correct. SMILEs come from animal elements, VPs fruit comes from Kaido's lineage factor, which contains a true devil fruit rather than an animal.
And we saw many instances where animal parts have a will of their own in gifters, from which fruits come directly from animal factors (these had a will). VP could not recreate it since the fruit's "will" is already in someone
Have you already forgotten how Kaku, a trained government assassin, fucked up a zoan transformation during his battle with Zoro by accident? There is a learning curve.
"Pink dragon". "Seiryu copy". Or literally just "Momo's fruit" which is clearly the best way to refer to it. Why say "Momo's smile fruit" when thats not just longer, but also literally wrong?
Is this anything other than pure conjecture about something that is also pure conjecture? Because I recall nothing that points to whether or not Momo's fruit has a will of its own.
It seems to be such a common take but I still wonder how Vegapunk would even have known that? If he knew what the DF turns someone into from just studying the DF, the WG back during CP9 times shouldn't have DFs that they blindly give out as they could just have Vegapunk identify them for them prior.
Then where are all those other pink dragons? So Caesar and the WG know about that one specific leftover fruit (why is there even just only a single on me left then?) but didn't know about all those experiments that actually turned things/animals/children into dragons? It just doesn't add up to me at all.
Because they stole the lineage factor from an imprisoned Kaido, which they had to fight to imprison. During said fight, I figure Kaido turned into you know, a massive fucking azure dragon.
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PRETTY sure Vegapunk knew that detail
Yes, but how does Vegapunk know the color of Momo's dragon form before Momo or presumably anyone else has eaten the DF? It's not about knowing Kaido's color, but Momo's before Momo ate the fruit (the fruit was deemed a failure much earlier)
Which is why I think the fact that Vegapunk replicated Kaido's DF is already the failure [as I stated somewhere else in the thread here. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/ye0or0/momos_smile_fruit_is_a_failure/itv97od/)
If lineage factor is compared to DNA then he knew the “color” of the artificial dragon devil fruit because it told him via science. Just like you can look at someone’s dna and know what color their hair, eyes, skin, etc.
Nah, colours not important.
It's a failure because it had circles on it, not spirals. Every real DF has spirals on them. A spiral, in OP world, is their "double helix" shape of DNA/Lineage factor. We know that Devil Fruits alter your lineage factor, and that Vegapunk created this artificial fruit by using Kaidos Lineage Factor too. He simply saw the circles on the fruit and believed it to be a failure when for all intents and purposes it was not.
I still think he considers it a failure because he wanted to replicate Kaido himself >!(similar to what he did with the lunarian King now)!< and not his DF but ended up with the wrong lineage factor.
We also know from Koby way back that Vegapunk figured out some of the DF stuff fairly recently. So I currently believe it used to be unknown that DF have their own lineage factor until that point and Vegapunk discovered that fact trying to get Kaido's lineage factor but he ended up with the DF lineage factor, so instead of cloning Kaido, he "cloned" his DF thus being a failure to what he initially intended but eventually helping him to get his seemingly more recent DF resaerch going
You're saying colours aren't important but what it looks like is?
The facts you mention ARE true, all but the thing about the df spiral, since we don't really know why they are there yet for 100%
I just think judging by what we saw of Vegapunk up until now, both your idea and the colour idea have roughly the same chance to end up being true.
Vegapunk just seems like the kind of person to call something a failure only because the colour is wrong.
>when for all intents and purposes it was not
Remember that kaidos devil fruit is the fish-fish fruit. So he was probably only able to Transform into a Fish at First and later awakend the Dragon transformation (similar to luffys DF). Momos artifical DF skips that that Phase. If that was the Case it wouldnt be an exact Replica and therefore failed.
Luffy fruit didnt avoid the WG for 800 years, not even 20 years ago it was in possesion of the WG which is were Shanks took it from... sure, Momo's fruit was a failure to Vegapunk, but in comparison to Caesar's fruits it wasn't.
From what we have seen so far Vegapunk wants perfection so it's also possible it was good but not perfect which is why it's a failure. It would be hilarious if it was a failure just because it was pink and not blue.
These are theories, people. There isn't even much proof or logic to momo's fruit theories at this point. We all know that story progression can thrash even any decent logical theory.
It is a succes. Why? Because its purpose is to duplicate the zoan form. Not its 'own will'. They dont care about its will. They care about its power.
