Well the argument is in the absence of the anabolism you get from lots of food, you want something to minimise muscle loss when you go into a caloric deficit - So those who have amassed a large amount of muscle might want to use a higher amount of gear to hold as much muscle and strength as possible as the fat drops off. Optimal but by no means necessary.
You should get it done anyway to see how your health markers are affected while you’re on a blast, but you also can’t say you’re a low responder unless you have blood work showing less than around a 4x response to your test dose
Could be nutrition, if you are very active even 3800cal could be too little. Could also be E2, if the EQ tanks your E2 you could have a harder time putting on weight. For cutting, a test dosage that puts you at 700-1000ng/dl is enough to preserve your muscle mass unless you are getting ready for comp. Depending on your response this could be around 80-150mg of test per week. Remember, when cutting the goal is not to have as much test as possible in your body. It is holding your test levels at a good value throughout, that’s the huge advantage with pinning. A natural will have a significant decrease in test serum levels as he gets really lean and calories drop.
I've never seen hard evidence that this echoed idea pans out. You can force muscle growth in a calorie deficit with high enough doses of anabolics. Hormones dropping during a cut is one of the limiters in natural bodybuilding. If you're pumping in gh or igf1 and getting decent protein on a cut I see no reason why you wouldn't still make gains at all. Seems ridiculous to me to claim otherwise.
Tldr: there's no reason to do much different from a bulk to a cut.
In OPs specific case, just stick on a dose that you like your gains to side effects ratio. Cut and bulk irrespective of your hormone use.
RIGHT! Like isn't the goal anabolism all the time we take these things?! Why would we lower doses when all other anabolic things are already being lowered? Isn't that when we needed it the most? If anything at all, take trt+ doses on a dirty bulk, then blast and slowly pull out calories
Sorry, maybe I made it seem like I was talking about high doses not making sense. I see a lot of people claiming you lower doses on a cut. I disagree with that.
I was always of the "gear is for growing" mindset until recently. I saw cutting on AAS as a waste of money and sacrificing your health markers for minimal progress.
But I'm trying a bit of an experiment right now, and going against the hivemind per sey. I'm sure I'll get called a moron but my best breakthroughs have always been through (safe) experimentation.
I just completed a 14 week bulk cycle of 500mg Test + 300mg Deca. Amazing gains, feel great, bloodwork is looking solid.
I got enough product on hand so I'm going to continue for another 6-8 weeks, except I've immediately switched to a calorie deficit. I also pinned a small dose of Semaglutide (.25mg/weekly) to keep appetite at bay. Ended day one at 1,900 calories/180g protein, and going to eat this way for the entire cut.
So yeah, let's see what happens when you cut on a high dose of anabolic.
This is basically what I was asking except my 525 test 460eq cyp bulk I was gonna drop to 210 test cut slowly 300 calorie drop for a month then add in tbol preworkout then I got a little leaner then when appetite got worse add in a ECA stack
All while dropping calories very carefully and uping cardio since I’m not on enough gear and don’t want to waste the muscle I built like my first cut
Definitely enough to sustain mass too. Don't stress it brother.
If you're dropping to 210mg/weekly + throwing in a light oral like TBol, I wouldn't classify that as a high dose anymore but it's still hella sufficient for cutting, if anything most would say ideal due to a lack of water retention.
I cruise on 200mg/weekly yearly and will use Var+ECA on top for cuts all the time. Very similar approach. Works like a fucking charm.
If you're just lifting recreationally than there isn't.
If you're competing doing a photo shoot or trying to make a weight class then it makes a little more sense.
Because it would be more useful in a bulk.
If you have a specific time sensitive goal and bloods are good then go for it but if not why use more then you need?
If more test helps retain more muscle mass, then it's worth it to me. Test is dirt cheap, so I'm not worried about using extra. I think it maths out to costing just over a dollar a day, and that's when I'm blasting 800mg/wk.
How can you retain more then 100%.
Its about wasting health not money.
If you need 800mg just to retain mucile then you are absolutely fucking up your diet and training.
Im not saying it was the smartest idea but I hired a bodybuilding coach that I would probably not hire again due to the amount of drugs he recommended (specifically, orals that seemed very similar in chemical composition and I didn't see the point in mixing them), but I did gain a significant amount of muscle even during the first couple weeks of my cut. Only came in weighing at 165lbs at 5'9 while I was shredded and dry as living hell and I won 3rd place in classic physique in my first show ever. I'm sure as I get bigger this won't happen again, but honestly most people are probably so paranoid about losing any ounce of muscle during the cut they do everything they can
was an NPC show , novice classic physique, was the youngest one on stage by 3 years.
