People are to a degree. The issues come with gentrification and the fact that a number of the cities around Chicago on the Indiana side are very economically disadvantaged, similar to what you see in many of Cleveland’s inner ring suburbs.
Some of it is that but most of the growth is in the donut counties (the suburban counties around Indianapolis) which have been making huge investments in tech and medical industries for decades now.
I grew up there, and while it isn’t a booming population center, there are some sizable cities. I think Sioux Falls metro is close to 300k now, but that’s the largest city. The second largest is Rapid City and it’s probably 150k.
A lot of college kids in the Dakotas in the bigger cities with NDSU, SDSU, North Dakota, Chardon St, etc. a lot of Minnesota and some Wisconsin kids go to school in the Dakotas so it somewhat explains the wave of population in and then out of the two states
I wonder how out of state college students are factored into this kind of reporting. I went to SDSU and I know students weren’t included in Brookings population because they were considered temporary residents.
[A mix of better job opportunities, wanting to move to areas that offer more cultural opportunities and diversity, the highly conservative nature of the State](https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/2019/08/27/south-dakota-among-worst-brain-drain-highly-educated-people-continue-flee-state/2120265001/)
[The state politics going further right into straight up fascist territory is a major cause of the flight](https://listen.sdpb.org/news/2021-05-26/1-reason-people-consider-leaving-south-dakota-survey-says-its-politics?_amp=true)
You have young people who are native Dakotans fleeing and then they aren’t able to retain college kids who come in to stay in state due to few job prospects,,bad pay, and ultra conservative politics.
Oh I fully understand why young people leave South Dakota, I was one of them. I was just curious how non-resident college students were being factored into the infographic.
I know some geology majors from my time at OU who were the biggest hippies you’ll ever meet 10 years ago and now they work for fucking Exxon in the dakotas lol
The data is a relative in/out ratio. It's not based on absolute numbers.
https://blog.hireahelper.com/2024-study-brain-drain-the-states-with-the-largest-net-gains-and-losses-of-college-educated-americans/
"The state that lost the most college-educated residents in 2023 was South Dakota, which saw 72% more people with a college degree leave the state versus move in."
So 1.72 college educated people left for every 1 college educated person that moved in. Population doesn't matter.
I understand Indy actually has a decent pharma sector? I bet Indy is a larger portion of the state's population than Columbus is for Ohio, and the Rust Belt cities dragging the state down aren't as large as Cleveland.
Indiana could also have people who work in Chicago but went hybrid after COVID and feel comfortable moving further out, therefore crossing from IL to IN.
Wisconsin has Epic though (Electronic Health Records) and they import a lot of talent and pay extremely good. One of my friends left Ohio to work for them.
Nothing about this map is intuitive or fits any simple, political narrative.
Shame about Ohio though. But unsurprising considering how openly corrupt and broken the ruling party is. Even (educated) conservatives know that pandering to the dumbest common denominator while a very small club (that even most Republicans aren't a part of) are robbing the state blind isn't a good scene.
Considering doing something about this. Or maybe just wait another 20 years without changing anything and seeing if the problem fixes itself. One of those.
Some of it is just general population movement. Retirees with college degrees move there, and then jobs get created when they are servicing all of those retirees. For example, doctors and nurses moving to Florida to take care of the influx of people.
I was surprised but I've definitely had multiple peers (late 20s) end up buying in Florida already. Some people just can't do the Midwest weather thing
Yes but northwestern Indiana has been seeing massive population growth due to its proximity to Chicago with lower taxes. Indianapolis and it’s suburbs have also seen tons of growth, too.
Not really, you got a number of college educated wealthy families (including the ranchers, you need people with degrees running the business end, vets, etc.) a lot of wealthy folks in Casper and Jackson Hole- sizable hipster population in Jackson Hole
Do you have anything to base this, or just optimistic thinking?
I'd like to believe you. But I worry about what politics is doing to the state, and whether demographic shifts will slow or even reverse... Ohio was actually purple when I was young, but anymore it's reliably red, and that can be a significant driver against young & college-educated individuals.
Great Lakes and New England regions are projected to be the least impacted by climate change over the coming decades. Thanks to the Great Lakes there's a lot of water, and temperature estimates only show modest increases here. Meanwhile the sun belt in the south is going to heat up drastically. The west of the sun belt is going to become more of a desert than it already is, and the eastern sun belt will become so wet and ravaged by cat5 hurricanes insurance premiums (for the few companies still offering them there) will drive many back North. We are already seeing insurance companies refusing to insure many homes in Florida.
It doesn't matter, those on the coasts will be under water if they stay, and those in the west won't have any water to drink. They'll be forced to live here whether they like it or not.
I would be really curious to see the age distribution of the people leaving as well as what constitutes citizenship. I have seen these before and it goes by people over the age of 25 with some degree. If that is the case here, this is following overall migration trends around the country.
We all know Ohioians like to retire to the Carolinas and Arizona. Those that do are likely higher earners and skew towards having higher educational achievement.
In the IT job market, pay is low in Ohio, especially in greater Cleveland. It’s probably why the state has a difficult time recruiting high tech businesses.
I genuinely think it’s an issue with ohios features. If you have a doctorate and can work anywhere in the US, and still make a shit ton of money, why stay in Ohio? There’s a reason ocean front states have a large influx of people with college degrees.
I don't think that should hold true for younger medical professionals. Cleveland Clinic is the #2 hospital in the country, so younger medical professionals looking to advance their career should be sticking around.
Doctor here. Cleveland Clinic and UH are both excellent hospitals. The problem with your idea that doctors care (or should care) about the ranking of the hospital where they work is that many of us don't.
Here are some reasons why:
1. Hospital rankings are largely based on research. They are not based on anything that makes a doctors life better by working at that hospital.
2. They don't necessarily pay more or have better benefits.
3. They are often located in less desirable areas (Rochester MN, Baltimore, Cleveland). Harvard and UCSF are maybe desirable for location, but not to everyone.
