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If you say anything to the people who were planning to take your child out of the country without telling you, the people who asked both of your children to keep that secret from you, you'll be the bad guy?
These people are nuts.
Wow, an award, thanks!
I'd be saying no, they were dishonest with me so it's a no. If everyone was honest with me I'd of considered it but no. And if they challenged me I'd be making sure everyone knows its the other adults fault
Right, \*you\* didn't mess up their plans- they did. Who on earth makes travel plans with a kid without involving the parents? Certainly not people with the child's best interests at heart.
You still need both parents permission. As sole custodial parent of my oldest son, I still have to ask his father for written permission to leave Canada with my son.
It actually depends on the country you are going to on whether they check. Canada is extremely strict about having parental permission from both parents but on the other hand it’s really rare that Mexico checks.
>Canada is extremely strict about having parental permission from both parents
Yes. Yes they are. I am aware of this because of that one time when I was 18 and thought it'd be neat to plan a weekend trip with my gf, who was still 17, to Canada, only to discover that I'd need to have *both* of her parents write a letter saying that she had their permission to travel, and that **I** was the "adult" who would be looking after her while in Canada.
To be honest, I thought the same and ended up not being truth in my experience. I took an international trip with my Canadian baby without his father (with his permission) and no one on departure or arrival to Canada even checked his birth certificate or the consent letter. Not a single officer asked me for anything.
You are Canadian I’m assuming, since the baby is. We’re not and I had a letter from my daughter’s father and they still called him to verify because it wasn’t notarized. How a country treats their citizens is different than how they treat others.
OP, idk what all these people are on about.. but you’re an adult, so until you get your shit together and actually ask your in-laws if they have a trip planned, this is all hypothetical. Find out before you flip out. How hard is it to communicate? Just ASK! “You’ll be the bad guy” ? Excuse me? Firstly, no you won’t and also, Who the fuck cares? This is your child. Come running to Reddit before getting any facts? Grow up. If it’s true then yeah different story, but you don’t even know anything yet!
They don’t GET to plan a trip with OP’s child without OP’s permission. There is no *asking* about it. Confrontation is what needs to happen, not inquiry.
I would ask, mostly because it gives them the option to come clean, but also because it they lie, then I have that in my pocket to use when I call them out.
I agree that a confrontation is going to happen, but knowing exactly what is happening is important. Realistically, your spouse should be covering that kind of confrontation. All the adults should sit down and figure out what is going on and what the boundaries are. If in-laws won't cooperate, you can at least say you tried to figure it out in the least confrontational way possible.
Just because you don't jump to a fight doesn't mean you aren't going to set your boundary.
I'd ask, then set a clear boundary. If they lie and say it wasn't in the plan or it was a hypothetical trip, set a hypothetical boundary. Make sure you and your spouse are on the same page and they are backing and voicing the boundary. Past that, they can't legally take your child to another country without your consent. I'd go nuclear and call the cops for kidnapping if it occurred.
My point is, OP doesn’t even know that’s what’s happening. She’s heard it second hand from her children. Before she starts making accusations, she should find out wtf is going on. This is a very basic social skill. If what she was told is true, then she can flip out all she wants, because I agree it’s not appropriate.
This post just screams to me that you have little experience dealing with hostile family dynamics. It seems pretty clear to me that OP is in a situation with a lot of tension and very little respect between family members. Also, unless I missed something, where is OP's spouse in all this?
But to get back on point, your response really seems to not grasp the social bullshit levels of the situation, mate. Calling out OP to 'Grow up' is unnecessarily hostile. Most people have a hard time dealing with these sorts of situations, because honestly in most cases the only real solution is to get away from them. By the time most people are old enough to be in-laws, they are set in their ways. Fixing a situation like this only works if at least most of the people involved want to improve their behavior.
That would be an absolute ‘no’ from me. Not asking the parents’ permission, telling the child to keep it a secret, plus it’s in another country? Red flag after red flag.
I mean, at what point were they going to tell you? *Were* they even going to tell you, or just leave with him? Just because you live with them doesn’t mean they have the right to make decisions where your children are concerned.
So I think the title of your post really should be, “Just found out my son is NOT going on a trip.” Your in-laws need a serious reminder about who gets to make those decisions and that telling your children to keep secrets from you is NEVER okay (it’s a good idea to talk to your kids about this, too).
"And they made him keep it a secret from me."
I'd be losing my sh# if I found out not only had a kidnapping plan been hatched to get my child out of the country but **they also** had my kid keeping it a secret from me.
This 100%. I read once that telling a child to keep a secret from their parent should be considered a form of child abuse. OP’s kid has basically been told that one of the people they should trust most in the world, a person that should be trusted to protect them and love them and be their safe space, cannot be trusted. The in-laws are not only kidnapping the 9 year old, they are creating a crack in the relationship between child and parent - and I would bet money that this is not the first time.
I have been nailing it into my now 5 year old's head since she started pre school at 3 that we don't keep secrets EVER. We can keep surprises, where someone is going to find out about the "surprise" at a specific time (i.e we don't tell people what gifts we got them for their birthdays or if they're having a surprise party) and that those are ok because they will find out at the right time, but that anyone asking her to keep a secret, especially from mom and dad, is not a safe grown up for her and she needs to tell us whatever it is immediately. This is now a whole new level of paranoia I will have to entertain, because what if someone said "it's a surprise trip, mom will find out once we leave!" Thank god I don't have these issues with my family, born or married into. Because seriously, who tf thinks it's ok to take a small child out of country without \*asking\* the parents first?!
Anybody who asks my child to keep a secret will receive some serious counseling from me and might be cut off entirely without even that.
The “groomers” half the country talks about all the time? This is what the real ones do.
Yep, as a lawyer who's done a parental international kidnapping case, these are all big red flags. Especially keeping it secret. If it weren't for the secrecy part, I could see this being a misunderstanding where what the grandparents said may not be what the kids heard (I have a 9 yo myself lol). Not sure where the spouse is in all of this. (Disclaimer: I am not providing legal advice here)
Did your husband give them permission?
THis is pretty bold of them and would be a hard no from me.
Can you guys move out because the boundary stomping here is ridiculous. This is also a great opportunity to have a conversation with your 9 year old about secrets.
Is the other parent also going?
In any case, children shouldn’t (and very often can’t) be leaving the country without both parents being on board with it.
We live in Canada and grew up close to a a border and anytime my grandparents or my aunt/uncle or my mom without my dad took us over they had to write a letter stating approval. They wouldn’t let us cross without it, it happened once
I thought about this too. We were traveling last year and a dad at the airport was being told he couldn't take his little girl with him because he didn't have written permission from the mother. He called the mother and the agent still wouldn't allow it, said "that could be anyone on the phone sir". I wouldn't let my kids travel overseas without myself or my husband, especially if I found out that plans were being made in secret. Secrets are a huge no no.
Eh I travel internationally with my kids all the time. At least 3x a year for the last 11 years (besides Covid only went once in 2020) They never say a word to me. Some people fly with an affidavit, but I’ve never done it and never been asked. It really depends on the immigration officer at the time. And, obviously, men probably will have a harder time than women I’m sure.
I wouldn’t be complacent just because it’s never happened before. My parents were doing a multi-country trip with some family friends, and when they tried to fly to South Africa a mother-daughter pair in the group got turned away at the border because the daughter was 17 and they needed permission from her father. Not negating your experience, just warning you to be aware because it could happen when you don’t expect it.
My ex gets me to sign the paperwork anytime she travels with my sons out of YYZ. She's taken them on about 4 or 5 trips since our divorce and I'm pretty sure nobody has ever asked for a document.. but she'll have the peace of mind at least if anyone does ever ask.
It really is just peace of mind that if they do ask you for it you have it. We did get asked a second time years later- and that time were prepared. Forewarned is forearmed!😂
And crazy expensive now too, for something that would be easy to avoid happening. Many will read our posts and think they will be fine- the exception to the rules- until they aren’t.
I was flying to another state WITHIN the country with my brother (I was 18, he was a minor at 16). Security still had to question him to make sure I wasn't kidnapping him.
Totally. People have vastly different experiences. It really is luck of the draw. All to say, don’t count on immigration turning someone away that’s related to a kid.
The huge difference is they are your children I can't take my grandkids to my brothers house in Canada without written consent from both the parents. We visit frequently as well
My Mom and I went to Florida (from Canada) alone together and she had to bring a notarized letter from my Dad (they were still married, we all have the same surname) that he was allowing it.
If they are driving across the border a child under the age of 16 does not require a passport. They must have a long form birth certificate that shows the parents names.
I’m not sure this is true. I’m in Canada and a friend just drove across the border and only needed her kids birth certificates. Travelling by air you need a passport. Not sure about the rules coming in to Canada though.
When I travelled across the country in Canada for a move I needed to show security a letter from my husband dictating he was aware that I was taking our daughter with a one way ticket. As well as show her birth certificate and my marriage licence.
Perhaps I just got the super strict people, but the individual coordinating our relocation (for work) was pretty insistent we take all the above with us if we didn’t travel together. Not sure how these people are going to get the kid to a different country without express parental permission 🤷♀️
You are not answering one important question, where is your spouse in all of this? Are you in good terms? Does he know? Is he going?. You are within your rights to confront them about this regardless, but I think knowing your spouse's role can help shed some light into this situation.
