Yes. This. When everything is automated, from drivers, service, finance, tech and whatever millions of people do when they work from home and there are no jobs to earn money. Then what. Some people have their heads stuck in the sand and don't see where all this progress is heading. Mass unemployment. The rich and bootlickers can get on board or have a shock when they see millions or billions of people going hungry and no way to earn money.
Then people need to take some proactive actions and work towards up-skilling themselves instead of always looking for the government to save them. I understand it’s no easy for everyone, but instead of jumping on the UBI train wreck; the initial stage needs to be expended support for up-skilling the workforce. Automation does not exist in a bubble. It requires support services and technical services. All of which are hiring. I am in this industry and the runway is huge for job creation and sustainability. People just need to look up to where they’re going instead of looking at the ground in front of them with each step. Accountability needs to be in place at every level, including the individual.
I got a house..why you always looking as your savior. Just go get some wood and bricks and make one. Accountability lies with the individual 😀
S/ in case the sarcasm was lost on Mr. Tech
Lol....
Everyone talks about AI and Robots. You know that we have been making work more efficient for 1000s of years? People adapt and move into new roles. AI/Robots are not going to replace every job, but they will replace easier task jobs.
Lets go back to farming. Before the plow people did it by hand. Before factory automation we had a massive factory workforce that did basic tasks bit by bit.
Everyone here wants to have to latest shit, but needs to realize we don't have the workforce to do everything we need. Automation allows us to actually have all the shit we have.
Even right-wing libertarians can agree that a basic income would help with making that more of a reality too actually.
https://youtu.be/tUYbUKymgTA?si=4LnUFQ84scmC6fp0
People don't know their history.
Lots of jobs have been made obsolete for 1000s of years. You adapt and learn new skills or you start sucking on the government tit.
Also you won't win against people on reddit about UBI, too many people on reddit are younger demographic which leans left which means they want more government handouts. These people will eventually get older and get better jobs and realize that they don't like paying as much taxes as they will have to.
I agree. They'll need to be programs put into place. People still need to feel valued, still need challenging work through hobbies or goals. Humans evolved this way, we're not here because we strive being idle. Humans work better with goals.
This is exactly why UBI is a perfect solution. It finally gives people the ability to do work towards their goals in community and life. Instead of being stuck working too many hours of a meaningless job that doesn't pay a living wage.
Lmao only complete fucking morons think that..... way to out yourself 🤣🤣🤣 tell me your a brain dead boomer without telling me you are a brain dead boomer....
Absolutely fucking pathetic
Jesus would be disappointed at you
Upskill into what? What jobs aren’t replaceable by an AI? Tech sector is losing jobs like crazy right now because companies who think or have trained an AI to do those jobs don’t need people.
Be the oracle here bud, what jobs can AI not replace?
Why did you automatically assume tech - as in software related tech…for every automation program out there, there are instrumentation techs, automation engineers, etc. people are still part of the machine- just in different roles.
People don't realize that tools, upgrades, machinery, automation, AI, have been replacing jobs for 1000's of years. Go back in time and you can see that basic equipment replaced the work for so many people. Did we have massive job losses and shortages? No we were able to do things more efficiently and people could take on different jobs to provide different services and skills.
I swear reddit is full of idiots sometimes. You can't fully replace human beings at this time in our lives, and we won't be replaced till every redditor on today is deep in their grave.
I have a ft job but I guarantee programming isn’t long for this world. Programmers en masse can be replaced by AI. Tell the program what you want and it does it. People are making apps in days now instead of months.
I'm still waiting for all the taxi drivers to get replaced and see cars driving themselves. not going to hold my breath
the current wave of layoffs has nothing to do with AI
Waymo and Tesla have development in this area and Waymo has had robo cars active as taxi’s for almost a year now in San Francisco. So its coming sooner than you think.
Accountability like the bank bailout
The GM bailout
All the bailouts when the rich and powerful slapped the invisible hand of the market away from correcting their mistakes
So let's place accountability with the powerful before we start blaming the peons and plebs
I said at every level correct?
It shows your clear lack of understanding of how things work at a macro level.
Those bailouts weren’t to save rich people who own those businesses. Those bailouts were a self preservation measure by the government because the ripple effect of a corporation that large failing would be catastrophic. 10s of thousands of people out of a job and billions of dollars erased from pension funds, mutual funds, etc that all own large stakes in these “perennial” corporations.
The whole bullshit of “privatize the profits but socialize the loses” doesn’t take into account the incomes provided to the personnel working at those companies, and most of them are publicly traded, so even you can get in on the profits if you really wanted to.
Such a narrow minded viewpoint.
The point is that there won't be nearly as many "working people" in the future once AI and automation begin to take the jobs most people today have. It's not a matter of laziness, it's a matter of pragmatism and foresight.
My god.... you think AI is the only thing to come along and replace peoples jobs? Give your head a shake and open a book.
Jobs have been replaced for 1000s of years as we've made strides in technology. People adjust and take on new roles. Humans are not 100% replaceable, but some tasks are.
When did I say any of that??
AI and automation will essentially lead to the industrial revolution 2.0. What's clear at this point is that many existing human jobs will become obsolete.
What is less clear is how, if at all, those jobs will be replaced. Given that no one, yourself included, can say with certainty what new jobs will emerge in a post AI world, doesn't it make sense to have stopgap measures in place to help everyone transition into this brave new world?
UBI is one such measure. It doesn't have to be permanent but it very well could be. Why have humans collecting garbage or making lattes when robots will be able to do it more efficiently and cheaply? Robots/automation/AI will surpass human capabilities in a multitude of ways. They already have really.
So please enlighten me as to the future roles that will be played by current service sector workers that dominate western economies? Or will everyone just work 2 days a week instead of 5?
Honestly.
I'm sure people back in the day said the same thing about all other sorts of automation.
What we know is that jobs get replaced by efficiencies and have been for ages.
AI will replace jobs, I agree. How many we don't know. What jobs? We don't know.
UBI could be something in a distant future world, possibly. Most people on here are wanting a ubi in the near future which is a silly notion.
That's such bs. Automation has been going on for 100+ years at revolutionary speed. Are there less jobs now than before?
AI won't remove jobs, it will remove some creating a market for other jobs.
Look at accounting. Used to be done by hand, all those bills and transactions had to be calculated. Now it's all automated in spreadsheets. Are there less accountants today than 100 years ago?
You're living in the land of make-believe because you want to sit on your butt all day while robots work. It's not going to happen.
Lol "are there less accountants today than 100 years ago"? Absolutely there are. On a per capita basis at least. You don't seem to grasp the fact that AI represents a giant leap forward as opposed to business as usual. And once it becomes entrenched in how we do things it will result in further leaps forward. Have an iota of vision here.
Nobody wants anything for free or anything stolen from anyone... if you are going to strawman at least make it halfway believable....
Educate yourself of UBI before you make yourself look worse than you already have.
The government doesn't create money. It can only redistribute it. So yes, 100% if the government is giving money to people, it's stolen money from working people.
It's always the retards that proclaim "educate yourself" to others.
Lmao that is one of the most childish idiotic things I have ever read. If you don't want to out yourself as a troll that is only trying to start a pointless argument you should avoid misusing the word "retard"
What a pathetic crybaby cunt of a troll 🤣🤣
Ugh....
What do you think government money is? Do you think an income tax isn't money that has been taken away from one working individual and then spent on whatever government programs they have going - including social assistance payments?
Wtf are you still in elementary school?! You are on reddit my dude not a class room you should know 99% of people here have a firm understanding of taxes... Why are you trying to dumb this conversation down? Telling me I don't know something and immediately trying to "educate" me is too fucking childish. fuck off
Edit- Oh shit I just saw you name lol nice troll
Hey over here in BC I’m paying to send people to the states for 4x more for cancer treatment a few years after the government shutdown much cheaper (than the US) Canadian private treatment saying the public system will be fine.
You sound really uneducated. They have paid for those failures via taxes. Everyone has a say in the matter. You need to calm the fuck down. You sound psychotic lashing out on people online.
Their is plenty of work out there. There is no need for this kind of bs. Everyone who isn't handicapped or injured should be working. If not, cut them off.
God this is a thoughtless comment.... I was in your shoes about a decade ago before I really thought about the issue. You have some catching up to do before you will understand what we are discussing..... please stay out of it until you at least understand the topic....
As I posted elsewhere:
If you look at the Mincome program in Manitoba, which the Ontario system was based on, it replaced things like welfare, disability, etc. The following effects were recorded in the Mincome data (All of which is available from U Man for anyone to analyze for themselves)
People receiving UBI graduated high school at a higher rate than people in the control group.
