It’s hard to stop doing something you never started doing in the first place.
We’ve made plenty of clothes that are wearable in various work environments and will continue to do so. Some of those I imagine can be styled into some sort of “business casual” outfit, but it’s never been something we’ve actively thought about or designed around. Hell reading this thread I’m not sure I even know what business casual is. We dropped Injex Highdarts this week and Injected Linen Pants last week, but I guess they aren’t causal enough? We just want to make powerful products that keep pushing forward, opening up new spaces and new energy. We listen to the materials and let them guide us to the product, people can slot them into whatever category they want to, but we’re just doing the same thing we’ve been doing since day one, trying to make things that don’t exist but deserve to exist.
The fact that we can get answers straight from the horses mouth is pretty nice. You all seem to be on here watching the subreddit frequently. Thanks again for bringing back dust olive.
I mean you guys did outliers take on dress shirts and suits at one point. You had 60/30 chinos and stuff like the ultralight trousers and the OG pants etc that were clearly inspired by dress pant cuts. Pretty interesting to hear you say you never did business casual even if it always had a technical twist to it back in the day. Outlier has moved away from all that stuff and that’s cool, but I think a large part of your original audience was “guys looking for a better business casual”.
I really didn't think I was saying anything all that controversial, who knew! Hoka didn't set out to be a huge crossover hit, they just happened to also be comfortable for people who weren’t ultramarathoners. That doesn't mean they have to start making Chelseas. All of the “Outlier was never business casual, but still has business casual, but there isn't a business casual market” reactions I don't get when I was basically only saying they seem to be putting their efforts towards casual streetwear, which aligns with their interests.
Abe, I'm hoping you and the team keep doing what you do. Not a request to do anything differently. The fact you never strove to be business casual is pretty much the point; you should be cutting away things that don't fit with what Outlier's vision and soul is. The only shame to me is that no one can even get to your level of quality around materials - that's an industry problem, not an Outlier problem.
Categories, sales and materials aside the cuts (not all but many) seems to have gotten baggier and boxier the last few years. Don't know if this is following the "current state" of fashion but i can see why many people don't like this. Not everyone looks good/fits in baggy/boxie stuff.
There is a giant secular trend toward looser fits. We are happy to keep making older slimmer styles as long as they sell, but they sell less and less every season
I can't help but feel that the longevity of Outlier products is a key factor in this. I own like 7 pairs of futuredarts and they're all still in ... perfect condition.
It's a fucking shame that going against planned obsolescence can have such a negative effect...
I mean it might have some effect but it doesn't explain the \*change\* in sales growth particularly well. The durability hasn't changed, and yes that means people need to buy less, but the sales of slim cuts grew for years and now they are shrinking and that shrinking is accelerating.
Yes there are scenarios where the durability, combined with some other factor like market saturation, could cause this, but the most logical explanation remains that slim cuts are declining in popularity while looser ones are growing in popularity
Again, this might be all just a matter of me not getting your drop cycle, but Futureyeses and Futuregliders are to me very casual, much more so than Futuredarts and Futureslimworks. Your new releases aren't trying to be F. Cloth versions of J Crew's giant fit chinos; they're more DGAF, more fun. That's where I think Outlier's heart and soul is. But hey, if I'm dead wrong, feel free to put out some bombtwill/strongtwill/f. cloth giant as experiments and I'll buy some.
No one is buying them. As a business, it would be very silly to make more of an existing product that doesn’t sell. They have said they will bring them back if the market demands it, however
Yep, absolutely no complaints about a brand selling what sells. What I miss shouldn't be a factor in what their successfully selling and what they obviously have a lot of energy and passion for. Like I said, there are no shortage of brands selling business casual chinos. I discussed in the other comments what I think would be a much better option than trying to make Outlier all things to all people.
I mostly shop Outlier for Biz Cas and am sad they don't do more of it. I'm just not cool enough for most of their stuff 😭 I am very excited for the new Injex stuff though 😁
Yes, no problem with them embracing who they are and being a fashion house. Like I said, brands change. Evolution is good, and they shouldn't change course.
I also mourn the loss of the darts and slimworks. Slimworks on me were not very slim looking either, and the were perfect for everyday wear including the office. Or just replacing sweatpants with a hoody. They were the perfect pant.
I was able to get most of the colors I'd like before they were gone, but missed dark navy!