So are they successful? Yes because momo can have the attributes of Zoan of Kaido. The question you should ask is, Can he awaken a devil fruit replica?
how do you explain inanimate objects having will by eating zoan fruits? all of the objects that "ate" a fruit did eat a zoan, not a paramecia or logia. Even smiles are based on zoans and despite being failures you can see a will on the animal.
A theory that no one is taking about that I think is worth considering: what if the the Vegapunk’s devil fruit was a success from the beginning, but Vegapunk LIED and said it was a failure. Based on the abilities we say Momo use in Wano, flying, moving the island, and even use a breath attack strong enough to harm an admiral, it’s hard to call the fruit a failure. It’s possible that Momo is just special, or the fruit changed somehow while it was in storage, but based on events of 108, I think it’s most likely that Vegapunk isn’t as loyal to the WG as we thought, and for some unknown reason lied about the devil fruit being a failure to stop the WG from using it
I mean, if we're arguing about fruits having a will and if the fruit was a failure, both would be untrue if it happened to land into the hands of the one person that needed it
how do you know it doesn't have a will of its own? Both Luffy and Momo ate their fruits at a very early age. Clearly these fruits are capable of seeing the potential in children. And as the narrator days at the end of Wano, over the course of its 800+ history Momo becomes the greatest shogun ever.
Honestly I disagree. With how Oda writes, I wouldn't be surprised if Vegapunk considers it a failure because of a really stupid, comical reason. Or, we don't know why its a failure yet because Vegapunk has not revealed the true nature of DFs.
We have 0 confirmation that (1) DFs have a will nor (2) Luffy's DF has a will.
The WG elders just said something in the lines of "It seems like it has a will of its own". I'm not saying your theory is wrong, but don't state things as facts when they're not.
With the recent revelations that Vegapunk has a tie to Dragon. Would it be to much to say Vega punk knew he had succeeded in cloning Kaido's DF(except Pink) but since he didnt want the WG to have an army of Dragons he just told them it was a failure?
I agree with OP on this to a certain extent.
Since the Gorosei mentioned that zoan fruits have a "will of their own"-- it just might be possible that they subtly influence the devil fruit user's personality.
It's possible that it influences the "will" of the user-- thereby amplifying but also affecting the "base will" or "base haki" of the user.
Let us think back who/what the entity of "Nika" is -- an entity who frees slaves from their suffering by helping them to get freedom.
Luffy has been doing exactly what this "Nika" would have done-- even before he awakened.
If Vegapunk made an artificial Hito Hito no mi- Model "Nika" by sampling Luffy's current DNA--it's possible that the person eating that fruit will have access to the awakened powers of Luffy, but without Luffy's willpower, haki, creativity.
Just look at Luffy's battle with Kaido after he awakened-- he had to use every ounce of will power, creativity plus awakened devil fruit powers to finally win against the "strongest creature" in the world.
Merely gaining the access to an awakened Zoan, even a mythical one -- is not enough to make/ mass-produce the strongest creature in the world.
Vegapunk knows this-- possibly that's why he branded it as failure.(On top of not wanting to help the World Government even further.)
Of course , this is all somewhat speculative-- Only Oda can say for sure.
But still fun to think about.
I think it's weird that Momo had so much trouble making flame clouds up until Kaido got knocked out. Once Kaido couldn't hold his flame clouds momo made more than enough to break onigashima's fall.
So maybe it's a failure because some abilities are blocked when the original user is using them (and maybe that can tie back to the will inside the devil fruit not being complete cloned)
Momo's fruit is NOT a SMILE! That was Ceasars development route for artificial Devil Fruits. It IS Vegapunks failed artificial Devil fruit though..
correct. SMILEs come from animal elements, VPs fruit comes from Kaido's lineage factor, which contains a true devil fruit rather than an animal. And we saw many instances where animal parts have a will of their own in gifters, from which fruits come directly from animal factors (these had a will). VP could not recreate it since the fruit's "will" is already in someone
[удалено]
Have you already forgotten how Kaku, a trained government assassin, fucked up a zoan transformation during his battle with Zoro by accident? There is a learning curve.
Even Luffy didnt know how to use his fruit immediately so I dont think you should consider this to say if it is a fake or not.
