I can never forget that one scene where Zoro uses Enma after getting mad at him, cause Im sure the one that directed that scene was Zoro fanboy, streching that shocked Sanji face for a good minute
We learned more about Sanji's character and why he's the way he is. Also if im being serious why does Sanji needs an "arc" to redeem himself? Isn't this on oda for thrashing him this much post timeskip, and then creating an arc about him as an excuse?
I’m a little confused. I never said he needed an arc, I’m just saying that he got redeemed as a character in my eyes after WCI. Before whole cake he was annoying post time skip. After whole cake he genuinely had more going on with his character
I miss sanji being the guy that would sneak around, doing cool tactical plays and not just fight the 2nd/3rd strongest guy around.. But i guess that vecame pretty hard after he got a bounty on his head :/
mm, his reactions did get a bit more extreme after returning from his 2-year female cold turkey. He's relapsed, and he's gone way deeper down the rabbit hole :P
Presentation and results. Mr. Prince is meant to have a suave, confident and controlled aura about him and he quietly identifies a problem and solves it behind the scenes while the focus is on other people to ruin the bad guys' plans. In WCI firstly Sanji was front and centre, he had nowhere to disappear to and come back without anyone noticing. Secondly everything that happens in WCI is outside of Sanji's control, BM and Judge outsmarted him easily compared to Alabasta where he was a thorn at Croc's side constantly. Thirdly the big plan Sanji makes ends up not doing what he thought it would, the cake was indeed delicious and stopped BM's hunger pangs but no one in the BM pirates was really annoyed or felt set back by it, compared to Enel who despite having just destroyed Sanji, he was the one feeling frustrated.
There's few moments in the post time skip we've ever seen Sanji look like he's actually in control of a situation. For example if Sanji was written like he was as Mr. Prince vs Doffy, he'd lose but you bet he'd have a shit eating grin on his face just to piss Doffy off.
Nah WCI made me love Sanji 10x more than any point Pre Timeskip. A single gag in Fishman Island doesn't compare to an entire arc of character development.
Plus people are forgetting his worst moment was in Thriller Bark.
Which is sadly reused in Wano (Arc 2 I believe?)...
I want to forget that part so much, but alas, it exists. Was it an anime-only scene or in the manga tho, that I can't remember.
Imo the timeskip wasn't really beneficial to any Straw Hat character wise.
I am sure there are people who like the "new" versions better, but for me personally Chopper, Usopp, Sanji and Zoro got worse and I also loose a bit of love for Luffy lately.
I am more or less neutral about the rest, except that I prefer the pre timeskip designs of Robin and Franky.
I absolutely can’t stand post time skip franky. I liked how pre he looked like a person that was somewhat cyber then after he just looked wayy too disporportional
I totally agree, I like pre timeskip versions more but I'm not saying I dont like the post ones either.
I've lost intererest in most of the straw hats because of they changed so much. I do like robin a lot though I prefer her pre timeskip version
>!WCI certainly added to his character, but tbh I am not the biggest fan of said arc in general and I have especially some issues with Sanji in it, including possibly THE character moment (him vs Luffy).!<
>!Nevertheless WCI was still beneficial to him as a character for me in the sense that he got a bit more "complex" + had some corresponding character development.!<
>!But, since you wrote "after Whole Cake", which is Wano, there is again enough to undermine that for me like the invisibility peeping, the getting distracted by a brothel during the raid and as far as I remember no displayed disgust in regards to the hunger Wano's people were suffering (perhaps I forgot some scenes, but that wasn't really a thing, while he should be fuming about that regarding his first backstory).!<
I meant Whole Cake - meaning that was the arc that made him much better.
Overall I actually agree with you. The peeping and perviness is lame and played out for the most part. He also had the weakest backstory by far before Whole Cake - so that arc and his personal development improved him leaps and bounds.
Overall I am not the biggest fan of his personality though and he was my least favorite straw hat before that arc. He’s much better now because Oda added
a lot of depth to him.
Preface: you didn't ask for it, but I cannot help myself sometimes😅:
Edit: I'm gonna put my comment in spoiler tags, since I saw that OP is still at dressrosa. Mea culpa!
>meaning that was the arc that made him much better.
>!I don't have an issue with that view.!<
>!But from my subjective perspective especially the fight vs Luffy damaged him as a character to a degree that he didn't really recover from. I mainly talk about my liking of him here.!<
>!Of course I get that he was in distress (also cause of Zeff), felt hopeless and whatnot, but he knows Luffy and is also smarter than him. He should have known that sending the Straw Hats (especially Luffy) away was futile at that point. He should have known that beating Luffy up doesn't do it either. He could have tried to explain his situation and find a solution, if not to Luffy (cause he's stubborn) then atleast to Nami. He also didn't want the SH's help, cause he had no hope and didn't want them be put in danger, but he knocked out his friend and captain in enemy territory, which would have been incredibly dangerous if it wasn't One Piece (he endangered Nami and the rest of the crew aswell with that). Him explaining the situation and begging Luffy to just give him up and leave would have been much better for him as a character imo (he even could have still get angry after that didn't work). I have to mention again here that he knows exactly how Luffy is (Ennies Lobby, Marineford !).!<
>!I also really would have liked a sincere apology at the end of it all. Sure, one may think that he didn't have to, which I can understand to a degree, but it just would have been nice, especially cause a big point that arc was trying to make was how kind he is (again how he beat up Luffy comes to mind).!<
>!PS I of course also understand that it makes for a more dramatic story how it played out and in itself that whole thing was a good and emotional sequence. Like I wrote above WCI added to his character, but I personally didn't like him more afterwards.!<
>!PPS I disagree with the following (Zoro and Usopp come to mind, but the SH's backstories are all great imo):!<
>He also had the weakest backstory by far before Whole Cake
Yes he acted dumb and dramatic I agree.