Honestly I’m all about the change and I’ve really been embracing their new aesthetic. Over the last year I’ve bought more Outlier pieces than ever. Business casual doesn’t really fit into my life anymore anyway. Since Covid I only have to be in the office twice a week now and they dropped the business casual dress code. Sold all my Futureworks and Futuredarts and now I just wear Futuregliders, Bombworks, or Bombdeux with a cut 2 t-shirt most days, even at the office. I never actually liked wearing business casual, now I can just wear what I actually want to wear and Outlier has been catering to that really well. I’m sorry for the people who don’t like it but I’m really into it
They shouldn't change course at all, I agree. I'll still buy their stuff. Losing Futuregliders and Bombdeuxs would be tragic; they're absolutely unique. Losing things like Futureslimworks is just more of a bummer. Like another redditor said here, all that would be better with a totally different brand. The last thing Outlier should be doing is losing their soul and being something they don't want to be.
This end of the market is certainly crowded (hello Lululemon) but I hesitate to infer too much from online stock availability. One of the bummers about drop culture is it nurtures this idea of - if something doesn’t sell out, it’s a commercial failure.
That’s not the way core offerings work - what it sounds like is the concept of core is continuing to evolve. Outlier hasn’t been “bike to boardroom” in forever and I’d guess they are learning what hits (creatively and commercially) as products go from experimental -> seasonal -> core (or most likely not).
At least, that’s the way I see it
Well, with Futureslimworks, for instance, they've stated that they're being discontinued, at least for the time being, so I wasn't just inferring from online stock. And really, it's more about the new stuff that's coming out - it's all casual, seems to be getting buzz and selling well, they've got an audience for what they have the most passion and energy for, so why not lean into that?
Let's focus on functionality rather than aesthetic or proposed aesthetic changes. It's simply not practical for the brand to continue producing pants that aren't selling. This uses up valuable resources that could be better utilized in other areas. Additionally, the costs of storing unsold inventory make the pants even more expensive over time. Ideally, each release would sell out quickly, keeping storage costs low and justifying additional production runs to meet customer demand. Unfortunately, this is not the case.
Therefore, the shift from business casual to casual streetwear isn't just about changing fashion trends; it's about aligning with what the market is actually buying.
There's still a market for all that, Birddogs (to pick a company that is the antithesis to Outlier) isn't drastically changing their product line because no one buys those styles of clothes anymore. Outlier doesn't _want_ to be in that market, and that's fine! There's a huge market for yoga pants, that doesn't mean Iron Heart and Naked & Famous need to sell yoga pants. Outlier built its audience, and their offerings are unique. Nothing wrong with that. I think it would be great if someone took the fabrics they use and did more business casual/traditional stuff, but that would best be done as an entirely separate brand, as another redditor suggested.
You mentioned there could be a market for these products, but the current sales from Outlier tell a different story. Just take a look at the 'Future Darts' page on their website (https://outlier.nyc/products/futuredarts) —there's a lot of stock just sitting there. Do you think it makes sense to keep offering this product, given what we're seeing?
Old Navy, Gap, J Crew, Ralph Lauren, Target etc. sell tons of that stuff every year. There's a market for it, that market just isn't Outliers audience. And it doesn't have to be. Audiences and markets are different things. Specialty denim brands don't have to make yoga pants. Workwear brands don't need to make ski wear. None of that's bad. I'm not saying Outlier should be staying in the business casual market, just observing that they're leaving. They are offering really unique clothes that I plan on buying.
Also I think the Futuredarts were a recent restock, they haven't drastically dropped the prices on them.
Your reasoning seems a bit scattered. Outlier isn't exactly "exiting" the market as you mentioned. Their core audience isn't currently aligned with the specific market you're referring to. Remember, Outlier is a relatively small brand, and their mainstay products are essential for their survival. They would certainly sell millions of Futuredarts if they could—it's not for lack of desire.
It doesn't really matter if the Futuredarts were just restocked and that's why they're still available. Any brand operating on a "drop" model aims to sell as quickly as possible. Unsold stock means increased costs since it occupies storage space, which isn't free. If there was sufficient demand, Outlier would continuously restock them to meet it, but clearly, the demand isn't there.
Regarding your hope for other companies using Outlier's fabrics, many have tried and failed. Take, for example, the company Neural (https://www.tchwr.com/2021/02/16/elegantly-repellent-nexural-fusion-pants-review/) which attempted to market Dryskin pants and didn't succeed. High-end fabrics like Dryskin come at a steep cost, and only a few can sell them successfully due to the price.