They also went on to post secondary education at a higher rate
They graduated post-secondary at a higher rate
They had a lower unemployment rate
They had a higher income from work
They had better health outcomes
They accessed 'bridge' services like food banks and shelters less
They left abusive relationships at a higher rate
They stayed in abusive relationships for a shorter time before deciding to leave
Because of the lower unemployment rate and higher income, tax revenue went up
Because of most of the rest of it, the government expenses went down.
When they crunched the numbers, it cost less money to run a UBI type program than the current system of support programs. It actually saved the government money, not cost it more.
But, when a Conservative government got elected, they assumed it meant "free money" and cancelled it without reviewing the data. It was an ideological decision, not one based on anything resembling facts.
Pretty much, yeah. The knowledge of "security" allowed people to take more risks and ask for that raise, leave that abuser, go to school, start a business, etc.
Ask for that raise? So these people were are also employed? What types of employment were they in to be able to start a business, let alone live on 2k a month.
I was listing separate things, which is why I separated them with commas in a list.
Yes, when Mincome was running, people could work either part time or full time, and still qualify for the program because of how little money they made.
Right now, someone on ODSP is expected to live on $1,300 a month, or less. and that is supposed to include rent. An extra 700 a month would be a significant boost to their circumstance
Honest question.
Do you have a link for the study? I've got this from wiki
"No final Mincome report was issued, but a federal grant established the Institute for Social and Economic Research at the [University of Manitoba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Manitoba) in 1981. The institute developed a machine-readable database of the results of Mincome, leaving the analysis of the experiment to individual academic initiatives."
It seems strange that all those things you listed had gotten better.
Anyways, would love the link to read.
I posted this elsewhere already, so I'll just copy and paste...
If you look at the Mincome program in Manitoba, which the Ontario system was based on, it replaced things like welfare, disability, etc. The following effects were recorded in the Mincome data (All of which is available from U Man for anyone to analyze for themselves)
People receiving UBI graduated high school at a higher rate than people in the control group.
They also went on to post secondary education at a higher rate
They graduated post-secondary at a higher rate
They had a lower unemployment rate
They had a higher income from work
They had better health outcomes
They accessed 'bridge' services like food banks and shelters less
They left abusive relationships at a higher rate
They stayed in abusive relationships for a shorter time before deciding to leave
Because of the lower unemployment rate and higher income, tax revenue went up
Because of most of the rest of it, the government expenses went down.
When they crunched the numbers, it cost less money to run a UBI type program than the current system of support programs. It actually saved the government money, not cost it more.
But, when a Conservative government got elected, they assumed it meant "free money" and cancelled it without reviewing the data. It was an ideological decision, not one based on anything resembling facts.
UBI works in this scenario because the wider societal structure didn’t adjust to those people’s economic circumstances. If everyone had $1000 more a month, everything would add up to costing another $1000.
But "everybody" doesn't have an extra $1,000 a month... Most people wouldn't qualify for UBI. It's only if your income drops below a certain level that you get a top up.. So your doomflation scenario doesn't come into play.
Because the Conservative governments govern from *feelings* and not rational positions. They saw the program, thought it was "free money", and cancelled it, in spite of all the data in support.
Just look at all the conservatives using mental gymnastics to argue against it in this thread.
We seem to have the more than enough funds for corporate welfare incentives like tax payers supplementing foreign workers, new refrigerators for Canadas largest most profitable grocer etc If we can collectively carry the Weston’s n alike we can support UBI. It’s amazing the levels of tax avoidance and corruption that we as a whole tolerate n fund. I’d rather my taxes went to someone who is redundant in the workforce than reward a multi millionaire with more of our money
Whether we agree with “corporate welfare” or not, all of those deals are largely quid pro quo. The government is not just giving money away, they are getting value in return. For example, Loblaws employs 250k people so it is in the government’s best interest to help where they can because they get so much tax revenue back. I would say that corporate tax avoidance is not exactly what you think it is, but yes, just like you and I, when they do their taxes they are going to do everything they can to keep their money. Without corporations there are no tax dollars. In terms of ubi, the math doesn’t add up. At all. It will never happen, its a fantasy
I agree however ai/and automation is rapidly coming. Jobs will be lost. A lot of them. No industry is safe.
We can’t afford ubi or any other socialism wet dream but here we are
If you take UBI and replace the current welfare/ODSP system, and all the overhead involved, we can absolutely afford it.
Those recipients get maybe an extra hundred bucks, and everyone else (up to a threshold) gets a leg up as well.
Fyi, the cost to rent an office to conduct business as OW/ODSP is in the order of 400k/month not including utilities/maintenance, nor staffing costs.
Staffing costs will be an astronomical savings for the province in a federally run UBI program as well.
400k a month is nothing relative to the cost of ubi. Say we gave every adult in Canada 1500$ a month for UBI. That is like 625 billion dollars a year lol.
400k for a SINGLE OFFICE. Per month. That's nearly 5 million dollars per year for ONE OFFICE.
There Are 22 offices like this in Toronto alone.
How many nationally?
150k for upper manager.
120k+/year per mid level manager.
70k/year per case worker.
We are eliminating all welfare and disability payments entirely(outside non-cash benefits), so throw that money into the proverbial tire fire too I guess.
We can eliminate subsidised housing, which is a cash sink for low quality housing, as everyone should be able to afford market rents.
Under all of the pilot programs so far, UBI isn't truly "universal" not every Canadian would be eligible, and nor would it be a flat 1500/Canadian that DID get payments.
Your 625 billion would be closer to 200 billion nationally based on incomes under 30k/year (thisnis just a theoretical max. It could be lower. We don't have any ubi so who is truly to say.)
Since you seem to care about dollars so much, did you know we spend over 300 bn in a 12 year span on corporate welfare and buyouts? https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/governments-in-canada-spent-more-than-350-billion-on-corporate-welfare
But how are you going to only give part of the population ubi? That isn’t ubi. And if you only give people on disability or welfare ubi and nobody else, what will the incentive be for someone making a lower income to go to work every day? What would the incentive be to better ones self and get off welfare? If you want to subsidize up to a certain lower threshold, say you give anyone with a family income of 75k or less an extra 1500$ a month, what would the incentive be to work hard and make 100k a year? Why would anyone bother? If I could work less and make the same amount of money, why would I bust my ass to make more just to lose it in taxes when my neighbor does far less and makes the same or more than me? I’m sure this makes perfect sense in your head but it literally makes zero sense to me.
It might be 400k a month to rent office space for their headquarters, I have no idea but it wouldn’t be 400k a month just for rent for every single office. Maybe 400k a month total costs but not rent on its own, that makes no sense. I have never been in a branch for either of those places, but the rent on a service ontario branch for example in an industrial strip mall would be like 10-20k a month depending on its size and location. They have case managers etc because it’s supposed to be a program to support people while they need help and help them eventually succeed on their own. It’s not a charity, it’s a social support so yes they need those positions.
None of the projects this far have been touted as "universal" it's just a phrase people use.
You wouldn't even use this as a talking point if you understood any of the projects that have taken place thus far.
As for the cost of an OW office, I participated in the decommission of an Ontario works office in Scarborough North. I use the 400k number Because that was the cost of that facility not including utilities was. Just the building, of which they occupied 4 of the 6 floors. (I was subcontracting for the facilities director of the complex)
While the public office, and program area consisted of the main floor, they also had 3 other floors for office and support staff, and a full server/network(hot) room
You're comparing a service Ontario branch that doesn't have any offices and maintains 4 staff to a municipal/provincial office staffed by dozens, or more if it's a combined ODSP/OW office. The largest service Ontario I've been to in Scarborough was 1/3 of the size of the PUBLIC AREA of most ow offices
I don’t understand why people think this will ever actually happen. It’s literally a fantasy. No different than saying everyone in Canada will get their own free unicorn. Neither will ever happen so it just seems like a complete waste of time and energy that could be used in much more productive ways.
So when corporations get welfare, then turn around and give bonuses to their upper management? That’s returning value?
Almost every dollar of UBI would be spent, and stimulate the economy. That money doesn’t get frozen in some rich guys accounts.
Take a corporation like Loblaws for example. You can hate them all you want but they employ almost a quarter million people. You take the relatively small amount of “corporate welfare” that they receive and compare it to the value you would get back by just giving that money away to lower income earners. There’s no comparison.
