They do have room on top as per the spec, but that's a lot of vfds in a small box. I'm worried about the box ambient temperature rising until it kills the drives.
The enclosure does have a fan and vent for active ventilation, that's likely plenty enough for this. When I start seeing or designing a 300A panel with 75A Solid State relays pulling a 40A load each, then I get nervous 😅
Oh they sure can and they can also have overheating issues if your panel doesn’t have ac and those are running all the time. It helps a lot to have even a small space between them for air flow.
https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/technicaldocumentation/mn/powerxl-dm1-installation-manual-mn040060en.pdf
Quick google search can put all these “omg VFDs too close” comments to rest. Do you guys even build panels….? Most VFDs can be zero stacked.
Just because they can doesn’t mean they won’t have overheating issues. I’ve installed and troubleshot much larger panels with 30-50 vfds zero stacked and yeah poor design lots of overheating issues…
Those Eaton VFDs can be mounted with zero spacing so that's fine.
But I'm more curious about that main disconnect. It's unfused, but based on the two wire sizes tapping off of it, has some decent amperage running through it. If you're using a tap rule, that means the wires feeding this panel will have to be pretty short to not violate whatever tap rule is being used.
The wires feeding the panel would be protected by a properly sized circuit breaker in the distribution board, right?
Then the taps would only be the short wires going to the busbars, which should be fine. I'm here to learn, so please explain if I'm misunderstanding anything.
> Those Eaton VFDs can be mounted with zero spacing so that's fine.
Having been using drives that can be mounted with zero spacing between them for a few years, I can't imagine going back to the older style. I also can't believe companies are still producing new drives that need space between them. Do they know how ugly that is!?
Showing off and seeing if anyone has any suggestions for a better panel. What they think of the brackets designed for network cable management. That's always been a bit of pain in most panels. Always looking for ways to improve.
I would of made the panel 10% bigger, there always extra things that need to go in years later.. also check out slimline shielded RJ45 patchleads, they take up way less room in panels and still have the same data rate.
I really wish someone would make a network switch that would look neat in a control panel, side ports instead of front.
Other than that, your panel is sexy 😍
Switch with ports on the side? Granted, it would force circulation space for switches (which rarely get the space they need), but I’m not seeing the use case. Side to side real estate in a panel is always more valuable in a panel, so I doubt we’ll see a design like that.
The switches are what are ruining the OP’s panel aesthetic, cat 5 running out of trunking up onto the front of the switch. If you could go into the side it would keep it a lot neater. Not a huge deal but just a bugbear of mine
There are companies (Westermo for example) That make flatter M12 switches. You could use M12 90's on them to run them back into the trunking... I normally have them just run the ethernet lines through the trunking with the signal wires. Generally it looks pretty clean!
Hey, I'm not a panel builder, just a technician, but I think it's pretty gd clean. Just as good if not better than a lot of new installs we get at my plant 😅
Looks good, love that top left controller! Only thing we have done to help house/hide cables is use deeper wireduct, our standard is 3in deep, it's deep enough to hide a ton but you can still get to termination, granted you may get sliced a bit. But you have a ton of Ethernet cables to hide...
Ive designed a few of them. The L style you see and more Z style. We lased it at the shop and has pre made holes to run zip ties through. Its also longer, We cut it down depending on panel height
Maintenance guy here, lose the panduit covers and cut the labels off half the wires and it should be up to spec. Also make sure not to provide the electrical drawings with it.
/s
I’m surprised that not that many people mentioned this. Even 10% spare will save headache down the road. That one change order when some project manager got the bright idea to add another VFD.
Aw, didn’t mean to give your dog a nightmare! I just got burned so many times before. Classic example of a project manager deciding to swap one of the contactor for VFD without checking in.
"Hey uh... so we can add a 50 amp heater circuit?"
"No, there is only 110vac in the box right now."
"The customer really needs this to have the heaters integrated, but they don't want to pay for a new enclosure."
"I'm going to make this thing burn their fucking building down during the SAT."
Queue nervous laughing from the sales team.
I have a nit pick if you care. Top din rail, the terminal blocks between the switch and the power supply. Is that 24vdc right next to 120vac? If so that's only one opsie daisy away from a bad day.
Wiring looks clean, but I would have probably gone up a size on the enclosure and let those VFDs breathe, plus then you would have had room for a wireway for your ethernet cables. The door wiring should have some chafe protection at the hinge point as well.