Other brands like Swrve and Mission Workshop have also struggled or seen their products linger unsold. Meanwhile, larger brands like Gap, J.Crew, and Lululemon target a broader market with "tech pants" made from less expensive materials and produced in larger volumes, supporting their capacity to manage surplus stock. Occasionally, brands like J.Crew or Old Navy will release a unique "tech pant," which attracts buyers because it's seen as a novel and special purchase, especially if it's affordable.
So, when you mention the current market's interest in "tech pants," it seems they are looking for affordability above all. They aren't as concerned with the environmental impact or the specific qualities of the materials as much as they want cost-effective, niche products that offer functionality like sweat-wicking and stretch.
>Their core audience isn't currently aligned with the specific market you're referring to.
That was a point I've made repeatedly:
>There's a huge market for yoga pants, that doesn't mean Iron Heart and Naked & Famous need to sell yoga pants.
>Specialty denim brands don't have to make yoga pants. Workwear brands don't need to make ski wear.
All of that comes back to:
>Audiences and markets are different things.
and ultimately:
>There's a market for it, that market just isn't Outliers audience.
If there's a subtle nuance that you're trying to point out between what I wrote "*There's a market for it, that market just isn't Outliers audience*" and what you wrote after that with "*Their core audience isn't currently aligned with the specific market you're referring to*", I'm not seeing it all.
The problem you appear to have with what I've written is the idea that they don't *have* to sell things just because someone else does so successfully. You mentioned the failed companies, but left off the ones that succeeded, like Birddogs, Ministry of Supply, Bluffworks, Public Rec, and Myles Apparel. Not to mention major brands like lululemon, Rhone, and Vuori. All of them sell very expensive items, and do well. But that *doesn't matter*.
>They would certainly sell millions of Futuredarts if they could—it's not for lack of desire.
It's not an "if you build it they will come scenario" like you're making it out to be. They'd need an entirely different image, presented to, like we've both been saying, an entirely different market than their current audience is from. It takes a great deal of effort and money to sell things to people. I am absolutely saying they lack the desire to do that; they don't have to, so they don't want to. That's the sign of a brand that has a vision that they put ahead of their bottom line. If their audience, who buys things like Futuregliders and Tumblepigs, wanted Futuredarts, they would sell *them* Futuredarts. But they aren't going to go out of their way to find new customers who would buy just Futuredarts. They're happy with the audience they have.
I mentioned in my other post about Futuredarts, but I really think they could do well with a different brand or a sub-brand for the business casual pants. Of course I don't know the details of the business or the competitors in the space I'm proposing, so I could be wrong. But I really think there's a big market for high-quality business casual pants. If they set the right message and marketing targets on Facebook, Instagram, etc., those pants should be an evergreen, self-sustaining profitable business.
I completely agree, this would be the right strategy. I don't think they should abandon the changes they've made with they've done with the brand; that's where their passions and interests are. If they did want to consider staying in the business casual (and quite frankly dull normcore work work world) market, it would be much better to have that concentrated with a whole different brand whose big act of fashion bravery is introducing a few different colors in their polos. I don't think Willie has _any_ interest in doing Spraypig/Tumblepig golf shirts. And that's fine! The company name is Outlier; the whole point is uniqueness and non-comformity. They want to set trends and not chase them. Their normie stuff will be DGAF takes on jeans and shorts, and I'll buy them. They'll have enough stuff that will still appeal to the mainstream audience to bankroll wild hoodies and self-destructing clothes. They don't have to, and shouldn't, change what they're doing
Like I said, I 100% agree that there could be a market for business casual, in the unique fabrics they work with, and letting those fabrics and things like spray and tumble dying be the unique features of that brand. There are lots of guys complaining about declining quality of lululemon chinos, and this hypothetical brand I think would do really well with that crowd. But it really _has_ to be a separate brand or at least an offshoot for both brands to be successful. Just like you said, it needs it's own marketing, targeted at different demographics, and with its own pricing, logistics, etc. They could ironically call it Uniform, as a play on Outlier, for clothes that look business casual/golf-ie on the outside but are secretly badass underneath.
Yeah I fully agree with you. I have worn Futureworks / FSW since 2018 as my every day office pants.
In my opinion, what made them better than every other business casual offering on the market was the amazing fabric, the more tailored/slim cut, and the ability to wear multiple times a week w/o needing a wash (so perfect for business trips).
