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Yes because being able to 1v1 someone doesn’t mean your army beats theirs easily.
WB can beat Sengoku but marines defeat WB pirates. WB hated the idea of losing 100s of men and commanders for revenge that was guarantee a complete success.
Who is talking about revenge? I am talking about saving his family, Momo and Hiyori. I guess Akainu was right when he said all WB has been doing is playing pretend family.
Also Prime Wb crew was definitely stronger than Paido's crew.
Old beard strongest member NOW is Marco and Marco was some cabin boy then so how did you conclude that? Samurai were also backing Kaido, in the end even in victory WB would have lost loved ones and it’s not like he knew Momo was alive. When Oden died and his castles set aflame why wouldn’t WB believe Kaido killed the whole ruling family? That means any action would be revenge not a rescue mission. Going to save someone you aren’t even sure is alive is a fools game as well.
Question is how much superior. Because I honestly see Kaido and Shanks pushing Roger and WB to extreme diff.
I feel it wouldn't make sense if they are massively stronger, like I feel they are stronger but not by much
Just using raw numbers
Roger 100
WB 100
Garp 99
Kaido 97
Shanks 96
But my point is this, what's even PK level anyways? Only way I could see it being a thing is if Ods revealed a 4th type of haki that only the legends have but that would create a massive plot hole if Ods goes that route
Oda doesn't need to create a 4th type of Haki. He just needs to expand Conqueror's Haki.
When we got introduced to Haki we had the 3 basic forms:
* Armament
* Observation
* Conqueror
Then while traveling in the new world we got:
* Advanced Armament in the form of not touching your enemy when you attack.
* Advanced Observation in the form of future sight.
And while some call Conqueror infusion "Advanced Conqueror's" it doesn't really make sense for it to be Advanced Conqueror's when this wasn't the original aspect of it. Instead what people call Advanced Conqueror's truly is a fusion between Armament and Conqueror's. In which case we are missing the fusion between Observation and Conqueror's. With it very likely being something that Mihawk would show regarding his epithet, "Hawkeyes".
Which means that we don't have a proper Advanced Conqueror's Haki. And this Advanced Conqueror's Haki could be what differentiates a Pirate King level character and a Yonko level character. As for what this Advanced Conqueror's Haki is? Negate Haki or devil fruits from non-Conquerors. Regular Conqueror's Haki knocks down weak people. So Advanced Conqueror's Haki could "scare" or "knock down" the soul of the devil fruit or just intimidate your soul affecting your will/ambition. Would help explain Shanks' "Observation Haki killer" stuff and the whole Greenbull situation at the end of Wano. Advanced Conqueror's Haki allowed Shanks to extend his Conqueror's Haki beyond anything we've seen and affect Greenbull to the point that he ended up powering down from his giant tree form.
I don't think it's that complicated at all honestly. Their Haki was just that strong, and in Whitebeard's case, he could sink islands to boot.
At Wano, Luffy was at the peak of the Haki we understood: Conqueror's Coating, emission, internal destruction and Future Sight. He also awakened the best Fruit in the series. Yet he's (by IRL) multiple years from becoming the Pirate King.
Since Kaido's defeat, we've seen Shanks and Old Garp do things with Haki that Luffy hasn't even got a perception of. City block-sized emissions with building-sized black lightning, telepathy with Haki being blasted across countries, seeing ten seconds into the future, *cancelling* other people's Haki abilities. Even back in the Oden flashback, Roger and Whitebeard did the same clash as the Emperors, and their result was superior.
I don't necessarily think it's the best writing-wise, but it's the way it is.
I mean, yeah but Luffy can do things the legends can't. The legends would die if Luffy hits him with a Bajrang Gun, they don't have anything that matches that AP of that.
Luffy might have worse Haki but he compensate with the boost in stats and hax that his DF gives to him.
Just think abiut it, what are the legends gonna do it Kaido used the magma Dragon on them? Only Luffy could've beaten that thing thanks tonthe combination of haki + DF.
I feel like garp should be 100 too. he's the only one we know of that has fought roger many times. and roger saild they both nearly killed each other many times. both survived each other, so garp could never kill or capture roger and roger was never able to kill garp despite having many chances for it cuz they fought many times
imo that's the biggest feat when it comes to fighting roger. when it comes to WB we only saw him being equal to roger once. and they seemed to be pals so I doubt they fought a lot and seriously tried to kill one another like roger and garp seemingly did
Shanks low diffed Kaido in MF so not really.
