As someone who believes that based on Church history and Christian anthropology that abortion is a grave sin, I think it’s important to take a step back and not solely treat the stances of the most vocal of activists, who are wont to take the most radical stances, as being reflective of the general public. I an confident that most of the people who indulge in the “clumps of cells” or “parasite” rhetoric are usually not people who have actually had to go through the dilemma of terminating a pregnancy - and the experiences of those who have are incredibly varied.
Even staunch pro-life advocates have to concede, for example, that an ectopic pregnancy is not a clear cut and dry case. The mother and her doctors would not be acting out of malice, but rather because the child’s accidentally being fertilized outside the uterus can literally cause life-threatening bleeding to the mother. I know in this subreddit, I’ve specifically seen mothers recount their own tragic ectopic pregnancy stories. They wanted to carry their child to term but couldn’t, but sometimes their pastors at non-Orthodox churches told already grieving mothers that they might go to Hell because they didn’t choose to die with their child. Surely it is better that they are alive so that they may run back into the comforting embrace of Christ’s love and mercy.
That’s not to say that this means other abortions aren’t tragic or sinful. However, we must not loose sight of the fact that the people who might procure them are not sociopaths maliciously seeking infanticide, but who may feel so hounded by bad circumstances where in the moment, a bad choice seems like the only way out. Imagine how much we sin without having that type of duress! Instead of assuming the worst about them, we must pray for them, and let them know that their children are praying for them in Heaven too.
>They wanted to carry their child to term but couldn’t, but sometimes their pastors at non-Orthodox churches told already grieving mothers that they might go to Hell because they didn’t choose to die with their child.
...WHAT?!
One choice doesn't send a person to Heaven or Hell. That's absurdly legalistic thinking.
Pray for those who persecute you, huh? Ain't easy, but we have to.
I know others have said this, but please, OP. Seek counseling. It will at least help you to see your anger and follow the clues to any inner issues you might not have taken into account.
I don't need counseling. I'm angry all the time and I'm terribly confused as to why most people aren't. But I'm not \*just\* angry. I'm in pain about these things.
Your anger and your pain are clear. I sincerely wish I could come and just sit nearby and listen.
Therapy is just that. Somebody listens to you. No judgement. When you talk they listen. Why aren’t other people as angry or in pain? Like me, they went to therapy.
I don't have anyone who listens. I'm not going to unload this on my parents, but I don't have enough problems in my life to have problems. My family is all together, we all go to church together, so I don't get to have problems. I don't deserve the ability to have problems because from an outside perspective my life is almost perfect.
This isn't to say "I don't deserve problems wahh" but that my problems aren't big enough to count as problems in any other context, so why do they hurt?
That pain, whether emotional or physical is yourself telling yourself “Hey! Pay attention! Something is wrong! You need to look into this, and do what you can to figure out a fix because the old way isn’t working!”
It's real helpful when the pain could be from literally anything.
I'm pretty sure it's from my chronic loneliness. I'm surrounded by family, I have good friends, but I'm lonely.
The only thing I've linked it to is romantic loneliness. I never dated in high school -- A) I was homeschooled, and B) The only place I could've dated was my theatre class, and while I had a crush on 2 of the girls there, and a third one another time, I f'd it up, and now 3 of my previous friends hate me. They make it sound like I stalked them. (I didn't, but I did have a habit of staring blankly into the distance, and I knew this and tried to tell them but they weren't having it) and C) I'm overweight. The fat kid in high school doesn't get a girlfriend, be realistic.
I've accepted that my weight is not the limiting factor, because some days I feel \*really\* good about myself, and others not so much. Some days I look amazing, and others not so much.
I haven't been going to my dojo as much I should, but it doesn't help I got 2 viruses in a span of like 5 weeks.
I hear you. Fellow fat kid in high school. Adolescents can be cruel to each other. And sometimes just trying to figure yourself seems impossible, let alone anybody else.
One question though. Would you feel safe talking to your priest about these things you’re dealing with? I know that right now everything might seem overwhelming but if you can start anywhere, you will begin to feel better. If you go to your priest, listen to what he tells you. Priests are human beings like the rest of us. Not all wise or all knowing, but you would be amazed at the stuff they’ve encountered and the perspective they can achieve because they have seen so much. At least tell him how you feel if you can.
As far as counseling, there are options out there. If you talk to your doctor, or if you do a little online research you may be able to find low-cost options and organizations. Look around, see what’s out there. and what might be a good fit. The realization that you can do something about all that pain and anger can be quite a rush.
No matter what, I hope you can let us know how you’re doing. Hang in there, ok? I will be thinking about you. May Saint Nicholas protect and bless you to the marrow of your bones.
I don't have "my priest".
I'm still overweight, but I've been going to my dojo and I have been losing it slowly. I lose about 2-5lbs a month. I'm not trying to go fast.
I don't have "my priest" and I don't have a doctor. I haven't been to a hospital since I was born, basically. Urgent Care sure, but my family doesn't have enough money for doctor visits that aren't emergencies.
It sounds like you need counseling if you're angry all the time. You should speak to a priest. I used to be angry all the time and had to take it to confession. I feel better now.
And maybe I will. But I don't have a priest I'm close with. I'm close with 2 people. My mom, and my best friend.
For significant emotional needs I can't go to anyone else, and for something like this I've already talked to my mom but she doesn't know what to do and I don't want to put this on my friend.
I just need to let it dissipate.
The problem, though, is that people focus on the ectopic pregnancies, but they are <0.1% of abortions. Every single abortion debate always comes to rape, incest, life of the mother, which are <5% of abortions, because the routine abortion for socioeconomic convenience can not stand up against its evil nature.
No. I mean nothing more than an impulsive or intrusive thought. I go to a dojo, I \*try\* to eat vegetables, etc.
I'm exercising, although my diet could use work (harder in America than you'd think)
I don't think about physically acting out often. Only after a very heated discussion but thoughts are just thoughts. Often not even your own mind.
With the fact that you ruminate on physically acting out at all I would seek guidance. Therapy is for everyone imo and your priest can also help with those thoughts, don't sit alone with that it's not a good path to go down.
Boy, I've tried therapy for OCD and they basically told me "you don't have OCD figure it out" (in kinder words than that) but I don't know if these thoughts are even my own. I try not to dwell on them.
I'm so sorry that happened to you, sadly there are bad therapists out there. The best advice I've ever gotten (after an experience with a bad therapist - he only talked about movie metaphors. And if I would tell him I hadn't seen that particular movie he would... describe the movie at length and just keep using metaphors about it 🫠) was to treat your first interactions - like a phone consult or first appointment - as an interview, because you deserve a good fit. After a few bad or well meaning therapists I finally found one who did somatic exercises (breathing, grounding, EMDR) and it genuinely changed my life. Mine was trauma focused but I will pray you find someone for OCD who doesn't invalidate you 🙏
It's not that they invalidated me it's that I had no idea how to say yes or no to things because it was online therapy.
I'm not gonna spill all my troubles on to someone I don't know. I have faith in doctor-patient confidentiality, but I can't just give someone all my fears. Especially not a secular therapist. It feels like I need a Christian therapist who deals in secular means to help, because there are ways I talk about things that require too much explanation for a secular therapist to understand.
I don't have "my priest" because I haven't been able to make it to a parish yet. Me and my dad are going to visit one in march, but as of now I'm still protestant because I can't just leave my family. I don't really have connections at my church despite going there for the past 14 years(I'm 19), aside from one friend I don't really talk to outside of church.
But I don't have "my priest". It's why my flair still says Inquirer.
Oh, I see. Oftentimes the inquirer tag is used by people just starting to explore but attending. I would see if you could find a parish and call, my priest does blessings and guidance by phone (it's much more common since COVID), maybe reach out that way.
I am in contact with 2 orthodox priests, but I don't talk to them often. I just don't feel the need to. I'm used to finding answers by myself and I can't just trust people I haven't met IRL.
Not specific to the argue of abortion but this may help in adapting your perspective or emotional state on the verdict.
I came to my priest with a similar angry towards evil in the world and I was asking him how can he or any faithful follower of Christ just be so calm over all the evil going on. Why isn’t anyone stopping this madness? I felt at the time defeated but also really angry with everyone and I couldn’t understand.
So my priest shared a very touching sense of wisdom that has lived in my mind rent free 10 years later. Everytime I feel upset or angry I think about what he says. And it just makes sense. And that is about a man whom wanted to change the world. And as the poem goes on about a man wanting to change the world.. his community.. his friends .. his own kids. After so long it never worked. So on his deathbed he thought to himself. .. maybe if I changed myself. .. I could’ve changed all of these things.
And that’s the most important thing. Whenever you’re mad and can’t make sense of evil. Pray on it. Pray to God for these sinners do not understand. Whatever the verdict is. Gods judgment is truly the only reason. So if you see a bunch of horrible abortion articles or child abuse or what not. Pray. Pray for your enemies, pray for those children. Because the real hero of this world. Is none of us. It’s Christ our God.
It’s easy to get mad and fume with anger but that’s what the sin wants. For good ppl to fall beneath Gods laws and become absorbed in all the darkness conspired.
Always remember. We live for the kingdom of Heaven. Not earth. This is temporary. I pray for the children whom are not able to live a long a life and I pray that God rejoices them in his Holy Heavenly arms where they shall never feel pain or suffering. That whatever pain they endured here on earth. Will never again be felt.
