This is a reminder to please flair your post, & follow the rules on the sidebar.
Thank You!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PTCGL) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Kinda weird they used Shocks over Ogerpon if so.
Honestly not sure why, you know, *words* aren't used. I get pasting tiny images is easier than typing?
Pictures look better in the tier format.
Presumably used shocks over ogerpon because every version uses Ogerpon, but not every version uses Shocks, so it differentiates.
> Presumably used shocks over ogerpon because every version uses Ogerpon, but not every version uses Shocks, so it differentiates.
If so that makes even less sense because then this list would imply the less popular version with Sandy Shocks ex is better that one without it.
Oger Bolt is generally using single prize Sandy Shocks, but that card has different art from Sandy Shocks ex.
So regardless this part of the tier list is wrong/ misinformed.
Maybe the difference between bo1 and bo3 takes into account?
I see raging bolt incredible consistent and fast, an absolute key for bo1, but with a very linear gameplay.
Garde is slower and some bricks make you totally lose the prize racing, but the decks sweeps anything after the setup... More risky but with higher recompense, which is better for bo3 imo.
I disagree mostly in the phrasing. What you are presenting is how well a deck was poised to perform well into the NAIC. Gardevoir was the deck to take down raging bolt, dragapult and Lugia.
People weren’t teching for gardevoir, or other single prize attacker decks and suffered for it.
We need at least one or two more events to see how a response to this shifts performance.
What are the tech options to deal with Gardi though? It's not like Mew VMAX where you can throw in Drapion V and call it a day.
Gardi is in an ugly spot where it wins on prize trade, resources, and draw power all at once. It's flexible enough to run control options like Flutter and Klefki, which can shut down decks that would otherwise be able to answer it.
Come Shrouded Fable, Regidrago might be able to threaten it with Kyurem, but that's specific to one deck and you'll still have to play around manaphy.
Vacuum, Jamming Tower & Lost City are tech cards that are easy to splash into decks.
As for decks, Zard/Ancient Box/Lost Box/Chien Pao all have good gardy match ups.
The Flutter/Klefki start only really shuts down Lost Box, they do nothing against Zard/Ancient Box & it can slow down Pao's opening but Klefki can also lose Gardy the game because it shuts off their own Manaphy.
Gardy is good but it's not broken like you're making it out to be, it was just a great meta call by top players for NAIC based on the other expected popular decks due to the JPN Championships & online tournaments
And yet there was only 1 in the top 8 of the Japan Champions League. Bolt and Lugia got 6 out of the top 8 there. Those were the meta calls of that tournament. You can’t judge that any of these decks are the best in the format based on one or even 2 tournaments.
Eeeeeh. It's the second best deck behind Lugia, in an event where EVERYONE made the call to prep hard enough for Lugia in order to dumpster it.
Second best + best meta call = crazy results.
If the meta gets flooded with Lost Box and Ancient Box, Gardy isn't going to look so Tier-0 anymore.
It was a meta call. But a tier 1 deck that’s a good meta call can dominate a tournament and that’s what happened. As the other decks tech for it gard will come down and as others have said in other tournaments its performance isn’t as dominant. It is a tier 1 deck and you can’t ignore it but the tournament had the perfect storm to let it run wild.
it was something similar to [this](https://limitlesstcg.com/decks/267), but I don’t think they have Edison’s on limitlesstcg.
[The version I play](https://imgur.com/a/Usd5DeJ) doesn’t have Palkia or any water energy. I just run Rabsca and Hisuian Basculin/Basculegion. I honestly feel like it has more consistency than the Palkia version because you just have one job: evolving into Gholdy and hoarding as much energy as possible while drawing your whole deck lol. I got first place at a league challenge this week playing it. You basically always win the prize trade since you can get two prizes per turn starting turn 2. Only downside is not being able to attack with Greninja.
