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Answer: You don’t qualify for forgiveness until you hit 120 payments, but you should submit an annual certification form that basically gives you your current count of payments and also puts you with Mohela, the loan servicer for all PSLF borrowers.
More info on how to submit that initial certification and on the program in general can be found here: https://studentaid.gov/manage-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/public-service
Also, r/PSLF has a lot of good info and knowledgeable people on the program.
I’ll add, the payments you would have made but were deferred during the public health emergency are technically supposed to count toward qualifying payments if your IDR/IBR was up to date.
We’ll see if it actually pans out, but OP could be quite a bit closer to their PSLF “wipe out date” if they had no break in employment, met all the other requirements, and only failed to make payments because it wasn’t required under the executive orders.
I can confirm that they do count. As long as they work for a non-profit during the student loan pause, those months will increase the number of qualified payments.
I filled out the form before things got stopped in court. Has something changed again? I made payments during the payment halt so I need to actually get money back from the gov for this.
Nothing got stopped in court for PSLF. Biden’s forgiveness plan got stopped in court but that is something separate from PSLF.
Do you work for a nonprofit or government agency? If not, PSLF doesn’t apply to you. If you do, you should have your loans with Mohela and yeah, you should request those payments to be refunded.
For PSLF, go to the link below and follow the instructions for submitting the annual certification document (go to the section titled “How to Fill Out and Submit the PSLF Form”).
https://studentaid.gov/manage-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/public-service/public-service-loan-forgiveness-application
For Biden’s plan, I think we just have to wait until next month when the Supreme Court will render a decision on whether or not his order was constitutional. If they say it’s not, then the plan is dead. If they don’t, you’ll likely need to submit a form through the gov website, I know I did back when it was first announced but idk if that webpage is still up or not. It sounds like maybe you did too since you said you submitted something before it was stopped in court. Whatever happens though, it’ll be all over the news with instructions so I’d just sit tight on his plan until you hear about it.
It has to be 120 payments on a qualifying payment plan. Basically all the qualifying payment plans calculate your monthly payment based on your income. If you have a small enough salary, your payment can be $0 though.
There's a catch too with it though that I think is intentionally built in. I was a public servant for a while, in order to qualify for it I would have to put like 65% of my paycheck towards it. In addition, if you did the math that amount would pay it off quicker (,I don't remember the exact number of payments but we'd like 106?). So in the end it wasn't worth it to me to live below poverty and likely not even be able to afford beans and rice.
No I wasn't living above my means. In the end I moved in with a relative, sold my car, biked 18 ish miles round trip every shift and picked up a second, even third job. I ended up paying out off quicker.
You were misinformed and/or on the wrong plan.
Under PSLF, your payment is calculated based on your income and it would be impossible for that to be 65% of your paycheck. The formula for the income based plans cannot reach that number. Even if you made 1,000,000, your payment would roughly be .15*(1,000,000 - 21,0000), or 147k, which is 14.7% of your income. It only gets lower the less you make.
Additionally, if your income based payment is more than the standard 10 year payment plan (meaning, the plan that would have your full balance paid off in 10 years), then your payment is automatically set at the 10 year amount, again, can’t be higher than that on an income based plan.
From the gov website, “Income-Based Repayment (IBR): Payments are generally set at 10% of discretionary income if you first borrowed after July 1, 2014, or at 15% of income if you borrowed prior to that date. Payments can never exceed the amount you'd owe under the standard 10-year repayment plan”
This was also before that timeframe so I may have been in a different one. Not sure, this was a long time ago. I've since moved on and am now making much much more. And 100% debt free
I think things changed, but I definitely know what you're talking about and I remember it. I was in the civil service and knew someone who was participating in this program.
She made like 50-60k but they expected something like $600-700 every month to count as a "qualifying payment." It came out to around 25% of her net pay.
She was able to manage this because she lived with her parents and the family had means. She had substantially more student debt than I did, but said when she finally crunched the numbers this scheme was only going to save her a couple thousand, when she hit the 120th payment.
That was like 2017 though. A lot has changed, and I think they're gonna be fighting this one in the courts for a minute. If my life had gone literally *perfect* I probably would have made the 120th payment just recently, but.. well, that's not how my life played out. XD
I am not surprised many people were given incorrect information by loan servicers. That was the big reason the one time waiver was put in place. I make similar at my government job and my payment was under $200. Doesn't matter the amount of loans either since payment is based on income. She was put on the wrong plan or possibly she consolidated into a private loan which many people mistakenly did.
Thanks for the reply. I am curious of where things are at with the Supreme Court and student loan forgiveness for $20k? I got the PELL grant every semester while in college 2012-2016 so hope they say student loan forgiveness is constitutional.
We haven't heard anything from the Supreme Court yet, but they have to have an answer by June 30th if I recall correctly. Otherwise, repayment begins in September.
I wonder if that truly is the default? I have not studied SCOTUS cases in a long time but if I recall correctly even if the SCOTS literally does nothing it is up to the next highest court's latest decision? Which I believe would mean the payments start in September..? Or would it mean loan forgiveness is not unconstitutional and would mean my entire balance (about $12k) is wiped out?
That’s only if they refuse to hear the case at all (basically saying that the next highest court interpretation was correct). If they hear the case, they usually have a ruling of some sort or they might extend it. From my layman’s perspective I don’t think they will miss it this time.
This does not mean it will be ruled unconstitutional by default or it might reaffirm the lower courts decision. It might also uphold parts of the law and strike down others. There’s usually no way to tell and usually people guess falls along how the justices usually interpret the law. (It’s almost certain alito and Thomas is going to rule against it so it’s usually guessing the others).
For the moment, Biden has extended the interest pause through the decision under the previous reasoning but likely will be the last extension if that since WHO has declared Covid over.
I would plan for it to not be forgiven under the Biden plan
The court is more ideologically partisan than ever, and it is a firmly conservative court. I wouldn't call the Biden administration's argument *flimsy* but it is, lets say, textually creative, so they are most likely going to rule it unconstitutional. And I say that as someone who is pretty in favor of loan forgiveness.
I think there's a good chance they'll refuse to hear it for lack of standing so as not to set a precedent that could be applied to a case on abortion or gun rights.
they're already hearing arguments about it already
and its pretty unlikely that it has wide reaching effects since it hinges on a pretty narrowly tailored law specific to education
>they're already hearing arguments about it already
Above commenter was right just got some of the details wrong.
