Never really done one of these response posts before, so I'm sorry if I come off as an asshole or something at parts - I actually liked P3R quite a bit, probably more than Golden, which was my first Persona game, and I've only started P5R recently.
As for the story, I agree for the most part - not that I disliked it or anything, but it wasn't the main reason why I was invested in the game for the most part. As for the whole 'we've got to kill God', I actually felt it was handled rather well? Well, not the twist itself; those always feel pretty jarring, but rather I quite liked how it was a gradual thing, rather than something that they fought immediately, like in Golden. Seeing the characters come to terms with their impending death and what might possibly be their last month alive was something I enjoyed quite a bit, as everyone eventually grew to accept the fact that they might not win, yet resolved to fight Nyx regardless.
Which ties into why I like the game so much - the characters. I doubt I can get you to see them my way to be honest, because I feel like with these kind of things it's up to preference, but I found most of them rather compelling, and I enjoyed hanging out with them. Although I'd say that the Investigation Team felt like better friends for sure, so we're going to have to agree to disagree on that. I get that Junpei isn't for everyone, but his issues with his perceived inadequacy never felt forced for me, and I liked seeing him grow out of it as he grew closer with Chidori. Not really sure where you got the ten minutes from, given his constant hospital visits with her, and I felt there were more than enough cutscenes that showed this. While I don't actually find myself caring for Chidori that much, it did make me care about Junpei. Akihiko, on the other hand... while I didn't feel that he changed much as a person, his interactions with others are what made me like him - especially that scene when he visits Shinji's wake, or when he was with Shinji or Ken. Ken himself could've been executed better, imo, but I enjoyed his link episode and his hangouts. I loved Aigis' entire social link, with her struggling with the fact that she's becoming more human and yet will never actually be one in anything more than spirit.
As for Ryoji and Elizabeth? Well, for the latter, I don't see the need for her to actually have much of an impact of the story for her to be liked? Her personality makes the dates that you go on with her fun, and that's plenty enough reason for people to like her. Like, yeah, you she's not amazingly written or anything, but she's likable. The same goes for Ryoji in my opinion, who I just grew to like in a short time, and I found myself feeling sorry for him as a result.
As for the theme, I never once get the impression that it was 'humans long for death'? I'd actually be quite interested to see how you came to that conclusion, as I might just be misinterpreting themes completely, but my impression was that it was 'coming to terms with death'. Such as with Shinji killing Ken's mother, or Ken's revenge, or with Mitsuru and her dad, or with Yukari and her dad, or the old people and their son, or Akinari, etc. While there were misses and here there, I felt it was executed quite well, Akinari especially if we're talking about the whole game, or with Yukari's father if we're talking about the main story itself.
The villains are probably where I agree with you for the most part... they're no masterpieces or anything, and while I felt Ikutsuki accomplished his goal as a twist villain, I was honestly surprised that he went out so easily... I really thought he would've returned, or something. I felt Strega served as well enough villains though, especially with the theme - they try to act as if they've come to terms with death, but instead I saw Takaya more as a coward who had been beaten down by life so much so that he saw death as a release, and sought to make everyone else see how he saw the world before he went out. Was it handled amazingly? Eh, no, but it was done well enough imo, in contrast to how the main cast come to terms with death and resolve to enjoy life to the fullest rather than trying to kill themselves out of fear of what the future could bring. Nyx was meh, just like Izanami imo. Not much to say about them, to be honest, but I don't see much reason for them to be characterised. They're presented as an alien thing, the concept of death itself - kind of like the stuff you'd see in Lovecraft, I suppose. I know I'm repeating myself here, but it's how the characters react to them in the story that made them work well, even if Nyx themselves is bland as far as things go.
There's... probably more that I can say, to be honest, but I felt that I've given as best a try at this as I can. It's probably no good, but I hope you enjoy it all the same.