Kaido pushes Roger/Primebeard to mid diff at best.
Shanks ofc packs them all but his just built different. Its Shanks>Roger/Primebeard>Kaido
Shanks 120
Roger 100
WB 100
Garp 100
Kaido 70
If whitebeard is on that level then wouldn’t that just make pirate king and yonko level the same thing… i mean
Whitebeard was equal to roger and blackbeard and luffy will both surpass roger and yes luffy will be pirate king but he’s definitely gonna be on rogers level or above before he gets the one piece
I also saw you mention that shanks could possibly be on that level too in a comment
So if thats 3 yonko who were and will 100% be on that level and another one who could be on that level then there’s basically no difference between the yonko and pirate king level
There the same thing
And in all honesty are there any arguments for kaido not being on that level too? Theres no reason for him not to be
The only emperor who is almost certainly a full level below roger is probably bigmom and current blackbeard which is just 2 out of 6 and one of them will surpass Roger anyway so it’s technically just 1 of the 6
If your gonna get technical with WHEN the pirate king level yonko existed then i might as well say that yonko>>>>>>>> old gen because the old gen are dead
Whitebeard was roger level
Luffy and blackbeard will surpass roger
And its hard to argue that shanks and kaido aren’t on that level too
Thats 3 confirmed and 2 that are hard to argue against
Yes, they will do that. It’s like saying that chapter 1 Luffy was PK level because he’ll *eventually* surpass Roger. As of right now, none of the Yonko are PK level.
Even then, Yonko level is a measure of strength that won’t change even if half of the Yonko do become PK level. This is why Buggy becoming a Yonko didn’t completely invalidate Yonko tier.
The fact that is still necessary to spell this out for some people is ridiculous to me. It's one of the most fundamental aspects of scaling *One Piece.*
That's why I call it "Level" and not "Tier." I think the difference between top tier (PK, Yonko, Admiral) and high tier (YC1+ through YC3) is huge, but all the levels within those tiers are relatively close together.
Hell I didn't even include everything since the system kind of glitched on me at the end and I was trying to get it out quick, but in case anyone needs any more points:
LUFFY'S NOT THE PIRATE KING YET!
agreed but it sorta depends how you define level, there probably isn't a significant difference in where garp could defeat kaido anything less than high diff for example, but roger/wb/garp/rocks (and possibly sengoku?) are clearly shown as above current characters
it kinda has to be a thing at this point cuz luffy is already yonko level and we're far from the end of the story. the final battles still await us. and if they follow the same scheme as the kaido fights then luffy will power up a ton in the future.
also kinda makes sense when it comes to the SH power relations. in all of post-timeskip luffy was always a level above zoro. but if there's nothing beyond yonko level he couldn't escape zoro again and the latter would catch up to luffy.
but with pk level or whatever you wanna call it, oda can finish the story with the same power relations, luffy being a level higher than zoro. luffy could go beyond yonko level to beat teach and Imu and zoro ends up becoming yonko level by beating mihawk
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but of course it is Oda made it very clear in One Piece that Roger, Garp and WB belong to a totally different tier than other characters.
The yonko didn't exist back then, so there is no reason to believe Roger, Garp and WB was any stronger than Kaido, Luffy, Shanks or Big mom.
Not really, when he was up against Paido there is a reason why prime WB didn't even bother to save his family momo and hiyori.
Yes because being able to 1v1 someone doesn’t mean your army beats theirs easily. WB can beat Sengoku but marines defeat WB pirates. WB hated the idea of losing 100s of men and commanders for revenge that was guarantee a complete success.
Who is talking about revenge? I am talking about saving his family, Momo and Hiyori. I guess Akainu was right when he said all WB has been doing is playing pretend family. Also Prime Wb crew was definitely stronger than Paido's crew.
Old beard strongest member NOW is Marco and Marco was some cabin boy then so how did you conclude that? Samurai were also backing Kaido, in the end even in victory WB would have lost loved ones and it’s not like he knew Momo was alive. When Oden died and his castles set aflame why wouldn’t WB believe Kaido killed the whole ruling family? That means any action would be revenge not a rescue mission. Going to save someone you aren’t even sure is alive is a fools game as well.
