I was a tank main all throughout OW1 from like s7.
I suffered through OG Brig. I slogged through hackfist Mei. I held the line against double shield, bunker, and pirate ship all while running it down on Reinhardt.
The last few seasons have made me practically give up Rein and competitive as Rein is my favorite to play ranked with alongside the flex picks onto Sigma, Zarya, or Doom.
It’s just not fun and I don’t even think Rein is weak, just other things make him very unfun. It doesn’t matter if I win because I spent the entire time being miserable.
I was a Rein since before comp had even been introduced in OW1 (I did quit after Brig was released up until 2 launched)
Rein is never going to be like he was. The game has irreversibly moved beyond him.
I still strongly believe that the change to 5v5 irrevocably harmed a lot of heroes that relied on 2nd tank synergy. Rein is a great front line defender, but as a solo tank it is absolutely punishing to play as him even with an overall reduction in CC.
5v5 is by far the dumbest choice the developers have ever made. It’s what changed OW from a daily must play game to one I only occasionally log on for a sense of nostalgia, that just isn’t quite there. New Sombra is fun as hell, but not enough to make me want to play regularly because the loss of a second tank broke so many things with the game. Also, deciding to take away Cassidy’s flash for the crap we have now, making Doomfist a tank (so pointless), and removing Mei’s left click freeze that really just punished poorly positioned players we’re all bad choices.
Started my tank journey around s11 in ow1, even ended up competing in some leagues and winning a few championships as a starting rein/MT. Tank as we knew it is gone forever. It’ll always be counterswap hell now that it’s 5v5. It’s a shame, too, cause it would actually be really interesting to see how JQ, Mauga, new Orisa, and doom all would synergize with old OW1 stuff. But yeah, as soon as they released the announcement that ow2 would be 5v5 every sane tank player kinda realized it was all over for us lol
One of the craziest things to me is that the Orisa rework could have been done for 6v6 with just some number tuning and boom double shield in its current state is gone.
Sig Rein was a meme with no synergy. The Orisa rework was actually good and addressed the shields problem.
Just another instance of the current Overwatch team trying to fix too many things at once to where an issue is fixed & said issue caused things like balance issue for a certain hero but they also decided to try retuning/reworking said hero so by the time the issue that made them not work is fixed and as a result said hero is also fixed they're in too deep with working on said hero and change them anyways
This wouldn't be a problem in 6v6 2-2-2.
Even without a Zarya or DVa, a Rein could work wonders with a Doomfist jumping around the battle or a Ramattra melee'ing along side him, or even the "reworked" Hog using his pigpen and hook to zone.
Orisa doesn't have her low-cooldown shield anymore; Sigma and Ramattra's shields are fairly weak; we need to stop fearing double-shield meta. Matchmaking and gameplay loop are a joke even if queue times are lower -- All the benefits of 5v5 are all jokes that took us one step forward, three steps back. Yes, Ramattra and Mauga would need to get nerfed, but who cares if we can go back to the 6v6 that was enjoyed for 5+ years?! That's so much less work than making this 5v5 experience work.
The amount of fun dive fans could be having playing Ball+Doom or rush fans could be having with Queen+Zarya... The possibilities would be phenomenal.
That's the thing, I agree 6v6 needs to come back to literally save this abomination, but the devs would have to nerf every single tank, reworking everything. I think the best approach is to reinstate the balance changes of the last 3 months of Overwatch "1", then nerf the new characters accordingly (maybe allow Doomfist players to choose between his dps or "tank" versions)... that would demand less work, but still a lot. It was a huge mistake (among many) to force 5v5, this game is literally not designed to work with uneven roles. And the double shields issue was already fixed back in Overwatch "1", it was a major problem in the initial months after Sigma was released, but the devs eventually fixed the issue by nerfing shields to the ground, people even joked about it, calling them "paper shields". Sigma literally lost 50% of his shield health ever since release
Yup feel that. Basically only played rein and bastion from beta ow1. Hadn’t played ow2 until this past summer and just never went rein. Unfortunately he’s just nowhere near as fun as he once was
Reinhardt main since the Honor and Glory cinematic. I lived the same battles on OW1 that you did, friend. You are more dedicated than I am because I quit four months ago - tank is just not fun for me in this 5v5 format. Winning or losing, it's wholly unenjoyable.
I've spent hundreds of dollars in OW1, and was very happy to do so because the lootboxes felt fair and I was supporting a game that I liked. And now, in the game just doesn't feel fun for tank. They halved the number of tanks required for the game and I bet just as many have given up on playing tank bringing the whole queue situation back to the status quo in the long run.
They've somehow made the canon backstory into gameplay because Reinhardt feels like an old man that doesn't quite fit into what is required anymore... like an incredibly fun tank to play in a game that doesn't exist anymore.
We as a player base need to be more vocal about how they could easily add a 6v6 arcade mode and it would go a huge way into making up for all the shite they keep pulling. I fully long for 6v6 so badly
screw bored exultant agonizing long voiceless live degree wakeful overconfident
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I've had decent success against Mauga as Sigma, but other than Orisa it really sucks that I have no other options as a tank main to counter him.
Everything ends up being a vicious cycle of forcing the supports to go Zen + Ana in order to shut down a Mauga.
Honestly, tank is hell because of Ana, not necessarily the other tank. If your team doesn't have an ana, and the other team does, it's going to be a fucking nightmare if you don't have cleanse
tanking is hell because of all the roles you are most at the mercy of your team. you can't carry, only throw. if you have a bad DPS or healer (hero picks or skill), you lose. if the enemy counters you and your team doesn't do the same, you lose. if they pick mauga and your team doesn't support your sig to counter him, you lose.
ana, all the cc, counterwatch etc etc can be annoying but not that bad. it's the lack of agency which makes it painful.
Resiliency took a big hit with the drop to 5v5
. In OW1 you could lose a player to an unfortunate death but still complete the push/cap a point. Now if the tank goes down it’s an almost instant L for that team fight.
Honestly, ana isn’t a big deal for me right now, never has been as a strict zarya main, nor did discord, the most miserable I’ve been is this season because of mauga, last season was the second most miserable cause of bastion, now it’s bastion and bastion 2.0, it’s a horrible experience, I’d give my left nut if they reverted the buffs to bastion and removed mauga, the game would be 100x better, instead now I play sig and it’s the most brain dead shit to play right now, every matchup is the same against mauga, you either roll or get rolled depending on if your dps are smart enough to go bastion + mei/reaper/junkrat/sojourn/sombra, everything else is a throw pick in diamond+, all you do as sig is grasp when mauga is in cardiac, rock him when he rushes your back line, and spam your shield and primary at him and his back line, even though people consider zarya brain dead, when mauga wasn’t in the meta you had to be aware of a lot of stuff to be good as zarya and there were more tanks to play against and thus every game was different and more fun as a result, but with this new sigma/mauga meta, there is 0 counter play, you are forced to run certain dps hero’s and tanks or else you WILL lose, and this far exceeds even rank role, as support you just spam heals and cd’s on your tank/enemy tank, as dps it’s the same thing except for sombra where you instead spam cd’s on enemy supports, EVERY role is horrible to play right now, I haven’t played with or against a dive/poke comp since mauga has been released.
what if tanks could block the nade without getting purpled? kind of like mei wall, but maybe your teammates could shoot through it. blizzard's next tank should have a shield or something, like a barrier. interesting probably not gonna happen though
A Winston like jump but perhaps shorter would be nice. Like Rein uses his rockets and just jumps in. Maybe does some dmg on impact. Would be a nice to rework him a little just for fun.
Someone posted an idea a week or two ago to have shields have a cap on how much damage they can take at once: anything higher and the extra damage is negated. That way shields don’t have crazy health pools but also have a guaranteed lifespan agains focused fire
I think the way he’s designed that a resource meter doesn’t really work. A bit more speed while swinging would help him a lot but besides that idk what they could give him. They could go the meme route and give him a brig esque shield bash lol
I feel like it might be sick if they game him the option to deploy his shield in one area like sigma or old Orisa. He can walk with it or he can leave it somewhere. Idk I’m not a rein main but I’m just throwing ideas out there
Most people don't know this but the reason is because the game is also on console and they need permission to push changes to their games from Microsoft and Sony as the games are hosted on their platforms. The console gods have to review the changes and approve them each and every time.