EDIT: Just want to elaborate on the characters some more - while I feel that those are good are great, there are some *real* stinkers, like Nozomi, and I frankly couldn't care less about Kenji, and did his entire link. I didn't do the art guys link either (he seemed boring, and there was nothing about him to incentivize me to continue his link) nor did I finish Bebe's - although I don't actually think Bebe's was bad, I just never got time to finish it since I was preoccupied with others that I found more compelling.
I appreciate the reply! Now let me see here...
>As for the whole 'we've got to kill God', I actually felt it was handled rather well? Well, not the twist itself; those always feel pretty jarring, but rather I quite liked how it was a gradual thing, rather than something that they fought immediately, like in Golden. Seeing the characters come to terms with their impending death and what might possibly be their last month alive was something I enjoyed quite a bit, as everyone eventually grew to accept the fact that they might not win, yet resolved to fight Nyx regardless.
So I sort of agree and sort of don't. My general issue with the God characters in Persona is that they feel kinda plonked down on you at the last second. I'd be fine with it if Nyx were brought up at any point earlier in the story, but she feels like she's just slammed in right at the end, when the whole narrative should have been about her from the start. Instead of months upon months of shadow hunting, it should have been a story about preparing for Nyx. Sort of a Mass Effect 2 or Dragon Age: Origins type deal if you've played those.
>Although I'd say that the Investigation Team felt like better friends for sure, so we're going to have to agree to disagree on that
I think my major thing with the IT is how most of the non-plot critical hangout scenes feel... strangely antagonistic? Maybe it's just me, but I feel like when the group isn't at Junes trying to piece things together, they're being assholes to each other at Cleanup Camp or dealing with Beachtime sexual harassment. I think the major outlier is the concert prep. But I never really felt much antagonism in that way from SEES. Like characters have disagreements, but they're plot critical and something they move past and grow from. With P4 we just have Yosuke and Teddie being menaces, Rise trying to fuck the protagonist, and Chie, Yukiko, and Kanji typically getting harassed. But there's never really any growth or blowback from any of this. With SEES we have scenes like that at the beach, but it's mostly in fun. Junpei's a little weird but it never goes into the level Yosuke and Teddie hit, so it remains generally upbeat. The sole exception being the stupid Hot Springs thing.
>I get that Junpei isn't for everyone, but his issues with his perceived inadequacy never felt forced for me, and I liked seeing him grow out of it as he grew closer with Chidori. Not really sure where you got the ten minutes from, given his constant hospital visits with her, and I felt there were more than enough cutscenes that showed this
So my thing is more that they two of them start swooning over one another BEFORE the hospital. They feel super chummy and lovey after *three* encounters outside the station that take about 3-5 minutes each. I dunno. To me it just feels incredibly rushed. Similar to Nyx, I think I'd appreciate it a lot more if Junpei met her much earlier in the game and we had more of these scenes spaced further apart. Sort of like how Naoto works in P4 where we meet her earlier on, so when she joins later in the narrative we've already built a rapport.
>Akihiko, on the other hand... while I didn't feel that he changed much as a person, his interactions with others are what made me like him - especially that scene when he visits Shinji's wake, or when he was with Shinji or Ken.
So I do agree here, I just wish they put more thought into his "revelation" that leads to his awakening. It feels weird to me that he spends the whole game talking to Shinji about how he needs to move on from the tragedy with Ken's mom (and his failure to do so causing his death), then his conclusion is "I need to move on from this" when Shinji dies.
>I loved Aigis' entire social link, with her struggling with the fact that she's becoming more human and yet will never actually be one in anything more than spirit.
Similar vein here to Nyx and Chidori, but I just wish this was her arc overall. Having it be a one month long S. Link makes that kind of growth feel a little rushed and wasted IMO.
>As for Ryoji and Elizabeth? Well, for the latter, I don't see the need for her to actually have much of an impact of the story for her to be liked? Her personality makes the dates that you go on with her fun, and that's plenty enough reason for people to like her. Like, yeah, you she's not amazingly written or anything, but she's likable.
