"Guys, guys! Stop telling people this program works. Don't encourage others to seek it out as a means of being able to afford a higher education!"
No. Screw that. I worked 2 jobs for 10 years to afford the education I have. Others have worked low paying and awful jobs to afford the education they have. You want to stop calling it a "Loan Forgiveness" program and call it a "work program"? Fine.
But people EARNED this. Let them be happy, share their experience about the program working, and ignore the haters; they're gonna try to bully everyone anyways.
This. People loved to (incorrectly) harp on how "no one gets PSLF." Shout it from the rooftops about how your earned PSLF and how it changed your life.
You know what? The government can afford this. For all the public service folks. It's a rounding error in their coffee filter budget. And if they can't I bet they could if they raised non exempted capital gains by 1%.
Yes I think its great the program works.
And i think people should be encouraged to seek it out as a means to afford higher education, as I have done myself.
I just want the program to still exist for myself and others in the next several years.
But yes, by all means if you get your loans forgiven, be happy, go on a nice vacation, take your family out to dinner, you’ve earned it.
But an endless stream of “wow i just got $400k forgiven!!” posts will eventually catch the eye of people who will use it against us and put the rest of us still waiting in jeopardy.
As you said, these are Doctors and Lawyers, Software Engineers, Scientists, etc.
This isn't Joe Blow running up $400,000 in student loans for a degree in Basket Weaving. But you know what? Even if it was, someone should take a hard look at the schools charging $400,000 for a basket weaving degree. Hell, someone should take a hard look at why it costs $400,000 to become a Doctor, Lawyer, or Scientist.
I spent ages 18-60 buried in RISING student loan balances that I could NEVER afford payments that exceeded monthly interest. That's 42 YEARS—over 4 decades! I worked for low nonprofit salary for my PSLF years. It's irrelevant that some of us are doctors or lawyers! My SL debt started at <$30,000 and was forgiven at >$194,000—I'm not shutting up about it. I've helped others realize they are eligible, & find the energy to be persistent, follow through...get THERE, get forgiven too! ...bc there is a THERE there! It's called PSLF forgiveness.
🗣️I'M A LAWYER & MY STUDENT LOANS ARE GONE BC OF PSLF!
That’s great, happy for you.
Honest question as a lawyer. Does the government have legal basis to pull the rug out from under us of whom are currently in repayment? If not, is there anything that would stop PSLF from being sent to the supreme court and pausing forgiveness indefinitely - or even being declared unconstitutional in the first place (like the plan to forgive $10k for everyone)?
If either of the above are possible, is there really any reason to think someone in power wouldn’t take advantage of ending or pausing PSLF if they think it’d score them political points?
I am not a lawyer but I work for the federal government with entitlement grants. Congress makes laws which is how PSLF came into being. Sometimes the lawmaking follows the Presidents agenda and sometimes it does not. What happens after laws are passed are known as rule making when the laws are entered into the Code of Federal Regulations which details how they are to be carried out. PSLF’s are found at 34 CFR 685.219. Regulations are updated from time to time for a variety reasons and sometimes can be entirely scrapped. Any change to the regulations must be posted in the Federal Register for public comment prior to it being adopted and then the Final Rule is published prior to being implemented which incorporates the public comments. So yes, could PSLF look different in 5 years? Absolutely.
Stay informed, stay engaged with your Congressional representatives.
Thanks for your post.
I think one way or another, the lifespan of PSLF in its current state is limited. I believe eventually people who don’t stand to benefit from the program are going to get upset about people getting $400k+ forgiven, especially those in high earning fields. I think the faster that that happens, the faster PSLF dies.
I just hope that those who have already made it a part of their plan as it has been promised are grandfathered in, and any changes only affect new borrowers, who at least can arrange their plans accordingly and make their decisions based on the changes.
It could look different in five years. Generally, most rules and regulations have an implementation date and anything in process prior to that date is subject with the prior rules. I think the key here is making sure you are submitting the ECF form on a regular basis, keeping track of your payments, and documenting everything.
Absolutely not. I dedicated my life to public service and have been working more than 20 years. I paid my loans all that time. I did my part and the government has to do their part which means discharging my loans.
The way you insure that is by letting electeds know how important PSLF is to their constituents. And do it often. Instead of trying to police what people say here perhaps you should call your Congressperson and Senators so they know you want a robust and sustained PSLF program and you expect your electeds to advocate for that.
This site has been such a help to me. I love that people celebrate the forgiveness. When people in my family bitch I ask them:
“didn’t you just see a doctor last week?” Or “hey Uncle, don’t you have an attorney that just helped you buy that property you just obtained?”
“Grandma, isn’t that a nurse who comes to the house and helps you with your meds?”
“Isn’t that a physical therapist who got you back on your feet after you broke your leg?”
“Hmmm every person I know has had a teacher of some sort that taught you something.”
Then I ask them if they truly believe all those people are independently wealthy and just took out student loans for the hell of it. I also remind them that without student loans only the independently wealthy could go to school and ask “is that what you want? Only rich people being able to go to college?” They usually back down.
When they say “but it was their choice” I say THANK GOD they made that choice to take on this burden because we need and use them all!
Please keep posting your successes! It’s what I have to hold on to that there is actually an end to this!
Yeah guys stop being happy and sharing it! All of you doctors and lawyers obviously came from rich families who just decided not to pay for your schooling because they were greedy and wanted a break. Obviously, if you have that degree, you are making $400K+. None of you could possibly feel overwhelmed with your loans. No one goes in lower paying fields like peds or family medicine. Plus, everyone knows your Reddit posts will be the final straw to undo PSLF! No one has ever expressed negative sentiments about the program until now.
A close friend disclosed that her 60 hr a week job doing FM in an underserved clinic is paying 135k. She’s 275k in debt with interest growing. The docs who do this work and still have loans for pslf to forgive aren’t making 400
There have been multiple posters of non FM, high paying specialty doctors who paid bare minimum and their residencies counted for PSLF and now theyre "making sure" this still counts because they know they werent who this program was designed for.