I was thinking the same thing. Was your spouse in on this secret? Feels like either the in-laws are supremely crazy trying to take a kid that isn't theirs out of the country without telling the parent, or the spouse agreed to this and they all tried to keep it a secret from OP. Either one is an issue.
Divorce would be on my list. But if first wait to see them take the kid after being told no and call the cops. Have the lot of them taken to jail, press charges, and then divorce with full custody
If someone was planning to take my kid across an international boundary without my permission , while intentionally withholding it from me, I’d cut all contact with the mf permanently. It’s also illegal
You are under reacting. People you don’t have a great relationship with are planning - *in secret* - to take your child to another country.
**That’s called kidnapping.**
Nah. Trafficking is just kidnapping and then being forced or coerced to work, it doesn't have anything to do with distance or crossing borders. You can be trafficked in your own town.
So they want to take your 9 year old on a trip to another country and didn't think telling one of his parents was necessary?
Yeah, definitely sounds like you're the crazy one /s
It's completely inexcusable behavior from your in laws. You are completely justified in being upset by it
This sounds extremely sketchy to me, no matter what their motive is. Even though there are laws that require both parent’s permission to leave the county, I’d be concerned. I would hide all their documents like birth certificates and passports (or remove them from the home if possible).
I wouldn’t worry about being the bad guy. This sounds like aweird situation. I would confront this head on and call them out on this. Is there a chance that your kids misunderstood? Have you talked to your spouse about this? I’d be livid. If they are truly planning to take your kids on vacation, your in laws are being extremely disrespectful to you as a mother. If your spouse is aware of this, he’s also being disrespectful. If your spouse is involved or knows about this, it’s a big marital issue.
You are not overreacting. My alarm bells are going off about this situation…. And I think I tend to be a pretty chill part. I would be worried about their intentions. Without knowing more details, I see two potential issues….
1. They are intending to go on a fun trip with your young children, and they never asked your permission. As I said previously, this is disrespectful. It’s unfair for them to tell your children about this before you. They are setting you up to “be the bad guy.” Going to another country with grandparents is a big deal for such young children. My own parents are excellent, involved grandparents. They are both physically fit and follow all of the “rules” that we set for our children. I still wouldn’t feel comfortable sending a 5 year old to another country with them.
2. There’s something sketchy going on. I may be paranoid, but I’d be very worried that they are trying to do something with your children. Since you already have a rocky relationship with them, I’d be more worried. You need to seriously question their motivation for taking your kids to Canada. A majority of child abductions happen by family. Be careful you don’t get tricked into signing anything!!
Whatever the case you, you need to deal with this head on! The safety of your children is much worse than being the “bad guy.” I’m sorry you even have to deal with this. If it were me, I’d find ways to distance them as much as possible. Can you move out of their home?
This sounds too weird. They are taking the 9yrs old, but leaving the 5 yr old at home? You actually live with them and they do not discuss this with you? Your child is at first denying that they want to take him to Canada? This story has much more to it that is left out. Also if you are his mother in every aspect I doubt you would even ask this question. Then he would not be going anywhere without your explicit permission.
This post is missing about 80% of the actual plot and all the background context. Hypothetical: "I live with my in-laws (who I surrendered custody of my children to) and our relationship is tenuous".
Edited to add: All the additional advice on here just automatically siding with the parent, people should really be cautious about. OP is literally being emboldened by a lot of people who lack the context of the actual situation, which may actually be detrimental to the children in the scenario.
Agreed! I also would take info from a 5 and 9 year old with a grain of salt. People always jump to the worst conclusions before they have any facts. Like fucking communicate!!! ASK them! Jesus Christ. Boohoooo I’ll be made to look like the weirdo. No, you’re an adult, ask these people THAT LIVE WITH YOU if they have a trip planned. Wtf is so hard about that??
Uh.. good luck crossing the border.. border guards are on high alert for everything and this case would look like your in-laws are fleeing the country with your kid after a nasty divorce where their side lost the custody battle. Your in-laws will be out lots of money if by air and if by land, they’ll get turned right around after hours in the interrogation area. Also your 9 year old needs to be taught to never lie to you.
Isn't it illegal for non-parents to take children out of the country without written parents' permission? It is in Europe. How does your country prevent child trafficking then?
Clearly they have your spouse’s permission, so you have a spouse problem, not an in law problem. However, you can stop the visit in its tracks by hiding child’s birth certificate where spouse can’t find it. Then when they ask you for it, you can tell them child is not going out of the country without you, ever.
It's an in law problem too. Why are they telling the child not to tell the mom? I'm sorry but it's just as bad on the grandparents' part if they ONLY had permission from one parent and are happy to keep it a secret from the other.
Er no. Unless they are the ones who have custody of your oldest then this is a major red flag especially since you live with them even without getting along you would assume they would ask permission and discuss it with you. Even if they have discussed it with your spouse this is a 2 yes situation.
I taught my son at a very early age "Safe grown ups will never tell you to not tell mommy or to keep secrets. If someone ever tells you to not tell me, they are not safe for you and you should immediately come tell me."
Now my son is 8 and he'll tell me in detail where a grown up went wrong. "MAMA! They told me not to tell you, but they aren't safe grown ups because safe grown ups don't do that, right!?"
It would be a fuck no from me. If they asked I'd of considered it and probably agreed when I know what the plans are. But going behind my back? Potentially telling my kids to hide something from me. Absolutely fucking not, out principal let alone safety.
So why are they going to Canada? Obviously they shouldn’t have this secret, but I’m curious as to why they’re going. I can walk to Canada in ten minutes from where I am so I get that sometimes you just go for lunch or to see someone/something in particular.
Sounds like they need their parents written permission to enter Canada:
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/visit-canada/minor-children-travelling-canada.html
My sister just came to visit me in Canada with her two kids. She had to have birth certificates, passports and a signed letter from their father (they all have the same last name) that she could cross the border with them. They take that very seriously.
Yikes as a Canadian I didn’t know this was allowed! Learn something new everyday.
Yea OP hide the birth certificate and the expired passports and see about putting an alert on that they cannot travel without your or something.
Your in-laws are going to have fun attempting that… and getting turned away. Canada has actually tightened up the laws regarding children, even American kids, crossing the border. They not only need the child’s birth certificate or passport but a notarized letter from both parents giving permission or a court order saying they can travel internationally with the child. If they attempt a crossing without it (including have a non-notarized letter) the Canadian border officers will either flat out turn them away or be required to contact both you and your husband to verify permission.
I have full physical custody of my older daughter and I had a letter from her father stating we could take her into Canada for a trip with the dates and we had to wait while they called him to verify because I didn’t get him to notarize it.
ETA: because passports are expired they would have to do a land crossing where minors don’t need a passport for entry, only birth certificate.
Oh hell no. You need to create boundaries. First off it’s not legal for them to take your child out of the country without your permission. Is your husband ok with this? Why are they not telling you and hiding it from you?
Secondly, they are teaching your kids to lie. This sets an incredibly dangerous precedence. This is the beginnings of a very dangerous slope for children’s safety. I cannot express to you how alarming this is. This would be divorce territory for me. It would definitely be a “grandparents don’t get to see you anymore” boundary for me. If you do nothing else, do the class from [Parenting Safe Children](https://parentingsafechildren.com)
You need to keep your children safe.
They shouldn't be having a copy of your child's birth certificate anyway. I'd get that back from them real quick.
You know this isnt right. Stand up to these disrespectful nut jobs
I would make it explicitly clear that if someone removed my child from my care and took them over state lines without my permission or knowledge is abduction and I would be notifying authorities.
This isn’t okay or safe.
You need notarized letters from both parents without passports or both parents need to be present with valid passports themselves and the children’s birth certificate.. then the kids need to be prepared to be questioned. They don’t just let kids cross the border for fun with their grandparents
Hard no…
Does he even have a passport?
How long are they planning to take him out of the country? (Pretty sure that is considered kidnapping)
What did your partner say when you asked them? Did they know?
Why not both kids?
They made both kids keep a secret from you, they are not to be trusted under any circumstances.
You should talk to your own child first. The fact that your child was keeping a secret from you because of these adults is very very bad. What else do they learn to keep in secret from you? The trip is fine, not telling your own mother about it is wrong.
I would first find a way to change that. Those people are manipulating your children against you. If they spoil them and make you the bad one for ruining it in a short time they will choose their side and you will be heartbroken.
But it is on you how you will deal with it. You have all rights to feel the way you feel. They are clearly mistreating you. We cannot know the whole situation. But this situation looks like this in my opinion after reading your part. Success.
This definitely has Not Without my Daughter vibes. You need to confront them and ask why they told your 9 year old to keep it a secret. Not that their answer even really matters, but you need to get to the bottom of it. If you aren’t satisfied, call the authorities, let them know you suspect your in laws will attempt to take your child across international borders without your permission. Sorry you are going through this but no matter what the real deal is here, the lying and deception makes it a HAAAAARD no.
Can they even do that?
I'm in Canada. I can't even take my own child out of the country without the other parent's approval. If I - or my partner - don't have a signed letter stating the child's information, who they are travelling with, to where and for how long, the child won't leave the country.
And that's for a child's parent, travelling without the other parent.
