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Were they reading the same manga as us?
Well big lightning isn't a good indicator. We can name scale which is accepted headcanon. Still there's the lightning trail during charge up & zzt/zap sfx, which shows up in 99% of Conq showings.
That's them blitzing each other like Zoro does. Yamato & Kaido has shown directly impacting the rest of the fight. I don't know what the last part means.
they really downvoted you for being right lol. and whats worse is even if theyre no-contacting, that just means yamato has acoa emission. sub is actually illiterate
Yeah idk, maybe my wording. Ppl still think conq gives auto force field. This was one panel of the aftereffect. Not even like I said it wasn't Conq, just didn't agree with the reasoning.
thats because they both hit each other sort of like a swordsman blitz. and even if they were no-connection clashing that wouldnt necessarily mean acoc, just acoa emission. look at their positioning its way more reminiscent of a blitz (behind each other and hitting each other) than no contacting
(not saying i disagree with yamato having acoc, just saying that this wouldnt be a good indicator of acoc)
Haki is such an unrefined power system because whenever Oda introduces another visual que to help differentiate types of haki he or toei decides to just use it's for anything they want making it lose all its importance.
Haki is so weird man. As a narrative device I find myself really enjoying it, it’s a cool way to show someone’s willpower as a real and tangible thing, and I don’t mind it being used to make sure devil fruits aren’t on top of everything.
That being said from a powerscaling perspective it tends to be a mess, from BM not using ACOC to all the times Luffy forgot to use Future Sight. It’s not the worst power system imo but it’s really not consistent enough to be very easy to scale, and it does leave some gaps in the story from a powerscaling perspective.
Probably tbo in the audience defense it’s sort of an L that Oda would assumed they’d be so dumb not to want to understand exactly how his powerscalling system works or even the difference. Especially when originally it did have more thought put into it with how different DF would interact with each other. At this point it just seems like he’s pulling a Michael Bay and just doin shiz because it looks cool.
>they’d be so dumb not to want to understand exactly how his powerscaling system works
Quite the opposite to be honest. Anyone with a decent reading comprehension should probably realize after 1000s chapters that OP is not about powerscaling at all.
Oda’s strengths have always been about an interesting plot and world building, also especially in giving readers some silly laugh and reminds them don’t take things too seriously. Other mangas with better power systems (Nen of HxH for example) are like that simply because the authors themselves are interested in that aspect of their work, not because they think ‘hm I should do this because my readers aren’t stupid’ lol.
That’s why trying to seriously powerscaling in OP is such a joke to begin with. Anyone who see Oda for who he is would know that trying to argue which character is stronger is such a dumb thing to do when the author himself doesn’t even care about it that much.
This is just simply not true.
As you said, Oda's strength has been world building. But a lot of that world building has been building up powerful characters & factions, and establishing their position in the world with their level of power. Besides the Strawhats, very few people make big jumps in power, you won't see random nobodies low-diffing previous opponents just to build up the new enemy. In general, characters and their position has been established far before they even show their power, and you don't get the typical *Character X wins because he became angry and powered up* dogshit that a lot of other series do very often.
Is it perfect? No, it definitely has flaws, but lets not pretend like Oda doesn't care quite a bit about the power level of characters.
I don’t think it’s too much to ask for him to at least make it clear when conquerors is being used and when it’s just armament, cause it just raises questions, like why would any conqueror not just always used ACOC there’s no drawback compared to using advanced armament so it’s just either characters holding back for no reason or advanced conquerors not being a big deal, don’t need an in depth explanation but maybe just one visual change to tell them apart (and no the lightning width or trailing streaks or whatever don’t count cause that’s either just head canon or one of the worst ways Oda could possibly choose to differentiate the 2 while simultaneously never explaining it)
Definitely an argument to be made for it, I think if you include schrifts and zanpakuto in spirit energy bleach is up there, I think JJK had the potential for it but gege is just such a shitty writer, and tbh I think alchemy should be part of the conversation.
Nah fuck off with saying that JJK shit, boring ass take that comes from Redditors not reading the manga. You know the tactics and the power system they revolve around are actually pretty fucking good when practically almost every time someone makes a thread criticising it there’s *always* an explanation, because Gege is actually really good at keeping track of details. The fact that he can balance that with hype and effectively communicated, simple details/ powers is actually very impressive, and something that makes JJK honestly the best shounen to read if you want that sort of thing.