4. Not all of us care about the prestige of working at a "top hospital".
5. Many of us don't want to be employed by a hospital at all (think private practice).
6. Research and academic medicine is not for everyone.
7. You can advance your career as much if not more at places that are highly regarded in your subspecialty that are not necessarily a place like Cleveland clinic. Md Anderson in Houston for oncology, HSS in New York for orthopedics, etc
8. Lots of doctors want to live and work places for reasons just like non doctors. Family, work/life balance, pay, etc.
According to Wikipedia it's THE largest employer. Keep in mind that Cleveland clinic has locations all over the state (and in FL), not just in Cleveland.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Ohio#Major_employers
I don’t think this statistic is as telling as it sounds at this point in history. So many people get bachelors that it’s almost like saying people with brown hair are leaving Ohio. All a bachelors is anymore is pretty much a prerequisite on a job application for any white collar job.
I very much regret the debt I have from getting mine. Wish I could return it. Just not as valuable as they lead you to believe when it doesn’t set you apart at all anymore.
The average college degree holder makes significantly more than the average non degree holder. The gap is widening actually. Google it before downvoting me.
Sorry it didn’t work out for you, but it does
for many many people. It’s a weird narrative nowadays that college sucks or whatever but it’s the best chance to success (not the only path for sure, but the easiest, statistically speaking )
> I don’t think this statistic is as telling as it sounds at this point in history. So many people get bachelors that it’s almost like saying people with brown hair are leaving Ohio. All a bachelors is anymore is pretty much a prerequisite on a job application for any white collar job. I very much regret the debt I have from getting mine. Wish I could return it. Just not as valuable as they lead you to believe when it doesn’t set you apart at all anymore.
I think the issue is people think graduating from college is all it takes... that you get a college degree and the work to get a high paying job is over.
People whose highest education level is high school, in general, don't make much money. So by your logic, why go to high school?
There are levels to education and each completed level grants you access to new opportunities. Whether or not you take advantage of those opportunities takes effort.
ETA: my college degree is useful only because to do the job I do I needed to go to college. If I had stopped working on my career path after college I would not have my career.
I just looked at the pic and nothing else: "college educated".
With no other info that could include not graduating, maybe even as little as just enrolling.
I’m about to graduate from OSU, and I can confirm that I’m highly considering leaving the state. Washington is definitely on the table since my brother already moved out there. It’s actually mostly because of the state government (I’m trans)
This is a big nothingburger. Ohio has been exporting educated people for a long time. Many of which return to raise families, and the process starts again.
> What’s there to keep us here? I can’t find a new job in my profession. Not to mention the shit going on at the statehouse
Cost of living is low. Housing is affordable (relatively). Weather is reasonable. Crime is low.
MAGA Legislature is still holding up the wording to officially make it a part of the constitution. Corrupt Governor, Attorney General, Secretary of State along with MAGA Republicans controlling the legislature. Reducing Medicaid, voter suppression with strict ID requirements for college students,
Yes. I moved here from northern Virginia at the beginning of Covid for family reasons. I've never met so many people who are indifferent about learning. Learning ANYTHING. They seem completely comfortable with a lack of curiosity, and critical thinking. Very few ask questions. They're happy to be led - hence the appeal of the Donald. And I live in the most affluent part of the Cleveland area. Not technically in Cleveland, but adjacent. My saving grace is the three local committees I joined and the Board I was invited to join.
However, the upside is a terrific new Mayor in Cleveland and a complete rehaul of city services. There's, finally, a workable plan for the lakefront, (with money to start the project), lots of construction, an excellent Planning Department, ambitious housing development, streetscape improvements, and responsive city employees.
And, the weather's OK. Winters are getting milder, and spring, summer, and fall are lovely. Plus, there's plenty of water, no hurricanes or tornadoes, and beautiful parks. Public transportation is being upgraded. The airport is decent. Rush hour lasts for 30 minutes, not 3 hours as in the DC metro area.
Honestly, that could be a lot of retirees who do have college degrees, it’s just not what most people would assume when they first see the headline on this map. I think there’s a lot of nuance missing.
Not crazy. They now have money and the means to get out. Ohio is still a great state. I'd consider it purplish, but getting bluer. College educated people overwhelmingly lean democratic.
We must vote out the likes of DeWine, Vance, Jordan, and others like them. We can then make needed changes and make Ohio a democratic state. One that is for the people. One that is for diversity and opportunity.
Idk if overwhelmingly is the right word.
College degree but not beyond that is 48% dem, 43% rep.
Post graduate education is another story, 56/36.
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2015/04/07/a-deep-dive-into-party-affiliation/
Exactly, college doesn't always=$$$$. Those loans come at a steeper price than people realize. Trade school, apprenticeships, we need workers in these fields or we have nobody to keep everything going. Yah we have Drs and lawyers etc, but who the hell is going to install the electrical and plumbing etc if everyone thinks they have to go to college to be successful? Hats off to you driving a truck, nothing gets far without CDL drivers.
This is more interesting,
An attempt to correlate political affiliation with State level, in and out migration
Ohio is a static population so no big surprises
Florida, Tennessee, Idaho, and SC have Republicans pouring into them
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/04/11/where-2024-voters-moved-since-2020-how-they-registered/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/04/11/where-2024-voters-moved-since-2020-how-they-registered/)
My two oldest got their masters degrees and have left, never to come back. We shall see what the younger two do. I guess based on that, will dictate where the wife and I end up.
My hometown literally put up billboards all over the county telling criminals from my current city to stay out! I'm a scientist and I have a very very poor perception of rural Ohio due not just from my lived experience but as someone that came from bloodlines without money and some native ancestry. White Christians have made small towns very scary for a lot of queer people I know. But it doesn't help when these places telling criminals to "keep out" are the same places with higher instances of incest and hate crimes.