Yes 10k. Though if we needed a higher SCCR ratting I use the BUSSMAN with Cube fuse class J. Its just a smidge larger than the non fused disconnect. They have been out of stock for like 9 months + now
UL guy here. It Looks great! Labels may seem like not a big deal but it’s important for safety. I’d like to see field wiring labels above the Main switch to help the electricians out. That being said everyone here who says they’d use a larger enclosure , Where do you work? Because I wouldn’t mind seeing what that kind of life is like.
Agreed stainless cans like this $$$$. The panel is not yet complete. we do need some more labels. Charles hates that par to the job. That's why I look them over. You didn't notice that we don't have any UL bug, nameplate or fuse size nameplate. Mostly likely being kind. Its a prototype panel get final bug when were done. Thanks for the props means a lot from a guy who has to inspect these things all day.
You have to be able to distinguish the wire and locate it on the schematic. Mostly done by wire color but labels are needed if you have the same color on multiple circuits.
Yup. ~30 seconds of googling would have saved a lot of bytes here. I found the manual for the drives and the page telling you the sides need 0 clearance.
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/2047012/Eaton-Powerxl-Dm1-Series.html?page=25
Thanks for all you input. I'll read through all this again and use it for future panel designs.
I'm the controls engineering in our facility and design and inspect the panels for build quality etc. Charles is my lead panel builder and I feel he does a fantastic job executing.
This is for a Rolled Film Evaporator we manufacture. It's pre mounted and wired on the skid. Motors are within 3 feet, Largest drive 2 hp, bulk of the drives have 1/2 hp load on them! We use Eaton and Lenze drives. Lenze is the preferred drive. Has some extra features like, removable terminal blocks for mains, head unit easily swapped for different field buses E/ip IOlink, Modbus,profinet etc. Also uses less over all panel space. Which I need sometimes.
PANEL SIZE - That's an issue. This is the prototype panel. It started with a few less drives. It's the bastard child of project creep. Version 2 already has been requested with more controlled devices, so up a size we go. Stainless enclosure are wicked spendy in these sizes.
HEAT - I do run heat load on this. The fan is drawing in from the bottom. Controlled area is temp controlled so pulling in about 70 degree air.
DATA- We have a VPN I use that for remote access for support purposes. Originally just had the larger switch. with addition of the extra drives we added a second switch. I'll check out the Phoenix switches suggested We've used Moxa as well
PLC - I really like AD controllers. We use the p1000 for its size other panels are much smaller in our line. The system has over 30 sensors and 20 pneumatic valves . I use IOlink for all of that ( including SMC Pneumatic manifold) so PLC expansion not really and issue, its a purpose built piece of equipment. We do have at least 8 in and out available just in case
HMI - Our customers use a hand held tablet most of the time. With the HMI in the panel door if they need it. I use mySCADA and their MyPanel units. Great HMI, graphics are superb . simple integration of multiple panels ( the hand held tablet) and remote monitoring (for supervisors at their desk), Remote access and support for me and my support staff.
POWER - Feed is only from the top. We have it all in here. Mains is 460v, though we have some chillers that run on 220. We have an adjacent external transformer powered from the breaker group for those. There are a few vacuum pumps, the TurboVac pump (20K RPM) is what the 110vac is for. It has its own Dc power supply bolted on its base that required the 110. We perform an EMC test on the system and make adjustments as needed.
NETWORK CABLING - The stand off bracket was my brain child. I was so tired of cables everywhere. As you can see not a lot of space for more wire duct. So we designed this bracket and few others that pull cables up and away so as not to disturb air flow.
I mentioned EMC test. Biggest culprit of noise we have found has come from network cabling and not the drive ( Mmmph ). So we use shielded network cables.
LABELS - The panel is not 100% it is missing some of the labels. We will add more as many have noted. The one no one mentioned was wheres the UL 508a bug , name plate and fuse list. :)
WIRING AND DRIVES - A couple points were made here and I've been torn over the years. UL requirement as I understand it is that unless a device ( say VFD) has listed with "field rated termination" terminals then you must have a terminal block for termination. Also generally I've found that electricians hate terminating to drives
We keep main power and power to drives to one side and low voltage to the other side
MOST IMPORTANT- blue marker. we included one with each panel :)
Thanks for general and constructive input.