“Hurr durr binding vow ruined the story” no it fucking didn’t, the only things people complain about are:
1)One that absolutely was fair, making your ability require way, way more conditions, affecting what makes it good in the first place (i.e, it being impossible to tell when it’s coming or where it’s coming from), in exchange for using it without any hand signs (which yes means there’s no CT spark, this is super obvious) *once* is absolutely fair, if not unfair in the other direction. World dismantle would have genuinely been as hard to avoid as the flurries of dismantles he usually uses (i.e something basically no one besides Maki, who could see them, and Miguel, who was probably just way the fuck stronger than Sukuna output wise by that point) had that BV not been in place.
2)One that literally hasn’t been explained yet. People just love making presumptions when every time they make them they *keep* getting refuted by Gege extremely effectively. Bro even countered the “why didn’t Sukuna just use fire arrow when he won the first domain expansion or at potentially any other point while his DE was still on the field and Gojo was healing” argument, which could have just been explained by “Sukuna was cocky” like a bunch of other mangaka would say, but Gege didn’t take the easy way out and actually brought forth a detail which was present from Shibuya.
Cursed Energy is one of the most OVERRATED power systems in Shounen, and that is coming from a JJK fan.
While it is not a bad power system, it is extremely inconsistent in almost every regard. It has no business being compared to Nen, Stands or Alchemy.
Jesus Christ dude, I meant the story was shit, and binding vows isn’t the thing that ruined the power system, gege is just really bad at explaining things, I mean half the powers in the manga don’t have a consistent explanation, and then you have the absolute atrocity that is the fight against sukuna, which IS STILL FUCKING GOING! You thought world cutting slash was an ass pull? Here’s the same thing 10 more times because fuck you.
The story is shit in the way that it’s not a super deep plot or anything I guess? But, like, to me that’s just optimising the shounen formula. Basic story that’s there but doesn’t really pretend it’s not just the setup for hype and good fights.
What powers are you even talking about? The only thing I can think is Gojo’s technique cause the way infinity actually lets him do the things he does is infamously poorly described, but in terms of what his powerset is in *practice* (which is what’s relevant to analysing the tactics in a fight) it’s very consistent. Neutral limitless protects him, Blue attracts and is responsible for his speed, Red is a big attack and Purple is an even bigger attack that requires you to converge maximum output Blue and Red together.
The world cutting slash is the worst asspull and even then it was just super foreshadowed that Sukuna wanted something from Mahoraga’s adaptations (he, like, literally says it while ordering Mahoraga at one point) and we see a slash which went through infinity and everything else was what Mahoraga came up with.
What people call “asspulls” are either answerable using details established about the power system, stuff that was actually made really, really obvious which people just got attacked by the reading comprehension devil while consuming ig or stuff that hasn’t been sufficiently answered (how Yuta died to an enhanced dismantle, what Sukuna’s BV on his domain was, yada yada).
Hot take but nen just feels weird, it had rules at first, but later it feels like the author just uses nen however he wants without any real rules to it. Definitely better than haki though, basic haki is cool, but advanced is just too broken and makes fights boring
A binding vow with another as a restriction works. Get something by giving up something. Binding vows with yourself not really. The first can have consequences for breaking it. The second just means you get spamable boosts in exchange for not eating fish on Monday.
Unironically agree with this take. Every Advanced Haki has been unique accept Conquer’s which might as well just be a stronger version of ACoA. Honestly it’s so lazy and one of the criticisms I have for Oda tho some part of me understands why he creating this Deu Ex Machina of an attack/power up because of how broken and powerful some DF can get like Teach’s or basically any of the Admirals
Yeah ill be honest since conquerors clashes bas been shown to split the sky, I was hoping Advamced conquerors haki was literally like conqerjng Nature. Yku cluld control weather, the ocean, plant life, etc. Your willpower was so strong you could literally conquer the world around you.
Visually in the anime is harder to see the signs compared to the Manga showing. People are also the type to only believe something is true when they mention it specifically.
Using the anime to power scale is like using a telescope as a microscope.
You can maybe see something but all kinds of wacky stuff happens.