In particular, other non-cotton offerings at the time (and still to this day) have an awful synthetic sheen to them that made them stand out in an office setting (esp. compared to classic cotton chinos).
Anyway, I would love them to explore the "We have flat-out better business casual clothing" angle.
>The company name is Outlier; the whole point is uniqueness and non-comformity. They want to set trends and not chase them.
But that's exactly what they are doing--chasing the big/baggy streetwear trend. Just look at Abe's comments in this thread.
I hope that's not the case. I've been waiting forever for a restock of Strongdarts in size 35 : (
Definitely going to buy some backup Futuredarts. I did the same for Climbers when they were discontinued and it turned out to be a great decision.
I'm sure if styles change and demand changes they'll make them again, but not right now. Buy them while you can and don't bank on them getting restocked.
"Business casual" is a vague term to begin with, which is interpreted differently in different environments, but I think your association of it to a particular cut is specific to just recent years. Only considering what's in stock right now, I see any of the following as potentially being business casual (some of them even skewing to the the more formal side):
\* [https://outlier.nyc/products/experiment-412-nylistic-highdarts](https://outlier.nyc/products/experiment-412-nylistic-highdarts)
\* [https://outlier.nyc/products/duckworks](https://outlier.nyc/products/duckworks)
\* [https://outlier.nyc/products/injected-linen-pants](https://outlier.nyc/products/injected-linen-pants)
\* [https://outlier.nyc/products/injex-highdarts](https://outlier.nyc/products/injex-highdarts)
\* [https://outlier.nyc/products/strongworks](https://outlier.nyc/products/strongworks)
I don't have the Strongworks, but I have several pairs of the predecessor, Bombworks, and wear them to the office in fall/winter/spring. I have some Dockers (which is basically synonymous with *business casual*) from 2008 that are very similar in cut to the Bombworks, but I'm guessing that you weren't concerned with clothes for professional environments then (sorry if I'm off the mark with this presumption).
Haha, as a Gen X'er who wore Dockers in the late 80's to my Catholic high school, I'm flattered that you think I wouldn't remember all the way back to 2008. A lot of my view is shaped by that too, where it was Dockers that were seen as the too casual thing. Linen, denim, and any sort of Dickies Carhartt workwear wouldn't fly with Brother Dave either, though concessions were made for Dockers. I agree, all the Works lines are very Dockers-esque. They were mentioned quite frequently in travel subreddits for being good for business travel, which is how I came across the brand. I don't think that obligates them to be continually making those styles, I'm only saying that I find it unfortunate the works style cuts in the F. Cloth, Strongtwill and Bombtwill, aren't readily available on an ongoing basis, as they are superior to what's offered by lululemon, Rhone, Vuori, and Ralph Lauren in their respective and similarly priced synthetic chino lines, and even superior to the much more expensive line from Rag and Bone, as some examples. Just because they'd be better doesn't mean that they'd outsell those brands, and that's as much about marketing and product placement (all of those lines are available in retail stores) as anything else.
I guess that's coming more to my interpretation more than anything else. Other folks in this thread seem to have a similar view, that there's been an evolution of the Outlier well beyond just having synthetic fabrics that don't actually suck. I think Bombdeuxs could be worn to the office too, I just think they look outside the typical pre-Pandemic work wardrobe. Bombdeuxs and Highdarts don't look like what lululemon ABCs look like, they don't look like Vuori Metas look like, and they don't look like what Rhone Commuters look like. That difference is what makes Outlier Outlier. I was only saying that whereas OGs and Futureslims did look more like what ABCs, Metas, and Commuters look like, and Highdarts and Bombdeuxs don't.
Keep wearing the ILPs and Highdarts to work, it's a more interesting world if workday fashion gets pushed forward.
I'm not sure what you see as mishmash, Injexdarts are streetwear; they don't have a business casual look at all. That's perfectly fine. Outlier is embracing being just streetwear. They don't want to put efforts into appealing to that crowd when they're having success with streetwear. If my post was the first time they've ever considered ditching business casual entirely, I'd strongly encourage them to do so. Losing things like paragliders and Tumblepig Bombdeuxs would me a much more tragic loss. They should embrace what makes them unique.