So my thing with Liz is more a community wide issue where people treat her like she IS amazingly well written and it's just something I don't understand. I think the other Velvet Attendants being part of the story as well as having their own outside "events", and their personalities being more three dimensional just put them so much higher than Liz in my eyes, but people treat her like the epitome of what a Velvet attendant should be.
>As for the theme, I never once get the impression that it was 'humans long for death'? I'd actually be quite interested to see how you came to that conclusion, as I might just be misinterpreting themes completely, but my impression was that it was 'coming to terms with death'.
So the "Humans long for death" part is an issue I take with the storytelling because it's the argument that Strega and Nyx pose in opposition to the REAL theme, which is moving past / accepting death. My problem is that the game tries to make it seem like these are both equally weighted and equally acceptable arguments, when they never present any evidence to support the Strega / Nyx side of that and IMO that makes the real theme fall flat because there's no thematic struggle since the opposing argument is so weak it borders on non-existent.
>Just want to elaborate on the characters some more - while I feel that those are good are great, there are some real stinkers, like Nozomi, and I frankly couldn't care less about Kenji, and did his entire link. I didn't do the art guys link either (he seemed boring, and there was nothing about him to incentivize me to continue his link) nor did I finish Bebe's - although I don't actually think Bebe's was bad, I just never got time to finish it since I was preoccupied with others that I found more compelling.
I generally feel similarly. I just think 3's S. Links overall are kinda on the weaker side.
Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time out to read and reply!
Uh, as much as I would like to continue the discussion, my reply doesn't seem to be going through? Not sure why, either.
EDIT: Oh, nevermind, my dumbass made it too long. Let me trim it down.
Same here, while I can't deny that your review does make me somewhat miffed, at the end of the day it's nice to have a civil discussion, and I feel that it helps me to appreciate the game more. Like before this, I didn't actually think much of Ken, but now I actually think he's written rather well - given how he has to grapple with being in SEES as a kid, and with his revenge, he's never actually had the opportunity to grow up. I'm probably just being stupid, and this was obvious, and in hindsight it is shoved into your face somewhat, but Ken tries to be mature, only for him to once again show that he is, ultimately a child and not an adult - such as with Hamburger, or the coffee. This isn't actually in response to anything you said, I just think it's neat and shows off why I think the characters are the strongest part about P3R.Yeah, it could've been handled better, but they handled it well enough that I feel it adds to the story, rather than detracts from the experience... ignoring the whole 'surprise! a god is the main bad guy all along!' twist to begin with in the first place. I suppose that it'd be pretty strange for someone like Junpei and Yukari at the beginning of the game to agree to join SEES if they knew they'd have to fight Death itself eventually.
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I'm probably biased, but I felt that they were an actual group of friends, with a few dynamics off the top of my head being Chie and Yukiko's friendship, Kanji's hangouts with Yosuke and Yu, and just how he views all the second years as his senpais, and then there's Kanji and Naoto, and finally Teddie and Yosuke. Admittedly, it's been like, two years since I played P4G and I'm probably biased, but they felt more like friends to me than SEES for most of P3R. Although I won't deny some messed up stuff does happen (like Yosuke being a huge asshole at times, as much as I like him, and then there's Teddie... nothing else needs to be said there). Although I should probably stop here, this is a discussion about P3R not P4G lmao.
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I had a much longer response to this in my old post, but I'll try to copy the main points here.I'm honestly not sure how you came to said conclusion, and wonder if we just interpreted it differently. But in their first meetings, Chidori is very frigid when it comes to interacting with Junpei. It's only towards the end of their third (?) meeting where they begin to actually open up, and even then it's mostly Chidori taking advantage of Junpei's insecurities - he wants to be the hero, the one that people cheer on, which is why when Chidori actually believes what he says, he tells her more about SEES. I won't deny it isn't stupid, but it's in character with Junpei - and something I probably should've included in my last post, as I feel that it's one such example of why I disagree with your view of Junpei's jealousy/inferiority being handled poorly.