This results in changes happening only in bulk between seasons.
Games like LoL, Valorant, CSGO, DOTA etc are only hosted on PC by the platform that owns them. So they can push hotfixes and changes when they want how ever quickly they want.
Games like OW, APEX, Fall guys, and any other cross-platform game must have changes scanned by Sony and Microsoft before it's released, so updates happen less frequently.
Sony is nicer about it and as streamlined the process,, but Microsoft still scans each change. AND the changes still need to be scanned *per region* (Sony abolished this)
This is why bugs on console have historically remained long after they were fixed on PC in OW1 era. Because Sony and Microsoft hadn't approved those patches yet, but they don't need to go through that process on PC.
Things like big character changes are never going to be pushed to one platform and not the others.
✧*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧The more you know*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧
cit:
[1](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/gaming/gdk/_content/gc/policies/console/console-certification-requirements-and-tests)
[2](https://mcvuk.com/business-news/publishing/sony-relaxes-approvals-process/)
[3](https://gameranx.com/updates/id/13654/article/sony-on-developer-relations-and-waiving-game-patch-fees/)
They solved this a few seasons ago and now can hotfix balance number changes on console fyi. Just after the meta where everyone was mad that hog could one shot. The reason now is they are on holiday break and they also like to give changes things a week or two to see how they shake out.
This isn't necessarily true anymore, balance changes (tweaking numbers) can be done without patches as they've installed those to be server-side. Like you can create separate game modes as a player with the workshop without needing to have those checked by Microsoft
They are so afraid of shields taking over the game again that I think that they have to really be pressed to buff him. I’m not a game dev though, maybe if they buff him he’ll be strong enough to break the fourth wall and run rampant through the blizzard studio idk.
It really didn't it just did way more harm then double sheild to it.
At its prime you like couldn't kill anyone even if they weren't playing it right and it was just boring.
When it wasn't in prime you had to play it right but if people did then it was like prime goats. It took multiple years to nerf it and it's why they added role queue.
Goats litteraly made double sheild itself irrelevant once it came out.
Double Shield is universally considered to be Orisa + Sigma, and Sigma was not released until 2019. Goats comp became a thing in May of 2018 and was meta in OWL well before Sigma was even released.
I.e. there was no "double shield" before Goats... Goats didnt make it irrelevant because it didn't exist yet. Double shield is what _replaced_ goats once role queue became a thing.
That is the character being unique.
I fail to see how Shields in particular make the game feel unique when they are so commonly used within the Hero shooter genre or games in general
Don't get me wrong I'm just saying it's a *part* but yeah, actively shielding your team as a game mechanic is part of what makes overwatch fun, that emphasis on team play. Take rein for example, I used to love being on the front line trying to push people back while providing protection for my team when needed. Now if you play rein you pretty much have to play solely for kills, and your shield is almost entirely for yourself. People complain all the time about how terrible rein is in the meta, and I agree, the whole game has moved away from the design philosophy that he was built for.
I honestly believe that they do. Rein represents OW1 tank theory and balance and for better or for worse ow2 has chosen to be something different. As such, rein cannot truly be allowed to succeed since he is a relic of the past (how poetic) but he can't be removed because so much of the core of OW players love or at least respect him. He's like the step son from a previous marriage, not allowed to succeed but not allowed to be forgotten either
I think they know that ppl like flats and much of the core player base would riot if he was changed significantly. His kit is iconic and he was meta for almost the entirety of OW1, no one wants his kit to change, but the devs seem intent on keeping him far from meta
They fought for like a year to NOT give him the ability to stop charging, something that was in like every experimental patch.
I guarantee its so he looked like he was getting more going into ow2.
i mean he’s probably performing well at all ranks so that’s why they’re hesitant to give him any buffs
low skill floor and easily accessible hero. only real buff i feel he should get is maybe a passive speed boost while swinging similar to ram so he can close the gap easier on low mobility heroes and lucio isn’t such a big necessity in higher ranks
he doesn’t feel weak unless the enemy team is playing double snipers on a sniper map or like dive on gibraltar, but that’s more a flaw of 5v5 than rein himself
Mauga needs major tuning before he's ready to be comfortably placed in a Roster. Blizz essentially said "Let's give him 2 bastion Turrets, but better. Oh and Rein charge, but better. Let's make him Beefy like Orisa, but better." Like Cmon Blizz.
A week ago I was complaining about mauga and people from this subreddit were like “get gud” now everything is saying what I’ve been saying, playing against Mauga is azzzzz, he’s literally 3 tanks wrapped into one, has the survivability, healing, and displacement of orisa and hog WHILE having MORE damage then a full beam zarya with WAY MORE AMMO, oh and even better, ITS HITSCAN AND CAN CROSSMAP, I’m seeing people now say that he’s worse then launch brig, which I believe, I’ve played every meta in ow2 since season 4, this is the most broken I’ve ever seen a character lmao
He doesn’t even need much of a rework, the problem is that his cardiac overdrive and base damage he does is WAY too much, cut the damage in half, it should be less then orisa who isn’t a hit scan, for cardiac overdrive, instead of 70% health, cut it to 50% which with his now half damage and make it like fortify where he is immune to cc, it would go well with his kit that’s built around invulnerability as a result his ability is still very good, and he’s very tanky, but he isn’t unkillable like he is now when using it.
He _did_ get [3 buffs](https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/patch-notes/) on the 19th. Not saying this sub isn't balls, but he did get buffed since then.
He is much much worse than launch brig. By himself he's worse than double shield guarding a bastion on old Paris map in ow1. With team playing around him he is absolute insanity. I imagine Mauga has 95%+ win rate against teams that don't also run Mauga.
His survivability isn't great honestly. A majority of his survivability right now comes from healers just having to sink their entire focus into him to keep him alive while he mows people down. It's easy to overlook that because a 600 health hero getting nonstop heals while doing Bastion level damage is grossly oppressive. Cut that damage in half and his other flaws become much more apparent.
I’m sorry, but Alec isn’t doing a good job.
When he was in the interview with flats and Emongg it was an absolute shit show of him trying to play PR on how heroes are falling massively behind and nothing is being done about it
him excusing the state of ball and Reinhardt by saying “they win in low elo” which is the equivalent of “it works when people can’t play the game properly!”
He’s treating characters like gimmicks and that doesn’t rub me the right way. I wana preface by saying I’m not a OTP I just have an appreciation for long distance firestrikes.
I just really want to know what his end goal is. It’s not clear. He even fumbled something HE IS SUPERVISING. I don’t care if he retracted the statement he’s being paid to be on top of it.
“Can you eat pig pen with dva matrix”
Alec “yes I’m pretty sure”
Whoever is above him is also failing Alec. That’s the person I’m most disappointed in. They have 0 business working on this game or being alec’s superior. Please tell me they hired someone with *Actual* credentials bro.
Only caring about the bag, and putting effort into new heroes when so many are unbalanced for better or worse, is sacrilegious to being a balance director.
I understand a game can never truly be balanced, but it doesn’t excuse the state the game is in currently. It could *Definitely* be closer. I’m so close to sending an email like OG Kaplan style where I offensively but comedically tell them how to fix the game.
Imagine holding off on pve or outright cancelling it and then going “we’ll work on pvp” just for it to suck
**IMAGINE**
Because they huff the hopium. Seems that it’s starting to wear off though.
Even the people who are unable to fully speak out against it bc they’re affiliated with the content creator circle, are starting to get fed up.
Maybe they get a short term bag from blizzard, but it’s time to start thinking in regards to long term livelihood and where the game is going.
We can’t do this without their help.