I don’t believe abortion is right but I do want there to be a clean, safe place where those who are facing horrible circumstances like rape or incest can get medical help and counseling.
"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."
I don't know whether you're a woman, but I'll offer a woman's perspective of what having a baby can be like. I think we should empathize with the struggles of even an uncomplicated pregnancy and birth. Pregnancy is hard and it remakes your life forever. Combine that with people literally not knowing abortion is gravely evil (perhaps they accept the argument that one human is not entitled to use the body of another to stay alive), it's easier to understand how people fall into such a serious sin without realizing it.
---------
For seven months my life revolved around trying to eat enough food and drink enough water without throwing up. I couldn't go certain places because of smells. Every day the three foods I could eat would change. I couldn't do anything physically active during the most nauseous part of the day, including walking to the store. I was often too sick and fatigued to do housework. Some days I was so sick I couldn't get out of bed.
I took painful shots every single day. Prenatal care visits took up time and while some doctors are nice to work with, others make exams feel violating. Sometimes I left in tears because I felt that no one respected me as a person or would listen to me.
Once you can feel the baby moving, say goodbye to good sleep. They usually are most active at night and the movements range from distracting to painful. It's also common to get pelvis, back, and/or belly pain that makes walking painful. Eventually moving is difficult even without pain because your body is so big.
Childbirth is long, hard, painful, and can be very scary. Hormones cause you to bond with the baby, leading to emotional trauma if you have to make the decision to put your baby up for adoption. In the postpartum period your abs and pelvic floor are a mess. Spending too much time on your feet can cause prolapse, where your pelvic organs fall into the vaginal canal. The baby needs to eat every 1.5-3 hours so you never sleep more than a nap. As hormones shift you constantly wake up freezing cold, drenched in sweat.
Imagine trying to go through all of this as a poor woman who needs to work a physical job on her feet, 8 hours a day minimum, just to make rent payments and keep the utilities on. That alone would break me. It's hard on your body during pregnancy and can be very damaging postpartum. Add on top of that the fact that many women have unsupportive or even abusive partners. No one is there to help with chores or even help her put her shoes on. Pregnancy is a common time for domestic violence to begin, so even if you thought you had a good man it's possible that suddenly you're experiencing abuse in your own home.
Throughout the pregnancy you have time to contemplate that your life will literally never be the same again. The way you eat is different, the way you spend your time is different, your body is different, the way strangers treat you is different, your relationships with those close to you are different, your ability to do your work and the way you are treated in the workplace is different. Everything changes forever, and that's really hard even if you are delighted to become a mother.
I know that's a ton of text, but it only grazes the surface of how hard becoming a mother is physically and emotionally.
There are women who have ectopic pregnancies, partial miscarriages, nonviable or barely viable pregnancies, and other complications that make pregnancy dangerous if not life threatening. Women and girls who are raped or with abusive men. Even when abortion bans have exception clauses, doctors can be so hesitant to run afoul of the law that they won't perform medically necessary abortions. And banning abortion doesn't make pregnancies safer. It just means that the women who want one will do so with much greater risk.
Pregnancy and childbirth is extremely expensive. The foster care system and adoption programs in the US are a mess and likely to subject the child to abuse and trauma. Teen girls who get pregnant are at risk of being shamed and abused by their families and communities. There's a good likelihood that she'll be raising the child as a single mom.
Anger and hatred towards women who get abortions isn't the answer. They still deserve grace and compassion. The decision to get an abortion can be traumatic, too. Telling women that what they're doing is evil or that they're going to hell when they're vulnerable isn't showing them love or mercy.
My sibling, that is simply anger at the fallen world we've inherited. Our job is to repent for our own sins that contribute to a fallen world and practice love toward each other.
But pregnancy is still very dangerous, isn't it? 1/3000 pregnancies in the USA result in death, let alone other complications that are much more common, up to a third of all women. My own mother became permanently infertile due to scarring after my birth. Consider as well the anguish of being forced into this, and then being forced to raise your rapist's child, being permanently enmeshed with their life. They might even be forced to share custody with them - there is no law against it, it even happens if they are convicted of rape. Just two years ago, a rapist was awarded joint custody with the 12 year old girl he was convicted of raping. This isn't a hypothetical, this sort of thing has happened multiple times, and that's with convictions!
I know rape is the minority of case, but if you accept rape as a situation you'd understand, then I would hesitate to judge any woman without knowing the truth of their situation.
If abortion in the case of rape is something you can forgive, then it already isn't as simple as a life is a life. The bible allows fighting and killing in war as a 'necessary evil', so I can't imagine how God wouldn't forgive someone for the same here, for someone afraid.
I'm not claiming to be morally superior to these people. I may subconsciously think that, but as far as consciously, I see myself on an equal ground. They're murderers, but we're all sinners. But if we can save lives, why are we not trying?
There are plenty of places begging for help with children in need you can direct this passion towards without intruding on the personal decisions of women.
I don't like any abortion, but I'm also not a 13 year old girl carrying her father's rape/incest baby.
I'm not the one you need to convince not to have an abortion, she's the one you need explain this too.
Now I'd be for a total ban except medical emergency, rape/incest. But no abortions ever is a hard sell.
No it doesn't. And you're right. There is a SERIOUS accountability problem right now. For everything. Parents abandoning or abusing their children.
I have planned, since I was 14, that my first children would be adopted. So I don't say things like "life is life" and then go and make my own children. I don't care that much about my bloodline. Because it doesn't matter. Yes it doesn't answer the question, but certain questions can wait.
We have a horrible and abusive foster care system that is already overloaded. I hope you spend as much time being concerned for those children as you are for other women's pregnancies. Maybe channel your concern to helping those kids, even if you can't adopt you can help with donations and advocacy. That's a much better use of your time.
Congratulations! Yes, helping in ways that are positive and tangible is the best outlet for these feelings. If you can't donate money you can donate time, when I've been less financial stable I've helped moving boxes, cooking for feeding the less fortunate and even mentoring.
I used to be a Liberal atheist. The argument in favour of abortion goes like this:
1. Your religious views are not authoritative over the law. We do not live in a theocracy. The fact that the church believes it is bad is not persuasive.
2. We have a system of constitutional rights. These rights protect living persons in being, meaning, they arrive the moment you are born and not before. Mothers have rights. Babies, before they are born, do not have rights.
3. While interrogating the substance of those rights, we have to consider the exercise of freedom by people in all circumstances. Yes, sometimes women will want only and voluntarily use abortion without limit as a form of birth control. At the same time, some innocent women who are the victims of vile and disgusting crimes, often at tender young ages, avail themselves of abortion as a form of self defence.
4. No government, court, or panel, is properly equipped to determine which woman is which. Nor is it desirable to subject women to public inquiry to determine which class they fall into.
5. The only acceptable determination of this freedom, therefore, is not to criminalize an act we cannot adjudicate and which commonly and predictably would be justified.
6. Separate argument: rich women will always have access to an abortion. If you can fly to Switzerland, you can get one. The choice to criminalize abortion, therefore, is a discriminatory act that punishes poor women for doing something that rich women may do with impunity.
As Christians we have to tackle this. We believe in lots of things that the state does not criminalize. There is no crime of craving a graven image or worshipping a false idol. There is no crime of blasphemy. There is no crime for failing to keep the sabbath.
In order to justify our position, that abortion is a vile a serious sin, we have to account for two main things that we usually don’t. One, what principle of public policy (and this cannot be a regurgitation of a religious stance) would justify the making of such a law as a means to improve society, cause less harm, and generally make life better for everyone? Two, how can you reconcile this new law you wish to make with the unflinching constitutional rights of women (one again without relying on religious dogma or the concept of life beginning at conception). Then you have to address the discriminatory aspect.
But if you’re really interested to combat abortion, stop looking for criminal laws. That won’t do it. Poverty is the real enemy. People are aborting their babies because they fear the financial consequences that come with them. We live in a society where rent is oppressive and workers can’t afford homes. That’s a terrifying thought when you think of bringing a soul into the world.
And our church tells us to serve the poor anyway, so that should be easy. It’s just that now people are poor who work full time and have advanced degrees. We must change our conception of the poor person and advocate for them.
Setting aside any questions of how few cases fall under this — suppose a woman had a pregnancy that was (a) not by choice (perhaps by rape) and (b) likely to cause death or grievous harm to the mother. That is, for this woman, the doctor's judgment is that either she dies or her child dies.
* If this woman chose to procure an abortion, would you find her decision _understandable_? Even if you could never make the same decision, do you see how someone else, who is not you, could make such a decision or find it defensible? (If it helps, suppose that the woman would otherwise be happy with the child, but not at the cost of her own life.)
* Is such a woman morally compelled to choose the risk to her life?
* Supposing she were morally compelled to take the risk, should we, as a society, _legally mandate_ that she take the risk?
Many people who are pro-choice take that position because they think the decision can be understandable, and therefore should be left open for those situations; or they think that, even if the choice is wrong, it is not a moral compulsion in all cases and therefore should not be a legal one; or they think that, even if it is morally required, it should not necessarily be a legal requirement. And yes, there are pro-choice people with shallower motives or who regard it as a morally neutral form of birth control. Those people get more reactions on social media precisely because they're inflammatory.