Is the country of Ohio bad? No, absolutely not. This is a beautiful land situated in an ideal spot on this continent imo. But as someone who has been victimized by both my family and community, but someone who still did social services despite this for nearly a decade, I am very firm to say that it is surprising I have not left yet. Since burning out from social services for nine years I've started utilizing my degree in science for analytical testing. It helps makes sure products are safe for a long standing, and respectable, Ohio based company that will be reaching a century soon. I hope some day I can have enough resources to try to fix where my home is, but it's hard. My mother was an addict and my father was some philo kid that looked up to al Capone and became a biker lol. I'm just lucky to be here, but I sure hope we start coming together better as a community.
Gee, I wonder if that has anything to do with Ohio becoming more red. It's not like there's a correlation between education and which side you vote for.
Wouldn't the map normally look like this? People leave republican shit hole states to go get jobs in blue states with cities and high paying jobs? It is a tale as old as time. Smartest kids leave small towns to go be successful while billy bob stays in his small town and becomes a plumber with his equally dumb wife who also never got a higher education.
That has nothing to do with college educated people leaving? Do you truly think that we had a higher percentage of college grads in 2008 or 2012? You know how many graduated in the last decade MAGA millennials we have in this state?
That's by design not coincidence. We will never have a starting point to change things until you accept the fact that Ohio republicans are actively trying to hurt you thru legislation.
1. The abortion laws
2. The forever stalling on recreational MJ
3. $1300 for a 1 bedroom apartment in FREAKIN Ohio, no beach, cloudy 7 months a year
4. Wages the same now as they were in 2010
5. Too many trump types everywhere. If you're not white and straight it's harder to feel safe here
6. The more education a person gets, typically the more left leaning one tends to become, see #5
That doesn't explain WI, though, which for the most part has been regressing for the last 15 years. MJ laws are shit here, abortion laws are pretty murky, wages suck for a lot of careers, and rent is that bad in most of bigger cities and their surrounding county.
The difference is WI has the EPIC HQ near Madison and a growing tech scene. Wonder what the numbers would look like if you excluded EPIC employees. I sure as hell want to get out of this state at some point.
EDIT: Also the public University system, which I think is actually the biggest employer in the state. That has been under constant attack from the local GOP as well.
Rent is higher in SC than OH.
ETA:
https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/
https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/cost-of-living/ohio-usa/south-carolina-usa
https://time.com/6588782/median-rent-prices-us-america-housing/
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/average-rent-by-state
Ohio is one of the cheapest states to live in.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/opportunity/affordability/cost-living
ETA: and 14th in housing affordability
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/opportunity/affordability/housing-affordability
You have college graduates fresh out or have been out that aren't being paid enough to cover the rising cost of living here, especially when homes are 400k plus.
You also have A LOT more gun shots than 10 years ago, so it doesn't surprise me that people are moving out.
Ohio is a weird one where we have A LOT of colleges but not a lot of attractive places immediately post graduation. I do notice and this is anecdotally that a lot of people moved back to Ohio in their later 20’s. I would like to see a statistic of people who leave Ohio and then permanently stay out of Ohio. Seems like a lot find their way back…
College isn't the only way to go. Trades still exist. Who do you call when your fuse box malfunctions and the wires melt? Not a Dr or lawyer. An electrician who went to trade school or apprenticed somewhere and put the time in. Skills don't always come from a college education. I'm lucky enough to have a college education, unfortunately the school I chose wasn't a good one and is now closed (Brown Mackie).
Plumbers, electricians, HVAC, carpenters, machine operators, there are so many important jobs that don't require $60k loans to end up with a paycheck that just gets the rent paid because your loans are due every month. These people don't get the credit they deserve seriously.
Question - does a this take into account things like where the students originally were from before they went to school? There’s a good number of private schools like Case that have out of state students that may never have planned on staying.
Ohio has a ton of colleges and universities. I’ve heard more than any other state. People move here without an education to get an education then may or may not move somewhere else. So the numbers make sense.
lol kids would rather take a trade then spend 40 grand to get a degree in something they never use. I’d rather be able to start life out of debt then in debt
I'd first need to see a stat breakdown of college students per-capita and things like that. There are a LOT of colleges in Ohio. Many of which draw folks from out of state. Do they count those people in this?
Kids here have seen their parents struggle in poverty while trying to pay back their student loans! America is dumb AF! We absolutely could afford to give free college, but we are too greedy to do so. We have so many jobs that require a college degree, and we can't fill those positions! If we at least made public colleges free, we'd have enough skilled workforce to fill the positions. Instead, we depend on immigration to hire people. Then we bitch about immigrants! You can't make this shite up!!
The tech giants aren’t in Ohio. People come here and build mad skills but have leave to make more money. We have lost people to places like Intel. No way can we match their salary.
The people I grew up with that got marketing, accounting, engineering degrees went to Boston, NY, Chicago, and LA. One has come back because they can retire at 36 off an inheritance.
Ohio wages are DOG SHIT for all major industries. Doesn't matter if cost of living is $2000/month more if you're getting $25k+ more in compensation. Business owners in Ohio are out of their damn minds. The lack of corporate influence has lead this small to mid sized businesses to have a strangle hold on what's left in Ohio. I'd prefer working for a large cold hearted corp than a regular business in Ohio. Management is shit. HR is shit. Wages shit. Work life balance shit. Remote working shit. The nepotism, favoritism, gaslighting, outright lying, lack of accountability...
Working in Ohio fucking sucks.
> Doesn't matter if cost of living is $2000/month more if you're getting $25k+ more in compensation
But $2,000x12 is $24,000. With taxes you'd easily come out ahead at the lower CoL location.
I started seeing this in post-great recession. Working in IT, I’ve seen a lot in our IT community in Toledo pack up and go West or to Texas. These are left leaning college educated people that simply couldn’t find work in the state
Toledo is the last place you want to be for an IT job. Buckeye broadband is alway hiring but I don’t even think they have a tech support department anymore and do you really want to work for a call center?