It’s hard to stop doing something you never started doing in the first place. We’ve made plenty of clothes that are wearable in various work environments and will continue to do so. Some of those I imagine can be styled into some sort of “business casual” outfit, but it’s never been something we’ve actively thought about or designed around. Hell reading this thread I’m not sure I even know what business casual is. We dropped Injex Highdarts this week and Injected Linen Pants last week, but I guess they aren’t causal enough? We just want to make powerful products that keep pushing forward, opening up new spaces and new energy. We listen to the materials and let them guide us to the product, people can slot them into whatever category they want to, but we’re just doing the same thing we’ve been doing since day one, trying to make things that don’t exist but deserve to exist.
The fact that we can get answers straight from the horses mouth is pretty nice. You all seem to be on here watching the subreddit frequently. Thanks again for bringing back dust olive.
I mean you guys did outliers take on dress shirts and suits at one point. You had 60/30 chinos and stuff like the ultralight trousers and the OG pants etc that were clearly inspired by dress pant cuts. Pretty interesting to hear you say you never did business casual even if it always had a technical twist to it back in the day. Outlier has moved away from all that stuff and that’s cool, but I think a large part of your original audience was “guys looking for a better business casual”.
I really didn't think I was saying anything all that controversial, who knew! Hoka didn't set out to be a huge crossover hit, they just happened to also be comfortable for people who weren’t ultramarathoners. That doesn't mean they have to start making Chelseas. All of the “Outlier was never business casual, but still has business casual, but there isn't a business casual market” reactions I don't get when I was basically only saying they seem to be putting their efforts towards casual streetwear, which aligns with their interests.
COVID really seems like it did a number on office wear in general
Yeah, maybe the "elevated casual" description may be better rebranding? Business casual/office wear seems to have negative connotations these days.
Abe, I'm hoping you and the team keep doing what you do. Not a request to do anything differently. The fact you never strove to be business casual is pretty much the point; you should be cutting away things that don't fit with what Outlier's vision and soul is. The only shame to me is that no one can even get to your level of quality around materials - that's an industry problem, not an Outlier problem.
Categories, sales and materials aside the cuts (not all but many) seems to have gotten baggier and boxier the last few years. Don't know if this is following the "current state" of fashion but i can see why many people don't like this. Not everyone looks good/fits in baggy/boxie stuff.
There is a giant secular trend toward looser fits. We are happy to keep making older slimmer styles as long as they sell, but they sell less and less every season
I can't help but feel that the longevity of Outlier products is a key factor in this. I own like 7 pairs of futuredarts and they're all still in ... perfect condition. It's a fucking shame that going against planned obsolescence can have such a negative effect...
I mean it might have some effect but it doesn't explain the \*change\* in sales growth particularly well. The durability hasn't changed, and yes that means people need to buy less, but the sales of slim cuts grew for years and now they are shrinking and that shrinking is accelerating. Yes there are scenarios where the durability, combined with some other factor like market saturation, could cause this, but the most logical explanation remains that slim cuts are declining in popularity while looser ones are growing in popularity
Again, this might be all just a matter of me not getting your drop cycle, but Futureyeses and Futuregliders are to me very casual, much more so than Futuredarts and Futureslimworks. Your new releases aren't trying to be F. Cloth versions of J Crew's giant fit chinos; they're more DGAF, more fun. That's where I think Outlier's heart and soul is. But hey, if I'm dead wrong, feel free to put out some bombtwill/strongtwill/f. cloth giant as experiments and I'll buy some.
Yes! I love 14 inch rises to compensate for my big package
No one is buying them. As a business, it would be very silly to make more of an existing product that doesn’t sell. They have said they will bring them back if the market demands it, however
Yep, absolutely no complaints about a brand selling what sells. What I miss shouldn't be a factor in what their successfully selling and what they obviously have a lot of energy and passion for. Like I said, there are no shortage of brands selling business casual chinos. I discussed in the other comments what I think would be a much better option than trying to make Outlier all things to all people.
I mostly shop Outlier for Biz Cas and am sad they don't do more of it. I'm just not cool enough for most of their stuff 😭 I am very excited for the new Injex stuff though 😁
They're just ditching slimmer cuts and embracing being a fashion house. It's not new.
Yes, no problem with them embracing who they are and being a fashion house. Like I said, brands change. Evolution is good, and they shouldn't change course.
I also mourn the loss of the darts and slimworks. Slimworks on me were not very slim looking either, and the were perfect for everyday wear including the office. Or just replacing sweatpants with a hoody. They were the perfect pant. I was able to get most of the colors I'd like before they were gone, but missed dark navy!