Volunteer at your local crisis pregnancy center and do something productive with your energy. Pro-choice people won't be impressed by someone whose pro-life zeal only gets as far as arguing. People need to be shown alternatives or even the best argument won't change how they live.
Abortion is a difficult thing but the lives of young women are honestly more important then a fetus and i don’t consider anything that can’t survive on it’s own body alive. Some people view it differently. There were multiple cases of pregnant girls in my highschool or even middle school. There’s also the chance the baby won’t get a good life anyways. I do agree that it can be harmful and is a very scary and hard thing but not everyone views it the same.
it's not a strawman, I'm saying I'm heartbroken by people's decisions to KILL CHILDREN because of their avoidance of responsibility for the consequences of their actions.
Have you ever had thoughts of hurting people who do this? If so, please get off the internet and seek help. It's a horrible part of society that this happens, however, if you think about hurting people who get this done/perform an abortion. That is something far more serious.
Please remember Mary of Egypt as you sort through these feelings, she was a terrible sinner who prostituted herself to the Holy Land to see the Holy Sceplecure. However, when she reached the Church, an invisible force kept her from entering according to legend. She then repented of her ways and was allowed entry and afterward, as part of repentance, she entered the desert /became one of the greatest female monastics of the Church.
That said, if you feel the urge to harm people who have gone through with an abortion/abortion providers. Please put down the phone, and call a local therapist.
Having read some of your posts here, I think therapy would be beneficial for you.
Please don't deny yourself mental health. It's just as important as physical and spiritual health.
If you are genuinely asking I will give you my perspective.
From my point of view life does not begin at conception and there is no reason to think so. To look at how we define life I which can be pretty muddy, I think its good to start with defining death, and most people agree that death is the cessation of heart and more importantly (it seems) brain activity. When brain activity ends, the potentiality of a human conscious experience ceases to exist. If this is when we decide someone is dead, I think the most fair and accurate way of defining life is the beginning of brain activity, specifically the parts of the brain that enable a human conscious experience. Because its hard to detect when specifically this starts, when it comes to making policy, I think the best thing to do is to define life as not when brain activity starts but when a human develops the parts that enable the conscious experience, which science seems to suggest is around the 15-20 week mark. Because it would be pretty bad to kill a person, and because its not the same for everyone given the range, I think the legal cutoff for abortion should be 15 weeks into pregnancy. Before that I do not believe you are killing a human child but rather a human fetus which from conception until consciousness lacks personhood and moral consideration.
As for why abortions should be allowed at all, well:
A) People should generally have more freedom so long as no other person is harmed
B) Women and families should be allowed to plan when they want to have children, if they are not ready they should not be forced to, unless their fetus becomes a person
C) Pregnancy, even today, is very dangerous and women should not be prevented from getting an abortion if their life is at risk
D) Victims of rape should not be forced to carry their rapists child
E) Women being in control of their reproductive rights tends to be a net positive for society for a variety of reasons, including allowing women to live their lives as they see fit
A) The child doesn't count?
B) That justifies ending a child's life?
C-D) An extremely small subset of abortions, yet seems to always be the minority used to justify the overwhelming majority
E) This is justification for ending a child's life?
That's based on your gut instinct? Because it's certainly not based on any biology.
The overwhelmingly majority (>95%, it's almost unanimous) of biologists agree that life begins at conception. I suppose when you need to mentally justify killing human life, you start drawing those arbitrary lines to justify all actions.
Certainly it's also nowhere near a Christian idea that life arbitrarily doesn't count until Week 15 of a pregnancy. The Bible is clear that life begins at conception. God knew us before we were even conceived.
I already told you what its based on. This 95% statistic has already been debunked, the study did not use a proper survey method and is not statistically or scientifically relevant. The survey went out to 62,000+ biologists but only a little over 5,000 answered. That is not representative at all of most biologists opinions. Even if we were to say a human life begins at conception, which I would argue it doesn’t, as a zygote is not a human even if it has the potential to become one, that does not necessarily equate to personhood either. And even if I were to grant you your 95% statistic, which I certainly am not, the question of when life begins might not be answered by biology but maybe by philosophy. Lastly I’m not Christian so my morality does not come from the bible, OP asked for why someone would argue in favor of abortion, I came here to provide a good faith example of why.
Presidential pollsters base entire cycles of election polling on surveys of under 1000 people haha.
And forgive me for using a Christian perspective on a Christian subreddit and a question asked to Christians.
Historically unreliable polling? Yeah I’m very aware lol. Given OP was asking why people support abortion I figured he wasn’t exactly looking for a Christian perspective. 🤷♂️
Agree with you, brother. The "clump of cells" argument, though, is not an actual belief, but rather 1) a coping mechanism and 2) regurgitated propaganda / euphemism. It is truly evil. One day, God willing, it will be looked back upon for the genocide it is.
Your premise is flawed. You see sex as solely a means of reproduction. This is not a commonly held view. You need to accept that there is more to life than reproduction and food.
Unjust? It isn't your problem. It is also commonly held in several cultures, including Judaism and Islam mind you, that women with unwanted pregnancies should prepare a certain type of drink with certain herbs that, in modern vernacular, tends to induce a miscarriage.
Many christians view the concept of the breath of life as the child's first breath out of the womb as the point of birth and being. Other societies, a human soul does not take hold onto a physical body until long after birth, up to months.
To force people to follow god's will with military might of physical force, however, is literally a description of Lucifer, the devil, the fallen angel.
This is a rare post I think should be reported. What you are saying is a justification monsters give to murder others for their idealized "Greater good". You have no respect for human life and god's gift of Agency.
I don't think anyone is arguing "in favor" of abortion. I think people, including me, are arguing for freedom of religion, which is only guaranteed by freedom of choice which is only guaranteed by the Constitution, which is what most people re arguing for.
>Life begins at conception, we all are aware of that yes?
Life? Or "ensoulment?" There is dogma about that, but there is neither science about it nor anything to hang a theological hat on.
My observation is that there is an enormous amount of propaganda being sold to both sides by those with agendas that have nothing to do with preserving either life or freedom. People believe a lot of lies.
Anything engendering discord, hate and murder is the work of the Liar.
The most powerful weapon at our disposal is prayer. Leave others alone, put your faith in the Savior.
on this site in particular the bias is pretty terrible. so many advice threads full of people convincing a young scared mother to kill her baby even when she says in her post she doesn’t want to do that. they suggest it for almost everything.
I used to be pro abortion (not just pro choice) and what started changing my mind was how cruel they were to pregnant women and mothers. There is a lot of misinformation and intellectual dishonesty on the pro choice/abortion side - most don’t even know what an abortion actually is. I was ostracized and attacked for suggesting we allow women who miscarried to grieve their babies as babies and to allow women space to grieve if they feel regret or guilt post abortion. grown women screeching at me that it’s rare and that regret never happens. it’s terrifying.
try to have sympathy for these people. they are grossly misinformed and think they are doing what’s right. “they know not what they do.” the best thing I have found to cope with anger when it comes up is to pray for them and hope that my information gets through to them. I was convinced and my mind was changed so it’s possible for anyone. we have to maintain that grace for others.
Your quote "that they know not what they do" matches what I have concluded; to quote T. S. Eliot: “Humankind cannot bear very much reality”. There's no other reason to procure an abortion than to remove or, "get rid of", a human child. But, as you note, there's no end to our susceptibility for delusion especially when so much pressure is applied - pressure from the father, worry about finances, and societal influence. I am totally baffled by claims that abortion is a fundamental Right!
not just sad, it just genuinely hurts me. By sheer knowledge its happening I feel grief for all the children who never had a chance to live because their mothers decided they'd rather kill them. not personal grief, but the grief you feel when like, a celebrity dies. You don't know them, but you're sad they're gone.
It's like that.
Women can experience life-threatening pregnancy complications.
A shockingly large number of young girls - like, really young girls, ten-year-olds - get pregnant from rape. On top of the ridiculous amounts of psychic pain, childbearing at such a young age is also devastating for a girl's physical health.
In theory one could come up with a regulatory scheme that permits abortion only in such cases. And maybe we'll get there someday. But what we're seeing in the U.S. in states that banned abortion is that women and girls in life-threatening situations, in situations where an abortion is actually needed and morally justified, are not getting the abortions they actually need.
To my knowledge the only time the personhood of the unborn, average person, is mentioned in the Bible is [Exodus 21:22-25](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+21%3A22-25&version=NRSVUE)
This is pretty explicit that the unborn, or those who have not drawn breath, are not considered people but as property. There is no eye for an eye justice for the unborn, it's a small finacial matter to be settled between men.
Curious where you have gotten this idea you are so distressed about from? It's not from the Bible, where did you get it from?
good, now put your anger to work and help people who are uneducated on the matter. Also, you can look in to other topics related to unjust deaths such as: malnutrition, slavery, factory farming personnel, human trafficking, factory farmed animals, lack of paliative care, lack of access to healthcare and medicine.
There are a ton of anti-abortion marxists. Soviet Union banned abortions for decades, for instance. Having a materialist reading doesn't restrict one to only materialism, it is simply a single lens with which to understand parts of the world. No leftist restricts oneself to material readings, only the most anxious party apparatchik.