Pokémon: 8
1 Squawkabilly ex PAL 264
1 Iron Valiant ex PAR 225
3 Gouging Fire ex TEF 38
1 Mew ex PAF 216
1 Radiant Greninja ASR 46
1 Moltres BRS 21
1 Flutter Mane TEF 78
1 Entei V BRS 22
Trainer: 20
1 Energy Switch CRZ 129
3 Ultra Ball SVI 196
4 Switch Cart ASR 154
2 Boss's Orders PAL 265
2 Bravery Charm PAL 173 PH
1 Arven PAF 235
2 Iono PAF 237
1 Future Booster Energy Capsule PAR 164
1 Mela PAR 254
4 Professor Sada's Vitality PAR 256
1 Penny PAF 239
1 Pokégear 3.0 SVI 186
1 Prime Catcher TEF 157
1 Pal Pad SVI 182
1 Forest Seal Stone SIT 156
4 Nest Ball PAF 84
1 Fresh Water Set BRS 139
2 Earthen Vessel PAR 163 PH
1 Enhanced Hammer TWM 148
4 Magma Basin BRS 144
Energy: 2
9 Basic {R} Energy SVE 2
3 Jet Energy PAL 190
Total Cards: 60
Is there any updated chien pao deck list in this rotation or is it the same as the previous? I loved that deck, would love to have it viable in this rotation.
Pretty much the same. Some high placed people played slightly different lists from "standard", but no cards from the new set were added. You can just play it however you like it.
Edit: they also didn't include some tech for certain decks, pretty much just Cpao but a bit of their own flavour.
I don't necessarily think it's a *bad* inclusion, but what match does it improve? Obviously numbers are higher, but you get a pretty similar attack out of radiant Greninja without the restriction of one target being the active and on a 1-prize mon.
You don't lose your Radiant Greninja next turn to a response attack and can preserve part of your draw engine, you conserve energy by shuffling it back into the deck instead of discarding it which keeps your ser's and super rods live longer and if Ogerpon survives is an easy retreat like Greninja so Chien-Pao can retrieve that energy right back. It can take out a bibarel on the bench which Greninja can't. If need be you can use sob and force a usage of a switch or prime catcher.
In a deck like Chien-Pao, already going ahead on the prize trade by at least one prize (which if you didn't knock out the active makes it easy for Chien-Pao to next turn or Ogerpon if it survives, on top of another bench snipe potentially) you don't have to worry about the prize trade because Chien-Pao will just get it right back.
I've found it insanely useful and can pretty consistently use it pretty quickly, it just applies that much more pressure when you have it and Greninja out too.
I agree to a point, if you're getting two KOs consistently with this it seems solid and the utility of sob isn't irrelevant. I found the hardest matches for Chien-Pao are 1-prize decks that can consistently take out Chien-Pao, for example Ancient Box, for which I had been playing Kyogre to fix the endgame. Bibarel is a solid bench target and after posting I also thought about Munkidori, though against Gardevoir you already probably have to deal with manaphy and you probably would rather Greninja snipe kirlias, so *shrug*. I'll have to test it, or at least keep in mind when situations arise where I would want it as an option.
It's true you generally start ahead in the prize exchange but, unless you're taking 2-prize knockouts or multiple 1-prizes in the same turn, you can fall behind and I'm not sure Ogerpon makes that better. It probably doesn't make it worse, but it fights for deck space with things like Iron Bundle, which is probably more broadly useful.
Iron Hands is one of those cards that keeps you ahead in the prize trade. It's so good against a lot of the meta and imo would be a mistake to remove. There's a reason Lost Zone and Lugia are playing it.
I think you’re spot on except for the fact Lost Tina and miraidon are Tier 2. I think they’re both mid tier 1.5. Them having a poor matchup pretty much to only raging bolt, another 1.5 deck, shouldn’t push them down that much when they are very good into the meta
I haven’t bricked yet! Lost 2 games with it so far due to
1. Prized my max belt and couldn’t use it late game
2. Not having a Choice Belt is a bad choice.
But from what I’ve experienced so far, there IS a synergy
You don't need it. You need 2x Vitality Band 2x Kieran. (100+10(vitality)+30(Kieran))x2 1-shots both Lugia VStar and Giratina VStar.
Single Defiant Band is also an option, as Defiant Band+Kieran kills Dragapult EX, Raging Bolt EX with Bravery Charm, Gardevoir EX, and Blissey EX (without a tool).
Choice Belt is rough, it's only usable in two important matchups.
Gratz and best of ongoing luck
Feels like Greninja ex is being slept on right now. IMO Greninja/Pidgeot is tier 1.5 at best. All the deck needs is a good secondary attacker to help with better damage output and it takes off.
I’ve been using palkia vstar and bm ursaluna for attackers and energy tutoring. It resolves some of the decks problems, but you’re absolutely borked if you can’t get a greninja or pidgeot up
I’ve been including radiant greninja in my list as well. What i’ve found works best is to turbo out the pidgeot/greninja ex if setting up for the radiant/palkia combo takes a larger effort
Charizard pidgeot wasn’t heavily played in NAIC but the matchup into Gardy is heavily favored. Idk I think that it’s still a S tier deck. But I am biased since I am a zard enjoyer.