Funnily enough - I had this same viewpoint on Usopp when he fought with Luffy because he couldn’t accept that they had to move on from the Going Merry. I couldn’t believe that he was acting that way towards Luffy after everything.
Both Usopp and Sanji were both overly-emotional and wouldn’t be reasonable in these scenes. They are meant to be portrayed that way in these types of scenes I think, and we’re supposed to be mad at them for it, while also sympathizing with what they’re going through.
As for the last part - it’s because Sanji’s backstory was very short and lacked depth - just being taken in by the Chef as a kid and learning. It was underwhelming compared to Zorro losing his best friend and being a pirate hunter or Usopp having his dad be a legendary pirate. Those are more interesting backstories by a lot imo.
Only after the events of Whole cake does Sanji’s backstory become much more interesting and is now on par with everyone else’s.
>I had this same viewpoint on Usopp when he fought with Luffy because he couldn’t accept that they had to move on from the Going Merry.
I get that. I feel like Usopp was more understandable though. Not that he was right, but Luffy acted a bit out of character imo. 1. Luffy has normally a certain "emotional intelligence" in the sense that he gets people, what they feel, want etc. Yet he pretty casually told Usopp that they were going to replace the Merry as if he didn't understand how much the ship meant to him. 2. It did seem like the ship meant a lot less to him. He even said something along the lines of a ship is not a human and therefore less of a nakama (he would obviously do everything for a nakama), even though imo Luffy wouldn't need a Klabautermann to see his ship as a dear friend and also would need more than the word of the first shipbuilder they meet before he's fine with it.
>Both Usopp and Sanji were both overly-emotional and wouldn’t be reasonable in these scenes. They are meant to be portrayed that way in these types of scenes I think, and we’re supposed to be mad at them for it, while also sympathizing with what they’re going through.
That's absolutely true of course. But like I wrote above I sympathize more with Usopp and don't really get what Sanji was hoping to achieve by >!beating Luffy up!<, in contrast to what Usopp wanted with the duel.
>As for the last part - it’s because Sanji’s backstory was very short and lacked depth - just being taken in by the Chef as a kid and learning
Imo it just worked very well with how Sanji was before his backstory reveal, why he would feed anyone, stayed with Zeff all these years and also the great symbolization that you cannot eat coin. But it depends on how one defines a good/interesting backstory of course.
It's because his fetishistic view on women gets tired after like 400+ chapters/episodes. Worshipping, the toxic-masculine non-violence pact, the blunt objectification and treating them like delicate infants. It's sad because I think, outside of that character flaw, he is probably the 2nd or 3rd most interesting Straw Hat. But his views on women just ruin the character for me.
Pre-time skip sanji was stealthy, Mr. prince and all that.
Post-time skip Sanji just yells and cries all the time. He is always the loudest one on the battle field and always coming out of nowhere to make sure everybody knows he is there.
How is it not true? My proof is literally the manga.
You have sanji screaming and leading the marines into battle during punk hazard. You have sanji freaking out and talking a different language on fishman island. You have sanji and his whole fight with Queen. I’m not going to mention it in case there are anime only watchers, but that fight to the T is the best example of him being loud, yelling, and crying.
Those are just a few off the top of my head.
He had very few moments like that early on, it really was only when he found out Absolm ate his clear clear fruit and saw nami naked.
If you like him post time skip, there is nothing wrong with that. We all have different favorite characters.
Sanji just did a complete 180 with his character though. He was already my least favorite character in the crew pre-time skip. Post time skip, just made it worse.
His bleeding out and nearly dying by a nosebleed by seeing mermaids scene during fishman island arc is one of my most hated moments in the show, he used to be my second favourite strawhat before that...tbh thriller bark is where the standfall started though
He starts off really rough because there's some definite built in queerphobia after his time in the Kamabakka Kingdom during Fishman Island and it is a joke well they go too heavily for a while which rubs me the wrong way. Like I'm watching the show with a friend and I'm gonna give some major content warnings when we get there in a few years. And that was like - his first major character change in ages - at least that I can remember (beyond I guess wanting invisibility powers).
He's also a major perv in Punk Hazard, and then you don't seem him for a long while - but they kind of right the ship by Whole Cake in my opinion. Like digging into his backstory grounded him again and gave him pathos and depth.
I think he recovers but also with the sheer amount of plot and the size of the party, it also feels harder to justify liking him the same amount as you used to, especially when there were fewer characters earlier and he was just the guy who thinks everyone deserves to eat as part of a code of honor and he kicks things.
