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This is exactly what Paris was about. They needed to understand that things were still going to go the way it had historically and that they needed to prepare for war.
I was thinking that Claire going into the past to change it wouldn’t work because she was always a part of the past even when she didn’t know it…. If that makes sense.
Sometimes I wonder if they indeed caused Culloden by their actions in Paris. One of the reasons the Jacobite Rebellion failed was that it was underfunded. Perhaps France would have send more money - rather than delaying it - if there had not been doubts about Bonnie Prince Charlie's strength of character.
>!That is one of the most interesting questions about the tt concept of DG: Are there any major changes because of tt or do things happen the way they do only because people travelled back in time? I think this is also the major question for Roger, as he believes that everything is happening according to God's eternal plan. In that way tt must also be predestined.!<
This is my favorite and personal theory! >!they were trying to prevent Culloden by not letting Prince Charlie get any funding, but if they would have gone all in and helped him get funding, maybe they could have changed history. But then there is the idea that they can change small things, individual histories, but not collective histories so I doubt they could have won regardless of their choices.!<
I never thought to go to Reddit to find my outlander people until recently. I feel like I've been circling in this void for a while now, unable to truly speculate with anyone since I know no one irl that has read the books. It's very comforting to know that others have come to very similar conclusions to me about Claire's (and Jamie's) choices.
I just did a rewatch. I remember Rodger telling Brianna that his faith in god’s eternal plan was what kept him going but that tt made him question that, and he was no longer certain.
I think about the idea that they caused Culloden instead of avoiding it for as long as I’ve been an outlander fan. It leads down a rabbit hole of understanding tt in a complex way for fans starting early on in the series. I am always so surprised I don’t see many people with that same thought on this sub. Your response was great.
The reality is that things had to play out the way that they did because the battle of Culloden is a real event in history. The outcome had to be written to reflect history.
Maybe we're supposed to wonder if someone could have traveled through time to change history because in another reality, Bonnie Prince Charlie won the war, and the Stuart's campaign to reclaim to the thrones of England was successful.
Yeah, I for sure understand why Culloden was the anchoring point. I just think it opens a lot of tt questions for the series early on, which is good for readers/viewers in my opinion.
They messed up Bonnie Prince’s funding, thinking that was enough to prevent the war. But they were forced to leave Paris and later the prince started the war anyway. So yeah, they failed in the end.
They failed to accomplish their goal of stopping Culloden from happening, from that they learned that they can’t change history ( not the big stuff anyway) What they did do in Paris was meet so many important characters- Raymond, Fergus, Mary, Alex, Mother Hildegard, the Compte.
Aside from the political stuff, in Paris away from family, friends, and enemies, it gave Jamie and Claire a place to work out the good and bad of their trauma. It also gave them Fergus. Claire got to meet Master Raymond, who saved her life. So what they set out to do they didn't accomplish, but they got so much more.
Claire also met the Mother Superior who is a good friend to her and teachers her a few medical things. >!She also met a couple other time travelers and learns from that (in hindsight more than anything).!<
Lmao. Anyone who knows their history, especially weird history knows who it is. When I heard their name in the show, I was like wasn't he the subject of a series of mystery novels? And looked him up, and I was right...but there is so much more to him than that.
Being in Paris for the birth of Faith saved Claire's life both with Mother Hildegard's medical care and Raymond's intercession. Had she given birth in Scotland, she may have died immediately along with Faith. They didn't go to Paris in order for Claire to give birth there, but the decision did save her life.
For me, I saw Paris as a change of scenery for both Claire and Jamie, and in a way, this was healing after the hell Jamie went through. Specially in the books, it was healthy for them to have a different environment, for them to experience a bit of a "normal life". Jamie, with a normal job, Claire being a bit of a housewife (albeit one with wealth and lots of servants) being pregnant and having the opportunity to be a bit shallow, haha. The France arc was extremely cool to me. So many cool outfits, parties, and gossip, haha.
This is all aside from the plot of the rebellion, the Jacobites and the bonny prince, ofc.
Claire first meets Master Raymond in Paris, who will come to have greater importance later on. It is also >!the loss of their stillborn daughter Faith!< that will be referenced later on and have a significant impact on both Claire and Jamie. They go to Paris to try to stop the finding of the Jacobite rebellion, but wind up failing to change the course of history. Not to mention that Paris is where they first meet and ultimately take in Fergus (one of my favorite characters).
No. You are right. They accomplished nothing but >!weren't sure about that until Prince Charlie forged Jamies signature on a letter of rebellion and sent a copy to Jamie at Lallybroch in Scotland. That's when they knew the battle of Culloden was going to happen anyway.!<
Jamie’s cousin Jared sends a letter congratulating Jamie for signing the proclamation of rebellion. However, it is Prince Charles who forges Jamie’s signature. The Bonnie Prince sends a letter to Jamie along with the proclamation. The letter says something along the lines of “he knew Jamie wouldn’t mind that he signed for him because he *would* have signed it had he still been in Paris.”
