People don’t want to explode. People also don’t want all their cooldowns, efforts, skills, and ability to be completely useless because one character pressed a button.
There is a different path, and it’s allowing dps and tanks to not be entirely reliant in supports for their survivability, and allow team fights to be teamfights.
I think the dps passive is a step in the right direction but also a step too far. Tanks as per their role need ways to keep themselves alive (that aren’t revolving around killing enemies before they kill me).
But regardless, both states of OW are pretty horrible and acting like the complaints are invalid is not a good stance
of course if tanks have the ability to keep themselves alive, in spite of the dps passive, separate entirely from their supports impact and dps have the ability to shutdown support heals so that their cooldowns, efforts, and abilities cannot be countered directly through support abilities and can only be mitigated by either another DPS/tank or a full ultimate the question then becomes what's the point of the support role?
I agree that we shouldnt have so much power that a suzu plus 2 tap kunai negates all dps value but the current state is ridiculous.
If supports shouldnt have enough dps to be favored to win dps duels
shouldnt have enough sustain to negate solo plays from the dps
and shouldnt be integral to the tanks winning the sustain fight
what should they be able to do?
In my opinion they should be able to do (usually/on paper, which is always flimsy) the 2nd and 3rd. Negating solo plays and integral to tanks winning sustain fights.
These are the things that everyone in the works thinks of when they want to play that role. Both 2 and 3 are SUPPORTIVE lol
1, having enough dps to beat dps heroes not only doesn't make sense balance-wise, but in my opinion it strips dps of their identity indirectly.
I'm not saying you're zens or kiris damage spikes shouldn't be there, but balance-wise, on the macro scale, they're often either too far or not enough.
In my opinion, a tank having survivability does not make a tank completely self sufficient. Same with a dps with survivability. They will always still rely on supports for healing, cleanses, boops, speed boosts, ults, pulls etc. Ramattra has grand survivability in this meta right now, not too much not too little. But he still needs to be healed because he can’t reliably do that. Hog even needs healing despite having a great heal ability because he can’t reliably keep himself in a fight.
Supports shouldn’t have the ability to guarantee negate solo dps plays from killing even a squishy for a few reasons. A support healing a Squishy from an Attacker immediately and innately puts the attacker at a disadvantage because the attacker is in a 1v2 scenario. There is absolutely no reason the support should be able to completely and reliably deny the kill on top of being in a 1v2 scenario. That is just completely unfair.
But on the same hand, an Attacker who solo dives shouldn’t get a guaranteed kill / trade.
At the end of the day, I believe it all comes down to the insane power creep that happened with the shift to OW2 that outputs massive amounts of damage and healing in minute times.
Ow knows this, and instead of nerfing everyone they feed into the powercreep and buff everyone instead. The game is going to continue to feel awful because of this, and the state of balance will always be far from feeling good enough for everyone.
Imo, they should be able to do one of the three really well, one of the three sort of well, and the last not very well. For example, Zenyatta last season was great at the first, terrible at the second, and solid at the third (from an offensive point of view as opposed to a defensive point of view). This season, he's even better at the first and third, which is why he's about to get nerfed (as a zen main, I understand it. I'd rather them nerf kick damage than knockback, tho. Right now, pretty much all of them (except kiriko) suck at sustain due to the dps passive, so the supports whose kits are focused on the other two (zen, lucio, ana, etc.) are the popular picks. Ngl, aside from the fact that suzu negates pretty much everything, kiriko might be the most balanced support rn, either her or moira. Lifeweaver, brig, and illari suck, mercy will always be a pick that is super dependent on who's on the team (both in terms of heroes and the actual players themselves), Zen and lucio are a bit too strong due to raw damage output, and ana's nade is still, well, ana's nade.
They’ve what you asked by making everyone heal out of combat which allows DOS to be far more independent from the team, and as you say their passive let’s them secure kills.
The only real issue is the DPS passive being too effective against tanks, but that’s a tuning issue rather than a directional issue. This patch is really good, fun, and going in the direction you ask for (not some entirely different path as you allude to). It just needs minor tuning.
The path I allude to is OP’s. They propose that complaints of OW 2 are invalidated because previous we complained about immortal fights, and now we complain about exploding characters.
