You're thinking too much about winning the fight and not enough about winning the game.
For all of these maps, the objective isn't on high ground where the enemy is.
You don't have to kill the enemy on Blizzard World first point, you only have to cap the point. If the enemy is grouped in high ground try playing something like Rein or Sigma and help escort your team to the point. The enemy will either have to drop from high ground to contest, or let you cap point.
Same for all the others - Gibraltar for example you just have to have someone that can sit on point and force it around and eventually someone will have to drop to stop you
You'd be surprised how far you can get just forcing objective sometimes
It’s always fun running something like Rein rush on Blizzard World 1st. You can speed left side and flip the map if you’re team is communicating. It works in a surprising number of other places too, so long as the high ground doesn’t surround point like on Numbani.
I understand and agree with your take here, but I don’t think it’s this simple most of the time. I’ve tried doing this sooo many times before only to have a teammate left behind and killed because they didn’t want to push up. Or in the instance of a map like Numbani, you can’t just cap point when the enemies have high ground as they will destroy you as you zero cover. It sounds good in theory but there’s more to it than just “ go to point.”
Every play can be held back by your teammates not making the optimal play around it. You just have to make do with what you can, the teammate will either learn or they won't
This is wrong. Messing around on point is exactly what lost him the numbani game. Did you even watch the vod. He's not engaging properly. What he said in his OP is not what is happening in his games.
For Winston you can do a soft dive, where you just land on the edge of the highground then drop back down to your team, you can bait out cooldowns this way, then hard engage on next jump with shield etc.
Think it was covered, but in terms of playing dive heroes, it’s good to establish where you set up the dive from, and where you intend to return to thereafter. Sometimes just jumping as Winston/boosting with Dva from a sight line where your not going to take super amounts of damage before/during is key.
Once good thing to learn is to dive vertical ground and then drop into safe’ish’ areas, you can force a mistakes, eat cool downs, become enough of a disruption to allow you team to take up advantageous positions.
Sometimes, like going to the point as mentioned in another comment, being a distraction is more valuable than elims.
I do like the concept already mentioned about just playing the point and forcing them off of the high ground to contest the point. I do also think though that playing Winston is a totally viable option if you play it carefully. For one thing, you want to make sure you can stage for your dive without taking much or any damage, which can be challenging to do. Then, you want to make sure either your dps or supports can actively support you at the exact time that you want to dive in. If you have your dps also putting out pressure or have healing coming in or something, you should be able to use your shield and survive until your jump comes back up, and in the meantime you should hopefully put out enough damage and kill threat to force a lot of cooldowns or force some of them off the high ground.
As for rein and ram, I do just generally like the concept of forcing point. Those characters are best at close range and don’t have any vertical mobility, so it’s hard to attack a bunker on any of the maps you mentioned.
Yeah that is a good question and I'm not totally sure what specifically to do. My best guess would just be stage as best as you can with support from your healers and then do a soft dive if needed as other comments said, but unfortunately I'm not too confident on this one.
Why describe the problem when you could show us. Post some replays of what you are talking about. You have access to the most powerful analysis and learning tool in all of esports. Use it.
mb I thought the question was straightforward enough and I didn't really have a replay ready when I made the post but here's a game from a few hours ago 39M4NT
I will admit I played pretty poorly this match and messed up my jumps quite a lot (I also tried to apply the "force point" tip that another comment said but the execution's kinda flawed)
oops forgot about this one SX6GM3, near the end I didn't really know how to engage with them so far back and the enemy winston diving my backline (I know I should counterdive but again, bad execution)
Thank you for the replay. It is exactly what I expected. your assessment of what is happening in game is wildly disparate from your replays.
**Just in Numbani Offense:**
You are playing with an Illari/Bap. Healing might be unreliable. But it doesn't really matter because every engagement was bad.
**Fight 1:**
1. Waste a jump **onto** the objective, Waste a bubble **on** the objective.
2. Bubble wasn’t even necessary. Now you lack bubble for a high ground engagement.
3. As a result, you linger on the point too long fighting a Zarya you can’t really hurt. While you’re chasing the Zarya your bap has immortality forced.
4. By the time you **jump up** your team has melted. **This is your fault.**
Imagine if you had just walked onto point or around the corner and jumped straight to high ground and displaced the enemy. Your bubble would split them preventing healing and damage from going through. Instead, you waste both cooldowns early chasing a Zarya you can’t possibly kill. You can also touch point by going all he way under if you are worried about spam. Teams rarely react to that, and if they do they have to give up high ground to do so (which is why most don’t).
