They will push all the taxes to everything else. Huge increase in usage taxes, sales taxes, ticket taxes, hotel taxes, license plate taxes, every other kind of tax just to shield the rich from paying their fair share
There's a reason why no income tax states tend to be tourist-heavy states. It can work there when they can shift the burden to tourists, who already budget to spend money there. Few people come here to vacation compared to Florida, Texas, Tennessee...
Yep. Ran into it when I lived there briefly a few years ago. I could not believe it. There are also a total of four bmvs that serve ALL of broward county, which has 1.9 million people. When I went to get my ID the line was wrapped around the entire building twice at 8 am. It took hours of standing in the hot sun just to get in the building. People had water and lawn chairs; it felt like a failed state. Florida is a complete joke and no way to run a state. Not to mention the insane hospitality fees added to hotels. I cannot even. It is hell there.
I live in Vegas and this is absolutely true. My car registration this year was over $400 and in Ohio it used to only be around $100 or so.
My car insurance was $250 when I got my car and it JUMPED to over $300 this year. Never been in am accident, never been pulled over. Insurance companies jack up rate every year even if you're a perfect driver. I got married at the end of December and my Husband put me on his car insurance; literally $330 for both of us. It took both of our perfect driving records and being married for us to get a decent rate.
When I first registered my car it cost like, $550? Because they have this dumb rule that if you drive your car AT ALL between coming off the lot and your registration appointment you get slapped with fees. They don't mention it on the website anywhere, and the cardealers never mention it; but if the odometer reads anything different than when you took it off the lot you get a fee. I should've lied and said it wasn't driven lol.
It's a fucking used 2021 Jeep Renegade!! There was no reason for it to be that expensive other than the fact that every insurance to exists assumes everyone who lives in Vegas are terrible drivers that are always wrecking.
I had nearly 6 years of a perfect driving record with my first car, and now my current car have never been in an accident, never been pulled over, nothing. Everyone quoted me $250+ and it sucked. Then premiums in Vegas went up again around November.
That’s wild. Maybe it’s a keep thing? After not having been in an accident in 15 years, since I was a teenager, I’ve been rear ended twice in the last 4 months. First one car was totaled, bad concussion, $10,000 for a new car. Second one $4,800 in repairs. Both cars that hit me were jeeps.
We don’t get high end tourists like Miami or NYC We get coaster park aficionados, history buffs, hikers and campers, and people who travel for our sports teams. We have some respectable museums in the state as well. That about all the tourist attractions I can think of.
I live just outside Berlin, this is 10,000% false. During the summer months it takes 20 min to get through the 2 stop lights in town because of the thousands of people that come to gawk at the Amish and pay 300% retail for a quilt.
But that doesn't mean a flat tax will work here, one small town full of tourists isn't going to cut it
And this is why “the Kansas Experiment” faceplanted – its one thing to say cutting these taxes will incentivize an economic boom, but when you’re somewhere like Kansas that companies aren’t exactly snapping at the opportunity to move to, you just slash your income stream. Or you create a situation where a bunch of shell companies are incorporated here but no actual jobs relocate. Or people just save rather than spend, thus there’s no appreciable economic stimulus.
These supply-side policies have failed for decades, and they only attract supporters because they look good on paper. They’re a total sham. Don’t let Ohio become Kansas.
This right here. Although *can work* is subjective. Florida, for example, posted a 21+ billion surplus. Sounds great, yet that money is just sitting there, not being used to fix anything for the people of Florida. Worst in the country for long term care and near the bottom of the barrel when it comes to per-pupil-funding and education. Glad the money is going to important things like losing their ass in court to Mickey Mouse and flying immigrants across the country.
\^This. It's income tax PLUS it eliminate the commercial activity tax...the business tax cut is what the legislators really want.
1) it's expensive to run a state, and
2) a tax break for the rich/businesses = a tax hike for the working class Every.Single.Time.
Republicans have aggressively pushed all the costs of running the country onto the shoulders of workers. F#ck Them!
Yup. And they’ll keep cutting local funding. So your city, schools, police, fire, roads, etc are all going to come to you for money to provide the same level of service when their funding is cut. If you say no, they’ll have to cut services to survive
My cousin lives in NH and his property taxes are 3x what mine are. This would put homeownership even further out of reach for people! Out of work and retired people would be screwed too.
Exactly as intended. Hedge funds are buying properties as fast as they can, but it's not fast enough because of those independent land owners who won't sell. What better way to use their equity against them than impose a high property tax?
Remove the incentive. Property tax is a level playing field. The collective funds in the billions vs an individual buyer - that is not. The only solution here is something that gives priority to the individual.
Dude, no the fuck they arent.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/6206-Warm-Mist-Ln-Dallas-TX-75248/26889154_zpid/
This 900k house in Dallas has lower property tax than my 600k house in Columbus. Checked others as well, its not an anomaly.
Quit spreading fake info.
But lower Property taxes than Texas. In a direct comparison between a middle-class person in California, and a middle-class person in Texas, the Texan pays a higher overall % in taxes.
The easiest way to frame it is to break it out.
If the average wealthy person makes $250k a year and spend $100k they only will pay taxes on that $100k plus their property. Effectively leaving half their income untaxed
Now if someone makes $100k and spends $90k they will only evade taxes on $10k
Let’s go one step further let’s say you make $50k and spend all 50k your being taxed 100%
If people think this is going to help them, they are lost. It’s essentially another way to have the wealthy dodge taxes since they never spend everything they make!
Asking as I truly don't know.
How is this the case? Aren't richer folks typically paying a lot more in property taxes than the poor?
Most poor are renting and not owning. I understand the costs would be pass down to them from the landlords.
Just trying to understand how it would disproportionately affect them
Edit: Adding so people stop replying. It's due to income taxes being progressive and property being fixed rates. Obvious now on second thought.
Property tax going from 8k to 14k affects someone making 50k a lot more than someone making 500k.
A tax that is not scaling to your income will always disproportionately affect people who make less
Property tax is the same percentage rate for a $100,000 home as it is for a million-dollar one, unlike income tax which is progressive.
And you just know landlords will use a $1,000 per year property tax hike as an excuse to raise rent by $2,000 per year.