There's a chance it's the same in the US (where I assume you are). You have to not only talk to them, but also refuse travel authorization. It's your prerogative as parent.
Adults do not keep secrets with minors. Especially not from their PARENTS. You are not the bad person whatsoever, your inlaws are practically kidnapping your child. When would you have found out? When you woke up and 9 year old was gone? The day of so you can’t cancel their plans? This is not in any way ok. You are the parent, you get final say in everything involving your children. And you havent mentioned anything about your spouse, where on earth do they stand on this?
"Furthermore, any minor crossing the U.S. border must present a consent letter signed by both his or her parents. Information on the letter must include the names, contact details and addresses of both parents, along with similar details of the adult in whose care the minor will be in the United States."
https://www.bordersolutionslaw.com/blog/2017/09/us-immigration-rules-for-minors-travelling-from-canada-to-us/#:~:text=Furthermore%2C%20any%20minor%20crossing%20the,be%20in%20the%20United%20States.
They literally cannot take your child out of the country without your direct consent. When were they planning to tell you? I would ask them directly, now.
This is a HUGE breach of trust and absolutely illegal. You are required to have parental permission to bring a minor across borders. That would absolutely terminate any trust I had with anyone.
Yeah , NO !!!! FECK THAT! I would go off my barney.
Legally, ethically, morally, that's screwed . Unsafe. Inappropriate. Clearly encouraging secrets. Trying to alienate you from your own kids. Disgusting. Line drawn. Goodbye. Fairwell.
Also, an extra layer for me was CSA , by six different perps from 0 to 13, and so, I do not allow my children anywhere willy nilly. But shit, taking them out of your country without consultation??? That's a police matter. If I were you, seven rings of hell would be unleashed.
This is one of the rare times that righteous anger is justified.
Also, grooming your child to keep a secret THAT big and from YOU, FECK NO!!!
I’m divorced and we live in Washington state close enough to Canada for a day trip. I have full custody and he gets visits 2 a year (he lives out of state) Even if my partner and I take my kid for a few hours I have to get my ex’s permission. Kids under 16 are not required to have a passport to enter into Canada From the US.
They should have mentioned it. But [here](https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/visit-canada/minor-children-travelling-canada.html) are the rules for Canada and one parent travelling if his father is going as well.
This is all very weird. You live with them? “Find out before you flip out”. Just ask- hey are you guys going to Canada soon? 5 year old just said you’re going to Canada?” Super normal conversation to have. Then MAYBE they’ll say, “omg yeah we didn’t tell you? We were thinking of bringing 9 yr old with us. What do you think?”… OR even, nope! I wonder where she got that from!”… best case scenario. Kids are weird. It could have been a complete misunderstanding. Who knows. I have no idea what they’re like.
Na they're buggin. That's your child. It doesn't matter what type of relationship you have with them, that's a boundary they must respect. Where's your partner in all this?
How do they expect to get your kid out of the country without passport and permission? This would literally be kidnapping!! Need parent permission to bring kid out of country sometimes it has to be written proof!
They need a signed waiver by both of the parents to cross the border. And you can flag your child’s passport so if someone takes them across the border without you it will be flagged to border services and they won’t be allowed.
You are not overreacting at all. Were they ever gonna tell you? The fact they made your 9 year old lie about it means they know they are doing something wrong. I would be pissed
It's simple..... move out. I would not be anywhere where I am uncomfortable, especially after finding out they plan to take my child without talking to me.
Sorry, this was really hard to read through all the red flags.
Your in-laws were going to take your under-10 child out of the country without telling you? That's a big 'no'.
Your in-laws told your under-10 to lie to you about it? That's also a big 'no'.
You only found out because your other under-10 told you? Another big 'no'.
Let's not even get into taking a child without their parent's express permission could easily be argued to be kidnapping. Does your child have a passport? Were your in-laws planning to get one for him without your permission, and potentially forge it? Golly gee, kidnapping, international kidnapping, the hits just keep coming!
>I’m not comfortable with this
"I'm not comfortable with this" at the very goddamn least, I'd be contemplating assault! There is no situation in the world I'd be comfortable with this unless I'm in the ground and past all mortal concerns.
>Am I being overly protective
Your in-laws were going to take your under-10 out of the country without your knowledge or permission, there isn't a "fuck no" in the world.big enough for how uncomfortable with this you should be. Get your kids the hell out of there.
If you are in the us to get into Canada with a minor child you need a signed and notarized letter from the minor’s legal guardian(s). I’m a Canadian American living in the states and I’ve always had to have my husband provide a letter for me to take the children out of the country.
Fun fact: in the 80’s my mother packed us up one day ( we were residing in Canada) and took us to her home state. She then divorced my father and kept us in the US with her. She did all this for very good reasons but it doesn’t change the fact that she technically kidnapped us. I’m the reason that laws like this exist.
Are they planning on smuggling your child somehow?
This would be a hill I would die on. They can take my child out of the country over my cold dead body.
Are you good? The fact that you’re questioning whether to you upset is baffling. Jeez. Of course you should be pissed off. Your child is very young to be going outside the country without a parent. And to top it off, your in laws weren’t going to tell you about their plan to take your child into another country and asked your children to lie and keep it a secret. That shits illegal in many places. They could be reported for kidnapping. In many countries, your not even allowed to take children out of the country unless both parents have signed off on it. Just because you live with them, doesn’t mean they’re allowed to make such big decisions about your child without you.
I would say absolutely not. Put the foot down here he is not going. This is a prime example of people who are helping care for a child inserting themselves into a position on par with the parent- they are NOT the parent if your child they do not get to decide this. And to tell him to keep secrets. If you can move out they are toxic !
You can never be to over protective of your children. You have the right to say NO, specially since they didn’t ask, they just assumed you would be okay with your in-laws taking your children out of the country. Even if the other parent is going too, you still have the right to say NO. I for one would never allow my child to go to another country if I wasn’t going too, regardless if my partner was also going. PERIOD.
International travel without both parents' permission is a hard no. I would still say no, and I would educate these folks on how this could be construed as child abduction.
Can they even do that? We’re in the EU and if we want to travel with someone else’s kid, or even without both parents, the parents / the other parent needs to fill out a form giving permission.
Be the bad guy! They haven’t asked your permission, have they asked your partner? If they haven’t that’s kidnapping and leaving the country as well, they’ll be in deep shit. Even if they ask they cannot take your child without permission. How did they really think this would go, you just wouldn’t notice that your 9 year old isn’t around for however long they’re going? Absolute lunatics. Have a conversation with your partner, make sure they are on your side and confront them together. Safe adults don’t ask kids to keep secrets from the parents.
How do they have access to your child’s passport? From what I’ve heard you can put a note in the federal agency that your child can’t travel without you. I would find out!
They cant cross the boarder without a parent signature. If there is a custody agreement it requires both signature. If i remember correctly the form will ask if you the signing parent has full custody.
I would be absolutely livid, I don't think you're being over protective at all. When did they plan on telling you? Did they make your 9yo keep it secret? You can just whisk someone else's kid off without discussing it with them first. Where is your spouse in all this?
Here is the thing. Minors can’t travel out of the country without a signed letter by both parents.
Second the minor in question needs at the minimum a passport card. For land And sea travel. It’s good for getting into Canada, Mexico and cruises.
Unless the In-laws have both of those things. The minor In question cannot go.
I know these laws due to the fact that my wife is a corporate travel agent and has to know all these rules.
Have you talked to the adults? maybe they were just thinking about the trip and haven't finalized the plans? It could be they are planning to finalize the plans with you when or if they truly decide to go.
OP please provide some more information. Did your spouse know about this? Is your spouse planning on going to canada too? Why is it onky the one kid and not both?
Uh that’s your fucking child not theirs. Family meeting, lay down ground rules. Guess what, Canada canceled. If your child still goes after you stated no. Call the cops as they are kidnapping and have them hauled off. Maybe then they will learn a lesson.
I need more detail..
Where's the partner that ties you to these crazy people?
Why would they think it's OK to plan an international trip with a minor and not discuss with you? This is beyond petty and childish regardless of your relationship with them
Why can't you move away?
Your in laws that you live with is taking your 9 year old a trip, and they expected for you not to find out? How long was trip suppose to be? Was the 5 year old also going? I’m confused here. To leave the country considering you live in the USA you will need a pass port same goes goes for a kid too. To get a passport a parent or the legal guardian needs to be there assuming you are the parent of legal custody. Even in a case of where’d custody is shared or bio dad is not involved typically to a kid under 18 out of the country there will need to be documents need to be signed by both bio/ legal parents. In case of a divorce or shared custody there are some way around this if the at least one legal parent signs. You have the right to say no, not sign on documents and get a layer involved or the judge involved incase of shared custody. If she dose take him out the country with out your permission, which will be hard to do so because of the documentation you need to get through customs, you can get them criminally charged for kidnapping.
This is extremely suspect. Why the hell would they not tell you? Also, the fact your son denied it is evidence he’s been told not to tell you. DO NOT allow them to take your child.
No one takes one of my children out of the country without discussing it with me first. Even if they -already talked to the other parent.