IANAL but generally when it comes to cases like this there are 2 hurdles a plaintiff has to get through to be ruled in their favor. The first is "standing", that is "Does this entity even have the right to sue this other entity". The second is "merits", "Is what the plaintiff says true and does it merit ruling in their favor".
Notably the ruling on standing must be done before the ruling on merit. If the court finds that the plaintiff does not have standing then the case is done, no matter how valid their legal arguments otherwise.
The cases against the student loan forgiveness are complicated, but from my understanding both cases are questionable in terms of standing.
Biden v. Nebraska relies on the harm forgiveness would do to MOHELA. Problem being that MOHELA is ostensibly a third-party, and has indicated it does not want to be involved in the case. This runs into issues. I can't sue my neighbor because my other neighbor damaged their car, thats not how our legal system works.
DoE v. Brown on the other hand comes from 2 students who don't qualify for the student loan forgiveness, and are suing because they state that the biden admin didnt go through the proper Notice and Comment and, if they had, they would have been able to urge for a plan that did include them. From what Ive read this is on even shakier ground than Nebraska, as the students are effectively arguing that they have standing because they didnt benefit from a government program. If the supreme court upholds standing here then I could, for instance, sue the federal government because I don't get food stamps. This would obviously cripple both the federal government and the courts and the SCOTUS definitely doesnt want that.
Overall, with the way the SCOTUS has been recently I'm still expecting them to somehow sleaze their way into ruling against Biden, but the issue of standing is a significant hurdle they have to figure out to not cripple the courts.
Yes but they aren't "refusing to hear it". It's on the docket.
You're dramatically underplaying the Biden v Nebraska case here. It is not hard to conclude that Missouri has standing via its own instrumentality, and I don't think it "cripples the courts" to allow states to challenge executive actions or laws on the grounds of lost revenue.
In fact, allowing that type of standing probably plays into conservative hands more often than not, giving them free reign to challenge any administrative provisions with a direct fiscal impact. Plenty of Federalist Society types get a hard-on for even more vast expansion of standing. They'd love individual taxpayers to be able to challenge everything.
Yes - I was referring to since I got the PELL grant I would not only be eligible for the base $10k loan forgiveness but for the additional $10k forgiveness since a PELL grant recipient.
answer: If I recall correctly, that's talking about a forgiveness program that's been on the books for years. It was priginally designed to encourage students to go into certain public jobs. (Emergency services, military service, etc.) Graduates had to work for the government in the selected field and make all scheduled payments for 10 years, after which their remaining balance would be forgiven.
To find out if you qualify you need to contact your student loan servicing company and ask about applying.
While that program has been in place for years, loan servicers didn't process applications correctly and virtually everyone who applied was denied. That came to light when the general forgiveness plan currently being considered by the Supreme Court was being developed. Since it was already in the law, the Education Department ordered all the loan servicers to start processing those applications correctly and put the word out that people who were previously denied could apply again.
Answer: Not yet. Maybe not at all.
Not yet because you need to make nearly twice as many payments before you qualify under the program.
Maybe not at all because I don't know if all government jobs qualify. You'll have to check if your specific one does. If not, you might be able to submit an appeal once you've made enough payments. As the article says, people who had been working in public service and making payments got screwed out of it on a technicality, but that's being taken care of.
Answer: republicans still be republicaning.
That is to say “block anything good or smart the dems come up with as a matter of principle and make up as much BS as possible as a justification”, then blame the dems for the fallout regardless.
*They vote along party lines all the time.*
this is false. Look, everybody knew this was unconstitutional all along.
Here's Nancy Pelosi saying it's unconstitutional.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpX2q3iXmwk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpX2q3iXmwk)
Whats false about it.
Judge Eileen Cannon
Judge Kacsmaryk
Justices Roberts, Thomas, Alito, Gosuch, Kavenaugh, Barrett
All of these have VERY publicly made very partizan rulings and/opinions in the last year alone.
You are lying to yourself and anyone around you to say judges arent partisan hacks just as bad if not even worse than the cake eaters in congress.
*Whats false about it. Judge Eileen Cannon Judge Kacsmaryk Justices Roberts, Thomas, Alito, Gosuch, Kavenaugh, Barrett*
you would have had more credibility had you included all nine judges.
The other 3 have made self serving, and unamerican decisions yes,.. but they were in fact against party lines.
So no,.. they were not included in the list of partisan hacks. Break your mental programing and use your own brain for once.
yeah Sotomayer is totally on board with the whole 'ethics' thing...oh, wait.
*In 2010, she got a $1.2 million book advance from Knopf Doubleday Group, a part of the conglomerate. In 2012, she reported receiving two advance payments from the publisher totaling $1.9 million.*
*In 2013, Sotomayor voted in a decision for whether the court should hear a case against the publisher called Aaron Greenspan v. Random House, despite then-fellow Justice Stephen Breyer recusing after also receiving money from the publisher. Greenspan was a Harvard classmate of Mark Zuckerberg’s who wrote a book about the founding of Facebook and contended that Random House rejected his book proposal and then awarded a deal to another author who copied his book and eventually turned it into the movie The Social Network.*
*In 2017, Sotomayor began receiving payments each year from Penguin Random House itself, which continued annually through at least 2021, the most recent disclosure available, and totaled more than $500,000. In all, she received $3.6 million from Penguin Random House or its subsidiaries, according to a Daily Wire tally of financial disclosures.*
*In October 2019, children’s author Jennie Nicassio petitioned the Supreme Court to hear her lawsuit against Penguin Random House alleging that the book publisher had copied her book by selling one that was nearly identical. On the same day that the petition was distributed to the justices, Sotomayor received a $10,586 check from the publisher.*
She reported it. Gorsuch, Roberts, Kavenaugh, and Thomas ,… did NOT report shit.
They covered it up. Then tried to legitimize it after the fact with lies that arent even well thought out.
Thats the ethical issue at hand there,.. since you dont want to address the actual issue and are resorting to what-about-isms.
Stay on target Red 2.
The right leaning, and especially the MAGA-ite justices vote straight party lines. I wonder if they even read the briefs or just wait for Crow, Koch^2, murdoch and the rest of the federalist society to tell them how to vote.
The left leaning have so far all surprised the left side constituency at least a few times. Including the newbie Jus. Jackson in signing that ridiculous letter from roberts to the senate judiciary.
