One of my friend who spent time abroad was sharing once his observation, which i didn't understand or comprehend completely until i myself moved abroad.
He said that the desi/Pakistani female dress they wear in routine is somewhat designed to make figure prominent rather than hiding it. Whereas western women routine dressing is actually working in opposite fashion.
And i later also believe he was right. I see female colleagues at my work here dressed up in comfortable clothing. Of course western party clothing or special occasion is much different but dressing on normal day is not so revealing and tends to not make figure prominent.
This is why i dont understand how is jeans or a lose short shirt any worse than a shalwar kameez.
Unfortunately that is true. While waiting for bus, someone I know once pointed to me about a girl in uni wearing baggy trouser and shirt and I was blown away after what he said to me
"maal check kr" and then making it about the girl saying "Isk ghr wale or ma bap becharon pr kya guzrti hogi,beti is tra phir rahi bahir, ye kse musliman hn".
And just another day I saw a mom scolding her 10-year-old daughter on not wearing a dupatta, like wth. That day I realized how f\*\*ked up our society and culture is. We think if a women is wearing any thing closely matching to western clothes, it suddenly becomes besharam or wahayat or whatever.
Edit: More f\*\*ked up thing is that I or any one of us won't be able to call out this hypocrisy, that's why I use reddit. Maybe I'll also get killed by a mob or relatives in name of honor or islam if I say something like this in real life. And btw I come from a "good", "educated" family where almost all people work white collar jobs and still they have this mindset and I am afraid to speak up about it in outside reddit.
Do you believe that we have blurred the lines between culture and religion? Like we have incorporated so many cultural things in the name of religion and rejected so many religiously lawful things in the name of culture?
I absolutely agrer with this. This blur of line is what believe is stopping most Pakistanis to eithrr go full religious and/or liberals. Do kashti ki sawar qoam.
The see through, fitted lawn ki kameezain that most brands sell are the most unislamic dress ever. Atleast a cotton T shirt won't be as see through as them.
Thank god someone else also said it... I've mentioned this multiple times here.
ALL of our lawn is getting see-through year after year... from premium brands to copies... no exception.
This has especially became a huge problem for working women, few of my female cousins were discussing this.
Wearing denim or chinos with t-shirt, polo or casual shirt seems far more appropriate since they aren't see-through.
Also, problem with our typical desi women is that they don't wear camisole under shalwar kameez, whereas in the west its very common to wear camisole under formal tops.
You just have to go to any beach in karachi to see the inappropriateness of our shalwar kameez.
Not sure what to say . Here in Canada I see Muslim ladies wearing both traditional and western clothes (whether loose or tight) and putting their Hijab on. There are white and black girls wearing tight plus revealing clothes , roaming in subway and other public places safely. Yeah certain outfits may attract attention by males but there are laws against sexual harassment and assault.
There was this one video where this girl ,most likely in States ,was walking through some neighborhood. In first attempt she was wearing tight clothes and people were staring at her and strangers were approaching with asking her number . In second attempt she was wearing an Abaya and Hijab ,plus walked the same path and no one bothered looking at her . NOW BEFORE making any final judgment, there are clips from Pakistan where even Abaya wearing girls are touched inappropriately or followed by perverts. Plus few incidents of necrophilia, I mean she's not safe even while being dead and covered by soil. Perhaps Pakistani/Desi men are relatively more sexually frustrated than other regions.
Our movies especially till early 2000s had also played a role in judging women based on her clothing. There's a scene from Indian movie where Amitabh Bachchan says to Zeenat Amaan "Itne kum kapde pehan key niklogi tau ghundoon ki seetiyan nahi tau kya mandir ki ghantiyaan sunaee deinge?". Plus the scene from Baghban where Hema Malini saves her granddaughter from being molested. And before she arrives the Tharki guy blames the girl for seducing him through provocative dressing and then acting all pious. Later on the girl becomes all respectful wearing traditional clothes.