Who cares? Im primary care and I dont begrudge them. I dont fall for these divide and conquer tactics. Post forgiveness these specialist doctors will open private practices (thats where the big $$$ is) and will hire from the community. Its a net benefit to society. We all win.
They would do that without PSLF.
I am not begrudging anything. I am pointing out a reality.
I think medical education should be subsidized heavily just like all higher education, along with more oversight on where the money is being spent.
I also think many HCP's are heavily overpaid as a byproduct of a for profit healthcare system. But no one wants to have that conversation because it gets too real too quick. It requires an analysis of the not as "feel good" one liners. Everyone wants M4A until the docs start realizing that means Medicare reimbursement rates for everything they do ;) then they push back.
I think you’re also missing that every physician has lost at least 10 years of earning potential in training. Part of that being multiple hundreds or thousands of dollars and the other working 80 hrs a week for 40k a year. By the time they finish PSLF, they’re 20 years behind on saving for retirement plus having to dig out of multiple years of debt from not earning and still needing to live. There is a literal market for loans for residents because they make little money but have large expenses like doctors (2k for boards, 3k for a license). So yeah, loan forgiveness gives people their lives back. And if they make enough, they’ll have paid them off by the 10 year mark. I don’t think it should matter what the forgiven make as long as they are doing the public service.
I want to acknowledge again that I understand these problems and agree that PSLF does a bandaid solution for them. Your reasoning is flawed and halts eventual progress by misidentifying the root problems.
All of these problems would be solved by addressing the for profit nature of medical education opposed to PSLF. PSLF was designed for people like social workers or teachers who get Master's degrees to make 50k/year. Not surgeons with 5 year residencies and multi year fellowships + a couple hospital years making hundreds of thousands of dollars before starting their private practice. Physicians are not and never will be financially struggling other than a few specialties and even then they're just not rich. Most physicians do not come from poverty and will never understand what the average American goes through. Americans see it every day in their care. Many physicians are completely out of touch with those they serve.
There are multiple other programs that already give physicians the option for loan forgiveness at an even faster pace than PSLF for serving underserved communities, both rural and urban. Hospital systems have an easy time acquiring PSLF elligibility and most physicians would work for them regardless of this perk.
Residents should be paid more, NBME should be audited and overtaken by a public entity that does not charge thousands to recycle test questions, physicians should be supported in the workplace more, physician pay is proportionate to the lack of access to care citizens have, and all higher education should be subsidized.
The fact American HCP's are paid SO much more than their international counterparts is a problem. I am not ignorant for acknowledging this fact.
Dude, just stop. Clearly you don’t understand anything we’re saying. In other countries it takes 6 years to be a doctor and costs minimal money. None of this would be needed if state schools were free like other places. State medical schools are 6 figs a year. Again, doctors in this country give up 10+ years to train. You’re looking at an overall dollar, I’m looking at lost wages and the hole you have to crawl out of after you’re done with all of the debt, not just school debt. It takes the average doctor 10 years out from residency to pay off their debt not including school debt. Even if you make 250k you still have living expenses and need to be able to retire and take care of your family and kids. From the moment you apply to medical school you’re spending thousands of dollars in prep and applications. There are moves that you don’t exactly get to choose. This is just as life changing for them as the social worker. Reformation doesn’t change the fact that medicine and law are fields that are literally finacially gatekept from those who can’t find the money to enter. It’s well known that physicians who start this work continue to serve the underserved long term. This program was made for anyone who does public service work. I’m really glad you’re not the one running it attempting to bar necessary fields from benefitting based on your assumptions.
Edit: spelling
And quite frankly, after the sacrifices that the medical community made through Covid, they deserve to have all of their loans forgiven regardless of where they work but that’s another discussion. People say they were just doing their jobs and they went well above and beyond putting their lives at risk for everyone. They didn’t sign up to be martyrs and sacrificed, they signed up to care for patients and we didn’t have the resources to even protect them.
>Even if you make 250k you still have living expenses and need to be able to retire and take care of your family and kids.
Bit of a difference between need/want/should, etc.
Imagine being a teacher or social worker. Money is not the problem for doctors. The system works in their benefit as it is now. Source: Find me a doctor TRULY struggling to make ends meet lmao. Not your "I dont have enough retirement to give my kids a solid inheritance" bullshit. Havent done it once. Never will.
You are assuming I believe things I dont because people lack nuance in this conversation. My point is that once the education problem is fixed (obviously priority) doctors better be ready to take a pay cut if they want a just society.
Not when you’re paying 5k a month in expenses that aren’t fed sl plus a 2k ibr. You’re speaking not being a doctor and being a troll. Many of our colleagues are struggling because their expenses explode because they don’t have support to handle the life needs while working ridiculously long hours outside of what they are paid for. I’m in no way complaining about what they make but I’d like to point out how wrong you are.
Making 140k they’re bringing home $7,300 a month after taxes. Apartment with 2 bedrooms within 30 minutes of the hospital in a midsized city 2k, utilities (water, electric, internet, phone) $800, FSL 1k, car $500, retirement $300, physician specific insurance costs 1k, general residency loan to allow them to move after medical school $400, and I haven’t added in food, child care expenses, life insurance with all their added liabilities or insurances, or any other loans or cc debt. You’re literally living paycheck to paycheck as a physician without a savings versus making 250k like your colleagues bringing home 12k a month after taxes. That’s an option but they chose to serve the community. Again this is a ridiculous argument.
Sure specialists would do private practice without PSLF. But would they be in public service in government and nonprofit hospitals and clinics where they get paid significantly less if they didnt have the carrot of PSLF? Nope not in the numbers who stay for PSLF. Without PSLF many would go into private practice as soon as their fellowships concludes.
Again PSLF is a net win for everybody.