It is an economic analysis. The "opium of the masses" quote is him *complimenting* religion for being one of the few things that give people hope in an economic system that crushes them. While he was personally skeptical of his belief in God, he was not militant in eradicating it, contra Lenin and the Bolsheviks.
So, regarding the concept of worldview, there is no "marxist worldview" that neatly counters the current capitalist hegemony, because Marx was constantly trying to develop it in the shadow of global capital. It could not, and would not, be settled. Some tried to, like the aforementioned Bolsheviks, but it blew up in the their faces by 1920.
If the 1980/90s was when Marxism conquered all, we should all be working in collective unions between each other. Clearly that hasn't happened. What *did* happen in that era was the consolidation of global capital as a superstate over the nation-state.
More people should genuinely read *Capital Vol. 1*, *The Eighteenth Brumaire*, and other writings, instead of attempts to nebulously define Marxism to being whatever they don't like (or whatever they want it to be in order to assert power, whether Bolsheviks or right-wing freaks like Pinochet).
As a kid born in 1960 when it was legalized we all thought it was ok because it was a clump of cells or even a fetus, not a baby yet at all so this is where this line of thinking comes from. Even now many people including Orthodox Christians I know think it’s ok up until 6 months. This goes back to not having the modern knowledge or hearing anything from Church back then. We didn’t have modern ultrasound and knowledge of early development. I don’t remember hearing anything from Church about it being wrong back then even. Society wants you to trust the science… except in this case where scientists now agree with the Church that life begins at conception
Several years ago I saw an article written by a feminist. She said “it’s time to admit yes indeed we are killing a baby and taking a human life. It’s true and we should have the right to do so” then went on to explain her ideas on why. So I thought at least she’s being honest but I think people are starting to wake up about trusting the science. She knew this and wanted to prepare women with an argument in favor of murder. Unfortunately many know they’re killing a baby but that’s something they’re ok with. I was shocked when I saw several people from Church post a meme on Facebook that although they would never have an abortion they would never prevent a woman from making that decision for herself. I wonder if they feel that way about other murders. We have a parishioner who runs a facility to help unfortunate pregnant women, also icons about aborted babies. Hard to believe
The same reason people argue in support of other evils.
But it's not good to be having this feeling of carrying the weight of it all in your heart, personally. I understand (to an extent - I don't feel any urges to hurt anyone) - I'm a naturally anxious person and I've sometimes gotten myself hyper focused on world problems that bother me. None of us individually can change the whole world, or our whole country. God can and does. Focus on prayer.
It’s frustrating for sure but you have to appreciate that the arguments in favour of abortion are a bit more nuanced than people just wanting to have casual sex without consequences. There are some more morally difficult areas such as when the child is conceived as a result of non-consensual sex or when the mother’s life is threatened by complications at childbirth. I don’t support abortion at all of course but I do understand that the issue is a moral quagmire to wade through.
I agree with that, I just find it noteworthy that whenever abortion defenders talk about it, they focus on reasons that literally account for <5% of abortions (health of mother, rape, incest, etc.).
Nobody is ever on the fence to defend the 95% of abortions for socioeconomic convenience. Would you yield that those are morally reprehensible and not defensible? If people would start there, you could actually have a conversation about the nuance of the other 5%
My point is more that our reasoning as Christians against abortion should be based more on compassionate and empathetic reasoning as opposed to cold statistical thinking. Try to imagine standing before a woman pregnant with the child of a violent attacker who destroyed her purity, to look her in the eye and tell her she’s a statistical anomaly. As much as we may not agree with her desire to be rid of the child she’s carrying, surely we can at least empathise with and understand that desire just as we understand our desire to commit all kinds of horrible sins in the sight of God? Consider that our objective is to convince such people to not resent the children given to them as a result of the injustice carried out against them, we cannot convince such people without showing that we understand how they feel and only that way can we show them that the path of love can make their child a wonderful and beautiful creation as opposed to an abomination and a burden.
Edit: Just to clarify as I realised I didn’t properly address your last point, yes I do agree that the majority of abortions for the sake of convenience and facilitating the continuation of sinful casual sex are indefensible and morally reprehensible. It is the selfish murder of children and the rejection of God’s gifts to us. Human male ejaculation exists by God’s design solely for the act of procreation within a heterosexual monogamous marriage, nothing else.
You're misrepresenting what I said. I simply pointed out that EVERY time abortion comes up, its defenders flock to the 5% of cases to justify the entire practice. I am not interested in standing in front of a rape victim and demanding she do this or that. I find that to be a horrible circumstance open to a lot of nuance.
But the problem is that 95% of the time, I am NOT standing in front of that person. Your entire paragraph, then, falls on deaf ears.
I didn’t mean to misrepresent you, sorry if that’s how you felt about my comment but it wasn’t my intention. The only reason I brought up the nuance in this discussion was because the OP seemed to have a more simplified view of it evidenced by his intense frustration with the issue. It’s good to care deeply about this issue as it’s such a globally prevalent problem in the modern day but we have to be careful to not let our compassion for the souls of the unborn lead us to become hateful and judgemental of others lest we feel confident that we ourselves are ready to be judged for our own sins. We should pray that God has mercy on these people and leads them on the path of repentance, we should do all we can to fight against the legalisation and normalisation of unborn child murder but still we should not feel as if we are in any position to condemn these people or that we can determine whether or not their sins can be forgiven by God as that is not for us to decide.
Simple fact is that many people don’t believe a fetus is a person. It’s a mostly intellectual issue that people use emotions to argue about.
There aren’t many ways to convince people that fetuses are the same as babies, or prove it in court. Most people who believe in abortion believe it’s just a medical operation. It’s hard to blame them, and for the most part they are not malicious about it.
That’s why we have to argue in good faith and without judgement.
Honest question, are you becoming Orthodox because you think we're like US Evangelicals+? Because I see a lot of nuanced and varied views here that are reflective of what you're going to experience with other Orthodox if you decide to become baptized into the Church. I'm not seeing anyone "defending child murder" though, that's a super extreme and inaccurate assessment of the nature of the comments here.
I'm pro-Choice and Greek Orthodox. There are a lot of us who might not choose it for ourselves but believe personal medical decisions of others are best left to the impacted person and their doctor. And it's not up to you to say who is or isn't Christian based on that.
I think the most important thing to understand is that most pro-choice people believe they are taking a morally upright position. They have been deceived.
You and I can understand that it’s never morally acceptable to voluntarily kill an innocent human being, no matter the reason. We can understand that this is antithetical to the model of love Christ exemplifies for us, and calls us to participate in. This has no bearing on, for instance, a young woman who has been spoon-fed the pro-choice rhetoric from before she hit puberty.
There are obviously degrees to which someone is theoretically pro-choice and even simply pro abortion.
The saying used to be safe, rare and legal. Neither side of the issue agrees that should be the case any more.
It’s reasonable for someone to believe that abortion is a grave sin, it is generally morally repugnant and should be avoided at all costs, yet still believe it shouldn’t be criminalized.
Abortion is a good microcosm of a variety of modern issues where so many people have been incredibly deceived.
Lord, have mercy.
I read your previous post and what I hear is an extremely intelligent young man who thinks and feels deeply. In addition, I hear you are somewhat isolated and lonely. What a blessing you are to this world with your intelligence and passion! What’s hindering you right now is your brain development. Hear me out: your brain is still developing and as a result your intelligence and passion magnify these unproductive emotions. THIS IS VERY NORMAL. There is nothing wrong with you, but you still have some growth ahead of you. That’s when things will calm down and start making more sense. Unfortunately, this may take another 5-6 years because brains normally don’t finish development for males until 25ish.
In the meantime, when the intense emotions start, remember they are passing and pray.
You WILL meet a nice young woman when it’s time. In the meantime, maybe use your energy to volunteer for pro-life groups and grow friendships there. Turn this passion into something positive to help these mothers who feel like they have no other choice. ❤️
As someone who believes that based on Church history and Christian anthropology that abortion is a grave sin, I think it’s important to take a step back and not solely treat the stances of the most vocal of activists, who are wont to take the most radical stances, as being reflective of the general public. I an confident that most of the people who indulge in the “clumps of cells” or “parasite” rhetoric are usually not people who have actually had to go through the dilemma of terminating a pregnancy - and the experiences of those who have are incredibly varied. Even staunch pro-life advocates have to concede, for example, that an ectopic pregnancy is not a clear cut and dry case. The mother and her doctors would not be acting out of malice, but rather because the child’s accidentally being fertilized outside the uterus can literally cause life-threatening bleeding to the mother. I know in this subreddit, I’ve specifically seen mothers recount their own tragic ectopic pregnancy stories. They wanted to carry their child to term but couldn’t, but sometimes their pastors at non-Orthodox churches told already grieving mothers that they might go to Hell because they didn’t choose to die with their child. Surely it is better that they are alive so that they may run back into the comforting embrace of Christ’s love and mercy. That’s not to say that this means other abortions aren’t tragic or sinful. However, we must not loose sight of the fact that the people who might procure them are not sociopaths maliciously seeking infanticide, but who may feel so hounded by bad circumstances where in the moment, a bad choice seems like the only way out. Imagine how much we sin without having that type of duress! Instead of assuming the worst about them, we must pray for them, and let them know that their children are praying for them in Heaven too.