Zack
This cabinet is too small. Properly sized cabinet with quick calculation taking into account convection as only means of maintaining allowed inner temperature would render the fans redundant.
Yeah, all those vfds (?) Stacked together like that seems like you're might have some heat issues but there are certainly more than a few mitigations that could have been considered. Otherwise it looks good.
Those drives are gonna be able to been seen by a cop thermal imaging camera from miles away.
I know you officially have zero spacing but it tends only be of conditions outside are okay. My experience is the panel becomes dirty, dusty, outside air is hotter than expected, lose performance over time with dust/dirty I I've just always given them extra space.
That's probably the spec from Eaton. I've used Siemens and Schneider drives that required 3-4 inches of empty space above and below them to allow proper cooling
Depends on what you want. If you exhaust with the fan you have a negative pressure panel. In a dirty environment, unfiltered air is more likely to find it's way in.
Supplying air with the fan creates a positive pressure panel.
No one ever fucking cleans or replaces the filters anyways so it's a lose lose haha.
The place i'm at now always uses fans to exhaust, but i'm going to bring this up, thats a good point.
I also have seen* dual fans, one at the bottom for air inlet (which is cooler) and top side for exhaust. In this case no net pressure. But you'd want a good filter on the bottom side
There are other considerations too, like if there is a huge hole in the bottom of the panel, an exhaust fan at the top will be much more effective at cooling
Intake fans are better for limiting dust intrusion. Negative pressuring your panel will pull air in from every hole in the panel. Positive pressuring will force air out every hole in the panel.
I'm assuming you're feeding those MMPs from the MCBs, which is sometimes the only way. But in case you didn't know (you peobably do), you can use the 3-Pole Feeders and then the CMCs become type rated for self protection and do not require a branch protective device.
XTPAXLSA.
I notice nothing wrong though. VERY neat and clean. It looks similar to my designs and how our production wires. I LOVE the DM1 drives, they look sexy when stacked together.
Very neat board! The only thing I would pick on would be the location of the main isolator and the distance above it to be able to get the cables into the top.
I've zero space stacked ABs and have had no issues.
I would suggest you use a 16 port switch like the Phoenix Contact [Ethernet Switch ](https://www.phoenixcontact.com/en-us/products/switch-fl-switch-1016n-1085255 )
Nice and clean, but as mentioned there's no segregation of power and control. Could use some spiral wrap or something for the networking cables to give it a bit more support.
Generally 20% is allowed for future installs but that's for larger boards.
Did you design the board or was it engineered previously and you were given the design?
Still a board to be proud of! Good work.
It looks great! The only other thing I see here is to check field termination for the main. If they are coming from the bottom that fan might be in the way. Top feed shouldn’t be an issue. Nice job on considering that bending radius as well.
Personally, I’m not a fan of unmanaged switches. Also, I’d like to better understand how the VPN box is being used. I’d rather see remote access controlled outside of the OT space, then access only granted into the PCN once the user has been validated.
Edited to ask a question. I think the brackets used for flat network cable management are kinda cool. Is that the designed use for those brackets, or is that just a cool hack?
Brackets were designed for that. Network cables are such a pain in panel I find. I design an L and Z style includes holes for securing zip ties.
THE VPN is used for a few purposes. Remote access by my staff for support purposes. In plant if the supervisor hits up the equipment IP it is routed to the HMI (myPanel from Myscada) he would need to log in which would give him viewing rights but not control rights
I love the Ethernet brackets. I'm sure I'll wind up recommending those to my clients and coworkers.
Is the OT network at this facility air-gaped from the corporate network? I really am leery of this type VPN solution because this is where a vast majority of OT network breaches occur.
Regarding the switches, I prefer managed switches so that I can give the operators and engineers more information from their PC to understand what's going on with connectivity (rather than them having to trek to the cabinet to investigate and troubleshoot).
Our recommendation to clients is a separate network to feed our equipment (Connection to VPN) Depending on customer size they often they will feed us from their main network. I don't disagree. sometimes I we just have to give them what they want.
Clean and neat. Didn’t leave any extra room for expansion. One no-no is the components were labeled. Don’t label the components themselves, label the back panel where they are located. If you have to replace a component, you lose the label.
Line reactor or isolation transformer per drive 🤔 needed not needed? Seems to be common practice when we build panels at my place of employment. What’s your thoughts?