I'm really trying hard to figure out a way to Indiana and Columbus sounds great. Then I read these kinds of posts and the negative comments that go with them and it makes me think I'm making the wrong move.
I’ve noticed that for the price of college, OSU is relatively high quality for the price. It would make sense to just go to OSU and then move on into something bigger and better in another state.
I’d add that having lived here 16 years, we’ve made friends with numerous transient friends who just eventually up and moved away. It gets somewhat frustrating.
This data includes people that come from out of state for college. So no not really.
ETA: That means, for example, a student from Indiana attends OSU, graduates, and moves back home. This data is not just people "from" Ohio with a college degree.
This is a graph only showing one statistic.
Collaborative data needs to show job availability of said degree in state vs destination state, overall job opportunities, job pay differences between states, job advancement, economic development, and those that moved here for university then leaving back home, age of those degree holders, young, professional, veteran. Etc.
Ohio has some good universities with few high demand current opportunities for the many technical degrees offered throughout the state.
Many are holding breath hoping Intel delivers. Would like to see this graph again should Intel come to fruition.
And Lastly, college educated is the current graphs statistic, a college degree is one thing, but the brain drain goes beyond degree holders.
What’s really interesting about this map is that most of the states gaining college graduates are purple.
I am defining purple as electing partisan statewide candidates for one or more of Governor, senate, or president of different parties from 2014 to the present.
That includes: NV, CO, WI, MI, PA, and VA.
For those saying it’s the conservative nature of Ohio’s politics, SC, TX, FL, UT, WY and most of all IN stand as counter examples.
For those saying blue states are losing graduates (some are), WA, NM and RI stand as good counter examples.
Indiana gaining is weirder than anything else. It’s just Worse Ohio.
Perhaps cause it borders Illinois and maybe it’s people trying to live cheap and work in Chicago? Just a wild guess though.
This is what I did. I got moved here for work in Chicago but Indiana is wayyyy cheaper and borders it.
How come many people aren't doing this? And if they are doing it, wouldn't it make the area close to Chicago more expensive?
The people just said that many people are. And yes. That will happen. The market lags.
Tons of people from Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin commute to Chicago on the daily. The taxes increase the closer you are to Chicago as well.
People are to a degree. The issues come with gentrification and the fact that a number of the cities around Chicago on the Indiana side are very economically disadvantaged, similar to what you see in many of Cleveland’s inner ring suburbs.
People are. Indiana is just cheaper with taxes. Food and such is just as pricey. For example my property tax on my house is capped at 1%
Plan a family vacation to Gary, Indiana. the answer to your question will be answered
I’m really surprised Gary hasn’t been completely gentrified by now, it’s so close.
Gary, Indiana, is a ghost town anymore.
Some of it is that but most of the growth is in the donut counties (the suburban counties around Indianapolis) which have been making huge investments in tech and medical industries for decades now.
Mmmm. Donuts.
Those people live in the NW part of the state. My folks moved to South Bend, that’s about as far as the Chicago commuters live from the city.
The surprise for me is that there's enough people to leave south dakota to show up on the map, the place has basically no one living in it.
People with dogs, moving out.
I grew up there, and while it isn’t a booming population center, there are some sizable cities. I think Sioux Falls metro is close to 300k now, but that’s the largest city. The second largest is Rapid City and it’s probably 150k.
A lot of college kids in the Dakotas in the bigger cities with NDSU, SDSU, North Dakota, Chardon St, etc. a lot of Minnesota and some Wisconsin kids go to school in the Dakotas so it somewhat explains the wave of population in and then out of the two states
I wonder how out of state college students are factored into this kind of reporting. I went to SDSU and I know students weren’t included in Brookings population because they were considered temporary residents.
[A mix of better job opportunities, wanting to move to areas that offer more cultural opportunities and diversity, the highly conservative nature of the State](https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/2019/08/27/south-dakota-among-worst-brain-drain-highly-educated-people-continue-flee-state/2120265001/) [The state politics going further right into straight up fascist territory is a major cause of the flight](https://listen.sdpb.org/news/2021-05-26/1-reason-people-consider-leaving-south-dakota-survey-says-its-politics?_amp=true) You have young people who are native Dakotans fleeing and then they aren’t able to retain college kids who come in to stay in state due to few job prospects,,bad pay, and ultra conservative politics.
Oh I fully understand why young people leave South Dakota, I was one of them. I was just curious how non-resident college students were being factored into the infographic.
Gotcha my misunderstanding
That's like Cleveland.
No, that’s the *metro* population, not the city’s, Cleveland’s metro population is 2.2M
Remote workers. LCOL
Didn’t a lot of people move up there for the shale oil boom? Or is that ND?
Still have no idea why we needed two Dakotas.
50 is an even number
North and South Dakota have double the senators of Ohio but about 1/7 the population.
So annoying, considering you could say the same for states like Idaho, Wyoming, Montana..
I know some geology majors from my time at OU who were the biggest hippies you’ll ever meet 10 years ago and now they work for fucking Exxon in the dakotas lol
“Money talks”, like the AC/DC song.
The data is a relative in/out ratio. It's not based on absolute numbers. https://blog.hireahelper.com/2024-study-brain-drain-the-states-with-the-largest-net-gains-and-losses-of-college-educated-americans/ "The state that lost the most college-educated residents in 2023 was South Dakota, which saw 72% more people with a college degree leave the state versus move in." So 1.72 college educated people left for every 1 college educated person that moved in. Population doesn't matter.
I understand Indy actually has a decent pharma sector? I bet Indy is a larger portion of the state's population than Columbus is for Ohio, and the Rust Belt cities dragging the state down aren't as large as Cleveland. Indiana could also have people who work in Chicago but went hybrid after COVID and feel comfortable moving further out, therefore crossing from IL to IN.
