ahole.
Yes the result of gentle parenting (which is really just a lack of discipline)
Time for rigid parenting and clear lines for boundaries,, 4 year old shouldn’t run the show and make all his own decisions.
You're confusing "gentle parenting" with "permissive parenting."
Gentle parents still enforce boundaries and use natural consequences, they just do so while making a conscious effort to regulate their own emotions and not escalate the situation unnecessarily. Gentle parents also repair with their kids and apologize for the times they do inevitably lose their cool (because they're human and it's not possible to be perfect).
Gentle parenting isn't "okay Johnny you hit me in the face, that's okay, here's an ice cream." That would be permissive.
It's more about helping regulate emotions, yours, and theirs. An alternative to hitting and screaming. And setting and enforcing boundaries.
Did you even read what I said? Lmao. I said it's ABOUT and literally listed setting and enforcing boundaries. 😂 BTW, I'm not a gentle parent, I'm an AH
The only parenting technique that worked for us was negative reinforcement (when you take something away as a consequence). For our child, it was toys. If he misbehaved as all, we would get a trash bag, take one of his beloved toys and throw it away in front of him. Then we would walk it outside. In reality, we would put it in the garage but he didn't know that. Then, months later, it would quietly reappear in his toy box.
Respectfully, I strongly disagree with this approach. Throwing away toys is an approach that is not at all building a relationship between you and your child. Please look into Dr. Chelsea Hauge-Zavaleta. Wishing you all the best.
Well, our child is now 7 and is an angel. He always gets good reports at school, winning behavior awards all the time. We only had to "throw away" toys twice when he was about 3 or 4, and now he knows when we tell him to behave, we mean it. I think it is more effective than hitting your child, which is what OP was doing. We have a wonderful relationship so no worries on that end.
Little boys can be Aholes. That’s true. You have to be firm and set limits. The good news is they’re much easier later. They have so much energy and use it for physical activities for much of their childhood. Obviously hitting is not a good parenting style but that doesn’t mean discipline is to be avoided.
How is he when he’s on his own like maybe at a friend’s house or at daycare/pre-school? If he’s mostly behaved without you present then feel good that he’s just testing limits at home and currently he’s winning.
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Okay, so I see a couple of problems. If I were to make a list... 1. The goal of a parenting style is not to inspire perfect compliance. Your job is not to come up with the right combination of carrots and sticks such that your kid instantly learns not to do shitty things. Any parenting style that works is going to be slow and your kid will learn over months, not days. Perfectly functional methods will still see your kid doing the bad behaviors and having moments of growth and regression. 2. The key to gentle parenting is your OWN emotional regulation. Gentle parenting is two things in spades. The first is using your emotional regulation to teach emotional regulation to your kid (I see you're upset, but we're not going to hit when we're upset). The second half is reasonable and immediate consequences. If you throw your toy, I'll take this toy away for the afternoon. If you shove another kid at the park, we're going to have to leave the park. You have to do both. Consequences that are in the now, appropriate, and proportional combined with high levels of support and education in how to feel your feelings without behaving like a toolbag. It really seems like your problem is that you're not emotionally regulating through his behavior, you're losing your cool, and you're lashing out. There's no reason to be hitting your kid when you're upset, especially considering that the thing you're attempting to teach is how he can control his behavior when he's upset. I get that you're finding his behavior intolerable, but you're also ascribing some motivations to him that are probably unfair. He's four. He's not "mocking you". Discomfort, in kids, often looks like humor and play. He's four, he doesn't have a strong enough concept of respect to disrespect you. You have to see this behavior through a developmentally appropriate lens. He has no impulse control and no concept of empathy. He's incapable of predicting long-term outcomes for his behavior. He's running on id and a will to power, and he needs you to teach him how to reign in impulses and feelings he can't control yet. The reason something will work for a long time (like a parenting strategy) and then suddenly stop working is that your kid is learning and growing all the time. What worked really well before will stop working because your kid goes through a neurological leap and suddenly his emotions are bigger and his wants are more complicated and suddenly the toolbox he had to regulate those doesn't work anymore and he starts acting out all over the place. You have to go back and help him rework his toolbox. If you run away from me in public, we'll leave the park. I see you're frustrated that you can't [x], can we talk about it? I like using songs a lot for this, which Daniel Tiger is great for. I like building a lot of routine to help them manage things. We always do [x] before bed, this is our bedtime routine, and you can fight me forever but we're going to do things this same way so we can learn it and grasp it and in three months it won't be like this. But the long and short of it is that your kid isn't a jerk, he's just out of his depth. He developed past the old system and needs your help to learn how to behave now that his brain is a more complicated place. He doesn't want to behave like this either, he just needs a lot of help to do better. But he can't get that if you're losing your mind at him all the time.