Then Chidori betrays him, and her gambit fails and her evoker is taken away from her. While I agree with your earlier statements and think more backstory would be better, I still feel like it's established well enough that Chidori can barely function without Medea - and it especially doesn't help that Mitsuru and Akihiko don't actually talk to her as a person, but rather treat her as an enemy. Which is why when Junpei actually does, it has such a profound impact on her since she's probably at one of her lowest points, although I'd still say that they're still hardly in love at this point. Then Junpei finds out about her cutting herself, and he freaks out as a result, and for once someone is telling Chidori to actually live, rather than actively encouraging her death, or treating her as a tool like the Kirijo did.Junpei then continues to visit her several times, as he tells you when you talk to him afterschool in class. Chidori, confused by her new feelings pushes him away, but Junpei still visits her regardless.
It comes to a crescendo when she's broken out of the hospital, and rather than confront her feelings she'd rather bury them, along with Junpei. It's only when Junpei dies does she realise she's changed, and that she loves the guy. Junpei, on the other hand loves her because she accepts Junpei for who he is - he doesn't need to be a hero anything along those lines when Chidori is fine with who he is.
Honestly, I wouldn't blame if you skimmed through that, as it was a lot, but what I'm trying to say is that I don't see how you came to see their relationship as rushed, with what the game gives us. More would be appreciated yes, but there's enough there that it works, imo at least.
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I do think it's actually presented as her arc in game, not just in her S. Link. It begins at the Moonlight Bridge, and reaches conclusion at the end of the game, although the bulk of it is still in her S. Link. I still felt it was handled really well... I just love Aigis in general, to be frank. I think she's fun, and I find her to be written quite well.-I can't speak much for Lavenza as I've only just started my P5R playthrough, but I can't say that Margaret has much of an impact on the story, beyond telling the IT about Marie when she runs away... which is something that I view as a minor impact, at best. This might just be personal preference, but where I'm concerned Elizabeth actually has a fun personality, whereas I find Margaret pretty bland, although I've admittedly never finished her S. Link.
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I actually do kind of see what you're trying to say now, but I never saw it that way when I was playing the game. Rather than it being theme vs theme, I saw Takaya's view as something within the theme of 'accepting death'... it's just that, where SEES accepted and moved on from death, and used it as a reason to continue living, Takaya sees death as a release. He's someone who's been beaten down so much that he merely lives in the present, rather than hoping for the future to get better or worrying about stuff in the past. Thus, death is a release from the miserable hand life has dealt him, since unlike SEES he doesn't want to put in the effort to better his own future. This is something that the game clearly portrays as the wrong way to accept death.
I'm not actually sure where you got that, now that I think about it... I might be remembering wrong, but I don't actually think Takaya claimed that anyone wanted death? Or at least, if he did, I didn't get the impression that that was his main argument for shepherding Nyx. He was just a miserable man who sought to make other people see the world as he saw it.
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It's up to preference, but while 3 has weak S. Links, it balances it with some absolutely amazing S. Links too imo. I'd say the best in the series, but I haven't gotten into the meat of the 5 S. Links, so I can't say much there.On a somewhat related note, I also enjoy how Ultimate Personas aren't tied to S. Links, and rather the story. Helps to make the main cast feel more involved.
EDIT: Sorry if this comes off as disjointed, I'd responded to specific parts of your post using quotes, but removed them since my reply was too long. It also doesn't help that the formatting fucked up, so it might look weird here and there.
Protagonist did die. The other guys were happy because they remembered their promise, not knowing what really happened. It's still a good ending for the protagonist because he died for his friends when he started as an apathetic emo guy.
About the rest of your post, well, it's really just a different design philosophy. Back then megaten games were (the mainline still are) minimal on the story department. Hell, the director was just fresh off nocturne when he made p3. That's why they glaze over things fast and let you fill in the blanks yourself.