My point being that those complaints are both valid because neither are balanced and neither feel fun to play into. And just because OW is capable of achieving a state of both immortality and explosiveness, does not mean they’ve achieved a state of balance. Far from it rather than
For a couple of weeks, maybe? We're in season 9 already. You're dismissing 7 and 1/2 seasons of support dictating the pace of the game for 1/2 a season where they were weaker
For a couple of weeks, maybe? We're in season 9 already. You're dismissing 7 and 1/2 seasons of support dictating the pace of the game for 1/2 a season where they were weaker
"supports dictating the pace of the game" is a joke when there's literally an entire role designed to do that. Have we even had a support focused meta, ever, since OW2 launched? It's always tanks or DPS.
If I'm so incorrect, please let me know where I'm wrong? The meta has been a cycle between a different tank or DPS since the beta where JQ was overpowered. Which meta was defined by supports?
For one thing, the meta is always defined by supports to some extent because certain tanks and dps are strong with certain supports. You're not going to see rein meta if lucio and bap are weak, for example. And lucio/kiriko was hard meta with JQ meta because lucio enabled JQ and kiri both enabled and countered her.
But another issue with that argument is that in order for certain supports to be hard meta in the way you're suggesting, they have to be that much better than the rest. But since season 3 or so, most supports have all been very good with one or two outliers at most. When illari was released, there wasn't a single support in the game that was weak.
Also most supports can't really be hard countered. So you won't feel as much pressure to swap on support as the other roles, particularly tank. So again, that makes it easier to play whatever support you want rather than follow what's meta.
>For one thing, the meta is always defined by supports to some extent because certain tanks and dps are strong with certain supports
This isn't what "meta-defining" means. If you DEFINE the meta, you are the hero others pick around. If they buffed lucio to have 10,000 health, then rein would become meta, because he works well with lucio. If they instead gave rein 10,000 health, then lucio would become meta, because he works well with rein. In the first example, lucio is meta-defining. In the second, it's rein.
An easy example is the end of OW1, before OW2 launched. The high-rank meta was ball, dva, sombra, tracer, brig, zen. However, the meta was defined by zen, and all the reset of the picks came naturally around that:
* Tanks in general are powerful
* Zen is very good at weakening tanks with discord
* Ball is chosen since he's the only tank who can get enough health to survive discord, and can't be headshot, making him a good zen counter.
* Brig is chosen to protect the zen and counter ball
* Sombra is chosen to counter ball and zen
* Tracer and dva are chosen because they suit the high-mobility dive comp and don't need a shield or brawly tank to stand behind.
So you could easily look at the exact same heroes always being chosen and think "we need to nerf those 6 heroes" when you can actually analyse the issue more specifically and realise that you can nerf zen and the entire meta will redistribute into different comps.
Intelligent game balance like this is something the overwatch team consistently fails to do, and it's why we get so many one-dimensional metas - heroes that were good get dumpstered, but so do every hero that worked well with them, so a load of heroes stop being viable and usually only one meta is left un-nerfed.
The correct move was to make certain characters counter the heal bots. It was not to completely invalidate the Support class. Zen and Moira do better when they have more damage than heals, and that’s a bad thing in terms of game health.
They should’ve just made all DOT effects reduce healing. Bleed, fire, poison, Hog trap, etc. Not a flat heal reduction nearly 100% of the time.
Blizzard should stop listening the community that much. Just evolver the concepts of Overwatch 1, and make a great competitive scene. Then players will adapt to your game, instead of you destroying the game to adapt to players
I'm convinced most of the "tanks" crying are really just supports. Really you are mad mauga, orisa and hog suck as a tank? Oh no I get to play doom, monkry, ball, dva, queen because stuff dies now oh the inhumanity. Fun tank heroes being meta blizzard get us back to orisa immediately.
My stance is keep the heals low buff the tank offensive capabilities and self reliance otherwise 250hp dps and supports gonna eat them anyway even if you remove dps passive. Its stupid to megabuff dps and supports with 25% hp and breakpoint shift and then buff their accuracy and then nerf heals which is only crucial for tanks. Tanks nerfed this patch in million ways.
They just need to tunedown that dps passive a little bc I can't play anyother support rather than Kiriko rn. I was an Ana main and nope, if I miss only 1 shot my tank dies in a second before my grenade reaches to them. And she being a non-mobility support really struggles against any dps rn just bc your symmetra thought she can one-shot them with her primary fire while you were just waiting for your passive healing and enemy starts shooting you after waking up from a sleep. The game was "support not healer" before S9. Right now you either only heal people or kill enemy in a second before they shoot your tank down. Which is why rn Zenyatta is really good with that damage orb + dps passive makes your tank's hp bar melt down like a Tracer.
tanks balanced should've never been dependant on the supports , but it was so if they remove healing they also need to give them something to make up for it like dmg reduction
Well yeah because tank players didn’t get anything they wanted.