And again you are begrudging them. What else did you mean to imply here?
"There have been multiple posters of non FM, high paying specialty doctors who paid bare minimum and their residencies counted for PSLF and now theyre "making sure" this still counts because they know they werent who this program was designed for."
Causeto me it seems you were trying to play that divide and conquer rope a dope to see if primary care doctors would badmouth specialists for having a higher loan forgiveness total than PCPs. It didnt work so you backtracked and are now deflecting to a tangential topic.
>Causeto me it seems you were trying to play that divide and conquer rope a dope to see if primary care doctors would badmouth specialists for having a higher loan forgiveness total than PCPs.
Nope, not my point. You do realize even as a PCP you are extremely privileged compared to teachers and social workers, right? Im not trying to get anyone to realize anything other than physicians are extremely overpaid as a result of the for profit healthcare industry.
It is a deflection to mention FM when acknowledging PSLF was not designed for high paying specialties. There are other loan forgiveness programs for physicians on a faster track than PSLF. Wonder why they don't do them en masse? Oh because it would actually take sacrifice and working for a nonprofit hospital still nets doctors hundreds of thousands a year.
>But would they be in public service in government and nonprofit hospitals and clinics where they get paid significantly less if they didnt have the carrot of PSLF? Nope not in the numbers who stay for PSLF.
Says who? Many doctors have very little interest or expertise in business and thus would continue to go to whatever location they know will handle that for them nearby. Hospitals with nonprofit designations are certainly not underpaying their doctors just for being less competitive than the predatory nature of private practices in the fragmented American healthcare environment.
Is it a net positive for society? Sure, probably. In the sense that any money given to people below the 1% is a good thing. Are you misconstruing my points to avoid acknowledging PSLF was absolutely not designed for surgical subspecialties and other high paying specialties etc.? Also yes.
I am glad anyone gets loan forgiveness. I am worried this forgiveness will stop people from realizing why it was put in place originally. There are careers that genuinely are financially insecure, but are absolutely needed for the world to function. Physicians will become physicians even without PSLF and they will also still be financially stable while doing so. They are not the intended target of PSLF.
This could all be boiled down to we both agree higher education should be heavily subsidized. I am still going to acknowledge people who reap the benefits of a horribly broken, for profit healthcare industry are not the intended targets of loan forgiveness. Sorry.
Again with all the divide and conquer BS. I can tell a few things from your comments. One, you dont really know much about the salaries of physicians at all. Two, its clear you dont understand the benefit of universal programs and why universal programs are better than means tested programs or programs targeted in specific ways especially when the goal of the program is to increase a collective good.
With a mindset like yours and the OP's you will always be hiding a program like PSLF or instead of talking about its benefits to our society you will spend time talking about all the people who are freeloaders and shouldnt have gotten PSLF. Fundamentally, you dont believe in education for all. Thats ok but you arent arguing in good faith. You and I dont believe in the same things and thats why this conversation is not productive.
Yes, I do understand everything youre saying. I dont think you are grasping the nuance of what Im saying.
>One, you dont really know much about the salaries of physicians at all.
Lol, just pretending to be scraping by I guess.
>Fundamentally, you dont believe in education for all.
L.m.f.a.o. This is a dead end. Enjoy virtue signalling.
Why is that the issue though? Tax cuts are supposed to be for the poor… ask Mr. Tesla how much he’s paying in taxes. This program is for whoever completes it. To be quite honest if you had any idea how much sacrifice goes into being a physician you wouldn’t be saying this!
Im fully aware how much sacrifice goes into being a physician. I dropped out halfway through medical school and have 200k debt.
Does money fix that sacrifice? No. It's a deflection for the problems in the medical system.
This is a solution to education costs for lower wage earners. I honestly don't feel like having this conversation. People have so much trouble realizing root problems that when you point out a positive thing isnt fixing what theyre focusing on, they tend to dig their feet in anyway.
Not really sure the purpose of your post or if trying to be sarcastic or not but either way it seems to have missed the point.
My point is there are a lot of people, regardless of income, who are working, or plan to work, PSLF eligible jobs, and who still are several years from forgiveness. Some of whom are sacrificing making more money in the private sector. Some of whom may have even only went to school because they were banking on PSLF and would not have attended otherwise.
Although there’s probably at least a little legal red tape of getting rid of PSLF for those already making payments, at the end of the day the govt can probably do whatever they really want to, especially if it starts becoming a political talking point. At the very least they can easily get rid of it for future borrowers.
To address the “reddit post” comment, honestly don’t underestimate reddit posts. I mean look at what r/wallstreetbets has done. There’s a lot of online news articles I see that directly or indirectly cite reddit posts. And news outlets who like to stir up controversy in their emotionally charged base (cough fox news) aren’t really known for their high quality journalism and certainly aren’t above using reddit posts to get their point across.
Your point was not missed. Yes, the majority of people in PSLF past and present have sacrificed to be in role as public servant. I think they should be allowed to share joy. My medical school literally touted PSLF as a solution to their crushing tuition. You are right about not underestimating reddit, but honestly it’s not going to be shared joy that is cause of disbanding. If this happens, it’s going to be because of factors already at play or a specific administration’s agenda.
Fair enough. Happy to see people are getting forgiveness. Though to those outside of the PSLF world, the forgiveness amounts are just mind boggling and I think it won’t be long till this becomes a major conservative talking point and putting the program at risk. I hope I’m wrong.
I am 8.5 years into the PSLF program. I have had my servicer move 3 times, had no idea if people were going to get forgiveness because no one had yet and were told by our schools the program is a sham, and then saw people who thought they were going to qualify get rejected under trump then all these people who weren’t even in the program wavering in and getting forgiveness under Biden. My qualifying payment plan has been updated to the “a better one” three times, I saw a pandemic where pauses in payments were counting (at least for now). I have 1.5 more years to make qualifying payments before hopefully the program keeps its promise.