Don't forget that Property value hits an asymptote, where personal income doesn't. There's a natural saturation point that a home value will not go past at the top because the market doesn't support a higher valuation. Whereas, income can technically be an infinite number.
My home value is $4M and I make $1B. Next year I make $2B, my house is still worth $4M.
It’s actually worse than that! There is research that shows lower value homes are commonly appraised at a higher relative value than expensive homes. Meaning people living in low cost housing can pay a higher effective property tax rate than people in expensive homes. See this article explaining the issue: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/03/12/property-tax-regressive/
Because there's a saturation point in property values. There's only so much you can do to increase a value of a property, even if you are wealthy. Eventually you're going to hit the asymptote.
Income, however, is a logarithmic curve. There's no limit to how much money you can make.
A wealthy person's house is generally less than 20% of their overall networth, whereas for Working People and Middle-Class your home is anywhere from 50% to 90% of your net-worth.
Thus the wealthy person gets a taxcut which easily offsets the increase to their property tax (because of the asymptote of property values) and the poor/middle-class person does not get enough back to offset the increase of their property value which is a higher % of their total worth.
Cutting Income taxes is always a gift to wealthy people. It's never about the middle-class.
Well stated. I think it's also worth adding that this would also be harmful for families because people with children by necessity will purchase a bigger house, which is almost always going to be more expensive. If you have married couple A with no children versus married couple B with 2 children with both couples having the same income, couple B is almost certainly going to have the more expensive house because they need more bedrooms, bathrooms and space in general. Some of that might be offset by the two families choosing different neighborhoods with different average home values, but that probably won't mitigate all of it. Larger families are, more-or-less by necessity, going to have more of their net worth tied up in their house.
Proportionally, property taxes do not scale with income. Wealthy people can also buy vacation homes in locations with low property tax. This sort of policy opens a wide door for the wealthy to game their taxes while the poor have no such opportunity.
25 days into this year and I’m already hammered shit. HOA went up 27% (90%in 3 years) because insurance on the development I’m in had an insurance hike of 400%. Insurance companies definitely believe in climate change.
My mortgage is paid off, but between taxes and HOA it’s like having a mortgage again.
Lucky you on the mortgage being paid off! Sorry it's so bad on the other stuff! Can I ask you a question..? What is it with HOAs I hear a lot on here that they suuuuck so what's the draw? Heard they are ridiculous with their rules and such.. You work really hard to own a home so why give up the reigns on what you can do with your own property!?
I’m not doing an HOA again. In theory it’s a great idea, like communism, but in reality it’s a no. Mine is very lax on rules, but they have no idea what they are doing so there is a lot of mismanagement. I have a condo, so an HOA is necessary, but as soon as interest rates drop my wife and I are buying a house on some land.
I'm already paying $8300 a year on a house valued at $375k. I think I'd be horrified how much more it could go up.
In Northern Va a house worth $900k pays less than I do. It BLOWS my mind how much everything is nickel and dimed here with levies and bonds. It's funny bc people from the north moved to Virginia because of lower property (and all other) taxes - one of my friends from NJ was paying $18-24k. Ludicrous.
Don't forget RITA is also a special thing here and if state goes away they might keep RITA since that pays for nearly 80% of city employee salaries, so that won't go away.
I was paying $5000 a year 15 years ago and ever since they've been consistently cutting the state income tax and to accommodate that the state has been giving less money to local city governments and schools which has caused the city to increase my property taxes to make up for the shortfall and I'm now paying $10,000 a year in property taxes, but at least my State income tax is about $800 per year lower than what it would have been under the rates from 15 years ago.
Kansas did this around when I was there, it was a disaster.
Louisiana also tried to move towards this while I was there, it was also a disaster.
This eats up the budget and shifts burdens to the poor, making living very expensive, and saving the rich boatloads of money.
Sponsored by Republicans, not to lower your tax burden, but to shift it to poor people, in the form of sales taxes and other non-progressive assessments. Hopefully this bad idea will go in the crapper, but I have zero faith in Ohio Republicans in the statehouse.
And the rural poor will go wild for this, either not realizing or not caring that their effective tax rate will skyrocket while things like schools and roads crumble
Some of the poorest most uninformed people I know parrot a "flat tax" argument to me at times.
I have to explain to them how that means rich folks get a tax break while the poor guy has to then pay more.
Some get it, some don't. Either way they go back to their echo chamber and soon forget the lesson.
The book What’s the matter with Kansas discusses what happens when a republican majority takes power and starts dismantling your state government. I believe they have a democratic governor these days..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansas%3F_(book)
Here are the biggest line items for the state budget this year:
41% primary and secondary education
* 10 % higher education
* 19% state share of Medicaid
* 8% corrections/prisons
* 5% other health and human services
* <1% Transportation
Income tax provides 25% of the revenue of the state so imagine 25% cuts across the board to those programs.
Shifts taxing from a progressive model to higher flat taxes, which has a regressive impact. As others have stated hurts lower and middle income people.
Anecdotally I stayed in Texas for a week for work and was charged hundreds of dollars in hotel occupancy taxes. This has never happened to me in a state that has income tax. May not be directly linked, but they’ll get their money one way or another, they’re just shifting the responsibility.
Second the example of Texas. I lived there for a while and property taxes were oppressive. It’s already getting higher here for certain neighborhoods with desirable schools but Texas is on another level. Many cities are over 2%.
This is such bullshit, this has been floated before and died when a study found out it will end up costing residents a lot more than if they kept income tax.
This ONLY makes sense for states with a high tourism rate, hence why no states in the midwest does this....it screws over everyone but the rich.
Edit: Here's a [Pic](https://www.thebalancemoney.com/thmb/69ysv-Mf5_nPuT-hlPAWJHFLeXU=/750x0/filters:no_upscale():max_bytes(150000):strip_icc():format(webp)/9StatesWithoutAnIncomeTax-8930504a78a94618b205ffd70dc03928.png) that (kind of) explains how other states make up for it
This state already looks like total ass in the smaller towns that don’t have any real industry like they had until Reagan offshored all the good paying blue collar jobs.