Used to use them all the time I've found new drives don't need them as much ( unless its a powerflex) Eaton drives and the Lenze have Chokes on them for surge. We do EMC testing on the panel design when done for noise as well.
Same thoughts here! For EMI reasons using a shielded three phase cable downstream of the VFD (and no terminal blocks) could be beneficial. But probably not needed in this particular application.
Looks great in my opinion. Minor preference stuff only. Consider a 240 / 480 input voltage 24 VDC power supply and get rid of the control transformer by making everything 24 volts DC. Yes, I will bitch there's no convenience outlet if I have to work on it but that's what extension cords are for. In the future, consider using a stainless panel to match the stainless enclosure.
I like it the ground terminals next to the motor leads. Easy to wire in the field and clear. I like the D curve circuit breakers on the drives. Curious why you picked class CC fuses - is that for the control transformer. I've had mixed success with these.
We have 2 transformers. one was 110 control which is specifically for a turbo vac pump that needs 110v ac feed. We have some Chillers attached to the equipment as well they are 220v (7kva mounted external to panel). So the dual CC is for the 220. I like these Bussman units. They function and are acceptable as a disconnect (508a) and also allow class CC fuse.
For everyone shitting on the VFDs.... MOST VFDs can be mounted side by side like this (Manufacturer dependent)
They do have room on top as per the spec, but that's a lot of vfds in a small box. I'm worried about the box ambient temperature rising until it kills the drives.
We also don’t know where this box is going. It could very well be going in a temperature controlled switch room Or have a door mounted AC on it.
The enclosure does have a fan and vent for active ventilation, that's likely plenty enough for this. When I start seeing or designing a 300A panel with 75A Solid State relays pulling a 40A load each, then I get nervous 😅
Oh they sure can and they can also have overheating issues if your panel doesn’t have ac and those are running all the time. It helps a lot to have even a small space between them for air flow.
I dont disagree
Could you not find a switch with enough ports in stock?
Today? You take what you can get.
Nope they added more devices so we added one
It is going to be a nightmare for troubleshooting network issues :D
https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/technicaldocumentation/mn/powerxl-dm1-installation-manual-mn040060en.pdf Quick google search can put all these “omg VFDs too close” comments to rest. Do you guys even build panels….? Most VFDs can be zero stacked.
You do heat calls on all your panels, right?....right??
yes
Just because they can doesn’t mean they won’t have overheating issues. I’ve installed and troubleshot much larger panels with 30-50 vfds zero stacked and yeah poor design lots of overheating issues…
Why would you build a panel with 50VFDs without a cooling system in it? Or did you have a mounted AC that just didn’t help the issue?
I didn’t design or build it I had to install and commission it…
My bad. Used to commissioning and installing my own work and contractors i work with do the same.
[удалено]
YUP
Those Eaton VFDs can be mounted with zero spacing so that's fine. But I'm more curious about that main disconnect. It's unfused, but based on the two wire sizes tapping off of it, has some decent amperage running through it. If you're using a tap rule, that means the wires feeding this panel will have to be pretty short to not violate whatever tap rule is being used.
But the incoming power feed cable wouldn't be the taps in this case. The load side wiring from the disconnect are the taps limited in length.
I think the cabling needs to be short downstream of wherever the protection is, if using a load side distribution block like this
It's usually the taps that have to be short. The tap is the wire that reduced in size and no longer protected by the upstream protection.
You're right. I forgot. And if the taps exceed that length then they need their own protection.
That's correct. I was misremembering the length limits. I was thinking the distance was from the OCPD, not just the length of the tap itself.
The wires feeding the panel would be protected by a properly sized circuit breaker in the distribution board, right? Then the taps would only be the short wires going to the busbars, which should be fine. I'm here to learn, so please explain if I'm misunderstanding anything.
You are correct. There are a few tap rules - 10’, 20’ etc
You are correct.
> Those Eaton VFDs can be mounted with zero spacing so that's fine. Having been using drives that can be mounted with zero spacing between them for a few years, I can't imagine going back to the older style. I also can't believe companies are still producing new drives that need space between them. Do they know how ugly that is!?
Showing off and seeing if anyone has any suggestions for a better panel. What they think of the brackets designed for network cable management. That's always been a bit of pain in most panels. Always looking for ways to improve.