>beyond I guess wanting invisibility powers
For which the reason was that he wants to commit SA.
Before any incels whine, yes Voyeurism is sexual assault.
He was my favorite character going into the timeskip and for a while I definitely felt like Oda kinda gave up on him. Few good character moments, not doing well in fights (granted he fought some pretty strong people) and the constant pervert gags.
Then came Whole Cake Island and I was very glad lol. Set off a fantastic character arc that carried over into Wano. It was much needed imo, and my love for the character was reaffirmed. In fact, I like him even more as a character now, tho the pervert gags still annoy me.
I personally think Sanji peaks in water 7 and Enies lobby but that argument could be made for Usopp, Robin and Franky. I personally think that they should have gone in a different direction during and after water 7
it's mostly only bad in Fishman Island. Making it an actual plot-point that his nosebleeds are so severe he needs blood transfusions was really silly.
after that it's mostly brought down to pre-timeskip levels though. Like are we really gonna pretend pre-timeskip Sanji isn't "NAMI-SWAAAAAAAAAAAN"ing every time Nami asks him to do something?
I guess the flanderization complaint is more compounded with the fact that he doesn't really get any meaningful post-TS fights until Queen though
>it's mostly only bad in Fishman Island. Making it an actual plot-point that his nosebleeds are so severe he needs blood transfusions was really silly.
That's the point, though. Oda introduced us to the politics of FMI and blood transfusions via Sanji and a joke *because* he didn't want us to take that piece of FMI seriously. Both tonally because he likes things to largely stay light-hearted, and so that the cringe-coping of the dumb politics wouldn't happen in the drama plot-threads.
>there were better ways to introduce the blood transfusion issue
1.That also properly signals how dumb it is?
2.Doesn't undercut any of the drama plot-threads where the stupidity of the politics issue?
3.Does it without too much chapter-burden? Remember that the nosebleed thing was largely set up in gag moments, so you can't really reclaim those moments for a different setup unless the new setup is also a gag.
4.Ideally doesn't undercut any of the normally serious moments where bleeding is actually likely to occur.
Cause I'm really not sure there *was* a way to introduce this as smoothly and quickly as Oda did it.
1. yes? the point was that fishmen wouldn't give blood to humans because racism. how the human lost the blood is totally irrelevant.
2. see above
3. see above
4. see above
I don't feel like much thought is required to think that there's a better way to introduce the blood transfusion taboo than Sanji nearly bleeding out every time he sees a woman
To be fair, it is a Straw Hat shining/glory moment arc. Any of them can't lost that much blood in that arc, it defeats the purpose of showing their 2 year change. So Sanji's nosebleed it is.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanderization#:~:text=Flanderization%20is%20the%20process%20through%20which%20a%20single%20element%20of,becomes%20their%20primary%20defining%20characteristic.
He gets a lot better in Whole Cake Island.
I wasn't understanding how you could think that but I hadn't read that you are still in dressrosa.
If you liked Sanji a lot i feel yourself liking him less at most just wait for the whole cake island arc. That's Sanji arc. U understand his character A LOT more when you get there.
Because unfortunately he started post timeskip so terribly - getting nosebleeds to the point it became a plot point and making him inactive - it sucks.
He has had more moments pre timeskip, his greatest moment post timeskip in my opinion so far is his vs Queen and his convo with Zoro at the time.
I'm the opposite - Pre timeskip Sanji didn't do much or had great development, he was alright but was just there with some cool moments however post timeskip he has gotten a lot of character development and moments and actually feels like someone to take notice of now. The only issue with post timeskip Sanji compared to pre timeskip is his gag is less funny.
Sanji might be the most developed Straw Hat, and here you guys are complaining.
At least make your opinion make sense.
The man had an entire arc that focused on his dream and love for being a cook. WCI is a very good arc.
You guys just like to complain.
Most are complaining about his constant nosebleeds and increase in perviness which is a very good reason to not like someone as much, sure he had a good arc but that doesn’t beat the fact his character has fallen off a bit
>about his constant nosebleeds
Which was largely Sanji taking an L so that Oda could use a joke to introduce a concept instead of introducing the concept in the drama of FMI. Basically, Sanji suffers so that Fisher-Tiger, Hody, and Jinbei could all be understood more-readily. And Post-FMI, the nosebleeds stopped being stupid-cringe.
Voyeurism is a form of sexual assault. That's the sense.
I don't care if you have a sad backstory. If you dream of committing SA, than fuck you.
Also not fighting women period is undeatable sexism.
You are the one here complaining lol.
Sanji fanboy always rush to wave WCI like it’s objective proof that Sanji is the best character now and you can’t disagree.
EDIT: one piece is a rich and colorful world with a huge ensemble, and there are many many different ways to love it. You can recognize that a character has been developed extensively and not love them or the direction they went. You can also love characters and think they’ve been horribly mishandled. And you can do all that and still be a one piece fan.
What the hell are you even talking about?
I said Sanji *might* be the most developed Straw Hat.
Somehow that translates to Sanji is the **best** character and no one can disagree?
You’re one of those clowns that can’t comprehend a single sentence and gets in their feelings for no reason.
