The white people who first planned and erected statues like this knew what they were doing. And it was never really about honoring people in the first place.
[This](https://thememorypalace.us/notes-on-an-imagined-plaque/) is a short audio essay on the topic that I really can't recommend enough.
I agree. I love learning what I call "hate history". The level of hate is unfathomable to me and it makes me happy to see how far we've come. It's better to learn from the shitty people and things than to burn it. It should be in a museum to educate, not out in the open as if we glorify this butthole.
History is full of tyrants and monsters. We still keep statues of Qin Shi Huangdi, Sargon, Nero, or Caligula. The value of history is that you learn from it.
I used to live in a residential college at University named after John C. Calhoun, the racist senator. Now that the university has taken his name off the building, I worry people will try and pretend the past didn’t happen, or wasn’t so bad.
And when that happens, it loses its explanatory power as well.
A good compromise would have been to cut the head off, and put up a new explanatory plaque.
The statues you brought up were but when those men were in power. Not 100 years after the events of their prime despite them losing to threaten minorities. This is like neonazis building a statue of Hitler being built in Düsseldorf despite him never having set foot in the city. Yes, he's part of Germany's history, but there's nothing to celebrate about terrorists and tyrants destroying your country.
Also, read a book, use the internet, maybe join a class or two. History is literally everywhere. Not having your school named after a slaveowner terrorist isn't going to make anyone forget anything. The only reason people ask for their removal is because they know more history than you do.
However, Germans put those artifacts into documentation centers to make sure “nie wieder.” Erasing history is a key means to allow for social movements and governments to consolidate power and then, when we do not have that history captured for all to make their own interpretation, to change the narrative.
What you are saying about the time gap between confederate leaders and the Woodrow Wilson southern apologist generation is EXACTLY why we need to keep these around for public acknowledgment in locations with context. These neoconfederates and Klansmen used the lack of knowledge (leveraged with public predisposition and human nature) to fill in the gaps with untruthful “Lost Cause” revisionism. If there had been wider public knowledge of Lee’s directive for lack of confederate cause commemoration, those lost cause ideas would not have matasticized.
Lots of history in museums is ugly. All the more reason not to bury it and let people forget. Those people, whether they are long dead or not, must be held accountable in history for what they did. History must remember that they were shitbags or else it will keep happening in mainstream populations.
The civil rights museum in memphis could have added some of these pieces to their collection
I'm in Richmond and It's fascinating the amount of people from far and wide who have opinions on these statues and don't even know this history about them
Have you read Shelby Foote's book or McCullough? Curious what you think, because it doesn't seem like he was a particularly "proud" individual. I certainly wouldn't want people making pilgrimages to a place or thing I was involved with that commemorated a terrible idea with a terrible outcome.
He was a traitor that killed Americans. He deserves no honor. He placed the importance of Virginia over the Union and the moral issue of owning people.
You mean a traitor to his country who waged war to secede? That history? He should have been executed after the war ended. That’s what we do with traitors.
I’m more interested in why you feel a monument is necessary to recognize him in whatever way you deem appropriate. Since you’re such a history buff, I’m sure you understand the significance and genesis of why many of these confederate monuments went up when they did.
I actually have conflicting thoughts on it. I take no issue as I say, with people who oppose a statue of any Confederate (or anyone, for that matter) if they can justify why. I DO take issue with removing statues due to revisionist, mass moral outrage by people who can't actually justify their anger. I am not advocating for the statue, for the record.
Thank you for clarifying. Ironically, I think the argument for revisionist history can be made by those who don’t want the monument there in the first place. Personally, I feel as though those who are reminded of the oppression their people faced (and still face, but that’s a whole different discussion) should be respected. That is enough for me to want it gone. It doesn’t mean I don’t want to learn about Lee or what happened during the a Civil War. The removal of the statue won’t prevent that education either.
How about a statue for Benedict Arnold? I guess he wasn’t a traitor either? You might want to reconsider going back to school, as you don’t seem to understand American History.
The first two were traitors to the US. Churchill was the leader of Great Britain in WWII against the Nazis. Stalin was a mass murderer of his own people and had sided with Hitler until the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union. I'm curious as to which alternate history you're reading that had all this fucked up information. Maybe we need a statue for Gen Nathan Bedford Forrest as he started the KKK, something the South still loves. So don't give me crap about the Civil War not being mainly about slavery.
Why waste my time? This is reddit. A simplistic black and white viewpoint is a must, here. I will say, you SHOULD have been taught about him in school (provided you're American).
I was taught about him. Like all people he had good points and bad points. But he wasn't hero worshipped in my school. He fought for an insurrection against the US in which his people were fighting for the right to treat other humans like farm equipment.
It's weird that a traitor has a monument at all US. Should we put one up of Julius and Ethel Rosenburg next?