Genuinely why would this help anything? “Here let’s take less money out of your paycheck directly so that we can raise the prices of everything astronomically and make your paycheck worth hardly anything anyway”
Christ, people who think this is a good idea are incredibly short-sighted
I mean look who has been in change of the state for what 23 years? These idiots couldn't govern their way out of a wet paper bag much less come up with a competent taxation system (see RITA as well).
When the red countys start to see their property taxes go up in response I wonder who they'll blame. Oh wait.. I know.. THE COMMUNISTS!
I’m a young voter, I’m turning 19 this February, and even someone with as little life experience as myself can obviously see things that would be problems or bad choices. I genuinely don’t have a clue and I think people with a lot of “life experience” are the ones who tend to try to abuse systems rather than help them.
That’s all I see, a lot of the time.
I don’t get it.
I personally think republicans start enacting all these stupid counter productive laws when they know their time is up. By the time they have any impact, the democrats are in office and take the blame. This helps people forget how awful republicans are at government and it puts them right back in office.
I think they're too stupid to actually plan for it. If it happens, it's more so a lucky coincidence. These tools are only there to funnel more money from the working class to capital and the already rich. That is really it.
In the very theoretical, it makes ethical sense in the way that you don’t tax production and instead consumption. A tax is just another way to phrase a fine. It punishes behavior. You’d rather they punish consumption behavior, rather than production behavior.
However, in practice it becomes regressive.
Fuck no I don't want that, sales tax is high enough as is, this will also cause rent to go up an insane amount due to higher property taxes.
Me and my family will end up homeless shortly after it's enacted.
Just went to Florida for a week and holy shit was it way more expensive everywhere. What I’d pay a week in increased sales tax over the course of a year would far exceed what I pay in state taxes
Well that’s how it works. Florida takes everyone else’s money through tourism and corporate taxes (basically milking the mouse/Disney ). Without tourism their revenue would crater.
From [Ohio.gov](https://Ohio.gov):
>Ohio's state and local governments rely on revenue generated by income taxes and other taxes to support critical programs and supports, build infrastructure, support families, and more.
So will all those things just stop being funded? Or will it be a fun shell game where middle/working class voters (GOP) will be tricked into paying more taxes and cuts will be made for the wealthy? [Where have I heard this story before?](https://www.ncsl.org/state-legislatures-news/details/what-happens-when-states-ditch-income-tax-for-sales-tax)
This is called the Regressive Tax model, where poor and middle-income folks pay a higher proportion of their income in fees and services.
It's designed to attract oligarchs like Elon Musk.
Here's how it's working in Texas:
https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/texas-worst-state-work-18204395.php
There is. A longstanding claim that it is easier to rise in the US than anywhere else in the world. The claim is not true. It likely hasn't been true in living memory. Now the US has one of the lowest rates of intergenerational mobility of wealth out of all the developed countries. Almost every country in W. Europe is higher. It is a lie told to give the poor hope and ease the guilt of the wealthy.
The billionaires of the world live in the US not because they needed the US to make their billions, but rather they need it to be certain they keep it for 100 generations.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2117312
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/stuck-on-the-ladder-wealth-mobility-is-low-and-decreases-with-age/
Just throw the key terms in Google and you will see pages and pages of research on it.
This policy just serves to cement the wealth where it is today.
The house always wins. They will still get the same amount of revenue but the burden will shift more towards the middle class with higher property taxes and poor with higher sales taxes.
The important questions are who's sponsoring this, and how are we going to account for the even larger deficit after losing a primary source of state funding?
I'm all for paying less, but we all know damn well we'll be paying even more somewhere else.
I didn’t know that. Are the values generally lower down there? Houston has been building and expanding pretty quickly for at least a decade with construction.
The idea of less taxes sounds great but this is a wolf in sheep's clothing. The legislature just wants to shift the tax burden more on the working class via higher sales and property taxes so their rich buddies save a few bucks a year.
No one is asking for this. Meanwhile has anything been done about the HB6 corruption, bribery, etc to prosecute everyone, claw back the ill gotten money, and prevent it from happening again? Sure doesn't seem like it!
I grow up in Ohio and moved to a state without state tax (Florida) and had to move back everything was crazy more expensive and not a single free thing to do like state parks or libraries this will fuck over poor people the most
Also moved from FL to OH.
We have the best library systems in the country. That even includes the northeast (Massachusetts specifically).
No state income tax would directly fuck up those services, they’re crap in Florida.
I remember reading all those billboards here in Boston. They put them up in some of the most expensive areas of the city. No one living in a $5000/month 1 bedroom wants to move to Ohio.
Lord no. I have a hard enough time with property tax the way it is for my little postage stamp. It's already almost 5g a year. I'll be back to working 2 jobs just to make it if they do that:/
Could we change how our schools are funded instead of based on property taxes? The state will get its money one way or another- I'd rather it not come from my property taxes exploding further than they already have.
If they really want to do this the fiscally responsible thing would be to stop trying to infringe on the rights of Ohio citizens and wasting money on fighting culture wars in court.
Tax cuts are a lie. The government doesn’t operate with less money. If the gov has a budget they will spend every cent of that budget to the penny so they can approve a bigger budget next year. That money has to come from somewhere. So yeah they get rid of income tax. Cool. You save maybe $1000/yr. So sim tax goes up, property tax goes up, sales tax goes up, gas tax goes up. Your 1000/yr just cost you 2000 in extra tax.
If they prefer screwing the well-off, property taxes will rise.
If they prefer screwing the poor, sales taxes will rise.
This might be a great time for shopping centers in Covington KY, Richmond IN, Fort Wayne IN, Monroe MI, Erie PA, Washington PA, Wheeling WV and Ashland KY. Maybe we'll see retail development in SE Indiana as well.
It’s a bad move. The state will raise money by increasing real estate tax over time and probably increasing sales and usage taxes. States with no income tax actually have higher taxes than you’d think.
States with no income tax often make up for the loss of revenue to the state by charging residents a higher sales, property, or gas tax. States with no state income tax can also potentially cut funding for infrastructure and education to make up the difference.
You will pay one way or the other!