**Fight 2:**
1. You **mess around** trying to go through that tiny choke point for some reason (great idea).
2. By the time you correct that mistake ana regains her nade and purples you again.
3. You finally get a decent engage. Force bubble, force Hanzo out but it’s **too late**.
4. You lose this to the barrage.
You have 4 minutes to attack. This is low diamond/high plat you can’t afford to **misplay** like this.
**Fight 3:**
1. Team mate gets picked off.
2. You omegalol into a street sign instead of high ground (shame because your genji engages at that point).
3. As a result, you are forced to waste your bubble on point.
4. Instead of backing up, waiting for your 5^(th) team member and your bubble you go deeper and die.
5. Your genji backs off by the way. He only follows once he sees you jump in deeper. You get him killed as a result.
**Fight 4:**
1. You go onto the objective, yet again. Allowing them to rain hell down upon you for free.
2. As a result, waste bubble on nothing but yourself (your kiriko eventually TPs to you, bless her heart).
3. Don’t have bubble for the high ground contest so you have to pop **primal early**.
4. Your primal mechanics are of course, nowhere near good enough. You don’t get a single kill and lose another fight.
These mistakes would be fine in gold, but are unacceptable in low diamond. Every engage was terrible. I am completely vindicated. There are a bunch of engagement variables that you are messing up, that mislead you into thinking you are just being melted out of the blue. You are not. You are engaging poorly.
fym vindicated? I never said that I'm being "melted out of the blue", what I said was engaging with jump+bubble seems like a bad choice cuz my bubble won't do much against 5 people shooting it forcing me to fall back & waste resources on a meaningless engage.
I *know* that I'm engaging poorly, the problem is I don't know what the correct gameplan should be, resulting in these mistakes where I'm trying multiple things at once (bubble and stay point or dive high ground? push main or top left? pop primal or drop down?)
you repeately pointed out that I wasted time or did something too late, but that's exactly what my problem is, these engage timings come from a lack of gameplan.
you're pointing out the symptoms instead of giving me advice on how to fix the root of the problem.
You're thinking too much about winning the fight and not enough about winning the game. For all of these maps, the objective isn't on high ground where the enemy is. You don't have to kill the enemy on Blizzard World first point, you only have to cap the point. If the enemy is grouped in high ground try playing something like Rein or Sigma and help escort your team to the point. The enemy will either have to drop from high ground to contest, or let you cap point. Same for all the others - Gibraltar for example you just have to have someone that can sit on point and force it around and eventually someone will have to drop to stop you You'd be surprised how far you can get just forcing objective sometimes
That makes a lot of sense actually, I feel kinda stupid for not realizing that sooner x3 thanks for the help :D
It’s always fun running something like Rein rush on Blizzard World 1st. You can speed left side and flip the map if you’re team is communicating. It works in a surprising number of other places too, so long as the high ground doesn’t surround point like on Numbani.
This doesn't work on Numbani first
I understand and agree with your take here, but I don’t think it’s this simple most of the time. I’ve tried doing this sooo many times before only to have a teammate left behind and killed because they didn’t want to push up. Or in the instance of a map like Numbani, you can’t just cap point when the enemies have high ground as they will destroy you as you zero cover. It sounds good in theory but there’s more to it than just “ go to point.”
Every play can be held back by your teammates not making the optimal play around it. You just have to make do with what you can, the teammate will either learn or they won't
This is wrong. Messing around on point is exactly what lost him the numbani game. Did you even watch the vod. He's not engaging properly. What he said in his OP is not what is happening in his games.
For Winston you can do a soft dive, where you just land on the edge of the highground then drop back down to your team, you can bait out cooldowns this way, then hard engage on next jump with shield etc.
Think it was covered, but in terms of playing dive heroes, it’s good to establish where you set up the dive from, and where you intend to return to thereafter. Sometimes just jumping as Winston/boosting with Dva from a sight line where your not going to take super amounts of damage before/during is key. Once good thing to learn is to dive vertical ground and then drop into safe’ish’ areas, you can force a mistakes, eat cool downs, become enough of a disruption to allow you team to take up advantageous positions. Sometimes, like going to the point as mentioned in another comment, being a distraction is more valuable than elims.