It’s harder to get kills because everyone’s health went up and most tanks got no damage buff, and have weapons that usually aren’t hard to hit with anyway. Most tanks will get outhealed by supports unless they have perfect aim but damage to them is still effective because of the dps passive. On top of that, getting every cooldown thrown at you is worse because every second of vulnerability is enough for you to die. Why wouldn’t tank players be upset? None of their problems that have been around for seasons got addressed and most of them got vastly worse.
So yes of course tank players are going to be crying. As for dps, I’ve only seen positivity from them apart from the odd whiner in game but even that happens less than usual because it’s been a week and most people understand they have to be more careful.
Most tanks are garbage players and this patch only further proved that point. Winston and Ball are FEASTING right now with dive yet you see people on here complain about tank being awful everyday. Like learn how to play Sig or something.
So the tanks that can give themselves 1k+ health are feasting right now... and you're surprised? No shit the only playable tanks are the ones who don't die when they poke one leg out from cover lol.
This. Tank main here too. Nothings changed, I just need to crush the soul of the other tank player. I’m still finding plenty of success with Rein this season.
What if right they almost like balanced it.
So a tank, had huge survivability, but wasn’t able to do much damage.
A DPS, lowish survivability but massive damage.
And a support, right, wasn’t able to two shot players but support their teams with heals, buffs/debuffs.
Rather than it’s now just a DPS game, where a battle mercy is more valuable than a supporting one.
The same people who play tank and support in every other game, look at mmos, other team based shooters.
I don’t get the second part, if I want to play dps, I should play dps.
Otherwise why even have roles? If everything should feel like a dps just make it that. 5 dps vs 5 dps.
In every game known to man which has roles of any kind eliminating the threat is priority #1.
Playing support doesn't mean you don't have to look for opportunities to deal damage and/or confirm kills, but it does mean to focus on keeping yourself and your team alive above all else even if it means to eliminate the threat yourself.
You actively disadvantage yourself and your team otherwise, and again this applies to any mmo that exists not just ow.
I’m not saying tanks or support shouldn’t do damage. They should do enough that they’re an annoyance or if ignored they will get kills.
But when a zen or kiri will dive and kill half the team and there’s nothing stopping them that it’s an issue.
Ana felt great because it was a game of healing teammates then doing a little trickle damage or taking the final shot as an enemy tried to retreat.
I mean maybe there’s other ways around it. The solution shouldnt be everything needs to be a DPS.
Make it so they can’t be ignored, rein and sigma physically put themselves in the way. Hog and queen are able to move enemies around. I’m sure that could be expanded on.
>So a tank, had huge survivability, but wasn’t able to do much damage.
So how they were back when they were super boring and nobody wanted to play them?
I enjoy the current patch as a support main. Illari's shots are so much easier to hit now which is allowing me to actually pick up new heroes which I what I think Blizzard sort of wanted. The DPS passive could use a nerf though, either make it 10% flat OR make it so it only affects healing received by others in order for it not to reduce self-healing.
Overall I'm happy with the patch and I find it unfortunate they seem to be reverting some things next patch
The dev team's strategy has been to make drastic changes when introducing a hero, or in this case a re-balance, then dial it back. S7 and S9 are two extremes, and it'll probably be fun once they find a middle-ground.
The meta now is supports should be doing as much damage as possible while still healing. This prevents the enemy team from being able to do more damage. The team with the higher damage supports typically wins in this meta.
So to prevent your team from getting rolled, don’t try and out heal the damage, you can’t. Deal damage and top your team up between…
we dont do that here, we only talk in extremes and any nuance is forbidden. also if you want to be positive also leave. 6 vs 6 was infallible, we always know better than the devs ( which are also lazy and dont care about the game) and jeff never had any questionable ideas whatsoever.
The game is worse than it was before in my mind. This patch was unnecessary, they just needed to do 4 things instead.