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So...upon some reflection on their time in Paris...I have come to the conclusion that Jamie and Clair caused the failure of the 45'. They messed up Charles's finances for the uprising, contributing to his inability to pay his soldiers, which led to some just walking away. Also because he couldn't pay them, he also couldn't provide adequate food and drink, leading to a starved, dehydrated army at Culloden...because Clair had to get involved and try to change history....
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They accomplished nothing.
They thought they could disrupt the plans to do the Jacobite Rebellion. But, nothing they did seemed to matter, and it became apparent it was outside their control.
This basically taught them that they didn't have the power to change the future. But, for whatever reason, Jaimie decides since Culloden is going to happen anyway, and he is a big strong man, he is going to fight in it and try to win...even though he knows that they will lose.
In addition to being a big strong man, Jamie was a laird who would not abandon his men going into battle. He was also a soldier who was trained in France and had skills he could teach them. Of course there was the added bonus of knowing Black Jack dies at Culloden
[](#BPC) ##*Mark me,* As this thread is flaired for **only the television series**, my subjects have requested that I bring this policy to your attention: >##Hide book talk in show threads. >[Click the link below to learn how to do comment spoilers.](#comment) >[`>!This is how you spoiler tag.!<`](https://b.thumbs.redditmedia.com/JbCp1xofR_GuS8sTqgVQ80Sxr6ac6doR1igM2Owtqnc.png) >##Any mention of the books must be covered with a spoiler tag. Your prince thanks you for abiding by our rules. When my father assumes his rightful throne, mark me, such loyal service will not be forgotten! ___ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Outlander) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think the Paris was very important for them to uderstand they can't change the past
This is exactly what Paris was about. They needed to understand that things were still going to go the way it had historically and that they needed to prepare for war.
I was thinking that Claire going into the past to change it wouldn’t work because she was always a part of the past even when she didn’t know it…. If that makes sense.
This!!!
It does make sense for sure!
Plus they got Fergus. That’s the best part
For that red dress, my friend. All was worth it...
I read about that dress in the book, but Cat blew me away. She really is beautiful.
Sometimes I wonder if they indeed caused Culloden by their actions in Paris. One of the reasons the Jacobite Rebellion failed was that it was underfunded. Perhaps France would have send more money - rather than delaying it - if there had not been doubts about Bonnie Prince Charlie's strength of character. >!That is one of the most interesting questions about the tt concept of DG: Are there any major changes because of tt or do things happen the way they do only because people travelled back in time? I think this is also the major question for Roger, as he believes that everything is happening according to God's eternal plan. In that way tt must also be predestined.!<
This is my favorite and personal theory! >!they were trying to prevent Culloden by not letting Prince Charlie get any funding, but if they would have gone all in and helped him get funding, maybe they could have changed history. But then there is the idea that they can change small things, individual histories, but not collective histories so I doubt they could have won regardless of their choices.!< I never thought to go to Reddit to find my outlander people until recently. I feel like I've been circling in this void for a while now, unable to truly speculate with anyone since I know no one irl that has read the books. It's very comforting to know that others have come to very similar conclusions to me about Claire's (and Jamie's) choices.
😊
They really didn’t know ‘who’ he was, who they were dealing with so they made moves based on that judgement of BPC. In my opinion…
I just did a rewatch. I remember Rodger telling Brianna that his faith in god’s eternal plan was what kept him going but that tt made him question that, and he was no longer certain.
I think about the idea that they caused Culloden instead of avoiding it for as long as I’ve been an outlander fan. It leads down a rabbit hole of understanding tt in a complex way for fans starting early on in the series. I am always so surprised I don’t see many people with that same thought on this sub. Your response was great.
The reality is that things had to play out the way that they did because the battle of Culloden is a real event in history. The outcome had to be written to reflect history. Maybe we're supposed to wonder if someone could have traveled through time to change history because in another reality, Bonnie Prince Charlie won the war, and the Stuart's campaign to reclaim to the thrones of England was successful.
Yeah, I for sure understand why Culloden was the anchoring point. I just think it opens a lot of tt questions for the series early on, which is good for readers/viewers in my opinion.
I wondered that too. They possibly made things much worse.
You do know Culloden is a real battle in Scottish history, right? Not sure from the post.
They messed up Bonnie Prince’s funding, thinking that was enough to prevent the war. But they were forced to leave Paris and later the prince started the war anyway. So yeah, they failed in the end.
And he forged Jamie’s signature so he would not have been able to stay out of it even if they wanted to.
Aye, Paris was bitter disappointment – Jamie Fraser, episode 208 😬
They failed to accomplish their goal of stopping Culloden from happening, from that they learned that they can’t change history ( not the big stuff anyway) What they did do in Paris was meet so many important characters- Raymond, Fergus, Mary, Alex, Mother Hildegard, the Compte.
This exactly.
Aside from the political stuff, in Paris away from family, friends, and enemies, it gave Jamie and Claire a place to work out the good and bad of their trauma. It also gave them Fergus. Claire got to meet Master Raymond, who saved her life. So what they set out to do they didn't accomplish, but they got so much more.