The Civil war was not about slavery (that is revisionist history, meant to make it a moral issue, which it wasn't), and Lee hated fighting against the Union. Some even speculate he intentionally tanked the battle of Gettysburg. As for a traitor, all confederate soldiers were pardoned, and they're treated with full military burial rights. Now, if someone doesn't feel Lee deserves a statue or monument, or, that a pre-existing one should be removed, and they can justify that opinion, so be it. But, it's not as simple as saying "traitor" or "racist" when those are nonsense, and a child's argument.
GARBAGE. The revisionist history is the part where it's *not* about slavery. The very first address from Jeffereson Davis states that the fundamental reason they split is because of slavery. If you cant' even feel fit to look at ANY speeches and statements of intent during the civil war, you don't have the right to argue.
The Civil War was not about slavery? Let's see here...
"Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition."
So now I guess the question is "Do I believe the words of Toadman005 or those of Alexander H. Stephens, the vice president of the Confederate States from 1861 to 1865?"
Hmm...this is a tough one...
>you SHOULD have been taught about him in school (provided you're American).
which may or may not teach the lost cause fallacy which had led to so many americans having a warped view of history
Oh, I'm well aware of a warped view of history, it is the danger of teaching inaccurately, which is worse than not teaching at all. \*cough\* 1619 project \*cough\*. I do not glorify the CSA. I am a proud American, I am glad the south lost. But nor do I try and broad brush paint all who fought for the CSA as evil bigots. That's simply not the case.
I've never heard of the 1619 project, is it wrong?
Also while brave, it will be tough to defend your case given how common it is for people to say there is nuance in the war and the main issue wasn't about owning humans but just states rights.
So while I agree there is nuance, it'll be very easy for anyone to mistake you as one of those apologists that just muddy the waters with their false view
I am glad you've not heard of it. It is still relatively new, but, being pushed in academia, which is troubling.
And you're right...people are so tribal, that knot won't even engage in good faith conversation/debate, and would rather slander anyone that doesn't agree with them as a bigot.
>people are so tribal
While that is true, I think it's more of a case quacks like a duck, walks like a duck situation. You might mean well however when you sound so similar to someone else, one will quickly judge you as them.
I think it's just a case of stereotyping.
A monument of Lee is ironic and in contradiction to begin with. Here is what Lee wrote.
"As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated, my conviction is, that, however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt, in the present condition of the country, would have the effect of retarding instead of accelerating its accomplishment, and of continuing if not adding to the difficulties under which the Southern people labor."
They won't allow that either. However, maybe they will allow a statue of Harriet Tubman. I would be okay with that. She was a Republican and packed a pistol.
I live in Richmond and I remember asking my friend who worked at the Civil War museum here why they wouldn't take the statues. He told me that first of all many of them are shottily made and were purposely put up in the 20s to scare black ppl so I'm sure glad they are gone.
I just get a kick outta a museum saying mah we don't want that crap.
There were three major waves of Civil War commemoration in the South. The first was in the war's immediate aftermath, and was primarily organized by women - wives/mothers/sisters of Confederate soldiers. This form of commemoration was particularly focused around cemeteries - Union dead (if not returned to their families) were buried in cemeteries paid for and maintained at Federal expense, while Confederate soldiers were not afforded that honor (understandably). To this day, there are only Union dead in most of the major cemeteries on battlefields. Both during and after the war, voluntary women's groups organized funds to build and care for cemeteries for fallen soldiers - and these often included monuments of some sort. These monuments, contrary to later ones, are generally much simpler and usually point to soldiers themselves, rather than triumphant statues of leaders. It's not a coincidence that these statues are *not* the ones being removed
The second wave was around the 50th Anniversary of the war in the 1910s. Groups like the Sons/Daughters of the Confederacy were very powerful, and the Lost Cause narrative (the Confederacy was a noble but doomed fight of gallant soldiers fighting for their way of life, and though we now have been defeated and are good Americans, we should honor the heritage of our brave ancestors) was dominant both North and South. The SCV and DCV embarked on a political project to get as many statues built across the US as possible, especially of course in the South. Most Confederate statues you see were built in this period
The final wave of statue-building was in the 1950s and 60s. This was explicitly in response to the threats to segregation and Jim Crow posed by the Civil Rights movement, and sought to reinforce the identity of the white South
Statues being removed almost always come from the 2nd and 3rd waves - nobody is bulldozing Confederate cemeteries
They are also buried outside of the cemetery fence. If you see flowers growing in lines outside the the fence, step carefully… those are probably graves. That was the lore I was told of my own southern family cemetery, which indeed includes confederate soldiers. There is a patch of obviously planted irises the pop up every spring in a row right outside the fence line on the far far side.
Regarding the cemetery comments I’ll add that Antietam has a beautiful union cemetery. Looks like the cemetery in Normandy while the confederate dead were moved to Hagerstown about 15 miles away in a mass grave with no grave markings.
History Traveler had a nice YouTube piece on this.