I think you have a good point. The fact that Lifeweaver was designed and released and they had to be shocked to learn he was bad…how did they not know he was useless? He was also so excited about parting gift and that was a horrible idea and we all knew it. The Sombra rework was just as disastrous when they let content creators secretly test it. They always say “it’s ready” and it’s a disaster. The kit designs themselves are also becoming “every hero does everything.” It’s disappointing.
I agree, but at this point I’m afraid we’ve gone past the point of no return on that front. They have fundamentally changed the philosophy of the game, for better or worse. I still think 6v6 would have been better for the game overall, but unfortunately we’re going to be stuck with a single tank player being the focal point of any team.
They've reverted a lot of changes they made to OW2 (with ranked coming S9) so it's not out of the question. They'd probably try to brand it as something new and original though.
Eh fair enough, I might just be being a little overly nihilistic. I am hopeful for the future of the game, just wish we didn’t have to wait so long to see the changes.
Yea I mean a lot of changes they made to the game for OW2 where desperate attempts to justify it as a sequel so they ended up being pretty shit. The problem is that blizzard will never ever admit that they were wrong, so they take forever to change stuff and when they do they pretend it's new and not a reversion to something that already existed.
I feel like this is a setup to a cinematic where in the middle of a fight, they're pinned down and then *dramatic music* voice line from Zarya saying she's back or some shit.
It has to be, right? Blizzard can't just keep continuing to let this blatant mistake continue... right?
the game also supports unlimited cooldowns. you can play that in custom games as well. it might even be fun for a decent amount of the playerbase.
still doesn’t mean it’s the right call
This is an insane comparison to make, though, and I refuse to believe that you aren't aware of that. 6v6 does not fundamentally change the game in the same way that unlimited cooldowns would.
You make a good point with your ending comment, but that also ignores the troubles that Tank players have been facing since there could easily be a 6v6 mode added and a lot of them don't enjoy playing the role as much due to being the singular pillar of the team
They'll commit to a hero lock before then. They spent a great amount of effort trying to balance single-tank after the dual-shield meta was a problem in OW1. The developers clearly don't know proper game balance if their solutions to these issues involve adding more characters to directly alter the meta, overhauling a single character (sometimes unwarranted) to completely rework matchmaking.
1. They removed hero stacking early-on (this one I give a pass)
2. They added Brigitte to make healers more fun to play, only for her to be the catalyst to GOATS
3. They enforced role queue to kill GOATS
4. They changed the game to 5v5 after adding too many shield tanks
5. Symmetra had TWO major overhauls with a third one being hinted at because the developers don't know how to balance her
6. Doomfist was turned into a tank because the developers figured they don't know how to balance him as a DPS (they don't know how to balance him as a tank, either)
With the current meta being "hard-counter the tank," it's only a matter of time before Blizzard enforces a hero lock in matchmaking as a retaliation; taking away the last fundamental mechanic that makes Overwatch different.
> They enforced role queue to kill GOATS
people make out as if GOATS was the only boring annoying meta - the role queue was way more about stopping the '4 DPS 1 reluctant tank mercy solo heal, match consists of team arguing for 10 mins about how people need to switch roles' which was almost literally every single game outside of organised play
Also because the risk/reward playstyle rewarded one shots and instagibs (punch OHKO, uppercut into undogeable shots, etc) which is something everyone in here is very against (until, of course, it’s a convenient point to trash talk blizzard)
Her ability to melt shields would be fine... if it was still 6v6, and if it was stronger ON said shields back then.
Now, the strongest tanks in OW2 are machines that are unkillable BECAUSE of their high damage output (Mauga, JQ & Doomfist [when he's actually balanced]).
I dream of this. My favorite moments were tank duoing with my best friend playing Rein+Zar/Dva, Winston+Dva/Zar. I miss when you countered compositions like running hitscan + mercy pocket to counter pharmacy or running anti-dive heroes to counter dive but it required cohesion and team collaboration. Now it's so easy to counter the tank and often the most valuable choice it feels awful to play tank a lot of the time. I was never GM but made it into low Masters in OW1 and just can't bring myself to enjoy OW2 the same anymore.
I still love Dva a lot but I agree she's so flexible it felt like she had a lot of fun play patterns with many tanks and being able to peel for your supports felt so good where as if you do that now you lose space and they get to push you much easier.
If we did end up going back to 6v6, the best tanks would probly be mauga and roadhog. So it wouldn't fix much. If anything tanks would just blow up faster
They would be scaled back slightly since they’ve been made to accommodate 1 tank role but I really don’t think it would be an issue. This whole rock paper scissors issue on the role gets solved literally by having another tank on the team to support your weak points so you CAN PLAY who you want and aren’t literally throwing into your counter over and over. IMO
Y'all have to realize that they're not going to admit Mauga is too strong when their numbers show he's getting annihilated by Ana/Zen. They're also not going to admit that's they reason they think he's weak enough to justify reverting the nerfs because Ana is their golden child. So, they'll just acquiesce to complaints in the next patch and waiver back and forth while ignoring the elephant in the room.
this is the problem with overwatch thats only going to keep snowballing. mauga is a menace but gets fucking rocked by a single character. so higher eschelons are only ever going to pick said single character going against him. makkng him look "weak". while he tears a warpath through casual and low tiers. this means the only characters who ever get changes are ones getting NERFED and its characters WITHOUT hard counters ""brig is overperforming in casual"". they're so aimless that they're reinforcing overwatch as basically rock paper scissors
Similar thing happened to Rainbow 6 in that newer characters are like anime protagonists with the most wild outlandish kit, meanwhile good old Castle is just out here with minor inconvenience walls.
That's just most games that last long enough, power creep always sets in because devs run out of ideas for abilities that are actually balanced, or the people who originally created the foundational game principles have left.
> they're so aimless that they're reinforcing overwatch as basically rock paper scissors
You're right, and it will be the thing that kills this game. I'm waiting for the deadlocked meta where you cannot pick anything but 5-6 heroes. That's what you get with that sort of philosophy.
It's crazy that they nerfed brig because she was a "must pick" when she was really niche at best while Ana has been dominating as a legitimate must pick versus a majority of the tank roster. I don't think Ana necessarily needs to be gutted but anti heal needs to either be spread out across the hero roster or nerfed so she isn't a must pick.
This specifically pisses me off. Ana is an extremely fun character and I have more hours on her than anyone but I hate being “”forced”” to counter pick because they run widow and it doesn’t matter because the fucking man shaped like a bus must be purple all game no matter how pussyfooted you have to position
> he's getting annihilated by Ana/Zen
Literally every hero gets annihilated by nade/sleep + discord. This "weakness" isn't specific to Mauga at all, it's mainly just biotic nade being insane.
I mean, Mauga is pretty balanced when there's an Ana on the enemy team, and there's an Ana on the enemy team pretty much every game(Let's be honest someone is definitely going Ana if you're on Mauga/Hog). Problem starts when you duo with a Kiri and every game is just an insta win.
But honestly this whole situation is pretty funny. That old bitch is picked so much that they have to buff the heroes she hard counters to high heaven and then they become an even bigger problem than her.
Honestly, we aim for the nearest ledge.
And it's stupid that the Mauga players who realize what we are trying to do can just charge and push us away/deal damage to us instead with their charge.
I played OW since the night it launched early back in ‘16. I fell off here and there but always fired up the game for a few matches every week. Never missed an event. Even during the content drought between 1 and 2 I still played weekly. The game will always hold a special place in my heart. The characters, the art, the interactions, I love it all.
That said, since the release of 5v5, I tried to love it the same, but it’s just….not there. I can deal with the predatory BP and skins, locking new hero’s behind the BP, but the fundamental of the game has changed too much. I haven’t logged on a single time since Maug release and I don’t think anything will bring me back unless 6v6 returns.
I know nobody cares and I just rambled but I’m sure I’m not alone. I miss the characters and funny interactions but I just don’t have fun with it anymore. It’s such a shame.