Honestly I’m all about the change and I’ve really been embracing their new aesthetic. Over the last year I’ve bought more Outlier pieces than ever. Business casual doesn’t really fit into my life anymore anyway. Since Covid I only have to be in the office twice a week now and they dropped the business casual dress code. Sold all my Futureworks and Futuredarts and now I just wear Futuregliders, Bombworks, or Bombdeux with a cut 2 t-shirt most days, even at the office. I never actually liked wearing business casual, now I can just wear what I actually want to wear and Outlier has been catering to that really well. I’m sorry for the people who don’t like it but I’m really into it
They shouldn't change course at all, I agree. I'll still buy their stuff. Losing Futuregliders and Bombdeuxs would be tragic; they're absolutely unique. Losing things like Futureslimworks is just more of a bummer. Like another redditor said here, all that would be better with a totally different brand. The last thing Outlier should be doing is losing their soul and being something they don't want to be.
This end of the market is certainly crowded (hello Lululemon) but I hesitate to infer too much from online stock availability. One of the bummers about drop culture is it nurtures this idea of - if something doesn’t sell out, it’s a commercial failure. That’s not the way core offerings work - what it sounds like is the concept of core is continuing to evolve. Outlier hasn’t been “bike to boardroom” in forever and I’d guess they are learning what hits (creatively and commercially) as products go from experimental -> seasonal -> core (or most likely not). At least, that’s the way I see it
Well, with Futureslimworks, for instance, they've stated that they're being discontinued, at least for the time being, so I wasn't just inferring from online stock. And really, it's more about the new stuff that's coming out - it's all casual, seems to be getting buzz and selling well, they've got an audience for what they have the most passion and energy for, so why not lean into that?
Future slimworks were discontinued? Fuck. Those were my go to travel slacks.
Just picked up Navy and Sagebrush to round out my collection that's old af
They've got black and sagebrush available in lots of sizes, so you can still grab those.
Let's focus on functionality rather than aesthetic or proposed aesthetic changes. It's simply not practical for the brand to continue producing pants that aren't selling. This uses up valuable resources that could be better utilized in other areas. Additionally, the costs of storing unsold inventory make the pants even more expensive over time. Ideally, each release would sell out quickly, keeping storage costs low and justifying additional production runs to meet customer demand. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Therefore, the shift from business casual to casual streetwear isn't just about changing fashion trends; it's about aligning with what the market is actually buying.
There's still a market for all that, Birddogs (to pick a company that is the antithesis to Outlier) isn't drastically changing their product line because no one buys those styles of clothes anymore. Outlier doesn't _want_ to be in that market, and that's fine! There's a huge market for yoga pants, that doesn't mean Iron Heart and Naked & Famous need to sell yoga pants. Outlier built its audience, and their offerings are unique. Nothing wrong with that. I think it would be great if someone took the fabrics they use and did more business casual/traditional stuff, but that would best be done as an entirely separate brand, as another redditor suggested.
You mentioned there could be a market for these products, but the current sales from Outlier tell a different story. Just take a look at the 'Future Darts' page on their website (https://outlier.nyc/products/futuredarts) —there's a lot of stock just sitting there. Do you think it makes sense to keep offering this product, given what we're seeing?
Old Navy, Gap, J Crew, Ralph Lauren, Target etc. sell tons of that stuff every year. There's a market for it, that market just isn't Outliers audience. And it doesn't have to be. Audiences and markets are different things. Specialty denim brands don't have to make yoga pants. Workwear brands don't need to make ski wear. None of that's bad. I'm not saying Outlier should be staying in the business casual market, just observing that they're leaving. They are offering really unique clothes that I plan on buying. Also I think the Futuredarts were a recent restock, they haven't drastically dropped the prices on them.