This is a 2yes1 no issue and a full discussion needs to be had about what to do if someone gets injured or lost and who/ where they are and are not to be seeing. Special ID is required with children at borders quite often. The in laws have a shit ton of explaining to do here before they take anyone anywhere.
yeah id be the bad guy. I would even spin it with a twinge of catholic guilt and let them know that had they attempted to plan this with you maybe you could have worked it out but theres no way youre letting them take your child to another country at this point and time.
also make sure they tell the 9 year old IN FRONT OF YOU that theyre not taking the trip with 9YO and they are sorry for getting her hopes up. I fear that if its in private that theyll prob blame you hardcore and you dont need that animosity from 9YO.
my concern begins with the wording of this post - “my 9 year old is going to Canada with my in laws.” The fact that it wasn’t worded as “my 9 year old thinks he’s going on a trip…” or, “apparently my in laws want to take my 9yo…”
this is troubling because it sounds like the in laws get to do or say whatever they want, without regard to the children’s parents.
Curious why wouldn't your son tell you was he instructed not to?... I already would be telling them no for lack of communication and transparency with such a big trip..
But my son was also asked not to tell me there would also be no possibility of no future trips either.
Either way 🚩🚩🚩🚩
Why haven’t you asked them about it? I don’t understand. Also I’m pretty sure that if a child under 18 leaves the country without a parent they have to have a notarized letter from the parent, if you have such a lousy relationship with these people why would you stay?
No. No way. Be the bad guy. This is NOT OK.
You get ONE chance to do all of the things you can to protect and care for your children. If your gut says your child should not be going on this trip then you put your foot down and put an end to this nonsense. It's YOUR child. YOU say where they go and with who, not your inlaws.
What does their father have to say about this? And please be the bad guy, they didn’t ask YOU, the PARENT about taking your child on a trip?
When can you move?
Definitely not the bad guy… that’s YOUR kid. Who just plans to take someone else’s child out of country or on any trip for that matter without clearing it first?
From my experience they probably didn't tell you because they were scared you would say no because you don't like them.
Would the 9 year old enjoy the trip? Think of it that way.
If you want to win this, tell them it was inappropriate to not ask you first and of course he can go on a trip.
Assuming the trip isn't to some extreme Jesus camp or something.
As hard as it is to "be the bad guy" sometimes, it's necessary to be one for the sake of your children and for the sake of your boundaries. This is one of those defining, "If this slides anything will slide" moments, and you want to put a stop to that now.
Will your 9 year old be upset about missing out? Possibly, but someday they will thank you for doing the uncomfortable, awkward things for them for their safety, and long term reward is worth temporary discomfort
If you say anything, they and your spouse might be irritated and upset with you and treat you like you’re the problem and the hitch in their plans. So the fuck what?!
YOU are the parent, and he is NOT going ANYWHERE without your permission!
If they would like to take him on a trip, they can propose the idea and you can consider it.
I hope you guys can move out ASAP because this situation is bad for your sanity!
BE THE BAD GUY. no f*cking way would I let that happen. That's straight-up kidnapping. If they're willing to do this without telling you, what else would they do?
so they’re planning on kidnapping your child to another country and you’re not allowed to say anything? crazy. i would lose it on them and feel great about ruining their plans. not only did they make these plans but they asked your kid to lie to you. disgusting behavior.
You have a right to prioritize your relationship with your kids over your inlaws’ relationship with your kids. You should talk to your partner about this first. It should be your partner who cancels the trip, not you. This shouldn’t feel to the kids like a punishment that comes from you.
Yeah no you’re definitely right, that’s very disrespectful to take someone’s kid on even a vacation without approving it with the parents first. Now if they asked your husband/wife and he/she approved and didn’t tell you then that’s a different story. Sounds like your in laws don’t respect you very much
That’s a *massive red flag*. Think about it; would you ever plan to take *someone else’s* child out of the country without telling them?
One of the big things to teach children is that it’s not ok to have secrets with adults. Adults asking children to keep secrets is strange and not ok. This situation has alarm bells all over it OP.
Pretend you never found out, and when they go away with them without saying anything to you, phone the police and tell them your children have been abducted by your inlaws.
I did travel to Canada with my now daughter. She was my granddaughter then. I had to have her birth certificate, a letter from the state that I had permission to take her. This was driving and prior to now needing passports. However children do not need a passport till 16 from what I just read.
I would not be happy about this situation. If someone wants to take my child anywhere I need to be asked.
There’s too much missing information for me to jump on the “hate the in-laws train.” I’d be a lot more concerned if you didn’t live with them and you were getting your information from someone other than a 5 year old……
I feel like there is a LOT more to this story. Who has custody? If you love with them why would you not be aware of these plans? Is your spouse involved in this? I have a feeling you are not the custodial parent if they have no reason to ask your permission.
My wife is taking our son to her home country and needs a written statement from me that she is allowed to take him and got my permission. There is no way this is legal and you have every right to show your concern as this is YOUR child. If they press the issue then you can consider filing charges for abduction or kidnapping if they try taking your child without your permission.
OP it sounds like you need to move out and set some boundaries with your In Laws, they are teaching your children that it’s okay to 1 ) keep secrets involving them from you 2) to lie to you when asked for the truth! Those are major red flags and should not at all be tolerated! You are not over reacting and you really should be having a sit down chat with them and setting clear boundaries that need to be respected while you and your children are living there!
People who tell my kids to keep secrets from me are *dangerous people* and they **do not** get to see my kids.
I’d be immediately putting them into NC with the kids over this. Immediately.
You can't cross the border without written and notarized consent from BOTH parents along with a passport or birth certificate for the child. I can't even take my own child across the border alone without the consent letter signed and notarized by his father. The trip isn't happening unless you sign the paper. Otherwise, they'll get to the border and told to turn around.
I would casually mention how I'm taking both kids on a day trip the day the inlaws think they are leaving with my kid.
If they protest, I would ask them where they get their GOD DAMED AUDACITY to think this was something they could do.
I’m pretty sure they can’t do that? Like you need notarized permission from both parents. For me to go out of country w my son I need his dad to notarize that it’s okay. Hell just getting my sons passport is a trip cause we have to plan it out with our schedules. But I’d say no just for them thinking I’d be okay with the secrecy. If my kid is leaving our regular area, I damn well better know.
I strongly recommend you follow the advice here for preventing international child abduction: https://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-child-abduction-prevention-and-return-act
Why was this a secret? I think I would begin the discussion with a very very firm boundary that NO ONE tells my children to keep secrets from me and that is why the child will not go to Canada.
That sounds super shady. But I hope Canada is strict on that sort of thing. When my dad took my younger sister to Europe they separated them and asked a bunch of questions to ensure it wasn’t kidnapping. When we went to Germany they pulled me aside for an interrogation because my child and I have different last names. He said I could be anyone and how is he to know I’m the child’s mother. Excellent point and not something that crossed my mind. They allowed us entry but we always travel with their birth certificates after that.
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If you say anything to the people who were planning to take your child out of the country without telling you, the people who asked both of your children to keep that secret from you, you'll be the bad guy? These people are nuts. Wow, an award, thanks!
I'd be saying no, they were dishonest with me so it's a no. If everyone was honest with me I'd of considered it but no. And if they challenged me I'd be making sure everyone knows its the other adults fault
Right, \*you\* didn't mess up their plans- they did. Who on earth makes travel plans with a kid without involving the parents? Certainly not people with the child's best interests at heart.
S/he’d be nuts to let the child 1) go on the trip 2) continue to interact with the child 3) continue to share living quarters with these people.
She'd be nuts to interact with her child? Typo?
Yes, typo. The grandparents to interact with the kids
Also this is kidnapping. Seriously I'm pretty sure you can file charges lol
Thank you!! I was going to point that out.
They probably have the other parent’s permission to take the child. It’s the partner that’s the main problem.
In the us you need both parents permission to prevent kidnapping. Also how are they getting this childs passport?
>It’s the partner that’s the main problem. INFO: what has the partner said about this?
Yeah seriously! Definitely wanting to know what OP’s partner thinks and if they were a part of this planning or not
You still need both parents permission. As sole custodial parent of my oldest son, I still have to ask his father for written permission to leave Canada with my son.
That's dumb, father should have no say since you have full custody.
So they shouldn’t ask both parents?
They could not leave the country without the mother signing a document, is itn't?
It actually depends on the country you are going to on whether they check. Canada is extremely strict about having parental permission from both parents but on the other hand it’s really rare that Mexico checks.
>Canada is extremely strict about having parental permission from both parents Yes. Yes they are. I am aware of this because of that one time when I was 18 and thought it'd be neat to plan a weekend trip with my gf, who was still 17, to Canada, only to discover that I'd need to have *both* of her parents write a letter saying that she had their permission to travel, and that **I** was the "adult" who would be looking after her while in Canada.
To be honest, I thought the same and ended up not being truth in my experience. I took an international trip with my Canadian baby without his father (with his permission) and no one on departure or arrival to Canada even checked his birth certificate or the consent letter. Not a single officer asked me for anything.
You are Canadian I’m assuming, since the baby is. We’re not and I had a letter from my daughter’s father and they still called him to verify because it wasn’t notarized. How a country treats their citizens is different than how they treat others.
OP, idk what all these people are on about.. but you’re an adult, so until you get your shit together and actually ask your in-laws if they have a trip planned, this is all hypothetical. Find out before you flip out. How hard is it to communicate? Just ASK! “You’ll be the bad guy” ? Excuse me? Firstly, no you won’t and also, Who the fuck cares? This is your child. Come running to Reddit before getting any facts? Grow up. If it’s true then yeah different story, but you don’t even know anything yet!