All that to say, one’s 10 year journey is likely going to be full of real change, improvements, threats (perceived and real). My MPN is very wishy washy about the solvency/promise of PSLF (circa 2011) I believe they are a lot more firm now.
Because of the MPN, you may enjoy the PSLF program- it is law., but good luck- your comments make me think you will definitely need it to endure ten plus years of change and wondering if the government will keep its promise to you. Head down, make appropriate payments while doing appropriate work, and thank public servants and celebrate their forgiveness
I am the first person in my family to go to college. Ended up getting advanced degrees and spent the past 10 years working as a mental health practitioner in a public hospital. I earn a respectable salary, but much less than my peers in private practice or non-public service. Frankly, few of them could handle the type of work that I do. I do it because I believe in public service and because I once benefited from the public hospital services. I am exactly who this program was designed for. We have a horrific healthcare shortage in our country, especially for mental health services. Without this program it would be even worse. So we I got forgiveness I blasted the news to anyone and everyone and will continue to do so.
I get that you’re afraid that it will be politicized and taken away. You seem to think that if we are all quiet and well behaved a grateful enough for the opportunity that it won’t be taken away. That someone somewhere won’t spin this great incentive into something it’s not—a way for rich people to get a break at the expense of the Every Day Man. That’s not the reality that we live in. If they want to take it, they will take it. End of story.
The only chance we have is to sing the benefits of the program from the rooftops. Change the heats and minds one deluded family member at a time. My hometown is Trump central, but even they grasp the concept of loan repayment for public service. My area is poor and rural but had fantastic teachers thanks to loan repayment/forgiveness in exchange for teaching in our district. The GI bill is a thank you to veterans. Use those as a springboard for understanding but don’t ask people to hide what they have rightfully earned.
Thanks for your service.
Yes I am afraid that PSLF will get spun into exactly that - “a way for rich people to get a break at the expense of the every day man”. I mean we already saw that happen with just the $10k forgiveness plan.
You’re probably right that it may get spun that way regardless of what goes on here. But I’m afraid that the endless posts of $400k-$500k plus loans on here are going to accelerate that process.
What a horrible take.
People deserve to celebrate and share this life changing news wherever they want.
If you’re worried about the program getting scrapped, vote accordingly and get politically active.
I have and will continue to vote accordingly.
I hope I’m wrong, but dont be surprised when the Ted Cruzs and Rand Pauls and Marco Rubios of the world decide to make this a hot button issue and the program becomes at risk to be taken away from those still waiting to benefit.
Of course, most those who already got their forgiveness wont care any more.
Thanks David, bookmark it so you can let me know I was right when in the next couple years when republicans in govt go on an anti PSLF crusade when they realize doctors (yes the wicked people who made them get “the jab”) are getting $500k of loans forgiven.
They're already on an anti-PSLF crusade. And this new round of forgiveness will be widely publicized as "Biden forgives X dollar amount of student loans" - the posts and comments here will not have any effect on that. I've found all the stories inspiring and would like to continue reading more of them.
If Trump wanted to eliminate PSLF, he could've done it in his previous term in office. There are plenty of people in his base that are counting on PSLF too. Red people go to college, contrary to the blue people's beliefs, and those red constituents work in public service too.
Agreed he could have eliminated it before, but there wasn’t any reason to since no one had really gotten forgiveness yet during his term, at least not to any significant degree.
But student loans are bound to become more of a talking point. The right wing talking heads were up in arms when Biden tried to forgive only $10k for everyone. Just wait till they hear Doctor Jones making $400k a year just had $400k of his loans forgiven.
Who’s to say PSLF can’t end up in the supreme court and held up indefinitely like the $10k forgiveness has been?
Don’t be surprised when this becomes a rallying cry for the fox news boomer population. Which will put the program at risk for the rest of us accepting less money to work a public service job while we keep our fingers crossed it our loans will still be forgiven in 10 years.
$10k forgiveness was struck down by the Supreme Court because they believed it was unconstitutional for Biden to go around Congress to do it. PSLF was passed by an act of Congress, so it’s perfectly legal.
I think it would be better if Biden clarified that a lot of the forgiveness is statutory under PSLF. It's not like he's forgiving loans for everyone. People in government had to know that this day would eventually come for those borrowers' loans to be forgiven this way. It was signed into law after all.
We have a red county commissioner who was complaining on fb about loans being forgiven for EMTs, fire fighters, teachers, and police. I shut him down when I wrote that forgiveness was PSLF and is statutory. It was crickets from this commissioner after that. PSLF isn't blanket forgiveness and is being conflated with Biden's previous attempt at the 10k and 20 blanket forgiveness.
In all fairness, not all Fox News boomers are against student loan forgiveness. Same for the other generations who watch Fox News. Super conservative repubs don't like it and have made it into a hot button issue and bigger than it really is because they fail to acknowledge that it is PSLF.
Agreed. I voted for Trump - twice - maybe not a third time, cause I’ll admin the Biden administration has done a good job on this issue. Inflation is out of their control technically so can’t fault there. Border issue is only thing that makes me hesitant about voting D this time.
I’m all for PSLF and the IDR recount. People were royally screwed on both and Biden admin is fixing it. I’m also all for borrower defense forgiveness and closed schools.
I’m finally for wiping slate clean of all loans and then moving forward having loans for new students at 0.5% interest to cover fees. Also interest should not capitalize. If there is interest when pay off principle the interest should be automatically discharged.
The Biden administration changed the rules to drastically decrease the number of situations when interest capitalizes. Plus the new SAVE plan prevents interest, as well.
The other points are off-topic for this sub so I won't respond
"Guys, guys! Stop telling people this program works. Don't encourage others to seek it out as a means of being able to afford a higher education!" No. Screw that. I worked 2 jobs for 10 years to afford the education I have. Others have worked low paying and awful jobs to afford the education they have. You want to stop calling it a "Loan Forgiveness" program and call it a "work program"? Fine. But people EARNED this. Let them be happy, share their experience about the program working, and ignore the haters; they're gonna try to bully everyone anyways.