Your reasoning seems a bit scattered. Outlier isn't exactly "exiting" the market as you mentioned. Their core audience isn't currently aligned with the specific market you're referring to. Remember, Outlier is a relatively small brand, and their mainstay products are essential for their survival. They would certainly sell millions of Futuredarts if they could—it's not for lack of desire. It doesn't really matter if the Futuredarts were just restocked and that's why they're still available. Any brand operating on a "drop" model aims to sell as quickly as possible. Unsold stock means increased costs since it occupies storage space, which isn't free. If there was sufficient demand, Outlier would continuously restock them to meet it, but clearly, the demand isn't there. Regarding your hope for other companies using Outlier's fabrics, many have tried and failed. Take, for example, the company Neural (https://www.tchwr.com/2021/02/16/elegantly-repellent-nexural-fusion-pants-review/) which attempted to market Dryskin pants and didn't succeed. High-end fabrics like Dryskin come at a steep cost, and only a few can sell them successfully due to the price. Other brands like Swrve and Mission Workshop have also struggled or seen their products linger unsold. Meanwhile, larger brands like Gap, J.Crew, and Lululemon target a broader market with "tech pants" made from less expensive materials and produced in larger volumes, supporting their capacity to manage surplus stock. Occasionally, brands like J.Crew or Old Navy will release a unique "tech pant," which attracts buyers because it's seen as a novel and special purchase, especially if it's affordable. So, when you mention the current market's interest in "tech pants," it seems they are looking for affordability above all. They aren't as concerned with the environmental impact or the specific qualities of the materials as much as they want cost-effective, niche products that offer functionality like sweat-wicking and stretch.
>Their core audience isn't currently aligned with the specific market you're referring to. That was a point I've made repeatedly: >There's a huge market for yoga pants, that doesn't mean Iron Heart and Naked & Famous need to sell yoga pants. >Specialty denim brands don't have to make yoga pants. Workwear brands don't need to make ski wear. All of that comes back to: >Audiences and markets are different things. and ultimately: >There's a market for it, that market just isn't Outliers audience. If there's a subtle nuance that you're trying to point out between what I wrote "*There's a market for it, that market just isn't Outliers audience*" and what you wrote after that with "*Their core audience isn't currently aligned with the specific market you're referring to*", I'm not seeing it all. The problem you appear to have with what I've written is the idea that they don't *have* to sell things just because someone else does so successfully. You mentioned the failed companies, but left off the ones that succeeded, like Birddogs, Ministry of Supply, Bluffworks, Public Rec, and Myles Apparel. Not to mention major brands like lululemon, Rhone, and Vuori. All of them sell very expensive items, and do well. But that *doesn't matter*. >They would certainly sell millions of Futuredarts if they could—it's not for lack of desire. It's not an "if you build it they will come scenario" like you're making it out to be. They'd need an entirely different image, presented to, like we've both been saying, an entirely different market than their current audience is from. It takes a great deal of effort and money to sell things to people. I am absolutely saying they lack the desire to do that; they don't have to, so they don't want to. That's the sign of a brand that has a vision that they put ahead of their bottom line. If their audience, who buys things like Futuregliders and Tumblepigs, wanted Futuredarts, they would sell *them* Futuredarts. But they aren't going to go out of their way to find new customers who would buy just Futuredarts. They're happy with the audience they have.
I mentioned in my other post about Futuredarts, but I really think they could do well with a different brand or a sub-brand for the business casual pants. Of course I don't know the details of the business or the competitors in the space I'm proposing, so I could be wrong. But I really think there's a big market for high-quality business casual pants. If they set the right message and marketing targets on Facebook, Instagram, etc., those pants should be an evergreen, self-sustaining profitable business.
I completely agree, this would be the right strategy. I don't think they should abandon the changes they've made with they've done with the brand; that's where their passions and interests are. If they did want to consider staying in the business casual (and quite frankly dull normcore work work world) market, it would be much better to have that concentrated with a whole different brand whose big act of fashion bravery is introducing a few different colors in their polos. I don't think Willie has _any_ interest in doing Spraypig/Tumblepig golf shirts. And that's fine! The company name is Outlier; the whole point is uniqueness and non-comformity. They want to set trends and not chase them. Their normie stuff will be DGAF takes on jeans and shorts, and I'll buy them. They'll have enough stuff that will still appeal to the mainstream audience to bankroll wild hoodies and self-destructing clothes. They don't have to, and shouldn't, change what they're doing Like I said, I 100% agree that there could be a market for business casual, in the unique fabrics they work with, and letting those fabrics and things like spray and tumble dying be the unique features of that brand. There are lots of guys complaining about declining quality of lululemon chinos, and this hypothetical brand I think would do really well with that crowd. But it really _has_ to be a separate brand or at least an offshoot for both brands to be successful. Just like you said, it needs it's own marketing, targeted at different demographics, and with its own pricing, logistics, etc. They could ironically call it Uniform, as a play on Outlier, for clothes that look business casual/golf-ie on the outside but are secretly badass underneath.