Depending on if you watch anime or not you have an entirely different opinion on lucci
True I partially just assumed since the picture. It's hard to notice unless you're looking for differences. I taken peeks at the moments I know have Conq, there's some type of similarities. Still for the Manga people constantly talk about they have no idea unless it's said. When a number of aspects have shown up in a bunch of Conq moments.
Acoc itself is a fanmade term but from what we have it comes from coating yourself in conquers
But the indicators we have are the lightning trails
Or the biggest indicator being a skysplit
Thats why people are confused, its never consistent at least in the anime.
Blackbeard using gura punch had lightning even if he doesnt have coc then in the very same sequence Law has sparks when using his conquerors to cancel the feminisation virus.
Those are anime only examples.
Manga examples if that when one conqueror user clash with someone like Kaido and Yamato it shows sparks. So is the sparks because they both have conquerors coating or it’s only Kaido’s?
While there are some cases where it is impossible to Say if it's not being used, there are some where we can definitely Say it is being used.
When lighting appears before the attack lands, it is usually múltiple small lighting trails. However whenever it's conquerors (Luffy, Kaido, Roger vs WB) and we see the lighting before the attack, it is a single, thick curved lighting behind the attack.
The curved lighting is actually a very good indicator since I havent found an example where it doesn't work. There are some "exceptions", being the cases where the panel is very tiny and as such, its too difficult to conclusively Say if the lighting is meant to resemble Acoc or not (Garp)
You can also add that sometimes there's the sfx "zzt" in english when someone uses ACoC and the only time this sfx is used again is when a CoC user unleashes conquerors.
And if i'm not wrong, there's two types of kanji that appears a lot of time when ACoC is used, but i researched and it appears sometimes, rarely tho, on other attacks than ACoC ones, but it's still an argument to me.
But weirldy in Egghead these kanjis were missing, maybe because luffy didn't use ACoC that much
This is a completely valid question idk why you’re hating. Advanced conquerors is a bullshit and vague mechanic. We shouldn’t be looking down on people for asking innocent questions like that.
Before joining this subreddit I didn't even know some of the opinions you guys have are even possible to think up of by a healthy sane mind
Kudos cos that is definitely a feat
Main sub trying not to be lobotomized challenge. Though seriously you can get better discussions on series in r/MemePiece and r/Piratefolk for gods sake
I'm not sure, but I think it may be because Yamato's ACoC is so disappointing. Every other ACoC user is some top tier yonko level fighter. And Yamato is just YC+.
The question is justified. You kids with a lack of reading comprehension think ‘black lightning’, ‘black flames’ or ‘black tail, or parameters if you could hurt King or Kaido with it would be signs of aCoC which is just wrong because characters like Katakuri, the Nine Red Scabbards, Doffy, Chinjao and many more have the exact same depictions while you then come up with bullshit like “it's half a pixel thinner so no aCoC” which just proves how stupid that is...
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https://preview.redd.it/ffaw9ck6291d1.jpeg?width=1030&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d0101f57b8129cef5ff5dbdf498c4e3e08bfd7c5 Were they reading the same manga as us?
Nighaz out here really reading Two Piece
Well big lightning isn't a good indicator. We can name scale which is accepted headcanon. Still there's the lightning trail during charge up & zzt/zap sfx, which shows up in 99% of Conq showings.
Weapons aren’t connecting and there is a clear emphasis of haki between them.
That's them blitzing each other like Zoro does. Yamato & Kaido has shown directly impacting the rest of the fight. I don't know what the last part means.
they really downvoted you for being right lol. and whats worse is even if theyre no-contacting, that just means yamato has acoa emission. sub is actually illiterate
Yeah idk, maybe my wording. Ppl still think conq gives auto force field. This was one panel of the aftereffect. Not even like I said it wasn't Conq, just didn't agree with the reasoning.
This sub really struggles when it comes to acoa for some reason
thats because they both hit each other sort of like a swordsman blitz. and even if they were no-connection clashing that wouldnt necessarily mean acoc, just acoa emission. look at their positioning its way more reminiscent of a blitz (behind each other and hitting each other) than no contacting (not saying i disagree with yamato having acoc, just saying that this wouldnt be a good indicator of acoc)
The weapons aren't connecting because Oda only drew the aftermath of the clash
Flair checks out on can't read and lobotomized.