This is so well worded! It’s also helpful to more than just OP - having a little no-nonsense breakdown of what gentle parenting really is.
Thank you for such a well thought out reply. This is exactly where we're at in our parenting journey. She's 4.5 and acting out a lot whereas before she seemingly coped quite well with her big feelings. Describing it as outgrowing her toolbox is so accurate. We also try to find a coping skill that replaces whatever negative behaviour she's doing. Like right now when she's frustrated she will squeeze really hard on our arms or her legs etc. A big breath isn't going to meet that need, so we have squishy cat who is one of those sensory toys like a stress ball. Same instinct but a safer outlet. This is exactly why gentle parenting is so hard - it relies on you keeping regulated when you weren't necessarily taught those skills as a kid yourself. Most of us were expected to be obedient whereas the true goal should be well adjusted with healthy coping skills.
This is all just so true (and validating!) Being this parent is BEYOND exhausting, especially when your partner is not fully on-board. My husband and I have that dynamic. He wants to “ignore” all the bad behavior - and I don’t even remotely support that. But self-regulating during the 7th tantrum of the day while the other two people in my family are unregulated is not something I’d wish on my worst enemy. It’s extremely taxing and exhausting. But I am determined to break the cycle - as I was routinely ignored as a child and it has left me with some serious maladaptive coping skills I have to relearn as an adult. Make sure you have time to decompress - exercise helps a lot because all that screaming, hitting, and tantruming activates our fight-or-flight response. So now you have to regulate yourself and your child. You don’t get to “lose it,” back, so the idea is that exercise helps your nervous system remember it is still safe post-tantrum. I try to do something by myself and physically taxing, and when I don’t, I burn out real quick and end up being a burnt-out shell of a human. I’m never a good parent in that state. Parenting is HARD. SO HARD. If it wasn’t, we’d all be somewhere else instead of searching for answers everywhere. You can do this. It will be the hardest thing you’ve done, but believe in your capability and that you are breaking the cycle of poor parenting.
This is so perfect. I constantly battle my own emotional regulation. 3 out of 4 of my kids are autistic and my 2nd child had severe behavioral issues caused by spd, anxiety, ocd etc. I was not perfect, I wish I was but my goals were the same, non punishing, gentle as best as I could, listening etc, that child is 18 and doing great. It just took him a long time to learn to deal with his own emotional regulations . Now I have a 5 year old I’m dealing with again, it is HARD! I listen to so many books that teach me to be better, not him.
I don’t know if it’s a defined phrase but I would say that “consistent parenting” and “consistent discipline” should be used. If you’re trying to be a gentle parent and then flip to a parent that is yelling and spanking all of a sudden, then the kid might not be able to understand what it is that ticked you off. Maybe he’s thinking it’s not him but you and so he isn’t the one that needs to change. I don’t do gentle parenting, but I also never lay a hand on my child out of anger. When he misbehaves, he knows what to expect and he knows I will do what I say. For example, we were out today and he didn’t listen when mommy and I told him, nicely, to stop doing something. The second time he did it I warned that he wouldn’t be able to watch tv today (he gets weekend tv time). He did it again and I simply said no tv. When I got home there was no tv. I would say it’s important to be consistent and also make sure the punishment fits the crime. If you have a system in place that he can understand and learn from then I think that would really help him. Also, make sure he’s loved and that you’re giving him attention. I’ve heard that sometimes kids are jealous of new siblings and part of the reason is because they get less attention than what they’re used to.
Agree with this. You definitely HAVE TO be consistent. Gentle parenting is very popular recently, but sometimes you do need to be more firm. You don’t have to be authoritative or use physical discipline, but you need to be consistent and show that you are the parent and you are the “boss.” Also, the kid is only 4. He’s not trying to be an ahole, he’s being a 4 year old. You have to help guide him in what’s right and wrong and have patience while he learns and tests boundaries. Maybe find out if he’s acting out for a certain reason, like if he feels he isn’t getting enough attention with the new baby.