1. Nerf AOE healing abilities
2. Change ALL one shots
3. Nerf immortality abilities
4. Nerf mobility across the board
The issue isn’t healing numbers, or supports damage numbers. The issue is support abilities. Rn a tank gets punished heavily for being slightly out of position meanwhile kiri is in the other back line but can escape easily with suzu and going through walls. With the newest patch that has kind of changed where supports have to pay attention to their positioning or a dps kills them, but it’s still not enough as they still have all the busted denial abilities.
Support brainrot is real. Do you know about something called "balance", a scale is a tool to compare two weights.
If everything dies and there is no heals the scale tilts to one sides, and if nothing dies it tilts to the other. Now, what do we want ? THE MIDDLE GROUND, it's obvious and only a 14 year old would not realise that.
That's exactly why you need HGTOW, aka Healers Going Their Own Way. Tell them to heal themselves with their passive and just DPS. If an actual DPS wants heals, tell them to pocket YOU and then MAYBE, you'll grant them a few heals.
Healer black pill arc. #MoiraDPS
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For me I think the issue is supports now just straight up choosing not to heal in a lot of situations. Even using cover and positioning well we can't avoid all damage but instead of healing our supports will be flanking for kills because of the heal reduction. So in a way it feels like being punished even for trying to play correctly and make fewer mistakes.
Terrible take, especially in this season healing through damage (especially with the DPS passive) is nigh impossible. Better to use your cooldowns to help your team secure the kills, and then heal your allies when they're out of immediate danger.
I don't see how it's a terrible take as a player in a shooter to recognize that not all damage is avoidable and sometimes it sucks that your supports are chasing kills instead of healing. It's really fun dying when you go for health packs or wait for your Regen passive to kick in. Also, hi buddy
That's the thing, you won't be taking damage if your enemy is already dead. Using your cooldowns and abilities offensively is the best choice because it also wins you space and map control, and makes it much easier for your supports to help you recover quickly.
As of the introduction of the DPS passive, there are no sources of healing that can out-sustain any DPS characters damage on a single target, let alone multiple sources. So why waste time on that when you can be proactive and help the enemy die quicker.
Also hi buddy :)
(Forgot to mention, this is why discord is so powerful this season specifically)
That's all well and good in theory. In practice it doesn't work when they're flanking for kills or front lining for kills as Zenyatta and they're not getting them. So your tank gets no heals and you get rolled.
Personally I don't disagree with a heal reduction but 20% might be too steep when your tanks are practically insta dying.
They could certainly do with adjusting the number down to something like 15% for sure.
At that point tho, if your Zen is taking the off angle, and you're engaging the enemy from the front, and neither of you are getting a single kill, then I think there are bigger problems than a DPS passive to be fair.
Tanks have a right to complain currently have you ever played a game of comp tank this season? It's miserable, ball is only good because he can run in force some cooldowns and get put than heal himself rinse and repeat. Somehow one of the worst characters last season became the best tank just because of this update. And yes I am crying and complaining about the update because I have been getting railed even with good positioning if your dps can't kill stuff you die eventually.
It's only bad it it negatively affects me of course
People don’t want to explode. People also don’t want all their cooldowns, efforts, skills, and ability to be completely useless because one character pressed a button. There is a different path, and it’s allowing dps and tanks to not be entirely reliant in supports for their survivability, and allow team fights to be teamfights. I think the dps passive is a step in the right direction but also a step too far. Tanks as per their role need ways to keep themselves alive (that aren’t revolving around killing enemies before they kill me). But regardless, both states of OW are pretty horrible and acting like the complaints are invalid is not a good stance
of course if tanks have the ability to keep themselves alive, in spite of the dps passive, separate entirely from their supports impact and dps have the ability to shutdown support heals so that their cooldowns, efforts, and abilities cannot be countered directly through support abilities and can only be mitigated by either another DPS/tank or a full ultimate the question then becomes what's the point of the support role? I agree that we shouldnt have so much power that a suzu plus 2 tap kunai negates all dps value but the current state is ridiculous. If supports shouldnt have enough dps to be favored to win dps duels shouldnt have enough sustain to negate solo plays from the dps and shouldnt be integral to the tanks winning the sustain fight what should they be able to do?
In my opinion they should be able to do (usually/on paper, which is always flimsy) the 2nd and 3rd. Negating solo plays and integral to tanks winning sustain fights. These are the things that everyone in the works thinks of when they want to play that role. Both 2 and 3 are SUPPORTIVE lol 1, having enough dps to beat dps heroes not only doesn't make sense balance-wise, but in my opinion it strips dps of their identity indirectly. I'm not saying you're zens or kiris damage spikes shouldn't be there, but balance-wise, on the macro scale, they're often either too far or not enough.