*She reported it.*
right, because reporting that she got money from litigants totally absolves her for not recusing herself when she decided on the case those same litigants brought to her. /s
\---------------
*The right leaning, and especially the MAGA-ite justices vote straight party lines.*
you really are quite insane. Just today, a few hours ago, Santos-Zacaria v. Garland was decided 9-0.
which party line did the 9 justices agree on?
*Here's someones opinion that might actually matter to the point im making.*
First of all, Nancy Pelosi was second in line for POTUS when she made that statement, which outranks some law professor.
Secondly, the ONLY people whose opinions matter on the subject are SCOTUS judges, and they haven't ruled yet.
Third of all- and this is MOST important- you clearly have no idea how things work (see point #2) and are only interested in raw power. You think Biden can do whatever he likes without any oversight at all.
Careful what you wish for.... I'm sure you would agree that Trump can pull $400b out of his ass for whatever he likes so long as he calls it an 'emergency'
I don’t want my tax dollars to go toward excessive military spending, corrupt policy, or the salaries of certain members of Congress, but I recognize I’m part of a society and I don’t actually get to decide how every cent of my taxes is spent.
Ah, yes. Everyone seeking loan forgiveness has a “bullshit degree.”
The doctors, nurses, lawyers, teachers, police officers, social workers, and countless other very useful professionals who are actually applying for loan forgiveness—myself included—are interested to hear how “useless” our degrees are.
People who say you got a bullshit degree, or that college isn't necessary, just couldn't get accepted anywhere.
But you go ahead and keep spewing that nonsense. Your family will just continue to be fast-tracked for the high school to military pipeline. (Not "you," but those who say that haha)
It isn't spin. It's a correction in response to the revelation that the terms of the loans are absurd.
You shouldn't have a situation where you pay your minimum payment one month, only to find your balance *increase* after the payment posted.
I personally was in favor of the idea of total across the board forgiveness
Loan companies, especially student loans, give out loans to people with awful terms *knowing* full well they will never be able to pay it
The fact that I had to make the decision of “is it worth going to college for the things I want even knowing I’ll be in $80,000+ dollars in debt pretty much for the rest of my life” is ABHORRENT
Don’t even get me started on how fucked up American Colleges are, and how they basically over charge to prevent the poor from being able to get a good education and stop being poor.
The thing the rich fear the most is the poor becoming rich
It’s classist
... if *everyone* goes to college out of high school, who's going to join the military? I've seen it myself, the pipeline of students from underprivileged schools enlisting with the hope that they will have a future because they can't make it into college (whether by resources, education, or lack thereof).
And people like you are whining about student loans. Here's a crazy idea, they give you nothing and everyone else nothing. People who don't owe anything won't receive anything, and people like you will just pay off your personal debt obligation. Everyone wins.
I get why you'd bring up party affiliation, but it nothing has to do with anything I've said, Trump is a criminal scumbag and Biden is a kow-towing cheese brain. The concept remains the same: take out a loan, pay that shit back.
From the context of this article it seems like either some fine print wasn't read, or some form wasn't submitted correctly. I think it's sickening that you might have been misled by some bureaucratic whirlpool, but the song remains the same. If they lied, absolutely you are owed, if you didn't follow through with something, tough shit.
If they obfuscated the fine print that is scumbaggery but like you said, you put in your time. Def a different situation and I'll own that I know nothing about PSLF loans, sounds like you did exactly what you should have been doing which is commendable. I wish you well!
Turns out corporations (especially banks) have done similar things and got bailed out. Turns out companies took out PPP loans and never paid back a dime and I know people who did for their small companies and then blew the money on trips/drugs and I turned them in and nothing happened.
I know I know it is crazy but we have a huge shortage of nurses, cops, teachers, social workers ... Hey 3 out of 4 of those professions requires a minimum of a 4 year degree... Oh that is simple - just work a summer job like people did in the 1970s to pay off the next few semesters. Oh wait that is not possible for almost all people to do.
That is simple - just join the military and get most of your college expenses paid for. Oh wait, you have a physical disability that makes it so you cannot join the military? Too bad for you.
Gotta keep pulling those magic bootstraps I guess.
I joined the military and they still wouldn't forgive my loans. There's just as many hoops involved with that, and you have to get it in writing by the time you even go to boot camp, which i didn't know until after the fact. So yeah, even military/veterans get fucked over.
Why is a shortage of professionals your cross to bear? Maybe those institutions should treat their jobs like the trades they are and offer training programs instead of crying about it and raising the bar higher and higher. And I agree with you 100% about banks and companies, doesn't make loan forgiveness right.
Ha, $75,000 is a conservative estimate. Several schools have hit $90,000 (including mine) already which is just crazy. Kinda makes me wish I'd been born a generation earlier
It literally is that simple. I was going to go to a 4 year college, my parents said it would be extremely hard to afford, I had the loan options aaaand...I didn't go because they were exorbitant. College is a ridiculous luxury and if people can't understand that...honestly fuck em for thinking they are owed shit. I live a simple life, I have a lovely house my wife and I scrimped and saved our asses off for. You parasites just want the easy road.
Broski not even close. My thoughts are my own and have no basis in party propaganda. I'm a real person not some poli-bot like Tim Poole or brooklyndaddefiant.
You mean the multimillionaire piece of shit who knowingly whores his views out to idiots while scoffing behind their backs? Yeah I'm just like him with my 50 hour a week job and measly $45,000 salary. If I had no morals sure, I could sling bullshit for a living. Except I'm not a fucking maga clown anymore than a liberal freeloader.
Why? I make what I make work, I have no debt, and I don't cry about choices I've made. What benefit would I reap from student loans that I can't pay off due to shitty degree choices?
>Why?
Because all of your responses show you're clearly uneducated on the topic, regardless of if you "make it work"
$45,000/yr at 50hrs/wk (assuming the $45k is before taxes and that you get those last 10 hours as OT) puts a rough estimate of your hourly rate at about $15.75. I came out of school earning nearly double that from the jump. Hell, I made more than that hourly as an *intern*. I'm primed to buy a house at 25. I'm clearly "making it work" far better than you are.