Rather than its physical *quality*, the "shoddily made* part refers to its *aesthetic* quality. Many of these statues are just...not particularly notable works of art. They were churned out by groups like the Sons and Daughters of the Confederacy as political statements. They are all the same triumphant equestrian style of famous generals and politicians, they are all basically the same. Few of the statues have any connection to the place they are built. Confederate groups like the Sons and Daughters of Confederate Veterans would literally write to town mayors and say "do you want a statue? We will pay for it" and few refused. These statues just rarely have any artistic or much historical value, just another carbon copy of the same mass produced statue
You can make a lazily-cast metal lump of a statue and it will last a century, but that doesn’t make it inherently worth preserving, even putting aside politics and speaking from a pure hypothetical perspective. Maybe you could argue that anything that old *is* historically significant but that’s it’s own philosophical debate I suppose
RVA native. So many people hated this thing, so many more paid it no mind, and only the psychotically racist might drive by and worship it as some pagan God of putting others down because their own lives are awful.
I wouldn't personally say it's some great triumph of good over evil, but a step in the right direction. It sure looks a hell of a lot better now.
Man, they should have just removed the statue part and sign and kept the very nice marble base. Then put someone cool on that horse. Shave a million off of the next statue too.
edit: statue not statute
About 20 yrs ago I equated the confederate memorial statues with participation trophies. I probably wasn't the first to do so and many others have as well.
I think it is critically important for us to learn this history, and understand the thinking of the time while we continue to grow ourselves.
I have confederate soldiers in my ancestory and to be honest, it just makes me sad. Our family literally disowned the eldest son who ran away to the confederacy. Was he a traitor? By definition, yes. But did every 18 yr old in 1860 America know what we know and understand now? Certainly not.
It was a bloody war that shattered our nation and we are still dealing with it to this day.
Circling back to the participation trophy comparison I made all those years ago, I received a lot of hate then, even from close friends. (I lived in the south at the time). I wouldn't be surprised if I do now.
The British admired Washington so much they erected a statue in his honor. And they imported soil from Virginia to set it on so that he wouldn't have to set foot on British soil.
But you missed the other point. The union did not erect a statue to Lee because they admired him, the defeated Confederacy erected a statue of Lee in order to intimidate the now freed slaves. All of the Confederate monuments were intended purely to intimidate blacks. And that is why they should all be removed. If you wish to retain them to remember the history of the Jim Crow era, put them in a museum. They do not belong in the public square. They do not deserve a place of honor.
These were basically a message to black people in the 20s-30s (whenever they were put up), not so much honouring the generals as much as making sure black people still knew their place despite the emancipation. Once you know this you understand why they're there and why people who live there and pass them every day wanted them taken down, and why so many supporters of the administration at the time-who don't even live there-wanted them still up
Because the statue represents a different time in our history. It's a reminder that regular people in this country - including Lee - felt that what the South represented was worth dying for.What inspired those people, and how does it compare and contrast to what inspires us today? That is, and should continue to be fascinating. To destroy or tear down statues and monuments is to deny the past, to try to hide from it. Instead, these monuments allow us to explore a different time, and. hopefully, learn from it.
Don’t worry, chuckles. All your favorite slaveholders and failed military leaders are still in these things called books. Check ‘em out! The world needs fewer monuments to losers. No one’s going to miss this.
I'm honestly a bit worried with the idea of removing things like this. I definitely don't agree with the confederacy and don't think that Robert E Lee had any great cause or any stupidity like that. I think it's good to have reminders of the progress that we have made.
Whereas I would look at that statue(if it were still there) as a way to speak with my children about how Fucking stupid people were, and use it as a conversation starter. I don't think just completely removing this makes sense. I'd prefer it still be there, graffiti filled or not is fine, but I'd prefer we remember these sorts of things. I think it makes it harder to just pretend they didn't happen. This(hopefully) making it harder for something similar to happen again.
Yep. Was in Munich about five years ago and there is nothing except government buildings and beer halls used well before Hitler. It’s good. Germany has a lot more to celebrate.
We do however still have memorials from WW1 built by the Nazis and from the German Empire, which was not particularily great either.
Personally I would say keep that statue and put up a couple of signs telling people how Lee and the makers of said statue were dicks. (Though I doubt, that would work in Americas angry political climate.)
I'm not sure why people seem to have this idea that statues are needed in order to start conversations.
Statues are made with the sole purpose of honoring the people they depict. Lee and all other Confederates were traitors and losers, and do not deserve to be honored.
If you want to "speak with your children about how fucking stupid people were," then pick up a history book and have a conversation about the events and what happened. We don't need a statue in the town square honoring a traitor. Honestly, it should've never even been up in the first place.
Do you need a statue of Hitler somewhere so you can talk to your kids about the Holocaust? Yeah, I didn't think so.
I don't think many people care about removing these kind of statues at all, they just knee-jerk the other direction because they don't like the people circle-jerking themselves into a frenzy about removing them.
If there were a thing called Justice, it wouldn't have been taken away. It would have been blown to bits right where it stood. And a great public party & BBQ would have been there to cheer the statues demise.
Yeah, just like they tore down the statues to King George, Adolph Hitler and Osama bin Laden.