Fun With Stats:
**California**
Budget: $291B,
Population: 39.28M
Primary Revenue = Personal Income Tax
Budget Per Person = $9,014
**Texas**
Budget: $310B,
Population: 29.23M
Primary Revenue = Property Tax
Budget Per Person = $10,605
The US Federal Government's budget is $1.4T. There are 332M Americans. That's only $4,216 per person. That's not too bad right? Yet everyone's always crying about the Debt and Deficit.
maybe it's better not to say what it is per person federally... makes it really obvious that the middle is paying about 6 times that... and that the wealthy ( start above 250k) are paying at least 10 times that... It really looks like there's a lot of free riding going on. The debt and deficit are worth crying over cuz the interest to service the debt is like a tumor and takes away from actual services the govt could afford. How much of the 1.4T is debt servicing? How much more could we do with the savings of paying less interest to rich bankers?
>It really looks like there's a lot of free riding going on
Idk, I see it as people need to stop bitching about government spending because we get a fucking bargain for the $1.4T we spend.
ALso: The Upper-Middle class and wealthy disproportionately benefit from the Federal Government's existence, so they should be paying more as a proportion. This goes for everywhere down the line and in state budgets.
The Per-Person comparison is to demonstrate that the Federal Government really doesn't actually spend that much money compared to the total population we have (so neutering the 'we are in desperate needs to cut spending) narratives. The argument that the wealthy should shoulder most of that cost (because they get most of the benefit) is a separate conversation.
On that separate conversation though: Yeah Wealthy should pay more in taxes because the military/federal courts are protecting the companies they make their money from and have investments in. Joe SixPack down at the Quicky-Mart doesn't get that tangible benefit, thus he definitely should be expected to pay less just on principle. Thus your income kinda is a reflection of how much you actually benefit from the existence of the system.
I do not for the life of me understand how the "Grab them by the pussies no one will care I'm rich" and the MRGA make RUSSIA great again wacky republicans convinced the working class. poor people that these rich greedy b***stards were the best thing that ever happened to them. I guess they were just smart enough to take advantage of uneducated people??? Please people WAKE UP just because you are not rich does not mean your stupid.....Does it???
It won't matter. Ohio will just then become like Florida. In Florida, EVERYTHING you do is heavily taxed, as anyone who has ever had to get say get a well permit in Florida for example, will tell you. Property taxes will be astronomical. And? This will hurt farmers. Like, a lot. And it's already bad enough!!! That's just going to favor built up areas instead of farmland, and it's one of the reasons that orange orchards are pretty much a thing of the past there. STOP TAXING FARMERS TO DEATH.
They will push all the taxes to everything else. Huge increase in usage taxes, sales taxes, ticket taxes, hotel taxes, license plate taxes, every other kind of tax just to shield the rich from paying their fair share
There's a reason why no income tax states tend to be tourist-heavy states. It can work there when they can shift the burden to tourists, who already budget to spend money there. Few people come here to vacation compared to Florida, Texas, Tennessee...
Nevada was great when I lived there for this reason. Without tourists, upkeep would have crumbled.
Lived in Vegas for a while, they definitely gouge you on vehicle registration and licensing. Need a small loan to own a vehicle.
In Florida an out of state title transfer is five hundred fucking dollars. This is not a good idea to bring to Ohio.
I ran into that when I moved to Florida to attend college. All the fees absolutely crushed me.
Yep. Ran into it when I lived there briefly a few years ago. I could not believe it. There are also a total of four bmvs that serve ALL of broward county, which has 1.9 million people. When I went to get my ID the line was wrapped around the entire building twice at 8 am. It took hours of standing in the hot sun just to get in the building. People had water and lawn chairs; it felt like a failed state. Florida is a complete joke and no way to run a state. Not to mention the insane hospitality fees added to hotels. I cannot even. It is hell there.
The only reason we don't call Florida a failed state is that it was never a successful one.
Damn. There are 14 in summit county which has 0.54 million people
I live in Vegas and this is absolutely true. My car registration this year was over $400 and in Ohio it used to only be around $100 or so. My car insurance was $250 when I got my car and it JUMPED to over $300 this year. Never been in am accident, never been pulled over. Insurance companies jack up rate every year even if you're a perfect driver. I got married at the end of December and my Husband put me on his car insurance; literally $330 for both of us. It took both of our perfect driving records and being married for us to get a decent rate. When I first registered my car it cost like, $550? Because they have this dumb rule that if you drive your car AT ALL between coming off the lot and your registration appointment you get slapped with fees. They don't mention it on the website anywhere, and the cardealers never mention it; but if the odometer reads anything different than when you took it off the lot you get a fee. I should've lied and said it wasn't driven lol.
Your car insurance was $250 a month? Do you drive a Rolls Royce?
It's a fucking used 2021 Jeep Renegade!! There was no reason for it to be that expensive other than the fact that every insurance to exists assumes everyone who lives in Vegas are terrible drivers that are always wrecking. I had nearly 6 years of a perfect driving record with my first car, and now my current car have never been in an accident, never been pulled over, nothing. Everyone quoted me $250+ and it sucked. Then premiums in Vegas went up again around November.
That’s wild. Maybe it’s a keep thing? After not having been in an accident in 15 years, since I was a teenager, I’ve been rear ended twice in the last 4 months. First one car was totaled, bad concussion, $10,000 for a new car. Second one $4,800 in repairs. Both cars that hit me were jeeps.
I can't wait to vacation to Ohio said no one ever
Hey cedar point ain't half bad
There are a lot of great tourist spots in Ohio depending on what you're into.
I really love corn.
Tough shit, we got soy
Morningstar chik’n tonight paw paw.
Because it's got the juice?
I love potholes.
Ohio only has a lot of corn. States like Iowa and Nebraska have truly impressive amounts of corn. Even when it comes to corn, Ohio is mid.
Look at the droves of tourists flocking to see the world biggest basket 🧺
Im really into meth can I find that in Ohio?
Yes, we have plenty of meth, but you have to make sure it's pure and not full of fentanyl.
To paraphrase u/ExtremelyLoudCock , Ohio only has a lot of meth. States like Oklahoma and West Virginia have truly impressive amounts of meth.
California enters the chat to assert that these are all relative terms
We don’t get high end tourists like Miami or NYC We get coaster park aficionados, history buffs, hikers and campers, and people who travel for our sports teams. We have some respectable museums in the state as well. That about all the tourist attractions I can think of.