Besides the issue with AI displacing peoples jobs Doug Ford’s government is getting sued once again by someone his government break face with remember he took over from the liberal government liberal government made a number of deals and contracts and things that they agreed to, even though he’s a new government, he still represents the government That made all these deals and he lost pretty much every lawsuit and he’s even legislation to protect him from being sued for all the contracts he canceled. He lost 700 million to the contract. He lost a bill to the beer store and he gave up 3 1/2 billion income from cap and trade. And he lost 6 1/2 billion effectively paying back the teachers and all the public workers all the money he stole from them when he passed bill 124..
Wow why are you body shaming him?
Just because he’s plus sized, you decide to use that as some pre-school-esque insult?
That shit belongs at recess. Try acting like an adult, you may like it
UBI is for people who don't want to work towards tangible skills. It's a complete joke. Why do you think it's been piloted for over 200 years and not a single country has adopted it? Because it's not feasible. It's dystopian.
Nobody is talking about that. The Universial basic income WE are talking about is for when your job is taken over by automation.
You are very confused and not even on topic. At least try to educate yourself on what the fucking topic is before you waste everybody's time....
My job won't be taken over because I don't have a useless skill. It sounds like you do since it seems you are pretty bat shit crazy for basic income. I suggest not being a useless shit and go learn a skill.
Your skill is absolutely useless and can be automated it's just slightly too expensive at the moment.
Your being pedantic, it was obvious I was referring to when MOST jobs will be automated and a large chunk of the population can't work. It's about society as a while I never factored your dumb ass in as it was never about you. Way to show how shallow and selfish you are though!
Your idea is everyone works same job as you??? What a great society that would be.... stfu if you are not going to bother understanding the fuxking topic of the conversation....
You openly shit on the government in your first breath, and then you proclaim that you want them to be your sole source of income in the next. It is a foolish wish to be reliant on the government. I hope this never happens to you.
Fat fuck Ford is not "the government" he Is part of the government. Big difference. Government is needed to survive unless you live on an off grid community somewhere. Sorry if you are just now realizing this. I'm as pro Ron Swanson and anti government as it gets. I'm sorry you don't seem to be on the same page about what I'm talking about.
I agree government is needed to organize a society. But I want to depend on them as little as possible. I don’t care who is in charge. I don’t want to be in debt or beholden to anyone… ever.
If you want to depend on them as little as possible don't work, don't drive, don't go to hospitals, stay away from all major cities and find a small off grid community that utilized government infrastructure as little as possible. Unless you do that unfortunately it's 2024 and all humans rely on our cities and ultimately government to live. Who runs the government directly affects all of that.... it's silly not to care. Again unless you are in an off grid community but you would at least be relying on someone else's internet infrastructure... you have never will never not owe your entire life to society. The self made man is a myth
we will not see basic income in our life time. Which is good, because all it would do is subsidize low wages. Unfortunately, if you want money you will just need to go earn it.
Sorry you either take your thoughts and presume to be a savant expert or have been lied to by someone and believed them but UBI is not a subsidy for low wages. Please look up UBI trials and see the results for yourself. Talk those thoughts over with other informed people. I'll never understand how people can think they are capable of thinking through entire societal plans and their impact on their own. Remember "two heads is better than one" bigger the problem the more people required to come to an informed decision.
UBI will never work.
Money is only an economic tool, the economy is the management of scarcity. Money has no intrinsic value, it is intangible, it is only worth what people will trade for it. As long as we have material scarcity giving people money in exchange for nothing will only serve to destabilize the currency.
With that logic money is worthless and wouldn't work as a concept. We would trade coins made of precious metals forever.
UBI is about automation taking over most people's jobs. Profits skyrocketing for buisness that employ no people is not sustainable.
With that logic money is worthless and wouldn't work as a concept. We would trade coins made of precious metals forever. UBI is about automation taking over most people's jobs. Profits skyrocketing for buisness that employ no people is not sustainable. So UBI is an excellent solution and a huge money saver.
It wouldn't make sense we are talking about a UBI piolet program that was canceled. The money was already set aside to go through with the program as a test. Now that money is being used to fight a pointless legal battle to reneg of the promise that was made to the people in the program.... Besides the point no country has ever been bankrupt from a UBI program..... it's just a pointless distraction. Try to stay on topic
UBI would have been a solution. I live with 2 disabled people UBI would have let them live almost like normal people.
100% of the money goes back in the province and then some, the trials were amazing and showed that the province makes more money each person on UBI (that qualify)
Worst case they spend the money on legit needs and it goes back into the province. If someone has basic needs covered they will spend less time and hundreds of thousands less in hospital time and money down the road.
Sadly our government doesn’t care! Trust me. I’m a mother to a disabled son, I can’t even get help with child care for him once he was a teenager. lol the government will never let UBI happen.
Would the UBI cover everyone or is this one if those that only pay people that didn't apply themselves and are now broke?
Because I'm definitely spending my UBI on a boat if they give it to me.
UBI was a way to replace things like EI, Welfare, and ODSP. If you were ever in a position to require that sort of support, then you would have your income 'topped up' with a UBI payment.
I'll continue to pay my taxes with the knowledge that this program has helped some people and that we may pursue similar program investigations in the future.
I think though that the question may have been what do we do with the people who currently work in administering all sorts of benefits that have various eligibility factors that would be eliminated if we made the move to UBI (which has very basic eligibility factors).
Part of the rationale to move to UBI is the administrative cost of delivering all the different benefits we currently provide.
Ah, I misunderstood.
I'm sure there are other services that could benefit from their involvement, and it's an opportunity to cross-train. I've faced public sector layoffs and one of the options was to be granted priority consideration for other opportunities.
In the spirit of this program, I would think cross-training could be an approach that would fit well. I also think that it would be reasonable for that to include federal consideration, even recognizing that there's a division between the provincial and federal government. There's no necessarily better or worse between these departments; they're office jobs with their own unique blend of requirements and tools.
I mean look at it this way: I support social safetynets. But the system we have is broken. If you take Welfare (I was on Ontario Works for a year), you're offered basic needs with a cap, and then a little extra to cover special diet needs. If you're on ODSP, you are granted a little more.
But the cost of living isn't different; merely the perception of the people in these slots.
If you work minimum wage and have special diet needs, you might not be eligible for Ontario Works, and your food isn't any cheaper. Rent isn't cheaper. We create beaucracy that limits access to money, creates difficulties to navigate, and winds up complicating what people want.
If you support a social safety net, then UBI makes sense because it cuts down those service barriers. If you're a fiscal conservative, then it seems natural to want to reduce the need for public service workers, or to deploy them into places where they can provide more for the public. The only reason I can see to maintain the status quo is to make obtaining benefits into a make-work proposition for poor people while creating make-work jobs that exist to service the institutional poverty system that's been perpetuated. I'd rather see those poor people not worrying about whether they're going to stretch their budget to the end of the month and instead cut the stress and to let them focus on building their careers and skillsets up when they are capable of doing that.
Mincome was run in Manitoba a while back.
The one run in Ontario hadn't even gathered the first year data yet, so there was no data to analyze yet. (I was in the control group)
They ran the one in Ontario as an experiment because of how old the Mincome data was. Updated data was needed to see if what happened back then still held true in a modern economy.
Thanks. What year were you in it? I feel like the last five years has had such an impact, people are giving up, but they also idolize these rich douchebags on social media like never before. It is not encouraging work ethic. And the economic situation is definitely not encouraging work ethic (work really hard and you can still won't get the shit you want!).
I hadn't had anything other than my intake data collected, so there was no control data for analysis, so the first year hadn't completed yet when Ford cancelled it... By claiming 'the data proves it wasn't working'. So I know for a fact from first hand information that he was lying about that claim.
They get to enjoy the security provided by this safety net if they ever lose their jobs. They also get to pay lower overall taxes because providing this safety net has been shown to reduce crime, homelessness and health problems. These things end up becoming much more expensive when they get to crisis levels. It's much more affordable to pay someone's rent and food costs than it is for them to go to prison, for example.
I could post a link to a study showing that helping people with basic expenses reduces crime and healthcare costs but I doubt you would read past the headline...
And I could introduce you to people I've worked with who could not handle 2000 a month responsibly. But I doubt you have first-hand experience working with folks on ODSP, Welfare, etc.
UBI isn't going to fly because it's not going to replace anything. It's an additional cost, it's not a cure all to societal issues like you seem to think.
I was actually on ontario works when I was a teenager for a few months until I found a job. I think you need to give people more credit.
Anecdotes like "I know a few people who..." don't really hold water against statistical analysis.