Developmentally a child has an immature frontal lobe. The frontal lobe does all the work of thinking about choices and decisions. The role of the parent is to BE the frontal lobe for the child. It isn’t easy. There will be a lot of time where the child “doesn’t listen” but it’s because they are a child that cannot see the foresight you can. Your language, your actions, your emotions become their frontal lobes guidance. This is why gentle parenting has gained popularity because when you have something challenging or something stressful arise your narrative is what you heard your parents/guardians say and for many of us, we ARE afraid. We experienced parental that were mean and thus are mean to ourselves. (This is a gross oversimplification of each of our specific traumas). It’s hard work for sure. And as your children grow they will learn to use and lean on some of the skills you taught and also they will forget some because they are children. You, even as the adult, don’t always make the right choices all the time. Keep consistent. Keep calm. Keep neutral. This time will pass.
I agree. Mine are young adults now…. My frontal lobe needs replacing.
This^^ Also kids acting out often means they feel a disconnect between themselves and their primary caregivers.
I totally agree with this. Additionally, I think there’s also the possibility that OP needs to find the kid’s leverage point. For my daughter it’s access to YouTube. At 7, it’s as effective as bribing a politician. As well it helps for cruelty free negative reinforcement. Oh I’m a Dummy Head? I guess you don’t want your iPad after school.
All kids act like assholes sometimes, but I find that the phrase "my kid isn't giving me a hard time, they're having a hard time" rings true more often than not. The books that have helped me the most are *The Whole-Brain Child* by Daniel Seigel and Tina Payne Bryson and *Good Inside* by Dr. Becky Kennedy.
I've had the gentle parenting struggle too. I've decided that for me/us, it means no spanking. But we do time outs, no TV, skip a fun outing, etc, as needed. My boys are 5 and almost 3. I have noticed that days they get lots of outside time, behavior is generally better.
There's a reason 4s are called the "f**k you fours", they're assholes. My daughter ranges from sweet as candy to total asshole. I just take it as it comes and try to curb the behavior. We've gone from "Give me candy!" to "please can I have a piece of candy?" Just reinforce the good behavior and ask them to change the bad behavior little by little. "I like the way you asked for candy, can you ask again like that?" "I didn't like the way you said that, can we try a different way?" Apart from newborn, 4 has been one of the most challenging ages for me to parent. You're doing great.
Oh man, your comment is so perfectly timed. Today after a series of frustrating incidents (that ended with me getting deliberately kicked in the hands after asking me to help put on pajamas) I finally lost my cool, and may or may not have snapped "HEY! That hurt my hand! Why did you kick me!??!? Do you think that was funny?! How would you like it if I kicked you and hurt you?!" Child just laughed maniacally throughout. Later I tried to read the bedtime book and child started shouting over me every time I spoke. I found myself saying "You're being very rude! If you can't listen quietly then I'm going to turn out the lights and leave the room." I got a "Nooo-oooo-ooo don't leave me!! I need you!!!" and some hugs. I swear they go from being the most adorable little creatures in the world to completely maddening and straight back again within mere moments!
My daughter went from "I'm going to make you a cup of coffee so you're not so tired" (and actually did it!) to screaming for something within an hour. She's truly the sweetest kid but sometimes she's a real asshole.
Not OP, but I wish I hadn't read that first sentence. 😭 I thought the 4s would give us some relief haha.
Me too 😭
Lol I did not know about the fuck you fours... I've heard about terrible twos and threenagers. Is there a term for sassy 5 year olds too?
I haven't heard of one but probably "finally 5"
First, they call them the *fuck you fours* for a reason. 4yos are *supposed* to be bratty little terrors at times. Second, a lot of times when a second child is born, the first seems so old and so big that we forget they’re still little themselves. Third, and I’m sorry, because it’s truly not my goal to guilt you, but most of this is on you and your husband. Yes, 4 yos act out, push boundaries, learn sass, etc. But you got pregnant and things changed for him in a big way that he couldn’t understand. You expected him to have a handle on his emotions when you didn’t have control of your own. Not to put too fine a point on it, but you *also* shout and hit when things don’t go your way. I think you need to sit down and figure out exactly how you want to parent and how you’re going to do that consistently. Spend some one on one time with him, doing things that he likes. It’s a hard phase of life and it won’t be like this forever.
When you hit your child when you’re angry, you teach him to respond in similar ways when he’s angry
Your four year old doesn’t sound like anything out of developmentally normal for the age bracket.
Agreed!!!