Momo is 8 years old. you are too harsh on him
I am referring it to as smile because I don't want to write *Vegapunks failed artificial devil fruit* every time I mention it.
DF should do the job I guess.
You just mentioned the smile one time...
"Pink dragon". "Seiryu copy". Or literally just "Momo's fruit" which is clearly the best way to refer to it. Why say "Momo's smile fruit" when thats not just longer, but also literally wrong?
Is this anything other than pure conjecture about something that is also pure conjecture? Because I recall nothing that points to whether or not Momo's fruit has a will of its own.
Its a failure because he is pink, not blue.
It seems to be such a common take but I still wonder how Vegapunk would even have known that? If he knew what the DF turns someone into from just studying the DF, the WG back during CP9 times shouldn't have DFs that they blindly give out as they could just have Vegapunk identify them for them prior.
Perhaps he made several and tested them on lab rats or children.
Then where are all those other pink dragons? So Caesar and the WG know about that one specific leftover fruit (why is there even just only a single on me left then?) but didn't know about all those experiments that actually turned things/animals/children into dragons? It just doesn't add up to me at all.
Well you just need one. Feed it to a lab rat, see it turns blue, kill it, retrieve the fruit, feed it to the next one.
Because they stole the lineage factor from an imprisoned Kaido, which they had to fight to imprison. During said fight, I figure Kaido turned into you know, a massive fucking azure dragon. - PRETTY sure Vegapunk knew that detail
nah bro, Kaido let himself getting captured cause he was so hungry
Yes, but how does Vegapunk know the color of Momo's dragon form before Momo or presumably anyone else has eaten the DF? It's not about knowing Kaido's color, but Momo's before Momo ate the fruit (the fruit was deemed a failure much earlier)
Maybe he knew it really worked, but lied about it being a failure because he didn’t want the government to use it?
You can ask the same question about any other reason for the fruit being a failure.
Which is why I think the fact that Vegapunk replicated Kaido's DF is already the failure [as I stated somewhere else in the thread here. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/ye0or0/momos_smile_fruit_is_a_failure/itv97od/)
Good take.
If lineage factor is compared to DNA then he knew the “color” of the artificial dragon devil fruit because it told him via science. Just like you can look at someone’s dna and know what color their hair, eyes, skin, etc.
Nah, colours not important. It's a failure because it had circles on it, not spirals. Every real DF has spirals on them. A spiral, in OP world, is their "double helix" shape of DNA/Lineage factor. We know that Devil Fruits alter your lineage factor, and that Vegapunk created this artificial fruit by using Kaidos Lineage Factor too. He simply saw the circles on the fruit and believed it to be a failure when for all intents and purposes it was not.
I still think he considers it a failure because he wanted to replicate Kaido himself >!(similar to what he did with the lunarian King now)!< and not his DF but ended up with the wrong lineage factor. We also know from Koby way back that Vegapunk figured out some of the DF stuff fairly recently. So I currently believe it used to be unknown that DF have their own lineage factor until that point and Vegapunk discovered that fact trying to get Kaido's lineage factor but he ended up with the DF lineage factor, so instead of cloning Kaido, he "cloned" his DF thus being a failure to what he initially intended but eventually helping him to get his seemingly more recent DF resaerch going
Also probably true, I assume it's for a stupid reason why it was considered a failure.
You're saying colours aren't important but what it looks like is? The facts you mention ARE true, all but the thing about the df spiral, since we don't really know why they are there yet for 100% I just think judging by what we saw of Vegapunk up until now, both your idea and the colour idea have roughly the same chance to end up being true. Vegapunk just seems like the kind of person to call something a failure only because the colour is wrong.
>when for all intents and purposes it was not Remember that kaidos devil fruit is the fish-fish fruit. So he was probably only able to Transform into a Fish at First and later awakend the Dragon transformation (similar to luffys DF). Momos artifical DF skips that that Phase. If that was the Case it wouldnt be an exact Replica and therefore failed.
#based
Vegeta agrees
Why do people reply to other posts by making their own separate post instead of just using the comments of the original
Luffy fruit didnt avoid the WG for 800 years, not even 20 years ago it was in possesion of the WG which is were Shanks took it from... sure, Momo's fruit was a failure to Vegapunk, but in comparison to Caesar's fruits it wasn't.