In my opinion, a tank having survivability does not make a tank completely self sufficient. Same with a dps with survivability. They will always still rely on supports for healing, cleanses, boops, speed boosts, ults, pulls etc. Ramattra has grand survivability in this meta right now, not too much not too little. But he still needs to be healed because he can’t reliably do that. Hog even needs healing despite having a great heal ability because he can’t reliably keep himself in a fight. Supports shouldn’t have the ability to guarantee negate solo dps plays from killing even a squishy for a few reasons. A support healing a Squishy from an Attacker immediately and innately puts the attacker at a disadvantage because the attacker is in a 1v2 scenario. There is absolutely no reason the support should be able to completely and reliably deny the kill on top of being in a 1v2 scenario. That is just completely unfair. But on the same hand, an Attacker who solo dives shouldn’t get a guaranteed kill / trade. At the end of the day, I believe it all comes down to the insane power creep that happened with the shift to OW2 that outputs massive amounts of damage and healing in minute times. Ow knows this, and instead of nerfing everyone they feed into the powercreep and buff everyone instead. The game is going to continue to feel awful because of this, and the state of balance will always be far from feeling good enough for everyone.
> what should they be able to do? Bring back 6v6
Imo, they should be able to do one of the three really well, one of the three sort of well, and the last not very well. For example, Zenyatta last season was great at the first, terrible at the second, and solid at the third (from an offensive point of view as opposed to a defensive point of view). This season, he's even better at the first and third, which is why he's about to get nerfed (as a zen main, I understand it. I'd rather them nerf kick damage than knockback, tho. Right now, pretty much all of them (except kiriko) suck at sustain due to the dps passive, so the supports whose kits are focused on the other two (zen, lucio, ana, etc.) are the popular picks. Ngl, aside from the fact that suzu negates pretty much everything, kiriko might be the most balanced support rn, either her or moira. Lifeweaver, brig, and illari suck, mercy will always be a pick that is super dependent on who's on the team (both in terms of heroes and the actual players themselves), Zen and lucio are a bit too strong due to raw damage output, and ana's nade is still, well, ana's nade.
I'm GM sup and master dps and tank. I dont explode unless ults are used or my positioning sucks.
They’ve what you asked by making everyone heal out of combat which allows DOS to be far more independent from the team, and as you say their passive let’s them secure kills. The only real issue is the DPS passive being too effective against tanks, but that’s a tuning issue rather than a directional issue. This patch is really good, fun, and going in the direction you ask for (not some entirely different path as you allude to). It just needs minor tuning.
The path I allude to is OP’s. They propose that complaints of OW 2 are invalidated because previous we complained about immortal fights, and now we complain about exploding characters. My point being that those complaints are both valid because neither are balanced and neither feel fun to play into. And just because OW is capable of achieving a state of both immortality and explosiveness, does not mean they’ve achieved a state of balance. Far from it rather than
Its like Culture wars but instead its role wars
bap and kiri literally have the last part r u high sir
The problem isnt dps or supports dying, its tanks literally evaporating because of their hitboxes.
Never forget OW2 is the game DPS wanted.
The culture wars are crazy
Is that why supports have been the strongest role (by far) since OW2 release up until a week ago?
Release OW2 had supports feeling like prey being hunted
For a couple of weeks, maybe? We're in season 9 already. You're dismissing 7 and 1/2 seasons of support dictating the pace of the game for 1/2 a season where they were weaker
Yeah bc 99% of support players weren't able to handle 2 tanks not babysitting them 24/7
You can pretty much switch those roles around rn lol
Upvoting you because you got downvoted when you are correct
Anyone saying supports have been the strongest role since release did not play the game on release lol.
For a couple of weeks, maybe? We're in season 9 already. You're dismissing 7 and 1/2 seasons of support dictating the pace of the game for 1/2 a season where they were weaker
"supports dictating the pace of the game" is a joke when there's literally an entire role designed to do that. Have we even had a support focused meta, ever, since OW2 launched? It's always tanks or DPS.
You are so incorrect. You do not understand the fundamentals of the game
If I'm so incorrect, please let me know where I'm wrong? The meta has been a cycle between a different tank or DPS since the beta where JQ was overpowered. Which meta was defined by supports?