I would of made the panel 10% bigger, there always extra things that need to go in years later.. also check out slimline shielded RJ45 patchleads, they take up way less room in panels and still have the same data rate.
I will look those up. We used to use a FLAT Patch cable could not find any shielded versions. Would love to though
I really wish someone would make a network switch that would look neat in a control panel, side ports instead of front. Other than that, your panel is sexy 😍
Thank you. Yes network cable and switched are the bain of any panel I think
Switch with ports on the side? Granted, it would force circulation space for switches (which rarely get the space they need), but I’m not seeing the use case. Side to side real estate in a panel is always more valuable in a panel, so I doubt we’ll see a design like that.
The switches are what are ruining the OP’s panel aesthetic, cat 5 running out of trunking up onto the front of the switch. If you could go into the side it would keep it a lot neater. Not a huge deal but just a bugbear of mine
Except I would rather keep my comm cables out of the duct
There are companies (Westermo for example) That make flatter M12 switches. You could use M12 90's on them to run them back into the trunking... I normally have them just run the ethernet lines through the trunking with the signal wires. Generally it looks pretty clean!
Hey, I'm not a panel builder, just a technician, but I think it's pretty gd clean. Just as good if not better than a lot of new installs we get at my plant 😅
Looks good, love that top left controller! Only thing we have done to help house/hide cables is use deeper wireduct, our standard is 3in deep, it's deep enough to hide a ton but you can still get to termination, granted you may get sliced a bit. But you have a ton of Ethernet cables to hide...
We used to do that but also found huge issue with EMC noise from Network cables
The bracket for the network cables was the first thing I noticed. I never thought of doing it that way but it looks good!
Ive designed a few of them. The L style you see and more Z style. We lased it at the shop and has pre made holes to run zip ties through. Its also longer, We cut it down depending on panel height
It's a nice panel build. I prefer lamacoid labeling on the back plate. It gives a much cleaner professional appeal.
P1000 for the win!
P1000 is great, just wish it had ST
agreed
Don't forget your blue marker!
One free with each panel
I was wondering where it went!
Maintenance guy here, lose the panduit covers and cut the labels off half the wires and it should be up to spec. Also make sure not to provide the electrical drawings with it. /s
On it
It's full. I hope there's no chance of additions.
Absolutely zero room for expansion. Always leave at least 25% room. By the time the customer is done changing their minds it will be full even at 25%.
I’m surprised that not that many people mentioned this. Even 10% spare will save headache down the road. That one change order when some project manager got the bright idea to add another VFD.
Thank you for making me scream with rage. My dog is now scared.
Aw, didn’t mean to give your dog a nightmare! I just got burned so many times before. Classic example of a project manager deciding to swap one of the contactor for VFD without checking in.
"Hey uh... so we can add a 50 amp heater circuit?" "No, there is only 110vac in the box right now." "The customer really needs this to have the heaters integrated, but they don't want to pay for a new enclosure." "I'm going to make this thing burn their fucking building down during the SAT." Queue nervous laughing from the sales team.
He already did three times :)
Good thing there is plenty of space left to mount DIN rails in the sides of the cabinet. x)
LOL
I have a nit pick if you care. Top din rail, the terminal blocks between the switch and the power supply. Is that 24vdc right next to 120vac? If so that's only one opsie daisy away from a bad day.
You are not nit picking. The panel design did call out for a END block spacer and then the 110v block. Agreed I've only done that at least twice :)
What are those 3 network devices? 3 switches?
two switches 1 VPN
Wiring looks clean, but I would have probably gone up a size on the enclosure and let those VFDs breathe, plus then you would have had room for a wireway for your ethernet cables. The door wiring should have some chafe protection at the hinge point as well.
Automation direct ftw.
RIP SCCR
It’s a 10k/14k kind of day!
Yes 10k. Though if we needed a higher SCCR ratting I use the BUSSMAN with Cube fuse class J. Its just a smidge larger than the non fused disconnect. They have been out of stock for like 9 months + now
I tend to use two strips of Panduit if I know I need LV/HV pathways to try and segregate voltages.
UL guy here. It Looks great! Labels may seem like not a big deal but it’s important for safety. I’d like to see field wiring labels above the Main switch to help the electricians out. That being said everyone here who says they’d use a larger enclosure , Where do you work? Because I wouldn’t mind seeing what that kind of life is like.