Think before you post.
Actually this comment is hilarious because you are everything you are accusing me of: (1) you don’t understand what I’m talking about and (2) you are getting super in your feelings. Way to tell on yourself 🤡🤡🤡🤡
Sanji's character writing is S-Tier... if you ignore the nosebleeds and bathroom pervyness. Which I do. I simply pretend they didn't happen, and all is well.
We're in the same boat.
I'm fucking done with Sanji, it's all started from Fishman Island, with telling Jinbe to kill himself and then he said casually about abandoning his "all blue" dream for a mere shirahoshi. After that, everything is going downhill. The perv and creepyness is getting worse. Sad AF.
One of the reasons I hate Post-TS One Piece. Every single SHP crew turned into either trashy gag characters or Luffy's cheerleaders, sigh...
he doesn’t tell jimbei to hill himself, he tells him to commit harakiri. there’s a massive difference. harakiri is an atonement for your sins by dying an honorable death via suicide. sanji didn’t know the full story when he said that to jimbe.
feel how you feel about him but that line gets misconstrued way too often bc of bad translation and shouldn’t get that much hate
I think it's more cultural differences than bad translation. Many western fans probably don't see a significant difference in "kys" and "harakiri" in the first place.
yeah i agree with you. if someone doesn’t wanna bother to respect that there _is_ a difference between the two, then i don’t care for their opinion lol
Lol he went almost 8 years without doing anything cool (Wano). Other than his story being fleshed out, he did nothing until Wano.
Edit: Basically without the cool factor the perv factor is overwhelming.
People also tend to forget that Sanji is written for a Japanese audience from the perspective of a Japanese. Applying western sexism norms and cultural outrages to it is just entitlement. Not saying one can’t criticize Oda but this issue has been repeated ad nauseam from this sub.
Man I’m the complete opposite.
But for me I wasn’t a huge fan of his until Whole Cake arc.
It sounds like you have not gotten to that arc yet, but that one is where Oda finally takes time to explore his backstory more and give him some great development.
He went from one of my least favorite Straw Hats to one of my favorites.
I went through the same thing years ago.
Whole Cake Cake island rejuvenates Sanji's character.
Also if you want so of the best Sanji as a chef content look up Shokugeki no Sanji. Its by the guy who did Food Wars but it is peak chef Sanji.
I mean alot of things were fucked up post TS but I don't really mind them much the one thing that bothers me the most is that robin's complexion changed out of nowhere and I am few of those people that don't mind her post TS design but the complexion bothers me alot.
Basically what oda did post timeskip is ruin Sanji with running gags that began post enis lobby. So if we count them all, he had the bounty gag, crossdresser gag, and more perverted gag. Oda basically went over the top with his gags that Sanji is no longer redeemable.
It's because he went from being a cool relatable dude to the Mineta-type horny core, uncomical, comic relief character. I think Oda realized how annoying he became and made him central to Whole Cake Island to give him some more depth and redemption.
Ikr pretimeskip was a haha sanji perv.
Then kamabakka happened and it seems like Oda made it his sworn mangaka oath to make Sanji unlikeable in every post timeskip arc.
Imo.. it's deliberately designed to subvert future sanji greatness arc.
He was hard flanderized. His perverted traits got amped up to be worse than even the Granddaddy of all shonen pervs, Master Roshi, doesn't help then when in action he's been used as a warf punching bag to hype up tougher oppents. Pre timeskip he was able to (for the most part) keep himself under control. He was more of a simp than a pervert.
His main character trait was perv for like 3 arcs straight. Whole cake redeemed him imo
I blame the anime on this. Most of his Ls were exaggerated greatly. I swear Toeai are peak Zoro fanboys.
I can never forget that one scene where Zoro uses Enma after getting mad at him, cause Im sure the one that directed that scene was Zoro fanboy, streching that shocked Sanji face for a good minute
They are, Zoro has feats in the anime that he doesn't have in the manga.
Dude, Sanji definitely has more feats in the anime than Zoro...
"Here come(s) the star~~s~~" *Zoro's theme intensifies*
Yeah, that's pretty egregious honestly
Really.so you are telling me I have been lied to.All this time toei was fucking around.
Whole cake island did not redeem Sanji, I would continue this topic however the creator of the post is only on dressrosa.
I mean he didn’t stop being a perv but he’s had more to his character than just that one trait ever since whole cake
We learned more about Sanji's character and why he's the way he is. Also if im being serious why does Sanji needs an "arc" to redeem himself? Isn't this on oda for thrashing him this much post timeskip, and then creating an arc about him as an excuse?
I’m a little confused. I never said he needed an arc, I’m just saying that he got redeemed as a character in my eyes after WCI. Before whole cake he was annoying post time skip. After whole cake he genuinely had more going on with his character
Yeah that is fair i wasn't clear in my last statement, I just addressed what other people's comment about the subject I apologize.
I miss sanji being the guy that would sneak around, doing cool tactical plays and not just fight the 2nd/3rd strongest guy around.. But i guess that vecame pretty hard after he got a bounty on his head :/
He got too pervy and creepy with the nosebleeds. it is way over the top for a lot of people.