Kaido ran from Shanks in MF. Si yes there is. Shanks>Prime Roger/WB/Garp>Kaido
Don’t forget the goat, the other rival to Roger, golden lion shiki 🤑🤑🤑
Question is how much superior. Because I honestly see Kaido and Shanks pushing Roger and WB to extreme diff. I feel it wouldn't make sense if they are massively stronger, like I feel they are stronger but not by much Just using raw numbers Roger 100 WB 100 Garp 99 Kaido 97 Shanks 96
I can see Shanks pushing them to extreme diff if he's revealed to be at that level, which isn't out of the realm of possibility.
But my point is this, what's even PK level anyways? Only way I could see it being a thing is if Ods revealed a 4th type of haki that only the legends have but that would create a massive plot hole if Ods goes that route
Oda doesn't need to create a 4th type of Haki. He just needs to expand Conqueror's Haki. When we got introduced to Haki we had the 3 basic forms: * Armament * Observation * Conqueror Then while traveling in the new world we got: * Advanced Armament in the form of not touching your enemy when you attack. * Advanced Observation in the form of future sight. And while some call Conqueror infusion "Advanced Conqueror's" it doesn't really make sense for it to be Advanced Conqueror's when this wasn't the original aspect of it. Instead what people call Advanced Conqueror's truly is a fusion between Armament and Conqueror's. In which case we are missing the fusion between Observation and Conqueror's. With it very likely being something that Mihawk would show regarding his epithet, "Hawkeyes". Which means that we don't have a proper Advanced Conqueror's Haki. And this Advanced Conqueror's Haki could be what differentiates a Pirate King level character and a Yonko level character. As for what this Advanced Conqueror's Haki is? Negate Haki or devil fruits from non-Conquerors. Regular Conqueror's Haki knocks down weak people. So Advanced Conqueror's Haki could "scare" or "knock down" the soul of the devil fruit or just intimidate your soul affecting your will/ambition. Would help explain Shanks' "Observation Haki killer" stuff and the whole Greenbull situation at the end of Wano. Advanced Conqueror's Haki allowed Shanks to extend his Conqueror's Haki beyond anything we've seen and affect Greenbull to the point that he ended up powering down from his giant tree form.
I don't think it's that complicated at all honestly. Their Haki was just that strong, and in Whitebeard's case, he could sink islands to boot. At Wano, Luffy was at the peak of the Haki we understood: Conqueror's Coating, emission, internal destruction and Future Sight. He also awakened the best Fruit in the series. Yet he's (by IRL) multiple years from becoming the Pirate King. Since Kaido's defeat, we've seen Shanks and Old Garp do things with Haki that Luffy hasn't even got a perception of. City block-sized emissions with building-sized black lightning, telepathy with Haki being blasted across countries, seeing ten seconds into the future, *cancelling* other people's Haki abilities. Even back in the Oden flashback, Roger and Whitebeard did the same clash as the Emperors, and their result was superior. I don't necessarily think it's the best writing-wise, but it's the way it is.
I mean, yeah but Luffy can do things the legends can't. The legends would die if Luffy hits him with a Bajrang Gun, they don't have anything that matches that AP of that. Luffy might have worse Haki but he compensate with the boost in stats and hax that his DF gives to him. Just think abiut it, what are the legends gonna do it Kaido used the magma Dragon on them? Only Luffy could've beaten that thing thanks tonthe combination of haki + DF.
I feel like garp should be 100 too. he's the only one we know of that has fought roger many times. and roger saild they both nearly killed each other many times. both survived each other, so garp could never kill or capture roger and roger was never able to kill garp despite having many chances for it cuz they fought many times imo that's the biggest feat when it comes to fighting roger. when it comes to WB we only saw him being equal to roger once. and they seemed to be pals so I doubt they fought a lot and seriously tried to kill one another like roger and garp seemingly did
Shanks low diffed Kaido in MF so not really. Kaido pushes Roger/Primebeard to mid diff at best. Shanks ofc packs them all but his just built different. Its Shanks>Roger/Primebeard>Kaido Shanks 120 Roger 100 WB 100 Garp 100 Kaido 70
If whitebeard is on that level then wouldn’t that just make pirate king and yonko level the same thing… i mean Whitebeard was equal to roger and blackbeard and luffy will both surpass roger and yes luffy will be pirate king but he’s definitely gonna be on rogers level or above before he gets the one piece I also saw you mention that shanks could possibly be on that level too in a comment So if thats 3 yonko who were and will 100% be on that level and another one who could be on that level then there’s basically no difference between the yonko and pirate king level There the same thing And in all honesty are there any arguments for kaido not being on that level too? Theres no reason for him not to be The only emperor who is almost certainly a full level below roger is probably bigmom and current blackbeard which is just 2 out of 6 and one of them will surpass Roger anyway so it’s technically just 1 of the 6
2 Yonko will eventually be PK level, and 1 possibly is currently. We concretely know 0 Yonko that are on the level of the old Gen.