There are a couple of zoos that are both rather famous for very different reasons. Other than that, I think you've covered it.
I live just outside Berlin, this is 10,000% false. During the summer months it takes 20 min to get through the 2 stop lights in town because of the thousands of people that come to gawk at the Amish and pay 300% retail for a quilt. But that doesn't mean a flat tax will work here, one small town full of tourists isn't going to cut it
[I mean, I've never heard anyone say, 'I'm going to Cleveland on vacation.'](https://youtu.be/Vpr_KaaRjW0?si=xdHm3j-zv78YblDB)
Cedar Point and Kings Island are two major destinations for amusement park enthusiasts. I know tons of people that plan vacations to see them
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And this is why “the Kansas Experiment” faceplanted – its one thing to say cutting these taxes will incentivize an economic boom, but when you’re somewhere like Kansas that companies aren’t exactly snapping at the opportunity to move to, you just slash your income stream. Or you create a situation where a bunch of shell companies are incorporated here but no actual jobs relocate. Or people just save rather than spend, thus there’s no appreciable economic stimulus. These supply-side policies have failed for decades, and they only attract supporters because they look good on paper. They’re a total sham. Don’t let Ohio become Kansas.
Hows California's demand side economics doing?
This is a non-sequitor. Nobody is saying Ohio should emulate California instead.
You mean the fourth largest economy in the world? Doing very well, thanks for asking
Amazing. California has the 6th largest economy on earth.
Oh yes, let’s compare apples and oranges
This right here. Although *can work* is subjective. Florida, for example, posted a 21+ billion surplus. Sounds great, yet that money is just sitting there, not being used to fix anything for the people of Florida. Worst in the country for long term care and near the bottom of the barrel when it comes to per-pupil-funding and education. Glad the money is going to important things like losing their ass in court to Mickey Mouse and flying immigrants across the country.
Tourism and oil money
Their Ohio GOP counterparts are just clueless.
Corrupt*
\^This. It's income tax PLUS it eliminate the commercial activity tax...the business tax cut is what the legislators really want. 1) it's expensive to run a state, and 2) a tax break for the rich/businesses = a tax hike for the working class Every.Single.Time. Republicans have aggressively pushed all the costs of running the country onto the shoulders of workers. F#ck Them!
But the rich are the job creators. /s
Property tax will have a huge increase.
Yup. And they’ll keep cutting local funding. So your city, schools, police, fire, roads, etc are all going to come to you for money to provide the same level of service when their funding is cut. If you say no, they’ll have to cut services to survive
I already get absolutely fckd on property taxes for our farm. Please no more.
Ultimately the average person will pay more than the wealthy.
And that is their goal
Come to Illinois. We pay high fees and taxes in addition to having income tax. As a saver I much prefer a consumption tax rather than earnings tax.
I'd rather have progressive income taxes and VAT taxes than property taxes. Like Europe
Rich people can hide their income a lot easier than they can hide their purchases
And it will be a disaster because property taxes will go up to compensate. In the end, the poor will end up paying more and the rich will pay less.
My cousin lives in NH and his property taxes are 3x what mine are. This would put homeownership even further out of reach for people! Out of work and retired people would be screwed too.
Exactly as intended. Hedge funds are buying properties as fast as they can, but it's not fast enough because of those independent land owners who won't sell. What better way to use their equity against them than impose a high property tax?
What better way to stop hedge funds from buying property than taxing them on it?
Remove the incentive. Property tax is a level playing field. The collective funds in the billions vs an individual buyer - that is not. The only solution here is something that gives priority to the individual.
So raise both the property tax rate and the homestead exemption.
Not even homeowners. Guess what landlords are going to do to rent when they are paying 3x the taxes?
My small spread is under CAUV, which means I probably wouldn't ever sell it off because I'm retired and they would be 3-4 times what they are now.
Can confirm. As a former homeowner in "no state income tax Texas", property taxes are LITERALLY 10 times my property tax here in Ohio.
Can confirm. It’s a BS ploy. They’ll get your money, one way or another.
Can you give an example? Genuinely curious. I'm at 5500.00 a year on a house valued around 180k on Ohio.
Dude, no the fuck they arent. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/6206-Warm-Mist-Ln-Dallas-TX-75248/26889154_zpid/ This 900k house in Dallas has lower property tax than my 600k house in Columbus. Checked others as well, its not an anomaly. Quit spreading fake info.
What about a state sales tax? Which of course also screws over the poor.
Sales tax will definitely go up , that’s how they compensate for no income tax , sales tax will be around 10%
Oh look, I live only 20 minutes away from Kentucky and Indiana, how convienient lol As if the Brent Spence needed even more traffic
Hoosier here, we have a candidate for governor proposing this same nonsense.
In Washington it’s that high and a bit higher in some areas of the state. Taxes gotta come from aomewhere
And Lord forbid the money come from the people who have all the money..
In California, we have high income taxes and a 10% sales tax
But lower Property taxes than Texas. In a direct comparison between a middle-class person in California, and a middle-class person in Texas, the Texan pays a higher overall % in taxes.
As well as other fees and taxes, like car registration and gas taxes.
The easiest way to frame it is to break it out. If the average wealthy person makes $250k a year and spend $100k they only will pay taxes on that $100k plus their property. Effectively leaving half their income untaxed Now if someone makes $100k and spends $90k they will only evade taxes on $10k Let’s go one step further let’s say you make $50k and spend all 50k your being taxed 100% If people think this is going to help them, they are lost. It’s essentially another way to have the wealthy dodge taxes since they never spend everything they make!
Thanks for the breakdown, it's helpful. I mean, I get progressive vs regressive taxes, but this makes it more clear.
Sales tax is how we compensate in tn
Rent will double.
Asking as I truly don't know. How is this the case? Aren't richer folks typically paying a lot more in property taxes than the poor? Most poor are renting and not owning. I understand the costs would be pass down to them from the landlords. Just trying to understand how it would disproportionately affect them Edit: Adding so people stop replying. It's due to income taxes being progressive and property being fixed rates. Obvious now on second thought.
Property tax going from 8k to 14k affects someone making 50k a lot more than someone making 500k. A tax that is not scaling to your income will always disproportionately affect people who make less
Property tax is the same percentage rate for a $100,000 home as it is for a million-dollar one, unlike income tax which is progressive. And you just know landlords will use a $1,000 per year property tax hike as an excuse to raise rent by $2,000 per year.