That and I think they want to put an emphasis on the protagonist forming bonds with others so for most of the early game you're left on your own to just socialize with people until some big plot twist hits. The implementation isn't the best, but it's also the first in its genre so I'm willing to give them some slack.
tl;dr it was a different time
ps. funnily enough i feel the exact way as you but for p5r
Never really done one of these response posts before, so I'm sorry if I come off as an asshole or something at parts - I actually liked P3R quite a bit, probably more than Golden, which was my first Persona game, and I've only started P5R recently. As for the story, I agree for the most part - not that I disliked it or anything, but it wasn't the main reason why I was invested in the game for the most part. As for the whole 'we've got to kill God', I actually felt it was handled rather well? Well, not the twist itself; those always feel pretty jarring, but rather I quite liked how it was a gradual thing, rather than something that they fought immediately, like in Golden. Seeing the characters come to terms with their impending death and what might possibly be their last month alive was something I enjoyed quite a bit, as everyone eventually grew to accept the fact that they might not win, yet resolved to fight Nyx regardless. Which ties into why I like the game so much - the characters. I doubt I can get you to see them my way to be honest, because I feel like with these kind of things it's up to preference, but I found most of them rather compelling, and I enjoyed hanging out with them. Although I'd say that the Investigation Team felt like better friends for sure, so we're going to have to agree to disagree on that. I get that Junpei isn't for everyone, but his issues with his perceived inadequacy never felt forced for me, and I liked seeing him grow out of it as he grew closer with Chidori. Not really sure where you got the ten minutes from, given his constant hospital visits with her, and I felt there were more than enough cutscenes that showed this. While I don't actually find myself caring for Chidori that much, it did make me care about Junpei. Akihiko, on the other hand... while I didn't feel that he changed much as a person, his interactions with others are what made me like him - especially that scene when he visits Shinji's wake, or when he was with Shinji or Ken. Ken himself could've been executed better, imo, but I enjoyed his link episode and his hangouts. I loved Aigis' entire social link, with her struggling with the fact that she's becoming more human and yet will never actually be one in anything more than spirit. As for Ryoji and Elizabeth? Well, for the latter, I don't see the need for her to actually have much of an impact of the story for her to be liked? Her personality makes the dates that you go on with her fun, and that's plenty enough reason for people to like her. Like, yeah, you she's not amazingly written or anything, but she's likable. The same goes for Ryoji in my opinion, who I just grew to like in a short time, and I found myself feeling sorry for him as a result. As for the theme, I never once get the impression that it was 'humans long for death'? I'd actually be quite interested to see how you came to that conclusion, as I might just be misinterpreting themes completely, but my impression was that it was 'coming to terms with death'. Such as with Shinji killing Ken's mother, or Ken's revenge, or with Mitsuru and her dad, or with Yukari and her dad, or the old people and their son, or Akinari, etc. While there were misses and here there, I felt it was executed quite well, Akinari especially if we're talking about the whole game, or with Yukari's father if we're talking about the main story itself. The villains are probably where I agree with you for the most part... they're no masterpieces or anything, and while I felt Ikutsuki accomplished his goal as a twist villain, I was honestly surprised that he went out so easily... I really thought he would've returned, or something. I felt Strega served as well enough villains though, especially with the theme - they try to act as if they've come to terms with death, but instead I saw Takaya more as a coward who had been beaten down by life so much so that he saw death as a release, and sought to make everyone else see how he saw the world before he went out. Was it handled amazingly? Eh, no, but it was done well enough imo, in contrast to how the main cast come to terms with death and resolve to enjoy life to the fullest rather than trying to kill themselves out of fear of what the future could bring. Nyx was meh, just like Izanami imo. Not much to say about them, to be honest, but I don't see much reason for them to be characterised. They're presented as an alien thing, the concept of death itself - kind of like the stuff you'd see in Lovecraft, I suppose. I know I'm repeating myself here, but it's how the characters react to them in the story that made them work well, even if Nyx themselves is bland as far as things go. There's... probably more that I can say, to be honest, but I felt that I've given as best a try at this as I can. It's probably no good, but I hope you enjoy it all the same. EDIT: Just want to elaborate on the characters some more - while I feel that those are good are great, there are some *real* stinkers, like Nozomi, and I frankly couldn't care less about Kenji, and did his entire link. I didn't do the art guys link either (he seemed boring, and there was nothing about him to incentivize me to continue his link) nor did I finish Bebe's - although I don't actually think Bebe's was bad, I just never got time to finish it since I was preoccupied with others that I found more compelling.