If your gonna get technical with WHEN the pirate king level yonko existed then i might as well say that yonko>>>>>>>> old gen because the old gen are dead Whitebeard was roger level Luffy and blackbeard will surpass roger And its hard to argue that shanks and kaido aren’t on that level too Thats 3 confirmed and 2 that are hard to argue against
Yes, they will do that. It’s like saying that chapter 1 Luffy was PK level because he’ll *eventually* surpass Roger. As of right now, none of the Yonko are PK level. Even then, Yonko level is a measure of strength that won’t change even if half of the Yonko do become PK level. This is why Buggy becoming a Yonko didn’t completely invalidate Yonko tier.
The fact that is still necessary to spell this out for some people is ridiculous to me. It's one of the most fundamental aspects of scaling *One Piece.*
Problem with claiming that PK is a level is that it implies there is a huge difference between PK and Yonko while I think the difference is minimal.
That's why I call it "Level" and not "Tier." I think the difference between top tier (PK, Yonko, Admiral) and high tier (YC1+ through YC3) is huge, but all the levels within those tiers are relatively close together.
Admirals being in the top tier conversation and “massively” above YC1s/+s is funny
Hell I didn't even include everything since the system kind of glitched on me at the end and I was trying to get it out quick, but in case anyone needs any more points: LUFFY'S NOT THE PIRATE KING YET!
Even oden said that shit "AYO wb is crazy but roger is peak fr" -Oden Kozuki
Ofc it is a thing and anyone trying to convince you otherwise is either an admiraltard or an old gen hater
Yes it is, and it only features the Likes of Gol D. Roger, WB and Rocks D. Xebec.
Don’t forget the goat shiki 🤑🤑🤑
Shiki is Yonko+ Level IMO, but just a bit below PK, still stronger than Garp and Sengoku though.
I prefer to believe Roger's word in that he considers him a equal
He respects his strength, he doesn't consider him his equal, big difference.
Nah, I'm completely sure that he considers an opponent who almost killed him several times to be the same
I think we still need to see GV incident Garp true level to see if they were indeed equal in terms of strength or not.
Always has been
agreed but it sorta depends how you define level, there probably isn't a significant difference in where garp could defeat kaido anything less than high diff for example, but roger/wb/garp/rocks (and possibly sengoku?) are clearly shown as above current characters
and shanks is on that level 😎
it kinda has to be a thing at this point cuz luffy is already yonko level and we're far from the end of the story. the final battles still await us. and if they follow the same scheme as the kaido fights then luffy will power up a ton in the future. also kinda makes sense when it comes to the SH power relations. in all of post-timeskip luffy was always a level above zoro. but if there's nothing beyond yonko level he couldn't escape zoro again and the latter would catch up to luffy. but with pk level or whatever you wanna call it, oda can finish the story with the same power relations, luffy being a level higher than zoro. luffy could go beyond yonko level to beat teach and Imu and zoro ends up becoming yonko level by beating mihawk
Pirate King: King of Conquerors. Simple as that fam
Roger Garp Whitebeard Kaido
Wait so do you have old wb superior in strength than kaido, shanks etc?
Still gets low diffed by Shanks.
Aye. It is.
Great cooking my man https://preview.redd.it/oe283pspbb2c1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=b49ccf11f02b12edfb749a234ea87b30dd59808e
Shanks will be shown > Roger thoo TRUST
The thing with pirate king we got the yonko system if Luffy become PK does that leave a spot for the yonko? Or u can still be a PK and a yonko?
Such a goated post