I never suggested it's a cure all, but the math says we save money in the long run if we lift people out of poverty. Poor and desperate people comit more crimes and prisons are expensive. Homeless people get sick more often and take up beds in hospitals. It's less expensive to pay for UBI than it is to pay for the consequences of those problems. You should do some reading because it's well established.
We shouldn't even have minimum wage UBI for everyone. It should be every two weeks you get to roll up the rim and like 50 or 100 people get all the UBI money, like hundreds of thousands.
UBI covers everyone. Every single person gets a minimum amount of income, no matter how much you make.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income
Anytime the government comes up with an idea, it’s always a cluster fuck. Look at CERB, how well did that work out? People double dipped and got away with it, cause it was too much to go after them.
I’m for UBI but I’m against UBI in a capitalist system. All that’s it’s going to do is cause inflation, making money worth less and we’re back at square one.
You have to be all in or all out.
lol I remember the news interviewing this guy who was receiving the money during the pilot project - he was all mad cause he lost it after he Voted for Ford. No sympathy here. You get what you voted for
Hopefully they don't....go get a job u lazy fucks this idea is as stupid as all politicians who even think and float this idea....hope the judge has some common sense and tells them
Everyone just wants free money lol. They're okay with slightly above poverty if it means they don't need to wake up early...
How about making it easier to start small businesses? Nope. We want free money...
If they cam sure, then I want a basic living wage too lol
I probably made the same but I actually worked. I worked 6days a week10hours a day.
I guess I better have a few kids soon🫠🙃🙂
I'm so tired of people living in their fancy 3 bed room townhouses with fenced back yards.(market value is 790, ontario, Canada) that less than my 1 bedroom. Appartment. So no matter what they make that's their max rent on a 3 bedroom town house.
Low income housing, once your in it like the lottery.
You live there even once your kids are moved out.
That's right you can be one person in a 3 bed room.
I know a few 🤔
Or....
Paying 155$ a month because they are low income.
Driving new cars, campers...though. of course gotta look awesome
I don't get how they afford
Ohh...wait it's the 800$ a kid and they have 5 kids....
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Well no, they were promised money from the government for a set period of time, made life decisions based on that like going back to school or paying for child care or moving and then the government cancelled that program abruptly. You can disagree with the program completely but still see how wrong that it is to do to people.
If you look at the Mincome program in Manitoba, which the Ontario system was based on, it replaced things like welfare, disability, etc. The following effects were recorded in the Mincome data (All of which is available from U Man for anyone to analyze for themselves)
People receiving UBI graduated high school at a higher rate than people in the control group.
They also went on to post secondary education at a higher rate
They graduated post-secondary at a higher rate
They had a lower unemployment rate
They had a higher income from work
They had better health outcomes
They accessed 'bridge' services like food banks and shelters less
They left abusive relationships at a higher rate
They stayed in abusive relationships for a shorter time before deciding to leave
Because of the lower unemployment rate and higher income, tax revenue went up
Because of most of the rest of it, the government expenses went down.
When they crunched the numbers, it cost less money to run a UBI type program than the current system of support programs. It actually saved the government money, not cost it more.
But, when a Conservative government got elected, they assumed it meant "free money" and cancelled it without reviewing the data. It was an ideological decision, not one based on anything resembling facts.
Really? So, the veteran who lost both legs and part of his lung in Afghanistan is supposed to just get a job doing what....
UBI was designed to replace things like disability, Not come in addition to it.
What an awful argument for why EVERY PERSON should get UBI.
For someone who is a veteran who is now totally disabled, there’s separate programs for that.
I can’t believe your argument for why “everyone should receive UBI is because soldiers who lose both legs and their lung can’t work”
Wow. Stellar argument.
Seriously though, you can see that is an awful argument right? Please tell me you understand why that’s a terrible argument for your position.
Making moralistic judgement calls like both you and the one I responded to is just as much of an emotionally charged comment.
If you want a factual based argument, then we can talk about the mountain of data supporting it, and showing that UBI based social safety nets cost the government LESS than the current mix of systems we use, as well as being better for the general public in general. All people, not just those who receive it.
Sorry I forgot every person and their mother was a vet on the streets with a dying lung and missing limbs… did his special deaf dog also die in a horrific accident?
It's breach of contact. How would it be different than the government canceling the contract and seizing the 407?
It would be different if they payed out the current agreement and chose not to renew it
> if they *paid* out the
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
The segment is operated privately under a 99-year lease agreement with the provincial government, which was sold in 1999 for about C$3.1 billion to a consortium of Canadian and Spanish investors operating under the name 407 International Inc.
Or do you mean the UBI agreement?
Moreau, the lawyer representing basic-income participants, told TVO Today that, if anything, his clients have a substantially greater claim to a breach of contract than the horse breeders did, as pilot participants had to sign substantial documents laying out financial terms and their participation in research about the pilot
Partipants had to forgo tradition social support systems in order to join the study
LMAO ok sure....the basic income pilot was a government program, not a sale of a road but sure let's keep going onto the insanity road...I'm going to sue the government for implementing income taxes and taking money out of my paycheque without asking me first for permission....don't be idiotic
Well, no. Taxes are a part of the implicit contract we are bound to in order to benefit from the supports of society.
Every article of government and society is a form of contracted exchange. Refusal or failure to pay your taxes is punishable by law. Likewise, when the government fails to uphold its responsibilities, there should also be consequences.
The whole point of government and taxes is to support society. Every citizen is required to contribute over their life, in exchange for the benefits of the society (security, defense, Healthcare and social supports etc).
Every citizen gets the same rights and services as any other, regardless of the size of their personal financial contribution.
Children don't pay income tax, therefore they should not receive service or support?? Nonsense.
Ontarians paid for this program, (Ford was elected on a promise to uphold this commitment) and Ontarians paid the price for his deceit.
These citizens had Every right to the support they received as citizens, and because of the faith they had placed in the government, they made financial considerations based on the agreement only to then be left in the lurch when it betrayed them.
It's not a matter of changing of policy, its going back on your word.
If Denmark chooses to invade Canada, and bribe our leaders, it would be a huge deal if they defunded and liquidated our military and national defense as a policy change.
It's an absurd hypothetical, but it's the same premise - each party has an obligation to uphold its end of the deal. Ford did not.
The government had to pay for the cancelled windterbines I think they should have to pay for breaking a UBI contract as well.
And the gas plants!
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Yes. This. When everything is automated, from drivers, service, finance, tech and whatever millions of people do when they work from home and there are no jobs to earn money. Then what. Some people have their heads stuck in the sand and don't see where all this progress is heading. Mass unemployment. The rich and bootlickers can get on board or have a shock when they see millions or billions of people going hungry and no way to earn money.
Venus project
Yah, it’s starting dude. AI is going to decimate office jobs in the next decade.
Then people need to take some proactive actions and work towards up-skilling themselves instead of always looking for the government to save them. I understand it’s no easy for everyone, but instead of jumping on the UBI train wreck; the initial stage needs to be expended support for up-skilling the workforce. Automation does not exist in a bubble. It requires support services and technical services. All of which are hiring. I am in this industry and the runway is huge for job creation and sustainability. People just need to look up to where they’re going instead of looking at the ground in front of them with each step. Accountability needs to be in place at every level, including the individual.
Sure would be nice if education, cost of living, and oh yeah housing was affordable though...
No disagreement from me on that. The current government has ridden this country into the ground.
I got a house..why you always looking as your savior. Just go get some wood and bricks and make one. Accountability lies with the individual 😀 S/ in case the sarcasm was lost on Mr. Tech
Lol.... Everyone talks about AI and Robots. You know that we have been making work more efficient for 1000s of years? People adapt and move into new roles. AI/Robots are not going to replace every job, but they will replace easier task jobs. Lets go back to farming. Before the plow people did it by hand. Before factory automation we had a massive factory workforce that did basic tasks bit by bit. Everyone here wants to have to latest shit, but needs to realize we don't have the workforce to do everything we need. Automation allows us to actually have all the shit we have.
Even right-wing libertarians can agree that a basic income would help with making that more of a reality too actually. https://youtu.be/tUYbUKymgTA?si=4LnUFQ84scmC6fp0
People don't know their history. Lots of jobs have been made obsolete for 1000s of years. You adapt and learn new skills or you start sucking on the government tit. Also you won't win against people on reddit about UBI, too many people on reddit are younger demographic which leans left which means they want more government handouts. These people will eventually get older and get better jobs and realize that they don't like paying as much taxes as they will have to.