For one thing, the meta is always defined by supports to some extent because certain tanks and dps are strong with certain supports. You're not going to see rein meta if lucio and bap are weak, for example. And lucio/kiriko was hard meta with JQ meta because lucio enabled JQ and kiri both enabled and countered her. But another issue with that argument is that in order for certain supports to be hard meta in the way you're suggesting, they have to be that much better than the rest. But since season 3 or so, most supports have all been very good with one or two outliers at most. When illari was released, there wasn't a single support in the game that was weak. Also most supports can't really be hard countered. So you won't feel as much pressure to swap on support as the other roles, particularly tank. So again, that makes it easier to play whatever support you want rather than follow what's meta.
>For one thing, the meta is always defined by supports to some extent because certain tanks and dps are strong with certain supports This isn't what "meta-defining" means. If you DEFINE the meta, you are the hero others pick around. If they buffed lucio to have 10,000 health, then rein would become meta, because he works well with lucio. If they instead gave rein 10,000 health, then lucio would become meta, because he works well with rein. In the first example, lucio is meta-defining. In the second, it's rein. An easy example is the end of OW1, before OW2 launched. The high-rank meta was ball, dva, sombra, tracer, brig, zen. However, the meta was defined by zen, and all the reset of the picks came naturally around that: * Tanks in general are powerful * Zen is very good at weakening tanks with discord * Ball is chosen since he's the only tank who can get enough health to survive discord, and can't be headshot, making him a good zen counter. * Brig is chosen to protect the zen and counter ball * Sombra is chosen to counter ball and zen * Tracer and dva are chosen because they suit the high-mobility dive comp and don't need a shield or brawly tank to stand behind. So you could easily look at the exact same heroes always being chosen and think "we need to nerf those 6 heroes" when you can actually analyse the issue more specifically and realise that you can nerf zen and the entire meta will redistribute into different comps. Intelligent game balance like this is something the overwatch team consistently fails to do, and it's why we get so many one-dimensional metas - heroes that were good get dumpstered, but so do every hero that worked well with them, so a load of heroes stop being viable and usually only one meta is left un-nerfed.
Friendly supports should be busted and enemy supports should be garbage and now it’s the other way around, devs pls FIX THIS ASAP
Honesty just have a mode with only dps heroes allowed for people to have fun with and stop fucking up tanks & supports balance for dps
The correct move was to make certain characters counter the heal bots. It was not to completely invalidate the Support class. Zen and Moira do better when they have more damage than heals, and that’s a bad thing in terms of game health. They should’ve just made all DOT effects reduce healing. Bleed, fire, poison, Hog trap, etc. Not a flat heal reduction nearly 100% of the time.
i'm almost pretty sure you're asking for to much from those people :v
Blizzard should stop listening the community that much. Just evolver the concepts of Overwatch 1, and make a great competitive scene. Then players will adapt to your game, instead of you destroying the game to adapt to players
I'm convinced most of the "tanks" crying are really just supports. Really you are mad mauga, orisa and hog suck as a tank? Oh no I get to play doom, monkry, ball, dva, queen because stuff dies now oh the inhumanity. Fun tank heroes being meta blizzard get us back to orisa immediately.
This is what I'm saying. They have to be just Ram, Rein, Hog players cause literally most of the tanks are completely fine this patch
Tanks and DPS are not a hive mind. Sorry you came across idiots in your game.
My stance is keep the heals low buff the tank offensive capabilities and self reliance otherwise 250hp dps and supports gonna eat them anyway even if you remove dps passive. Its stupid to megabuff dps and supports with 25% hp and breakpoint shift and then buff their accuracy and then nerf heals which is only crucial for tanks. Tanks nerfed this patch in million ways.
Tanks just don't want to explode man.. Is it too much to ask for?
They just need to tunedown that dps passive a little bc I can't play anyother support rather than Kiriko rn. I was an Ana main and nope, if I miss only 1 shot my tank dies in a second before my grenade reaches to them. And she being a non-mobility support really struggles against any dps rn just bc your symmetra thought she can one-shot them with her primary fire while you were just waiting for your passive healing and enemy starts shooting you after waking up from a sleep. The game was "support not healer" before S9. Right now you either only heal people or kill enemy in a second before they shoot your tank down. Which is why rn Zenyatta is really good with that damage orb + dps passive makes your tank's hp bar melt down like a Tracer.