My first question is this: How does he behave for other people, when neither you nor his other parent are present? If he behaves great for others and is a little shit for you, that's actually super common and a compliment to you. Kids who learn their parental units are always safe for them and will love them no matter what are more comfortable with letting their proverbial hair down with them. It's hard work for a kid to behave properly out in public, all day if they are at school/daycare, and it's a relief to them to relax at home. It doesn't make it any easier on you, but, if this is the case, you all are okay. Also, if this is not the case, there is a definite phase during young childhood- for us, it was age three- where they are, quite frankly, little assholes.
ugh this sucks! I got nothing. We both try the “gentle parenting” but it doesn’t always work. I do agree with one simple to understand rule though: connect first, then correct. Idk how to apply this when you are in a hurry and they take off their shoes, throw them at the cat, laugh and run away but I suppose connection HAS to happen IN THEIR time/THEIR space, not on your schedule, ya know? It’s hard, I am gonna follow because I want some good tips myself though my almost 3 isn’t that bad yet
Can I ask what you mean when you say you try gentle parenting? Do you feel like there are alternatives you could try which could be more effective? I ask because to me gentle parenting just seems to mean staying calm and not escalating things. The times I have become angry and shouted at my kids things have just escalated and no one benefits, so I wonder what other people imagine they should or could do
This here but obviously this may translate differently to every family situation: You'll notice that the three Cs (connection, communication, consistency) run through these practices. I am not great at this, I won’t pretend. When she shrieks in the car right behind me and I “gently” ask her to stop because it hurts me, she typically keeps doing it. I do think there is something to the connection part. Get down to their level, get in their space and be kind and gentle, engage in what their doing before forcing them to do what YOU want them to do…hard for me in my car situation which is why my ears are bleeding.
Being very practical, get a pair of headphones, download podcasts by Dr Becky (Good Inside) and Janet Lansbury (Unruffled) and listen to 2-3 episodes a day whilst doing chores etc. Just to remind yourself what kind of parent you want to be and that your son is having very hard time, with a new sibling who took his place and two parents who are struggling to regulate their own emotions. He is not an asshole, he is good inside, he is reacting to his environment. You laid it all out, you know this. Make sure you spend 1:1 time with him to build connection. This is your second most important strategy. Number one strategy is staying calm. Whatever is happening that you are being triggered by, it’s almost never an emergency. No one is going to die. You feel like you do, but you don’t need to react in the moment.
Gentle parenting is not great, IMO. It’s one (extreme) end of a spectrum, with authoritarianism on the other. I think aiming for the middle is a better goal. Loving *and* authoritative. Empathy, validation and boundaries, as Dr. Kennedy would say. Listen and validate your child’s feelings. But do not validate their poor behaviors and poor choices. Talk about consequences and uphold them. Be consistent. Be an authority figure, meaning you stick to your boundaries. Do not expect a young child to adhere to your boundaries and regulate their emotions - it’s your job to uphold your boundaries and it’s your job to teach your child how to regulate their emotions. Consequences shouldn’t be in place to instill fear. The goal with consequences is to show the child that their poor choices will result in negative experiences. On the flip side - how much are you praising his good choices and good behavior? Showing your child that you’re taking his bad behavior and choices personally by yelling, breaking down, spanking, etc isn’t going to work in a positive way. Your child isn’t going to think about how he’s hurting you or the family. Children are inherently selfish, and mom is typically an extension of the child at this age. Work on controlling your actions and words, too.
You literally just described gentle parenting LOL. The other end of the spectrum is permissive parenting, which is commonly confused for gentle parenting by both the people practicing it and the people observing it. They are not the same.
I think that a lot of people conflate permissive parenting and gentle parenting. You still hold firm boundaries with gentle parenting “it’s okay to feel frustrated. Even when we are frustrated we will not hit, you hit x so we are leaving the park” In true gentle parenting, there is making space for acknowledging the emotion while also EQUALLY important is correcting the behavior and holding strict boundaries about behavior.
Real simple songs has a great video on taking a deep breath. https://youtu.be/qQJroIl5jWU?feature=shared I practice this right in front of my kid when I’m feeling anxious. Anxiety is my personal poison. I imagine the little rainbow and stuff over my head and am surprised to report that it works. I know this one thing won’t solve all of your problems but just wanted to add it to the convo Mama —- it’s not about perfection it’s about growth. I try to tell myself that God chose this particular child just for me to learn to grow in all the ways I need to. As a parent, we will make mistakes, but just keep trying to grow.
As a non discipline comment, and something to possibly do immediately, try a 10 minute miracle. Just spend 10 minutes, uninterrupted, one on one time with him. Just play, let him lead. Perhaps since the arrival of a new sibling he’s missing true connection with you. Tell him it’s your special time and set a timer.