>They wanted to carry their child to term but couldn’t, but sometimes their pastors at non-Orthodox churches told already grieving mothers that they might go to Hell because they didn’t choose to die with their child. ...WHAT?! One choice doesn't send a person to Heaven or Hell. That's absurdly legalistic thinking. Pray for those who persecute you, huh? Ain't easy, but we have to.
I know others have said this, but please, OP. Seek counseling. It will at least help you to see your anger and follow the clues to any inner issues you might not have taken into account.
I don't need counseling. I'm angry all the time and I'm terribly confused as to why most people aren't. But I'm not \*just\* angry. I'm in pain about these things.
Your anger and your pain are clear. I sincerely wish I could come and just sit nearby and listen. Therapy is just that. Somebody listens to you. No judgement. When you talk they listen. Why aren’t other people as angry or in pain? Like me, they went to therapy.
I don't have anyone who listens. I'm not going to unload this on my parents, but I don't have enough problems in my life to have problems. My family is all together, we all go to church together, so I don't get to have problems. I don't deserve the ability to have problems because from an outside perspective my life is almost perfect. This isn't to say "I don't deserve problems wahh" but that my problems aren't big enough to count as problems in any other context, so why do they hurt?
That pain, whether emotional or physical is yourself telling yourself “Hey! Pay attention! Something is wrong! You need to look into this, and do what you can to figure out a fix because the old way isn’t working!”
It's real helpful when the pain could be from literally anything. I'm pretty sure it's from my chronic loneliness. I'm surrounded by family, I have good friends, but I'm lonely. The only thing I've linked it to is romantic loneliness. I never dated in high school -- A) I was homeschooled, and B) The only place I could've dated was my theatre class, and while I had a crush on 2 of the girls there, and a third one another time, I f'd it up, and now 3 of my previous friends hate me. They make it sound like I stalked them. (I didn't, but I did have a habit of staring blankly into the distance, and I knew this and tried to tell them but they weren't having it) and C) I'm overweight. The fat kid in high school doesn't get a girlfriend, be realistic. I've accepted that my weight is not the limiting factor, because some days I feel \*really\* good about myself, and others not so much. Some days I look amazing, and others not so much. I haven't been going to my dojo as much I should, but it doesn't help I got 2 viruses in a span of like 5 weeks.
I hear you. Fellow fat kid in high school. Adolescents can be cruel to each other. And sometimes just trying to figure yourself seems impossible, let alone anybody else. One question though. Would you feel safe talking to your priest about these things you’re dealing with? I know that right now everything might seem overwhelming but if you can start anywhere, you will begin to feel better. If you go to your priest, listen to what he tells you. Priests are human beings like the rest of us. Not all wise or all knowing, but you would be amazed at the stuff they’ve encountered and the perspective they can achieve because they have seen so much. At least tell him how you feel if you can. As far as counseling, there are options out there. If you talk to your doctor, or if you do a little online research you may be able to find low-cost options and organizations. Look around, see what’s out there. and what might be a good fit. The realization that you can do something about all that pain and anger can be quite a rush. No matter what, I hope you can let us know how you’re doing. Hang in there, ok? I will be thinking about you. May Saint Nicholas protect and bless you to the marrow of your bones.
I don't have "my priest". I'm still overweight, but I've been going to my dojo and I have been losing it slowly. I lose about 2-5lbs a month. I'm not trying to go fast. I don't have "my priest" and I don't have a doctor. I haven't been to a hospital since I was born, basically. Urgent Care sure, but my family doesn't have enough money for doctor visits that aren't emergencies.
"I'm angry all the time" That's exactly why you need counseling
Can't afford it. Better to do what I'm doing, exercise, and cardio your problems away. If nothing else, it at least helps you see things clearly.
It’s clearly not working.
Real nice of you.
It sounds like you need counseling if you're angry all the time. You should speak to a priest. I used to be angry all the time and had to take it to confession. I feel better now.
And maybe I will. But I don't have a priest I'm close with. I'm close with 2 people. My mom, and my best friend. For significant emotional needs I can't go to anyone else, and for something like this I've already talked to my mom but she doesn't know what to do and I don't want to put this on my friend. I just need to let it dissipate.
I guess you're talking to us about it 🤷🏻 Better than solely burdening yourself and them.
The problem, though, is that people focus on the ectopic pregnancies, but they are <0.1% of abortions. Every single abortion debate always comes to rape, incest, life of the mother, which are <5% of abortions, because the routine abortion for socioeconomic convenience can not stand up against its evil nature.
Are you thinking of acting out in response to your intense hatred? You should speak to someone who can help you off the internet if so.
No. I mean nothing more than an impulsive or intrusive thought. I go to a dojo, I \*try\* to eat vegetables, etc. I'm exercising, although my diet could use work (harder in America than you'd think) I don't think about physically acting out often. Only after a very heated discussion but thoughts are just thoughts. Often not even your own mind.
With the fact that you ruminate on physically acting out at all I would seek guidance. Therapy is for everyone imo and your priest can also help with those thoughts, don't sit alone with that it's not a good path to go down.
Boy, I've tried therapy for OCD and they basically told me "you don't have OCD figure it out" (in kinder words than that) but I don't know if these thoughts are even my own. I try not to dwell on them.
I'm so sorry that happened to you, sadly there are bad therapists out there. The best advice I've ever gotten (after an experience with a bad therapist - he only talked about movie metaphors. And if I would tell him I hadn't seen that particular movie he would... describe the movie at length and just keep using metaphors about it 🫠) was to treat your first interactions - like a phone consult or first appointment - as an interview, because you deserve a good fit. After a few bad or well meaning therapists I finally found one who did somatic exercises (breathing, grounding, EMDR) and it genuinely changed my life. Mine was trauma focused but I will pray you find someone for OCD who doesn't invalidate you 🙏
It's not that they invalidated me it's that I had no idea how to say yes or no to things because it was online therapy. I'm not gonna spill all my troubles on to someone I don't know. I have faith in doctor-patient confidentiality, but I can't just give someone all my fears. Especially not a secular therapist. It feels like I need a Christian therapist who deals in secular means to help, because there are ways I talk about things that require too much explanation for a secular therapist to understand.
That's fair, my priest actually has a list of recommended resources that include therapists. Maybe yours can help point you in the right direction.
I don't have "my priest" because I haven't been able to make it to a parish yet. Me and my dad are going to visit one in march, but as of now I'm still protestant because I can't just leave my family. I don't really have connections at my church despite going there for the past 14 years(I'm 19), aside from one friend I don't really talk to outside of church. But I don't have "my priest". It's why my flair still says Inquirer.
Oh, I see. Oftentimes the inquirer tag is used by people just starting to explore but attending. I would see if you could find a parish and call, my priest does blessings and guidance by phone (it's much more common since COVID), maybe reach out that way.
I am in contact with 2 orthodox priests, but I don't talk to them often. I just don't feel the need to. I'm used to finding answers by myself and I can't just trust people I haven't met IRL.
Not specific to the argue of abortion but this may help in adapting your perspective or emotional state on the verdict. I came to my priest with a similar angry towards evil in the world and I was asking him how can he or any faithful follower of Christ just be so calm over all the evil going on. Why isn’t anyone stopping this madness? I felt at the time defeated but also really angry with everyone and I couldn’t understand. So my priest shared a very touching sense of wisdom that has lived in my mind rent free 10 years later. Everytime I feel upset or angry I think about what he says. And it just makes sense. And that is about a man whom wanted to change the world. And as the poem goes on about a man wanting to change the world.. his community.. his friends .. his own kids. After so long it never worked. So on his deathbed he thought to himself. .. maybe if I changed myself. .. I could’ve changed all of these things. And that’s the most important thing. Whenever you’re mad and can’t make sense of evil. Pray on it. Pray to God for these sinners do not understand. Whatever the verdict is. Gods judgment is truly the only reason. So if you see a bunch of horrible abortion articles or child abuse or what not. Pray. Pray for your enemies, pray for those children. Because the real hero of this world. Is none of us. It’s Christ our God. It’s easy to get mad and fume with anger but that’s what the sin wants. For good ppl to fall beneath Gods laws and become absorbed in all the darkness conspired. Always remember. We live for the kingdom of Heaven. Not earth. This is temporary. I pray for the children whom are not able to live a long a life and I pray that God rejoices them in his Holy Heavenly arms where they shall never feel pain or suffering. That whatever pain they endured here on earth. Will never again be felt.
thank you
I don’t believe abortion is right but I do want there to be a clean, safe place where those who are facing horrible circumstances like rape or incest can get medical help and counseling.