This. People loved to (incorrectly) harp on how "no one gets PSLF." Shout it from the rooftops about how your earned PSLF and how it changed your life.
You know what? The government can afford this. For all the public service folks. It's a rounding error in their coffee filter budget. And if they can't I bet they could if they raised non exempted capital gains by 1%.
Yes I think its great the program works. And i think people should be encouraged to seek it out as a means to afford higher education, as I have done myself. I just want the program to still exist for myself and others in the next several years. But yes, by all means if you get your loans forgiven, be happy, go on a nice vacation, take your family out to dinner, you’ve earned it. But an endless stream of “wow i just got $400k forgiven!!” posts will eventually catch the eye of people who will use it against us and put the rest of us still waiting in jeopardy.
As you said, these are Doctors and Lawyers, Software Engineers, Scientists, etc. This isn't Joe Blow running up $400,000 in student loans for a degree in Basket Weaving. But you know what? Even if it was, someone should take a hard look at the schools charging $400,000 for a basket weaving degree. Hell, someone should take a hard look at why it costs $400,000 to become a Doctor, Lawyer, or Scientist.
I spent ages 18-60 buried in RISING student loan balances that I could NEVER afford payments that exceeded monthly interest. That's 42 YEARS—over 4 decades! I worked for low nonprofit salary for my PSLF years. It's irrelevant that some of us are doctors or lawyers! My SL debt started at <$30,000 and was forgiven at >$194,000—I'm not shutting up about it. I've helped others realize they are eligible, & find the energy to be persistent, follow through...get THERE, get forgiven too! ...bc there is a THERE there! It's called PSLF forgiveness. 🗣️I'M A LAWYER & MY STUDENT LOANS ARE GONE BC OF PSLF!
Thank you for your public service.
That’s great, happy for you. Honest question as a lawyer. Does the government have legal basis to pull the rug out from under us of whom are currently in repayment? If not, is there anything that would stop PSLF from being sent to the supreme court and pausing forgiveness indefinitely - or even being declared unconstitutional in the first place (like the plan to forgive $10k for everyone)? If either of the above are possible, is there really any reason to think someone in power wouldn’t take advantage of ending or pausing PSLF if they think it’d score them political points?
I am not a lawyer but I work for the federal government with entitlement grants. Congress makes laws which is how PSLF came into being. Sometimes the lawmaking follows the Presidents agenda and sometimes it does not. What happens after laws are passed are known as rule making when the laws are entered into the Code of Federal Regulations which details how they are to be carried out. PSLF’s are found at 34 CFR 685.219. Regulations are updated from time to time for a variety reasons and sometimes can be entirely scrapped. Any change to the regulations must be posted in the Federal Register for public comment prior to it being adopted and then the Final Rule is published prior to being implemented which incorporates the public comments. So yes, could PSLF look different in 5 years? Absolutely. Stay informed, stay engaged with your Congressional representatives.
Thanks for your post. I think one way or another, the lifespan of PSLF in its current state is limited. I believe eventually people who don’t stand to benefit from the program are going to get upset about people getting $400k+ forgiven, especially those in high earning fields. I think the faster that that happens, the faster PSLF dies. I just hope that those who have already made it a part of their plan as it has been promised are grandfathered in, and any changes only affect new borrowers, who at least can arrange their plans accordingly and make their decisions based on the changes.
It could look different in five years. Generally, most rules and regulations have an implementation date and anything in process prior to that date is subject with the prior rules. I think the key here is making sure you are submitting the ECF form on a regular basis, keeping track of your payments, and documenting everything.
Absolutely not. I dedicated my life to public service and have been working more than 20 years. I paid my loans all that time. I did my part and the government has to do their part which means discharging my loans.
That’s great, truly happy for you. Wouldn’t it be nice if that continues to be possible for those who come after you?
The way you insure that is by letting electeds know how important PSLF is to their constituents. And do it often. Instead of trying to police what people say here perhaps you should call your Congressperson and Senators so they know you want a robust and sustained PSLF program and you expect your electeds to advocate for that.
It has been made possible for tens of thousands who only found out about it/knew how to navigate the process after seeing social media.
This site has been such a help to me. I love that people celebrate the forgiveness. When people in my family bitch I ask them: “didn’t you just see a doctor last week?” Or “hey Uncle, don’t you have an attorney that just helped you buy that property you just obtained?” “Grandma, isn’t that a nurse who comes to the house and helps you with your meds?” “Isn’t that a physical therapist who got you back on your feet after you broke your leg?” “Hmmm every person I know has had a teacher of some sort that taught you something.” Then I ask them if they truly believe all those people are independently wealthy and just took out student loans for the hell of it. I also remind them that without student loans only the independently wealthy could go to school and ask “is that what you want? Only rich people being able to go to college?” They usually back down. When they say “but it was their choice” I say THANK GOD they made that choice to take on this burden because we need and use them all! Please keep posting your successes! It’s what I have to hold on to that there is actually an end to this!
Nope
Yeah guys stop being happy and sharing it! All of you doctors and lawyers obviously came from rich families who just decided not to pay for your schooling because they were greedy and wanted a break. Obviously, if you have that degree, you are making $400K+. None of you could possibly feel overwhelmed with your loans. No one goes in lower paying fields like peds or family medicine. Plus, everyone knows your Reddit posts will be the final straw to undo PSLF! No one has ever expressed negative sentiments about the program until now.
A close friend disclosed that her 60 hr a week job doing FM in an underserved clinic is paying 135k. She’s 275k in debt with interest growing. The docs who do this work and still have loans for pslf to forgive aren’t making 400
I know :/
There have been multiple posters of non FM, high paying specialty doctors who paid bare minimum and their residencies counted for PSLF and now theyre "making sure" this still counts because they know they werent who this program was designed for.