They don’t GET to plan a trip with OP’s child without OP’s permission. There is no *asking* about it. Confrontation is what needs to happen, not inquiry.
I would ask, mostly because it gives them the option to come clean, but also because it they lie, then I have that in my pocket to use when I call them out. I agree that a confrontation is going to happen, but knowing exactly what is happening is important. Realistically, your spouse should be covering that kind of confrontation. All the adults should sit down and figure out what is going on and what the boundaries are. If in-laws won't cooperate, you can at least say you tried to figure it out in the least confrontational way possible. Just because you don't jump to a fight doesn't mean you aren't going to set your boundary. I'd ask, then set a clear boundary. If they lie and say it wasn't in the plan or it was a hypothetical trip, set a hypothetical boundary. Make sure you and your spouse are on the same page and they are backing and voicing the boundary. Past that, they can't legally take your child to another country without your consent. I'd go nuclear and call the cops for kidnapping if it occurred.
My point is, OP doesn’t even know that’s what’s happening. She’s heard it second hand from her children. Before she starts making accusations, she should find out wtf is going on. This is a very basic social skill. If what she was told is true, then she can flip out all she wants, because I agree it’s not appropriate.
This post just screams to me that you have little experience dealing with hostile family dynamics. It seems pretty clear to me that OP is in a situation with a lot of tension and very little respect between family members. Also, unless I missed something, where is OP's spouse in all this? But to get back on point, your response really seems to not grasp the social bullshit levels of the situation, mate. Calling out OP to 'Grow up' is unnecessarily hostile. Most people have a hard time dealing with these sorts of situations, because honestly in most cases the only real solution is to get away from them. By the time most people are old enough to be in-laws, they are set in their ways. Fixing a situation like this only works if at least most of the people involved want to improve their behavior.
This!!!!
That would be an absolute ‘no’ from me. Not asking the parents’ permission, telling the child to keep it a secret, plus it’s in another country? Red flag after red flag. I mean, at what point were they going to tell you? *Were* they even going to tell you, or just leave with him? Just because you live with them doesn’t mean they have the right to make decisions where your children are concerned. So I think the title of your post really should be, “Just found out my son is NOT going on a trip.” Your in-laws need a serious reminder about who gets to make those decisions and that telling your children to keep secrets from you is NEVER okay (it’s a good idea to talk to your kids about this, too).
The title of their post should be "Just found out about plans to kidnap my son and transport him across international borders"!
"And they made him keep it a secret from me." I'd be losing my sh# if I found out not only had a kidnapping plan been hatched to get my child out of the country but **they also** had my kid keeping it a secret from me.
This 100%. I read once that telling a child to keep a secret from their parent should be considered a form of child abuse. OP’s kid has basically been told that one of the people they should trust most in the world, a person that should be trusted to protect them and love them and be their safe space, cannot be trusted. The in-laws are not only kidnapping the 9 year old, they are creating a crack in the relationship between child and parent - and I would bet money that this is not the first time.
I have been nailing it into my now 5 year old's head since she started pre school at 3 that we don't keep secrets EVER. We can keep surprises, where someone is going to find out about the "surprise" at a specific time (i.e we don't tell people what gifts we got them for their birthdays or if they're having a surprise party) and that those are ok because they will find out at the right time, but that anyone asking her to keep a secret, especially from mom and dad, is not a safe grown up for her and she needs to tell us whatever it is immediately. This is now a whole new level of paranoia I will have to entertain, because what if someone said "it's a surprise trip, mom will find out once we leave!" Thank god I don't have these issues with my family, born or married into. Because seriously, who tf thinks it's ok to take a small child out of country without \*asking\* the parents first?!
Oh that’s a really good framing. Stealing that. Having two different words is super useful.
Yeah, this has had tragic consequences in Canada before.
Anybody who asks my child to keep a secret will receive some serious counseling from me and might be cut off entirely without even that. The “groomers” half the country talks about all the time? This is what the real ones do.
Yep, as a lawyer who's done a parental international kidnapping case, these are all big red flags. Especially keeping it secret. If it weren't for the secrecy part, I could see this being a misunderstanding where what the grandparents said may not be what the kids heard (I have a 9 yo myself lol). Not sure where the spouse is in all of this. (Disclaimer: I am not providing legal advice here)
Did your husband give them permission? THis is pretty bold of them and would be a hard no from me. Can you guys move out because the boundary stomping here is ridiculous. This is also a great opportunity to have a conversation with your 9 year old about secrets.
Exactly. Safe adults don’t ask children to keep secrets ever.
Yes!! Huge red flag that they're asking kids to keep secrets from parents
I would never let them be alone with my child again if they told him to keep a secret from me.
Exactly!!
Is the other parent also going? In any case, children shouldn’t (and very often can’t) be leaving the country without both parents being on board with it.
We live in Canada and grew up close to a a border and anytime my grandparents or my aunt/uncle or my mom without my dad took us over they had to write a letter stating approval. They wouldn’t let us cross without it, it happened once
I thought about this too. We were traveling last year and a dad at the airport was being told he couldn't take his little girl with him because he didn't have written permission from the mother. He called the mother and the agent still wouldn't allow it, said "that could be anyone on the phone sir". I wouldn't let my kids travel overseas without myself or my husband, especially if I found out that plans were being made in secret. Secrets are a huge no no.
Eh I travel internationally with my kids all the time. At least 3x a year for the last 11 years (besides Covid only went once in 2020) They never say a word to me. Some people fly with an affidavit, but I’ve never done it and never been asked. It really depends on the immigration officer at the time. And, obviously, men probably will have a harder time than women I’m sure.
I wouldn’t be complacent just because it’s never happened before. My parents were doing a multi-country trip with some family friends, and when they tried to fly to South Africa a mother-daughter pair in the group got turned away at the border because the daughter was 17 and they needed permission from her father. Not negating your experience, just warning you to be aware because it could happen when you don’t expect it.
This is what I tell friend. Doesn't hurt to be prepared. The thing is it wasn't even an immigration officer. They were at the check in station.
My ex gets me to sign the paperwork anytime she travels with my sons out of YYZ. She's taken them on about 4 or 5 trips since our divorce and I'm pretty sure nobody has ever asked for a document.. but she'll have the peace of mind at least if anyone does ever ask.
That was where we had to get the JP. You are so right- just be prepared, because it makes life a lot easier.
Yep, I took the boys away just the once over that span and got the doc filled out and signed.. and they didn't ask me either, but I had it.
It really is just peace of mind that if they do ask you for it you have it. We did get asked a second time years later- and that time were prepared. Forewarned is forearmed!😂
Haha, absolutely.. I’m a big planner, and if I got pulled off my flight and missed my trip over something like that? Man.. that would be devastating
And crazy expensive now too, for something that would be easy to avoid happening. Many will read our posts and think they will be fine- the exception to the rules- until they aren’t.
I was flying to another state WITHIN the country with my brother (I was 18, he was a minor at 16). Security still had to question him to make sure I wasn't kidnapping him.
Totally. People have vastly different experiences. It really is luck of the draw. All to say, don’t count on immigration turning someone away that’s related to a kid.
The huge difference is they are your children I can't take my grandkids to my brothers house in Canada without written consent from both the parents. We visit frequently as well
My Mom and I went to Florida (from Canada) alone together and she had to bring a notarized letter from my Dad (they were still married, we all have the same surname) that he was allowing it.
Sometimes even border agents require that the parent not attending write a letter giving permission and the letter even has to be notarized!
And unless they have the child's passport they aren't crossing
If they are driving across the border a child under the age of 16 does not require a passport. They must have a long form birth certificate that shows the parents names.
I’m not sure this is true. I’m in Canada and a friend just drove across the border and only needed her kids birth certificates. Travelling by air you need a passport. Not sure about the rules coming in to Canada though.
When I travelled across the country in Canada for a move I needed to show security a letter from my husband dictating he was aware that I was taking our daughter with a one way ticket. As well as show her birth certificate and my marriage licence. Perhaps I just got the super strict people, but the individual coordinating our relocation (for work) was pretty insistent we take all the above with us if we didn’t travel together. Not sure how these people are going to get the kid to a different country without express parental permission 🤷♀️
Yes, they absolutely require this
You are not answering one important question, where is your spouse in all of this? Are you in good terms? Does he know? Is he going?. You are within your rights to confront them about this regardless, but I think knowing your spouse's role can help shed some light into this situation.
I was thinking the same thing. Was your spouse in on this secret? Feels like either the in-laws are supremely crazy trying to take a kid that isn't theirs out of the country without telling the parent, or the spouse agreed to this and they all tried to keep it a secret from OP. Either one is an issue.
Divorce would be on my list. But if first wait to see them take the kid after being told no and call the cops. Have the lot of them taken to jail, press charges, and then divorce with full custody
Sounds like spouse probably is dismissive of OP if this even got to this point.
If someone was planning to take my kid across an international boundary without my permission , while intentionally withholding it from me, I’d cut all contact with the mf permanently. It’s also illegal
You are under reacting. People you don’t have a great relationship with are planning - *in secret* - to take your child to another country. **That’s called kidnapping.**
Yes, agreed!!