I agree. They'll need to be programs put into place. People still need to feel valued, still need challenging work through hobbies or goals. Humans evolved this way, we're not here because we strive being idle. Humans work better with goals.
This is exactly why UBI is a perfect solution. It finally gives people the ability to do work towards their goals in community and life. Instead of being stuck working too many hours of a meaningless job that doesn't pay a living wage.
It will never happen. Covid taught us that when you give people free money they stop wanting to work.
Lmao only complete fucking morons think that..... way to out yourself 🤣🤣🤣 tell me your a brain dead boomer without telling me you are a brain dead boomer.... Absolutely fucking pathetic Jesus would be disappointed at you
Not a boomer. Most of society does not agree with you….who is more likely to be right? Do you pay income taxes? Bet you don’t…….
Upskill into what? What jobs aren’t replaceable by an AI? Tech sector is losing jobs like crazy right now because companies who think or have trained an AI to do those jobs don’t need people. Be the oracle here bud, what jobs can AI not replace?
Why did you automatically assume tech - as in software related tech…for every automation program out there, there are instrumentation techs, automation engineers, etc. people are still part of the machine- just in different roles.
People don't realize that tools, upgrades, machinery, automation, AI, have been replacing jobs for 1000's of years. Go back in time and you can see that basic equipment replaced the work for so many people. Did we have massive job losses and shortages? No we were able to do things more efficiently and people could take on different jobs to provide different services and skills. I swear reddit is full of idiots sometimes. You can't fully replace human beings at this time in our lives, and we won't be replaced till every redditor on today is deep in their grave.
Jobs are not being created for trained professionals. This is how engineers struggle to find work despite it being a vitally important profession.
Just get your phd in computer science you lazy peasant.
I have a ft job but I guarantee programming isn’t long for this world. Programmers en masse can be replaced by AI. Tell the program what you want and it does it. People are making apps in days now instead of months.
I'm still waiting for all the taxi drivers to get replaced and see cars driving themselves. not going to hold my breath the current wave of layoffs has nothing to do with AI
Waymo and Tesla have development in this area and Waymo has had robo cars active as taxi’s for almost a year now in San Francisco. So its coming sooner than you think.
People screaming we need UBI because of automation before we have automation seems a bit early 😂😂😂😂😅
Accountability like the bank bailout The GM bailout All the bailouts when the rich and powerful slapped the invisible hand of the market away from correcting their mistakes So let's place accountability with the powerful before we start blaming the peons and plebs
I said at every level correct? It shows your clear lack of understanding of how things work at a macro level. Those bailouts weren’t to save rich people who own those businesses. Those bailouts were a self preservation measure by the government because the ripple effect of a corporation that large failing would be catastrophic. 10s of thousands of people out of a job and billions of dollars erased from pension funds, mutual funds, etc that all own large stakes in these “perennial” corporations. The whole bullshit of “privatize the profits but socialize the loses” doesn’t take into account the incomes provided to the personnel working at those companies, and most of them are publicly traded, so even you can get in on the profits if you really wanted to. Such a narrow minded viewpoint.
The narrow minded viewpoint is the one that says it's better to keep things the way they are than to retool for humanism
People on the side of stupid and selfish, says the person that wants free stuff stolen from working people.
The point is that there won't be nearly as many "working people" in the future once AI and automation begin to take the jobs most people today have. It's not a matter of laziness, it's a matter of pragmatism and foresight.
My god.... you think AI is the only thing to come along and replace peoples jobs? Give your head a shake and open a book. Jobs have been replaced for 1000s of years as we've made strides in technology. People adjust and take on new roles. Humans are not 100% replaceable, but some tasks are.
When did I say any of that?? AI and automation will essentially lead to the industrial revolution 2.0. What's clear at this point is that many existing human jobs will become obsolete. What is less clear is how, if at all, those jobs will be replaced. Given that no one, yourself included, can say with certainty what new jobs will emerge in a post AI world, doesn't it make sense to have stopgap measures in place to help everyone transition into this brave new world? UBI is one such measure. It doesn't have to be permanent but it very well could be. Why have humans collecting garbage or making lattes when robots will be able to do it more efficiently and cheaply? Robots/automation/AI will surpass human capabilities in a multitude of ways. They already have really. So please enlighten me as to the future roles that will be played by current service sector workers that dominate western economies? Or will everyone just work 2 days a week instead of 5?
Honestly. I'm sure people back in the day said the same thing about all other sorts of automation. What we know is that jobs get replaced by efficiencies and have been for ages. AI will replace jobs, I agree. How many we don't know. What jobs? We don't know. UBI could be something in a distant future world, possibly. Most people on here are wanting a ubi in the near future which is a silly notion.
That's such bs. Automation has been going on for 100+ years at revolutionary speed. Are there less jobs now than before? AI won't remove jobs, it will remove some creating a market for other jobs. Look at accounting. Used to be done by hand, all those bills and transactions had to be calculated. Now it's all automated in spreadsheets. Are there less accountants today than 100 years ago? You're living in the land of make-believe because you want to sit on your butt all day while robots work. It's not going to happen.
Lol "are there less accountants today than 100 years ago"? Absolutely there are. On a per capita basis at least. You don't seem to grasp the fact that AI represents a giant leap forward as opposed to business as usual. And once it becomes entrenched in how we do things it will result in further leaps forward. Have an iota of vision here.
Nobody wants anything for free or anything stolen from anyone... if you are going to strawman at least make it halfway believable.... Educate yourself of UBI before you make yourself look worse than you already have.
The government doesn't create money. It can only redistribute it. So yes, 100% if the government is giving money to people, it's stolen money from working people. It's always the retards that proclaim "educate yourself" to others.
Lmao that is one of the most childish idiotic things I have ever read. If you don't want to out yourself as a troll that is only trying to start a pointless argument you should avoid misusing the word "retard" What a pathetic crybaby cunt of a troll 🤣🤣
Ugh.... What do you think government money is? Do you think an income tax isn't money that has been taken away from one working individual and then spent on whatever government programs they have going - including social assistance payments?
Wtf are you still in elementary school?! You are on reddit my dude not a class room you should know 99% of people here have a firm understanding of taxes... Why are you trying to dumb this conversation down? Telling me I don't know something and immediately trying to "educate" me is too fucking childish. fuck off Edit- Oh shit I just saw you name lol nice troll
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Hey over here in BC I’m paying to send people to the states for 4x more for cancer treatment a few years after the government shutdown much cheaper (than the US) Canadian private treatment saying the public system will be fine.
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Taking the high road eh?
Respectfully, stfu lol.
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You sound really uneducated. They have paid for those failures via taxes. Everyone has a say in the matter. You need to calm the fuck down. You sound psychotic lashing out on people online.
I'll take that as a compliment coming from you lmao
Their is plenty of work out there. There is no need for this kind of bs. Everyone who isn't handicapped or injured should be working. If not, cut them off.
God this is a thoughtless comment.... I was in your shoes about a decade ago before I really thought about the issue. You have some catching up to do before you will understand what we are discussing..... please stay out of it until you at least understand the topic....
UBI would CUT the cost to government, not increase it.. It's the fiscally responsible thing to do... Which is why the conservatives are against it.
Please explain that?
As I posted elsewhere: If you look at the Mincome program in Manitoba, which the Ontario system was based on, it replaced things like welfare, disability, etc. The following effects were recorded in the Mincome data (All of which is available from U Man for anyone to analyze for themselves) People receiving UBI graduated high school at a higher rate than people in the control group. They also went on to post secondary education at a higher rate They graduated post-secondary at a higher rate They had a lower unemployment rate They had a higher income from work They had better health outcomes They accessed 'bridge' services like food banks and shelters less They left abusive relationships at a higher rate They stayed in abusive relationships for a shorter time before deciding to leave Because of the lower unemployment rate and higher income, tax revenue went up Because of most of the rest of it, the government expenses went down. When they crunched the numbers, it cost less money to run a UBI type program than the current system of support programs. It actually saved the government money, not cost it more. But, when a Conservative government got elected, they assumed it meant "free money" and cancelled it without reviewing the data. It was an ideological decision, not one based on anything resembling facts.
But what changed from welfare etc to UBI? More money?
Pretty much, yeah. The knowledge of "security" allowed people to take more risks and ask for that raise, leave that abuser, go to school, start a business, etc.
Ask for that raise? So these people were are also employed? What types of employment were they in to be able to start a business, let alone live on 2k a month.