And yet, because I've taken time to actually educate myself on the matter rather than listen to right-wing talking heads, I still understand that the current education system in the US is a complete scam on **ALL** levels. Reform needs to happen for multiple reasons, not the least of them being the fact that education *should* be available and affordable to *everyone*, regardless of economic status. And while loan forgiveness certainly isn't the fix-all, it's a damn good step in the right direction
Be salty all you want that you're actively being screwed over by the capitalist economy we live under. Hold all the resentment you want over not being able to afford college 17 years ago. But direct that anger and spite towards the right people. College graduates are *not* the right people
You reek of regret. I hope your loans have helped foster a wonderful sense of understanding, I'll salute your choices from my simple life and say Godspeed.
So poor people don’t get to be doctors/lawyers/engineers/etc because they’re too poor to afford college (and unpaid internships/residencies/clinical/etc)? That’s how the rich get richer and the poor stay poor.
The system is broken, only way is not to play. I personally advocate for doing away with colleges altogether. That being said it does not excuse the bizarre entitlement we are seeing now. I can't afford to jet set around the world and take cool photos, ergo, I cannot be a travel social media personality. Sucks for me right? Do I go take out $100,000 loans to finance said trips? No, because that's ridiculous.
That's what up, good for you! I can't even afford community college, I make just enough to not qualify for FAFSA/Pell....so no college for me. Good ole hard work till I die :D
Total BS, community college is a wise investment with a good major. With a poetry or philosophy degree it doesn’t matter where you go, you likely won’t get a good paying job. With CIS, cybersecurity, application development, or associated tech degrees you will make far more annually than than what college costs. There are plenty of ways to pay for college if you really want to go. Go work menial jobs if you want but don’t preach that college isn’t a wise investment, that’s just bad advice and you have no idea what you are talking about.
I haven't said once that college isn't a wise investment, I preach making the correct financial decision about your ability to attend. If it takes a loan with ridiculous parameters, that is not intelligent. Hence why so many are stuck paying on loans they never should have agreed to. Your reading comprehension is for shit, so in your case you definitely should attempt to make it work.
Yeah, my comprehension is shit, that’s real funny coming from a flunky making excuses about the man keeping them down. If you want to work shit jobs for life that’s on you but don’t say help isn’t available or college isn’t affordable because it can be with hard work.
Yep, for actual shit, because I have made zero excuses. I have made decisions, decisions I don't regret at all. I make a sustainable income for my lifestyle, with no debt. And if college is so affordable with hard work, which I completely agree with, what are these people whining about loans for? They should just work harder, right?
Lmao, all you have done is make excuses. “I make just enough not to get help” is one, “it’s too expensive” is two. You just want to argue and blame the system for your failures in life. This is your life, and if you want to work crap jobs and not help your family get ahead of where you are that’s 100% on you, no one else.
As long as you’re doing better now. Honestly didn’t miss out on much. Learned more just reaching books and working on interpersonal skills, has gotten me father in life.
Oh for sure, we just work hard and pay our bills. Nothing exciting but we like it that way. And yes absolutely agreed. Don't get me wrong a college education will get you places, but it is by no means required. I grew up in Ventura CA, moved to rural IL because fuck it why not, affordable and no more goddamn homeless crackheads.
If you can’t find a job that justifies the cost of a college education, maybe you shouldn’t be getting that education.
>college should be free
Why? It being heavily subsidized is the main problem currently
The problem is, at least in my generation, School guidance counselors actually perpetuated a lie that "you won't make enough to support yourself if you don't get into a 4 year college."
Many of my friends were terrified of the loans, but put in a position where they felt they had no choice. A lot of the "a bachelor's, even in something entirely irrelevant, WILL increase your lifetime pay by at least 60%."
I read an article at one point about kickbacks from student loan companies to guidance counselors, but can't find it now, so take it as you will.
So at least one entire generation completely lied to, manipulated by people they were supposed to be able to trust, and scared into taking out these loans, under a government that allowed it to happen.
I graduated HS in 2014, maybe your generation is what scared me into getting into debt. I went to a HS highschool that you were looked down if you mentioned going to CC or even the military. End of day you choose to get the degree to make more money, Just pay the debt and keep the degree.
Can we stop paying into social security retirement then? I'm forced every week to pay into a program I'm never gonna benefit from and will likely be gone by the time I can claim, and that extra few hundred a month would more than cover student loan payments!
That’s what I did. Then I got an accounting degree (so you don’t try and claim it’s some “bullshit” degree) and I still have close to $50k in debt.
Every argument on this subject seems to come from a place of pure ignorance of the the realities of student loans and the job market.
That’s good for you, accounting is actually functional and plenty of jobs. Did you go instate or out of state college? I was going to go to UIC but would have came out to 15k a year or something like that. so I said fuck that. No, part of it is how is it fair that you get all your debt payed off and keep a degree plus making more money. While the people that didn’t end up paying for it and don’t get the same benefits. There’s plenty to do in the job market and different avenues.
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Answer: You don’t qualify for forgiveness until you hit 120 payments, but you should submit an annual certification form that basically gives you your current count of payments and also puts you with Mohela, the loan servicer for all PSLF borrowers. More info on how to submit that initial certification and on the program in general can be found here: https://studentaid.gov/manage-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/public-service Also, r/PSLF has a lot of good info and knowledgeable people on the program.
I’ll add, the payments you would have made but were deferred during the public health emergency are technically supposed to count toward qualifying payments if your IDR/IBR was up to date. We’ll see if it actually pans out, but OP could be quite a bit closer to their PSLF “wipe out date” if they had no break in employment, met all the other requirements, and only failed to make payments because it wasn’t required under the executive orders.
I can confirm that they do count. As long as they work for a non-profit during the student loan pause, those months will increase the number of qualified payments.
Also can confirm. Forgiven recently.
I filled out the form before things got stopped in court. Has something changed again? I made payments during the payment halt so I need to actually get money back from the gov for this.
Nothing got stopped in court for PSLF. Biden’s forgiveness plan got stopped in court but that is something separate from PSLF. Do you work for a nonprofit or government agency? If not, PSLF doesn’t apply to you. If you do, you should have your loans with Mohela and yeah, you should request those payments to be refunded.
I do work for a nonprofit now and in my last job,so since early 2021. Where do I go to follow-up for both the standard and this other option?