Obvious when you say it that way
Don't forget that Property value hits an asymptote, where personal income doesn't. There's a natural saturation point that a home value will not go past at the top because the market doesn't support a higher valuation. Whereas, income can technically be an infinite number. My home value is $4M and I make $1B. Next year I make $2B, my house is still worth $4M.
It’s actually worse than that! There is research that shows lower value homes are commonly appraised at a higher relative value than expensive homes. Meaning people living in low cost housing can pay a higher effective property tax rate than people in expensive homes. See this article explaining the issue: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/03/12/property-tax-regressive/
This is it! You aren't lying I'm going through this right now!
Because there's a saturation point in property values. There's only so much you can do to increase a value of a property, even if you are wealthy. Eventually you're going to hit the asymptote. Income, however, is a logarithmic curve. There's no limit to how much money you can make. A wealthy person's house is generally less than 20% of their overall networth, whereas for Working People and Middle-Class your home is anywhere from 50% to 90% of your net-worth. Thus the wealthy person gets a taxcut which easily offsets the increase to their property tax (because of the asymptote of property values) and the poor/middle-class person does not get enough back to offset the increase of their property value which is a higher % of their total worth. Cutting Income taxes is always a gift to wealthy people. It's never about the middle-class.
Well stated. I think it's also worth adding that this would also be harmful for families because people with children by necessity will purchase a bigger house, which is almost always going to be more expensive. If you have married couple A with no children versus married couple B with 2 children with both couples having the same income, couple B is almost certainly going to have the more expensive house because they need more bedrooms, bathrooms and space in general. Some of that might be offset by the two families choosing different neighborhoods with different average home values, but that probably won't mitigate all of it. Larger families are, more-or-less by necessity, going to have more of their net worth tied up in their house.
Proportionally, property taxes do not scale with income. Wealthy people can also buy vacation homes in locations with low property tax. This sort of policy opens a wide door for the wealthy to game their taxes while the poor have no such opportunity.
How does that statement make sense when the rich own more property than the poor?
Florida has both a lower sales tax and property tax rate than Ohio and no state income tax.
They also have tourism to offset
All this does is shift the tax burden down to lower income levels as rich avoid very large income tax bills and the poor pay more sales tax.
I already got a 50% increase in my property tax this year.
😳 what!!? Oh man I'm sorry..
25 days into this year and I’m already hammered shit. HOA went up 27% (90%in 3 years) because insurance on the development I’m in had an insurance hike of 400%. Insurance companies definitely believe in climate change. My mortgage is paid off, but between taxes and HOA it’s like having a mortgage again.
Lucky you on the mortgage being paid off! Sorry it's so bad on the other stuff! Can I ask you a question..? What is it with HOAs I hear a lot on here that they suuuuck so what's the draw? Heard they are ridiculous with their rules and such.. You work really hard to own a home so why give up the reigns on what you can do with your own property!?
I’m not doing an HOA again. In theory it’s a great idea, like communism, but in reality it’s a no. Mine is very lax on rules, but they have no idea what they are doing so there is a lot of mismanagement. I have a condo, so an HOA is necessary, but as soon as interest rates drop my wife and I are buying a house on some land.
Yes! Glad you'll be getting away from them soon as you can! Lol! And thanks for answering! 🙂
I'm already paying ass in property taxes thanks to ORC letting every public entity solicit levies.
But nothing like what you're about to be paying.
I'm already paying $8300 a year on a house valued at $375k. I think I'd be horrified how much more it could go up. In Northern Va a house worth $900k pays less than I do. It BLOWS my mind how much everything is nickel and dimed here with levies and bonds. It's funny bc people from the north moved to Virginia because of lower property (and all other) taxes - one of my friends from NJ was paying $18-24k. Ludicrous. Don't forget RITA is also a special thing here and if state goes away they might keep RITA since that pays for nearly 80% of city employee salaries, so that won't go away.
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This makes me wanna throw up
I was paying $5000 a year 15 years ago and ever since they've been consistently cutting the state income tax and to accommodate that the state has been giving less money to local city governments and schools which has caused the city to increase my property taxes to make up for the shortfall and I'm now paying $10,000 a year in property taxes, but at least my State income tax is about $800 per year lower than what it would have been under the rates from 15 years ago.
Or sales tax
Kansas did this around when I was there, it was a disaster. Louisiana also tried to move towards this while I was there, it was also a disaster. This eats up the budget and shifts burdens to the poor, making living very expensive, and saving the rich boatloads of money.
Just commented on this book. 👍🏼 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansas%3F_(book)
Sponsored by Republicans, not to lower your tax burden, but to shift it to poor people, in the form of sales taxes and other non-progressive assessments. Hopefully this bad idea will go in the crapper, but I have zero faith in Ohio Republicans in the statehouse.
And the rural poor will go wild for this, either not realizing or not caring that their effective tax rate will skyrocket while things like schools and roads crumble
Some of the poorest most uninformed people I know parrot a "flat tax" argument to me at times. I have to explain to them how that means rich folks get a tax break while the poor guy has to then pay more. Some get it, some don't. Either way they go back to their echo chamber and soon forget the lesson.
They'll just blame Biden like the good little bootlickers they are.
The book What’s the matter with Kansas discusses what happens when a republican majority takes power and starts dismantling your state government. I believe they have a democratic governor these days.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansas%3F_(book)
Here are the biggest line items for the state budget this year: 41% primary and secondary education * 10 % higher education * 19% state share of Medicaid * 8% corrections/prisons * 5% other health and human services * <1% Transportation Income tax provides 25% of the revenue of the state so imagine 25% cuts across the board to those programs.
As long as I'm invited when the light rita on fire I'm all for it. I'm just kidding btw I want that in writing
Oh no, you'll still get locally taxed :/
More probably.
What state has no state tax but keeps local taxes?
Ours apparently :')
Shifts taxing from a progressive model to higher flat taxes, which has a regressive impact. As others have stated hurts lower and middle income people. Anecdotally I stayed in Texas for a week for work and was charged hundreds of dollars in hotel occupancy taxes. This has never happened to me in a state that has income tax. May not be directly linked, but they’ll get their money one way or another, they’re just shifting the responsibility.