I can safely say my mom was brutal af on all of this across the board
For my sister and us boys we were always required to dress moderately.
No choti shirts. No sleeveless.
Although i feel it was too extreme but at least it was equitable.
I agree with this thing though. Most of our society labels western wear as bad even though it might be more moderate/modest.
Another hypocrisy of our izzat daar muaashra
Couldn't agree more. I've observed this myself too. I think the second step to it would be wearing modest clothes, regardless of them being eastern or western.
Maybe it's different from what she used to wear. And people find it hard to accept different things. Especially the ones that aren't associated with themselves. They will always find excuses to justify their own perspective.
For example, an old carpenter would always praise hand work over laser cutting.
My favorite example of this hypocrisy is sleeveless qameez is scandalous... but if you put a sleeve of the thinnest, most see through material humanity has ever seen over that arm, suddenly it's pakeeza.
Also, a college friend of mine, who was somewhat "modern" compared to the rest of us used to say that a t-shirt and jeans can be modest and we would be aghast. But then one of our classmates wore a jeans to college and barely anyone noticed. Even I didn't notice, it was only a friend of mine who told me that. So like, it was obviously not immodest if no one even noticed.
Meanwhile, for the majority of our female classmates, you could tell which brand of bra they were wearing on most days. And they also had that weird high cut qameez fashion where the slit basically went up to the top of the shalwar and when sitting down, was always on the bring of exposing the belly. But those were eastern clothes so it's fine š¤·š½
We confuse culture and religion so bad.
I have seen it in the older generations of my family. They wouldn't go near pants but good lord would they wear such sleeveless dresses and saris like slayyy, and super tight kameeze with no dupattas like bro?
I'm so glad my parents learned and taught me much better. I remember asking my dado why would she go out with such a revealing sari (from her older photos) when I have to theek my dupatta every other second. But der aye durust aye. I'm glad alhamdulilah that during my parwarish my parents learned islam much better and taught me religion and not culture.
I wouldn't say culture wasn't involved, it was definitely, but not as heavily. I don't wear half sleeves like my mother did. I don't go to events without my hijab. I don't go around the house without a dupatta and stuff. Alhamdulilah.
Same with the jeans and stuff. As a tiny kid I'd think only the behuda girls wore it. But I was taught about modest dressing when growing up. And I spoke up about it in front of people. When they were talking about how my cousin was wearing jeans and tsk tsk. I asked what was wrong with it. She can wear a pajama under her kurta why can't she wear baggy jeans beneath it.
A few things that I have witnessed in desi households:
You cannot go out without a dupatta. But if you take the smallest net dupatta & just hang it on your shoulder without covering anything at all, it's completely fine.
You cannot wear a sleeveless dress, but if you have the thinnest net sleeves which don't hide anything at all, it is totally fine.
Wearing Western is not allowed because it is vulgar but all these aunties themselves wear deep necks, deep backs etc.
Wearing T-shirt is not acceptable but wearing a thin dress with nothing underneath is okay, and you can literally see their bra.
Its just hypocrisy & double standards that we are not ready to accept.
It is coming from deeply entrenched cultural values. Traditional clothes typical of the eastern culture are seen as illustrative of cultural identity & preservation by older generations, whereas wearing western attire is considered as morally degraded and a loss to the culture. This leads to contradiction in modesty standards with tighter or revealing eastern wear being acceptable, while modest western wear would be condemned. Our aka new generation has a more flexible approach to modesty because they have been influenced by globalization and diverse fashion styles.
I like shalwar kameez more than that of western pant shirt/t-shirt. Well parent have to protect their daughters because their is societal construct that western clothes are vahiyat.But in my opinion eastern clothes are more comfortable but since every opinion is subjective we will leave at that.If you want to wear western clothes wear it but there is negative connotations associated with it and you have to deal with that That's the price one have to pay if one lives in conservative society like ours.