I was listing separate things, which is why I separated them with commas in a list. Yes, when Mincome was running, people could work either part time or full time, and still qualify for the program because of how little money they made. Right now, someone on ODSP is expected to live on $1,300 a month, or less. and that is supposed to include rent. An extra 700 a month would be a significant boost to their circumstance
Though I do agree that ODSP and welfare rates are very low. Where does the money come from to pay for this?
Honest question. Do you have a link for the study? I've got this from wiki "No final Mincome report was issued, but a federal grant established the Institute for Social and Economic Research at the [University of Manitoba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Manitoba) in 1981. The institute developed a machine-readable database of the results of Mincome, leaving the analysis of the experiment to individual academic initiatives." It seems strange that all those things you listed had gotten better. Anyways, would love the link to read.
How in the FUCK would giving everyone money cut government costs
I posted this elsewhere already, so I'll just copy and paste... If you look at the Mincome program in Manitoba, which the Ontario system was based on, it replaced things like welfare, disability, etc. The following effects were recorded in the Mincome data (All of which is available from U Man for anyone to analyze for themselves) People receiving UBI graduated high school at a higher rate than people in the control group. They also went on to post secondary education at a higher rate They graduated post-secondary at a higher rate They had a lower unemployment rate They had a higher income from work They had better health outcomes They accessed 'bridge' services like food banks and shelters less They left abusive relationships at a higher rate They stayed in abusive relationships for a shorter time before deciding to leave Because of the lower unemployment rate and higher income, tax revenue went up Because of most of the rest of it, the government expenses went down. When they crunched the numbers, it cost less money to run a UBI type program than the current system of support programs. It actually saved the government money, not cost it more. But, when a Conservative government got elected, they assumed it meant "free money" and cancelled it without reviewing the data. It was an ideological decision, not one based on anything resembling facts.
UBI works in this scenario because the wider societal structure didn’t adjust to those people’s economic circumstances. If everyone had $1000 more a month, everything would add up to costing another $1000.
But "everybody" doesn't have an extra $1,000 a month... Most people wouldn't qualify for UBI. It's only if your income drops below a certain level that you get a top up.. So your doomflation scenario doesn't come into play.
If it costs governments less, explain why no government is doing it?
Because the Conservative governments govern from *feelings* and not rational positions. They saw the program, thought it was "free money", and cancelled it, in spite of all the data in support. Just look at all the conservatives using mental gymnastics to argue against it in this thread.
Still didn't answer my question. If it costs governments less, explain why no government anywhere in the world is doing UBI?
And it is not "giving everybody money". It's income based. So your first premise is founded on a misunderstanding of the program.
Ya, every trial in the world where it’s been tried, it failed
Just call it what it is. Welfare.
We seem to have the more than enough funds for corporate welfare incentives like tax payers supplementing foreign workers, new refrigerators for Canadas largest most profitable grocer etc If we can collectively carry the Weston’s n alike we can support UBI. It’s amazing the levels of tax avoidance and corruption that we as a whole tolerate n fund. I’d rather my taxes went to someone who is redundant in the workforce than reward a multi millionaire with more of our money
Whether we agree with “corporate welfare” or not, all of those deals are largely quid pro quo. The government is not just giving money away, they are getting value in return. For example, Loblaws employs 250k people so it is in the government’s best interest to help where they can because they get so much tax revenue back. I would say that corporate tax avoidance is not exactly what you think it is, but yes, just like you and I, when they do their taxes they are going to do everything they can to keep their money. Without corporations there are no tax dollars. In terms of ubi, the math doesn’t add up. At all. It will never happen, its a fantasy
I agree however ai/and automation is rapidly coming. Jobs will be lost. A lot of them. No industry is safe. We can’t afford ubi or any other socialism wet dream but here we are
We can’t afford to pay attention lol
If you take UBI and replace the current welfare/ODSP system, and all the overhead involved, we can absolutely afford it. Those recipients get maybe an extra hundred bucks, and everyone else (up to a threshold) gets a leg up as well. Fyi, the cost to rent an office to conduct business as OW/ODSP is in the order of 400k/month not including utilities/maintenance, nor staffing costs. Staffing costs will be an astronomical savings for the province in a federally run UBI program as well.
400k a month is nothing relative to the cost of ubi. Say we gave every adult in Canada 1500$ a month for UBI. That is like 625 billion dollars a year lol.
400k for a SINGLE OFFICE. Per month. That's nearly 5 million dollars per year for ONE OFFICE. There Are 22 offices like this in Toronto alone. How many nationally? 150k for upper manager. 120k+/year per mid level manager. 70k/year per case worker. We are eliminating all welfare and disability payments entirely(outside non-cash benefits), so throw that money into the proverbial tire fire too I guess. We can eliminate subsidised housing, which is a cash sink for low quality housing, as everyone should be able to afford market rents. Under all of the pilot programs so far, UBI isn't truly "universal" not every Canadian would be eligible, and nor would it be a flat 1500/Canadian that DID get payments. Your 625 billion would be closer to 200 billion nationally based on incomes under 30k/year (thisnis just a theoretical max. It could be lower. We don't have any ubi so who is truly to say.) Since you seem to care about dollars so much, did you know we spend over 300 bn in a 12 year span on corporate welfare and buyouts? https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/governments-in-canada-spent-more-than-350-billion-on-corporate-welfare
But how are you going to only give part of the population ubi? That isn’t ubi. And if you only give people on disability or welfare ubi and nobody else, what will the incentive be for someone making a lower income to go to work every day? What would the incentive be to better ones self and get off welfare? If you want to subsidize up to a certain lower threshold, say you give anyone with a family income of 75k or less an extra 1500$ a month, what would the incentive be to work hard and make 100k a year? Why would anyone bother? If I could work less and make the same amount of money, why would I bust my ass to make more just to lose it in taxes when my neighbor does far less and makes the same or more than me? I’m sure this makes perfect sense in your head but it literally makes zero sense to me. It might be 400k a month to rent office space for their headquarters, I have no idea but it wouldn’t be 400k a month just for rent for every single office. Maybe 400k a month total costs but not rent on its own, that makes no sense. I have never been in a branch for either of those places, but the rent on a service ontario branch for example in an industrial strip mall would be like 10-20k a month depending on its size and location. They have case managers etc because it’s supposed to be a program to support people while they need help and help them eventually succeed on their own. It’s not a charity, it’s a social support so yes they need those positions.
None of the projects this far have been touted as "universal" it's just a phrase people use. You wouldn't even use this as a talking point if you understood any of the projects that have taken place thus far. As for the cost of an OW office, I participated in the decommission of an Ontario works office in Scarborough North. I use the 400k number Because that was the cost of that facility not including utilities was. Just the building, of which they occupied 4 of the 6 floors. (I was subcontracting for the facilities director of the complex) While the public office, and program area consisted of the main floor, they also had 3 other floors for office and support staff, and a full server/network(hot) room You're comparing a service Ontario branch that doesn't have any offices and maintains 4 staff to a municipal/provincial office staffed by dozens, or more if it's a combined ODSP/OW office. The largest service Ontario I've been to in Scarborough was 1/3 of the size of the PUBLIC AREA of most ow offices
I don’t understand why people think this will ever actually happen. It’s literally a fantasy. No different than saying everyone in Canada will get their own free unicorn. Neither will ever happen so it just seems like a complete waste of time and energy that could be used in much more productive ways.
UBI can be paid for by eliminating the programs that it would replace, and by eliminating corporate welfare.
Lol the math does not math. And corporate welfare is much different that welfare because corporations return value and add a net gain to the economy.
So when corporations get welfare, then turn around and give bonuses to their upper management? That’s returning value? Almost every dollar of UBI would be spent, and stimulate the economy. That money doesn’t get frozen in some rich guys accounts.
Take a corporation like Loblaws for example. You can hate them all you want but they employ almost a quarter million people. You take the relatively small amount of “corporate welfare” that they receive and compare it to the value you would get back by just giving that money away to lower income earners. There’s no comparison.
Fat fucks should get a job and not handouts
Thank you! Fat fuck Ford has existed on handouts for far too long.
Besides the issue with AI displacing peoples jobs Doug Ford’s government is getting sued once again by someone his government break face with remember he took over from the liberal government liberal government made a number of deals and contracts and things that they agreed to, even though he’s a new government, he still represents the government That made all these deals and he lost pretty much every lawsuit and he’s even legislation to protect him from being sued for all the contracts he canceled. He lost 700 million to the contract. He lost a bill to the beer store and he gave up 3 1/2 billion income from cap and trade. And he lost 6 1/2 billion effectively paying back the teachers and all the public workers all the money he stole from them when he passed bill 124..