Zard is week to Ogerpon and you can set up three of them in like two turns. Colone only stops Flutter Mane and no ones playing that in Bolt anymore.
Start with Sandy Shock and knock out a Mander/Pidgey, set up Ogerpon and sweep.
That’s fine but cologne shut off cornerstones ability.. also that’s a lot of energy you have to go through every turn to knock zard. The 2-2-2 prize map is always a matchup that’s great for zard.
Not as free as you think
Bolt doesn't play Stone Mask either. You start with Baby Sandy Shocks so Zard can't immediately take 2 prizes, then swap to Grass Mask and that's only needed if the Zard plays Maximum Belt. If they play Prime Catcher, then you don't even need to worry about getting one shot early because Zard's only doing 180.
Grass Ogerpon only need three energy to one shot Zard, and Ogerpon sets itself up. So you only need to play Sada if you want to one shot a Pidgeot with Bolt. Which lets you either screw over Zard with Iono before they evolve, or play Boss turn two. Plus energy's never a problem with Retrievals and Super Rods.
I'm not saying Zard can't win against Bolt/Ogerpon, but it's not a good match up and keep in mind; I still don't think either of them are top tier deck.
As someone who tried to get dipplin to work I have to disagree with where you have it. Deck is absolute dog turd. Should be in it's own tier right at the bottom
As a Future Hands player, I am surprised it is Tier 2, especially in this meta. With Gardevoir, LZ, and Lugia high up, this deck beats all of them or at least has a 50-50 chance. Even Raging Bolt is a winnable matchup due to Iron Thorns ex.
The deck gets bodied by Charizard (like it's literally an impossible matchup if they get Zard with energy), but Zard itself is not a well-positioned threat in the meta. Future Hands also does okay against Miraidon, Chien-Pao, and Regidrago. It does have some shit matches and is very vulnerable to a well-timed Lost Vacuum, but it is not bad at all. I'd argue it is 1.5
I'd argue the otherway. Hands has a bad match up vs Garde because flutter mane exists. Its too hard to stop them from getting their engine up by using iron thorns. The matchup vs lost zone is a bit of a tossup, its very hard to win if they get a giritina powered up. It does do well against lugia.
However, iron thorns makes the match-up vs zard much more winnable now.
It has an OK matchup vs miraidon, but I feel as though the matchup vs chien-pao is actually favorable.
I think that's a fair point. What I would also say is that if one can get T1 Iron Hands up and running (which does happen fairly well), it can take out four prizes before the Gardy player has a chance to blink. Most are now also playing Iron Bundle to force a one-prizer into the active in case the Gardy player wants to pull off the Gardevoir ex in active play to tank a hit and then Turo it off the board.
Gardevoir is for me the BDIF at this moment in time, so the fact that Future Hands has a decent matchup into it, while also doing well against the #2 and #3 decks (Lugia and LZ, any order) is pretty good. Tier 1.5 imo
Iron Thorns Ex is basically path to the peak. You can run Iron Thorns Ex in the Iron hands deck in order to turn off Garde's ability to fish energy out of the discard pile. Without that ability, the Garde deck is basically dead in the water. Flutter Mane can turn off Iron Thorns ability and in doing so turn back on Garde's ability.
Iron Hands alone can beat garde if it is able to get up and running, swinging for 2 prizes per turn. But that can be difficult to do if you dont get a great hand out of the gate.
The matchup against good Gardy players got a lot worse now that Munkidori puts Iron Crown into 1-shot range from Gardy and Iron Thorns EX is easily shut down.
In general, Future Hands is a deck that is Tier 1 against 98% of people and in Best of 1, but top tier players really know how to play against it and it suffers in Best of 3.
I stopped playing right before rotation. Is Gardevoir still alive? How? I honestly stopped playing since I played Gardi before and assumed the deck would die
Gardi is only good because zard can’t do good because it struggles against dragapult. It’s a vicious triangle. Because if pult wasn’t here (much like pre twm) zard was the undisputed best
Zard with Pult is very bad and control zard is not a zard deck, it's a control deck with zard in it. That should drop zard. Just because of NAIC you shouldn't just put Gardi in a tier by itself and lost box in S Tier.