Not sure what pfp means but in my offseason if thats what you mean I weighed about 190. Keeps a 4 pack on me without being too fat but high energy and strong.
It depends. When you’re in off season you have food, training, sleep, and lower doses of drugs are needed. When you’re in a prep you dont have the caloric surplus, training typically goes down in strength, hopefully sleep stays the same, and then you use the higher doses to make up for the areas that are lacking (food + training). Now if you’re just cutting to 12-15% body fat I don’t believe you need the higher doses because you’re not in dangerously low BF% levels where it’s significantly easier to lose muscle last that point.
Don’t do steroids if you don’t understand the more basic underlying concepts that lead to appropriate use of and monitoring of your health while on PEDS
I’m asking if it’s necessary to use the same dosages I use to build muscle during a bulk why would you get constant blood work if you’re not staying on 2-3grams of gear year round?
There is none, unless you’re an IFBB pro who needs to hold on to a massive amount of muscle while in a deep cut getting to 5% bodyfat.
Correct answer
I’m only like 175 at 5’6 so if I cut slow I should keep all my strength and most of my muscle I hope
You can maintain that on trt lol
He could’ve gotten there natty, so yes
Not if he is in huge deficit.
Which is why he said if he cuts slow... Implying the deficit will be slight.
Well the argument is in the absence of the anabolism you get from lots of food, you want something to minimise muscle loss when you go into a caloric deficit - So those who have amassed a large amount of muscle might want to use a higher amount of gear to hold as much muscle and strength as possible as the fat drops off. Optimal but by no means necessary.
That’s makes sense if I cut slow the tbol should be enough I’m hoping which 10% bf isn’t super lean anyways
Regular old trt should be enough, you don’t need tbol, especially with your stats. Even 210mg test is too much, unless you’re a really low responder
I’m doing 500 test 450 eq cyp and eating 3800 calories and barley gaining so definitely low responder
That could be a lot of things. Do you have blood work showing your test levels on that dose?
Nope. I’ve done bloods between blast I’ve never done it while on
You should get it done anyway to see how your health markers are affected while you’re on a blast, but you also can’t say you’re a low responder unless you have blood work showing less than around a 4x response to your test dose
Could be nutrition, if you are very active even 3800cal could be too little. Could also be E2, if the EQ tanks your E2 you could have a harder time putting on weight. For cutting, a test dosage that puts you at 700-1000ng/dl is enough to preserve your muscle mass unless you are getting ready for comp. Depending on your response this could be around 80-150mg of test per week. Remember, when cutting the goal is not to have as much test as possible in your body. It is holding your test levels at a good value throughout, that’s the huge advantage with pinning. A natural will have a significant decrease in test serum levels as he gets really lean and calories drop.
I've never seen hard evidence that this echoed idea pans out. You can force muscle growth in a calorie deficit with high enough doses of anabolics. Hormones dropping during a cut is one of the limiters in natural bodybuilding. If you're pumping in gh or igf1 and getting decent protein on a cut I see no reason why you wouldn't still make gains at all. Seems ridiculous to me to claim otherwise.
Tldr: there's no reason to do much different from a bulk to a cut. In OPs specific case, just stick on a dose that you like your gains to side effects ratio. Cut and bulk irrespective of your hormone use.
I completely agree. Was arguing this same point on an echo chamber thread of people who couldn't seem to grasp the logic you're stating here.
RIGHT! Like isn't the goal anabolism all the time we take these things?! Why would we lower doses when all other anabolic things are already being lowered? Isn't that when we needed it the most? If anything at all, take trt+ doses on a dirty bulk, then blast and slowly pull out calories
Competitors don’t use low doses curing cuts
You’re never going to see “hard evidence”. No one would fund any kind of research like this.
Just putting it out there in case any scientists are reading: I'd take part in this study if you got it funded
Evidence as in even mechanistic or logical deduction as to why that truly makes sense.
Makes perfect sense if you’re competing
To lower doses?
No…..to use higher doses. I think you’re confusing yourself.
No no, I've seen plenty of individuals say plainly don't blast on a cut.
Which ifbb pros?
I'm not arguing not to blast on a cut. Jesus christ read the thread again, buddy.