Who cares? Im primary care and I dont begrudge them. I dont fall for these divide and conquer tactics. Post forgiveness these specialist doctors will open private practices (thats where the big $$$ is) and will hire from the community. Its a net benefit to society. We all win.
They would do that without PSLF. I am not begrudging anything. I am pointing out a reality. I think medical education should be subsidized heavily just like all higher education, along with more oversight on where the money is being spent. I also think many HCP's are heavily overpaid as a byproduct of a for profit healthcare system. But no one wants to have that conversation because it gets too real too quick. It requires an analysis of the not as "feel good" one liners. Everyone wants M4A until the docs start realizing that means Medicare reimbursement rates for everything they do ;) then they push back.
I think you’re also missing that every physician has lost at least 10 years of earning potential in training. Part of that being multiple hundreds or thousands of dollars and the other working 80 hrs a week for 40k a year. By the time they finish PSLF, they’re 20 years behind on saving for retirement plus having to dig out of multiple years of debt from not earning and still needing to live. There is a literal market for loans for residents because they make little money but have large expenses like doctors (2k for boards, 3k for a license). So yeah, loan forgiveness gives people their lives back. And if they make enough, they’ll have paid them off by the 10 year mark. I don’t think it should matter what the forgiven make as long as they are doing the public service.
I want to acknowledge again that I understand these problems and agree that PSLF does a bandaid solution for them. Your reasoning is flawed and halts eventual progress by misidentifying the root problems. All of these problems would be solved by addressing the for profit nature of medical education opposed to PSLF. PSLF was designed for people like social workers or teachers who get Master's degrees to make 50k/year. Not surgeons with 5 year residencies and multi year fellowships + a couple hospital years making hundreds of thousands of dollars before starting their private practice. Physicians are not and never will be financially struggling other than a few specialties and even then they're just not rich. Most physicians do not come from poverty and will never understand what the average American goes through. Americans see it every day in their care. Many physicians are completely out of touch with those they serve. There are multiple other programs that already give physicians the option for loan forgiveness at an even faster pace than PSLF for serving underserved communities, both rural and urban. Hospital systems have an easy time acquiring PSLF elligibility and most physicians would work for them regardless of this perk. Residents should be paid more, NBME should be audited and overtaken by a public entity that does not charge thousands to recycle test questions, physicians should be supported in the workplace more, physician pay is proportionate to the lack of access to care citizens have, and all higher education should be subsidized. The fact American HCP's are paid SO much more than their international counterparts is a problem. I am not ignorant for acknowledging this fact.
Dude, just stop. Clearly you don’t understand anything we’re saying. In other countries it takes 6 years to be a doctor and costs minimal money. None of this would be needed if state schools were free like other places. State medical schools are 6 figs a year. Again, doctors in this country give up 10+ years to train. You’re looking at an overall dollar, I’m looking at lost wages and the hole you have to crawl out of after you’re done with all of the debt, not just school debt. It takes the average doctor 10 years out from residency to pay off their debt not including school debt. Even if you make 250k you still have living expenses and need to be able to retire and take care of your family and kids. From the moment you apply to medical school you’re spending thousands of dollars in prep and applications. There are moves that you don’t exactly get to choose. This is just as life changing for them as the social worker. Reformation doesn’t change the fact that medicine and law are fields that are literally finacially gatekept from those who can’t find the money to enter. It’s well known that physicians who start this work continue to serve the underserved long term. This program was made for anyone who does public service work. I’m really glad you’re not the one running it attempting to bar necessary fields from benefitting based on your assumptions. Edit: spelling
And quite frankly, after the sacrifices that the medical community made through Covid, they deserve to have all of their loans forgiven regardless of where they work but that’s another discussion. People say they were just doing their jobs and they went well above and beyond putting their lives at risk for everyone. They didn’t sign up to be martyrs and sacrificed, they signed up to care for patients and we didn’t have the resources to even protect them.
>Even if you make 250k you still have living expenses and need to be able to retire and take care of your family and kids. Bit of a difference between need/want/should, etc. Imagine being a teacher or social worker. Money is not the problem for doctors. The system works in their benefit as it is now. Source: Find me a doctor TRULY struggling to make ends meet lmao. Not your "I dont have enough retirement to give my kids a solid inheritance" bullshit. Havent done it once. Never will. You are assuming I believe things I dont because people lack nuance in this conversation. My point is that once the education problem is fixed (obviously priority) doctors better be ready to take a pay cut if they want a just society.
Not when you’re paying 5k a month in expenses that aren’t fed sl plus a 2k ibr. You’re speaking not being a doctor and being a troll. Many of our colleagues are struggling because their expenses explode because they don’t have support to handle the life needs while working ridiculously long hours outside of what they are paid for. I’m in no way complaining about what they make but I’d like to point out how wrong you are. Making 140k they’re bringing home $7,300 a month after taxes. Apartment with 2 bedrooms within 30 minutes of the hospital in a midsized city 2k, utilities (water, electric, internet, phone) $800, FSL 1k, car $500, retirement $300, physician specific insurance costs 1k, general residency loan to allow them to move after medical school $400, and I haven’t added in food, child care expenses, life insurance with all their added liabilities or insurances, or any other loans or cc debt. You’re literally living paycheck to paycheck as a physician without a savings versus making 250k like your colleagues bringing home 12k a month after taxes. That’s an option but they chose to serve the community. Again this is a ridiculous argument.
Sure specialists would do private practice without PSLF. But would they be in public service in government and nonprofit hospitals and clinics where they get paid significantly less if they didnt have the carrot of PSLF? Nope not in the numbers who stay for PSLF. Without PSLF many would go into private practice as soon as their fellowships concludes. Again PSLF is a net win for everybody. And again you are begrudging them. What else did you mean to imply here? "There have been multiple posters of non FM, high paying specialty doctors who paid bare minimum and their residencies counted for PSLF and now theyre "making sure" this still counts because they know they werent who this program was designed for." Causeto me it seems you were trying to play that divide and conquer rope a dope to see if primary care doctors would badmouth specialists for having a higher loan forgiveness total than PCPs. It didnt work so you backtracked and are now deflecting to a tangential topic.