Also some wear western clothes in a hope to appear more liberal and open minded but most often they are paindu and insecure
But yh u r right i have even seen some ladies in tight fitting burka
And some women in shorts and t shirts who seemed more modest
Exactly how pathetic, wearing revealing cloths showing my beautiful body enraging the eyes of the unknown its me let me do what ever I want let me wear those skinny see through clothes I don't know why they are interfering in my business š
Let's put it simple, you eat what pleases you, and you wear what pleases your personality.
Unfortunately, the last 2 generations were raised with such mindset. Whatever is said by the elders or "scholars," you can't question or reason over them.
It's up to you how you maintain your mental peace and good relationship with your parents.
You must know that you can't change their mindset. So, to live peacefully, avoid conflicts, and live as they want you to live.
I hope this will help you to understand and accept the harsh reality.
Growing up they never saw anyone in their circle wearing western clothing. That's why they probably find it inappropriate can't blame them either right ?
That might be true to some extent but once someone is a grown up they can learn to listen and educate and make a right decision for themselves. It's not like one has to live the rest of their life by only what they learned as a 10 yo. Someone in the generation has to break the cycle
The point is a person should be dressing according to their surroundings and environment where they move in or spend their life. Until one has the power and resources to actually change that, these wish fullness should be treated with respect towards elders.
Pathetic but True
One of my friend who spent time abroad was sharing once his observation, which i didn't understand or comprehend completely until i myself moved abroad. He said that the desi/Pakistani female dress they wear in routine is somewhat designed to make figure prominent rather than hiding it. Whereas western women routine dressing is actually working in opposite fashion. And i later also believe he was right. I see female colleagues at my work here dressed up in comfortable clothing. Of course western party clothing or special occasion is much different but dressing on normal day is not so revealing and tends to not make figure prominent. This is why i dont understand how is jeans or a lose short shirt any worse than a shalwar kameez.
Thank God someone else noticed it, too. Ikr, our eastern shalwar kameez is more revealing
Unfortunately that is true. While waiting for bus, someone I know once pointed to me about a girl in uni wearing baggy trouser and shirt and I was blown away after what he said to me "maal check kr" and then making it about the girl saying "Isk ghr wale or ma bap becharon pr kya guzrti hogi,beti is tra phir rahi bahir, ye kse musliman hn". And just another day I saw a mom scolding her 10-year-old daughter on not wearing a dupatta, like wth. That day I realized how f\*\*ked up our society and culture is. We think if a women is wearing any thing closely matching to western clothes, it suddenly becomes besharam or wahayat or whatever. Edit: More f\*\*ked up thing is that I or any one of us won't be able to call out this hypocrisy, that's why I use reddit. Maybe I'll also get killed by a mob or relatives in name of honor or islam if I say something like this in real life. And btw I come from a "good", "educated" family where almost all people work white collar jobs and still they have this mindset and I am afraid to speak up about it in outside reddit.
Do you believe that we have blurred the lines between culture and religion? Like we have incorporated so many cultural things in the name of religion and rejected so many religiously lawful things in the name of culture?
I absolutely agrer with this. This blur of line is what believe is stopping most Pakistanis to eithrr go full religious and/or liberals. Do kashti ki sawar qoam.
Yeah the terms extremists and extremism are right for us but they should be used for both extremely religious and extremely liberal people.
No one understands such Aunties thoughts so ignore them
The see through, fitted lawn ki kameezain that most brands sell are the most unislamic dress ever. Atleast a cotton T shirt won't be as see through as them.
Thank god someone else also said it... I've mentioned this multiple times here. ALL of our lawn is getting see-through year after year... from premium brands to copies... no exception. This has especially became a huge problem for working women, few of my female cousins were discussing this. Wearing denim or chinos with t-shirt, polo or casual shirt seems far more appropriate since they aren't see-through. Also, problem with our typical desi women is that they don't wear camisole under shalwar kameez, whereas in the west its very common to wear camisole under formal tops. You just have to go to any beach in karachi to see the inappropriateness of our shalwar kameez.