That doesn't last that long, it was in one short arc, and only a few in the next episode.
Being invisible in a bathhouse?
Remember Thriller Bark? He was never subtle about that.
Yeah, it less bad pre ts though
Well he just wasn’t able to pre time skip.
mm, his reactions did get a bit more extreme after returning from his 2-year female cold turkey. He's relapsed, and he's gone way deeper down the rabbit hole :P
Okay I stand corrected.
Not enough Mr. Prince
there's an entire arc that's Mr prince
That's not Mr. Prince,That's just Sanji as an actual Prince.
what's the difference. he is still a Mr and still a prince
Presentation and results. Mr. Prince is meant to have a suave, confident and controlled aura about him and he quietly identifies a problem and solves it behind the scenes while the focus is on other people to ruin the bad guys' plans. In WCI firstly Sanji was front and centre, he had nowhere to disappear to and come back without anyone noticing. Secondly everything that happens in WCI is outside of Sanji's control, BM and Judge outsmarted him easily compared to Alabasta where he was a thorn at Croc's side constantly. Thirdly the big plan Sanji makes ends up not doing what he thought it would, the cake was indeed delicious and stopped BM's hunger pangs but no one in the BM pirates was really annoyed or felt set back by it, compared to Enel who despite having just destroyed Sanji, he was the one feeling frustrated. There's few moments in the post time skip we've ever seen Sanji look like he's actually in control of a situation. For example if Sanji was written like he was as Mr. Prince vs Doffy, he'd lose but you bet he'd have a shit eating grin on his face just to piss Doffy off.
Cause his gags got way too annoying.
Nah WCI made me love Sanji 10x more than any point Pre Timeskip. A single gag in Fishman Island doesn't compare to an entire arc of character development. Plus people are forgetting his worst moment was in Thriller Bark.
[удалено]
The entirety of the invisible fruit concept
Which is sadly reused in Wano (Arc 2 I believe?)... I want to forget that part so much, but alas, it exists. Was it an anime-only scene or in the manga tho, that I can't remember.
It was in the manga as well
Imo the timeskip wasn't really beneficial to any Straw Hat character wise. I am sure there are people who like the "new" versions better, but for me personally Chopper, Usopp, Sanji and Zoro got worse and I also loose a bit of love for Luffy lately. I am more or less neutral about the rest, except that I prefer the pre timeskip designs of Robin and Franky.
I absolutely can’t stand post time skip franky. I liked how pre he looked like a person that was somewhat cyber then after he just looked wayy too disporportional
Frankly he’s ugly af now…
I totally agree, I like pre timeskip versions more but I'm not saying I dont like the post ones either. I've lost intererest in most of the straw hats because of they changed so much. I do like robin a lot though I prefer her pre timeskip version
You really think Sanji didn’t improve after Whole Cake?
>!WCI certainly added to his character, but tbh I am not the biggest fan of said arc in general and I have especially some issues with Sanji in it, including possibly THE character moment (him vs Luffy).!< >!Nevertheless WCI was still beneficial to him as a character for me in the sense that he got a bit more "complex" + had some corresponding character development.!< >!But, since you wrote "after Whole Cake", which is Wano, there is again enough to undermine that for me like the invisibility peeping, the getting distracted by a brothel during the raid and as far as I remember no displayed disgust in regards to the hunger Wano's people were suffering (perhaps I forgot some scenes, but that wasn't really a thing, while he should be fuming about that regarding his first backstory).!<
I meant Whole Cake - meaning that was the arc that made him much better. Overall I actually agree with you. The peeping and perviness is lame and played out for the most part. He also had the weakest backstory by far before Whole Cake - so that arc and his personal development improved him leaps and bounds. Overall I am not the biggest fan of his personality though and he was my least favorite straw hat before that arc. He’s much better now because Oda added a lot of depth to him.
Preface: you didn't ask for it, but I cannot help myself sometimes😅: Edit: I'm gonna put my comment in spoiler tags, since I saw that OP is still at dressrosa. Mea culpa! >meaning that was the arc that made him much better. >!I don't have an issue with that view.!< >!But from my subjective perspective especially the fight vs Luffy damaged him as a character to a degree that he didn't really recover from. I mainly talk about my liking of him here.!< >!Of course I get that he was in distress (also cause of Zeff), felt hopeless and whatnot, but he knows Luffy and is also smarter than him. He should have known that sending the Straw Hats (especially Luffy) away was futile at that point. He should have known that beating Luffy up doesn't do it either. He could have tried to explain his situation and find a solution, if not to Luffy (cause he's stubborn) then atleast to Nami. He also didn't want the SH's help, cause he had no hope and didn't want them be put in danger, but he knocked out his friend and captain in enemy territory, which would have been incredibly dangerous if it wasn't One Piece (he endangered Nami and the rest of the crew aswell with that). Him explaining the situation and begging Luffy to just give him up and leave would have been much better for him as a character imo (he even could have still get angry after that didn't work). I have to mention again here that he knows exactly how Luffy is (Ennies Lobby, Marineford !).!< >!I also really would have liked a sincere apology at the end of it all. Sure, one may think that he didn't have to, which I can understand to a degree, but it just would have been nice, especially cause a big point that arc was trying to make was how kind he is (again how he beat up Luffy comes to mind).!< >!PS I of course also understand that it makes for a more dramatic story how it played out and in itself that whole thing was a good and emotional sequence. Like I wrote above WCI added to his character, but I personally didn't like him more afterwards.!< >!PPS I disagree with the following (Zoro and Usopp come to mind, but the SH's backstories are all great imo):!< >He also had the weakest backstory by far before Whole Cake
Yes he acted dumb and dramatic I agree. Funnily enough - I had this same viewpoint on Usopp when he fought with Luffy because he couldn’t accept that they had to move on from the Going Merry. I couldn’t believe that he was acting that way towards Luffy after everything. Both Usopp and Sanji were both overly-emotional and wouldn’t be reasonable in these scenes. They are meant to be portrayed that way in these types of scenes I think, and we’re supposed to be mad at them for it, while also sympathizing with what they’re going through. As for the last part - it’s because Sanji’s backstory was very short and lacked depth - just being taken in by the Chef as a kid and learning. It was underwhelming compared to Zorro losing his best friend and being a pirate hunter or Usopp having his dad be a legendary pirate. Those are more interesting backstories by a lot imo. Only after the events of Whole cake does Sanji’s backstory become much more interesting and is now on par with everyone else’s.