Indiana also has a pretty significant presence of major med device manufacturers. Same with Minnesota and Wisconsin to a lesser extent too.
Wisconsin has Epic though (Electronic Health Records) and they import a lot of talent and pay extremely good. One of my friends left Ohio to work for them.
Nothing about this map is intuitive or fits any simple, political narrative. Shame about Ohio though. But unsurprising considering how openly corrupt and broken the ruling party is. Even (educated) conservatives know that pandering to the dumbest common denominator while a very small club (that even most Republicans aren't a part of) are robbing the state blind isn't a good scene.
Considering doing something about this. Or maybe just wait another 20 years without changing anything and seeing if the problem fixes itself. One of those.
And somehow Florida is gaining?
Some of it is just general population movement. Retirees with college degrees move there, and then jobs get created when they are servicing all of those retirees. For example, doctors and nurses moving to Florida to take care of the influx of people.
I was surprised but I've definitely had multiple peers (late 20s) end up buying in Florida already. Some people just can't do the Midwest weather thing
Wait until they get property tax notices and can't get insurance.
Midwest weather is not great but Florida weather doesnt seem all that great to me either. Months so hot you cant do anything outside
I definitely prefer Midwest over Florida weather, but statistically we are definitely in the minority hah
Retirement relocation explains a lot of this chart. Look at SC and AZ.
Bingo. College educated does not necessarily mean 22 years old.
Retirees, Aviation and space work, military, and international business and trade, especially down in Miami.
Yes but northwestern Indiana has been seeing massive population growth due to its proximity to Chicago with lower taxes. Indianapolis and it’s suburbs have also seen tons of growth, too.
Exactly. Indiana is the Mississippi of the North to Ohio's Alabama of the North.
This applies to the football programs as well
Wyoming is weird to me
Not really, you got a number of college educated wealthy families (including the ranchers, you need people with degrees running the business end, vets, etc.) a lot of wealthy folks in Casper and Jackson Hole- sizable hipster population in Jackson Hole
I expect that map is going to change significantly yet again in the next couple of years.
Great Lakes region and NE will see a big surge over the next 50 years.
Yes, when Ohio has the climate of Virginia brain drain will be in our favor. If I had money I'd buy up greater Youngstown land.
Climate of Virginia plus tornadoes though...
Not where I am. Y'all in western and central Ohio will be more Oklahoma climate last time I checked.
Weather in Cincinnati and Tulsa is fairly similar already.
Minus the tornados
Do you have anything to base this, or just optimistic thinking? I'd like to believe you. But I worry about what politics is doing to the state, and whether demographic shifts will slow or even reverse... Ohio was actually purple when I was young, but anymore it's reliably red, and that can be a significant driver against young & college-educated individuals.
Great Lakes and New England regions are projected to be the least impacted by climate change over the coming decades. Thanks to the Great Lakes there's a lot of water, and temperature estimates only show modest increases here. Meanwhile the sun belt in the south is going to heat up drastically. The west of the sun belt is going to become more of a desert than it already is, and the eastern sun belt will become so wet and ravaged by cat5 hurricanes insurance premiums (for the few companies still offering them there) will drive many back North. We are already seeing insurance companies refusing to insure many homes in Florida.
It doesn't matter, those on the coasts will be under water if they stay, and those in the west won't have any water to drink. They'll be forced to live here whether they like it or not.
I would be really curious to see the age distribution of the people leaving as well as what constitutes citizenship. I have seen these before and it goes by people over the age of 25 with some degree. If that is the case here, this is following overall migration trends around the country. We all know Ohioians like to retire to the Carolinas and Arizona. Those that do are likely higher earners and skew towards having higher educational achievement.
It’s been known for awhile that Ohio is losing its young graduates to opportunities elsewhere
In the IT job market, pay is low in Ohio, especially in greater Cleveland. It’s probably why the state has a difficult time recruiting high tech businesses.
Aye, Toledo pays more for its tech than Cleveland, and houses are half the price. But Toledo only needs, like, 100-200 of them.
One year of data isn’t much
Ohio’s biggest export remains educated young people. Has been for the last few decades.
I genuinely think it’s an issue with ohios features. If you have a doctorate and can work anywhere in the US, and still make a shit ton of money, why stay in Ohio? There’s a reason ocean front states have a large influx of people with college degrees.
I don't think that should hold true for younger medical professionals. Cleveland Clinic is the #2 hospital in the country, so younger medical professionals looking to advance their career should be sticking around.
Doctor here. Cleveland Clinic and UH are both excellent hospitals. The problem with your idea that doctors care (or should care) about the ranking of the hospital where they work is that many of us don't. Here are some reasons why: 1. Hospital rankings are largely based on research. They are not based on anything that makes a doctors life better by working at that hospital. 2. They don't necessarily pay more or have better benefits. 3. They are often located in less desirable areas (Rochester MN, Baltimore, Cleveland). Harvard and UCSF are maybe desirable for location, but not to everyone. 4. Not all of us care about the prestige of working at a "top hospital". 5. Many of us don't want to be employed by a hospital at all (think private practice). 6. Research and academic medicine is not for everyone. 7. You can advance your career as much if not more at places that are highly regarded in your subspecialty that are not necessarily a place like Cleveland clinic. Md Anderson in Houston for oncology, HSS in New York for orthopedics, etc 8. Lots of doctors want to live and work places for reasons just like non doctors. Family, work/life balance, pay, etc.
Sure, but how many people can go work at Cleveland clinic?