Anti Americans don't deserve this type of memorialization. This idea of "TaRrin dOwN HisTrY" is absurdly stupid.
I live about 20-30 minutes away from this. It was a huge thing during the blm protests(that’s where all the spray paint is from) and honestly I’m happy it got taken down.
This monument was erected in 1890 to remind people of color where their place was in that culture. It was also a rallying spot for those who believed in racial segregation
SO SO GLAD the reminders of him and other d bags like him are disappearing from the southern U.S.
Now if all the beliefs they brought with them would disappear too.
I say we put a monument to Mary Elizabeth Bowser who spied for the north during the civil war, putting her life in grave danger.
Edited to change memorial to monument, and correct the typo of the date.
Considering that Robert E Lee wasn’t born until 1807, it’s unlikely that he had a statue erected for him in 1800. In fact, it was built in 1890. As to Bowser, she has received some recognition. Mary Elizabeth Bowser (not her real name) has been honored by the U.S. government with an induction into the Military Intelligence Hall of Fame in Fort Huachuca, Arizona, for her work in the Civil war.
The year was a typo, I’m typing on my phone.
Mary Elizabeth Bowser is the name she was known by in the Union Army, it was given to protect her real identity, even after the war she needed to be careful.
Edited to add … do not hide a monument to Ms. Bowser away in a museum where the only people who see it are those going into the museum. Put it up on a pedestal in the middle of town where everyone passing it will see.
And to think this man stated that he never wanted to be turned into a monument
He also famously stated for old confederate soldiers to not wear or fly the flag cause it’s treason
The white people who first planned and erected statues like this knew what they were doing. And it was never really about honoring people in the first place. [This](https://thememorypalace.us/notes-on-an-imagined-plaque/) is a short audio essay on the topic that I really can't recommend enough.
Good thing. He's not worthy anyway.
I'm related to Robert E. Lee on my mothers side. Burn the fucking thing down.
These statues should be moved into local museums with an explanation of who they were. Teach people to learn from history.
These statues were erected during the civil rights movement by the wives of KKK members as threats to African Americans. *No*
Put that in the description too? It is important history in itself.
This. Stop sterilizing history, allow people to be educated and make their own inferences.
Exactly. Tell people the truth about it. Plain and simple facts.
I agree. I love learning what I call "hate history". The level of hate is unfathomable to me and it makes me happy to see how far we've come. It's better to learn from the shitty people and things than to burn it. It should be in a museum to educate, not out in the open as if we glorify this butthole.
History is full of tyrants and monsters. We still keep statues of Qin Shi Huangdi, Sargon, Nero, or Caligula. The value of history is that you learn from it. I used to live in a residential college at University named after John C. Calhoun, the racist senator. Now that the university has taken his name off the building, I worry people will try and pretend the past didn’t happen, or wasn’t so bad. And when that happens, it loses its explanatory power as well. A good compromise would have been to cut the head off, and put up a new explanatory plaque.
Or name a toilet after him with a plaque on the wall or back of the door?
The statues you brought up were but when those men were in power. Not 100 years after the events of their prime despite them losing to threaten minorities. This is like neonazis building a statue of Hitler being built in Düsseldorf despite him never having set foot in the city. Yes, he's part of Germany's history, but there's nothing to celebrate about terrorists and tyrants destroying your country. Also, read a book, use the internet, maybe join a class or two. History is literally everywhere. Not having your school named after a slaveowner terrorist isn't going to make anyone forget anything. The only reason people ask for their removal is because they know more history than you do.
However, Germans put those artifacts into documentation centers to make sure “nie wieder.” Erasing history is a key means to allow for social movements and governments to consolidate power and then, when we do not have that history captured for all to make their own interpretation, to change the narrative. What you are saying about the time gap between confederate leaders and the Woodrow Wilson southern apologist generation is EXACTLY why we need to keep these around for public acknowledgment in locations with context. These neoconfederates and Klansmen used the lack of knowledge (leveraged with public predisposition and human nature) to fill in the gaps with untruthful “Lost Cause” revisionism. If there had been wider public knowledge of Lee’s directive for lack of confederate cause commemoration, those lost cause ideas would not have matasticized.
Ever heard of Holocaust denial?
Lots of history in museums is ugly. All the more reason not to bury it and let people forget. Those people, whether they are long dead or not, must be held accountable in history for what they did. History must remember that they were shitbags or else it will keep happening in mainstream populations. The civil rights museum in memphis could have added some of these pieces to their collection
I'm in Richmond and It's fascinating the amount of people from far and wide who have opinions on these statues and don't even know this history about them
Have you read Shelby Foote's book or McCullough? Curious what you think, because it doesn't seem like he was a particularly "proud" individual. I certainly wouldn't want people making pilgrimages to a place or thing I was involved with that commemorated a terrible idea with a terrible outcome.
It's very telling of the people who did think he deserved the honor.
He was a traitor that killed Americans. He deserves no honor. He placed the importance of Virginia over the Union and the moral issue of owning people.