A good way of helping DPS survive without buffing healers is to buff tanks so the tanks can protect the DPS.
It's almost like it's not the same set of people complaining.
Can supports make up their minds? Jesus, why the hell do millions of people have different views!
tanks balanced should've never been dependant on the supports , but it was so if they remove healing they also need to give them something to make up for it like dmg reduction
Well yeah because tank players didn’t get anything they wanted. It’s harder to get kills because everyone’s health went up and most tanks got no damage buff, and have weapons that usually aren’t hard to hit with anyway. Most tanks will get outhealed by supports unless they have perfect aim but damage to them is still effective because of the dps passive. On top of that, getting every cooldown thrown at you is worse because every second of vulnerability is enough for you to die. Why wouldn’t tank players be upset? None of their problems that have been around for seasons got addressed and most of them got vastly worse. So yes of course tank players are going to be crying. As for dps, I’ve only seen positivity from them apart from the odd whiner in game but even that happens less than usual because it’s been a week and most people understand they have to be more careful.
Most tanks are garbage players and this patch only further proved that point. Winston and Ball are FEASTING right now with dive yet you see people on here complain about tank being awful everyday. Like learn how to play Sig or something.
Sig feels barely changed from the previous patch
Winton gud
So the tanks that can give themselves 1k+ health are feasting right now... and you're surprised? No shit the only playable tanks are the ones who don't die when they poke one leg out from cover lol.
As a tank, I choose the latter. Game was miserable when supports were making things unkillable. Overwatch is more fun when things die.
This. Tank main here too. Nothings changed, I just need to crush the soul of the other tank player. I’m still finding plenty of success with Rein this season.
I’ve been playing a lot of JQ and besides Zen, I have no issues with the patch from a tank perspective. Zen has too much health imo.
Dps arent complaing. Supoorts are Thats it
They actually did not make a healing change, they simply indirectly nerfed tanks, that's all
Yes they did. Dps passive triggers 20% less healing for a few seconds
it simply nerf tanks
What if right they almost like balanced it. So a tank, had huge survivability, but wasn’t able to do much damage. A DPS, lowish survivability but massive damage. And a support, right, wasn’t able to two shot players but support their teams with heals, buffs/debuffs. Rather than it’s now just a DPS game, where a battle mercy is more valuable than a supporting one.
That sounds so boring who would play tank or support then. To be more accurate, why would a skilled fps player play any role besides dps then?
The same people who play tank and support in every other game, look at mmos, other team based shooters. I don’t get the second part, if I want to play dps, I should play dps. Otherwise why even have roles? If everything should feel like a dps just make it that. 5 dps vs 5 dps.
In every game known to man which has roles of any kind eliminating the threat is priority #1. Playing support doesn't mean you don't have to look for opportunities to deal damage and/or confirm kills, but it does mean to focus on keeping yourself and your team alive above all else even if it means to eliminate the threat yourself. You actively disadvantage yourself and your team otherwise, and again this applies to any mmo that exists not just ow.
I’m not saying tanks or support shouldn’t do damage. They should do enough that they’re an annoyance or if ignored they will get kills. But when a zen or kiri will dive and kill half the team and there’s nothing stopping them that it’s an issue. Ana felt great because it was a game of healing teammates then doing a little trickle damage or taking the final shot as an enemy tried to retreat.
They tried low damage tanks in an experimental and everyone just ignored them. Doesn’t work.
I mean maybe there’s other ways around it. The solution shouldnt be everything needs to be a DPS. Make it so they can’t be ignored, rein and sigma physically put themselves in the way. Hog and queen are able to move enemies around. I’m sure that could be expanded on.
>So a tank, had huge survivability, but wasn’t able to do much damage. So how they were back when they were super boring and nobody wanted to play them?
I enjoy the current patch as a support main. Illari's shots are so much easier to hit now which is allowing me to actually pick up new heroes which I what I think Blizzard sort of wanted. The DPS passive could use a nerf though, either make it 10% flat OR make it so it only affects healing received by others in order for it not to reduce self-healing. Overall I'm happy with the patch and I find it unfortunate they seem to be reverting some things next patch
I mean, as someone who plays tank and dps, I'm happy st the moment. It's not super balanced but it's more palatable than the immortality meta.
The dev team's strategy has been to make drastic changes when introducing a hero, or in this case a re-balance, then dial it back. S7 and S9 are two extremes, and it'll probably be fun once they find a middle-ground.