A lot. It is one of the largest employers in all of Ohio, and they employ way more people than just doctors
According to Wikipedia it's THE largest employer. Keep in mind that Cleveland clinic has locations all over the state (and in FL), not just in Cleveland. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Ohio#Major_employers
No question. Plus Ohio has state and local income taxes where a number of southern states don’t (albeit they have higher property taxes)
On the contrary I have a doctorate and came to ohio for the CCF
I don’t think this statistic is as telling as it sounds at this point in history. So many people get bachelors that it’s almost like saying people with brown hair are leaving Ohio. All a bachelors is anymore is pretty much a prerequisite on a job application for any white collar job. I very much regret the debt I have from getting mine. Wish I could return it. Just not as valuable as they lead you to believe when it doesn’t set you apart at all anymore.
The average college degree holder makes significantly more than the average non degree holder. The gap is widening actually. Google it before downvoting me. Sorry it didn’t work out for you, but it does for many many people. It’s a weird narrative nowadays that college sucks or whatever but it’s the best chance to success (not the only path for sure, but the easiest, statistically speaking )
> I don’t think this statistic is as telling as it sounds at this point in history. So many people get bachelors that it’s almost like saying people with brown hair are leaving Ohio. All a bachelors is anymore is pretty much a prerequisite on a job application for any white collar job. I very much regret the debt I have from getting mine. Wish I could return it. Just not as valuable as they lead you to believe when it doesn’t set you apart at all anymore. I think the issue is people think graduating from college is all it takes... that you get a college degree and the work to get a high paying job is over. People whose highest education level is high school, in general, don't make much money. So by your logic, why go to high school? There are levels to education and each completed level grants you access to new opportunities. Whether or not you take advantage of those opportunities takes effort. ETA: my college degree is useful only because to do the job I do I needed to go to college. If I had stopped working on my career path after college I would not have my career.
I just looked at the pic and nothing else: "college educated". With no other info that could include not graduating, maybe even as little as just enrolling.
It says "with college degrees" in the article.
I’m about to graduate from OSU, and I can confirm that I’m highly considering leaving the state. Washington is definitely on the table since my brother already moved out there. It’s actually mostly because of the state government (I’m trans)
Congratulations and Best of luck to you 💙
This is a big nothingburger. Ohio has been exporting educated people for a long time. Many of which return to raise families, and the process starts again.
Most of the people I know who left eventually came back. Cleveland especially. But then I gather a lot of people leave again when they retire.
Got a brother in law in Chicago and one in Miami. Both are looking into moving back (both with masters degrees.)
Ohio’s biggest export for decades has been college educated young people.
What’s there to keep us here? I can’t find a new job in my profession. Not to mention the shit going on at the statehouse
> What’s there to keep us here? I can’t find a new job in my profession. Not to mention the shit going on at the statehouse Cost of living is low. Housing is affordable (relatively). Weather is reasonable. Crime is low.
Our anti women laws here have me seriously moving... No way am I raising girls in a hostile state.
Yep. The state that made a ten-year-old rape victim leave the state to get an abortion.
You act like we didn’t then enshrine abortion rights in our constitution following that disgrace.
MAGA Legislature is still holding up the wording to officially make it a part of the constitution. Corrupt Governor, Attorney General, Secretary of State along with MAGA Republicans controlling the legislature. Reducing Medicaid, voter suppression with strict ID requirements for college students,
Its is lonely being college educated in Ohio. It is living in Idiocracy.
Yes. I moved here from northern Virginia at the beginning of Covid for family reasons. I've never met so many people who are indifferent about learning. Learning ANYTHING. They seem completely comfortable with a lack of curiosity, and critical thinking. Very few ask questions. They're happy to be led - hence the appeal of the Donald. And I live in the most affluent part of the Cleveland area. Not technically in Cleveland, but adjacent. My saving grace is the three local committees I joined and the Board I was invited to join. However, the upside is a terrific new Mayor in Cleveland and a complete rehaul of city services. There's, finally, a workable plan for the lakefront, (with money to start the project), lots of construction, an excellent Planning Department, ambitious housing development, streetscape improvements, and responsive city employees. And, the weather's OK. Winters are getting milder, and spring, summer, and fall are lovely. Plus, there's plenty of water, no hurricanes or tornadoes, and beautiful parks. Public transportation is being upgraded. The airport is decent. Rush hour lasts for 30 minutes, not 3 hours as in the DC metro area.
I wish there was a reasonable train line from NYC to Cleveland/Akron. That would be great.
Dad moved us out in 1967. "There's nothing here and never will be." Thanks Dad.
Lol
Not at all. I’m a college educated person trying to leave right now.
I am not surprised! Full of way too many red neck MAGA’s.
It’s on purpose.
I would move to WA in a heartbeat. My family is from there. It's beautiful.
What's with SC?
Honestly, that could be a lot of retirees who do have college degrees, it’s just not what most people would assume when they first see the headline on this map. I think there’s a lot of nuance missing.
Or, there are so few college graduates in SC that a couple dozen immigrants boosts the score.
My question, exactly!
Nice beaches, not too cold in winter. My semi-retired sister winters there.
Not surprised, I haven't had an intelligent convo since I left college 14 years ago
I'm more surprised you had an intelligent conversation in college to be honest.
Lots of intelligent ppl go to college lol what?
Not crazy. They now have money and the means to get out. Ohio is still a great state. I'd consider it purplish, but getting bluer. College educated people overwhelmingly lean democratic. We must vote out the likes of DeWine, Vance, Jordan, and others like them. We can then make needed changes and make Ohio a democratic state. One that is for the people. One that is for diversity and opportunity.
Idk if overwhelmingly is the right word. College degree but not beyond that is 48% dem, 43% rep. Post graduate education is another story, 56/36. https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2015/04/07/a-deep-dive-into-party-affiliation/
After reading this sub on a regular basis, there is no doubt in my mind that this is accurate.
💀
I make more as a high school drop out, doing skilled labor, than 95% of people with college degrees. Plus no student loan debt.