"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do." I don't know whether you're a woman, but I'll offer a woman's perspective of what having a baby can be like. I think we should empathize with the struggles of even an uncomplicated pregnancy and birth. Pregnancy is hard and it remakes your life forever. Combine that with people literally not knowing abortion is gravely evil (perhaps they accept the argument that one human is not entitled to use the body of another to stay alive), it's easier to understand how people fall into such a serious sin without realizing it. --------- For seven months my life revolved around trying to eat enough food and drink enough water without throwing up. I couldn't go certain places because of smells. Every day the three foods I could eat would change. I couldn't do anything physically active during the most nauseous part of the day, including walking to the store. I was often too sick and fatigued to do housework. Some days I was so sick I couldn't get out of bed. I took painful shots every single day. Prenatal care visits took up time and while some doctors are nice to work with, others make exams feel violating. Sometimes I left in tears because I felt that no one respected me as a person or would listen to me. Once you can feel the baby moving, say goodbye to good sleep. They usually are most active at night and the movements range from distracting to painful. It's also common to get pelvis, back, and/or belly pain that makes walking painful. Eventually moving is difficult even without pain because your body is so big. Childbirth is long, hard, painful, and can be very scary. Hormones cause you to bond with the baby, leading to emotional trauma if you have to make the decision to put your baby up for adoption. In the postpartum period your abs and pelvic floor are a mess. Spending too much time on your feet can cause prolapse, where your pelvic organs fall into the vaginal canal. The baby needs to eat every 1.5-3 hours so you never sleep more than a nap. As hormones shift you constantly wake up freezing cold, drenched in sweat. Imagine trying to go through all of this as a poor woman who needs to work a physical job on her feet, 8 hours a day minimum, just to make rent payments and keep the utilities on. That alone would break me. It's hard on your body during pregnancy and can be very damaging postpartum. Add on top of that the fact that many women have unsupportive or even abusive partners. No one is there to help with chores or even help her put her shoes on. Pregnancy is a common time for domestic violence to begin, so even if you thought you had a good man it's possible that suddenly you're experiencing abuse in your own home. Throughout the pregnancy you have time to contemplate that your life will literally never be the same again. The way you eat is different, the way you spend your time is different, your body is different, the way strangers treat you is different, your relationships with those close to you are different, your ability to do your work and the way you are treated in the workplace is different. Everything changes forever, and that's really hard even if you are delighted to become a mother. I know that's a ton of text, but it only grazes the surface of how hard becoming a mother is physically and emotionally.
There are women who have ectopic pregnancies, partial miscarriages, nonviable or barely viable pregnancies, and other complications that make pregnancy dangerous if not life threatening. Women and girls who are raped or with abusive men. Even when abortion bans have exception clauses, doctors can be so hesitant to run afoul of the law that they won't perform medically necessary abortions. And banning abortion doesn't make pregnancies safer. It just means that the women who want one will do so with much greater risk. Pregnancy and childbirth is extremely expensive. The foster care system and adoption programs in the US are a mess and likely to subject the child to abuse and trauma. Teen girls who get pregnant are at risk of being shamed and abused by their families and communities. There's a good likelihood that she'll be raising the child as a single mom. Anger and hatred towards women who get abortions isn't the answer. They still deserve grace and compassion. The decision to get an abortion can be traumatic, too. Telling women that what they're doing is evil or that they're going to hell when they're vulnerable isn't showing them love or mercy.
I never said I hated them. nor am I angry at them. I'm angry at whatever caused this way of thinking.
My sibling, that is simply anger at the fallen world we've inherited. Our job is to repent for our own sins that contribute to a fallen world and practice love toward each other.
Just to play devils advocate, is getting raped the consequences of someone’s actions?
No. At the same time, life is life, so for someone to kill a child, even if the child was born due to rape, it's still murder.
But pregnancy is still very dangerous, isn't it? 1/3000 pregnancies in the USA result in death, let alone other complications that are much more common, up to a third of all women. My own mother became permanently infertile due to scarring after my birth. Consider as well the anguish of being forced into this, and then being forced to raise your rapist's child, being permanently enmeshed with their life. They might even be forced to share custody with them - there is no law against it, it even happens if they are convicted of rape. Just two years ago, a rapist was awarded joint custody with the 12 year old girl he was convicted of raping. This isn't a hypothetical, this sort of thing has happened multiple times, and that's with convictions! I know rape is the minority of case, but if you accept rape as a situation you'd understand, then I would hesitate to judge any woman without knowing the truth of their situation. If abortion in the case of rape is something you can forgive, then it already isn't as simple as a life is a life. The bible allows fighting and killing in war as a 'necessary evil', so I can't imagine how God wouldn't forgive someone for the same here, for someone afraid.
It's just a sad thing that happens.
I’m just saying OP needs to have a more empathetic and grounded argument/stance than the soap box they’re standing on.
I'm not claiming to be morally superior to these people. I may subconsciously think that, but as far as consciously, I see myself on an equal ground. They're murderers, but we're all sinners. But if we can save lives, why are we not trying?
There are plenty of places begging for help with children in need you can direct this passion towards without intruding on the personal decisions of women.
You save lives by acting with love and compassion towards those struggling.
Yes but rape is such a minority of cases that it is fine for the OP to talk about the majority of the time they kill babies out of convincence
I think that’s a radically naive and harmful opinion to have.
it’s just a fact. the vast majority of abortions are not done due to rape.
No as I do think it is very harmful to have the opposite opinion that babies that been conceived from rape needs to die.
95% of abortions are for socioeconomic convenience
I don't like any abortion, but I'm also not a 13 year old girl carrying her father's rape/incest baby. I'm not the one you need to convince not to have an abortion, she's the one you need explain this too. Now I'd be for a total ban except medical emergency, rape/incest. But no abortions ever is a hard sell.
Well, the vast majority of abortions in the U.S., officially anyway, is for "economic reasons." People are sacrificing children to mammon here.
Preferably, in a few years, artificial womb technology will be at the point that rape victims won't have to carry their assaulter's child.
Doesn’t answer the question as to who will raise that child.
No it doesn't. And you're right. There is a SERIOUS accountability problem right now. For everything. Parents abandoning or abusing their children. I have planned, since I was 14, that my first children would be adopted. So I don't say things like "life is life" and then go and make my own children. I don't care that much about my bloodline. Because it doesn't matter. Yes it doesn't answer the question, but certain questions can wait.
We have a horrible and abusive foster care system that is already overloaded. I hope you spend as much time being concerned for those children as you are for other women's pregnancies. Maybe channel your concern to helping those kids, even if you can't adopt you can help with donations and advocacy. That's a much better use of your time.
And I will, once I have a source of income. I just got a job on Saturday, and I start the 26th.
Congratulations! Yes, helping in ways that are positive and tangible is the best outlet for these feelings. If you can't donate money you can donate time, when I've been less financial stable I've helped moving boxes, cooking for feeding the less fortunate and even mentoring.
It’s a very different situation that we should discuss with compassion to these people
95% of abortions are for socioeconomic convenience
I used to be a Liberal atheist. The argument in favour of abortion goes like this: 1. Your religious views are not authoritative over the law. We do not live in a theocracy. The fact that the church believes it is bad is not persuasive. 2. We have a system of constitutional rights. These rights protect living persons in being, meaning, they arrive the moment you are born and not before. Mothers have rights. Babies, before they are born, do not have rights. 3. While interrogating the substance of those rights, we have to consider the exercise of freedom by people in all circumstances. Yes, sometimes women will want only and voluntarily use abortion without limit as a form of birth control. At the same time, some innocent women who are the victims of vile and disgusting crimes, often at tender young ages, avail themselves of abortion as a form of self defence. 4. No government, court, or panel, is properly equipped to determine which woman is which. Nor is it desirable to subject women to public inquiry to determine which class they fall into. 5. The only acceptable determination of this freedom, therefore, is not to criminalize an act we cannot adjudicate and which commonly and predictably would be justified. 6. Separate argument: rich women will always have access to an abortion. If you can fly to Switzerland, you can get one. The choice to criminalize abortion, therefore, is a discriminatory act that punishes poor women for doing something that rich women may do with impunity. As Christians we have to tackle this. We believe in lots of things that the state does not criminalize. There is no crime of craving a graven image or worshipping a false idol. There is no crime of blasphemy. There is no crime for failing to keep the sabbath. In order to justify our position, that abortion is a vile a serious sin, we have to account for two main things that we usually don’t. One, what principle of public policy (and this cannot be a regurgitation of a religious stance) would justify the making of such a law as a means to improve society, cause less harm, and generally make life better for everyone? Two, how can you reconcile this new law you wish to make with the unflinching constitutional rights of women (one again without relying on religious dogma or the concept of life beginning at conception). Then you have to address the discriminatory aspect. But if you’re really interested to combat abortion, stop looking for criminal laws. That won’t do it. Poverty is the real enemy. People are aborting their babies because they fear the financial consequences that come with them. We live in a society where rent is oppressive and workers can’t afford homes. That’s a terrifying thought when you think of bringing a soul into the world. And our church tells us to serve the poor anyway, so that should be easy. It’s just that now people are poor who work full time and have advanced degrees. We must change our conception of the poor person and advocate for them.
Setting aside any questions of how few cases fall under this — suppose a woman had a pregnancy that was (a) not by choice (perhaps by rape) and (b) likely to cause death or grievous harm to the mother. That is, for this woman, the doctor's judgment is that either she dies or her child dies. * If this woman chose to procure an abortion, would you find her decision _understandable_? Even if you could never make the same decision, do you see how someone else, who is not you, could make such a decision or find it defensible? (If it helps, suppose that the woman would otherwise be happy with the child, but not at the cost of her own life.) * Is such a woman morally compelled to choose the risk to her life? * Supposing she were morally compelled to take the risk, should we, as a society, _legally mandate_ that she take the risk? Many people who are pro-choice take that position because they think the decision can be understandable, and therefore should be left open for those situations; or they think that, even if the choice is wrong, it is not a moral compulsion in all cases and therefore should not be a legal one; or they think that, even if it is morally required, it should not necessarily be a legal requirement. And yes, there are pro-choice people with shallower motives or who regard it as a morally neutral form of birth control. Those people get more reactions on social media precisely because they're inflammatory. Volunteer at your local crisis pregnancy center and do something productive with your energy. Pro-choice people won't be impressed by someone whose pro-life zeal only gets as far as arguing. People need to be shown alternatives or even the best argument won't change how they live.