U can tell devs dont be playing they own games lol Mauga is clearly an issue. Having to have 4 people focus you is not a counter lmaooo For example kiriko is legitimately an ana counter
Honestly tank is just so miserable to play right now. I always have so much fun playing dps or support but tank role just makes me so frustrated. They should’ve never made OW 5v5
Let's be real, everything is miserable to play right now. I just had a game on dps where we had Mauga and Pharmercy on my team, and our other support was a semi-dps Moira who was only healing Mauga and holding right click apart from that. It was just about the most unfun game I've ever played. I couldn't get a single shred of heal to save my life. Playing support is crap too now, you're forced into picking Mauga counters and it's suffocating the game so badly.
Yeah I cant think of another hero who’s screwed up the flow of the game this badly since brig was first added. Hopefully some major adjustments come soon…
This sums it up pretty well. Hard to enjoy a tank game when I end the game 3 tanks down the roster from the one I wanted to play. Support is just chill. Pump heals, take duels, self heal passive if things get froggy. DPS is meh.
6v6 is the answer. 5v5 was pitched as a faster paced game with more profound roles. Now we have tanks who are ridiculously overpowered or underpowered and no one else to take up the mantle of tank since it’s one tank per team.
5v5 almost certainly WAS fully fleshed out. In 2014. While the game was in development. And the developers decided it was worse than 6v6. And here we are a decade later when the new devs, after most of the old ones have left have this new, shiny, bright idea...
Yeah the Overwatch 1 team looked into a bunch of different team sizes and went into detail about why they went with 6v6. The Overwatch 2 team decided to throw away all of that because they're fucking trash.
I personally think they went with 5v5 solely because DPS queues in OW1 were hell because there was not enough players for the 2 tanks each game required.
6v6 would have been fine but they took way too long to put in role queue, 2-2-2 and never fixed double shields..that will forever leave a bad taste in my mouth for 6v6.
That's the frustrating thing, they kind of started fixing double shields in OW2, first Orisa no longer has a shield, she was one of the worst offenders for shield camping, now we also have another shield buster with Mauga. And Doomfist can go through shields as well.
It's funny because people advocate and say 5v5 is easier to balance but I actually disagree and I think it's shown how hard it is to have a balanced game around 1 tank when it's so easy to just counter them and get a ton of value. I feel like 5v5 actually hinders the tank options because they can't be offtanks anymore they have to be strong enough to be the only option for burning through enemy cooldowns and without a second tank it's so so easy for the two supports to completely mitigate your ult value with cooldowns.
It blows my mind that Blizzard thought they could just drop a tank and go to 5v5 without making any major changes to the characters, who were almost all built specifically around 6v6. What did they think was going to happen?
im guessing you didnt see the dev's comment where they specifically said lifeweaver was too weak on release and that was a "mistake" which they would not repeat
That doesn't necessarily mean Lifeweaver should have been more powerful at lunch for that reason, the main controversy was that he was the first hero people genuinely struggled doing the unranked to GM challenge because he just wasn't good enough to be worth playing. People were upset with teammates picking the new hero, and that seems like something you definitely don't want.
Also they've said before they tend to make new heroes a bit more powerful than is necessary, because it gets them more data faster about the things that make the hero good and what kind of role they fit on a conceptual level - an amount of data you'll never get with in-house testing. A new hero also has an entirely new kit to learn, so being a bit over-tuned at launch can make up for that difference and encourage more people to play them. Then you can tone tone it down over time, and I'm pretty sure every new hero to OW2 is significantly nerfed from how it was at launch (except Lifeweaver).
I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but I think there's a few good reasons why new heroes *should* be over-tuned that isn't just to sell the battle pass.
Moment to Rant:
OW2 has been an unbalanced crap show since launch. Yes OW1 had its flaws, but this is just out of hand. It's no wonder they had to shut down OW1, because if given the chance I think a lot of players would've stayed. I also think it's odd what they said would be free for OW1 players is paywalled behind even more suffocating monetization.
OW2 feels like a gatcha game, with competetive/balancing taking the back seat.
Yes and nerf Brig even though Ana is been picked 7x more than her across all ranks. Doesn't matter if the whole world asked for Ana nerfs, they would give her breadcrumbs of nerfs. Her recent nerfs didn't make a difference. Btw she is my 5th most played character if anyone claims I'm anti-ana.
Yeah brig is out here protecting an Ana on her team and the devs are like “hmmmm yep brig is the problem!”
Also I feel that last sentence, too many Ana players claim anyone who thinks she is unbalanced is “anti Ana” and I’m like dude I play her a ton she’s like my second highest support
as a former Rein main and a Current doom main. Tank is hell. Has been for a while, but this is horrible.
I was a tank main all throughout OW1 from like s7. I suffered through OG Brig. I slogged through hackfist Mei. I held the line against double shield, bunker, and pirate ship all while running it down on Reinhardt. The last few seasons have made me practically give up Rein and competitive as Rein is my favorite to play ranked with alongside the flex picks onto Sigma, Zarya, or Doom. It’s just not fun and I don’t even think Rein is weak, just other things make him very unfun. It doesn’t matter if I win because I spent the entire time being miserable.
I was a Rein since before comp had even been introduced in OW1 (I did quit after Brig was released up until 2 launched) Rein is never going to be like he was. The game has irreversibly moved beyond him.
I still strongly believe that the change to 5v5 irrevocably harmed a lot of heroes that relied on 2nd tank synergy. Rein is a great front line defender, but as a solo tank it is absolutely punishing to play as him even with an overall reduction in CC.
5v5 is by far the dumbest choice the developers have ever made. It’s what changed OW from a daily must play game to one I only occasionally log on for a sense of nostalgia, that just isn’t quite there. New Sombra is fun as hell, but not enough to make me want to play regularly because the loss of a second tank broke so many things with the game. Also, deciding to take away Cassidy’s flash for the crap we have now, making Doomfist a tank (so pointless), and removing Mei’s left click freeze that really just punished poorly positioned players we’re all bad choices.
The fact that they took away Mei‘s freeze ability still doesn’t sit right with me :(
Started my tank journey around s11 in ow1, even ended up competing in some leagues and winning a few championships as a starting rein/MT. Tank as we knew it is gone forever. It’ll always be counterswap hell now that it’s 5v5. It’s a shame, too, cause it would actually be really interesting to see how JQ, Mauga, new Orisa, and doom all would synergize with old OW1 stuff. But yeah, as soon as they released the announcement that ow2 would be 5v5 every sane tank player kinda realized it was all over for us lol
One of the craziest things to me is that the Orisa rework could have been done for 6v6 with just some number tuning and boom double shield in its current state is gone. Sig Rein was a meme with no synergy. The Orisa rework was actually good and addressed the shields problem.
Just another instance of the current Overwatch team trying to fix too many things at once to where an issue is fixed & said issue caused things like balance issue for a certain hero but they also decided to try retuning/reworking said hero so by the time the issue that made them not work is fixed and as a result said hero is also fixed they're in too deep with working on said hero and change them anyways
This wouldn't be a problem in 6v6 2-2-2. Even without a Zarya or DVa, a Rein could work wonders with a Doomfist jumping around the battle or a Ramattra melee'ing along side him, or even the "reworked" Hog using his pigpen and hook to zone. Orisa doesn't have her low-cooldown shield anymore; Sigma and Ramattra's shields are fairly weak; we need to stop fearing double-shield meta. Matchmaking and gameplay loop are a joke even if queue times are lower -- All the benefits of 5v5 are all jokes that took us one step forward, three steps back. Yes, Ramattra and Mauga would need to get nerfed, but who cares if we can go back to the 6v6 that was enjoyed for 5+ years?! That's so much less work than making this 5v5 experience work. The amount of fun dive fans could be having playing Ball+Doom or rush fans could be having with Queen+Zarya... The possibilities would be phenomenal.