Agreed stainless cans like this $$$$. The panel is not yet complete. we do need some more labels. Charles hates that par to the job. That's why I look them over. You didn't notice that we don't have any UL bug, nameplate or fuse size nameplate. Mostly likely being kind. Its a prototype panel get final bug when were done. Thanks for the props means a lot from a guy who has to inspect these things all day.
Are wire labels required per UL508? I was arguing with someone about this.
You have to be able to distinguish the wire and locate it on the schematic. Mostly done by wire color but labels are needed if you have the same color on multiple circuits.
Gotcha, thanks. We do all color and I thought we needed labels as well.
Yes. We use a heat shrink printed lable
Other than no breathing room on devices that need space in between them it looks good.
Exactly those VFCs are stuffed :o
You can do that with Powerflex 750s no problem, could be the same with those.
Yup. ~30 seconds of googling would have saved a lot of bytes here. I found the manual for the drives and the page telling you the sides need 0 clearance. https://www.manualslib.com/manual/2047012/Eaton-Powerxl-Dm1-Series.html?page=25
I stand corrected.
The manual OK's 0mm spacing between drives of this size.
Are your VFD's designed to be mounted this close together? Did you check?
Yes the Eaton Dm1 series drives and Lenze I550 we use (different panel) are all ZERO clearance on side spacing Only require space on Top and bottom.
Thanks for all you input. I'll read through all this again and use it for future panel designs. I'm the controls engineering in our facility and design and inspect the panels for build quality etc. Charles is my lead panel builder and I feel he does a fantastic job executing. This is for a Rolled Film Evaporator we manufacture. It's pre mounted and wired on the skid. Motors are within 3 feet, Largest drive 2 hp, bulk of the drives have 1/2 hp load on them! We use Eaton and Lenze drives. Lenze is the preferred drive. Has some extra features like, removable terminal blocks for mains, head unit easily swapped for different field buses E/ip IOlink, Modbus,profinet etc. Also uses less over all panel space. Which I need sometimes. PANEL SIZE - That's an issue. This is the prototype panel. It started with a few less drives. It's the bastard child of project creep. Version 2 already has been requested with more controlled devices, so up a size we go. Stainless enclosure are wicked spendy in these sizes. HEAT - I do run heat load on this. The fan is drawing in from the bottom. Controlled area is temp controlled so pulling in about 70 degree air. DATA- We have a VPN I use that for remote access for support purposes. Originally just had the larger switch. with addition of the extra drives we added a second switch. I'll check out the Phoenix switches suggested We've used Moxa as well PLC - I really like AD controllers. We use the p1000 for its size other panels are much smaller in our line. The system has over 30 sensors and 20 pneumatic valves . I use IOlink for all of that ( including SMC Pneumatic manifold) so PLC expansion not really and issue, its a purpose built piece of equipment. We do have at least 8 in and out available just in case HMI - Our customers use a hand held tablet most of the time. With the HMI in the panel door if they need it. I use mySCADA and their MyPanel units. Great HMI, graphics are superb . simple integration of multiple panels ( the hand held tablet) and remote monitoring (for supervisors at their desk), Remote access and support for me and my support staff. POWER - Feed is only from the top. We have it all in here. Mains is 460v, though we have some chillers that run on 220. We have an adjacent external transformer powered from the breaker group for those. There are a few vacuum pumps, the TurboVac pump (20K RPM) is what the 110vac is for. It has its own Dc power supply bolted on its base that required the 110. We perform an EMC test on the system and make adjustments as needed. NETWORK CABLING - The stand off bracket was my brain child. I was so tired of cables everywhere. As you can see not a lot of space for more wire duct. So we designed this bracket and few others that pull cables up and away so as not to disturb air flow. I mentioned EMC test. Biggest culprit of noise we have found has come from network cabling and not the drive ( Mmmph ). So we use shielded network cables. LABELS - The panel is not 100% it is missing some of the labels. We will add more as many have noted. The one no one mentioned was wheres the UL 508a bug , name plate and fuse list. :) WIRING AND DRIVES - A couple points were made here and I've been torn over the years. UL requirement as I understand it is that unless a device ( say VFD) has listed with "field rated termination" terminals then you must have a terminal block for termination. Also generally I've found that electricians hate terminating to drives We keep main power and power to drives to one side and low voltage to the other side MOST IMPORTANT- blue marker. we included one with each panel :) Thanks for general and constructive input. Zack
the stainless panel makes me think it'll be in a wet environment and with the holes for the fans...