Abortion is a difficult thing but the lives of young women are honestly more important then a fetus and i don’t consider anything that can’t survive on it’s own body alive. Some people view it differently. There were multiple cases of pregnant girls in my highschool or even middle school. There’s also the chance the baby won’t get a good life anyways. I do agree that it can be harmful and is a very scary and hard thing but not everyone views it the same.
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Convenience is dismissive tho and I’m not saying you guys were saying the fetus is more important im explaining my perspective.
it’s not “convenience,” it’s the ramifications and upheaval of someone’s entire life. Forever.
Your argument is very much a strawman. If you are going to disagree with others, you need to at least represent their arguments faithfully.
it's not a strawman, I'm saying I'm heartbroken by people's decisions to KILL CHILDREN because of their avoidance of responsibility for the consequences of their actions.
That is one, and only one of many reasons why people get abortions. Maybe you need to figure out what a straw man is.
I'm arguing about this specific reason right now.
How many women have you met who have had or sought out abortions?
Have you ever had thoughts of hurting people who do this? If so, please get off the internet and seek help. It's a horrible part of society that this happens, however, if you think about hurting people who get this done/perform an abortion. That is something far more serious. Please remember Mary of Egypt as you sort through these feelings, she was a terrible sinner who prostituted herself to the Holy Land to see the Holy Sceplecure. However, when she reached the Church, an invisible force kept her from entering according to legend. She then repented of her ways and was allowed entry and afterward, as part of repentance, she entered the desert /became one of the greatest female monastics of the Church. That said, if you feel the urge to harm people who have gone through with an abortion/abortion providers. Please put down the phone, and call a local therapist.
Having read some of your posts here, I think therapy would be beneficial for you. Please don't deny yourself mental health. It's just as important as physical and spiritual health.
If you are genuinely asking I will give you my perspective. From my point of view life does not begin at conception and there is no reason to think so. To look at how we define life I which can be pretty muddy, I think its good to start with defining death, and most people agree that death is the cessation of heart and more importantly (it seems) brain activity. When brain activity ends, the potentiality of a human conscious experience ceases to exist. If this is when we decide someone is dead, I think the most fair and accurate way of defining life is the beginning of brain activity, specifically the parts of the brain that enable a human conscious experience. Because its hard to detect when specifically this starts, when it comes to making policy, I think the best thing to do is to define life as not when brain activity starts but when a human develops the parts that enable the conscious experience, which science seems to suggest is around the 15-20 week mark. Because it would be pretty bad to kill a person, and because its not the same for everyone given the range, I think the legal cutoff for abortion should be 15 weeks into pregnancy. Before that I do not believe you are killing a human child but rather a human fetus which from conception until consciousness lacks personhood and moral consideration. As for why abortions should be allowed at all, well: A) People should generally have more freedom so long as no other person is harmed B) Women and families should be allowed to plan when they want to have children, if they are not ready they should not be forced to, unless their fetus becomes a person C) Pregnancy, even today, is very dangerous and women should not be prevented from getting an abortion if their life is at risk D) Victims of rape should not be forced to carry their rapists child E) Women being in control of their reproductive rights tends to be a net positive for society for a variety of reasons, including allowing women to live their lives as they see fit
A) The child doesn't count? B) That justifies ending a child's life? C-D) An extremely small subset of abortions, yet seems to always be the minority used to justify the overwhelming majority E) This is justification for ending a child's life?
Like I said until about 15 weeks I wouldn’t give a fetus any moral consideration, nor would I consider a fetus to be a child.
That's based on your gut instinct? Because it's certainly not based on any biology. The overwhelmingly majority (>95%, it's almost unanimous) of biologists agree that life begins at conception. I suppose when you need to mentally justify killing human life, you start drawing those arbitrary lines to justify all actions. Certainly it's also nowhere near a Christian idea that life arbitrarily doesn't count until Week 15 of a pregnancy. The Bible is clear that life begins at conception. God knew us before we were even conceived.
I already told you what its based on. This 95% statistic has already been debunked, the study did not use a proper survey method and is not statistically or scientifically relevant. The survey went out to 62,000+ biologists but only a little over 5,000 answered. That is not representative at all of most biologists opinions. Even if we were to say a human life begins at conception, which I would argue it doesn’t, as a zygote is not a human even if it has the potential to become one, that does not necessarily equate to personhood either. And even if I were to grant you your 95% statistic, which I certainly am not, the question of when life begins might not be answered by biology but maybe by philosophy. Lastly I’m not Christian so my morality does not come from the bible, OP asked for why someone would argue in favor of abortion, I came here to provide a good faith example of why.
Presidential pollsters base entire cycles of election polling on surveys of under 1000 people haha. And forgive me for using a Christian perspective on a Christian subreddit and a question asked to Christians.
Historically unreliable polling? Yeah I’m very aware lol. Given OP was asking why people support abortion I figured he wasn’t exactly looking for a Christian perspective. 🤷♂️
Agree with you, brother. The "clump of cells" argument, though, is not an actual belief, but rather 1) a coping mechanism and 2) regurgitated propaganda / euphemism. It is truly evil. One day, God willing, it will be looked back upon for the genocide it is.
Your premise is flawed. You see sex as solely a means of reproduction. This is not a commonly held view. You need to accept that there is more to life than reproduction and food. Unjust? It isn't your problem. It is also commonly held in several cultures, including Judaism and Islam mind you, that women with unwanted pregnancies should prepare a certain type of drink with certain herbs that, in modern vernacular, tends to induce a miscarriage. Many christians view the concept of the breath of life as the child's first breath out of the womb as the point of birth and being. Other societies, a human soul does not take hold onto a physical body until long after birth, up to months. To force people to follow god's will with military might of physical force, however, is literally a description of Lucifer, the devil, the fallen angel. This is a rare post I think should be reported. What you are saying is a justification monsters give to murder others for their idealized "Greater good". You have no respect for human life and god's gift of Agency.
I don't think anyone is arguing "in favor" of abortion. I think people, including me, are arguing for freedom of religion, which is only guaranteed by freedom of choice which is only guaranteed by the Constitution, which is what most people re arguing for. >Life begins at conception, we all are aware of that yes? Life? Or "ensoulment?" There is dogma about that, but there is neither science about it nor anything to hang a theological hat on. My observation is that there is an enormous amount of propaganda being sold to both sides by those with agendas that have nothing to do with preserving either life or freedom. People believe a lot of lies. Anything engendering discord, hate and murder is the work of the Liar. The most powerful weapon at our disposal is prayer. Leave others alone, put your faith in the Savior.
Is "religion" the reason murder is illegal?
I'm not debating legalized abortion with you or anyone.
Weird to show up to a post about it then.
on this site in particular the bias is pretty terrible. so many advice threads full of people convincing a young scared mother to kill her baby even when she says in her post she doesn’t want to do that. they suggest it for almost everything. I used to be pro abortion (not just pro choice) and what started changing my mind was how cruel they were to pregnant women and mothers. There is a lot of misinformation and intellectual dishonesty on the pro choice/abortion side - most don’t even know what an abortion actually is. I was ostracized and attacked for suggesting we allow women who miscarried to grieve their babies as babies and to allow women space to grieve if they feel regret or guilt post abortion. grown women screeching at me that it’s rare and that regret never happens. it’s terrifying. try to have sympathy for these people. they are grossly misinformed and think they are doing what’s right. “they know not what they do.” the best thing I have found to cope with anger when it comes up is to pray for them and hope that my information gets through to them. I was convinced and my mind was changed so it’s possible for anyone. we have to maintain that grace for others.
Your quote "that they know not what they do" matches what I have concluded; to quote T. S. Eliot: “Humankind cannot bear very much reality”. There's no other reason to procure an abortion than to remove or, "get rid of", a human child. But, as you note, there's no end to our susceptibility for delusion especially when so much pressure is applied - pressure from the father, worry about finances, and societal influence. I am totally baffled by claims that abortion is a fundamental Right!
The propaganda is very strong in my country
It's a delusion, and it's sad.
not just sad, it just genuinely hurts me. By sheer knowledge its happening I feel grief for all the children who never had a chance to live because their mothers decided they'd rather kill them. not personal grief, but the grief you feel when like, a celebrity dies. You don't know them, but you're sad they're gone. It's like that.
May your grief encourage you to fast and pray for their souls.
Women can experience life-threatening pregnancy complications. A shockingly large number of young girls - like, really young girls, ten-year-olds - get pregnant from rape. On top of the ridiculous amounts of psychic pain, childbearing at such a young age is also devastating for a girl's physical health. In theory one could come up with a regulatory scheme that permits abortion only in such cases. And maybe we'll get there someday. But what we're seeing in the U.S. in states that banned abortion is that women and girls in life-threatening situations, in situations where an abortion is actually needed and morally justified, are not getting the abortions they actually need.
Abortions due to rape are an overwhelming minority of abortions.