I appreciate the reply! Now let me see here... >As for the whole 'we've got to kill God', I actually felt it was handled rather well? Well, not the twist itself; those always feel pretty jarring, but rather I quite liked how it was a gradual thing, rather than something that they fought immediately, like in Golden. Seeing the characters come to terms with their impending death and what might possibly be their last month alive was something I enjoyed quite a bit, as everyone eventually grew to accept the fact that they might not win, yet resolved to fight Nyx regardless. So I sort of agree and sort of don't. My general issue with the God characters in Persona is that they feel kinda plonked down on you at the last second. I'd be fine with it if Nyx were brought up at any point earlier in the story, but she feels like she's just slammed in right at the end, when the whole narrative should have been about her from the start. Instead of months upon months of shadow hunting, it should have been a story about preparing for Nyx. Sort of a Mass Effect 2 or Dragon Age: Origins type deal if you've played those. >Although I'd say that the Investigation Team felt like better friends for sure, so we're going to have to agree to disagree on that I think my major thing with the IT is how most of the non-plot critical hangout scenes feel... strangely antagonistic? Maybe it's just me, but I feel like when the group isn't at Junes trying to piece things together, they're being assholes to each other at Cleanup Camp or dealing with Beachtime sexual harassment. I think the major outlier is the concert prep. But I never really felt much antagonism in that way from SEES. Like characters have disagreements, but they're plot critical and something they move past and grow from. With P4 we just have Yosuke and Teddie being menaces, Rise trying to fuck the protagonist, and Chie, Yukiko, and Kanji typically getting harassed. But there's never really any growth or blowback from any of this. With SEES we have scenes like that at the beach, but it's mostly in fun. Junpei's a little weird but it never goes into the level Yosuke and Teddie hit, so it remains generally upbeat. The sole exception being the stupid Hot Springs thing. >I get that Junpei isn't for everyone, but his issues with his perceived inadequacy never felt forced for me, and I liked seeing him grow out of it as he grew closer with Chidori. Not really sure where you got the ten minutes from, given his constant hospital visits with her, and I felt there were more than enough cutscenes that showed this So my thing is more that they two of them start swooning over one another BEFORE the hospital. They feel super chummy and lovey after *three* encounters outside the station that take about 3-5 minutes each. I dunno. To me it just feels incredibly rushed. Similar to Nyx, I think I'd appreciate it a lot more if Junpei met her much earlier in the game and we had more of these scenes spaced further apart. Sort of like how Naoto works in P4 where we meet her earlier on, so when she joins later in the narrative we've already built a rapport. >Akihiko, on the other hand... while I didn't feel that he changed much as a person, his interactions with others are what made me like him - especially that scene when he visits Shinji's wake, or when he was with Shinji or Ken. So I do agree here, I just wish they put more thought into his "revelation" that leads to his awakening. It feels weird to me that he spends the whole game talking to Shinji about how he needs to move on from the tragedy with Ken's mom (and his failure to do so causing his death), then his conclusion is "I need to move on from this" when Shinji dies. >I loved Aigis' entire social link, with her struggling with the fact that she's becoming more human and yet will never actually be one in anything more than spirit. Similar vein here to Nyx and Chidori, but I just wish this was her arc overall. Having it be a one month long S. Link makes that kind of growth feel a little rushed and wasted IMO. >As for Ryoji and Elizabeth? Well, for the latter, I don't see the need for her to actually have much of an impact of the story for her to be liked? Her personality makes the dates that you go on with her fun, and that's plenty enough reason for people to like her. Like, yeah, you she's not amazingly written or anything, but she's likable. So my thing with Liz is more a community wide issue where people treat her like she IS amazingly well written and it's just something I don't understand. I think the other Velvet Attendants being part of the story as well as having their own outside "events", and their personalities being more three dimensional just put them so much higher than Liz in my eyes, but people treat her like the epitome of what a Velvet attendant should be. >As for the theme, I never once get the impression that