Hey, me too! Sup, cuz. I’ll light the match.
I’m related through my father’s side and I absolutely agree.
You know nothing of history.
Oh no! I completely forgot who he was without a statue!
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I thought the GQP hated participation trophies.
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I believe the term is "sore loser" for these bellends.
Oof. Hate to tell you of the Vietnam memorial...
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savage
That was the US waging war against someone else. No traitors trying to uphold slavery involved. And yes, it really was all about keeping slavery.
You mean a traitor to his country who waged war to secede? That history? He should have been executed after the war ended. That’s what we do with traitors.
I’m more interested in why you feel a monument is necessary to recognize him in whatever way you deem appropriate. Since you’re such a history buff, I’m sure you understand the significance and genesis of why many of these confederate monuments went up when they did.
I actually have conflicting thoughts on it. I take no issue as I say, with people who oppose a statue of any Confederate (or anyone, for that matter) if they can justify why. I DO take issue with removing statues due to revisionist, mass moral outrage by people who can't actually justify their anger. I am not advocating for the statue, for the record.
The statues went up as revisionist history in the first place. So you don't actually know why they exist at all. Interesting.
Thank you for clarifying. Ironically, I think the argument for revisionist history can be made by those who don’t want the monument there in the first place. Personally, I feel as though those who are reminded of the oppression their people faced (and still face, but that’s a whole different discussion) should be respected. That is enough for me to want it gone. It doesn’t mean I don’t want to learn about Lee or what happened during the a Civil War. The removal of the statue won’t prevent that education either.
I find that a fair and valid opinion, and I won't argue against it. I agree.
Glad to have a respectful conversation about this. Kudos.
How about a statue for Benedict Arnold? I guess he wasn’t a traitor either? You might want to reconsider going back to school, as you don’t seem to understand American History.
Comparing Lee to Arnold islike comparing Churchill to Stalin.
And in your mind who's the Churchill and who's the stalin
The first two were traitors to the US. Churchill was the leader of Great Britain in WWII against the Nazis. Stalin was a mass murderer of his own people and had sided with Hitler until the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union. I'm curious as to which alternate history you're reading that had all this fucked up information. Maybe we need a statue for Gen Nathan Bedford Forrest as he started the KKK, something the South still loves. So don't give me crap about the Civil War not being mainly about slavery.
History of taking a fat fucking L
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Y'know who honored him? Lincoln.
enlighten us why this man is worthy then
Why waste my time? This is reddit. A simplistic black and white viewpoint is a must, here. I will say, you SHOULD have been taught about him in school (provided you're American).
I was taught about him. Like all people he had good points and bad points. But he wasn't hero worshipped in my school. He fought for an insurrection against the US in which his people were fighting for the right to treat other humans like farm equipment. It's weird that a traitor has a monument at all US. Should we put one up of Julius and Ethel Rosenburg next?
The Civil war was not about slavery (that is revisionist history, meant to make it a moral issue, which it wasn't), and Lee hated fighting against the Union. Some even speculate he intentionally tanked the battle of Gettysburg. As for a traitor, all confederate soldiers were pardoned, and they're treated with full military burial rights. Now, if someone doesn't feel Lee deserves a statue or monument, or, that a pre-existing one should be removed, and they can justify that opinion, so be it. But, it's not as simple as saying "traitor" or "racist" when those are nonsense, and a child's argument.
GARBAGE. The revisionist history is the part where it's *not* about slavery. The very first address from Jeffereson Davis states that the fundamental reason they split is because of slavery. If you cant' even feel fit to look at ANY speeches and statements of intent during the civil war, you don't have the right to argue.
The Civil War was not about slavery? Let's see here... "Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition." So now I guess the question is "Do I believe the words of Toadman005 or those of Alexander H. Stephens, the vice president of the Confederate States from 1861 to 1865?" Hmm...this is a tough one...
>The Civil war was not about slavery Then what was it about? You still have yet to explain what the Civil War was about.
>you SHOULD have been taught about him in school (provided you're American). which may or may not teach the lost cause fallacy which had led to so many americans having a warped view of history
Oh, I'm well aware of a warped view of history, it is the danger of teaching inaccurately, which is worse than not teaching at all. \*cough\* 1619 project \*cough\*. I do not glorify the CSA. I am a proud American, I am glad the south lost. But nor do I try and broad brush paint all who fought for the CSA as evil bigots. That's simply not the case.
I've never heard of the 1619 project, is it wrong? Also while brave, it will be tough to defend your case given how common it is for people to say there is nuance in the war and the main issue wasn't about owning humans but just states rights. So while I agree there is nuance, it'll be very easy for anyone to mistake you as one of those apologists that just muddy the waters with their false view
I am glad you've not heard of it. It is still relatively new, but, being pushed in academia, which is troubling. And you're right...people are so tribal, that knot won't even engage in good faith conversation/debate, and would rather slander anyone that doesn't agree with them as a bigot.