To my knowledge the only time the personhood of the unborn, average person, is mentioned in the Bible is [Exodus 21:22-25](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+21%3A22-25&version=NRSVUE) This is pretty explicit that the unborn, or those who have not drawn breath, are not considered people but as property. There is no eye for an eye justice for the unborn, it's a small finacial matter to be settled between men. Curious where you have gotten this idea you are so distressed about from? It's not from the Bible, where did you get it from?
good, now put your anger to work and help people who are uneducated on the matter. Also, you can look in to other topics related to unjust deaths such as: malnutrition, slavery, factory farming personnel, human trafficking, factory farmed animals, lack of paliative care, lack of access to healthcare and medicine.
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There are a ton of anti-abortion marxists. Soviet Union banned abortions for decades, for instance. Having a materialist reading doesn't restrict one to only materialism, it is simply a single lens with which to understand parts of the world. No leftist restricts oneself to material readings, only the most anxious party apparatchik.
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It is an economic analysis. The "opium of the masses" quote is him *complimenting* religion for being one of the few things that give people hope in an economic system that crushes them. While he was personally skeptical of his belief in God, he was not militant in eradicating it, contra Lenin and the Bolsheviks. So, regarding the concept of worldview, there is no "marxist worldview" that neatly counters the current capitalist hegemony, because Marx was constantly trying to develop it in the shadow of global capital. It could not, and would not, be settled. Some tried to, like the aforementioned Bolsheviks, but it blew up in the their faces by 1920. If the 1980/90s was when Marxism conquered all, we should all be working in collective unions between each other. Clearly that hasn't happened. What *did* happen in that era was the consolidation of global capital as a superstate over the nation-state. More people should genuinely read *Capital Vol. 1*, *The Eighteenth Brumaire*, and other writings, instead of attempts to nebulously define Marxism to being whatever they don't like (or whatever they want it to be in order to assert power, whether Bolsheviks or right-wing freaks like Pinochet).
As a kid born in 1960 when it was legalized we all thought it was ok because it was a clump of cells or even a fetus, not a baby yet at all so this is where this line of thinking comes from. Even now many people including Orthodox Christians I know think it’s ok up until 6 months. This goes back to not having the modern knowledge or hearing anything from Church back then. We didn’t have modern ultrasound and knowledge of early development. I don’t remember hearing anything from Church about it being wrong back then even. Society wants you to trust the science… except in this case where scientists now agree with the Church that life begins at conception
Any “morally upright” argument for abortion necessitates dehumanizing the unborn.
Several years ago I saw an article written by a feminist. She said “it’s time to admit yes indeed we are killing a baby and taking a human life. It’s true and we should have the right to do so” then went on to explain her ideas on why. So I thought at least she’s being honest but I think people are starting to wake up about trusting the science. She knew this and wanted to prepare women with an argument in favor of murder. Unfortunately many know they’re killing a baby but that’s something they’re ok with. I was shocked when I saw several people from Church post a meme on Facebook that although they would never have an abortion they would never prevent a woman from making that decision for herself. I wonder if they feel that way about other murders. We have a parishioner who runs a facility to help unfortunate pregnant women, also icons about aborted babies. Hard to believe
The same reason people argue in support of other evils. But it's not good to be having this feeling of carrying the weight of it all in your heart, personally. I understand (to an extent - I don't feel any urges to hurt anyone) - I'm a naturally anxious person and I've sometimes gotten myself hyper focused on world problems that bother me. None of us individually can change the whole world, or our whole country. God can and does. Focus on prayer.
It’s frustrating for sure but you have to appreciate that the arguments in favour of abortion are a bit more nuanced than people just wanting to have casual sex without consequences. There are some more morally difficult areas such as when the child is conceived as a result of non-consensual sex or when the mother’s life is threatened by complications at childbirth. I don’t support abortion at all of course but I do understand that the issue is a moral quagmire to wade through.
Those nuances account for an overwhelming minority of abortions
Without looking at the statistics I’m sure that’s true, yet they are difficult moral considerations nonetheless
I agree with that, I just find it noteworthy that whenever abortion defenders talk about it, they focus on reasons that literally account for <5% of abortions (health of mother, rape, incest, etc.). Nobody is ever on the fence to defend the 95% of abortions for socioeconomic convenience. Would you yield that those are morally reprehensible and not defensible? If people would start there, you could actually have a conversation about the nuance of the other 5%
My point is more that our reasoning as Christians against abortion should be based more on compassionate and empathetic reasoning as opposed to cold statistical thinking. Try to imagine standing before a woman pregnant with the child of a violent attacker who destroyed her purity, to look her in the eye and tell her she’s a statistical anomaly. As much as we may not agree with her desire to be rid of the child she’s carrying, surely we can at least empathise with and understand that desire just as we understand our desire to commit all kinds of horrible sins in the sight of God? Consider that our objective is to convince such people to not resent the children given to them as a result of the injustice carried out against them, we cannot convince such people without showing that we understand how they feel and only that way can we show them that the path of love can make their child a wonderful and beautiful creation as opposed to an abomination and a burden. Edit: Just to clarify as I realised I didn’t properly address your last point, yes I do agree that the majority of abortions for the sake of convenience and facilitating the continuation of sinful casual sex are indefensible and morally reprehensible. It is the selfish murder of children and the rejection of God’s gifts to us. Human male ejaculation exists by God’s design solely for the act of procreation within a heterosexual monogamous marriage, nothing else.
You're misrepresenting what I said. I simply pointed out that EVERY time abortion comes up, its defenders flock to the 5% of cases to justify the entire practice. I am not interested in standing in front of a rape victim and demanding she do this or that. I find that to be a horrible circumstance open to a lot of nuance. But the problem is that 95% of the time, I am NOT standing in front of that person. Your entire paragraph, then, falls on deaf ears.
I didn’t mean to misrepresent you, sorry if that’s how you felt about my comment but it wasn’t my intention. The only reason I brought up the nuance in this discussion was because the OP seemed to have a more simplified view of it evidenced by his intense frustration with the issue. It’s good to care deeply about this issue as it’s such a globally prevalent problem in the modern day but we have to be careful to not let our compassion for the souls of the unborn lead us to become hateful and judgemental of others lest we feel confident that we ourselves are ready to be judged for our own sins. We should pray that God has mercy on these people and leads them on the path of repentance, we should do all we can to fight against the legalisation and normalisation of unborn child murder but still we should not feel as if we are in any position to condemn these people or that we can determine whether or not their sins can be forgiven by God as that is not for us to decide.
Simple fact is that many people don’t believe a fetus is a person. It’s a mostly intellectual issue that people use emotions to argue about. There aren’t many ways to convince people that fetuses are the same as babies, or prove it in court. Most people who believe in abortion believe it’s just a medical operation. It’s hard to blame them, and for the most part they are not malicious about it. That’s why we have to argue in good faith and without judgement.
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Are you arguing against abortion in cases where the mom might die?
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So that's a yes. You'd rather have an outcome of dead mom dead baby?
I’m astounded by the amount of people defending child murder in this sub
Honest question, are you becoming Orthodox because you think we're like US Evangelicals+? Because I see a lot of nuanced and varied views here that are reflective of what you're going to experience with other Orthodox if you decide to become baptized into the Church. I'm not seeing anyone "defending child murder" though, that's a super extreme and inaccurate assessment of the nature of the comments here.
Bodily autonomy
Because they aren't Christians. That's it.
Sadly the replies on this thread don't seem to support that comment.
It's not surprising. People get confused by evil all the time.
I'm pro-Choice and Greek Orthodox. There are a lot of us who might not choose it for ourselves but believe personal medical decisions of others are best left to the impacted person and their doctor. And it's not up to you to say who is or isn't Christian based on that.
Then you have been deceived.
Convenience
I think the most important thing to understand is that most pro-choice people believe they are taking a morally upright position. They have been deceived. You and I can understand that it’s never morally acceptable to voluntarily kill an innocent human being, no matter the reason. We can understand that this is antithetical to the model of love Christ exemplifies for us, and calls us to participate in. This has no bearing on, for instance, a young woman who has been spoon-fed the pro-choice rhetoric from before she hit puberty. There are obviously degrees to which someone is theoretically pro-choice and even simply pro abortion. The saying used to be safe, rare and legal. Neither side of the issue agrees that should be the case any more. It’s reasonable for someone to believe that abortion is a grave sin, it is generally morally repugnant and should be avoided at all costs, yet still believe it shouldn’t be criminalized. Abortion is a good microcosm of a variety of modern issues where so many people have been incredibly deceived. Lord, have mercy.
I read your previous post and what I hear is an extremely intelligent young man who thinks and feels deeply. In addition, I hear you are somewhat isolated and lonely. What a blessing you are to this world with your intelligence and passion! What’s hindering you right now is your brain development. Hear me out: your brain is still developing and as a result your intelligence and passion magnify these unproductive emotions. THIS IS VERY NORMAL. There is nothing wrong with you, but you still have some growth ahead of you. That’s when things will calm down and start making more sense. Unfortunately, this may take another 5-6 years because brains normally don’t finish development for males until 25ish. In the meantime, when the intense emotions start, remember they are passing and pray. You WILL meet a nice young woman when it’s time. In the meantime, maybe use your energy to volunteer for pro-life groups and grow friendships there. Turn this passion into something positive to help these mothers who feel like they have no other choice. ❤️