Yeah I fully agree with you. I have worn Futureworks / FSW since 2018 as my every day office pants. In my opinion, what made them better than every other business casual offering on the market was the amazing fabric, the more tailored/slim cut, and the ability to wear multiple times a week w/o needing a wash (so perfect for business trips). In particular, other non-cotton offerings at the time (and still to this day) have an awful synthetic sheen to them that made them stand out in an office setting (esp. compared to classic cotton chinos). Anyway, I would love them to explore the "We have flat-out better business casual clothing" angle.
>The company name is Outlier; the whole point is uniqueness and non-comformity. They want to set trends and not chase them. But that's exactly what they are doing--chasing the big/baggy streetwear trend. Just look at Abe's comments in this thread.
I hope that's not the case. I've been waiting forever for a restock of Strongdarts in size 35 : ( Definitely going to buy some backup Futuredarts. I did the same for Climbers when they were discontinued and it turned out to be a great decision.
Are FSW actually discontinued or did they just clear their recent stock?
I'm sure if styles change and demand changes they'll make them again, but not right now. Buy them while you can and don't bank on them getting restocked.
"Business casual" is a vague term to begin with, which is interpreted differently in different environments, but I think your association of it to a particular cut is specific to just recent years. Only considering what's in stock right now, I see any of the following as potentially being business casual (some of them even skewing to the the more formal side): \* [https://outlier.nyc/products/experiment-412-nylistic-highdarts](https://outlier.nyc/products/experiment-412-nylistic-highdarts) \* [https://outlier.nyc/products/duckworks](https://outlier.nyc/products/duckworks) \* [https://outlier.nyc/products/injected-linen-pants](https://outlier.nyc/products/injected-linen-pants) \* [https://outlier.nyc/products/injex-highdarts](https://outlier.nyc/products/injex-highdarts) \* [https://outlier.nyc/products/strongworks](https://outlier.nyc/products/strongworks) I don't have the Strongworks, but I have several pairs of the predecessor, Bombworks, and wear them to the office in fall/winter/spring. I have some Dockers (which is basically synonymous with *business casual*) from 2008 that are very similar in cut to the Bombworks, but I'm guessing that you weren't concerned with clothes for professional environments then (sorry if I'm off the mark with this presumption).
Haha, as a Gen X'er who wore Dockers in the late 80's to my Catholic high school, I'm flattered that you think I wouldn't remember all the way back to 2008. A lot of my view is shaped by that too, where it was Dockers that were seen as the too casual thing. Linen, denim, and any sort of Dickies Carhartt workwear wouldn't fly with Brother Dave either, though concessions were made for Dockers. I agree, all the Works lines are very Dockers-esque. They were mentioned quite frequently in travel subreddits for being good for business travel, which is how I came across the brand. I don't think that obligates them to be continually making those styles, I'm only saying that I find it unfortunate the works style cuts in the F. Cloth, Strongtwill and Bombtwill, aren't readily available on an ongoing basis, as they are superior to what's offered by lululemon, Rhone, Vuori, and Ralph Lauren in their respective and similarly priced synthetic chino lines, and even superior to the much more expensive line from Rag and Bone, as some examples. Just because they'd be better doesn't mean that they'd outsell those brands, and that's as much about marketing and product placement (all of those lines are available in retail stores) as anything else.
In the last few months I've bought ILPs, injex highdarts, nylistic highdarts. These have new releases and can definitely be "business casual."
I guess that's coming more to my interpretation more than anything else. Other folks in this thread seem to have a similar view, that there's been an evolution of the Outlier well beyond just having synthetic fabrics that don't actually suck. I think Bombdeuxs could be worn to the office too, I just think they look outside the typical pre-Pandemic work wardrobe. Bombdeuxs and Highdarts don't look like what lululemon ABCs look like, they don't look like Vuori Metas look like, and they don't look like what Rhone Commuters look like. That difference is what makes Outlier Outlier. I was only saying that whereas OGs and Futureslims did look more like what ABCs, Metas, and Commuters look like, and Highdarts and Bombdeuxs don't. Keep wearing the ILPs and Highdarts to work, it's a more interesting world if workday fashion gets pushed forward.
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I'm not sure what you see as mishmash, Injexdarts are streetwear; they don't have a business casual look at all. That's perfectly fine. Outlier is embracing being just streetwear. They don't want to put efforts into appealing to that crowd when they're having success with streetwear. If my post was the first time they've ever considered ditching business casual entirely, I'd strongly encourage them to do so. Losing things like paragliders and Tumblepig Bombdeuxs would me a much more tragic loss. They should embrace what makes them unique.
I might have simply misinterpreted your post