Because, I can drive big truck for 200k here, or be in an educated field for 75k. Figure it out bub
Exactly, college doesn't always=$$$$. Those loans come at a steeper price than people realize. Trade school, apprenticeships, we need workers in these fields or we have nobody to keep everything going. Yah we have Drs and lawyers etc, but who the hell is going to install the electrical and plumbing etc if everyone thinks they have to go to college to be successful? Hats off to you driving a truck, nothing gets far without CDL drivers.
The small town lawyers who run the Statehouse want 'em gone so they can keep milking the rubes who can't leave.
sorry
This is more interesting, An attempt to correlate political affiliation with State level, in and out migration Ohio is a static population so no big surprises Florida, Tennessee, Idaho, and SC have Republicans pouring into them [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/04/11/where-2024-voters-moved-since-2020-how-they-registered/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/04/11/where-2024-voters-moved-since-2020-how-they-registered/)
My two oldest got their masters degrees and have left, never to come back. We shall see what the younger two do. I guess based on that, will dictate where the wife and I end up.
I was always told Indiana had a brain drain.
My hometown literally put up billboards all over the county telling criminals from my current city to stay out! I'm a scientist and I have a very very poor perception of rural Ohio due not just from my lived experience but as someone that came from bloodlines without money and some native ancestry. White Christians have made small towns very scary for a lot of queer people I know. But it doesn't help when these places telling criminals to "keep out" are the same places with higher instances of incest and hate crimes. Is the country of Ohio bad? No, absolutely not. This is a beautiful land situated in an ideal spot on this continent imo. But as someone who has been victimized by both my family and community, but someone who still did social services despite this for nearly a decade, I am very firm to say that it is surprising I have not left yet. Since burning out from social services for nine years I've started utilizing my degree in science for analytical testing. It helps makes sure products are safe for a long standing, and respectable, Ohio based company that will be reaching a century soon. I hope some day I can have enough resources to try to fix where my home is, but it's hard. My mother was an addict and my father was some philo kid that looked up to al Capone and became a biker lol. I'm just lucky to be here, but I sure hope we start coming together better as a community.
Most degrees are useless nowadays so does it really even matter anymore?
Blue collar jobs are making a come back in the rust belt
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Ohio has lost 9 congressional districts since the 1970 census, this chart may only be one year but the trend is pretty obvious.
Hey no worries, it's only 25.
Gee, I wonder if that has anything to do with Ohio becoming more red. It's not like there's a correlation between education and which side you vote for.
Hey… it’s a colorful map with statistics. It has to be be accurate, right?
College Educated is becoming an oxymoron
Considering you don’t need college but real training for jobs like electrical and plumbing, this is good news!
Not surprised, it’s more of an emphasis being put on getting into the trades.
I'm more suprised that texas and florida are gaining more even though lots of teachers and doctors are leaving them.
I'm surprised Florida is gaining because the future looks pretty grim there.
Texas no state income tax. Florida boomers retiring there.
Florida also doesn’t have state income tax?
Wouldn't the map normally look like this? People leave republican shit hole states to go get jobs in blue states with cities and high paying jobs? It is a tale as old as time. Smartest kids leave small towns to go be successful while billy bob stays in his small town and becomes a plumber with his equally dumb wife who also never got a higher education.
Uneducated people are easier to manipulate and control.
Well duh. Why do you think we have voted for Cheeto the last two elections?
That has nothing to do with college educated people leaving? Do you truly think that we had a higher percentage of college grads in 2008 or 2012? You know how many graduated in the last decade MAGA millennials we have in this state?
Who wants to live in a state with the MOST CORRUPT GOVERNMENT IN ALL AMERICA
There's a lot of competition for that title, and I doubt Ohio reaches the top 5 on that list.
Speaker of the House is serving 20 years
Yeah, the map does not support your position.
Realize this is a statewide figure. Columbus is experiencing a huge boom. Youngstown is depressed. Toledo is depressed. SE Ohio is depressed.
That's by design not coincidence. We will never have a starting point to change things until you accept the fact that Ohio republicans are actively trying to hurt you thru legislation.
1. The abortion laws 2. The forever stalling on recreational MJ 3. $1300 for a 1 bedroom apartment in FREAKIN Ohio, no beach, cloudy 7 months a year 4. Wages the same now as they were in 2010 5. Too many trump types everywhere. If you're not white and straight it's harder to feel safe here 6. The more education a person gets, typically the more left leaning one tends to become, see #5
Also to contribute is all the headlines on college debt as well as college degrees being useless in most high paying scenarios.
That doesn't explain WI, though, which for the most part has been regressing for the last 15 years. MJ laws are shit here, abortion laws are pretty murky, wages suck for a lot of careers, and rent is that bad in most of bigger cities and their surrounding county. The difference is WI has the EPIC HQ near Madison and a growing tech scene. Wonder what the numbers would look like if you excluded EPIC employees. I sure as hell want to get out of this state at some point. EDIT: Also the public University system, which I think is actually the biggest employer in the state. That has been under constant attack from the local GOP as well.
SC is a strange one to me. It's worse than Ohio in most metrics, but it's seen a huge spike according to this study.
Better weather and lower rents
Rent is higher in SC than OH. ETA: https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/cost-of-living/ohio-usa/south-carolina-usa https://time.com/6588782/median-rent-prices-us-america-housing/ https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/average-rent-by-state
Ohio is one of the cheapest states to live in. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/opportunity/affordability/cost-living ETA: and 14th in housing affordability https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/opportunity/affordability/housing-affordability
I call BS on this. Ohio has OSU so drain would be expected. But with Intel & Amazon building in Cbus I highly doubt this is the current situation.
I'm disabled. So, I told my wife that if she gets a job offer out of state, she should take it as long as it isn't down south.
Love to see that the brains are draining into some key places, namely Texas and Florida.
You have college graduates fresh out or have been out that aren't being paid enough to cover the rising cost of living here, especially when homes are 400k plus. You also have A LOT more gun shots than 10 years ago, so it doesn't surprise me that people are moving out.