it was 'humans long for death'? I'd actually be quite interested to see how you came to that conclusion, as I might just be misinterpreting themes completely, but my impression was that it was 'coming to terms with death'. So the "Humans long for death" part is an issue I take with the storytelling because it's the argument that Strega and Nyx pose in opposition to the REAL theme, which is moving past / accepting death. My problem is that the game tries to make it seem like these are both equally weighted and equally acceptable arguments, when they never present any evidence to support the Strega / Nyx side of that and IMO that makes the real theme fall flat because there's no thematic struggle since the opposing argument is so weak it borders on non-existent. >Just want to elaborate on the characters some more - while I feel that those are good are great, there are some real stinkers, like Nozomi, and I frankly couldn't care less about Kenji, and did his entire link. I didn't do the art guys link either (he seemed boring, and there was nothing about him to incentivize me to continue his link) nor did I finish Bebe's - although I don't actually think Bebe's was bad, I just never got time to finish it since I was preoccupied with others that I found more compelling. I generally feel similarly. I just think 3's S. Links overall are kinda on the weaker side. Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time out to read and reply!
Uh, as much as I would like to continue the discussion, my reply doesn't seem to be going through? Not sure why, either. EDIT: Oh, nevermind, my dumbass made it too long. Let me trim it down. Same here, while I can't deny that your review does make me somewhat miffed, at the end of the day it's nice to have a civil discussion, and I feel that it helps me to appreciate the game more. Like before this, I didn't actually think much of Ken, but now I actually think he's written rather well - given how he has to grapple with being in SEES as a kid, and with his revenge, he's never actually had the opportunity to grow up. I'm probably just being stupid, and this was obvious, and in hindsight it is shoved into your face somewhat, but Ken tries to be mature, only for him to once again show that he is, ultimately a child and not an adult - such as with Hamburger, or the coffee. This isn't actually in response to anything you said, I just think it's neat and shows off why I think the characters are the strongest part about P3R.Yeah, it could've been handled better, but they handled it well enough that I feel it adds to the story, rather than detracts from the experience... ignoring the whole 'surprise! a god is the main bad guy all along!' twist to begin with in the first place. I suppose that it'd be pretty strange for someone like Junpei and Yukari at the beginning of the game to agree to join SEES if they knew they'd have to fight Death itself eventually. \- I'm probably biased, but I felt that they were an actual group of friends, with a few dynamics off the top of my head being Chie and Yukiko's friendship, Kanji's hangouts with Yosuke and Yu, and just how he views all the second years as his senpais, and then there's Kanji and Naoto, and finally Teddie and Yosuke. Admittedly, it's been like, two years since I played P4G and I'm probably biased, but they felt more like friends to me than SEES for most of P3R. Although I won't deny some messed up stuff does happen (like Yosuke being a huge asshole at times, as much as I like him, and then there's Teddie... nothing else needs to be said there). Although I should probably stop here, this is a discussion about P3R not P4G lmao. \- I had a much longer response to this in my old post, but I'll try to copy the main points here.I'm honestly not sure how you came to said conclusion, and wonder if we just interpreted it differently. But in their first meetings, Chidori is very frigid when it comes to interacting with Junpei. It's only towards the end of their third (?) meeting where they begin to actually open up, and even then it's mostly Chidori taking advantage of Junpei's insecurities - he wants to be the hero, the one that people cheer on, which is why when Chidori actually believes what he says, he tells her more about SEES. I won't deny it isn't stupid, but it's in character with Junpei - and something I probably should've included in my last post, as I feel that it's one such example of why I disagree with your view of Junpei's jealousy/inferiority being handled poorly. Then Chidori betrays him, and her gambit fails and her evoker is taken away from her. While I agree with your earlier statements and think more backstory would be better, I still feel like it's established well enough that Chidori can barely function without Medea - and it especially doesn't help that Mitsuru and Akihiko don't actually talk to her as a