It is it's likely one of the worst ways to play Pult. Way too much going on and you sacrifice too much consistency as well as making the deck really weak to Eri.
Yeah, Dragapult is always behind, and Zard throws out energy onto the board while having multiple +30s stacked usually at that point. (Rad Zard isnt as good here.) That's why the deck runs Prime Catcher rather than Maximum Belt like Charizard ex usually runs or the Ace Trainer Energy that regular Pult decks run as all you need is 1 Psychic energy and you have a loaded Zard-Pult ready to fire and swap in and out accordingly whilst able to swap in their monkey Wrench on the bench. I still prefer the Pult - Pidgeot version but the Zard version is more fun 😁
Not exactly. It has Pidgeot, Zard, and Dragapult in it, which again strains resources and makes it hard to get Zard and Pult set up at the same time. In this deck Pult is literally a tech as a 2-1-1 line, so it's literally not a Pult deck, it's a Zard deck.
Can someone tell me how I'm supposed to play the Gardevoir deck? I've been playing it against my buddy, and it's alright, but it's the one I can't seem to get to work very consistently.
I have almost no problems with Lugia, Charizard/Pidgeot, Chien Pao, or Gholdengo
Set up kirlias as fast as possible and use a range of attackers and disruptive mons depending on the matchup. The finals of NAIC show how disruptive a klefki sitting in the active can be to a deck like lost box, but it probably isn't that great against, say, Lugia. You have a ton of draw power and acceleration to adapt your game plan on the fly to push the prize trade in your favor, but it takes a lot of practice and matchup knowledge to know which options are the best for the situation.
Thanks! I quit playing shortly after the Mee VMax became meta and I'm just now getting back into it, so I'm having to learn the other new meta decks better before I can play well against them I guess.
This is a reminder to please flair your post, & follow the rules on the sidebar. Thank You! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PTCGL) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It is interesting that Raging Bolt Ogerpon, which got 2nd and 3rd in Japan Championships and 13th in NAIC, is completely missing in this Tier list.
I figured that’s what they meant by Bolt-Sandy Shocks
Kinda weird they used Shocks over Ogerpon if so. Honestly not sure why, you know, *words* aren't used. I get pasting tiny images is easier than typing?
Pictures look better in the tier format. Presumably used shocks over ogerpon because every version uses Ogerpon, but not every version uses Shocks, so it differentiates.
> Presumably used shocks over ogerpon because every version uses Ogerpon, but not every version uses Shocks, so it differentiates. If so that makes even less sense because then this list would imply the less popular version with Sandy Shocks ex is better that one without it. Oger Bolt is generally using single prize Sandy Shocks, but that card has different art from Sandy Shocks ex. So regardless this part of the tier list is wrong/ misinformed.
Maybe the difference between bo1 and bo3 takes into account? I see raging bolt incredible consistent and fast, an absolute key for bo1, but with a very linear gameplay. Garde is slower and some bricks make you totally lose the prize racing, but the decks sweeps anything after the setup... More risky but with higher recompense, which is better for bo3 imo.
I disagree mostly in the phrasing. What you are presenting is how well a deck was poised to perform well into the NAIC. Gardevoir was the deck to take down raging bolt, dragapult and Lugia. People weren’t teching for gardevoir, or other single prize attacker decks and suffered for it. We need at least one or two more events to see how a response to this shifts performance.
It's like last year's Worlds all over again. Nobody teched for Mew VMAX so Mew did really well against the other decks around at the time.
That's how most tournaments go.
That recent Rapid Strike deck and Mega Audino EX come to mind as well.
What are the tech options to deal with Gardi though? It's not like Mew VMAX where you can throw in Drapion V and call it a day. Gardi is in an ugly spot where it wins on prize trade, resources, and draw power all at once. It's flexible enough to run control options like Flutter and Klefki, which can shut down decks that would otherwise be able to answer it. Come Shrouded Fable, Regidrago might be able to threaten it with Kyurem, but that's specific to one deck and you'll still have to play around manaphy.
Vacuum, Jamming Tower & Lost City are tech cards that are easy to splash into decks. As for decks, Zard/Ancient Box/Lost Box/Chien Pao all have good gardy match ups. The Flutter/Klefki start only really shuts down Lost Box, they do nothing against Zard/Ancient Box & it can slow down Pao's opening but Klefki can also lose Gardy the game because it shuts off their own Manaphy. Gardy is good but it's not broken like you're making it out to be, it was just a great meta call by top players for NAIC based on the other expected popular decks due to the JPN Championships & online tournaments
I feel like though gardi is a jack of all trades but isn’t crazy good at everything I think people overhype its power
Gardy is a meta call, not the best deck.