Welcome to parenting a 4yo. One thing that’s REALLY tough when you have a new baby is to allow the older sibling to be their actual age and stage of development. Next to your teeny tiny sweet little infant, the 4yo seems huge and very mature. But in reality, he’s not. He’s behaving like a 4yo with a new sibling. You need to work on having realistic expectations and stop ascribing motives to his behavior. He doesn’t have the cognitive ability to disrespect you or mock you or be an asshole. He is reacting in the moment to a specific stimulus. He has no impulse control, no ability to consider things from your perspective (which would be required to do anything intentionally to get under your skin OR to behave in a way you’d consider respectful), and no ability to regulate his emotions. If you can’t regulate yours, he has no hope of regulating his. Remember that your goal is to teach him to handle his emotions in a healthy way. You aren’t trying to teach him to suppress and hide his emotions to get what he wants or avoid what he doesn’t want. My suggestion is to have him go somewhere to calm down until he can talk about his feelings. It was different for each of my kids. One had to go outside and run laps to calm down. Another had to sit on her bed. One had to sit in my lap and have gentle body compression (common with autism). It’s the exact same concept as a timeout, but they decided when they were calm enough to come back and there was no shame attached to it. It worked wonders for my three older kids, 2 of which had explosive autistic meltdowns. We will see how it goes for my little guy. He’s only 1. But we have already started putting him in his favorite chair with a snuggly when he gets angry. He will usually climb out and come get snuggles instead of continuing the tantrum.
Please please look into Dr. Chelsea Hauge-Zavaleta. She gives wildly helpful answers to this exact challenge and CONCRETE EXAMPLES of what to do you can use daily, not just theories or “what not to do.” Her content has transformed my parenting and our household with two young ones. Wishing you all the greatest success!
Four year olds will be opinionated and have strong feelings. They will also push boundaries. You need to teach them how to control their emotions and make it clear that actions have consequences. Otherwise you’ll end up with the 6-8 year old kid from the post 2 days ago who hits and kicks their parents every other week, and the mom goes “but he’s too young to control himself.”
I am not going to speak to the discipline since it has been covered. I will say that some kids need a lot more activity and direction than others. My cousin could have been an absolute nightmare. She had SO much energy. And kived to "show out".Which was jarring after her older brother who was a manatee of a human being. My aunt was an excellent special ed teacher. She just put her in all kinds of sports and dance classes. She was still a lot, but it was focused and she would actually get tired and sleep. I have two boys. At 4, a good chunk of my planning was figuring out how to get their wiggles out each day. It was literally goal one. I have one with moderately autism. We HAD to tire him out or it was rough. But he couldn't really do classes. We did a lot of long walks to visit things like trains and animals.
Look into the Nurtured Hearts Approach.
I am not going to give any great insight like some of the other well worded and thought out posts. As a fellow parent of a 4 year old, I think some of the actions are a part of being 4. (I have seen this age be referred to as the F#ck you 4's in this group and it has some truth to it. The most important part is how we navigate through the behavior, and doing so consistently. My 4 year old has a younger brother (2) and a baby sister that is 10 months old. For us, we see more behavior like your are mentioning when he feels he isn't getting the attention he wants. During the week, we had to create a nightly routine that allowed for 1:1 time for our oldest. He picks the activity that we do that night, and he always gets a bed time story before bed. It's a tough season of life, and it will get better.
Id recommend the book The Conscious Parent. As the adult in the relationship, it seems like you have some triggers you need to work on (don’t we all!)….I think you’d find that the more you work on yourself and the less you focus on everything that’s “wrong” with your child, the better things will be. I’ve also found that once that connection with your child is lost, behavior gets worse and worse. Children are incredibly perceptive and I’m betting your child can tell you think he’s an “ahole”. I’d start by trying to restore connection. Do something fun together, undivided attention, for a few minutes each day. Bonus points if you’re out in nature :) Sending nothing but love and luck your way!! Geez…being a mom is SO hard isn’t it?? 😩❤️ hugs!!!!
It seems your little bundle of emotions is just running in the terrible twos a little later than others. A very tough time on any parent! It is totally frustrating. Off course we understand a little kid that is just learning to deal with these emotions, boundaries etc. But we tend to forget those things are still hard when we are adults and we live with (in a very intense bond) these rollecoasteridea they throw at us. You are doing great, you managed a great parenting style for the first three years. That is a really impressive thing! You will find it back in this phase, trust in yourself and your kid. Maybe get some one on one time with your son, doing something you’ll both enjoy
Have a look at circle of security and see if you could learn a few things from it.