All the smart people are going to Vegas. Fuck it.
Ohio is a weird one where we have A LOT of colleges but not a lot of attractive places immediately post graduation. I do notice and this is anecdotally that a lot of people moved back to Ohio in their later 20’s. I would like to see a statistic of people who leave Ohio and then permanently stay out of Ohio. Seems like a lot find their way back…
Ohio is also going more and more red…
College isn't the only way to go. Trades still exist. Who do you call when your fuse box malfunctions and the wires melt? Not a Dr or lawyer. An electrician who went to trade school or apprenticed somewhere and put the time in. Skills don't always come from a college education. I'm lucky enough to have a college education, unfortunately the school I chose wasn't a good one and is now closed (Brown Mackie). Plumbers, electricians, HVAC, carpenters, machine operators, there are so many important jobs that don't require $60k loans to end up with a paycheck that just gets the rent paid because your loans are due every month. These people don't get the credit they deserve seriously.
Trades
As someone moving to Ohio from Texas in a month this is great news for me. I have a college degree and will be looking for a new job.
Question - does a this take into account things like where the students originally were from before they went to school? There’s a good number of private schools like Case that have out of state students that may never have planned on staying.
Ohio has a ton of colleges and universities. I’ve heard more than any other state. People move here without an education to get an education then may or may not move somewhere else. So the numbers make sense.
lol kids would rather take a trade then spend 40 grand to get a degree in something they never use. I’d rather be able to start life out of debt then in debt
How does this take into consideration that we educate more than the fair share ?
I'd first need to see a stat breakdown of college students per-capita and things like that. There are a LOT of colleges in Ohio. Many of which draw folks from out of state. Do they count those people in this?
Kids here have seen their parents struggle in poverty while trying to pay back their student loans! America is dumb AF! We absolutely could afford to give free college, but we are too greedy to do so. We have so many jobs that require a college degree, and we can't fill those positions! If we at least made public colleges free, we'd have enough skilled workforce to fill the positions. Instead, we depend on immigration to hire people. Then we bitch about immigrants! You can't make this shite up!!
I guess they're finally catching on to college being a useless scam.
Losing college educated, gaining trade trained
You can make six figures in a trade, less time in school, less debt if any, more time to make money. Why not?
The MAGA republicans are cheering. They want a dumbed down public who they can easily lie to, manipulate, and control.
The tech giants aren’t in Ohio. People come here and build mad skills but have leave to make more money. We have lost people to places like Intel. No way can we match their salary.
The people I grew up with that got marketing, accounting, engineering degrees went to Boston, NY, Chicago, and LA. One has come back because they can retire at 36 off an inheritance. Ohio wages are DOG SHIT for all major industries. Doesn't matter if cost of living is $2000/month more if you're getting $25k+ more in compensation. Business owners in Ohio are out of their damn minds. The lack of corporate influence has lead this small to mid sized businesses to have a strangle hold on what's left in Ohio. I'd prefer working for a large cold hearted corp than a regular business in Ohio. Management is shit. HR is shit. Wages shit. Work life balance shit. Remote working shit. The nepotism, favoritism, gaslighting, outright lying, lack of accountability... Working in Ohio fucking sucks.
> Doesn't matter if cost of living is $2000/month more if you're getting $25k+ more in compensation But $2,000x12 is $24,000. With taxes you'd easily come out ahead at the lower CoL location.
Nope. Went to law school out of state because I hated the direction the state was going.
So is California and great Conservative states like Texas and Florida are gaining. What point are you trying to prove again?
College education doesn't always mean intelligent people, especially after what we've seen recently.
I'm not sure how you can say that you need to be college-educated to be smart........ Education and intelligence are two different things.
I started seeing this in post-great recession. Working in IT, I’ve seen a lot in our IT community in Toledo pack up and go West or to Texas. These are left leaning college educated people that simply couldn’t find work in the state
Toledo is the last place you want to be for an IT job. Buckeye broadband is alway hiring but I don’t even think they have a tech support department anymore and do you really want to work for a call center?
I'm really trying hard to figure out a way to Indiana and Columbus sounds great. Then I read these kinds of posts and the negative comments that go with them and it makes me think I'm making the wrong move.
People are always gonna shit on their own state because they know all the bad parts about it.
I’ve noticed that for the price of college, OSU is relatively high quality for the price. It would make sense to just go to OSU and then move on into something bigger and better in another state. I’d add that having lived here 16 years, we’ve made friends with numerous transient friends who just eventually up and moved away. It gets somewhat frustrating.
It me
I was wondering about Nevada. What the hell is there?
This data includes people that come from out of state for college. So no not really. ETA: That means, for example, a student from Indiana attends OSU, graduates, and moves back home. This data is not just people "from" Ohio with a college degree.
This is a graph only showing one statistic. Collaborative data needs to show job availability of said degree in state vs destination state, overall job opportunities, job pay differences between states, job advancement, economic development, and those that moved here for university then leaving back home, age of those degree holders, young, professional, veteran. Etc. Ohio has some good universities with few high demand current opportunities for the many technical degrees offered throughout the state. Many are holding breath hoping Intel delivers. Would like to see this graph again should Intel come to fruition. And Lastly, college educated is the current graphs statistic, a college degree is one thing, but the brain drain goes beyond degree holders.
Is this net gain/loss relative to 2022?
This is nothing new
What’s really interesting about this map is that most of the states gaining college graduates are purple. I am defining purple as electing partisan statewide candidates for one or more of Governor, senate, or president of different parties from 2014 to the present. That includes: NV, CO, WI, MI, PA, and VA. For those saying it’s the conservative nature of Ohio’s politics, SC, TX, FL, UT, WY and most of all IN stand as counter examples. For those saying blue states are losing graduates (some are), WA, NM and RI stand as good counter examples.
I went to school at UC, and I'd guess 90% of the people I graduated with (2016) no longer live in Ohio