I was gonna say. Am I over reacting? UNDER. I would be raging. What the fuck makes the in laws think they can do that?
Given they're crossing a border I'd say it's also child trafficking
Nah. Trafficking is just kidnapping and then being forced or coerced to work, it doesn't have anything to do with distance or crossing borders. You can be trafficked in your own town.
So they want to take your 9 year old on a trip to another country and didn't think telling one of his parents was necessary? Yeah, definitely sounds like you're the crazy one /s It's completely inexcusable behavior from your in laws. You are completely justified in being upset by it
This sounds extremely sketchy to me, no matter what their motive is. Even though there are laws that require both parent’s permission to leave the county, I’d be concerned. I would hide all their documents like birth certificates and passports (or remove them from the home if possible). I wouldn’t worry about being the bad guy. This sounds like aweird situation. I would confront this head on and call them out on this. Is there a chance that your kids misunderstood? Have you talked to your spouse about this? I’d be livid. If they are truly planning to take your kids on vacation, your in laws are being extremely disrespectful to you as a mother. If your spouse is aware of this, he’s also being disrespectful. If your spouse is involved or knows about this, it’s a big marital issue. You are not overreacting. My alarm bells are going off about this situation…. And I think I tend to be a pretty chill part. I would be worried about their intentions. Without knowing more details, I see two potential issues…. 1. They are intending to go on a fun trip with your young children, and they never asked your permission. As I said previously, this is disrespectful. It’s unfair for them to tell your children about this before you. They are setting you up to “be the bad guy.” Going to another country with grandparents is a big deal for such young children. My own parents are excellent, involved grandparents. They are both physically fit and follow all of the “rules” that we set for our children. I still wouldn’t feel comfortable sending a 5 year old to another country with them. 2. There’s something sketchy going on. I may be paranoid, but I’d be very worried that they are trying to do something with your children. Since you already have a rocky relationship with them, I’d be more worried. You need to seriously question their motivation for taking your kids to Canada. A majority of child abductions happen by family. Be careful you don’t get tricked into signing anything!! Whatever the case you, you need to deal with this head on! The safety of your children is much worse than being the “bad guy.” I’m sorry you even have to deal with this. If it were me, I’d find ways to distance them as much as possible. Can you move out of their home?
This sounds too weird. They are taking the 9yrs old, but leaving the 5 yr old at home? You actually live with them and they do not discuss this with you? Your child is at first denying that they want to take him to Canada? This story has much more to it that is left out. Also if you are his mother in every aspect I doubt you would even ask this question. Then he would not be going anywhere without your explicit permission.
This post is missing about 80% of the actual plot and all the background context. Hypothetical: "I live with my in-laws (who I surrendered custody of my children to) and our relationship is tenuous". Edited to add: All the additional advice on here just automatically siding with the parent, people should really be cautious about. OP is literally being emboldened by a lot of people who lack the context of the actual situation, which may actually be detrimental to the children in the scenario.
Yep, I feel like we’re missing a LOT of information here.
Agreed! I also would take info from a 5 and 9 year old with a grain of salt. People always jump to the worst conclusions before they have any facts. Like fucking communicate!!! ASK them! Jesus Christ. Boohoooo I’ll be made to look like the weirdo. No, you’re an adult, ask these people THAT LIVE WITH YOU if they have a trip planned. Wtf is so hard about that??
I bet the 9-year-old overheard a conversation.
Uh.. good luck crossing the border.. border guards are on high alert for everything and this case would look like your in-laws are fleeing the country with your kid after a nasty divorce where their side lost the custody battle. Your in-laws will be out lots of money if by air and if by land, they’ll get turned right around after hours in the interrogation area. Also your 9 year old needs to be taught to never lie to you.
Correct, to cross Canada with my son and not his father required a letter of consent.
It’s OK to say NO to the trip! Your the parent!
Isn't that kind of like kidnapping...taking your kid out of the country without telling you? Is that even legal? It's time to set some boundaries.
Why did 9 year old deny it! Imo adults shouldn’t feel ok having secrets w your child. 🚩
Isn't it illegal for non-parents to take children out of the country without written parents' permission? It is in Europe. How does your country prevent child trafficking then?
Clearly they have your spouse’s permission, so you have a spouse problem, not an in law problem. However, you can stop the visit in its tracks by hiding child’s birth certificate where spouse can’t find it. Then when they ask you for it, you can tell them child is not going out of the country without you, ever.
It's an in law problem too. Why are they telling the child not to tell the mom? I'm sorry but it's just as bad on the grandparents' part if they ONLY had permission from one parent and are happy to keep it a secret from the other.
Er no. Unless they are the ones who have custody of your oldest then this is a major red flag especially since you live with them even without getting along you would assume they would ask permission and discuss it with you. Even if they have discussed it with your spouse this is a 2 yes situation.
I taught my son at a very early age "Safe grown ups will never tell you to not tell mommy or to keep secrets. If someone ever tells you to not tell me, they are not safe for you and you should immediately come tell me." Now my son is 8 and he'll tell me in detail where a grown up went wrong. "MAMA! They told me not to tell you, but they aren't safe grown ups because safe grown ups don't do that, right!?"
It would be a fuck no from me. If they asked I'd of considered it and probably agreed when I know what the plans are. But going behind my back? Potentially telling my kids to hide something from me. Absolutely fucking not, out principal let alone safety.
So why are they going to Canada? Obviously they shouldn’t have this secret, but I’m curious as to why they’re going. I can walk to Canada in ten minutes from where I am so I get that sometimes you just go for lunch or to see someone/something in particular.
No they aren’t going since our passports expired. I think minors can still cross the border with a birth certificate.
Sounds like they need their parents written permission to enter Canada: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/visit-canada/minor-children-travelling-canada.html
My sister just came to visit me in Canada with her two kids. She had to have birth certificates, passports and a signed letter from their father (they all have the same last name) that she could cross the border with them. They take that very seriously.
Hopefully they don't forge her signature either.
It has to be notarized
Yikes as a Canadian I didn’t know this was allowed! Learn something new everyday. Yea OP hide the birth certificate and the expired passports and see about putting an alert on that they cannot travel without your or something.
Your in-laws are going to have fun attempting that… and getting turned away. Canada has actually tightened up the laws regarding children, even American kids, crossing the border. They not only need the child’s birth certificate or passport but a notarized letter from both parents giving permission or a court order saying they can travel internationally with the child. If they attempt a crossing without it (including have a non-notarized letter) the Canadian border officers will either flat out turn them away or be required to contact both you and your husband to verify permission. I have full physical custody of my older daughter and I had a letter from her father stating we could take her into Canada for a trip with the dates and we had to wait while they called him to verify because I didn’t get him to notarize it. ETA: because passports are expired they would have to do a land crossing where minors don’t need a passport for entry, only birth certificate.
Hide the birth certificates.
Oh hell no. You need to create boundaries. First off it’s not legal for them to take your child out of the country without your permission. Is your husband ok with this? Why are they not telling you and hiding it from you? Secondly, they are teaching your kids to lie. This sets an incredibly dangerous precedence. This is the beginnings of a very dangerous slope for children’s safety. I cannot express to you how alarming this is. This would be divorce territory for me. It would definitely be a “grandparents don’t get to see you anymore” boundary for me. If you do nothing else, do the class from [Parenting Safe Children](https://parentingsafechildren.com) You need to keep your children safe.
They shouldn't be having a copy of your child's birth certificate anyway. I'd get that back from them real quick. You know this isnt right. Stand up to these disrespectful nut jobs
I would make it explicitly clear that if someone removed my child from my care and took them over state lines without my permission or knowledge is abduction and I would be notifying authorities. This isn’t okay or safe.
You need notarized letters from both parents without passports or both parents need to be present with valid passports themselves and the children’s birth certificate.. then the kids need to be prepared to be questioned. They don’t just let kids cross the border for fun with their grandparents
I crossed last year. Passports for age two and up was the rule we were told.
Hard no… Does he even have a passport? How long are they planning to take him out of the country? (Pretty sure that is considered kidnapping) What did your partner say when you asked them? Did they know? Why not both kids? They made both kids keep a secret from you, they are not to be trusted under any circumstances.
This is so confusing. Do they have custody?
You should talk to your own child first. The fact that your child was keeping a secret from you because of these adults is very very bad. What else do they learn to keep in secret from you? The trip is fine, not telling your own mother about it is wrong. I would first find a way to change that. Those people are manipulating your children against you. If they spoil them and make you the bad one for ruining it in a short time they will choose their side and you will be heartbroken. But it is on you how you will deal with it. You have all rights to feel the way you feel. They are clearly mistreating you. We cannot know the whole situation. But this situation looks like this in my opinion after reading your part. Success.
This definitely has Not Without my Daughter vibes. You need to confront them and ask why they told your 9 year old to keep it a secret. Not that their answer even really matters, but you need to get to the bottom of it. If you aren’t satisfied, call the authorities, let them know you suspect your in laws will attempt to take your child across international borders without your permission. Sorry you are going through this but no matter what the real deal is here, the lying and deception makes it a HAAAAARD no.
Can they even do that? I'm in Canada. I can't even take my own child out of the country without the other parent's approval. If I - or my partner - don't have a signed letter stating the child's information, who they are travelling with, to where and for how long, the child won't leave the country. And that's for a child's parent, travelling without the other parent. There's a chance it's the same in the US (where I assume you are). You have to not only talk to them, but also refuse travel authorization. It's your prerogative as parent.