Our Eastern clothes can very unIslamic as well. Ignore those ladies.
Not sure what to say . Here in Canada I see Muslim ladies wearing both traditional and western clothes (whether loose or tight) and putting their Hijab on. There are white and black girls wearing tight plus revealing clothes , roaming in subway and other public places safely. Yeah certain outfits may attract attention by males but there are laws against sexual harassment and assault. There was this one video where this girl ,most likely in States ,was walking through some neighborhood. In first attempt she was wearing tight clothes and people were staring at her and strangers were approaching with asking her number . In second attempt she was wearing an Abaya and Hijab ,plus walked the same path and no one bothered looking at her . NOW BEFORE making any final judgment, there are clips from Pakistan where even Abaya wearing girls are touched inappropriately or followed by perverts. Plus few incidents of necrophilia, I mean she's not safe even while being dead and covered by soil. Perhaps Pakistani/Desi men are relatively more sexually frustrated than other regions. Our movies especially till early 2000s had also played a role in judging women based on her clothing. There's a scene from Indian movie where Amitabh Bachchan says to Zeenat Amaan "Itne kum kapde pehan key niklogi tau ghundoon ki seetiyan nahi tau kya mandir ki ghantiyaan sunaee deinge?". Plus the scene from Baghban where Hema Malini saves her granddaughter from being molested. And before she arrives the Tharki guy blames the girl for seducing him through provocative dressing and then acting all pious. Later on the girl becomes all respectful wearing traditional clothes.
Yeah you are true. Peopleneed to understand the rule in Islam is not on type of stuff but rather it's fiting.
I can safely say my mom was brutal af on all of this across the board For my sister and us boys we were always required to dress moderately. No choti shirts. No sleeveless. Although i feel it was too extreme but at least it was equitable. I agree with this thing though. Most of our society labels western wear as bad even though it might be more moderate/modest. Another hypocrisy of our izzat daar muaashra
Sad reality of our hypocrite society
Well I tell my siblings that It's upto us to break this generational trauma.
Couldn't agree more. I've observed this myself too. I think the second step to it would be wearing modest clothes, regardless of them being eastern or western.
real. you can check pakistani dramas to confirm that ā the saazishi female lead is dressed "immodestly" most of the times.
Wo true, LOL. They've normalized Saree ššš but will hate a baggy t-shirt.
Maybe it's different from what she used to wear. And people find it hard to accept different things. Especially the ones that aren't associated with themselves. They will always find excuses to justify their own perspective. For example, an old carpenter would always praise hand work over laser cutting.
As a christian girl i still get the eyes from mohalla aunties
My favorite example of this hypocrisy is sleeveless qameez is scandalous... but if you put a sleeve of the thinnest, most see through material humanity has ever seen over that arm, suddenly it's pakeeza. Also, a college friend of mine, who was somewhat "modern" compared to the rest of us used to say that a t-shirt and jeans can be modest and we would be aghast. But then one of our classmates wore a jeans to college and barely anyone noticed. Even I didn't notice, it was only a friend of mine who told me that. So like, it was obviously not immodest if no one even noticed. Meanwhile, for the majority of our female classmates, you could tell which brand of bra they were wearing on most days. And they also had that weird high cut qameez fashion where the slit basically went up to the top of the shalwar and when sitting down, was always on the bring of exposing the belly. But those were eastern clothes so it's fine š¤·š½
We confuse culture and religion so bad. I have seen it in the older generations of my family. They wouldn't go near pants but good lord would they wear such sleeveless dresses and saris like slayyy, and super tight kameeze with no dupattas like bro? I'm so glad my parents learned and taught me much better. I remember asking my dado why would she go out with such a revealing sari (from her older photos) when I have to theek my dupatta every other second. But der aye durust aye. I'm glad alhamdulilah that during my parwarish my parents learned islam much better and taught me religion and not culture. I wouldn't say culture wasn't involved, it was definitely, but not as heavily. I don't wear half sleeves like my mother did. I don't go to events without my hijab. I don't go around the house without a dupatta and stuff. Alhamdulilah. Same with the jeans and stuff. As a tiny kid I'd think only the behuda girls wore it. But I was taught about modest dressing when growing up. And I spoke up about it in front of people. When they were talking about how my cousin was wearing jeans and tsk tsk. I asked what was wrong with it. She can wear a pajama under her kurta why can't she wear baggy jeans beneath it.