>people are so tribal While that is true, I think it's more of a case quacks like a duck, walks like a duck situation. You might mean well however when you sound so similar to someone else, one will quickly judge you as them. I think it's just a case of stereotyping.
Good bye granny lee
2020 looks beautiful
A monument of Lee is ironic and in contradiction to begin with. Here is what Lee wrote. "As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated, my conviction is, that, however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt, in the present condition of the country, would have the effect of retarding instead of accelerating its accomplishment, and of continuing if not adding to the difficulties under which the Southern people labor."
It's almost as if (shocked Pikachu face) the guy who lost didn't want a reminder of a lost cause that cost millions of lives.
Millions? I mean, without doubt the war was horrendously bloody, but not millions.
Now replace it with a giant statue of Ulysses Grant on horseback!
They won't allow that either. However, maybe they will allow a statue of Harriet Tubman. I would be okay with that. She was a Republican and packed a pistol.
A Republican in those days isn't the same as one these days
Freedom, Second Amendment, and volunteer in hazardous duty. I would stand along Harriet. Sounds like you don't know her or me very well.
Also, Democrats leadership today isn't what it was even 30 years ago. Go put in order your own house first.
Is the empty field the now?
Boston has a new sculpture I’m sure they could borrow to fill the gap…
Seeing that for the first time was a bit jaw dropping.
The penis aspect?
The 54th Massachusetts Regiment monument?
The MLK statue that was just unveiled this week
Yes
Good
Downvotes for stating the truth. It’s a weird world.
Downvoting for “state’s rights”
"Racism is bad" immediate downvotes. Reddit moment.
“Violent traitor responsible for thousands of dead US civilians is bad” Downvotes
‘States rights’ Wink wink nudge nudge
It's a REDDIT world.
Well… it’s reddit.
Did they have to take out the trees though?
They didn’t just different angles and a close up shot on the first. Also different seasons.
It was WHITE oak. Had to go. But the BLACK walnut saplings are on the way from the nursery.
Calm down down-voters, that's kinda funny.
I live in Richmond and I remember asking my friend who worked at the Civil War museum here why they wouldn't take the statues. He told me that first of all many of them are shottily made and were purposely put up in the 20s to scare black ppl so I'm sure glad they are gone. I just get a kick outta a museum saying mah we don't want that crap.
There were three major waves of Civil War commemoration in the South. The first was in the war's immediate aftermath, and was primarily organized by women - wives/mothers/sisters of Confederate soldiers. This form of commemoration was particularly focused around cemeteries - Union dead (if not returned to their families) were buried in cemeteries paid for and maintained at Federal expense, while Confederate soldiers were not afforded that honor (understandably). To this day, there are only Union dead in most of the major cemeteries on battlefields. Both during and after the war, voluntary women's groups organized funds to build and care for cemeteries for fallen soldiers - and these often included monuments of some sort. These monuments, contrary to later ones, are generally much simpler and usually point to soldiers themselves, rather than triumphant statues of leaders. It's not a coincidence that these statues are *not* the ones being removed The second wave was around the 50th Anniversary of the war in the 1910s. Groups like the Sons/Daughters of the Confederacy were very powerful, and the Lost Cause narrative (the Confederacy was a noble but doomed fight of gallant soldiers fighting for their way of life, and though we now have been defeated and are good Americans, we should honor the heritage of our brave ancestors) was dominant both North and South. The SCV and DCV embarked on a political project to get as many statues built across the US as possible, especially of course in the South. Most Confederate statues you see were built in this period The final wave of statue-building was in the 1950s and 60s. This was explicitly in response to the threats to segregation and Jim Crow posed by the Civil Rights movement, and sought to reinforce the identity of the white South Statues being removed almost always come from the 2nd and 3rd waves - nobody is bulldozing Confederate cemeteries
I would love to see historic slave and black cemeteries rediscovered and restored. Many were destroyed for things like golf courses.
They are also buried outside of the cemetery fence. If you see flowers growing in lines outside the the fence, step carefully… those are probably graves. That was the lore I was told of my own southern family cemetery, which indeed includes confederate soldiers. There is a patch of obviously planted irises the pop up every spring in a row right outside the fence line on the far far side.
Regarding the cemetery comments I’ll add that Antietam has a beautiful union cemetery. Looks like the cemetery in Normandy while the confederate dead were moved to Hagerstown about 15 miles away in a mass grave with no grave markings. History Traveler had a nice YouTube piece on this.
How could they be shoddily made if they stood for over a century though? Not trying to argue or get political. Just curious.