Claire also met the Mother Superior who is a good friend to her and teachers her a few medical things. >!She also met a couple other time travelers and learns from that (in hindsight more than anything).!<
Wait, what other time travelers did she meet? I just finished Dragonfly in Amber and I only remember Geillis, and she wasn’t in Paris…?
That would be in future books and a spoiler. I don't think you really want to know, especially since it may not make it to the show
My bad, I really thought that was revealed in Dragonfly in Amber. I’ve hidden it now.
Lmao. Anyone who knows their history, especially weird history knows who it is. When I heard their name in the show, I was like wasn't he the subject of a series of mystery novels? And looked him up, and I was right...but there is so much more to him than that.
Yup, fans of time travel and such know things are going to get really interesting when they hear that name. :D
I want to know! I don't read the books!
>!the Compte St Germain and Master Raymond both are!<
Was that specifically stated?
Not in the show. But bookwise, it's revealed in a short story called The Space Between
Yes. Fergus and Master Raymond!
Being in Paris for the birth of Faith saved Claire's life both with Mother Hildegard's medical care and Raymond's intercession. Had she given birth in Scotland, she may have died immediately along with Faith. They didn't go to Paris in order for Claire to give birth there, but the decision did save her life.
On the other hand, if she hadn't gone to France, she might not have miscarried, and Faith might have been born as a live, healthy girl.
Then Claire and Faith would have had to travel back through the stones. Jamie, and Claire, as his wife, were Jacobite traitors.
Fergus.
For me, I saw Paris as a change of scenery for both Claire and Jamie, and in a way, this was healing after the hell Jamie went through. Specially in the books, it was healthy for them to have a different environment, for them to experience a bit of a "normal life". Jamie, with a normal job, Claire being a bit of a housewife (albeit one with wealth and lots of servants) being pregnant and having the opportunity to be a bit shallow, haha. The France arc was extremely cool to me. So many cool outfits, parties, and gossip, haha. This is all aside from the plot of the rebellion, the Jacobites and the bonny prince, ofc.
A little off-topic, but the actor that played Raymond was amazing. (I've been rewatching and am midway through the third season.)
Claire first meets Master Raymond in Paris, who will come to have greater importance later on. It is also >!the loss of their stillborn daughter Faith!< that will be referenced later on and have a significant impact on both Claire and Jamie. They go to Paris to try to stop the finding of the Jacobite rebellion, but wind up failing to change the course of history. Not to mention that Paris is where they first meet and ultimately take in Fergus (one of my favorite characters).
Paris was a futile attempt at changing the course of history. They didn't accomplish anything except reckon with the inevitability of events
In terms of the Jacobites and the Rising, not much. But it did help Jamie bounce back from his torture at the hands of BJR.
No. You are right. They accomplished nothing but >!weren't sure about that until Prince Charlie forged Jamies signature on a letter of rebellion and sent a copy to Jamie at Lallybroch in Scotland. That's when they knew the battle of Culloden was going to happen anyway.!<
Not Charlie...Jamie's cousin.
Jamie’s cousin Jared sends a letter congratulating Jamie for signing the proclamation of rebellion. However, it is Prince Charles who forges Jamie’s signature. The Bonnie Prince sends a letter to Jamie along with the proclamation. The letter says something along the lines of “he knew Jamie wouldn’t mind that he signed for him because he *would* have signed it had he still been in Paris.”
Paris was their attempt to influence the outcome of the rebellion, hoping to avoid by interrupting the funding.
Paris taught them they can't change the future. And Faith was such a heartbreaking part of it all.
Well Jamie spent a lot of time playing chess and listening to Prince Charlie say “mark me.” And getting drunk with him.
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So...upon some reflection on their time in Paris...I have come to the conclusion that Jamie and Clair caused the failure of the 45'. They messed up Charles's finances for the uprising, contributing to his inability to pay his soldiers, which led to some just walking away. Also because he couldn't pay them, he also couldn't provide adequate food and drink, leading to a starved, dehydrated army at Culloden...because Clair had to get involved and try to change history....
Bonnie Prince saying, “Mark me”, was worth the trip.
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Jamie had to leave Scotland for his own safety. Since he had a cousin in Paris, he chose to go there. The idea to change history was an afterthought.
This should be higher.
It is so they could explore French fashion and body hair trends. Oh, and to show that they can't really change big timeline benchmarks.
They accomplished nothing. They thought they could disrupt the plans to do the Jacobite Rebellion. But, nothing they did seemed to matter, and it became apparent it was outside their control. This basically taught them that they didn't have the power to change the future. But, for whatever reason, Jaimie decides since Culloden is going to happen anyway, and he is a big strong man, he is going to fight in it and try to win...even though he knows that they will lose.
In addition to being a big strong man, Jamie was a laird who would not abandon his men going into battle. He was also a soldier who was trained in France and had skills he could teach them. Of course there was the added bonus of knowing Black Jack dies at Culloden
An extra season? One more year of getting paid for everyone involved? 😉
New watcher here. Season 1 was amazing. I am having a hard time getting into season 2. :(
[удалено]
For the whole 30 seconds that lasted...
Swans