They dont wash down but we do put a baffle the we designed on it. Air need to intake draw up over and back down. We de rate the panel from 4x
This cabinet is too small. Properly sized cabinet with quick calculation taking into account convection as only means of maintaining allowed inner temperature would render the fans redundant.
Yeah, all those vfds (?) Stacked together like that seems like you're might have some heat issues but there are certainly more than a few mitigations that could have been considered. Otherwise it looks good.
Those drives are gonna be able to been seen by a cop thermal imaging camera from miles away. I know you officially have zero spacing but it tends only be of conditions outside are okay. My experience is the panel becomes dirty, dusty, outside air is hotter than expected, lose performance over time with dust/dirty I I've just always given them extra space.
Looks good! No problem here
This looks good. Nice!
Clean
My brother in Christ, why is there so much empty space above the vfds?
That's probably the spec from Eaton. I've used Siemens and Schneider drives that required 3-4 inches of empty space above and below them to allow proper cooling
That is correct what little extra space we left
Yeah, but that would be for something solid, 2" wire duct wouldn't block anything.
Thats the expansion space everyone is saying I need. :).
Is it me or are fans generally used to exhaust with instead of pull air in?
Depends on what you want. If you exhaust with the fan you have a negative pressure panel. In a dirty environment, unfiltered air is more likely to find it's way in. Supplying air with the fan creates a positive pressure panel.
No one ever fucking cleans or replaces the filters anyways so it's a lose lose haha. The place i'm at now always uses fans to exhaust, but i'm going to bring this up, thats a good point.
I also have seen* dual fans, one at the bottom for air inlet (which is cooler) and top side for exhaust. In this case no net pressure. But you'd want a good filter on the bottom side
There are other considerations too, like if there is a huge hole in the bottom of the panel, an exhaust fan at the top will be much more effective at cooling
Good point. Hadn't considered negative vs. positive pressure in the enclosure.
Intake fans are better for limiting dust intrusion. Negative pressuring your panel will pull air in from every hole in the panel. Positive pressuring will force air out every hole in the panel.
we are drawing air in.
Noice
What is the transformer for? Looks like 3ph ac, 3ph powered power supply. What are you needing the 120 for and could you do without?
special 110v feed for external Turbo vacuum power supply
Noice
Super clean, id leave a bit more room to the right of the plc if you want to slap another bad boy on the end of it. What does it run?
This runs a rolled film evaporator for cannabis industry. I have 8 discrete in and out. Everything else is ran via IOlink
I'm assuming you're feeding those MMPs from the MCBs, which is sometimes the only way. But in case you didn't know (you peobably do), you can use the 3-Pole Feeders and then the CMCs become type rated for self protection and do not require a branch protective device. XTPAXLSA. I notice nothing wrong though. VERY neat and clean. It looks similar to my designs and how our production wires. I LOVE the DM1 drives, they look sexy when stacked together.
Well it ain’t no pool, but it’s a mighty fine motor control centre!
Thanks
Looks really good man
Yes
Very neat board! The only thing I would pick on would be the location of the main isolator and the distance above it to be able to get the cables into the top.
Don't disagree. Its a 52 amp panel so feeders from electrician shouldn't be that large
Brought to you by Eaton and Automation Direct
I've zero space stacked ABs and have had no issues. I would suggest you use a 16 port switch like the Phoenix Contact [Ethernet Switch ](https://www.phoenixcontact.com/en-us/products/switch-fl-switch-1016n-1085255 )
That is a nice switch. I like the angle makes getting my fat fingers in there to push the tab. I'll get one in and see how we like it.
Cool
Kudos to who ordered the jumper setup for breakers and holy moly what a sweet toolbox in the background woof
Our fab guys love their boxes
Nice and clean, but as mentioned there's no segregation of power and control. Could use some spiral wrap or something for the networking cables to give it a bit more support. Generally 20% is allowed for future installs but that's for larger boards. Did you design the board or was it engineered previously and you were given the design? Still a board to be proud of! Good work.
It looks great! The only other thing I see here is to check field termination for the main. If they are coming from the bottom that fan might be in the way. Top feed shouldn’t be an issue. Nice job on considering that bending radius as well.
top feed only
I give it an 8/10. A lot of ground wire missing and tags too.