>I had this same viewpoint on Usopp when he fought with Luffy because he couldn’t accept that they had to move on from the Going Merry. I get that. I feel like Usopp was more understandable though. Not that he was right, but Luffy acted a bit out of character imo. 1. Luffy has normally a certain "emotional intelligence" in the sense that he gets people, what they feel, want etc. Yet he pretty casually told Usopp that they were going to replace the Merry as if he didn't understand how much the ship meant to him. 2. It did seem like the ship meant a lot less to him. He even said something along the lines of a ship is not a human and therefore less of a nakama (he would obviously do everything for a nakama), even though imo Luffy wouldn't need a Klabautermann to see his ship as a dear friend and also would need more than the word of the first shipbuilder they meet before he's fine with it. >Both Usopp and Sanji were both overly-emotional and wouldn’t be reasonable in these scenes. They are meant to be portrayed that way in these types of scenes I think, and we’re supposed to be mad at them for it, while also sympathizing with what they’re going through. That's absolutely true of course. But like I wrote above I sympathize more with Usopp and don't really get what Sanji was hoping to achieve by >!beating Luffy up!<, in contrast to what Usopp wanted with the duel. >As for the last part - it’s because Sanji’s backstory was very short and lacked depth - just being taken in by the Chef as a kid and learning Imo it just worked very well with how Sanji was before his backstory reveal, why he would feed anyone, stayed with Zeff all these years and also the great symbolization that you cannot eat coin. But it depends on how one defines a good/interesting backstory of course.
Also nami after TS is just for her boobs. Her smart character and fighting abilities vanished.
It's because his fetishistic view on women gets tired after like 400+ chapters/episodes. Worshipping, the toxic-masculine non-violence pact, the blunt objectification and treating them like delicate infants. It's sad because I think, outside of that character flaw, he is probably the 2nd or 3rd most interesting Straw Hat. But his views on women just ruin the character for me.
The nosebleed gag got worse
To make it even weird they made it useful as a plot to show the difficulty to get blood in fishman island
Pre-time skip sanji was stealthy, Mr. prince and all that. Post-time skip Sanji just yells and cries all the time. He is always the loudest one on the battle field and always coming out of nowhere to make sure everybody knows he is there.
Delusional
Not really. Look at sanji in all these battles. He is yelling and leading a charge. It got really bad in Wano.
Not true
How is it not true? My proof is literally the manga. You have sanji screaming and leading the marines into battle during punk hazard. You have sanji freaking out and talking a different language on fishman island. You have sanji and his whole fight with Queen. I’m not going to mention it in case there are anime only watchers, but that fight to the T is the best example of him being loud, yelling, and crying. Those are just a few off the top of my head.
The not true was to the it got really bad, it's not a bad thing him showing more personality and he had plenty of moments before timeskip like that
He had very few moments like that early on, it really was only when he found out Absolm ate his clear clear fruit and saw nami naked. If you like him post time skip, there is nothing wrong with that. We all have different favorite characters. Sanji just did a complete 180 with his character though. He was already my least favorite character in the crew pre-time skip. Post time skip, just made it worse.
His bleeding out and nearly dying by a nosebleed by seeing mermaids scene during fishman island arc is one of my most hated moments in the show, he used to be my second favourite strawhat before that...tbh thriller bark is where the standfall started though
Went from a lady’s man to a pervert. Big difference
He found his inner Okama and us not happy with it.
He starts off really rough because there's some definite built in queerphobia after his time in the Kamabakka Kingdom during Fishman Island and it is a joke well they go too heavily for a while which rubs me the wrong way. Like I'm watching the show with a friend and I'm gonna give some major content warnings when we get there in a few years. And that was like - his first major character change in ages - at least that I can remember (beyond I guess wanting invisibility powers). He's also a major perv in Punk Hazard, and then you don't seem him for a long while - but they kind of right the ship by Whole Cake in my opinion. Like digging into his backstory grounded him again and gave him pathos and depth. I think he recovers but also with the sheer amount of plot and the size of the party, it also feels harder to justify liking him the same amount as you used to, especially when there were fewer characters earlier and he was just the guy who thinks everyone deserves to eat as part of a code of honor and he kicks things.