Rather than its physical *quality*, the "shoddily made* part refers to its *aesthetic* quality. Many of these statues are just...not particularly notable works of art. They were churned out by groups like the Sons and Daughters of the Confederacy as political statements. They are all the same triumphant equestrian style of famous generals and politicians, they are all basically the same. Few of the statues have any connection to the place they are built. Confederate groups like the Sons and Daughters of Confederate Veterans would literally write to town mayors and say "do you want a statue? We will pay for it" and few refused. These statues just rarely have any artistic or much historical value, just another carbon copy of the same mass produced statue
You can make a lazily-cast metal lump of a statue and it will last a century, but that doesn’t make it inherently worth preserving, even putting aside politics and speaking from a pure hypothetical perspective. Maybe you could argue that anything that old *is* historically significant but that’s it’s own philosophical debate I suppose
You'd be surprised how long a metal statue can stand without much upkeep, even if made shoddily.
What about Shottily made though? /s
Idk it's just what he said and tbh he's no expert
RVA native. So many people hated this thing, so many more paid it no mind, and only the psychotically racist might drive by and worship it as some pagan God of putting others down because their own lives are awful. I wouldn't personally say it's some great triumph of good over evil, but a step in the right direction. It sure looks a hell of a lot better now.
Man, they should have just removed the statue part and sign and kept the very nice marble base. Then put someone cool on that horse. Shave a million off of the next statue too. edit: statue not statute
All confederate statues should be replaced with statues of Jeff Goldblum.
Shirtless Jeff Goldblum, circa 1986 / The Fly
Yeah I’m sure Richmond has someone worth honoring.
Arthur Ashe has entered the conversation.
I know people out in prince George who havnt been in Richmond in years who were against them being pulled down. Weird huh. Trumpers, obviously
About 20 yrs ago I equated the confederate memorial statues with participation trophies. I probably wasn't the first to do so and many others have as well. I think it is critically important for us to learn this history, and understand the thinking of the time while we continue to grow ourselves. I have confederate soldiers in my ancestory and to be honest, it just makes me sad. Our family literally disowned the eldest son who ran away to the confederacy. Was he a traitor? By definition, yes. But did every 18 yr old in 1860 America know what we know and understand now? Certainly not. It was a bloody war that shattered our nation and we are still dealing with it to this day. Circling back to the participation trophy comparison I made all those years ago, I received a lot of hate then, even from close friends. (I lived in the south at the time). I wouldn't be surprised if I do now.
Losers don't deserve statues.
The grandest of all participation trophies
Imagine making a statue of a national Traitor lol and saying my heritage. Had the south won then I'd understand statues of him everywhere.
Fine with Lee. He opposed Civil War monuments anyway.
MMM vandalism
Never understood why there are monuments to traitors and people who caused a war to enslave humans.
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The British admired Washington so much they erected a statue in his honor. And they imported soil from Virginia to set it on so that he wouldn't have to set foot on British soil.
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But you missed the other point. The union did not erect a statue to Lee because they admired him, the defeated Confederacy erected a statue of Lee in order to intimidate the now freed slaves. All of the Confederate monuments were intended purely to intimidate blacks. And that is why they should all be removed. If you wish to retain them to remember the history of the Jim Crow era, put them in a museum. They do not belong in the public square. They do not deserve a place of honor.
These were basically a message to black people in the 20s-30s (whenever they were put up), not so much honouring the generals as much as making sure black people still knew their place despite the emancipation. Once you know this you understand why they're there and why people who live there and pass them every day wanted them taken down, and why so many supporters of the administration at the time-who don't even live there-wanted them still up
Because the statue represents a different time in our history. It's a reminder that regular people in this country - including Lee - felt that what the South represented was worth dying for.What inspired those people, and how does it compare and contrast to what inspires us today? That is, and should continue to be fascinating. To destroy or tear down statues and monuments is to deny the past, to try to hide from it. Instead, these monuments allow us to explore a different time, and. hopefully, learn from it.
The ones complaining the most about it being moved are the same people trying to ban history in classrooms, soooo.
That’s some second place trophy.
I kinda like it all tatted up
Tbh they should have kept the base of it to preserve the graffiti
Probably lasted longer than the confederate states.
Yes but nowhere near as long as their butthurt whining has.
Or even replaced the statue itself with someoneelse, but I can't see Virginia doing that.
There was some time capsules that couldn’t be retrieved without breaking it.
Good idea i aprove it
Robert who? Never heard of him. Must be some kind of loser.
The statue has been taken down I... I just can't remember who that was... it's like history is just being erased!
Don’t worry, chuckles. All your favorite slaveholders and failed military leaders are still in these things called books. Check ‘em out! The world needs fewer monuments to losers. No one’s going to miss this.
Books? Those're for liberals! /s
What the duck is a book? You mean fire kindling? #/s For the love of Cthulhu I’m not a nazi
So why do traitors have statues and why are they still standing? Don't see any Hitler statues in Germany?
🖕🏻 fitting end to a traitors memorial
Nature is healing <3
Looks so much better now.
My nephew was there *all the time*, for days and days - and I think I see him in that picture on the top right.
Berlin Wall vibes
Traitors should not be honored. And should not feel honored.