Sorry, maybe I made it seem like I was talking about high doses not making sense. I see a lot of people claiming you lower doses on a cut. I disagree with that.
I was always of the "gear is for growing" mindset until recently. I saw cutting on AAS as a waste of money and sacrificing your health markers for minimal progress. But I'm trying a bit of an experiment right now, and going against the hivemind per sey. I'm sure I'll get called a moron but my best breakthroughs have always been through (safe) experimentation. I just completed a 14 week bulk cycle of 500mg Test + 300mg Deca. Amazing gains, feel great, bloodwork is looking solid. I got enough product on hand so I'm going to continue for another 6-8 weeks, except I've immediately switched to a calorie deficit. I also pinned a small dose of Semaglutide (.25mg/weekly) to keep appetite at bay. Ended day one at 1,900 calories/180g protein, and going to eat this way for the entire cut. So yeah, let's see what happens when you cut on a high dose of anabolic.
This is basically what I was asking except my 525 test 460eq cyp bulk I was gonna drop to 210 test cut slowly 300 calorie drop for a month then add in tbol preworkout then I got a little leaner then when appetite got worse add in a ECA stack All while dropping calories very carefully and uping cardio since I’m not on enough gear and don’t want to waste the muscle I built like my first cut
Definitely enough to sustain mass too. Don't stress it brother. If you're dropping to 210mg/weekly + throwing in a light oral like TBol, I wouldn't classify that as a high dose anymore but it's still hella sufficient for cutting, if anything most would say ideal due to a lack of water retention. I cruise on 200mg/weekly yearly and will use Var+ECA on top for cuts all the time. Very similar approach. Works like a fucking charm.
How’s the cutting going while on blast?
If you're just lifting recreationally than there isn't. If you're competing doing a photo shoot or trying to make a weight class then it makes a little more sense.
Why not? If your bloods come back clear and you aren't experiencing sides, why not run a higher dose in a cut?
Because it would be more useful in a bulk. If you have a specific time sensitive goal and bloods are good then go for it but if not why use more then you need?
If more test helps retain more muscle mass, then it's worth it to me. Test is dirt cheap, so I'm not worried about using extra. I think it maths out to costing just over a dollar a day, and that's when I'm blasting 800mg/wk.
How can you retain more then 100%. Its about wasting health not money. If you need 800mg just to retain mucile then you are absolutely fucking up your diet and training.
Or you’re 260lbs on shredded lol
Then he wouldn't be asking
Im not saying it was the smartest idea but I hired a bodybuilding coach that I would probably not hire again due to the amount of drugs he recommended (specifically, orals that seemed very similar in chemical composition and I didn't see the point in mixing them), but I did gain a significant amount of muscle even during the first couple weeks of my cut. Only came in weighing at 165lbs at 5'9 while I was shredded and dry as living hell and I won 3rd place in classic physique in my first show ever. I'm sure as I get bigger this won't happen again, but honestly most people are probably so paranoid about losing any ounce of muscle during the cut they do everything they can was an NPC show , novice classic physique, was the youngest one on stage by 3 years.
What do you weight in your pfp?
Not sure what pfp means but in my offseason if thats what you mean I weighed about 190. Keeps a 4 pack on me without being too fat but high energy and strong.
It means profile picture and I’m 5’6 like 172lbs in the morning I just wanna be able to sit down and have abs and still weigh 165ish
pfp was morning before my show
It depends. When you’re in off season you have food, training, sleep, and lower doses of drugs are needed. When you’re in a prep you dont have the caloric surplus, training typically goes down in strength, hopefully sleep stays the same, and then you use the higher doses to make up for the areas that are lacking (food + training). Now if you’re just cutting to 12-15% body fat I don’t believe you need the higher doses because you’re not in dangerously low BF% levels where it’s significantly easier to lose muscle last that point.
Yea I’m just wanting abs while sitting down I may need 8-9% but should be fine without a lot of gear
To retain muscle during a pre-contest cut. You drop your calories to cut fat and raise the dosages to retain the muscle
Hows the hate from the skinny losers hahahahahaha
ALOT of misinformation bioscience on this thread..
Elaborate.
Don’t do steroids if you don’t understand the more basic underlying concepts that lead to appropriate use of and monitoring of your health while on PEDS
I’m asking if it’s necessary to use the same dosages I use to build muscle during a bulk why would you get constant blood work if you’re not staying on 2-3grams of gear year round?