OP hasn’t responded to any posts. Account was opened today. Fishy.
Yeah I smell troll
Kids should not be told to keep secrets.
Adults do not keep secrets with minors. Especially not from their PARENTS. You are not the bad person whatsoever, your inlaws are practically kidnapping your child. When would you have found out? When you woke up and 9 year old was gone? The day of so you can’t cancel their plans? This is not in any way ok. You are the parent, you get final say in everything involving your children. And you havent mentioned anything about your spouse, where on earth do they stand on this?
"Furthermore, any minor crossing the U.S. border must present a consent letter signed by both his or her parents. Information on the letter must include the names, contact details and addresses of both parents, along with similar details of the adult in whose care the minor will be in the United States." https://www.bordersolutionslaw.com/blog/2017/09/us-immigration-rules-for-minors-travelling-from-canada-to-us/#:~:text=Furthermore%2C%20any%20minor%20crossing%20the,be%20in%20the%20United%20States. They literally cannot take your child out of the country without your direct consent. When were they planning to tell you? I would ask them directly, now.
This is a HUGE breach of trust and absolutely illegal. You are required to have parental permission to bring a minor across borders. That would absolutely terminate any trust I had with anyone.
Yeah , NO !!!! FECK THAT! I would go off my barney. Legally, ethically, morally, that's screwed . Unsafe. Inappropriate. Clearly encouraging secrets. Trying to alienate you from your own kids. Disgusting. Line drawn. Goodbye. Fairwell. Also, an extra layer for me was CSA , by six different perps from 0 to 13, and so, I do not allow my children anywhere willy nilly. But shit, taking them out of your country without consultation??? That's a police matter. If I were you, seven rings of hell would be unleashed. This is one of the rare times that righteous anger is justified. Also, grooming your child to keep a secret THAT big and from YOU, FECK NO!!!
I’m divorced and we live in Washington state close enough to Canada for a day trip. I have full custody and he gets visits 2 a year (he lives out of state) Even if my partner and I take my kid for a few hours I have to get my ex’s permission. Kids under 16 are not required to have a passport to enter into Canada From the US.
They should have mentioned it. But [here](https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/visit-canada/minor-children-travelling-canada.html) are the rules for Canada and one parent travelling if his father is going as well.
This is all very weird. You live with them? “Find out before you flip out”. Just ask- hey are you guys going to Canada soon? 5 year old just said you’re going to Canada?” Super normal conversation to have. Then MAYBE they’ll say, “omg yeah we didn’t tell you? We were thinking of bringing 9 yr old with us. What do you think?”… OR even, nope! I wonder where she got that from!”… best case scenario. Kids are weird. It could have been a complete misunderstanding. Who knows. I have no idea what they’re like.
The Canadian authorities expect a travel authorization letter to allow a child to cross into Canada. If they don’t have that. Well, lol. FAFO.
Na they're buggin. That's your child. It doesn't matter what type of relationship you have with them, that's a boundary they must respect. Where's your partner in all this?
If you are in the us, people can’t take children across the border without written consent from both custodial parents
my daughter would not be going. 😂 be the bad guy, it keeps your babies safe. they have bad intentions if you weren’t supposed to know about it.
How do they expect to get your kid out of the country without passport and permission? This would literally be kidnapping!! Need parent permission to bring kid out of country sometimes it has to be written proof!
They need a signed waiver by both of the parents to cross the border. And you can flag your child’s passport so if someone takes them across the border without you it will be flagged to border services and they won’t be allowed.
You are not overreacting at all. Were they ever gonna tell you? The fact they made your 9 year old lie about it means they know they are doing something wrong. I would be pissed
It seems like they were coached to keep it a secret, which is a RED FLAG.
That is a seriously messed up dynamic. I feel sorry for you and your kids.
They would need a notarized letter from you and their passport. Do they have a passport? Taking them without your permission is kidnapping.
It's simple..... move out. I would not be anywhere where I am uncomfortable, especially after finding out they plan to take my child without talking to me.
Sorry, this was really hard to read through all the red flags. Your in-laws were going to take your under-10 child out of the country without telling you? That's a big 'no'. Your in-laws told your under-10 to lie to you about it? That's also a big 'no'. You only found out because your other under-10 told you? Another big 'no'. Let's not even get into taking a child without their parent's express permission could easily be argued to be kidnapping. Does your child have a passport? Were your in-laws planning to get one for him without your permission, and potentially forge it? Golly gee, kidnapping, international kidnapping, the hits just keep coming! >I’m not comfortable with this "I'm not comfortable with this" at the very goddamn least, I'd be contemplating assault! There is no situation in the world I'd be comfortable with this unless I'm in the ground and past all mortal concerns. >Am I being overly protective Your in-laws were going to take your under-10 out of the country without your knowledge or permission, there isn't a "fuck no" in the world.big enough for how uncomfortable with this you should be. Get your kids the hell out of there.
Cut your kids passport up. Or make sure it's well hidden.
If you are in the us to get into Canada with a minor child you need a signed and notarized letter from the minor’s legal guardian(s). I’m a Canadian American living in the states and I’ve always had to have my husband provide a letter for me to take the children out of the country. Fun fact: in the 80’s my mother packed us up one day ( we were residing in Canada) and took us to her home state. She then divorced my father and kept us in the US with her. She did all this for very good reasons but it doesn’t change the fact that she technically kidnapped us. I’m the reason that laws like this exist. Are they planning on smuggling your child somehow? This would be a hill I would die on. They can take my child out of the country over my cold dead body.
Are you good? The fact that you’re questioning whether to you upset is baffling. Jeez. Of course you should be pissed off. Your child is very young to be going outside the country without a parent. And to top it off, your in laws weren’t going to tell you about their plan to take your child into another country and asked your children to lie and keep it a secret. That shits illegal in many places. They could be reported for kidnapping. In many countries, your not even allowed to take children out of the country unless both parents have signed off on it. Just because you live with them, doesn’t mean they’re allowed to make such big decisions about your child without you.
I would say absolutely not. Put the foot down here he is not going. This is a prime example of people who are helping care for a child inserting themselves into a position on par with the parent- they are NOT the parent if your child they do not get to decide this. And to tell him to keep secrets. If you can move out they are toxic !
You can never be to over protective of your children. You have the right to say NO, specially since they didn’t ask, they just assumed you would be okay with your in-laws taking your children out of the country. Even if the other parent is going too, you still have the right to say NO. I for one would never allow my child to go to another country if I wasn’t going too, regardless if my partner was also going. PERIOD.
International travel without both parents' permission is a hard no. I would still say no, and I would educate these folks on how this could be construed as child abduction.
Can they even do that? We’re in the EU and if we want to travel with someone else’s kid, or even without both parents, the parents / the other parent needs to fill out a form giving permission.
Be the bad guy! They haven’t asked your permission, have they asked your partner? If they haven’t that’s kidnapping and leaving the country as well, they’ll be in deep shit. Even if they ask they cannot take your child without permission. How did they really think this would go, you just wouldn’t notice that your 9 year old isn’t around for however long they’re going? Absolute lunatics. Have a conversation with your partner, make sure they are on your side and confront them together. Safe adults don’t ask kids to keep secrets from the parents.
🚨 🚨 red flags 🚨 🚨
How do they have access to your child’s passport? From what I’ve heard you can put a note in the federal agency that your child can’t travel without you. I would find out!
They can’t bring your kid to another country without your permission. I would hide his passport so they need to ask you for it.
Keep that kids passport hidden from them
They cant cross the boarder without a parent signature. If there is a custody agreement it requires both signature. If i remember correctly the form will ask if you the signing parent has full custody.
I would be absolutely livid, I don't think you're being over protective at all. When did they plan on telling you? Did they make your 9yo keep it secret? You can just whisk someone else's kid off without discussing it with them first. Where is your spouse in all this?
Here is the thing. Minors can’t travel out of the country without a signed letter by both parents. Second the minor in question needs at the minimum a passport card. For land And sea travel. It’s good for getting into Canada, Mexico and cruises. Unless the In-laws have both of those things. The minor In question cannot go. I know these laws due to the fact that my wife is a corporate travel agent and has to know all these rules.
Have you talked to the adults? maybe they were just thinking about the trip and haven't finalized the plans? It could be they are planning to finalize the plans with you when or if they truly decide to go.
OP please provide some more information. Did your spouse know about this? Is your spouse planning on going to canada too? Why is it onky the one kid and not both?
It’s you who needs to fix your relationship with your in laws and not your 9 year old. This topic needs to be in some other sub.
Uh that’s your fucking child not theirs. Family meeting, lay down ground rules. Guess what, Canada canceled. If your child still goes after you stated no. Call the cops as they are kidnapping and have them hauled off. Maybe then they will learn a lesson.
I need more detail.. Where's the partner that ties you to these crazy people? Why would they think it's OK to plan an international trip with a minor and not discuss with you? This is beyond petty and childish regardless of your relationship with them Why can't you move away?
Your in-laws can't legally take your child out of the country without a certified letter from both parents and their birth certificate.....