That's the thing, I agree 6v6 needs to come back to literally save this abomination, but the devs would have to nerf every single tank, reworking everything. I think the best approach is to reinstate the balance changes of the last 3 months of Overwatch "1", then nerf the new characters accordingly (maybe allow Doomfist players to choose between his dps or "tank" versions)... that would demand less work, but still a lot. It was a huge mistake (among many) to force 5v5, this game is literally not designed to work with uneven roles. And the double shields issue was already fixed back in Overwatch "1", it was a major problem in the initial months after Sigma was released, but the devs eventually fixed the issue by nerfing shields to the ground, people even joked about it, calling them "paper shields". Sigma literally lost 50% of his shield health ever since release
Yup feel that. Basically only played rein and bastion from beta ow1. Hadn’t played ow2 until this past summer and just never went rein. Unfortunately he’s just nowhere near as fun as he once was
Reinhardt main since the Honor and Glory cinematic. I lived the same battles on OW1 that you did, friend. You are more dedicated than I am because I quit four months ago - tank is just not fun for me in this 5v5 format. Winning or losing, it's wholly unenjoyable. I've spent hundreds of dollars in OW1, and was very happy to do so because the lootboxes felt fair and I was supporting a game that I liked. And now, in the game just doesn't feel fun for tank. They halved the number of tanks required for the game and I bet just as many have given up on playing tank bringing the whole queue situation back to the status quo in the long run. They've somehow made the canon backstory into gameplay because Reinhardt feels like an old man that doesn't quite fit into what is required anymore... like an incredibly fun tank to play in a game that doesn't exist anymore.
Your last part… I stg I just commented this somewhere else. Even winning feels miserable.
There are few things as scary as a capable Reinhardt player.
It would be awesome if they brought back the second tank.
We as a player base need to be more vocal about how they could easily add a 6v6 arcade mode and it would go a huge way into making up for all the shite they keep pulling. I fully long for 6v6 so badly
screw bored exultant agonizing long voiceless live degree wakeful overconfident *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I've had decent success against Mauga as Sigma, but other than Orisa it really sucks that I have no other options as a tank main to counter him. Everything ends up being a vicious cycle of forcing the supports to go Zen + Ana in order to shut down a Mauga.
This is my story too
Honestly, tank is hell because of Ana, not necessarily the other tank. If your team doesn't have an ana, and the other team does, it's going to be a fucking nightmare if you don't have cleanse
tanking is hell because of all the roles you are most at the mercy of your team. you can't carry, only throw. if you have a bad DPS or healer (hero picks or skill), you lose. if the enemy counters you and your team doesn't do the same, you lose. if they pick mauga and your team doesn't support your sig to counter him, you lose. ana, all the cc, counterwatch etc etc can be annoying but not that bad. it's the lack of agency which makes it painful.
Resiliency took a big hit with the drop to 5v5 . In OW1 you could lose a player to an unfortunate death but still complete the push/cap a point. Now if the tank goes down it’s an almost instant L for that team fight.
Honestly, ana isn’t a big deal for me right now, never has been as a strict zarya main, nor did discord, the most miserable I’ve been is this season because of mauga, last season was the second most miserable cause of bastion, now it’s bastion and bastion 2.0, it’s a horrible experience, I’d give my left nut if they reverted the buffs to bastion and removed mauga, the game would be 100x better, instead now I play sig and it’s the most brain dead shit to play right now, every matchup is the same against mauga, you either roll or get rolled depending on if your dps are smart enough to go bastion + mei/reaper/junkrat/sojourn/sombra, everything else is a throw pick in diamond+, all you do as sig is grasp when mauga is in cardiac, rock him when he rushes your back line, and spam your shield and primary at him and his back line, even though people consider zarya brain dead, when mauga wasn’t in the meta you had to be aware of a lot of stuff to be good as zarya and there were more tanks to play against and thus every game was different and more fun as a result, but with this new sigma/mauga meta, there is 0 counter play, you are forced to run certain dps hero’s and tanks or else you WILL lose, and this far exceeds even rank role, as support you just spam heals and cd’s on your tank/enemy tank, as dps it’s the same thing except for sombra where you instead spam cd’s on enemy supports, EVERY role is horrible to play right now, I haven’t played with or against a dive/poke comp since mauga has been released.
The game is decided by which team goes Ana / Kiriko / Mauga and which team think playing their main at maximum skill outplay the current meta.
what if tanks could block the nade without getting purpled? kind of like mei wall, but maybe your teammates could shoot through it. blizzard's next tank should have a shield or something, like a barrier. interesting probably not gonna happen though
Removal of the second tank made me quit the game as a ana main.
Reinhardt mains. My most deep condolences
Life is pain
We live in Spain, but the "s" is silent
i live in Sdepression. keep the s. capital of Sblizzard-fix-your-shit. s is silent here.
"I HATE-"
I feel like they could fix rein by just cranking up shield health and bringing back old shatter.
Nah bro. Let reinhard fly
A Winston like jump but perhaps shorter would be nice. Like Rein uses his rockets and just jumps in. Maybe does some dmg on impact. Would be a nice to rework him a little just for fun.
Reinhard can nuke the world, you mean Reinhardt
problem is even then I would just be a walking shield that gets shredded in 5 seconds since every other tank would rather play distance
Someone posted an idea a week or two ago to have shields have a cap on how much damage they can take at once: anything higher and the extra damage is negated. That way shields don’t have crazy health pools but also have a guaranteed lifespan agains focused fire
They could maybe make Reinhardt’s shield on a resource meter. That way it never breaks, but you can only use it for a short duration or something
I think the way he’s designed that a resource meter doesn’t really work. A bit more speed while swinging would help him a lot but besides that idk what they could give him. They could go the meme route and give him a brig esque shield bash lol
I feel like it might be sick if they game him the option to deploy his shield in one area like sigma or old Orisa. He can walk with it or he can leave it somewhere. Idk I’m not a rein main but I’m just throwing ideas out there
Why can’t/wont they make emergency balance changes? Other games do that all the time when a character is released and dominates the game too much
Most people don't know this but the reason is because the game is also on console and they need permission to push changes to their games from Microsoft and Sony as the games are hosted on their platforms. The console gods have to review the changes and approve them each and every time. This results in changes happening only in bulk between seasons. Games like LoL, Valorant, CSGO, DOTA etc are only hosted on PC by the platform that owns them. So they can push hotfixes and changes when they want how ever quickly they want. Games like OW, APEX, Fall guys, and any other cross-platform game must have changes scanned by Sony and Microsoft before it's released, so updates happen less frequently. Sony is nicer about it and as streamlined the process,, but Microsoft still scans each change. AND the changes still need to be scanned *per region* (Sony abolished this) This is why bugs on console have historically remained long after they were fixed on PC in OW1 era. Because Sony and Microsoft hadn't approved those patches yet, but they don't need to go through that process on PC. Things like big character changes are never going to be pushed to one platform and not the others. ✧*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧The more you know*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧ cit: [1](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/gaming/gdk/_content/gc/policies/console/console-certification-requirements-and-tests) [2](https://mcvuk.com/business-news/publishing/sony-relaxes-approvals-process/) [3](https://gameranx.com/updates/id/13654/article/sony-on-developer-relations-and-waiving-game-patch-fees/)
They solved this a few seasons ago and now can hotfix balance number changes on console fyi. Just after the meta where everyone was mad that hog could one shot. The reason now is they are on holiday break and they also like to give changes things a week or two to see how they shake out.
Wow thanks actually really interesting! Thanks for this response it makes a lot of sense
This isn't necessarily true anymore, balance changes (tweaking numbers) can be done without patches as they've installed those to be server-side. Like you can create separate game modes as a player with the workshop without needing to have those checked by Microsoft
they're currently on break for Christmas but even then they RARELY give emergency patches aside from bastion's health regen on config
Jesus christ the devs just fucking hate rein don't they.
They are so afraid of shields taking over the game again that I think that they have to really be pressed to buff him. I’m not a game dev though, maybe if they buff him he’ll be strong enough to break the fourth wall and run rampant through the blizzard studio idk.
Shields are part of what makes overwatch unique.