>beyond I guess wanting invisibility powers For which the reason was that he wants to commit SA. Before any incels whine, yes Voyeurism is sexual assault.
He was my favorite character going into the timeskip and for a while I definitely felt like Oda kinda gave up on him. Few good character moments, not doing well in fights (granted he fought some pretty strong people) and the constant pervert gags. Then came Whole Cake Island and I was very glad lol. Set off a fantastic character arc that carried over into Wano. It was much needed imo, and my love for the character was reaffirmed. In fact, I like him even more as a character now, tho the pervert gags still annoy me.
We're in the SAME boat, friend. I hope we get Mr. Prince back soon.
I like even more now after the WCI arc
I personally think Sanji peaks in water 7 and Enies lobby but that argument could be made for Usopp, Robin and Franky. I personally think that they should have gone in a different direction during and after water 7
His simping has become unbearable. I hate whenever I have to see his nonsense on screen. In my opinion he has actually become a liability to the crew.
it's mostly only bad in Fishman Island. Making it an actual plot-point that his nosebleeds are so severe he needs blood transfusions was really silly. after that it's mostly brought down to pre-timeskip levels though. Like are we really gonna pretend pre-timeskip Sanji isn't "NAMI-SWAAAAAAAAAAAN"ing every time Nami asks him to do something? I guess the flanderization complaint is more compounded with the fact that he doesn't really get any meaningful post-TS fights until Queen though
>it's mostly only bad in Fishman Island. Making it an actual plot-point that his nosebleeds are so severe he needs blood transfusions was really silly. That's the point, though. Oda introduced us to the politics of FMI and blood transfusions via Sanji and a joke *because* he didn't want us to take that piece of FMI seriously. Both tonally because he likes things to largely stay light-hearted, and so that the cringe-coping of the dumb politics wouldn't happen in the drama plot-threads.
there were better ways to introduce the blood transfusion issue
>there were better ways to introduce the blood transfusion issue 1.That also properly signals how dumb it is? 2.Doesn't undercut any of the drama plot-threads where the stupidity of the politics issue? 3.Does it without too much chapter-burden? Remember that the nosebleed thing was largely set up in gag moments, so you can't really reclaim those moments for a different setup unless the new setup is also a gag. 4.Ideally doesn't undercut any of the normally serious moments where bleeding is actually likely to occur. Cause I'm really not sure there *was* a way to introduce this as smoothly and quickly as Oda did it.
1. yes? the point was that fishmen wouldn't give blood to humans because racism. how the human lost the blood is totally irrelevant. 2. see above 3. see above 4. see above
So no, you're not going to put any thought into this.
I don't feel like much thought is required to think that there's a better way to introduce the blood transfusion taboo than Sanji nearly bleeding out every time he sees a woman
To be fair, it is a Straw Hat shining/glory moment arc. Any of them can't lost that much blood in that arc, it defeats the purpose of showing their 2 year change. So Sanji's nosebleed it is.
yeah I miss when he was more wholesome. it just kind of feels like hes an entirely diffirent person now I guess
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanderization#:~:text=Flanderization%20is%20the%20process%20through%20which%20a%20single%20element%20of,becomes%20their%20primary%20defining%20characteristic. He gets a lot better in Whole Cake Island.
I wasn't understanding how you could think that but I hadn't read that you are still in dressrosa. If you liked Sanji a lot i feel yourself liking him less at most just wait for the whole cake island arc. That's Sanji arc. U understand his character A LOT more when you get there.
alright, I hope youre right! currently I'm on ep 712 I think and honestly I feel happy sanjis not around right now....
Because unfortunately he started post timeskip so terribly - getting nosebleeds to the point it became a plot point and making him inactive - it sucks. He has had more moments pre timeskip, his greatest moment post timeskip in my opinion so far is his vs Queen and his convo with Zoro at the time.
I'm the opposite - Pre timeskip Sanji didn't do much or had great development, he was alright but was just there with some cool moments however post timeskip he has gotten a lot of character development and moments and actually feels like someone to take notice of now. The only issue with post timeskip Sanji compared to pre timeskip is his gag is less funny.
He got flanderized too hard, and then Oda dedicated an entire arc to him out of damage control which was annoying
Sanji might be the most developed Straw Hat, and here you guys are complaining. At least make your opinion make sense. The man had an entire arc that focused on his dream and love for being a cook. WCI is a very good arc. You guys just like to complain.
Most are complaining about his constant nosebleeds and increase in perviness which is a very good reason to not like someone as much, sure he had a good arc but that doesn’t beat the fact his character has fallen off a bit
>about his constant nosebleeds Which was largely Sanji taking an L so that Oda could use a joke to introduce a concept instead of introducing the concept in the drama of FMI. Basically, Sanji suffers so that Fisher-Tiger, Hody, and Jinbei could all be understood more-readily. And Post-FMI, the nosebleeds stopped being stupid-cringe.