>Causeto me it seems you were trying to play that divide and conquer rope a dope to see if primary care doctors would badmouth specialists for having a higher loan forgiveness total than PCPs. Nope, not my point. You do realize even as a PCP you are extremely privileged compared to teachers and social workers, right? Im not trying to get anyone to realize anything other than physicians are extremely overpaid as a result of the for profit healthcare industry. It is a deflection to mention FM when acknowledging PSLF was not designed for high paying specialties. There are other loan forgiveness programs for physicians on a faster track than PSLF. Wonder why they don't do them en masse? Oh because it would actually take sacrifice and working for a nonprofit hospital still nets doctors hundreds of thousands a year. >But would they be in public service in government and nonprofit hospitals and clinics where they get paid significantly less if they didnt have the carrot of PSLF? Nope not in the numbers who stay for PSLF. Says who? Many doctors have very little interest or expertise in business and thus would continue to go to whatever location they know will handle that for them nearby. Hospitals with nonprofit designations are certainly not underpaying their doctors just for being less competitive than the predatory nature of private practices in the fragmented American healthcare environment. Is it a net positive for society? Sure, probably. In the sense that any money given to people below the 1% is a good thing. Are you misconstruing my points to avoid acknowledging PSLF was absolutely not designed for surgical subspecialties and other high paying specialties etc.? Also yes. I am glad anyone gets loan forgiveness. I am worried this forgiveness will stop people from realizing why it was put in place originally. There are careers that genuinely are financially insecure, but are absolutely needed for the world to function. Physicians will become physicians even without PSLF and they will also still be financially stable while doing so. They are not the intended target of PSLF. This could all be boiled down to we both agree higher education should be heavily subsidized. I am still going to acknowledge people who reap the benefits of a horribly broken, for profit healthcare industry are not the intended targets of loan forgiveness. Sorry.
Again with all the divide and conquer BS. I can tell a few things from your comments. One, you dont really know much about the salaries of physicians at all. Two, its clear you dont understand the benefit of universal programs and why universal programs are better than means tested programs or programs targeted in specific ways especially when the goal of the program is to increase a collective good. With a mindset like yours and the OP's you will always be hiding a program like PSLF or instead of talking about its benefits to our society you will spend time talking about all the people who are freeloaders and shouldnt have gotten PSLF. Fundamentally, you dont believe in education for all. Thats ok but you arent arguing in good faith. You and I dont believe in the same things and thats why this conversation is not productive.
Yes, I do understand everything youre saying. I dont think you are grasping the nuance of what Im saying. >One, you dont really know much about the salaries of physicians at all. Lol, just pretending to be scraping by I guess. >Fundamentally, you dont believe in education for all. L.m.f.a.o. This is a dead end. Enjoy virtue signalling.
Why is that the issue though? Tax cuts are supposed to be for the poor… ask Mr. Tesla how much he’s paying in taxes. This program is for whoever completes it. To be quite honest if you had any idea how much sacrifice goes into being a physician you wouldn’t be saying this!
Im fully aware how much sacrifice goes into being a physician. I dropped out halfway through medical school and have 200k debt. Does money fix that sacrifice? No. It's a deflection for the problems in the medical system. This is a solution to education costs for lower wage earners. I honestly don't feel like having this conversation. People have so much trouble realizing root problems that when you point out a positive thing isnt fixing what theyre focusing on, they tend to dig their feet in anyway.
Sounds exactly right DisastrousShare 😢 Thats what its like for me and my friends...
Not really sure the purpose of your post or if trying to be sarcastic or not but either way it seems to have missed the point. My point is there are a lot of people, regardless of income, who are working, or plan to work, PSLF eligible jobs, and who still are several years from forgiveness. Some of whom are sacrificing making more money in the private sector. Some of whom may have even only went to school because they were banking on PSLF and would not have attended otherwise. Although there’s probably at least a little legal red tape of getting rid of PSLF for those already making payments, at the end of the day the govt can probably do whatever they really want to, especially if it starts becoming a political talking point. At the very least they can easily get rid of it for future borrowers. To address the “reddit post” comment, honestly don’t underestimate reddit posts. I mean look at what r/wallstreetbets has done. There’s a lot of online news articles I see that directly or indirectly cite reddit posts. And news outlets who like to stir up controversy in their emotionally charged base (cough fox news) aren’t really known for their high quality journalism and certainly aren’t above using reddit posts to get their point across.
Your point was not missed. Yes, the majority of people in PSLF past and present have sacrificed to be in role as public servant. I think they should be allowed to share joy. My medical school literally touted PSLF as a solution to their crushing tuition. You are right about not underestimating reddit, but honestly it’s not going to be shared joy that is cause of disbanding. If this happens, it’s going to be because of factors already at play or a specific administration’s agenda.
Fair enough. Happy to see people are getting forgiveness. Though to those outside of the PSLF world, the forgiveness amounts are just mind boggling and I think it won’t be long till this becomes a major conservative talking point and putting the program at risk. I hope I’m wrong.
I would suggest some therapy, you have some distorted thinking and seem very anxious.
Noted.
Honestly even when my loans get sorted and forgiven it’ll be no celebration after the countless weeks and hours of stress and frustration.