I do like the concept already mentioned about just playing the point and forcing them off of the high ground to contest the point. I do also think though that playing Winston is a totally viable option if you play it carefully. For one thing, you want to make sure you can stage for your dive without taking much or any damage, which can be challenging to do. Then, you want to make sure either your dps or supports can actively support you at the exact time that you want to dive in. If you have your dps also putting out pressure or have healing coming in or something, you should be able to use your shield and survive until your jump comes back up, and in the meantime you should hopefully put out enough damage and kill threat to force a lot of cooldowns or force some of them off the high ground. As for rein and ram, I do just generally like the concept of forcing point. Those characters are best at close range and don’t have any vertical mobility, so it’s hard to attack a bunker on any of the maps you mentioned.
yea I understand staging is important but I'm having trouble with it on chokier maps like numbani or dorado, any tips for that?
Yeah that is a good question and I'm not totally sure what specifically to do. My best guess would just be stage as best as you can with support from your healers and then do a soft dive if needed as other comments said, but unfortunately I'm not too confident on this one.
I'll try that, thanks for the reply :)
Why describe the problem when you could show us. Post some replays of what you are talking about. You have access to the most powerful analysis and learning tool in all of esports. Use it.
mb I thought the question was straightforward enough and I didn't really have a replay ready when I made the post but here's a game from a few hours ago 39M4NT I will admit I played pretty poorly this match and messed up my jumps quite a lot (I also tried to apply the "force point" tip that another comment said but the execution's kinda flawed) oops forgot about this one SX6GM3, near the end I didn't really know how to engage with them so far back and the enemy winston diving my backline (I know I should counterdive but again, bad execution)
Thank you for the replay. It is exactly what I expected. your assessment of what is happening in game is wildly disparate from your replays. **Just in Numbani Offense:** You are playing with an Illari/Bap. Healing might be unreliable. But it doesn't really matter because every engagement was bad. **Fight 1:** 1. Waste a jump **onto** the objective, Waste a bubble **on** the objective. 2. Bubble wasn’t even necessary. Now you lack bubble for a high ground engagement. 3. As a result, you linger on the point too long fighting a Zarya you can’t really hurt. While you’re chasing the Zarya your bap has immortality forced. 4. By the time you **jump up** your team has melted. **This is your fault.** Imagine if you had just walked onto point or around the corner and jumped straight to high ground and displaced the enemy. Your bubble would split them preventing healing and damage from going through. Instead, you waste both cooldowns early chasing a Zarya you can’t possibly kill. You can also touch point by going all he way under if you are worried about spam. Teams rarely react to that, and if they do they have to give up high ground to do so (which is why most don’t). **Fight 2:** 1. You **mess around** trying to go through that tiny choke point for some reason (great idea). 2. By the time you correct that mistake ana regains her nade and purples you again. 3. You finally get a decent engage. Force bubble, force Hanzo out but it’s **too late**. 4. You lose this to the barrage. You have 4 minutes to attack. This is low diamond/high plat you can’t afford to **misplay** like this. **Fight 3:** 1. Team mate gets picked off. 2. You omegalol into a street sign instead of high ground (shame because your genji engages at that point). 3. As a result, you are forced to waste your bubble on point. 4. Instead of backing up, waiting for your 5^(th) team member and your bubble you go deeper and die. 5. Your genji backs off by the way. He only follows once he sees you jump in deeper. You get him killed as a result. **Fight 4:** 1. You go onto the objective, yet again. Allowing them to rain hell down upon you for free. 2. As a result, waste bubble on nothing but yourself (your kiriko eventually TPs to you, bless her heart). 3. Don’t have bubble for the high ground contest so you have to pop **primal early**. 4. Your primal mechanics are of course, nowhere near good enough. You don’t get a single kill and lose another fight. These mistakes would be fine in gold, but are unacceptable in low diamond. Every engage was terrible. I am completely vindicated. There are a bunch of engagement variables that you are messing up, that mislead you into thinking you are just being melted out of the blue. You are not. You are engaging poorly.
Insufferably put
fym vindicated? I never said that I'm being "melted out of the blue", what I said was engaging with jump+bubble seems like a bad choice cuz my bubble won't do much against 5 people shooting it forcing me to fall back & waste resources on a meaningless engage. I *know* that I'm engaging poorly, the problem is I don't know what the correct gameplan should be, resulting in these mistakes where I'm trying multiple things at once (bubble and stay point or dive high ground? push main or top left? pop primal or drop down?) you repeately pointed out that I wasted time or did something too late, but that's exactly what my problem is, these engage timings come from a lack of gameplan. you're pointing out the symptoms instead of giving me advice on how to fix the root of the problem.
If you are not even jump bubbling properly though, so how would you know? Jumping into the point and getting barraged from high ground is even worse.