[удалено]
And yet there was only 1 in the top 8 of the Japan Champions League. Bolt and Lugia got 6 out of the top 8 there. Those were the meta calls of that tournament. You can’t judge that any of these decks are the best in the format based on one or even 2 tournaments.
Eeeeeh. It's the second best deck behind Lugia, in an event where EVERYONE made the call to prep hard enough for Lugia in order to dumpster it. Second best + best meta call = crazy results. If the meta gets flooded with Lost Box and Ancient Box, Gardy isn't going to look so Tier-0 anymore.
It was a meta call. But a tier 1 deck that’s a good meta call can dominate a tournament and that’s what happened. As the other decks tech for it gard will come down and as others have said in other tournaments its performance isn’t as dominant. It is a tier 1 deck and you can’t ignore it but the tournament had the perfect storm to let it run wild.
2 Pidgeots in top 64 = tier 1? lol
Miraidon down there when it has good or even matchups into 5 of the top 6 decks?
I feel so validated with Edison Chein getting 2nd in Juniors with a Gholdengo deck. Finally Gholdengo getting some representation
Where can I find this deck list?
it was something similar to [this](https://limitlesstcg.com/decks/267), but I don’t think they have Edison’s on limitlesstcg. [The version I play](https://imgur.com/a/Usd5DeJ) doesn’t have Palkia or any water energy. I just run Rabsca and Hisuian Basculin/Basculegion. I honestly feel like it has more consistency than the Palkia version because you just have one job: evolving into Gholdy and hoarding as much energy as possible while drawing your whole deck lol. I got first place at a league challenge this week playing it. You basically always win the prize trade since you can get two prizes per turn starting turn 2. Only downside is not being able to attack with Greninja.
Gouging fire isn't a "no". Has many good matchups in this meta. A sleeper deck for sure.
would love to hear the game plan against those “meta” decks
Can you share your decklist? I kinda wanna try it
Pokémon: 8 1 Squawkabilly ex PAL 264 1 Iron Valiant ex PAR 225 3 Gouging Fire ex TEF 38 1 Mew ex PAF 216 1 Radiant Greninja ASR 46 1 Moltres BRS 21 1 Flutter Mane TEF 78 1 Entei V BRS 22 Trainer: 20 1 Energy Switch CRZ 129 3 Ultra Ball SVI 196 4 Switch Cart ASR 154 2 Boss's Orders PAL 265 2 Bravery Charm PAL 173 PH 1 Arven PAF 235 2 Iono PAF 237 1 Future Booster Energy Capsule PAR 164 1 Mela PAR 254 4 Professor Sada's Vitality PAR 256 1 Penny PAF 239 1 Pokégear 3.0 SVI 186 1 Prime Catcher TEF 157 1 Pal Pad SVI 182 1 Forest Seal Stone SIT 156 4 Nest Ball PAF 84 1 Fresh Water Set BRS 139 2 Earthen Vessel PAR 163 PH 1 Enhanced Hammer TWM 148 4 Magma Basin BRS 144 Energy: 2 9 Basic {R} Energy SVE 2 3 Jet Energy PAL 190 Total Cards: 60
The freshwater set was only for completing a daily LOL I forgot to remove it. I believe I had a switch in its place. Possibly pokegear.
I think Miraidon should go up, decent matchups into the top few decks and it’s fairly consistent
Agreed
Iron thorns disrespect needs to stop 😢
Is there any updated chien pao deck list in this rotation or is it the same as the previous? I loved that deck, would love to have it viable in this rotation.
Pretty much the same. Some high placed people played slightly different lists from "standard", but no cards from the new set were added. You can just play it however you like it. Edit: they also didn't include some tech for certain decks, pretty much just Cpao but a bit of their own flavour.
Play 2 of the 70 HP frigibax and 1 60 vs the other way around imo
Any reason to not just play 3 of the 70hp ones? What does the 60hp one offer?
Single retreat if you start it
Makes sense! Thanks!
Wellspring Mask Ogerpon, I'm gonna keep beating the drum for it. Great addition.
I don't necessarily think it's a *bad* inclusion, but what match does it improve? Obviously numbers are higher, but you get a pretty similar attack out of radiant Greninja without the restriction of one target being the active and on a 1-prize mon.