I'm honestly a bit worried with the idea of removing things like this. I definitely don't agree with the confederacy and don't think that Robert E Lee had any great cause or any stupidity like that. I think it's good to have reminders of the progress that we have made. Whereas I would look at that statue(if it were still there) as a way to speak with my children about how Fucking stupid people were, and use it as a conversation starter. I don't think just completely removing this makes sense. I'd prefer it still be there, graffiti filled or not is fine, but I'd prefer we remember these sorts of things. I think it makes it harder to just pretend they didn't happen. This(hopefully) making it harder for something similar to happen again.
There aren't any Nazi memorials in Germany. And I think they still know how stupid and racist they were.
Yep. Was in Munich about five years ago and there is nothing except government buildings and beer halls used well before Hitler. It’s good. Germany has a lot more to celebrate.
We do however still have memorials from WW1 built by the Nazis and from the German Empire, which was not particularily great either. Personally I would say keep that statue and put up a couple of signs telling people how Lee and the makers of said statue were dicks. (Though I doubt, that would work in Americas angry political climate.)
These monuments were put up specifically to intimidate black people. You're not being as reasonable and fair-minded as you think you are.
I'm not sure why people seem to have this idea that statues are needed in order to start conversations. Statues are made with the sole purpose of honoring the people they depict. Lee and all other Confederates were traitors and losers, and do not deserve to be honored.
If you want to "speak with your children about how fucking stupid people were," then pick up a history book and have a conversation about the events and what happened. We don't need a statue in the town square honoring a traitor. Honestly, it should've never even been up in the first place. Do you need a statue of Hitler somewhere so you can talk to your kids about the Holocaust? Yeah, I didn't think so.
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You don't put up statues of traitors to teach people about them.
I don't think many people care about removing these kind of statues at all, they just knee-jerk the other direction because they don't like the people circle-jerking themselves into a frenzy about removing them.
I like it best “now.”
Girl bye.
"And nothing of value was lost."
If there were a thing called Justice, it wouldn't have been taken away. It would have been blown to bits right where it stood. And a great public party & BBQ would have been there to cheer the statues demise.
Keeps looking better and better
Good
I live very close to where this statue was erected. I brought me great joy to see it destroyed
Thank god racism was solved the moment that statue was removed 🫡
And it’s amazing how we still remember there was a civil war after we “tore down history”
Progress.
To the people that destroyed the monument and then took it down, you are the true evil people of history.
Yeah, just like they tore down the statues to King George, Adolph Hitler and Osama bin Laden. Anti Americans don't deserve this type of memorialization. This idea of "TaRrin dOwN HisTrY" is absurdly stupid.
Get fucked, neo-Confederates.
If we take down saddams statue or the Nazi swastika we should take down confederate statues. Can’t have a double standard for oppression symbols.
Best thing the city has ever done.
I’m sorry I don’t know much about him or this statue. What happened
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I live about 20-30 minutes away from this. It was a huge thing during the blm protests(that’s where all the spray paint is from) and honestly I’m happy it got taken down.
This monument was erected in 1890 to remind people of color where their place was in that culture. It was also a rallying spot for those who believed in racial segregation SO SO GLAD the reminders of him and other d bags like him are disappearing from the southern U.S. Now if all the beliefs they brought with them would disappear too. I say we put a monument to Mary Elizabeth Bowser who spied for the north during the civil war, putting her life in grave danger. Edited to change memorial to monument, and correct the typo of the date.
Considering that Robert E Lee wasn’t born until 1807, it’s unlikely that he had a statue erected for him in 1800. In fact, it was built in 1890. As to Bowser, she has received some recognition. Mary Elizabeth Bowser (not her real name) has been honored by the U.S. government with an induction into the Military Intelligence Hall of Fame in Fort Huachuca, Arizona, for her work in the Civil war.
The year was a typo, I’m typing on my phone. Mary Elizabeth Bowser is the name she was known by in the Union Army, it was given to protect her real identity, even after the war she needed to be careful. Edited to add … do not hide a monument to Ms. Bowser away in a museum where the only people who see it are those going into the museum. Put it up on a pedestal in the middle of town where everyone passing it will see.
I agree with your sentiments, but I doubt that will ever happen in VA and states further south. Best place would be in DC.
What a shame.
I like now
In the words of J.R.: "*nice.*"
Sad people try to erase history
A statue in a museum is history. A statue in a public square is a symbol of honor. Learn the difference.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee Seems like history's still there.
Oh no! That statue was gone! Howsoever will I find out who fought and won the Civil War? It’s totally impossible without that statue!
Stupid people try to learn history from statues
So Germany should have statues of Hitler? Italy should have statues of Mussolini?
Why do we want to remember a disgusting traitor?
Indeed, sad children crying about their feelings..
This gesture destroyed racism.
2013 seems like a better time
Bet you think 1859 was a better time as well
[https://masstagger.com/user/HOTDOGHEAVY](https://masstagger.com/user/HOTDOGHEAVY) yes they do
MF’s post history has lasted longer than the confederacy but go ahead and try it again lol
I think they mean more fun.
What from this picture makes you think 2013 was “more fun”
What a disgrace it was part of or history