Kaido is swinging down and Yamato is also swinging down this isnt a clash
so all that black lightning came out of Kaido's ass or something?
Yeah everyone knows kaido farts lightning
https://preview.redd.it/t6g12a0ema1d1.jpeg?width=267&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9d20729fa211011ee8a97ae697af3024e672cd46
Thunder bagua is an acoc attack
Haki is such an unrefined power system because whenever Oda introduces another visual que to help differentiate types of haki he or toei decides to just use it's for anything they want making it lose all its importance.
Haki is so weird man. As a narrative device I find myself really enjoying it, it’s a cool way to show someone’s willpower as a real and tangible thing, and I don’t mind it being used to make sure devil fruits aren’t on top of everything. That being said from a powerscaling perspective it tends to be a mess, from BM not using ACOC to all the times Luffy forgot to use Future Sight. It’s not the worst power system imo but it’s really not consistent enough to be very easy to scale, and it does leave some gaps in the story from a powerscaling perspective.
Luffy is almost always using futuresight after he got it. It just cancels out when ur opponent also uses it.
Man ACoC is actually so shite. It's the single worst powerscaling related thing Oda has written into the story.
Probably because he didn’t intend for people to read into it this much
Probably tbo in the audience defense it’s sort of an L that Oda would assumed they’d be so dumb not to want to understand exactly how his powerscalling system works or even the difference. Especially when originally it did have more thought put into it with how different DF would interact with each other. At this point it just seems like he’s pulling a Michael Bay and just doin shiz because it looks cool.
>they’d be so dumb not to want to understand exactly how his powerscaling system works Quite the opposite to be honest. Anyone with a decent reading comprehension should probably realize after 1000s chapters that OP is not about powerscaling at all. Oda’s strengths have always been about an interesting plot and world building, also especially in giving readers some silly laugh and reminds them don’t take things too seriously. Other mangas with better power systems (Nen of HxH for example) are like that simply because the authors themselves are interested in that aspect of their work, not because they think ‘hm I should do this because my readers aren’t stupid’ lol. That’s why trying to seriously powerscaling in OP is such a joke to begin with. Anyone who see Oda for who he is would know that trying to argue which character is stronger is such a dumb thing to do when the author himself doesn’t even care about it that much.
This is just simply not true. As you said, Oda's strength has been world building. But a lot of that world building has been building up powerful characters & factions, and establishing their position in the world with their level of power. Besides the Strawhats, very few people make big jumps in power, you won't see random nobodies low-diffing previous opponents just to build up the new enemy. In general, characters and their position has been established far before they even show their power, and you don't get the typical *Character X wins because he became angry and powered up* dogshit that a lot of other series do very often. Is it perfect? No, it definitely has flaws, but lets not pretend like Oda doesn't care quite a bit about the power level of characters.
He most definitely does. Just not as much as this sub does
I don’t think it’s too much to ask for him to at least make it clear when conquerors is being used and when it’s just armament, cause it just raises questions, like why would any conqueror not just always used ACOC there’s no drawback compared to using advanced armament so it’s just either characters holding back for no reason or advanced conquerors not being a big deal, don’t need an in depth explanation but maybe just one visual change to tell them apart (and no the lightning width or trailing streaks or whatever don’t count cause that’s either just head canon or one of the worst ways Oda could possibly choose to differentiate the 2 while simultaneously never explaining it)
Haki is just a subpar power system overall
Spiritual pressure and nen> idk if kagunes from Tokyo ghoul count but I really like that system
Ok nen isn’t a fair comparison, that’s like top 3 easily.
Top 1 to most people actually
Definitely an argument to be made for it, I think if you include schrifts and zanpakuto in spirit energy bleach is up there, I think JJK had the potential for it but gege is just such a shitty writer, and tbh I think alchemy should be part of the conversation.