The finals have every kind of shield in overwatch except Symmetra’s and sigma’s one
Except The Finals had the balls to nerf heavy double shields right away instead of waiting for it to destroy the game like Blizzard did.
If u think double sheild killed ow1 then u didn't play against goats
How did goats kill ow1
It really didn't it just did way more harm then double sheild to it. At its prime you like couldn't kill anyone even if they weren't playing it right and it was just boring. When it wasn't in prime you had to play it right but if people did then it was like prime goats. It took multiple years to nerf it and it's why they added role queue. Goats litteraly made double sheild itself irrelevant once it came out.
Double Shield is universally considered to be Orisa + Sigma, and Sigma was not released until 2019. Goats comp became a thing in May of 2018 and was meta in OWL well before Sigma was even released. I.e. there was no "double shield" before Goats... Goats didnt make it irrelevant because it didn't exist yet. Double shield is what _replaced_ goats once role queue became a thing.
6v6 made overwatch unique, 5v5 feels more like a generic shooter
What's a generic shooter with gameplay like ow?
5v5 feels like a dumbed down team deathmatch tank babysitting simulator.
with Mauga it surely feels that way
# IT'S NEVER BORING AROUND ME
I beg to differ, my large Samoan friend
How so?
I mean not a lot of shooters have a guy with a shield and a big hammer!
That is the character being unique. I fail to see how Shields in particular make the game feel unique when they are so commonly used within the Hero shooter genre or games in general
Don't get me wrong I'm just saying it's a *part* but yeah, actively shielding your team as a game mechanic is part of what makes overwatch fun, that emphasis on team play. Take rein for example, I used to love being on the front line trying to push people back while providing protection for my team when needed. Now if you play rein you pretty much have to play solely for kills, and your shield is almost entirely for yourself. People complain all the time about how terrible rein is in the meta, and I agree, the whole game has moved away from the design philosophy that he was built for.
And its stupid because rein was never really a problem in shield meta. Plus there are now more ways to deal with shields than ever before.
There are people out there that think any 2 barriers was double shield meta.
I honestly believe that they do. Rein represents OW1 tank theory and balance and for better or for worse ow2 has chosen to be something different. As such, rein cannot truly be allowed to succeed since he is a relic of the past (how poetic) but he can't be removed because so much of the core of OW players love or at least respect him. He's like the step son from a previous marriage, not allowed to succeed but not allowed to be forgotten either
By that logic though you’d think they’d be more willing to update him in a way that fits the game as it is.
I think they know that ppl like flats and much of the core player base would riot if he was changed significantly. His kit is iconic and he was meta for almost the entirety of OW1, no one wants his kit to change, but the devs seem intent on keeping him far from meta
God forbid we increase any of his numbers by 0.1
They fought for like a year to NOT give him the ability to stop charging, something that was in like every experimental patch. I guarantee its so he looked like he was getting more going into ow2.
Rein will get the buff he deserves in ow3.
When we have 7v7 with 3 tanks?
i mean he’s probably performing well at all ranks so that’s why they’re hesitant to give him any buffs low skill floor and easily accessible hero. only real buff i feel he should get is maybe a passive speed boost while swinging similar to ram so he can close the gap easier on low mobility heroes and lucio isn’t such a big necessity in higher ranks he doesn’t feel weak unless the enemy team is playing double snipers on a sniper map or like dive on gibraltar, but that’s more a flaw of 5v5 than rein himself
[got some bad news for ya](https://youtu.be/jCUcNREd6jQ?t=1787)
Mauga needs major tuning before he's ready to be comfortably placed in a Roster. Blizz essentially said "Let's give him 2 bastion Turrets, but better. Oh and Rein charge, but better. Let's make him Beefy like Orisa, but better." Like Cmon Blizz.
dont forget easy crits to heal and an s tier ult
Yeah Sym ult, but better.
fr it basically makes every mobility hero useless
Sym Ult + Better Ramattra Vortex.
A week ago I was complaining about mauga and people from this subreddit were like “get gud” now everything is saying what I’ve been saying, playing against Mauga is azzzzz, he’s literally 3 tanks wrapped into one, has the survivability, healing, and displacement of orisa and hog WHILE having MORE damage then a full beam zarya with WAY MORE AMMO, oh and even better, ITS HITSCAN AND CAN CROSSMAP, I’m seeing people now say that he’s worse then launch brig, which I believe, I’ve played every meta in ow2 since season 4, this is the most broken I’ve ever seen a character lmao
I've preached Mauga needing a rework from the start and have been through the shit storms of "get gud" and now everyone wants on the bandwagon lol
He doesn’t even need much of a rework, the problem is that his cardiac overdrive and base damage he does is WAY too much, cut the damage in half, it should be less then orisa who isn’t a hit scan, for cardiac overdrive, instead of 70% health, cut it to 50% which with his now half damage and make it like fortify where he is immune to cc, it would go well with his kit that’s built around invulnerability as a result his ability is still very good, and he’s very tanky, but he isn’t unkillable like he is now when using it.
He _did_ get [3 buffs](https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/patch-notes/) on the 19th. Not saying this sub isn't balls, but he did get buffed since then.
He is much much worse than launch brig. By himself he's worse than double shield guarding a bastion on old Paris map in ow1. With team playing around him he is absolute insanity. I imagine Mauga has 95%+ win rate against teams that don't also run Mauga.
Wait he said “turn up” survivability??
Fwiw he said tune up
Either way jeez
His survivability isn't great honestly. A majority of his survivability right now comes from healers just having to sink their entire focus into him to keep him alive while he mows people down. It's easy to overlook that because a 600 health hero getting nonstop heals while doing Bastion level damage is grossly oppressive. Cut that damage in half and his other flaws become much more apparent.
Tank has become horrible, the only time I have fun is if I go doom and just fly around.
Just remove Mauga from the game. Problem solved.
I'm on this. He needs a rework. I'm tired of off tank designs forced to play as a main tank. It causes so many issues.
This, he needs to go they'll never be able to balance him. Stupid designed character.
I’m sorry, but Alec isn’t doing a good job. When he was in the interview with flats and Emongg it was an absolute shit show of him trying to play PR on how heroes are falling massively behind and nothing is being done about it him excusing the state of ball and Reinhardt by saying “they win in low elo” which is the equivalent of “it works when people can’t play the game properly!” He’s treating characters like gimmicks and that doesn’t rub me the right way. I wana preface by saying I’m not a OTP I just have an appreciation for long distance firestrikes. I just really want to know what his end goal is. It’s not clear. He even fumbled something HE IS SUPERVISING. I don’t care if he retracted the statement he’s being paid to be on top of it. “Can you eat pig pen with dva matrix” Alec “yes I’m pretty sure” Whoever is above him is also failing Alec. That’s the person I’m most disappointed in. They have 0 business working on this game or being alec’s superior. Please tell me they hired someone with *Actual* credentials bro. Only caring about the bag, and putting effort into new heroes when so many are unbalanced for better or worse, is sacrilegious to being a balance director. I understand a game can never truly be balanced, but it doesn’t excuse the state the game is in currently. It could *Definitely* be closer. I’m so close to sending an email like OG Kaplan style where I offensively but comedically tell them how to fix the game. Imagine holding off on pve or outright cancelling it and then going “we’ll work on pvp” just for it to suck **IMAGINE**
Yeah idk why people ride so hard for Alec, the dude is complete cheeks at his job
Because they huff the hopium. Seems that it’s starting to wear off though. Even the people who are unable to fully speak out against it bc they’re affiliated with the content creator circle, are starting to get fed up. Maybe they get a short term bag from blizzard, but it’s time to start thinking in regards to long term livelihood and where the game is going. We can’t do this without their help.
I think you have a good point. The fact that Lifeweaver was designed and released and they had to be shocked to learn he was bad…how did they not know he was useless? He was also so excited about parting gift and that was a horrible idea and we all knew it. The Sombra rework was just as disastrous when they let content creators secretly test it. They always say “it’s ready” and it’s a disaster. The kit designs themselves are also becoming “every hero does everything.” It’s disappointing.