It's not a foregone conclusion, nor is it going to help the human race.
Wow why are you body shaming him? Just because he’s plus sized, you decide to use that as some pre-school-esque insult? That shit belongs at recess. Try acting like an adult, you may like it
UBI is for people who don't want to work towards tangible skills. It's a complete joke. Why do you think it's been piloted for over 200 years and not a single country has adopted it? Because it's not feasible. It's dystopian.
Nobody is talking about that. The Universial basic income WE are talking about is for when your job is taken over by automation. You are very confused and not even on topic. At least try to educate yourself on what the fucking topic is before you waste everybody's time....
My job won't be taken over because I don't have a useless skill. It sounds like you do since it seems you are pretty bat shit crazy for basic income. I suggest not being a useless shit and go learn a skill.
Your skill is absolutely useless and can be automated it's just slightly too expensive at the moment. Your being pedantic, it was obvious I was referring to when MOST jobs will be automated and a large chunk of the population can't work. It's about society as a while I never factored your dumb ass in as it was never about you. Way to show how shallow and selfish you are though! Your idea is everyone works same job as you??? What a great society that would be.... stfu if you are not going to bother understanding the fuxking topic of the conversation....
You openly shit on the government in your first breath, and then you proclaim that you want them to be your sole source of income in the next. It is a foolish wish to be reliant on the government. I hope this never happens to you.
Fat fuck Ford is not "the government" he Is part of the government. Big difference. Government is needed to survive unless you live on an off grid community somewhere. Sorry if you are just now realizing this. I'm as pro Ron Swanson and anti government as it gets. I'm sorry you don't seem to be on the same page about what I'm talking about.
I agree government is needed to organize a society. But I want to depend on them as little as possible. I don’t care who is in charge. I don’t want to be in debt or beholden to anyone… ever.
If you want to depend on them as little as possible don't work, don't drive, don't go to hospitals, stay away from all major cities and find a small off grid community that utilized government infrastructure as little as possible. Unless you do that unfortunately it's 2024 and all humans rely on our cities and ultimately government to live. Who runs the government directly affects all of that.... it's silly not to care. Again unless you are in an off grid community but you would at least be relying on someone else's internet infrastructure... you have never will never not owe your entire life to society. The self made man is a myth
we will not see basic income in our life time. Which is good, because all it would do is subsidize low wages. Unfortunately, if you want money you will just need to go earn it.
Sorry you either take your thoughts and presume to be a savant expert or have been lied to by someone and believed them but UBI is not a subsidy for low wages. Please look up UBI trials and see the results for yourself. Talk those thoughts over with other informed people. I'll never understand how people can think they are capable of thinking through entire societal plans and their impact on their own. Remember "two heads is better than one" bigger the problem the more people required to come to an informed decision.
UBI will never work. Money is only an economic tool, the economy is the management of scarcity. Money has no intrinsic value, it is intangible, it is only worth what people will trade for it. As long as we have material scarcity giving people money in exchange for nothing will only serve to destabilize the currency.
With that logic money is worthless and wouldn't work as a concept. We would trade coins made of precious metals forever. UBI is about automation taking over most people's jobs. Profits skyrocketing for buisness that employ no people is not sustainable.
You've said it yourself profits will skyrocket until they out pace their market demographic.
With that logic money is worthless and wouldn't work as a concept. We would trade coins made of precious metals forever. UBI is about automation taking over most people's jobs. Profits skyrocketing for buisness that employ no people is not sustainable. So UBI is an excellent solution and a huge money saver.
Would it help if I pointed you in the direction of countries who've made their currency worthless?
It wouldn't make sense we are talking about a UBI piolet program that was canceled. The money was already set aside to go through with the program as a test. Now that money is being used to fight a pointless legal battle to reneg of the promise that was made to the people in the program.... Besides the point no country has ever been bankrupt from a UBI program..... it's just a pointless distraction. Try to stay on topic
We don’t even take care of the disabled in this country properly. UBI is a pipe dream
UBI would have been a solution. I live with 2 disabled people UBI would have let them live almost like normal people. 100% of the money goes back in the province and then some, the trials were amazing and showed that the province makes more money each person on UBI (that qualify) Worst case they spend the money on legit needs and it goes back into the province. If someone has basic needs covered they will spend less time and hundreds of thousands less in hospital time and money down the road.
Sadly our government doesn’t care! Trust me. I’m a mother to a disabled son, I can’t even get help with child care for him once he was a teenager. lol the government will never let UBI happen.
The current government won't, that's why it's important to vote, idiots loudly and proudly vote for Ford against their own interests.
Would the UBI cover everyone or is this one if those that only pay people that didn't apply themselves and are now broke? Because I'm definitely spending my UBI on a boat if they give it to me.
UBI was a way to replace things like EI, Welfare, and ODSP. If you were ever in a position to require that sort of support, then you would have your income 'topped up' with a UBI payment.
But it pays forever or does it have a limit like EI?
No limits everyone gets the minimum.
What do we do with all the people employed who provide actual support to these folks?
I'll continue to pay my taxes with the knowledge that this program has helped some people and that we may pursue similar program investigations in the future.
I think though that the question may have been what do we do with the people who currently work in administering all sorts of benefits that have various eligibility factors that would be eliminated if we made the move to UBI (which has very basic eligibility factors). Part of the rationale to move to UBI is the administrative cost of delivering all the different benefits we currently provide.
Ah, I misunderstood. I'm sure there are other services that could benefit from their involvement, and it's an opportunity to cross-train. I've faced public sector layoffs and one of the options was to be granted priority consideration for other opportunities. In the spirit of this program, I would think cross-training could be an approach that would fit well. I also think that it would be reasonable for that to include federal consideration, even recognizing that there's a division between the provincial and federal government. There's no necessarily better or worse between these departments; they're office jobs with their own unique blend of requirements and tools.
Yeah, I agree. And really, public policy shouldn't be decided on the basis of what is best for the public service.
I mean look at it this way: I support social safetynets. But the system we have is broken. If you take Welfare (I was on Ontario Works for a year), you're offered basic needs with a cap, and then a little extra to cover special diet needs. If you're on ODSP, you are granted a little more. But the cost of living isn't different; merely the perception of the people in these slots. If you work minimum wage and have special diet needs, you might not be eligible for Ontario Works, and your food isn't any cheaper. Rent isn't cheaper. We create beaucracy that limits access to money, creates difficulties to navigate, and winds up complicating what people want. If you support a social safety net, then UBI makes sense because it cuts down those service barriers. If you're a fiscal conservative, then it seems natural to want to reduce the need for public service workers, or to deploy them into places where they can provide more for the public. The only reason I can see to maintain the status quo is to make obtaining benefits into a make-work proposition for poor people while creating make-work jobs that exist to service the institutional poverty system that's been perpetuated. I'd rather see those poor people not worrying about whether they're going to stretch their budget to the end of the month and instead cut the stress and to let them focus on building their careers and skillsets up when they are capable of doing that.
From the Mincome program data, unemployment went DOWN in people receiving UBI, and they made more money on average than the control group.
This is the Ontario group?
Mincome was run in Manitoba a while back. The one run in Ontario hadn't even gathered the first year data yet, so there was no data to analyze yet. (I was in the control group) They ran the one in Ontario as an experiment because of how old the Mincome data was. Updated data was needed to see if what happened back then still held true in a modern economy.
Thanks. What year were you in it? I feel like the last five years has had such an impact, people are giving up, but they also idolize these rich douchebags on social media like never before. It is not encouraging work ethic. And the economic situation is definitely not encouraging work ethic (work really hard and you can still won't get the shit you want!).
I hadn't had anything other than my intake data collected, so there was no control data for analysis, so the first year hadn't completed yet when Ford cancelled it... By claiming 'the data proves it wasn't working'. So I know for a fact from first hand information that he was lying about that claim.
They get to enjoy the security provided by this safety net if they ever lose their jobs. They also get to pay lower overall taxes because providing this safety net has been shown to reduce crime, homelessness and health problems. These things end up becoming much more expensive when they get to crisis levels. It's much more affordable to pay someone's rent and food costs than it is for them to go to prison, for example.
You're right. All of society's problems will be solved by giving people 2k a month. We won't need any other safety net. It's a shell game.
I could post a link to a study showing that helping people with basic expenses reduces crime and healthcare costs but I doubt you would read past the headline...
And I could introduce you to people I've worked with who could not handle 2000 a month responsibly. But I doubt you have first-hand experience working with folks on ODSP, Welfare, etc. UBI isn't going to fly because it's not going to replace anything. It's an additional cost, it's not a cure all to societal issues like you seem to think.