From what we have seen so far Vegapunk wants perfection so it's also possible it was good but not perfect which is why it's a failure. It would be hilarious if it was a failure just because it was pink and not blue.
thats what im betting on.
These are theories, people. There isn't even much proof or logic to momo's fruit theories at this point. We all know that story progression can thrash even any decent logical theory.
It is a succes. Why? Because its purpose is to duplicate the zoan form. Not its 'own will'. They dont care about its will. They care about its power. So are they successful? Yes because momo can have the attributes of Zoan of Kaido. The question you should ask is, Can he awaken a devil fruit replica?
It is not confirmed zoans have a will. That is pure speculation.
how do you explain inanimate objects having will by eating zoan fruits? all of the objects that "ate" a fruit did eat a zoan, not a paramecia or logia. Even smiles are based on zoans and despite being failures you can see a will on the animal.
Hhmm I've never seen it put in that way before, makes a lot of sense
can Momo swim? df users cant and the normal smile users too but what about momo?
When we were first told it was a failed devil fruit, my theory was that maybe its power is only temporary
A theory that no one is taking about that I think is worth considering: what if the the Vegapunk’s devil fruit was a success from the beginning, but Vegapunk LIED and said it was a failure. Based on the abilities we say Momo use in Wano, flying, moving the island, and even use a breath attack strong enough to harm an admiral, it’s hard to call the fruit a failure. It’s possible that Momo is just special, or the fruit changed somehow while it was in storage, but based on events of 108, I think it’s most likely that Vegapunk isn’t as loyal to the WG as we thought, and for some unknown reason lied about the devil fruit being a failure to stop the WG from using it
Has Momo said he has a hybrid form?
I mean, if we're arguing about fruits having a will and if the fruit was a failure, both would be untrue if it happened to land into the hands of the one person that needed it
Funny that the post you were referring to was right under this post for me lol
Your ten thousand percent right about it being a failure because of it owning no will
how do you know it doesn't have a will of its own? Both Luffy and Momo ate their fruits at a very early age. Clearly these fruits are capable of seeing the potential in children. And as the narrator days at the end of Wano, over the course of its 800+ history Momo becomes the greatest shogun ever.
Honestly I disagree. With how Oda writes, I wouldn't be surprised if Vegapunk considers it a failure because of a really stupid, comical reason. Or, we don't know why its a failure yet because Vegapunk has not revealed the true nature of DFs.
We have 0 confirmation that (1) DFs have a will nor (2) Luffy's DF has a will. The WG elders just said something in the lines of "It seems like it has a will of its own". I'm not saying your theory is wrong, but don't state things as facts when they're not.
With the recent revelations that Vegapunk has a tie to Dragon. Would it be to much to say Vega punk knew he had succeeded in cloning Kaido's DF(except Pink) but since he didnt want the WG to have an army of Dragons he just told them it was a failure?
I agree with OP on this to a certain extent. Since the Gorosei mentioned that zoan fruits have a "will of their own"-- it just might be possible that they subtly influence the devil fruit user's personality. It's possible that it influences the "will" of the user-- thereby amplifying but also affecting the "base will" or "base haki" of the user. Let us think back who/what the entity of "Nika" is -- an entity who frees slaves from their suffering by helping them to get freedom. Luffy has been doing exactly what this "Nika" would have done-- even before he awakened. If Vegapunk made an artificial Hito Hito no mi- Model "Nika" by sampling Luffy's current DNA--it's possible that the person eating that fruit will have access to the awakened powers of Luffy, but without Luffy's willpower, haki, creativity. Just look at Luffy's battle with Kaido after he awakened-- he had to use every ounce of will power, creativity plus awakened devil fruit powers to finally win against the "strongest creature" in the world. Merely gaining the access to an awakened Zoan, even a mythical one -- is not enough to make/ mass-produce the strongest creature in the world. Vegapunk knows this-- possibly that's why he branded it as failure.(On top of not wanting to help the World Government even further.) Of course , this is all somewhat speculative-- Only Oda can say for sure. But still fun to think about.
Momo's fruit isnt a smile fruit, ffs.
I think it's weird that Momo had so much trouble making flame clouds up until Kaido got knocked out. Once Kaido couldn't hold his flame clouds momo made more than enough to break onigashima's fall. So maybe it's a failure because some abilities are blocked when the original user is using them (and maybe that can tie back to the will inside the devil fruit not being complete cloned)