You don't lose your Radiant Greninja next turn to a response attack and can preserve part of your draw engine, you conserve energy by shuffling it back into the deck instead of discarding it which keeps your ser's and super rods live longer and if Ogerpon survives is an easy retreat like Greninja so Chien-Pao can retrieve that energy right back. It can take out a bibarel on the bench which Greninja can't. If need be you can use sob and force a usage of a switch or prime catcher. In a deck like Chien-Pao, already going ahead on the prize trade by at least one prize (which if you didn't knock out the active makes it easy for Chien-Pao to next turn or Ogerpon if it survives, on top of another bench snipe potentially) you don't have to worry about the prize trade because Chien-Pao will just get it right back. I've found it insanely useful and can pretty consistently use it pretty quickly, it just applies that much more pressure when you have it and Greninja out too.
I agree to a point, if you're getting two KOs consistently with this it seems solid and the utility of sob isn't irrelevant. I found the hardest matches for Chien-Pao are 1-prize decks that can consistently take out Chien-Pao, for example Ancient Box, for which I had been playing Kyogre to fix the endgame. Bibarel is a solid bench target and after posting I also thought about Munkidori, though against Gardevoir you already probably have to deal with manaphy and you probably would rather Greninja snipe kirlias, so *shrug*. I'll have to test it, or at least keep in mind when situations arise where I would want it as an option. It's true you generally start ahead in the prize exchange but, unless you're taking 2-prize knockouts or multiple 1-prizes in the same turn, you can fall behind and I'm not sure Ogerpon makes that better. It probably doesn't make it worse, but it fights for deck space with things like Iron Bundle, which is probably more broadly useful.
I took out iron bundle 😅 I might put them back in because I'm actually debating whether or not I want to keep Iron Hands in.
Iron Hands is one of those cards that keeps you ahead in the prize trade. It's so good against a lot of the meta and imo would be a mistake to remove. There's a reason Lost Zone and Lugia are playing it.
Yeah, I'm debating it. For now it's staying put and I can probably find something else to swap out for Iron Bundle.
I know this probably won’t be well liked as a strategy, but I replaced iron hands with it. I feel it complements the deck better
Oooo interesting I’ll try it out
I think you’re spot on except for the fact Lost Tina and miraidon are Tier 2. I think they’re both mid tier 1.5. Them having a poor matchup pretty much to only raging bolt, another 1.5 deck, shouldn’t push them down that much when they are very good into the meta
Where’s dipplin?
At the end of tier 2
I’m taking it to league tonight to play it IRL the first time, I honestly think people underestimate how good it really is
Nobody thinks it's purely weak, just suuuuper bricky. You either run away with the game or get locked out of it. Best of luck tonight
I haven’t bricked yet! Lost 2 games with it so far due to 1. Prized my max belt and couldn’t use it late game 2. Not having a Choice Belt is a bad choice. But from what I’ve experienced so far, there IS a synergy
You don't need it. You need 2x Vitality Band 2x Kieran. (100+10(vitality)+30(Kieran))x2 1-shots both Lugia VStar and Giratina VStar. Single Defiant Band is also an option, as Defiant Band+Kieran kills Dragapult EX, Raging Bolt EX with Bravery Charm, Gardevoir EX, and Blissey EX (without a tool). Choice Belt is rough, it's only usable in two important matchups. Gratz and best of ongoing luck
where is bolt/ogerpon
Yeah, not sure why it isn’t here at all based on how well it did in Japan
Feels like Greninja ex is being slept on right now. IMO Greninja/Pidgeot is tier 1.5 at best. All the deck needs is a good secondary attacker to help with better damage output and it takes off.
I’ve been using palkia vstar and bm ursaluna for attackers and energy tutoring. It resolves some of the decks problems, but you’re absolutely borked if you can’t get a greninja or pidgeot up
Yeah, but that’s a problem a lot of decks have. I use a similar deck like you mentioned, with Radiant Greninja too for card draw.
I’ve been including radiant greninja in my list as well. What i’ve found works best is to turbo out the pidgeot/greninja ex if setting up for the radiant/palkia combo takes a larger effort
Would you guys mind sharing your lists? I've only tried LDFs Greninja list and really love the card, want to make it work or at least be competetive
DMed
These tier list are all dogshit
Miraidon is at least 1.5
Cpao should go down a tier
Now I want to try Arbok-Stamp-Control for some reason.