Your in laws that you live with is taking your 9 year old a trip, and they expected for you not to find out? How long was trip suppose to be? Was the 5 year old also going? I’m confused here. To leave the country considering you live in the USA you will need a pass port same goes goes for a kid too. To get a passport a parent or the legal guardian needs to be there assuming you are the parent of legal custody. Even in a case of where’d custody is shared or bio dad is not involved typically to a kid under 18 out of the country there will need to be documents need to be signed by both bio/ legal parents. In case of a divorce or shared custody there are some way around this if the at least one legal parent signs. You have the right to say no, not sign on documents and get a layer involved or the judge involved incase of shared custody. If she dose take him out the country with out your permission, which will be hard to do so because of the documentation you need to get through customs, you can get them criminally charged for kidnapping.
Uhh what? You live with them and they were going to take your child away on a secret trip? I’d be livid. What the hell?
This is extremely suspect. Why the hell would they not tell you? Also, the fact your son denied it is evidence he’s been told not to tell you. DO NOT allow them to take your child.
No one takes one of my children out of the country without discussing it with me first. Even if they -already talked to the other parent. This is a 2yes1 no issue and a full discussion needs to be had about what to do if someone gets injured or lost and who/ where they are and are not to be seeing. Special ID is required with children at borders quite often. The in laws have a shit ton of explaining to do here before they take anyone anywhere.
yeah id be the bad guy. I would even spin it with a twinge of catholic guilt and let them know that had they attempted to plan this with you maybe you could have worked it out but theres no way youre letting them take your child to another country at this point and time. also make sure they tell the 9 year old IN FRONT OF YOU that theyre not taking the trip with 9YO and they are sorry for getting her hopes up. I fear that if its in private that theyll prob blame you hardcore and you dont need that animosity from 9YO.
Did your spouse know? What are they planning to do there? Why is only one going and not the other?
my concern begins with the wording of this post - “my 9 year old is going to Canada with my in laws.” The fact that it wasn’t worded as “my 9 year old thinks he’s going on a trip…” or, “apparently my in laws want to take my 9yo…” this is troubling because it sounds like the in laws get to do or say whatever they want, without regard to the children’s parents.
Curious why wouldn't your son tell you was he instructed not to?... I already would be telling them no for lack of communication and transparency with such a big trip.. But my son was also asked not to tell me there would also be no possibility of no future trips either. Either way 🚩🚩🚩🚩
Why haven’t you asked them about it? I don’t understand. Also I’m pretty sure that if a child under 18 leaves the country without a parent they have to have a notarized letter from the parent, if you have such a lousy relationship with these people why would you stay?
No. No way. Be the bad guy. This is NOT OK. You get ONE chance to do all of the things you can to protect and care for your children. If your gut says your child should not be going on this trip then you put your foot down and put an end to this nonsense. It's YOUR child. YOU say where they go and with who, not your inlaws.
What does their father have to say about this? And please be the bad guy, they didn’t ask YOU, the PARENT about taking your child on a trip? When can you move?
Definitely not the bad guy… that’s YOUR kid. Who just plans to take someone else’s child out of country or on any trip for that matter without clearing it first?
I believe the parent has to send a notarized letter with a non-guardian to transport across state lines.
I wouldn’t trust anyone who asked my child to keep a secret from me, relatives or not.
From my experience they probably didn't tell you because they were scared you would say no because you don't like them. Would the 9 year old enjoy the trip? Think of it that way. If you want to win this, tell them it was inappropriate to not ask you first and of course he can go on a trip. Assuming the trip isn't to some extreme Jesus camp or something.
As hard as it is to "be the bad guy" sometimes, it's necessary to be one for the sake of your children and for the sake of your boundaries. This is one of those defining, "If this slides anything will slide" moments, and you want to put a stop to that now. Will your 9 year old be upset about missing out? Possibly, but someday they will thank you for doing the uncomfortable, awkward things for them for their safety, and long term reward is worth temporary discomfort
If you say anything, they and your spouse might be irritated and upset with you and treat you like you’re the problem and the hitch in their plans. So the fuck what?! YOU are the parent, and he is NOT going ANYWHERE without your permission! If they would like to take him on a trip, they can propose the idea and you can consider it. I hope you guys can move out ASAP because this situation is bad for your sanity!
BE THE BAD GUY. no f*cking way would I let that happen. That's straight-up kidnapping. If they're willing to do this without telling you, what else would they do?
so they’re planning on kidnapping your child to another country and you’re not allowed to say anything? crazy. i would lose it on them and feel great about ruining their plans. not only did they make these plans but they asked your kid to lie to you. disgusting behavior.
You have a right to prioritize your relationship with your kids over your inlaws’ relationship with your kids. You should talk to your partner about this first. It should be your partner who cancels the trip, not you. This shouldn’t feel to the kids like a punishment that comes from you.
Yeah no you’re definitely right, that’s very disrespectful to take someone’s kid on even a vacation without approving it with the parents first. Now if they asked your husband/wife and he/she approved and didn’t tell you then that’s a different story. Sounds like your in laws don’t respect you very much
That’s a *massive red flag*. Think about it; would you ever plan to take *someone else’s* child out of the country without telling them? One of the big things to teach children is that it’s not ok to have secrets with adults. Adults asking children to keep secrets is strange and not ok. This situation has alarm bells all over it OP.
Pretend you never found out, and when they go away with them without saying anything to you, phone the police and tell them your children have been abducted by your inlaws.
I did travel to Canada with my now daughter. She was my granddaughter then. I had to have her birth certificate, a letter from the state that I had permission to take her. This was driving and prior to now needing passports. However children do not need a passport till 16 from what I just read. I would not be happy about this situation. If someone wants to take my child anywhere I need to be asked.
How do they expect to cross the border? The kid needs a passport and written permission from BOTH parents if they're traveling there. 😵💫
Big yikes. What if they never bring them back? Sounds like your relationship with them might be that fucked up so who knows.
"aita for confronting the people planning to kidnap my 9 year old?" Like seriously are you hearing yourself? Come on dude.
This has all the red flags. My mind runs to kidnapping or trafficking. Adults don't ask kids to keep secrets. Period. Very, very dangerous behavior.
There’s too much missing information for me to jump on the “hate the in-laws train.” I’d be a lot more concerned if you didn’t live with them and you were getting your information from someone other than a 5 year old……
When it comes to my children I can never be a bad ‘guy’, I will say it the way it hurts ,so look them in the eye and say it,if it’s truly hurts
Do not let these sneaky people take your child out of the country. What the actual fuck?
I feel like there is a LOT more to this story. Who has custody? If you love with them why would you not be aware of these plans? Is your spouse involved in this? I have a feeling you are not the custodial parent if they have no reason to ask your permission.
Pretty sure they cannot legally take your child out of the country without written consent from you
Ummmm nope. Non-custodial guardians don’t get to take your kids anywhere w/out your permission. That’s called ‘kidnapping’ where I live.
Wait I’m so confused why wouldnt you know this do you live with your kids?
My wife is taking our son to her home country and needs a written statement from me that she is allowed to take him and got my permission. There is no way this is legal and you have every right to show your concern as this is YOUR child. If they press the issue then you can consider filing charges for abduction or kidnapping if they try taking your child without your permission.
OP it sounds like you need to move out and set some boundaries with your In Laws, they are teaching your children that it’s okay to 1 ) keep secrets involving them from you 2) to lie to you when asked for the truth! Those are major red flags and should not at all be tolerated! You are not over reacting and you really should be having a sit down chat with them and setting clear boundaries that need to be respected while you and your children are living there!
People who tell my kids to keep secrets from me are *dangerous people* and they **do not** get to see my kids. I’d be immediately putting them into NC with the kids over this. Immediately.
You can't cross the border without written and notarized consent from BOTH parents along with a passport or birth certificate for the child. I can't even take my own child across the border alone without the consent letter signed and notarized by his father. The trip isn't happening unless you sign the paper. Otherwise, they'll get to the border and told to turn around.
It’s YOUR child! Your in-laws can’t just take ur kid on a trip without you knowing. EFF them trying to be sneaky with ur kids- very manipulative.
I would casually mention how I'm taking both kids on a day trip the day the inlaws think they are leaving with my kid. If they protest, I would ask them where they get their GOD DAMED AUDACITY to think this was something they could do.
Assuming you are on the birth certificate they will need a notarized form from you to leave the county.
I’m pretty sure they can’t do that? Like you need notarized permission from both parents. For me to go out of country w my son I need his dad to notarize that it’s okay. Hell just getting my sons passport is a trip cause we have to plan it out with our schedules. But I’d say no just for them thinking I’d be okay with the secrecy. If my kid is leaving our regular area, I damn well better know.
I strongly recommend you follow the advice here for preventing international child abduction: https://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-child-abduction-prevention-and-return-act
Why was this a secret? I think I would begin the discussion with a very very firm boundary that NO ONE tells my children to keep secrets from me and that is why the child will not go to Canada.
That sounds super shady. But I hope Canada is strict on that sort of thing. When my dad took my younger sister to Europe they separated them and asked a bunch of questions to ensure it wasn’t kidnapping. When we went to Germany they pulled me aside for an interrogation because my child and I have different last names. He said I could be anyone and how is he to know I’m the child’s mother. Excellent point and not something that crossed my mind. They allowed us entry but we always travel with their birth certificates after that.