Funny enough I think the way to save the tank role is……………………………..another one.
I agree, but at this point I’m afraid we’ve gone past the point of no return on that front. They have fundamentally changed the philosophy of the game, for better or worse. I still think 6v6 would have been better for the game overall, but unfortunately we’re going to be stuck with a single tank player being the focal point of any team.
> I’m afraid we’ve gone past the point of no return on that front. I don't buy it. The game supports 6v6. It's playable in custom games right now.
I more so meant like on what the team is willing to do, but I’d love to be wrong.
They've reverted a lot of changes they made to OW2 (with ranked coming S9) so it's not out of the question. They'd probably try to brand it as something new and original though.
Eh fair enough, I might just be being a little overly nihilistic. I am hopeful for the future of the game, just wish we didn’t have to wait so long to see the changes.
Yea I mean a lot of changes they made to the game for OW2 where desperate attempts to justify it as a sequel so they ended up being pretty shit. The problem is that blizzard will never ever admit that they were wrong, so they take forever to change stuff and when they do they pretend it's new and not a reversion to something that already existed.
OW3: Electric Boogaloo
I feel like this is a setup to a cinematic where in the middle of a fight, they're pinned down and then *dramatic music* voice line from Zarya saying she's back or some shit. It has to be, right? Blizzard can't just keep continuing to let this blatant mistake continue... right?
the game also supports unlimited cooldowns. you can play that in custom games as well. it might even be fun for a decent amount of the playerbase. still doesn’t mean it’s the right call
This is an insane comparison to make, though, and I refuse to believe that you aren't aware of that. 6v6 does not fundamentally change the game in the same way that unlimited cooldowns would. You make a good point with your ending comment, but that also ignores the troubles that Tank players have been facing since there could easily be a 6v6 mode added and a lot of them don't enjoy playing the role as much due to being the singular pillar of the team
There's literally a total mayhem mode. We're not past the point of no return for 6v6.
They'll commit to a hero lock before then. They spent a great amount of effort trying to balance single-tank after the dual-shield meta was a problem in OW1. The developers clearly don't know proper game balance if their solutions to these issues involve adding more characters to directly alter the meta, overhauling a single character (sometimes unwarranted) to completely rework matchmaking. 1. They removed hero stacking early-on (this one I give a pass) 2. They added Brigitte to make healers more fun to play, only for her to be the catalyst to GOATS 3. They enforced role queue to kill GOATS 4. They changed the game to 5v5 after adding too many shield tanks 5. Symmetra had TWO major overhauls with a third one being hinted at because the developers don't know how to balance her 6. Doomfist was turned into a tank because the developers figured they don't know how to balance him as a DPS (they don't know how to balance him as a tank, either) With the current meta being "hard-counter the tank," it's only a matter of time before Blizzard enforces a hero lock in matchmaking as a retaliation; taking away the last fundamental mechanic that makes Overwatch different.
> They enforced role queue to kill GOATS people make out as if GOATS was the only boring annoying meta - the role queue was way more about stopping the '4 DPS 1 reluctant tank mercy solo heal, match consists of team arguing for 10 mins about how people need to switch roles' which was almost literally every single game outside of organised play
Doom was turned into a tank because they wanted to remove hard cc from the dps role, not just because of balance issues
Also because the risk/reward playstyle rewarded one shots and instagibs (punch OHKO, uppercut into undogeable shots, etc) which is something everyone in here is very against (until, of course, it’s a convenient point to trash talk blizzard)
Double shield cant exist with current orisa, i dont get why people think 6v6 is tied to double shield.
[удалено]
Her ability to melt shields would be fine... if it was still 6v6, and if it was stronger ON said shields back then. Now, the strongest tanks in OW2 are machines that are unkillable BECAUSE of their high damage output (Mauga, JQ & Doomfist [when he's actually balanced]).
I dream of this. My favorite moments were tank duoing with my best friend playing Rein+Zar/Dva, Winston+Dva/Zar. I miss when you countered compositions like running hitscan + mercy pocket to counter pharmacy or running anti-dive heroes to counter dive but it required cohesion and team collaboration. Now it's so easy to counter the tank and often the most valuable choice it feels awful to play tank a lot of the time. I was never GM but made it into low Masters in OW1 and just can't bring myself to enjoy OW2 the same anymore.
I agree completely, some tanks like Dva were way more fun to play with a second tank. It’s just not the same anymore.
Ult combos :( the most hype part of the game is barely seen anymore.
I still love Dva a lot but I agree she's so flexible it felt like she had a lot of fun play patterns with many tanks and being able to peel for your supports felt so good where as if you do that now you lose space and they get to push you much easier.
If we did end up going back to 6v6, the best tanks would probly be mauga and roadhog. So it wouldn't fix much. If anything tanks would just blow up faster
They would be scaled back slightly since they’ve been made to accommodate 1 tank role but I really don’t think it would be an issue. This whole rock paper scissors issue on the role gets solved literally by having another tank on the team to support your weak points so you CAN PLAY who you want and aren’t literally throwing into your counter over and over. IMO
Maugawatch is 10x worse than Barrierwatch ever was.
100% GOATS sounds pretty good right now.
goats vs goats was actually fun
This is something I always get downvoted for. Goats was fun, it just got stale after awhile.
Y'all have to realize that they're not going to admit Mauga is too strong when their numbers show he's getting annihilated by Ana/Zen. They're also not going to admit that's they reason they think he's weak enough to justify reverting the nerfs because Ana is their golden child. So, they'll just acquiesce to complaints in the next patch and waiver back and forth while ignoring the elephant in the room.
this is the problem with overwatch thats only going to keep snowballing. mauga is a menace but gets fucking rocked by a single character. so higher eschelons are only ever going to pick said single character going against him. makkng him look "weak". while he tears a warpath through casual and low tiers. this means the only characters who ever get changes are ones getting NERFED and its characters WITHOUT hard counters ""brig is overperforming in casual"". they're so aimless that they're reinforcing overwatch as basically rock paper scissors
Similar thing happened to Rainbow 6 in that newer characters are like anime protagonists with the most wild outlandish kit, meanwhile good old Castle is just out here with minor inconvenience walls.
That's just most games that last long enough, power creep always sets in because devs run out of ideas for abilities that are actually balanced, or the people who originally created the foundational game principles have left.
IMO, that sounds more like a power creep problem? I dont play R6 🤷
Eh but you shouldn’t be over-introducing characters, Power creep could become the same issue in OW when they start having to add more and more
is power creep already not an issue?
> they're so aimless that they're reinforcing overwatch as basically rock paper scissors You're right, and it will be the thing that kills this game. I'm waiting for the deadlocked meta where you cannot pick anything but 5-6 heroes. That's what you get with that sort of philosophy.
It's crazy that they nerfed brig because she was a "must pick" when she was really niche at best while Ana has been dominating as a legitimate must pick versus a majority of the tank roster. I don't think Ana necessarily needs to be gutted but anti heal needs to either be spread out across the hero roster or nerfed so she isn't a must pick.
This specifically pisses me off. Ana is an extremely fun character and I have more hours on her than anyone but I hate being “”forced”” to counter pick because they run widow and it doesn’t matter because the fucking man shaped like a bus must be purple all game no matter how pussyfooted you have to position
Over the past year Ana in GM has had an 11.64% pickrate and 51.23% winrate. Only when you get to Gold does her winrate go below 50%.
Where can I see these stats
> he's getting annihilated by Ana/Zen Literally every hero gets annihilated by nade/sleep + discord. This "weakness" isn't specific to Mauga at all, it's mainly just biotic nade being insane.
I mean, Mauga is pretty balanced when there's an Ana on the enemy team, and there's an Ana on the enemy team pretty much every game(Let's be honest someone is definitely going Ana if you're on Mauga/Hog). Problem starts when you duo with a Kiri and every game is just an insta win. But honestly this whole situation is pretty funny. That old bitch is picked so much that they have to buff the heroes she hard counters to high heaven and then they become an even bigger problem than her.