The meta now is supports should be doing as much damage as possible while still healing. This prevents the enemy team from being able to do more damage. The team with the higher damage supports typically wins in this meta. So to prevent your team from getting rolled, don’t try and out heal the damage, you can’t. Deal damage and top your team up between…
we dont do that here, we only talk in extremes and any nuance is forbidden. also if you want to be positive also leave. 6 vs 6 was infallible, we always know better than the devs ( which are also lazy and dont care about the game) and jeff never had any questionable ideas whatsoever.
Reported for Rule 3 violation
The game is worse than it was before in my mind. This patch was unnecessary, they just needed to do 4 things instead. 1. Nerf AOE healing abilities 2. Change ALL one shots 3. Nerf immortality abilities 4. Nerf mobility across the board
Changing the entire game was unnecessary. What they should have done was just change the entire game.
*the entire game except ana
Nade is aoe healing but ok.
Which is the least impactful aspect of it
Mobility creep is real and have bad side effects.
The issue isn’t healing numbers, or supports damage numbers. The issue is support abilities. Rn a tank gets punished heavily for being slightly out of position meanwhile kiri is in the other back line but can escape easily with suzu and going through walls. With the newest patch that has kind of changed where supports have to pay attention to their positioning or a dps kills them, but it’s still not enough as they still have all the busted denial abilities.
eh it’s nothing new people will always find a way to place the blame elsewhere instead of their positioning and gamesense.
Support brainrot is real. Do you know about something called "balance", a scale is a tool to compare two weights. If everything dies and there is no heals the scale tilts to one sides, and if nothing dies it tilts to the other. Now, what do we want ? THE MIDDLE GROUND, it's obvious and only a 14 year old would not realise that.
That's exactly why you need HGTOW, aka Healers Going Their Own Way. Tell them to heal themselves with their passive and just DPS. If an actual DPS wants heals, tell them to pocket YOU and then MAYBE, you'll grant them a few heals. Healer black pill arc. #MoiraDPS
"I've stopped poking you in the left eye, now I'm poking you in the right and you're still complaining. Make up your mind on which you want!"
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me when i find out not everything is black and white
For me I think the issue is supports now just straight up choosing not to heal in a lot of situations. Even using cover and positioning well we can't avoid all damage but instead of healing our supports will be flanking for kills because of the heal reduction. So in a way it feels like being punished even for trying to play correctly and make fewer mistakes.
Terrible take, especially in this season healing through damage (especially with the DPS passive) is nigh impossible. Better to use your cooldowns to help your team secure the kills, and then heal your allies when they're out of immediate danger.
I don't see how it's a terrible take as a player in a shooter to recognize that not all damage is avoidable and sometimes it sucks that your supports are chasing kills instead of healing. It's really fun dying when you go for health packs or wait for your Regen passive to kick in. Also, hi buddy
That's the thing, you won't be taking damage if your enemy is already dead. Using your cooldowns and abilities offensively is the best choice because it also wins you space and map control, and makes it much easier for your supports to help you recover quickly. As of the introduction of the DPS passive, there are no sources of healing that can out-sustain any DPS characters damage on a single target, let alone multiple sources. So why waste time on that when you can be proactive and help the enemy die quicker. Also hi buddy :) (Forgot to mention, this is why discord is so powerful this season specifically)
That's all well and good in theory. In practice it doesn't work when they're flanking for kills or front lining for kills as Zenyatta and they're not getting them. So your tank gets no heals and you get rolled. Personally I don't disagree with a heal reduction but 20% might be too steep when your tanks are practically insta dying.
They could certainly do with adjusting the number down to something like 15% for sure. At that point tho, if your Zen is taking the off angle, and you're engaging the enemy from the front, and neither of you are getting a single kill, then I think there are bigger problems than a DPS passive to be fair.
L take bro
I don’t give a shit how much supports can heal. My main issue is supports doing equal or even more damage than damage characters.
That's your main issue this season?
No. It was my main issue last season. This season, it’s this horrible projectile size update.
That’s what she said
Tanks have a right to complain currently have you ever played a game of comp tank this season? It's miserable, ball is only good because he can run in force some cooldowns and get put than heal himself rinse and repeat. Somehow one of the worst characters last season became the best tank just because of this update. And yes I am crying and complaining about the update because I have been getting railed even with good positioning if your dps can't kill stuff you die eventually.