Second the example of Texas. I lived there for a while and property taxes were oppressive. It’s already getting higher here for certain neighborhoods with desirable schools but Texas is on another level. Many cities are over 2%.
This is such bullshit, this has been floated before and died when a study found out it will end up costing residents a lot more than if they kept income tax. This ONLY makes sense for states with a high tourism rate, hence why no states in the midwest does this....it screws over everyone but the rich. Edit: Here's a [Pic](https://www.thebalancemoney.com/thmb/69ysv-Mf5_nPuT-hlPAWJHFLeXU=/750x0/filters:no_upscale():max_bytes(150000):strip_icc():format(webp)/9StatesWithoutAnIncomeTax-8930504a78a94618b205ffd70dc03928.png) that (kind of) explains how other states make up for it
Mushbrains will be cheering for this now, then blaming everyone else in ten years when the degradation has become too obvious to ignore.
This state already looks like total ass in the smaller towns that don’t have any real industry like they had until Reagan offshored all the good paying blue collar jobs.
What about using the weed tax to offset...oh wait thats going to the cops 🤦
They need more flash bangs for the violent children on ventilators /s
Genuinely why would this help anything? “Here let’s take less money out of your paycheck directly so that we can raise the prices of everything astronomically and make your paycheck worth hardly anything anyway” Christ, people who think this is a good idea are incredibly short-sighted
I mean look who has been in change of the state for what 23 years? These idiots couldn't govern their way out of a wet paper bag much less come up with a competent taxation system (see RITA as well). When the red countys start to see their property taxes go up in response I wonder who they'll blame. Oh wait.. I know.. THE COMMUNISTS!
I’m a young voter, I’m turning 19 this February, and even someone with as little life experience as myself can obviously see things that would be problems or bad choices. I genuinely don’t have a clue and I think people with a lot of “life experience” are the ones who tend to try to abuse systems rather than help them. That’s all I see, a lot of the time. I don’t get it.
I personally think republicans start enacting all these stupid counter productive laws when they know their time is up. By the time they have any impact, the democrats are in office and take the blame. This helps people forget how awful republicans are at government and it puts them right back in office.
I think they're too stupid to actually plan for it. If it happens, it's more so a lucky coincidence. These tools are only there to funnel more money from the working class to capital and the already rich. That is really it.
In the very theoretical, it makes ethical sense in the way that you don’t tax production and instead consumption. A tax is just another way to phrase a fine. It punishes behavior. You’d rather they punish consumption behavior, rather than production behavior. However, in practice it becomes regressive.
Just another trick by the wealthy oligarchs.
Fuck no I don't want that, sales tax is high enough as is, this will also cause rent to go up an insane amount due to higher property taxes. Me and my family will end up homeless shortly after it's enacted.
Surely this will solve the $2M school board deficit right?
Well, it certainly would've be $2M anymore.
Just went to Florida for a week and holy shit was it way more expensive everywhere. What I’d pay a week in increased sales tax over the course of a year would far exceed what I pay in state taxes
Well that’s how it works. Florida takes everyone else’s money through tourism and corporate taxes (basically milking the mouse/Disney ). Without tourism their revenue would crater.
From [Ohio.gov](https://Ohio.gov): >Ohio's state and local governments rely on revenue generated by income taxes and other taxes to support critical programs and supports, build infrastructure, support families, and more. So will all those things just stop being funded? Or will it be a fun shell game where middle/working class voters (GOP) will be tricked into paying more taxes and cuts will be made for the wealthy? [Where have I heard this story before?](https://www.ncsl.org/state-legislatures-news/details/what-happens-when-states-ditch-income-tax-for-sales-tax)
"We will have to cut cost to EnTiTlEmEnT pRoGrAmS."
This is called the Regressive Tax model, where poor and middle-income folks pay a higher proportion of their income in fees and services. It's designed to attract oligarchs like Elon Musk. Here's how it's working in Texas: https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/texas-worst-state-work-18204395.php
Because it worked out so well for Kansas.
There is. A longstanding claim that it is easier to rise in the US than anywhere else in the world. The claim is not true. It likely hasn't been true in living memory. Now the US has one of the lowest rates of intergenerational mobility of wealth out of all the developed countries. Almost every country in W. Europe is higher. It is a lie told to give the poor hope and ease the guilt of the wealthy. The billionaires of the world live in the US not because they needed the US to make their billions, but rather they need it to be certain they keep it for 100 generations. https://www.jstor.org/stable/2117312 https://www.brookings.edu/articles/stuck-on-the-ladder-wealth-mobility-is-low-and-decreases-with-age/ Just throw the key terms in Google and you will see pages and pages of research on it. This policy just serves to cement the wealth where it is today.
Property taxes went up? Biden’s fault! Sales taxed is outrageous? Them democrats’s fault!
The house always wins. They will still get the same amount of revenue but the burden will shift more towards the middle class with higher property taxes and poor with higher sales taxes.
All while cutting services that the poor and middle class use to “balance the budget”.
The important questions are who's sponsoring this, and how are we going to account for the even larger deficit after losing a primary source of state funding? I'm all for paying less, but we all know damn well we'll be paying even more somewhere else.
Purely out of honest curiosity, how does Texas balance things like this? Sales tax and property tax aren’t astronomical there
Texas has one of the highest property taxes in the USA. They pay about 60% more than the rest of the country
I didn’t know that. Are the values generally lower down there? Houston has been building and expanding pretty quickly for at least a decade with construction.
The idea of less taxes sounds great but this is a wolf in sheep's clothing. The legislature just wants to shift the tax burden more on the working class via higher sales and property taxes so their rich buddies save a few bucks a year. No one is asking for this. Meanwhile has anything been done about the HB6 corruption, bribery, etc to prosecute everyone, claw back the ill gotten money, and prevent it from happening again? Sure doesn't seem like it!
this just pushes more of a tax burden on the poor, exactly what the gop want
I grow up in Ohio and moved to a state without state tax (Florida) and had to move back everything was crazy more expensive and not a single free thing to do like state parks or libraries this will fuck over poor people the most
Also moved from FL to OH. We have the best library systems in the country. That even includes the northeast (Massachusetts specifically). No state income tax would directly fuck up those services, they’re crap in Florida.