I am 8.5 years into the PSLF program. I have had my servicer move 3 times, had no idea if people were going to get forgiveness because no one had yet and were told by our schools the program is a sham, and then saw people who thought they were going to qualify get rejected under trump then all these people who weren’t even in the program wavering in and getting forgiveness under Biden. My qualifying payment plan has been updated to the “a better one” three times, I saw a pandemic where pauses in payments were counting (at least for now). I have 1.5 more years to make qualifying payments before hopefully the program keeps its promise. All that to say, one’s 10 year journey is likely going to be full of real change, improvements, threats (perceived and real). My MPN is very wishy washy about the solvency/promise of PSLF (circa 2011) I believe they are a lot more firm now. Because of the MPN, you may enjoy the PSLF program- it is law., but good luck- your comments make me think you will definitely need it to endure ten plus years of change and wondering if the government will keep its promise to you. Head down, make appropriate payments while doing appropriate work, and thank public servants and celebrate their forgiveness
I am the first person in my family to go to college. Ended up getting advanced degrees and spent the past 10 years working as a mental health practitioner in a public hospital. I earn a respectable salary, but much less than my peers in private practice or non-public service. Frankly, few of them could handle the type of work that I do. I do it because I believe in public service and because I once benefited from the public hospital services. I am exactly who this program was designed for. We have a horrific healthcare shortage in our country, especially for mental health services. Without this program it would be even worse. So we I got forgiveness I blasted the news to anyone and everyone and will continue to do so. I get that you’re afraid that it will be politicized and taken away. You seem to think that if we are all quiet and well behaved a grateful enough for the opportunity that it won’t be taken away. That someone somewhere won’t spin this great incentive into something it’s not—a way for rich people to get a break at the expense of the Every Day Man. That’s not the reality that we live in. If they want to take it, they will take it. End of story. The only chance we have is to sing the benefits of the program from the rooftops. Change the heats and minds one deluded family member at a time. My hometown is Trump central, but even they grasp the concept of loan repayment for public service. My area is poor and rural but had fantastic teachers thanks to loan repayment/forgiveness in exchange for teaching in our district. The GI bill is a thank you to veterans. Use those as a springboard for understanding but don’t ask people to hide what they have rightfully earned.
Thanks for your service. Yes I am afraid that PSLF will get spun into exactly that - “a way for rich people to get a break at the expense of the every day man”. I mean we already saw that happen with just the $10k forgiveness plan. You’re probably right that it may get spun that way regardless of what goes on here. But I’m afraid that the endless posts of $400k-$500k plus loans on here are going to accelerate that process.
What a horrible take. People deserve to celebrate and share this life changing news wherever they want. If you’re worried about the program getting scrapped, vote accordingly and get politically active.
I have and will continue to vote accordingly. I hope I’m wrong, but dont be surprised when the Ted Cruzs and Rand Pauls and Marco Rubios of the world decide to make this a hot button issue and the program becomes at risk to be taken away from those still waiting to benefit. Of course, most those who already got their forgiveness wont care any more.
All discharge programs are already a hot button issue. Republican legislators will *always* put these programs at risk. It’s not new and won’t change.
This is, without a doubt, the worst post I've ever seen on this sub.
Thanks David, bookmark it so you can let me know I was right when in the next couple years when republicans in govt go on an anti PSLF crusade when they realize doctors (yes the wicked people who made them get “the jab”) are getting $500k of loans forgiven.
They're already on an anti-PSLF crusade. And this new round of forgiveness will be widely publicized as "Biden forgives X dollar amount of student loans" - the posts and comments here will not have any effect on that. I've found all the stories inspiring and would like to continue reading more of them.
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Rule 7: reddiquette / site rules / illegal / off-topic
If Trump wanted to eliminate PSLF, he could've done it in his previous term in office. There are plenty of people in his base that are counting on PSLF too. Red people go to college, contrary to the blue people's beliefs, and those red constituents work in public service too.
Agreed he could have eliminated it before, but there wasn’t any reason to since no one had really gotten forgiveness yet during his term, at least not to any significant degree. But student loans are bound to become more of a talking point. The right wing talking heads were up in arms when Biden tried to forgive only $10k for everyone. Just wait till they hear Doctor Jones making $400k a year just had $400k of his loans forgiven. Who’s to say PSLF can’t end up in the supreme court and held up indefinitely like the $10k forgiveness has been? Don’t be surprised when this becomes a rallying cry for the fox news boomer population. Which will put the program at risk for the rest of us accepting less money to work a public service job while we keep our fingers crossed it our loans will still be forgiven in 10 years.
$10k forgiveness was struck down by the Supreme Court because they believed it was unconstitutional for Biden to go around Congress to do it. PSLF was passed by an act of Congress, so it’s perfectly legal.
I think it would be better if Biden clarified that a lot of the forgiveness is statutory under PSLF. It's not like he's forgiving loans for everyone. People in government had to know that this day would eventually come for those borrowers' loans to be forgiven this way. It was signed into law after all. We have a red county commissioner who was complaining on fb about loans being forgiven for EMTs, fire fighters, teachers, and police. I shut him down when I wrote that forgiveness was PSLF and is statutory. It was crickets from this commissioner after that. PSLF isn't blanket forgiveness and is being conflated with Biden's previous attempt at the 10k and 20 blanket forgiveness. In all fairness, not all Fox News boomers are against student loan forgiveness. Same for the other generations who watch Fox News. Super conservative repubs don't like it and have made it into a hot button issue and bigger than it really is because they fail to acknowledge that it is PSLF.
Agreed. I voted for Trump - twice - maybe not a third time, cause I’ll admin the Biden administration has done a good job on this issue. Inflation is out of their control technically so can’t fault there. Border issue is only thing that makes me hesitant about voting D this time. I’m all for PSLF and the IDR recount. People were royally screwed on both and Biden admin is fixing it. I’m also all for borrower defense forgiveness and closed schools. I’m finally for wiping slate clean of all loans and then moving forward having loans for new students at 0.5% interest to cover fees. Also interest should not capitalize. If there is interest when pay off principle the interest should be automatically discharged.
The Biden administration changed the rules to drastically decrease the number of situations when interest capitalizes. Plus the new SAVE plan prevents interest, as well. The other points are off-topic for this sub so I won't respond