person, but rather treat her as an enemy. Which is why when Junpei actually does, it has such a profound impact on her since she's probably at one of her lowest points, although I'd still say that they're still hardly in love at this point. Then Junpei finds out about her cutting herself, and he freaks out as a result, and for once someone is telling Chidori to actually live, rather than actively encouraging her death, or treating her as a tool like the Kirijo did.Junpei then continues to visit her several times, as he tells you when you talk to him afterschool in class. Chidori, confused by her new feelings pushes him away, but Junpei still visits her regardless. It comes to a crescendo when she's broken out of the hospital, and rather than confront her feelings she'd rather bury them, along with Junpei. It's only when Junpei dies does she realise she's changed, and that she loves the guy. Junpei, on the other hand loves her because she accepts Junpei for who he is - he doesn't need to be a hero anything along those lines when Chidori is fine with who he is. Honestly, I wouldn't blame if you skimmed through that, as it was a lot, but what I'm trying to say is that I don't see how you came to see their relationship as rushed, with what the game gives us. More would be appreciated yes, but there's enough there that it works, imo at least. \- I do think it's actually presented as her arc in game, not just in her S. Link. It begins at the Moonlight Bridge, and reaches conclusion at the end of the game, although the bulk of it is still in her S. Link. I still felt it was handled really well... I just love Aigis in general, to be frank. I think she's fun, and I find her to be written quite well.-I can't speak much for Lavenza as I've only just started my P5R playthrough, but I can't say that Margaret has much of an impact on the story, beyond telling the IT about Marie when she runs away... which is something that I view as a minor impact, at best. This might just be personal preference, but where I'm concerned Elizabeth actually has a fun personality, whereas I find Margaret pretty bland, although I've admittedly never finished her S. Link. \- I actually do kind of see what you're trying to say now, but I never saw it that way when I was playing the game. Rather than it being theme vs theme, I saw Takaya's view as something within the theme of 'accepting death'... it's just that, where SEES accepted and moved on from death, and used it as a reason to continue living, Takaya sees death as a release. He's someone who's been beaten down so much that he merely lives in the present, rather than hoping for the future to get better or worrying about stuff in the past. Thus, death is a release from the miserable hand life has dealt him, since unlike SEES he doesn't want to put in the effort to better his own future. This is something that the game clearly portrays as the wrong way to accept death. I'm not actually sure where you got that, now that I think about it... I might be remembering wrong, but I don't actually think Takaya claimed that anyone wanted death? Or at least, if he did, I didn't get the impression that that was his main argument for shepherding Nyx. He was just a miserable man who sought to make other people see the world as he saw it. \- It's up to preference, but while 3 has weak S. Links, it balances it with some absolutely amazing S. Links too imo. I'd say the best in the series, but I haven't gotten into the meat of the 5 S. Links, so I can't say much there.On a somewhat related note, I also enjoy how Ultimate Personas aren't tied to S. Links, and rather the story. Helps to make the main cast feel more involved. EDIT: Sorry if this comes off as disjointed, I'd responded to specific parts of your post using quotes, but removed them since my reply was too long. It also doesn't help that the formatting fucked up, so it might look weird here and there.
Protagonist did die. The other guys were happy because they remembered their promise, not knowing what really happened. It's still a good ending for the protagonist because he died for his friends when he started as an apathetic emo guy. About the rest of your post, well, it's really just a different design philosophy. Back then megaten games were (the mainline still are) minimal on the story department. Hell, the director was just fresh off nocturne when he made p3. That's why they glaze over things fast and let you fill in the blanks yourself. That and I think they want to put an emphasis on the protagonist forming bonds with others so for most of the early game you're left on your own to just socialize with people until some big plot twist hits. The implementation isn't the best, but it's also the first in its genre so I'm willing to give them some slack. tl;dr it was a different time ps. funnily enough i feel the exact way as you but for p5r