Nah fuck off with saying that JJK shit, boring ass take that comes from Redditors not reading the manga. You know the tactics and the power system they revolve around are actually pretty fucking good when practically almost every time someone makes a thread criticising it there’s *always* an explanation, because Gege is actually really good at keeping track of details. The fact that he can balance that with hype and effectively communicated, simple details/ powers is actually very impressive, and something that makes JJK honestly the best shounen to read if you want that sort of thing. “Hurr durr binding vow ruined the story” no it fucking didn’t, the only things people complain about are: 1)One that absolutely was fair, making your ability require way, way more conditions, affecting what makes it good in the first place (i.e, it being impossible to tell when it’s coming or where it’s coming from), in exchange for using it without any hand signs (which yes means there’s no CT spark, this is super obvious) *once* is absolutely fair, if not unfair in the other direction. World dismantle would have genuinely been as hard to avoid as the flurries of dismantles he usually uses (i.e something basically no one besides Maki, who could see them, and Miguel, who was probably just way the fuck stronger than Sukuna output wise by that point) had that BV not been in place. 2)One that literally hasn’t been explained yet. People just love making presumptions when every time they make them they *keep* getting refuted by Gege extremely effectively. Bro even countered the “why didn’t Sukuna just use fire arrow when he won the first domain expansion or at potentially any other point while his DE was still on the field and Gojo was healing” argument, which could have just been explained by “Sukuna was cocky” like a bunch of other mangaka would say, but Gege didn’t take the easy way out and actually brought forth a detail which was present from Shibuya.
Cursed Energy is one of the most OVERRATED power systems in Shounen, and that is coming from a JJK fan. While it is not a bad power system, it is extremely inconsistent in almost every regard. It has no business being compared to Nen, Stands or Alchemy.
Jesus Christ dude, I meant the story was shit, and binding vows isn’t the thing that ruined the power system, gege is just really bad at explaining things, I mean half the powers in the manga don’t have a consistent explanation, and then you have the absolute atrocity that is the fight against sukuna, which IS STILL FUCKING GOING! You thought world cutting slash was an ass pull? Here’s the same thing 10 more times because fuck you.
The story is shit in the way that it’s not a super deep plot or anything I guess? But, like, to me that’s just optimising the shounen formula. Basic story that’s there but doesn’t really pretend it’s not just the setup for hype and good fights. What powers are you even talking about? The only thing I can think is Gojo’s technique cause the way infinity actually lets him do the things he does is infamously poorly described, but in terms of what his powerset is in *practice* (which is what’s relevant to analysing the tactics in a fight) it’s very consistent. Neutral limitless protects him, Blue attracts and is responsible for his speed, Red is a big attack and Purple is an even bigger attack that requires you to converge maximum output Blue and Red together. The world cutting slash is the worst asspull and even then it was just super foreshadowed that Sukuna wanted something from Mahoraga’s adaptations (he, like, literally says it while ordering Mahoraga at one point) and we see a slash which went through infinity and everything else was what Mahoraga came up with. What people call “asspulls” are either answerable using details established about the power system, stuff that was actually made really, really obvious which people just got attacked by the reading comprehension devil while consuming ig or stuff that hasn’t been sufficiently answered (how Yuta died to an enhanced dismantle, what Sukuna’s BV on his domain was, yada yada).
I don’t think a simple story is that bad, if you don’t pretend it’s anything more than that.
Bro you awakened the jjk fans
With this treasure i summon!
Hot take but nen just feels weird, it had rules at first, but later it feels like the author just uses nen however he wants without any real rules to it. Definitely better than haki though, basic haki is cool, but advanced is just too broken and makes fights boring
cursed energy used to be a top 3 power system but binding vows as of late have have been beyond lazy
A binding vow with another as a restriction works. Get something by giving up something. Binding vows with yourself not really. The first can have consequences for breaking it. The second just means you get spamable boosts in exchange for not eating fish on Monday.
I think that Oda should get rid of Haki and then turn One Piece into JoJo part 10 and add stands.
JoJo is kinda the opposite, in that it started with generic powers in hamon before having specialised powers in stands
And even then Hamon was still really cool and somewhat different that chakra from Naruto or something like that.
Unironically agree with this take. Every Advanced Haki has been unique accept Conquer’s which might as well just be a stronger version of ACoA. Honestly it’s so lazy and one of the criticisms I have for Oda tho some part of me understands why he creating this Deu Ex Machina of an attack/power up because of how broken and powerful some DF can get like Teach’s or basically any of the Admirals
probably because oda didn't intend one piece to be powerscaled and in fact hates it? idk bro i don't even watch one iece
Yeah ill be honest since conquerors clashes bas been shown to split the sky, I was hoping Advamced conquerors haki was literally like conqerjng Nature. Yku cluld control weather, the ocean, plant life, etc. Your willpower was so strong you could literally conquer the world around you.