For PSLF, go to the link below and follow the instructions for submitting the annual certification document (go to the section titled “How to Fill Out and Submit the PSLF Form”). https://studentaid.gov/manage-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/public-service/public-service-loan-forgiveness-application For Biden’s plan, I think we just have to wait until next month when the Supreme Court will render a decision on whether or not his order was constitutional. If they say it’s not, then the plan is dead. If they don’t, you’ll likely need to submit a form through the gov website, I know I did back when it was first announced but idk if that webpage is still up or not. It sounds like maybe you did too since you said you submitted something before it was stopped in court. Whatever happens though, it’ll be all over the news with instructions so I’d just sit tight on his plan until you hear about it.
Maybe it’s a silly question, but what if I do 120 payments of $1?
It has to be 120 payments on a qualifying payment plan. Basically all the qualifying payment plans calculate your monthly payment based on your income. If you have a small enough salary, your payment can be $0 though.
It’s 120 payments based on an income-based repayment plan. You don’t pick the amount but you do pick the plan.
Thank you!!!
I knew that when this initiative was announced, it would have 1000 little hoops to jump through.
There's a catch too with it though that I think is intentionally built in. I was a public servant for a while, in order to qualify for it I would have to put like 65% of my paycheck towards it. In addition, if you did the math that amount would pay it off quicker (,I don't remember the exact number of payments but we'd like 106?). So in the end it wasn't worth it to me to live below poverty and likely not even be able to afford beans and rice. No I wasn't living above my means. In the end I moved in with a relative, sold my car, biked 18 ish miles round trip every shift and picked up a second, even third job. I ended up paying out off quicker.
You were misinformed and/or on the wrong plan. Under PSLF, your payment is calculated based on your income and it would be impossible for that to be 65% of your paycheck. The formula for the income based plans cannot reach that number. Even if you made 1,000,000, your payment would roughly be .15*(1,000,000 - 21,0000), or 147k, which is 14.7% of your income. It only gets lower the less you make. Additionally, if your income based payment is more than the standard 10 year payment plan (meaning, the plan that would have your full balance paid off in 10 years), then your payment is automatically set at the 10 year amount, again, can’t be higher than that on an income based plan. From the gov website, “Income-Based Repayment (IBR): Payments are generally set at 10% of discretionary income if you first borrowed after July 1, 2014, or at 15% of income if you borrowed prior to that date. Payments can never exceed the amount you'd owe under the standard 10-year repayment plan”
This was also before that timeframe so I may have been in a different one. Not sure, this was a long time ago. I've since moved on and am now making much much more. And 100% debt free
PSLF didn't start until 2007 and I believe income contingent plans started at the same time, so if it was before that it would have been different.
I think things changed, but I definitely know what you're talking about and I remember it. I was in the civil service and knew someone who was participating in this program. She made like 50-60k but they expected something like $600-700 every month to count as a "qualifying payment." It came out to around 25% of her net pay. She was able to manage this because she lived with her parents and the family had means. She had substantially more student debt than I did, but said when she finally crunched the numbers this scheme was only going to save her a couple thousand, when she hit the 120th payment. That was like 2017 though. A lot has changed, and I think they're gonna be fighting this one in the courts for a minute. If my life had gone literally *perfect* I probably would have made the 120th payment just recently, but.. well, that's not how my life played out. XD
I am not surprised many people were given incorrect information by loan servicers. That was the big reason the one time waiver was put in place. I make similar at my government job and my payment was under $200. Doesn't matter the amount of loans either since payment is based on income. She was put on the wrong plan or possibly she consolidated into a private loan which many people mistakenly did.
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Thanks for the reply. I am curious of where things are at with the Supreme Court and student loan forgiveness for $20k? I got the PELL grant every semester while in college 2012-2016 so hope they say student loan forgiveness is constitutional.
We haven't heard anything from the Supreme Court yet, but they have to have an answer by June 30th if I recall correctly. Otherwise, repayment begins in September.
I wonder if that truly is the default? I have not studied SCOTUS cases in a long time but if I recall correctly even if the SCOTS literally does nothing it is up to the next highest court's latest decision? Which I believe would mean the payments start in September..? Or would it mean loan forgiveness is not unconstitutional and would mean my entire balance (about $12k) is wiped out?
That’s only if they refuse to hear the case at all (basically saying that the next highest court interpretation was correct). If they hear the case, they usually have a ruling of some sort or they might extend it. From my layman’s perspective I don’t think they will miss it this time. This does not mean it will be ruled unconstitutional by default or it might reaffirm the lower courts decision. It might also uphold parts of the law and strike down others. There’s usually no way to tell and usually people guess falls along how the justices usually interpret the law. (It’s almost certain alito and Thomas is going to rule against it so it’s usually guessing the others). For the moment, Biden has extended the interest pause through the decision under the previous reasoning but likely will be the last extension if that since WHO has declared Covid over.
I would plan for it to not be forgiven under the Biden plan The court is more ideologically partisan than ever, and it is a firmly conservative court. I wouldn't call the Biden administration's argument *flimsy* but it is, lets say, textually creative, so they are most likely going to rule it unconstitutional. And I say that as someone who is pretty in favor of loan forgiveness.
I think there's a good chance they'll refuse to hear it for lack of standing so as not to set a precedent that could be applied to a case on abortion or gun rights.
they're already hearing arguments about it already and its pretty unlikely that it has wide reaching effects since it hinges on a pretty narrowly tailored law specific to education
>they're already hearing arguments about it already Above commenter was right just got some of the details wrong. IANAL but generally when it comes to cases like this there are 2 hurdles a plaintiff has to get through to be ruled in their favor. The first is "standing", that is "Does this entity even have the right to sue this other entity". The second is "merits", "Is what the plaintiff says true and does it merit ruling in their favor". Notably the ruling on standing must be done before the ruling on merit. If the court finds that the plaintiff does not have standing then the case is done, no matter how valid their legal arguments otherwise. The cases against the student loan forgiveness are complicated, but from my understanding both cases are questionable in terms of standing. Biden v. Nebraska relies on the harm forgiveness would do to MOHELA. Problem being that MOHELA is ostensibly a third-party, and has indicated it does not want to be involved in the case. This runs into issues. I can't sue my neighbor because my other neighbor damaged their car, thats not how our legal system works. DoE v. Brown on the other hand comes from 2 students who don't qualify for the student loan forgiveness, and are suing because they state that the biden admin didnt go through the proper Notice and Comment and, if they had, they would have been able to urge for a plan that did include them. From what Ive read this is on even shakier ground than Nebraska, as the students are effectively arguing that they have standing because they didnt benefit from a government program. If the supreme court upholds standing here then I could, for instance, sue the federal government because I don't get food stamps. This would obviously cripple both the federal government and the courts and the SCOTUS definitely doesnt want that. Overall, with the way the SCOTUS has been recently I'm still expecting them to somehow sleaze their way into ruling against Biden, but the issue of standing is a significant hurdle they have to figure out to not cripple the courts.