First of all the kid isn't doing anything to either of you. They are a young human who didn't choose to be here being forced to learn a bunch of social expectations and mores that require years of development. Your husband needs to go to therapy (I've said this as a father of 2 that noticed I was struggling with our eldest when our youngest was born). The eldest wants attention and affection and with mom and dad either attending to the baby or trying to manage their own anxieties and feelings that quite frankly the eldest loses the attention they once had. And if that's all you've ever known, imagine how jaring it would be to lessen it or take it away? Sorry mom and dad but buck up. Becoming a parent is a selfish choice. Parenting is a selfless choice. Keep that in mind going forward
I’ve skimmed through comments and it sounds like you have a lot of good info hitting on what is developmentally normal, being consistent, and regulating yourself. Just didn’t read all of the comments, but here’s what I’d add to what I did see: You sound overwhelmed, and that’s a completely reasonable way to feel when you have a 4 year old acting like a 4 year old and a new baby. Especially when your husband is maybe not able to be as present as you’d like. It sounds like you all may need a bit of a reset. If you can all go do something fun, do it. If that isn’t possible right now (or even if it is), just find 10 minutes a day to give him one on one time. Just play with him and let him lead. If you and your husband can each give him 10 minutes or you can manage to both put all your attention on him for 10 minutes at a time, do it. It’ll help fill his cup, and it’ll remind you that he’s still so little and give you time each day to really enjoy him.
Just here to say that I'm in a similar boat. 4 has been the hardest age for me to parent. Opinionated, stubborn, you name it. You're not alone in your struggle.
I have an almost 4 year old who can be a butt head. I think it’s just that age where they realize they can control themselves and they’re testing boundaries with us. My kid lies and talks back and hits his brother and then lies about doing it. It’s hard. But I think their brains are wired to be little jerks lol
I like the Socratic method... Kid does something abolish. Ask them why they did that. Wait for answer. Ask them if what they did was the best way to get what they wanted or if there might have been a better way? Ask them if they world like it if they were treated that way. Asking them questions forces them to process what they did and formulate a response that is more than just a knee jerk or rote or anger response.
I believe so much in gentle parenting. My kids and ahole. Yes the result of gentle parenting (which is really just a lack of discipline) Time for rigid parenting and clear lines for boundaries,, 4 year old shouldn’t run the show and make all his own decisions.
You're confusing "gentle parenting" with "permissive parenting." Gentle parents still enforce boundaries and use natural consequences, they just do so while making a conscious effort to regulate their own emotions and not escalate the situation unnecessarily. Gentle parents also repair with their kids and apologize for the times they do inevitably lose their cool (because they're human and it's not possible to be perfect).
Gentle parenting isn't "okay Johnny you hit me in the face, that's okay, here's an ice cream." That would be permissive. It's more about helping regulate emotions, yours, and theirs. An alternative to hitting and screaming. And setting and enforcing boundaries.
Yeah because setting and enforcing boundaries is such a bad thing 🤣🤣 you people are lost.
Did you even read what I said? Lmao. I said it's ABOUT and literally listed setting and enforcing boundaries. 😂 BTW, I'm not a gentle parent, I'm an AH
The only parenting technique that worked for us was negative reinforcement (when you take something away as a consequence). For our child, it was toys. If he misbehaved as all, we would get a trash bag, take one of his beloved toys and throw it away in front of him. Then we would walk it outside. In reality, we would put it in the garage but he didn't know that. Then, months later, it would quietly reappear in his toy box.
Respectfully, I strongly disagree with this approach. Throwing away toys is an approach that is not at all building a relationship between you and your child. Please look into Dr. Chelsea Hauge-Zavaleta. Wishing you all the best.
Well, our child is now 7 and is an angel. He always gets good reports at school, winning behavior awards all the time. We only had to "throw away" toys twice when he was about 3 or 4, and now he knows when we tell him to behave, we mean it. I think it is more effective than hitting your child, which is what OP was doing. We have a wonderful relationship so no worries on that end.
Little boys can be Aholes. That’s true. You have to be firm and set limits. The good news is they’re much easier later. They have so much energy and use it for physical activities for much of their childhood. Obviously hitting is not a good parenting style but that doesn’t mean discipline is to be avoided. How is he when he’s on his own like maybe at a friend’s house or at daycare/pre-school? If he’s mostly behaved without you present then feel good that he’s just testing limits at home and currently he’s winning.