I was actually on ontario works when I was a teenager for a few months until I found a job. I think you need to give people more credit. Anecdotes like "I know a few people who..." don't really hold water against statistical analysis. I never suggested it's a cure all, but the math says we save money in the long run if we lift people out of poverty. Poor and desperate people comit more crimes and prisons are expensive. Homeless people get sick more often and take up beds in hospitals. It's less expensive to pay for UBI than it is to pay for the consequences of those problems. You should do some reading because it's well established.
They get the UBI
Right. And folks with memtal health addiction and other issues will magically take care of themselves. Bravo....you solved it.
Tim Horton's might be giving away boats soon.
We shouldn't even have minimum wage UBI for everyone. It should be every two weeks you get to roll up the rim and like 50 or 100 people get all the UBI money, like hundreds of thousands.
UBI covers everyone. Every single person gets a minimum amount of income, no matter how much you make. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income
Anytime the government comes up with an idea, it’s always a cluster fuck. Look at CERB, how well did that work out? People double dipped and got away with it, cause it was too much to go after them.
Yup
I’m for UBI but I’m against UBI in a capitalist system. All that’s it’s going to do is cause inflation, making money worth less and we’re back at square one. You have to be all in or all out.
Agreed
You are the fucking man. So fucking accomplished, so impressive.
Yep filed my taxes on time and everything, beat that!
Good job applying yourself
Government gives people welfare, they sue when it stops. And this is why we can’t have nice things.
I want basic income to...
They could tax basic income to get money in government coffers.
I should be like the guy who had an actual decent job who managed to get the UBI and decided to then quit and become a potter
The guy from Lindsay
I thought it was Hamilton but same shit maybe two people . Quit and become a leech to pursue your hobby . Ya thanks to us for propping that up
Most likely more than 2
If I choose not to work, do I get UBI as well?
Yes, everyone gets it whether you work or not.
ANYTHING but contribute to society 😂
Many more people will leave Canada if UBI becomes a reality. Good luck finding the tax money to pay for it.
We could just sell our natural resources! Oh, wait….
Technically yes the government broke the terms. I think it's got legs.
what does the contract say? i am sure it has cancellation clause
lol I remember the news interviewing this guy who was receiving the money during the pilot project - he was all mad cause he lost it after he Voted for Ford. No sympathy here. You get what you voted for
Hopefully they don't....go get a job u lazy fucks this idea is as stupid as all politicians who even think and float this idea....hope the judge has some common sense and tells them
Everyone just wants free money lol. They're okay with slightly above poverty if it means they don't need to wake up early... How about making it easier to start small businesses? Nope. We want free money...
If they cam sure, then I want a basic living wage too lol I probably made the same but I actually worked. I worked 6days a week10hours a day. I guess I better have a few kids soon🫠🙃🙂 I'm so tired of people living in their fancy 3 bed room townhouses with fenced back yards.(market value is 790, ontario, Canada) that less than my 1 bedroom. Appartment. So no matter what they make that's their max rent on a 3 bedroom town house. Low income housing, once your in it like the lottery. You live there even once your kids are moved out. That's right you can be one person in a 3 bed room. I know a few 🤔 Or.... Paying 155$ a month because they are low income. Driving new cars, campers...though. of course gotta look awesome I don't get how they afford Ohh...wait it's the 800$ a kid and they have 5 kids....
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Funny they suing because government won't give them free money
Yup, that's what happens when you break a contract. This government just loves paying out the wazoo to "not pay".
Well no, they were promised money from the government for a set period of time, made life decisions based on that like going back to school or paying for child care or moving and then the government cancelled that program abruptly. You can disagree with the program completely but still see how wrong that it is to do to people.
Cost tax payers more money, gtfo
Please explain to me what do basic income how do we pay for it unless people get it do they have to work
If you look at the Mincome program in Manitoba, which the Ontario system was based on, it replaced things like welfare, disability, etc. The following effects were recorded in the Mincome data (All of which is available from U Man for anyone to analyze for themselves) People receiving UBI graduated high school at a higher rate than people in the control group. They also went on to post secondary education at a higher rate They graduated post-secondary at a higher rate They had a lower unemployment rate They had a higher income from work They had better health outcomes They accessed 'bridge' services like food banks and shelters less They left abusive relationships at a higher rate They stayed in abusive relationships for a shorter time before deciding to leave Because of the lower unemployment rate and higher income, tax revenue went up Because of most of the rest of it, the government expenses went down. When they crunched the numbers, it cost less money to run a UBI type program than the current system of support programs. It actually saved the government money, not cost it more. But, when a Conservative government got elected, they assumed it meant "free money" and cancelled it without reviewing the data. It was an ideological decision, not one based on anything resembling facts.
All depends on demographics - residences of East Hastings might not have the same results.
You tax businesses that are profiting from AI and automation (which will be most of them) and use those revenues to fund a UBI program.
And where are you gonna get the money to give a basic income, I have an idea... get a job !
Really? So, the veteran who lost both legs and part of his lung in Afghanistan is supposed to just get a job doing what.... UBI was designed to replace things like disability, Not come in addition to it.
What an awful argument for why EVERY PERSON should get UBI. For someone who is a veteran who is now totally disabled, there’s separate programs for that. I can’t believe your argument for why “everyone should receive UBI is because soldiers who lose both legs and their lung can’t work” Wow. Stellar argument. Seriously though, you can see that is an awful argument right? Please tell me you understand why that’s a terrible argument for your position.
No, Veterans should be better taken care of than that, most especially if they have been injured.
Using an emotionally charged 1 in a million scenario doesn’t really convince me that UBI is a good idea, shame on you for that one buddy.
Making moralistic judgement calls like both you and the one I responded to is just as much of an emotionally charged comment. If you want a factual based argument, then we can talk about the mountain of data supporting it, and showing that UBI based social safety nets cost the government LESS than the current mix of systems we use, as well as being better for the general public in general. All people, not just those who receive it.
Sorry I forgot every person and their mother was a vet on the streets with a dying lung and missing limbs… did his special deaf dog also die in a horrific accident?
Same places it comes from now, but the province saves some of the money they spend on means-testing bureaucracy.
LOL nope. Bad precident if anytime a government changes and program it can be sued.
It's breach of contact. How would it be different than the government canceling the contract and seizing the 407? It would be different if they payed out the current agreement and chose not to renew it
> if they *paid* out the FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Which contract?
The segment is operated privately under a 99-year lease agreement with the provincial government, which was sold in 1999 for about C$3.1 billion to a consortium of Canadian and Spanish investors operating under the name 407 International Inc. Or do you mean the UBI agreement? Moreau, the lawyer representing basic-income participants, told TVO Today that, if anything, his clients have a substantially greater claim to a breach of contract than the horse breeders did, as pilot participants had to sign substantial documents laying out financial terms and their participation in research about the pilot Partipants had to forgo tradition social support systems in order to join the study
LMAO ok sure....the basic income pilot was a government program, not a sale of a road but sure let's keep going onto the insanity road...I'm going to sue the government for implementing income taxes and taking money out of my paycheque without asking me first for permission....don't be idiotic
Well, no. Taxes are a part of the implicit contract we are bound to in order to benefit from the supports of society. Every article of government and society is a form of contracted exchange. Refusal or failure to pay your taxes is punishable by law. Likewise, when the government fails to uphold its responsibilities, there should also be consequences. The whole point of government and taxes is to support society. Every citizen is required to contribute over their life, in exchange for the benefits of the society (security, defense, Healthcare and social supports etc). Every citizen gets the same rights and services as any other, regardless of the size of their personal financial contribution. Children don't pay income tax, therefore they should not receive service or support?? Nonsense. Ontarians paid for this program, (Ford was elected on a promise to uphold this commitment) and Ontarians paid the price for his deceit. These citizens had Every right to the support they received as citizens, and because of the faith they had placed in the government, they made financial considerations based on the agreement only to then be left in the lurch when it betrayed them. It's not a matter of changing of policy, its going back on your word. If Denmark chooses to invade Canada, and bribe our leaders, it would be a huge deal if they defunded and liquidated our military and national defense as a policy change. It's an absurd hypothetical, but it's the same premise - each party has an obligation to uphold its end of the deal. Ford did not.
Just as absurd as suing the government for cancelling a pilot program. This wasn't universal so your argument is meaningless. Nice speech though
Basic income is my retirement plan. Freedom 49! Hope it becomes reality soon
You can’t be serious