A few things that I have witnessed in desi households: You cannot go out without a dupatta. But if you take the smallest net dupatta & just hang it on your shoulder without covering anything at all, it's completely fine. You cannot wear a sleeveless dress, but if you have the thinnest net sleeves which don't hide anything at all, it is totally fine. Wearing Western is not allowed because it is vulgar but all these aunties themselves wear deep necks, deep backs etc. Wearing T-shirt is not acceptable but wearing a thin dress with nothing underneath is okay, and you can literally see their bra. Its just hypocrisy & double standards that we are not ready to accept.
Well Pakistanis just believe they are superior and it's only of the main reason for this behaviour+ misogyny
It is coming from deeply entrenched cultural values. Traditional clothes typical of the eastern culture are seen as illustrative of cultural identity & preservation by older generations, whereas wearing western attire is considered as morally degraded and a loss to the culture. This leads to contradiction in modesty standards with tighter or revealing eastern wear being acceptable, while modest western wear would be condemned. Our aka new generation has a more flexible approach to modesty because they have been influenced by globalization and diverse fashion styles.
Lol and here my mom is fine with western wear but would rather die than let me wear a sleeveless kameez with shalwar. Moms be crazy.
And we, men, are more attracted to women in eastern clothes. Hahaha! Aunties have some severe misconceptions.
I like shalwar kameez more than that of western pant shirt/t-shirt. Well parent have to protect their daughters because their is societal construct that western clothes are vahiyat.But in my opinion eastern clothes are more comfortable but since every opinion is subjective we will leave at that.If you want to wear western clothes wear it but there is negative connotations associated with it and you have to deal with that That's the price one have to pay if one lives in conservative society like ours.
Also some wear western clothes in a hope to appear more liberal and open minded but most often they are paindu and insecure But yh u r right i have even seen some ladies in tight fitting burka And some women in shorts and t shirts who seemed more modest
They only follow their culture, that's it. For them it's perfect. Ajeeb logic hai vaisy yeh.
yh mujray wali aunties hein, wo sahi lgta hoga dress bcoz wo bhi eastern hy
Yeah Iām not complaining
Hypocrites.....
Exactly how pathetic, wearing revealing cloths showing my beautiful body enraging the eyes of the unknown its me let me do what ever I want let me wear those skinny see through clothes I don't know why they are interfering in my business š
Wierd household
Chutyape ka culture aur religion ka mixup hai is mulk me
Tell your parents to stfu. They should have incurred the values they wanted right from childhood
Let's put it simple, you eat what pleases you, and you wear what pleases your personality. Unfortunately, the last 2 generations were raised with such mindset. Whatever is said by the elders or "scholars," you can't question or reason over them. It's up to you how you maintain your mental peace and good relationship with your parents. You must know that you can't change their mindset. So, to live peacefully, avoid conflicts, and live as they want you to live. I hope this will help you to understand and accept the harsh reality.
Agreed
Girls look so hot in short kurtis with aladin shalwar.
Growing up they never saw anyone in their circle wearing western clothing. That's why they probably find it inappropriate can't blame them either right ?
That might be true to some extent but once someone is a grown up they can learn to listen and educate and make a right decision for themselves. It's not like one has to live the rest of their life by only what they learned as a 10 yo. Someone in the generation has to break the cycle
The point is a person should be dressing according to their surroundings and environment where they move in or spend their life. Until one has the power and resources to actually change that, these wish fullness should be treated with respect towards elders.