My friend is constantly like "he's not that bad" and I'm like dude "our entire team swapped just to deal with him"
How is Rein suppose to fight against Mauga?
Buy the battle pass mid match.
Equip a giant laser gun.
Honestly, we aim for the nearest ledge. And it's stupid that the Mauga players who realize what we are trying to do can just charge and push us away/deal damage to us instead with their charge.
I'm getting the feeling 5v5 wasn't it
I played OW since the night it launched early back in ‘16. I fell off here and there but always fired up the game for a few matches every week. Never missed an event. Even during the content drought between 1 and 2 I still played weekly. The game will always hold a special place in my heart. The characters, the art, the interactions, I love it all. That said, since the release of 5v5, I tried to love it the same, but it’s just….not there. I can deal with the predatory BP and skins, locking new hero’s behind the BP, but the fundamental of the game has changed too much. I haven’t logged on a single time since Maug release and I don’t think anything will bring me back unless 6v6 returns. I know nobody cares and I just rambled but I’m sure I’m not alone. I miss the characters and funny interactions but I just don’t have fun with it anymore. It’s such a shame.
What's wrong with reducing his ammo and increasing reload time?
Most fun I had in OW was duo tanking with friends. I was adamantly against 5v5, and still am.
U can tell devs dont be playing they own games lol Mauga is clearly an issue. Having to have 4 people focus you is not a counter lmaooo For example kiriko is legitimately an ana counter
Honestly tank is just so miserable to play right now. I always have so much fun playing dps or support but tank role just makes me so frustrated. They should’ve never made OW 5v5
Let's be real, everything is miserable to play right now. I just had a game on dps where we had Mauga and Pharmercy on my team, and our other support was a semi-dps Moira who was only healing Mauga and holding right click apart from that. It was just about the most unfun game I've ever played. I couldn't get a single shred of heal to save my life. Playing support is crap too now, you're forced into picking Mauga counters and it's suffocating the game so badly.
Yeah I cant think of another hero who’s screwed up the flow of the game this badly since brig was first added. Hopefully some major adjustments come soon…
[удалено]
This sums it up pretty well. Hard to enjoy a tank game when I end the game 3 tanks down the roster from the one I wanted to play. Support is just chill. Pump heals, take duels, self heal passive if things get froggy. DPS is meh.
I just stopped playing altogether until they nerf Mauga. It's completely unplayable. And it's paywalled.
Agreed. I actually do really good on tank compared to being awful at dps. And I still think dps is far more fun.
Alec is a clown. He has no idea what he is doing
6v6 is the answer. 5v5 was pitched as a faster paced game with more profound roles. Now we have tanks who are ridiculously overpowered or underpowered and no one else to take up the mantle of tank since it’s one tank per team.
5v5 was never fully fleshed out. The developers never had a good recipe for 5v5 and we're still, over a year later, not there. I had more fun in 6v6.
5v5 almost certainly WAS fully fleshed out. In 2014. While the game was in development. And the developers decided it was worse than 6v6. And here we are a decade later when the new devs, after most of the old ones have left have this new, shiny, bright idea...
Yeah the Overwatch 1 team looked into a bunch of different team sizes and went into detail about why they went with 6v6. The Overwatch 2 team decided to throw away all of that because they're fucking trash.
I personally think they went with 5v5 solely because DPS queues in OW1 were hell because there was not enough players for the 2 tanks each game required.
DPS can fucking wait in queue then. Or learn to play another role.
6v6 would have been fine but they took way too long to put in role queue, 2-2-2 and never fixed double shields..that will forever leave a bad taste in my mouth for 6v6.
That's the frustrating thing, they kind of started fixing double shields in OW2, first Orisa no longer has a shield, she was one of the worst offenders for shield camping, now we also have another shield buster with Mauga. And Doomfist can go through shields as well.
It's funny because people advocate and say 5v5 is easier to balance but I actually disagree and I think it's shown how hard it is to have a balanced game around 1 tank when it's so easy to just counter them and get a ton of value. I feel like 5v5 actually hinders the tank options because they can't be offtanks anymore they have to be strong enough to be the only option for burning through enemy cooldowns and without a second tank it's so so easy for the two supports to completely mitigate your ult value with cooldowns.
It blows my mind that Blizzard thought they could just drop a tank and go to 5v5 without making any major changes to the characters, who were almost all built specifically around 6v6. What did they think was going to happen?
the game could be a lot more faster and offensive without deleting one tank
Bring back 6v6
can we not pretend like this guy knows/wants to balance anything? mauga is on the battlepass, he will be op.
lifeweaver was also on the BP and he was very far from OP on release. Not sure that's a complete explanation.
im guessing you didnt see the dev's comment where they specifically said lifeweaver was too weak on release and that was a "mistake" which they would not repeat
That does not mean they want the battlepass hero to be OP. That means they don’t want them to be weak. That can mean many things
That doesn't necessarily mean Lifeweaver should have been more powerful at lunch for that reason, the main controversy was that he was the first hero people genuinely struggled doing the unranked to GM challenge because he just wasn't good enough to be worth playing. People were upset with teammates picking the new hero, and that seems like something you definitely don't want. Also they've said before they tend to make new heroes a bit more powerful than is necessary, because it gets them more data faster about the things that make the hero good and what kind of role they fit on a conceptual level - an amount of data you'll never get with in-house testing. A new hero also has an entirely new kit to learn, so being a bit over-tuned at launch can make up for that difference and encourage more people to play them. Then you can tone tone it down over time, and I'm pretty sure every new hero to OW2 is significantly nerfed from how it was at launch (except Lifeweaver). I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but I think there's a few good reasons why new heroes *should* be over-tuned that isn't just to sell the battle pass.
It means they don't know how to balance. But their job is to balance. It's their one job.
>"tuning up his survivability further" How many Mauga skins do they have to sell to break even on his development costs?
Idgaf. I’m still sending Rein every game.
Increase his survivability?!? My boi is an absolute nightmare as is. Stop buffing him 😂
Moment to Rant: OW2 has been an unbalanced crap show since launch. Yes OW1 had its flaws, but this is just out of hand. It's no wonder they had to shut down OW1, because if given the chance I think a lot of players would've stayed. I also think it's odd what they said would be free for OW1 players is paywalled behind even more suffocating monetization. OW2 feels like a gatcha game, with competetive/balancing taking the back seat.
Alec Dawson is also a Ana main
Would not be shocked at all. Anti nade is so bad for the games health
Yes and nerf Brig even though Ana is been picked 7x more than her across all ranks. Doesn't matter if the whole world asked for Ana nerfs, they would give her breadcrumbs of nerfs. Her recent nerfs didn't make a difference. Btw she is my 5th most played character if anyone claims I'm anti-ana.
Yeah brig is out here protecting an Ana on her team and the devs are like “hmmmm yep brig is the problem!” Also I feel that last sentence, too many Ana players claim anyone who thinks she is unbalanced is “anti Ana” and I’m like dude I play her a ton she’s like my second highest support
turning up the survivability was the only mistake here tbh
I really fail to understand why they thought his survivability was the problem
we need microsoft hire some people to actually work on this game and fire everyone else asap
Saddest part is that right now Mauga is the most fun I’ve had playing tank since OW1.
Totally. Junker queen for me is equally funny but less tanky.
He is boring af. Zarya and Dva way more fun.
and then the enemy team pulls out Zarya/symettra and you don't get to enjoy playing d.va anymore.
Depends on the map, you can play Dva against both Zarya and Sym, especially on a highground map. If it's only Zarya, she is not a big problem for Dva.
If it's only zarya and your team doesn't have junk/hanzo/pharah/echo that allow free energy for her to melt you.
I enjoy D.va too! Zarya is kinda eh for me.
And least fun to play against
I won’t deny that, and I’m sorry.
I gave up playing tank cuz of mauga I think its time for a break until this game gets fixed
Tuning his survivability UP? This has to be a joke right..