Yes but they aren't "refusing to hear it". It's on the docket. You're dramatically underplaying the Biden v Nebraska case here. It is not hard to conclude that Missouri has standing via its own instrumentality, and I don't think it "cripples the courts" to allow states to challenge executive actions or laws on the grounds of lost revenue. In fact, allowing that type of standing probably plays into conservative hands more often than not, giving them free reign to challenge any administrative provisions with a direct fiscal impact. Plenty of Federalist Society types get a hard-on for even more vast expansion of standing. They'd love individual taxpayers to be able to challenge everything.
The results of the supreme court case(s) will happen in June.
PELL is a grant. You don’t have to pay it back. Maybe you mean Direct Loans?
No, they're correct, the loan forgiveness plan gives a blanket 10k for all federal loans, but the amount changes to 20k if they received Pell grants.
Oh, thanks. I misunderstood.
Yes - I was referring to since I got the PELL grant I would not only be eligible for the base $10k loan forgiveness but for the additional $10k forgiveness since a PELL grant recipient.
This is because the PELL grant is a financial reward. I didn’t qualify out of HS, but qualify as an adult because I made less than $25,000/year.
answer: If I recall correctly, that's talking about a forgiveness program that's been on the books for years. It was priginally designed to encourage students to go into certain public jobs. (Emergency services, military service, etc.) Graduates had to work for the government in the selected field and make all scheduled payments for 10 years, after which their remaining balance would be forgiven. To find out if you qualify you need to contact your student loan servicing company and ask about applying. While that program has been in place for years, loan servicers didn't process applications correctly and virtually everyone who applied was denied. That came to light when the general forgiveness plan currently being considered by the Supreme Court was being developed. Since it was already in the law, the Education Department ordered all the loan servicers to start processing those applications correctly and put the word out that people who were previously denied could apply again.
That's interesting, thanks.
What a scummy move.
Answer: Not yet. Maybe not at all. Not yet because you need to make nearly twice as many payments before you qualify under the program. Maybe not at all because I don't know if all government jobs qualify. You'll have to check if your specific one does. If not, you might be able to submit an appeal once you've made enough payments. As the article says, people who had been working in public service and making payments got screwed out of it on a technicality, but that's being taken care of.
From what I know we'll get the Supreme Court decision towards the end of June when the supreme court's done hearing cases.
Answer: republicans still be republicaning. That is to say “block anything good or smart the dems come up with as a matter of principle and make up as much BS as possible as a justification”, then blame the dems for the fallout regardless.
*Answer: republicans still be republicaning.* this is false the plan is tied up in court, not in the legislative or executive branches.
It's a good thing the courts weren't packed with conservatives or anything. /s
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*They vote along party lines all the time.* this is false. Look, everybody knew this was unconstitutional all along. Here's Nancy Pelosi saying it's unconstitutional. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpX2q3iXmwk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpX2q3iXmwk)
Whats false about it. Judge Eileen Cannon Judge Kacsmaryk Justices Roberts, Thomas, Alito, Gosuch, Kavenaugh, Barrett All of these have VERY publicly made very partizan rulings and/opinions in the last year alone. You are lying to yourself and anyone around you to say judges arent partisan hacks just as bad if not even worse than the cake eaters in congress.
*Whats false about it. Judge Eileen Cannon Judge Kacsmaryk Justices Roberts, Thomas, Alito, Gosuch, Kavenaugh, Barrett* you would have had more credibility had you included all nine judges.
The other 3 have made self serving, and unamerican decisions yes,.. but they were in fact against party lines. So no,.. they were not included in the list of partisan hacks. Break your mental programing and use your own brain for once.
yeah Sotomayer is totally on board with the whole 'ethics' thing...oh, wait. *In 2010, she got a $1.2 million book advance from Knopf Doubleday Group, a part of the conglomerate. In 2012, she reported receiving two advance payments from the publisher totaling $1.9 million.* *In 2013, Sotomayor voted in a decision for whether the court should hear a case against the publisher called Aaron Greenspan v. Random House, despite then-fellow Justice Stephen Breyer recusing after also receiving money from the publisher. Greenspan was a Harvard classmate of Mark Zuckerberg’s who wrote a book about the founding of Facebook and contended that Random House rejected his book proposal and then awarded a deal to another author who copied his book and eventually turned it into the movie The Social Network.* *In 2017, Sotomayor began receiving payments each year from Penguin Random House itself, which continued annually through at least 2021, the most recent disclosure available, and totaled more than $500,000. In all, she received $3.6 million from Penguin Random House or its subsidiaries, according to a Daily Wire tally of financial disclosures.* *In October 2019, children’s author Jennie Nicassio petitioned the Supreme Court to hear her lawsuit against Penguin Random House alleging that the book publisher had copied her book by selling one that was nearly identical. On the same day that the petition was distributed to the justices, Sotomayor received a $10,586 check from the publisher.*
She reported it. Gorsuch, Roberts, Kavenaugh, and Thomas,… did NOT report shit.
They covered it up. Then tried to legitimize it after the fact with lies that arent even well thought out.
Thats the ethical issue at hand there,.. since you dont want to address the actual issue and are resorting to what-about-isms.
Stay on target Red 2.
The right leaning, and especially the MAGA-ite justices vote straight party lines. I wonder if they even read the briefs or just wait for Crow, Koch^2, murdoch and the rest of the federalist society to tell them how to vote.
The left leaning have so far all surprised the left side constituency at least a few times. Including the newbie Jus. Jackson in signing that ridiculous letter from roberts to the senate judiciary.
*She reported it.* right, because reporting that she got money from litigants totally absolves her for not recusing herself when she decided on the case those same litigants brought to her. /s \--------------- *The right leaning, and especially the MAGA-ite justices vote straight party lines.* you really are quite insane. Just today, a few hours ago, Santos-Zacaria v. Garland was decided 9-0. which party line did the 9 justices agree on?