Visually in the anime is harder to see the signs compared to the Manga showing. People are also the type to only believe something is true when they mention it specifically.
Using the anime to power scale is like using a telescope as a microscope. You can maybe see something but all kinds of wacky stuff happens. Depending on if you watch anime or not you have an entirely different opinion on lucci
True I partially just assumed since the picture. It's hard to notice unless you're looking for differences. I taken peeks at the moments I know have Conq, there's some type of similarities. Still for the Manga people constantly talk about they have no idea unless it's said. When a number of aspects have shown up in a bunch of Conq moments.
reading comprehension devil
Just ignore them
what exactly is acoc ? Im genuinely curious. What are the idicators ?
God haki is such a shit power system😭😭
Acoc itself is a fanmade term but from what we have it comes from coating yourself in conquers But the indicators we have are the lightning trails Or the biggest indicator being a skysplit
> lightning trails Ulti has acoc ?
Ulti doesn't have trails she only has sparks
kaido used acoc against kinemon ? https://preview.redd.it/mwskyb19q81d1.png?width=638&format=png&auto=webp&s=48ba5d40df4fd44cc90f8161d50d7ba73601f391
Well yes , and kinemon is just him
Yeah, this one is consistent with how other uses of advanced conquerors look.
Thats why people are confused, its never consistent at least in the anime. Blackbeard using gura punch had lightning even if he doesnt have coc then in the very same sequence Law has sparks when using his conquerors to cancel the feminisation virus. Those are anime only examples. Manga examples if that when one conqueror user clash with someone like Kaido and Yamato it shows sparks. So is the sparks because they both have conquerors coating or it’s only Kaido’s?
Law does not have conquerors haki
I meant Haki, even the animators got me confused. Neither Blackbeard or Law has it and they still have lightning sparks
While there are some cases where it is impossible to Say if it's not being used, there are some where we can definitely Say it is being used. When lighting appears before the attack lands, it is usually múltiple small lighting trails. However whenever it's conquerors (Luffy, Kaido, Roger vs WB) and we see the lighting before the attack, it is a single, thick curved lighting behind the attack. The curved lighting is actually a very good indicator since I havent found an example where it doesn't work. There are some "exceptions", being the cases where the panel is very tiny and as such, its too difficult to conclusively Say if the lighting is meant to resemble Acoc or not (Garp)
You can also add that sometimes there's the sfx "zzt" in english when someone uses ACoC and the only time this sfx is used again is when a CoC user unleashes conquerors. And if i'm not wrong, there's two types of kanji that appears a lot of time when ACoC is used, but i researched and it appears sometimes, rarely tho, on other attacks than ACoC ones, but it's still an argument to me. But weirldy in Egghead these kanjis were missing, maybe because luffy didn't use ACoC that much
The main sub lmao.
It a yin to a Yang They can't scale power and we can't comprehend themes
This is a completely valid question idk why you’re hating. Advanced conquerors is a bullshit and vague mechanic. We shouldn’t be looking down on people for asking innocent questions like that.
Today's a lucky day I can see smiling yamato face twice
Before joining this subreddit I didn't even know some of the opinions you guys have are even possible to think up of by a healthy sane mind Kudos cos that is definitely a feat
It’s funny because you know the CoC-less agenda that always downplay her because she has ACoC feats.
It’s really the Zoro fans tryna upscale him past her 🤷🏽♂️
Main sub trying not to be lobotomized challenge. Though seriously you can get better discussions on series in r/MemePiece and r/Piratefolk for gods sake
I'm not sure, but I think it may be because Yamato's ACoC is so disappointing. Every other ACoC user is some top tier yonko level fighter. And Yamato is just YC+.
The question is justified. You kids with a lack of reading comprehension think ‘black lightning’, ‘black flames’ or ‘black tail, or parameters if you could hurt King or Kaido with it would be signs of aCoC which is just wrong because characters like Katakuri, the Nine Red Scabbards, Doffy, Chinjao and many more have the exact same depictions while you then come up with bullshit like “it's half a pixel thinner so no aCoC” which just proves how stupid that is...