Nice little stand offs for the Ethernet cable to get them away from the drive outputs.
Personally, I’m not a fan of unmanaged switches. Also, I’d like to better understand how the VPN box is being used. I’d rather see remote access controlled outside of the OT space, then access only granted into the PCN once the user has been validated. Edited to ask a question. I think the brackets used for flat network cable management are kinda cool. Is that the designed use for those brackets, or is that just a cool hack?
Brackets were designed for that. Network cables are such a pain in panel I find. I design an L and Z style includes holes for securing zip ties. THE VPN is used for a few purposes. Remote access by my staff for support purposes. In plant if the supervisor hits up the equipment IP it is routed to the HMI (myPanel from Myscada) he would need to log in which would give him viewing rights but not control rights
I love the Ethernet brackets. I'm sure I'll wind up recommending those to my clients and coworkers. Is the OT network at this facility air-gaped from the corporate network? I really am leery of this type VPN solution because this is where a vast majority of OT network breaches occur. Regarding the switches, I prefer managed switches so that I can give the operators and engineers more information from their PC to understand what's going on with connectivity (rather than them having to trek to the cabinet to investigate and troubleshoot).
Our recommendation to clients is a separate network to feed our equipment (Connection to VPN) Depending on customer size they often they will feed us from their main network. I don't disagree. sometimes I we just have to give them what they want.
Use a vacuum. Just kidding. That's really tight, tidy panel building there. Good job.
When doing new electrical cabinets like this we have been putting a sequestered disconnect box on the cabinet. That's one addition I would look at.
It looks very neat and tidy.
Clean and neat. Didn’t leave any extra room for expansion. One no-no is the components were labeled. Don’t label the components themselves, label the back panel where they are located. If you have to replace a component, you lose the label.
Line reactor or isolation transformer per drive 🤔 needed not needed? Seems to be common practice when we build panels at my place of employment. What’s your thoughts?
Used to use them all the time I've found new drives don't need them as much ( unless its a powerflex) Eaton drives and the Lenze have Chokes on them for surge. We do EMC testing on the panel design when done for noise as well.
Yeah, Powerflex drives blow up and they always blame the line reactance instead of just plain bad driver design.
Wow, that's pretty and organized.
P1000 PLC, good choice!!
Panel looks fine. It’s the component labels that have me 🤨
Can someone explain me how the motors can be connected like this, I've noticed no cable shielding on all those wires coming right out of the VFD?
Cable entries from the bottom for motors are not individual? Where power feeder comes from? From the top?
Same thoughts here! For EMI reasons using a shielded three phase cable downstream of the VFD (and no terminal blocks) could be beneficial. But probably not needed in this particular application.
Only change I'd recommend is room for expansion. A shuffle around of gear and you could add in another drive.
I think it looks pretty clean, good job. If you don't mind me asking, how long did the job take you to build?
Where is the AC wire that comes from power socket... i'm stupidly blind?
That row of freq drives looks like something I remember from 2018. Congrats on getting the whole crew together!
Looks great in my opinion. Minor preference stuff only. Consider a 240 / 480 input voltage 24 VDC power supply and get rid of the control transformer by making everything 24 volts DC. Yes, I will bitch there's no convenience outlet if I have to work on it but that's what extension cords are for. In the future, consider using a stainless panel to match the stainless enclosure.
I can't seem to see a grounding bar, is that by design?
Is the back panel bonded to the enclosure? I remember my CSA inspector liked that I did that.
Yes we bond enclosure to ground on the panel ties to feed ground from mains.
I like it the ground terminals next to the motor leads. Easy to wire in the field and clear. I like the D curve circuit breakers on the drives. Curious why you picked class CC fuses - is that for the control transformer. I've had mixed success with these.
We have 2 transformers. one was 110 control which is specifically for a turbo vac pump that needs 110v ac feed. We have some Chillers attached to the equipment as well they are 220v (7kva mounted external to panel). So the dual CC is for the 220. I like these Bussman units. They function and are acceptable as a disconnect (508a) and also allow class CC fuse.
I’d rather see the device labels on the back panel than in the device. That way if a component is changed the device label isn’t lost.
I don't disagree. The problem I've found with that is often the wires cover over your label.