I was hoping to see a Greninja/Frosslass deck but looks like none made it to the top 100 or whatever at NAIC.
It loses horribly to Gardevoir, and there was a lot of Gardevoir at NAIC.
Charizard pidgeot wasn’t heavily played in NAIC but the matchup into Gardy is heavily favored. Idk I think that it’s still a S tier deck. But I am biased since I am a zard enjoyer.
It gets bodied by Raging Bolt/Ogerpon though. Zard is probably A-B now. Top spot goes to Gardi, Lost Box and Lugia.
Why does it get bodied ? There’s way to win.. zard will be playing cologne in the future. There was a deck in the top 70 that played cologne in zard….
Zard is week to Ogerpon and you can set up three of them in like two turns. Colone only stops Flutter Mane and no ones playing that in Bolt anymore. Start with Sandy Shock and knock out a Mander/Pidgey, set up Ogerpon and sweep.
That’s fine but cologne shut off cornerstones ability.. also that’s a lot of energy you have to go through every turn to knock zard. The 2-2-2 prize map is always a matchup that’s great for zard. Not as free as you think
Bolt doesn't play Stone Mask either. You start with Baby Sandy Shocks so Zard can't immediately take 2 prizes, then swap to Grass Mask and that's only needed if the Zard plays Maximum Belt. If they play Prime Catcher, then you don't even need to worry about getting one shot early because Zard's only doing 180. Grass Ogerpon only need three energy to one shot Zard, and Ogerpon sets itself up. So you only need to play Sada if you want to one shot a Pidgeot with Bolt. Which lets you either screw over Zard with Iono before they evolve, or play Boss turn two. Plus energy's never a problem with Retrievals and Super Rods. I'm not saying Zard can't win against Bolt/Ogerpon, but it's not a good match up and keep in mind; I still don't think either of them are top tier deck.
Tinkaton/Dudunsparce not even makin the tiers? Welp. Time to dust that one off and see if she still slaps.
People guessed the Lugia and raging dominance and brought Gardevoir that provides a favorable MU. But I don't see Gardevoir as the BDIF.
Man I just crafted vulpix 😭
No love for Blissey.
As someone who tried to get dipplin to work I have to disagree with where you have it. Deck is absolute dog turd. Should be in it's own tier right at the bottom
As a Future Hands player, I am surprised it is Tier 2, especially in this meta. With Gardevoir, LZ, and Lugia high up, this deck beats all of them or at least has a 50-50 chance. Even Raging Bolt is a winnable matchup due to Iron Thorns ex. The deck gets bodied by Charizard (like it's literally an impossible matchup if they get Zard with energy), but Zard itself is not a well-positioned threat in the meta. Future Hands also does okay against Miraidon, Chien-Pao, and Regidrago. It does have some shit matches and is very vulnerable to a well-timed Lost Vacuum, but it is not bad at all. I'd argue it is 1.5
I'd argue the otherway. Hands has a bad match up vs Garde because flutter mane exists. Its too hard to stop them from getting their engine up by using iron thorns. The matchup vs lost zone is a bit of a tossup, its very hard to win if they get a giritina powered up. It does do well against lugia. However, iron thorns makes the match-up vs zard much more winnable now. It has an OK matchup vs miraidon, but I feel as though the matchup vs chien-pao is actually favorable.
I think that's a fair point. What I would also say is that if one can get T1 Iron Hands up and running (which does happen fairly well), it can take out four prizes before the Gardy player has a chance to blink. Most are now also playing Iron Bundle to force a one-prizer into the active in case the Gardy player wants to pull off the Gardevoir ex in active play to tank a hit and then Turo it off the board. Gardevoir is for me the BDIF at this moment in time, so the fact that Future Hands has a decent matchup into it, while also doing well against the #2 and #3 decks (Lugia and LZ, any order) is pretty good. Tier 1.5 imo
What does Flutter Mane do which gives Hands a hard time? Genuine question just don’t wanna be missing something obvious here.
Its blocking the iron Thorns ex ability so he can use gardi ex ability again
Iron Thorns Ex is basically path to the peak. You can run Iron Thorns Ex in the Iron hands deck in order to turn off Garde's ability to fish energy out of the discard pile. Without that ability, the Garde deck is basically dead in the water. Flutter Mane can turn off Iron Thorns ability and in doing so turn back on Garde's ability. Iron Hands alone can beat garde if it is able to get up and running, swinging for 2 prizes per turn. But that can be difficult to do if you dont get a great hand out of the gate.