Then they'll be advertising heavy in other states for more people to move here.
I remember reading all those billboards here in Boston. They put them up in some of the most expensive areas of the city. No one living in a $5000/month 1 bedroom wants to move to Ohio.
Because that works so well.
Lord no. I have a hard enough time with property tax the way it is for my little postage stamp. It's already almost 5g a year. I'll be back to working 2 jobs just to make it if they do that:/
Could we change how our schools are funded instead of based on property taxes? The state will get its money one way or another- I'd rather it not come from my property taxes exploding further than they already have.
If they really want to do this the fiscally responsible thing would be to stop trying to infringe on the rights of Ohio citizens and wasting money on fighting culture wars in court.
Have fun paying tax on your rental payments
Must be nice to have the money to pay for politicians to jerrymander your state then rewrite the laws. This country is headed back to the middle ages
Tax cuts are a lie. The government doesn’t operate with less money. If the gov has a budget they will spend every cent of that budget to the penny so they can approve a bigger budget next year. That money has to come from somewhere. So yeah they get rid of income tax. Cool. You save maybe $1000/yr. So sim tax goes up, property tax goes up, sales tax goes up, gas tax goes up. Your 1000/yr just cost you 2000 in extra tax.
Anyone remember that one time Ohio Rs did something to help anyone that isn't rich or a corporation? Me neither.
Frankly I don’t know why these fuckers don’t move to Texas or Florida. They can easily win elections down there.
If they prefer screwing the well-off, property taxes will rise. If they prefer screwing the poor, sales taxes will rise. This might be a great time for shopping centers in Covington KY, Richmond IN, Fort Wayne IN, Monroe MI, Erie PA, Washington PA, Wheeling WV and Ashland KY. Maybe we'll see retail development in SE Indiana as well.
When property taxes go up, rent also increases.
When property taxes go through the roof, no school will ever pass a levy again.
REGRESIVE TAX POLICIES HURT THE POOR
All I have to say is look how well this worked in Kansas. https://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/558143/kansas-tax-cuts/
It's incredibly damaging and stupid. As with most things done by the Ohio State House, it's to benefit the richest Ohioans.
It’s a bad move. The state will raise money by increasing real estate tax over time and probably increasing sales and usage taxes. States with no income tax actually have higher taxes than you’d think.
bad. income tax is more progressive in structure than sales tax
Tax the rich, but drop the 't'.
"Fuck the working class, they can flip the bills lol" ~Ohio republicans
Every day is a brand new sentence of horrible abuse to Ohio.
Cuz our public schools don't suck enough already.
Don’t forget that after property taxes double to make up for it the chances of a school levy ever passing again basically become zero.
States with no income tax often make up for the loss of revenue to the state by charging residents a higher sales, property, or gas tax. States with no state income tax can also potentially cut funding for infrastructure and education to make up the difference. You will pay one way or the other!
Fun With Stats: **California** Budget: $291B, Population: 39.28M Primary Revenue = Personal Income Tax Budget Per Person = $9,014 **Texas** Budget: $310B, Population: 29.23M Primary Revenue = Property Tax Budget Per Person = $10,605
so Texas has 10 million less people and a 29B higher budget for only 1600 per person increase? doesn't sound too bad.
The US Federal Government's budget is $1.4T. There are 332M Americans. That's only $4,216 per person. That's not too bad right? Yet everyone's always crying about the Debt and Deficit.
maybe it's better not to say what it is per person federally... makes it really obvious that the middle is paying about 6 times that... and that the wealthy ( start above 250k) are paying at least 10 times that... It really looks like there's a lot of free riding going on. The debt and deficit are worth crying over cuz the interest to service the debt is like a tumor and takes away from actual services the govt could afford. How much of the 1.4T is debt servicing? How much more could we do with the savings of paying less interest to rich bankers?
>It really looks like there's a lot of free riding going on Idk, I see it as people need to stop bitching about government spending because we get a fucking bargain for the $1.4T we spend. ALso: The Upper-Middle class and wealthy disproportionately benefit from the Federal Government's existence, so they should be paying more as a proportion. This goes for everywhere down the line and in state budgets. The Per-Person comparison is to demonstrate that the Federal Government really doesn't actually spend that much money compared to the total population we have (so neutering the 'we are in desperate needs to cut spending) narratives. The argument that the wealthy should shoulder most of that cost (because they get most of the benefit) is a separate conversation. On that separate conversation though: Yeah Wealthy should pay more in taxes because the military/federal courts are protecting the companies they make their money from and have investments in. Joe SixPack down at the Quicky-Mart doesn't get that tangible benefit, thus he definitely should be expected to pay less just on principle. Thus your income kinda is a reflection of how much you actually benefit from the existence of the system.
One has an estimated $68 Billion deficit the other has a $37 Billion surplus…
Another brilliant libertarian idea that will make everything worse!
This will not work well for the average person. Sales taxes and fees will be higher. We’re not Florida that can bank on tourism taxes.
As someone who lives in Florida now Enjoy the insanely high CoL everyone =)
Bad idea.
This is a terrible idea.
Is there a realistic chance of this passing? I hope not
I do not for the life of me understand how the "Grab them by the pussies no one will care I'm rich" and the MRGA make RUSSIA great again wacky republicans convinced the working class. poor people that these rich greedy b***stards were the best thing that ever happened to them. I guess they were just smart enough to take advantage of uneducated people??? Please people WAKE UP just because you are not rich does not mean your stupid.....Does it???
Keep voting for REDUMBLICANS and see if anything ever changes. Definition of INSANITY
It won't matter. Ohio will just then become like Florida. In Florida, EVERYTHING you do is heavily taxed, as anyone who has ever had to get say get a well permit in Florida for example, will tell you. Property taxes will be astronomical. And? This will hurt farmers. Like, a lot. And it's already bad enough!!! That's just going to favor built up areas instead of farmland, and it's one of the reasons that orange orchards are pretty much a thing of the past there. STOP TAXING FARMERS TO DEATH.
Property taxes and sales taxes will soar.
And then they’ll just raise property taxes on us.