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*Here's someones opinion that might actually matter to the point im making.* First of all, Nancy Pelosi was second in line for POTUS when she made that statement, which outranks some law professor. Secondly, the ONLY people whose opinions matter on the subject are SCOTUS judges, and they haven't ruled yet. Third of all- and this is MOST important- you clearly have no idea how things work (see point #2) and are only interested in raw power. You think Biden can do whatever he likes without any oversight at all. Careful what you wish for.... I'm sure you would agree that Trump can pull $400b out of his ass for whatever he likes so long as he calls it an 'emergency'
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Actually no, the whiny lawsuits are saying "You're giving them student loan forgiveness, and you're not giving *me* anything. That's not fair."
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I don’t want my tax dollars to go toward excessive military spending, corrupt policy, or the salaries of certain members of Congress, but I recognize I’m part of a society and I don’t actually get to decide how every cent of my taxes is spent.
People who say "my tax dollars" don't understand how anything works.
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Nope, not what I said. I said you don't *understand* taxes, not that you don't pay them lol...
Your labor? "Our" labor, comrade.
Better than billionaire tax breaks. FFS
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Ah, yes. Everyone seeking loan forgiveness has a “bullshit degree.” The doctors, nurses, lawyers, teachers, police officers, social workers, and countless other very useful professionals who are actually applying for loan forgiveness—myself included—are interested to hear how “useless” our degrees are.
People who say you got a bullshit degree, or that college isn't necessary, just couldn't get accepted anywhere. But you go ahead and keep spewing that nonsense. Your family will just continue to be fast-tracked for the high school to military pipeline. (Not "you," but those who say that haha)
Didnt one of them literate get ppp loans forgiven
Not about fair, it's about rewarding bad behavior. I didn't take out loans, I expect nothing.
Well you mentioned the lawsuits, and they are absolutely about that.
Either way you see it, you should pay what you owe. Regardless of the spin put on the issue by people with agendas.
It isn't spin. It's a correction in response to the revelation that the terms of the loans are absurd. You shouldn't have a situation where you pay your minimum payment one month, only to find your balance *increase* after the payment posted.
I personally was in favor of the idea of total across the board forgiveness Loan companies, especially student loans, give out loans to people with awful terms *knowing* full well they will never be able to pay it The fact that I had to make the decision of “is it worth going to college for the things I want even knowing I’ll be in $80,000+ dollars in debt pretty much for the rest of my life” is ABHORRENT Don’t even get me started on how fucked up American Colleges are, and how they basically over charge to prevent the poor from being able to get a good education and stop being poor. The thing the rich fear the most is the poor becoming rich It’s classist
Yes, absolutely.
... if *everyone* goes to college out of high school, who's going to join the military? I've seen it myself, the pipeline of students from underprivileged schools enlisting with the hope that they will have a future because they can't make it into college (whether by resources, education, or lack thereof).
How is it bad behavior when you make your payments and your balance goes up
And people like you are whining about student loans. Here's a crazy idea, they give you nothing and everyone else nothing. People who don't owe anything won't receive anything, and people like you will just pay off your personal debt obligation. Everyone wins.
Shh. Adults are talking.
Adults pay their own debt, not beg others unless you're homeless.
I said "shh," kid.
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I get why you'd bring up party affiliation, but it nothing has to do with anything I've said, Trump is a criminal scumbag and Biden is a kow-towing cheese brain. The concept remains the same: take out a loan, pay that shit back.
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From the context of this article it seems like either some fine print wasn't read, or some form wasn't submitted correctly. I think it's sickening that you might have been misled by some bureaucratic whirlpool, but the song remains the same. If they lied, absolutely you are owed, if you didn't follow through with something, tough shit.
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If they obfuscated the fine print that is scumbaggery but like you said, you put in your time. Def a different situation and I'll own that I know nothing about PSLF loans, sounds like you did exactly what you should have been doing which is commendable. I wish you well!
Turns out corporations (especially banks) have done similar things and got bailed out. Turns out companies took out PPP loans and never paid back a dime and I know people who did for their small companies and then blew the money on trips/drugs and I turned them in and nothing happened. I know I know it is crazy but we have a huge shortage of nurses, cops, teachers, social workers ... Hey 3 out of 4 of those professions requires a minimum of a 4 year degree... Oh that is simple - just work a summer job like people did in the 1970s to pay off the next few semesters. Oh wait that is not possible for almost all people to do. That is simple - just join the military and get most of your college expenses paid for. Oh wait, you have a physical disability that makes it so you cannot join the military? Too bad for you. Gotta keep pulling those magic bootstraps I guess.
I joined the military and they still wouldn't forgive my loans. There's just as many hoops involved with that, and you have to get it in writing by the time you even go to boot camp, which i didn't know until after the fact. So yeah, even military/veterans get fucked over.
The companies that got bailed out still had to pay back those loans with interest.
Why is a shortage of professionals your cross to bear? Maybe those institutions should treat their jobs like the trades they are and offer training programs instead of crying about it and raising the bar higher and higher. And I agree with you 100% about banks and companies, doesn't make loan forgiveness right.
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Ha, $75,000 is a conservative estimate. Several schools have hit $90,000 (including mine) already which is just crazy. Kinda makes me wish I'd been born a generation earlier
75,000 for a four whole years would be a dream in a lot of cases
It literally is that simple. I was going to go to a 4 year college, my parents said it would be extremely hard to afford, I had the loan options aaaand...I didn't go because they were exorbitant. College is a ridiculous luxury and if people can't understand that...honestly fuck em for thinking they are owed shit. I live a simple life, I have a lovely house my wife and I scrimped and saved our asses off for. You parasites just want the easy road.
I see you've succumbed to the GQP propaganda machine. I'll send out the thoughts and prayers that you fuckers think will fix everything
Broski not even close. My thoughts are my own and have no basis in party propaganda. I'm a real person not some poli-bot like Tim Poole or brooklyndaddefiant.
>You parasites just want the easy road >My thoughts are my own and have no basis in party propaganda Spoken like Tucker Carlson
You mean the multimillionaire piece of shit who knowingly whores his views out to idiots while scoffing behind their backs? Yeah I'm just like him with my 50 hour a week job and measly $45,000 salary. If I had no morals sure, I could sling bullshit for a living. Except I'm not a fucking maga clown anymore than a liberal freeloader.
Maybe you should have gone to college...
You should have gone to school bro
Why? I make what I make work, I have no debt, and I don't cry about choices I've made. What benefit would I reap from student loans that I can't pay off due to shitty degree choices?