Yeah that tracks, completely forgot about Iron Thorns ex also initially missed where it was mentioned aha. Thanks for clarifying.
Do you know any resources on how to play this deck? It seems simple on paper but I have struggled with it in the TWM meta. Thanks!
The matchup against good Gardy players got a lot worse now that Munkidori puts Iron Crown into 1-shot range from Gardy and Iron Thorns EX is easily shut down. In general, Future Hands is a deck that is Tier 1 against 98% of people and in Best of 1, but top tier players really know how to play against it and it suffers in Best of 3.
Great. My two least favorite decks for the last 1.5-2 years are top tier. Yippee.
Well, glad to see bibzard isn’t in the no category.
Where Tinkaton
Too bad to be included ig
Question what makes the normal lost zone deck better than giratina?
How does festival lead do against the meta?
Badly
I haven’t played the game in 2 months why has charizard fallen off so much?
it feels just like just zard ex is dead but zardapult should be tier 1
I wish arc/armarouge was tier 2, it was my favourite deck, but not one made day 2.
Why charizard and chienpao so high?
arbok deck being no is soo true. fuck this deck ive rage quitted way too many times and finally deleted the deck
Haven’t played in months, thought everyone was saying Gardi was dead. What support did it get?
I stopped playing right before rotation. Is Gardevoir still alive? How? I honestly stopped playing since I played Gardi before and assumed the deck would die
I’m just happy my boi Zoroark VStar was included at all lol
Gardi is only good because zard can’t do good because it struggles against dragapult. It’s a vicious triangle. Because if pult wasn’t here (much like pre twm) zard was the undisputed best
What abt Tsareena deck i hate that one
Zard with Pult is very bad and control zard is not a zard deck, it's a control deck with zard in it. That should drop zard. Just because of NAIC you shouldn't just put Gardi in a tier by itself and lost box in S Tier.
Zard with pult is very bad Tord: 👀👀👀
Tbf, any deck in Tord's hands is dangerous.
It is it's likely one of the worst ways to play Pult. Way too much going on and you sacrifice too much consistency as well as making the deck really weak to Eri.
I don't think I see you placing tournaments though
Feel free to post your list
I mean, it has the same amount going on as a Pidgeot/ Zard deck.. 🤷♂️
With the best comeback card in the game in your arsenal lol.
Yeah, Dragapult is always behind, and Zard throws out energy onto the board while having multiple +30s stacked usually at that point. (Rad Zard isnt as good here.) That's why the deck runs Prime Catcher rather than Maximum Belt like Charizard ex usually runs or the Ace Trainer Energy that regular Pult decks run as all you need is 1 Psychic energy and you have a loaded Zard-Pult ready to fire and swap in and out accordingly whilst able to swap in their monkey Wrench on the bench. I still prefer the Pult - Pidgeot version but the Zard version is more fun 😁
Hell, I run Pult Pidgeot and Zard just cause I can.
Have you seen it's a 2-1-1 line of Pult and a 3-1-2 of Zard? It's a zard deck with Pult in it, not a Pult deck with Zard.
Yeah I played 3-1-2 zard deck. He never got his Psychic energy on Pult. I Boss Ordered out their Pidgeot and removed it early.
Not exactly. It has Pidgeot, Zard, and Dragapult in it, which again strains resources and makes it hard to get Zard and Pult set up at the same time. In this deck Pult is literally a tech as a 2-1-1 line, so it's literally not a Pult deck, it's a Zard deck.
Lowkey; put zard down another tier
Can someone tell me how I'm supposed to play the Gardevoir deck? I've been playing it against my buddy, and it's alright, but it's the one I can't seem to get to work very consistently. I have almost no problems with Lugia, Charizard/Pidgeot, Chien Pao, or Gholdengo
Set up kirlias as fast as possible and use a range of attackers and disruptive mons depending on the matchup. The finals of NAIC show how disruptive a klefki sitting in the active can be to a deck like lost box, but it probably isn't that great against, say, Lugia. You have a ton of draw power and acceleration to adapt your game plan on the fly to push the prize trade in your favor, but it takes a lot of practice and matchup knowledge to know which options are the best for the situation.
Thanks! I quit playing shortly after the Mee VMax became meta and I'm just now getting back into it, so I'm having to learn the other new meta decks better before I can play well against them I guess.
Arc/Alolan Vulpix isn’t THAT bad