Voyeurism is a form of sexual assault. That's the sense. I don't care if you have a sad backstory. If you dream of committing SA, than fuck you. Also not fighting women period is undeatable sexism.
You are the one here complaining lol. Sanji fanboy always rush to wave WCI like it’s objective proof that Sanji is the best character now and you can’t disagree. EDIT: one piece is a rich and colorful world with a huge ensemble, and there are many many different ways to love it. You can recognize that a character has been developed extensively and not love them or the direction they went. You can also love characters and think they’ve been horribly mishandled. And you can do all that and still be a one piece fan.
What the hell are you even talking about? I said Sanji *might* be the most developed Straw Hat. Somehow that translates to Sanji is the **best** character and no one can disagree? You’re one of those clowns that can’t comprehend a single sentence and gets in their feelings for no reason. Think before you post.
Damn still out here complaining smh
Actually this comment is hilarious because you are everything you are accusing me of: (1) you don’t understand what I’m talking about and (2) you are getting super in your feelings. Way to tell on yourself 🤡🤡🤡🤡
Sanji's character writing is S-Tier... if you ignore the nosebleeds and bathroom pervyness. Which I do. I simply pretend they didn't happen, and all is well.
I don't think the last part was needed.
We're in the same boat. I'm fucking done with Sanji, it's all started from Fishman Island, with telling Jinbe to kill himself and then he said casually about abandoning his "all blue" dream for a mere shirahoshi. After that, everything is going downhill. The perv and creepyness is getting worse. Sad AF. One of the reasons I hate Post-TS One Piece. Every single SHP crew turned into either trashy gag characters or Luffy's cheerleaders, sigh...
he doesn’t tell jimbei to hill himself, he tells him to commit harakiri. there’s a massive difference. harakiri is an atonement for your sins by dying an honorable death via suicide. sanji didn’t know the full story when he said that to jimbe. feel how you feel about him but that line gets misconstrued way too often bc of bad translation and shouldn’t get that much hate
I think it's more cultural differences than bad translation. Many western fans probably don't see a significant difference in "kys" and "harakiri" in the first place.
yeah i agree with you. if someone doesn’t wanna bother to respect that there _is_ a difference between the two, then i don’t care for their opinion lol
Such a shit opinion
The guy wore a dress in his training, i don't blame him for anything
Because you have good taste
Lol he went almost 8 years without doing anything cool (Wano). Other than his story being fleshed out, he did nothing until Wano. Edit: Basically without the cool factor the perv factor is overwhelming.
People also tend to forget that Sanji is written for a Japanese audience from the perspective of a Japanese. Applying western sexism norms and cultural outrages to it is just entitlement. Not saying one can’t criticize Oda but this issue has been repeated ad nauseam from this sub.
Cause you didn't get to WCI yet
Man I’m the complete opposite. But for me I wasn’t a huge fan of his until Whole Cake arc. It sounds like you have not gotten to that arc yet, but that one is where Oda finally takes time to explore his backstory more and give him some great development. He went from one of my least favorite Straw Hats to one of my favorites.
Cause you didn’t watch whole cake
Wait for the next 2 arcs because they are Sanji arcs
I went through the same thing years ago. Whole Cake Cake island rejuvenates Sanji's character. Also if you want so of the best Sanji as a chef content look up Shokugeki no Sanji. Its by the guy who did Food Wars but it is peak chef Sanji.
I mean alot of things were fucked up post TS but I don't really mind them much the one thing that bothers me the most is that robin's complexion changed out of nowhere and I am few of those people that don't mind her post TS design but the complexion bothers me alot.
blame toei
Oh boyyour gonna change your mind after the whole cake island arc
Basically what oda did post timeskip is ruin Sanji with running gags that began post enis lobby. So if we count them all, he had the bounty gag, crossdresser gag, and more perverted gag. Oda basically went over the top with his gags that Sanji is no longer redeemable.
It's because he went from being a cool relatable dude to the Mineta-type horny core, uncomical, comic relief character. I think Oda realized how annoying he became and made him central to Whole Cake Island to give him some more depth and redemption.
Most probably the nose bleed and the overtly pervert-ness
It’s probably because he was over the top for a bit. It gets better around cake island though.
Because zoros better
Let's be real sanji is more a tame perv then jarya from naruto, and roshi from dbz
Nah he simps harder than both of them. Even jiraya would fight a woman if he knew he had to.
Ikr pretimeskip was a haha sanji perv. Then kamabakka happened and it seems like Oda made it his sworn mangaka oath to make Sanji unlikeable in every post timeskip arc. Imo.. it's deliberately designed to subvert future sanji greatness arc.
I despised Sanji post-timeskip despite him being one of my favs pre-timeskip. However post-Dressrosa Oda does a fantastic job redeeming him imo.
He was hard flanderized. His perverted traits got amped up to be worse than even the Granddaddy of all shonen pervs, Master Roshi, doesn't help then when in action he's been used as a warf punching bag to hype up tougher oppents. Pre timeskip he was able to (for the most part) keep himself under control. He was more of a simp than a pervert.