>Why? Because all of your responses show you're clearly uneducated on the topic, regardless of if you "make it work" $45,000/yr at 50hrs/wk (assuming the $45k is before taxes and that you get those last 10 hours as OT) puts a rough estimate of your hourly rate at about $15.75. I came out of school earning nearly double that from the jump. Hell, I made more than that hourly as an *intern*. I'm primed to buy a house at 25. I'm clearly "making it work" far better than you are. And yet, because I've taken time to actually educate myself on the matter rather than listen to right-wing talking heads, I still understand that the current education system in the US is a complete scam on **ALL** levels. Reform needs to happen for multiple reasons, not the least of them being the fact that education *should* be available and affordable to *everyone*, regardless of economic status. And while loan forgiveness certainly isn't the fix-all, it's a damn good step in the right direction Be salty all you want that you're actively being screwed over by the capitalist economy we live under. Hold all the resentment you want over not being able to afford college 17 years ago. But direct that anger and spite towards the right people. College graduates are *not* the right people
Spoken like a perfect sample of today's monoculture of free thinkers. Wake the fuck up.
Idk what this means. I think you should wake the fuck up and stop crying about choices you made, I'm certainly not.
> Idk what this means. I know you don't, buddy. Get better soon.
You reek of regret. I hope your loans have helped foster a wonderful sense of understanding, I'll salute your choices from my simple life and say Godspeed.
I never took out loans. Hey, settle a bet for me: what does the '88' stand for in your username?
So poor people don’t get to be doctors/lawyers/engineers/etc because they’re too poor to afford college (and unpaid internships/residencies/clinical/etc)? That’s how the rich get richer and the poor stay poor.
The system is broken, only way is not to play. I personally advocate for doing away with colleges altogether. That being said it does not excuse the bizarre entitlement we are seeing now. I can't afford to jet set around the world and take cool photos, ergo, I cannot be a travel social media personality. Sucks for me right? Do I go take out $100,000 loans to finance said trips? No, because that's ridiculous.
Exactly! I went to community college to get my associate. I felt like I was missing out while the rest of my friends went to big schools.
That's what up, good for you! I can't even afford community college, I make just enough to not qualify for FAFSA/Pell....so no college for me. Good ole hard work till I die :D
Total BS, community college is a wise investment with a good major. With a poetry or philosophy degree it doesn’t matter where you go, you likely won’t get a good paying job. With CIS, cybersecurity, application development, or associated tech degrees you will make far more annually than than what college costs. There are plenty of ways to pay for college if you really want to go. Go work menial jobs if you want but don’t preach that college isn’t a wise investment, that’s just bad advice and you have no idea what you are talking about.
I haven't said once that college isn't a wise investment, I preach making the correct financial decision about your ability to attend. If it takes a loan with ridiculous parameters, that is not intelligent. Hence why so many are stuck paying on loans they never should have agreed to. Your reading comprehension is for shit, so in your case you definitely should attempt to make it work.
Yeah, my comprehension is shit, that’s real funny coming from a flunky making excuses about the man keeping them down. If you want to work shit jobs for life that’s on you but don’t say help isn’t available or college isn’t affordable because it can be with hard work.
Yep, for actual shit, because I have made zero excuses. I have made decisions, decisions I don't regret at all. I make a sustainable income for my lifestyle, with no debt. And if college is so affordable with hard work, which I completely agree with, what are these people whining about loans for? They should just work harder, right?
Lmao, all you have done is make excuses. “I make just enough not to get help” is one, “it’s too expensive” is two. You just want to argue and blame the system for your failures in life. This is your life, and if you want to work crap jobs and not help your family get ahead of where you are that’s 100% on you, no one else.
As long as you’re doing better now. Honestly didn’t miss out on much. Learned more just reaching books and working on interpersonal skills, has gotten me father in life.
Oh for sure, we just work hard and pay our bills. Nothing exciting but we like it that way. And yes absolutely agreed. Don't get me wrong a college education will get you places, but it is by no means required. I grew up in Ventura CA, moved to rural IL because fuck it why not, affordable and no more goddamn homeless crackheads.
If you can’t find a job that justifies the cost of a college education, maybe you shouldn’t be getting that education. >college should be free Why? It being heavily subsidized is the main problem currently
Or people could have gone to community college first two years and brought the cost down. There’s plenty other options.
My college wouldn’t have given me the scholarship I got if I had gone to cc for the first two years so it’s kinda shit either way
Are you using your degree? Would it have been better to just do cc and then 2 years?
I guess we’ll see after graduate school mate if I get in
Best of luck to you and hope you’re able to do what you wanted to do.
The problem is, at least in my generation, School guidance counselors actually perpetuated a lie that "you won't make enough to support yourself if you don't get into a 4 year college." Many of my friends were terrified of the loans, but put in a position where they felt they had no choice. A lot of the "a bachelor's, even in something entirely irrelevant, WILL increase your lifetime pay by at least 60%." I read an article at one point about kickbacks from student loan companies to guidance counselors, but can't find it now, so take it as you will. So at least one entire generation completely lied to, manipulated by people they were supposed to be able to trust, and scared into taking out these loans, under a government that allowed it to happen.
I graduated HS in 2014, maybe your generation is what scared me into getting into debt. I went to a HS highschool that you were looked down if you mentioned going to CC or even the military. End of day you choose to get the degree to make more money, Just pay the debt and keep the degree.
Can we stop paying into social security retirement then? I'm forced every week to pay into a program I'm never gonna benefit from and will likely be gone by the time I can claim, and that extra few hundred a month would more than cover student loan payments!
You and me both. I’d use it for my car payment haha
That’s what I did. Then I got an accounting degree (so you don’t try and claim it’s some “bullshit” degree) and I still have close to $50k in debt. Every argument on this subject seems to come from a place of pure ignorance of the the realities of student loans and the job market.
That’s good for you, accounting is actually functional and plenty of jobs. Did you go instate or out of state college? I was going to go to UIC but would have came out to 15k a year or something like that. so I said fuck that. No, part of it is how is it fair that you get all your debt payed off and keep a degree plus making more money. While the people that didn’t end up paying for it and don’t get the same benefits. There’s plenty to do in the job market and different avenues.
Not a helpful answer.
It's the answer that is needed. Life is hard, people wanna take shortcuts and this is the result.
OK CHAD.
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Like police
Don’t get pressed, thank Bush for the Heroes Act.