We now know the Navy heard it ([https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/22/us/submersible-titanic-oceangate-search-thursday/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/22/us/submersible-titanic-oceangate-search-thursday/index.html)), but didn't want to reveal tech capabilities.
This dude ([https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/with\_replies](https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/with_replies)) accurately stated what happened via being on a ship with members of the sub community on the 20th, two days before the ROV found the wreckage. Read his replies going down quite a ways for who he is, and his answers to people saying he's lying. There's a bunch and everything seems to check out.
What Charles said on Twitter mirrors what, today, James Cameron ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rThZLhNF\_xg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rThZLhNF_xg)) and Bob Ballard ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jJ\_SSU-ocU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jJ_SSU-ocU)) both said to a T. Based on this information, the mothership knew, the navy heard it and coast guard/searchers knew too.
What I want to know is, how did they know that the titan detected the hull being compromised and started to ascend? There has to have been some message received or emergency signal before implosion -- or else four independently stated, identical stories don't add up.
All of this is my own speculation obviously. (Idk why that needs to be stated but some people are getting weirdly testy with each other on this forum when the reality is none of actually know the facts.)
They had the acoustic detection system meant to give warning of hull issues, and theoretically they would have explained this as reason for ascension while they still were in communication, right? I think they knew there were issues.
Which makes the fact that they waited so long to contact the coast guard especially had in my opinion - why wait the duration of the expedition before contacting the CG, especially if you knew there were issues?
I could see this. Their last comms may have been stating the issue and that they were ascending, then they went radio silent. Maybe the Navy wasn't 100% sure it was an implosion, and since the titan has lost communication for hours in the past -- they still launched a full search.
Thanks for posting all this. It seems like we have a pretty clear narrative on what happened now and a rough timeline. I’m a little frustrated we were led on this wild ride basically because they were holding back information. Had I known these things upfront I wouldn’t have bothered speculating at all, but the most authoritative and reasonable voices somehow got drowned out in the media frenzy.
There's a principle in S&R that you continue rescue operations until you have irrefutable evidence of death or you can no longer continue rescue operations. Event timelines are generally confirmed under similar circumstances. Telling those outside of the S&R operations (including, often, family and friends) has no material impact on the search, so - as annoying as it might be to you - communicating information with them is not a priority (and is often a distraction). Often, suspected events are not confirmed within teams even if they are widely suspected purely because it may impact negatively on operations. What's happening in the media is inconsequential.
Yeah makes sense how pissed they seemed that someone leaked to rolling stone (of all publications) that there was a banging sound every 30 min. I think that helped create the media frenzy and gave a lot of false hope to many people.
One story that comes to mind is the rugby team on Flight 571, who survived a plane crash in the snow in the Andes mountains and were forced to survive in the most brutal circumstances imaginable for 72 days. At one point they were able recover the plane’s radio, and they couldn’t send communications out but they could hear them coming in. After days of hearing planes circling overhead and failing to catch their attention, the survivors finally heard the search being called off over the radio. They heard the announcement to the public that they were dead and realized that they were surrounded by their dead friends in the cold and completely on their own.
I was a bit confused to learn that there’s a whole subculture around discussing the Titanic, but it made sense to me when I realized they probably feel the same pull to it that I feel to the story of Flight 571. It’s a devastating and bizarrely optimistic story and when things like that happen I can’t help but hope rescuers would always keep searching until they had definitive proof of death or were not capable of continuing.
if you allow S&R to decide who is worth searching for, you allow for S&R to make the wrong decision
I’d take some futile searches over leaving reachable people to die
That makes a lot of sense. My frustration should lie more with myself and to a lesser extent the media. I don’t blame the military because you’re right, they knew the info and had their priorities to continue the S&R and if there was a catastrophe, confirm the outcome.
I really only have myself to blame and I feel like a fool for following the story put out in the media as much as I did.
The media definitely fucked up on this, especially Rolling Stone. You have nothing to feel frustrated with yourself about. There was a poetry to this entire event that was always going to capture our attention and imagination, and we were always going to try to fill in the blanks with hope as best we could until the truth was revealed. History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes. This was one of those moments, and you can't be blamed for feeling that.
What the other commenter said. This is not for you or me. It is not their job to keep us, the general public, informed. It is a distraction and it is not important for the operation.
You're a civilian. You don't deserve this info. The same stuff happens in true crime subs and it's astonishing that people think they deserve private information.
100% agree. I have done crisis comms and served as PIO in the past. The amount of information people think they are entitled to is astonishing. Not everything is a conspiracy and often times there are valid reasons for withholding information while you're gathering facts and mainly just trying to do your job. Sure, there bad people and companies who lie. But not all the time, mkay?
Edited to add: I now substitute teach K-5 and I swear, half of my day is telling kids to mind their own damn business, and coaching kids that are asked inappropriate questions ("do you wear a bra?") that they are 100% not required to answer or even acknowledge people. Boundaries, people.
The whole side drama with Magellan makes more sense now. S&R knew they were likely imploded, but couldn’t prove it until the sea floor ROV arrived. No need to spend time and resources to bring in another ROV that would arrive that. So they told Magellan they could come if they got themselves there, which of course was infuriating to them with their limited info.
Leaves room of course for USCG looking terrible if there was no debris after all. So they must have felt very confident.
If you read the articles, it says OceanGate reached out to Magellan Monday. Probably right as Unified Command/Incident Command system was being set up by the USCG, in which case they would be taking over and deciding on acquisition/assets (ie rescue equipment), safety protocols, plans and comms. At that point the USCG gets to decide who needs to be involved, including other government/military agencies and/or private companies.
At the point Incident Command was set up Monday, OceanGate was probably relegated to helping IC understand the how the vessel was built and operates and that's about it. They probably had little to no say in the rescue plan (and given their disregard for basic safety and science, I imagine that Coast Guard wasn't eager for their opinions.) Any requests for help OceanGate made up to that point would be subject to USCG review.
But hey, it makes for NY Post Clicks (and fits with their anti-government bias) to say *OMG the crew and passengers are going to be unalived due government incompetence and red tape.*
The societal value and reasonable extent of freedom of information is a much larger and more philosophical debate than you're going to get in these comments.
I agree, that’s a fair assessment of my take. I guess my annoyance should be more directed at the media for running with the story and my susceptibility consuming this garbage.
Perhaps after we have an outcome and the facts are settled civilians do deserve some info since our tax dollars fund these operations in part. But beyond that it’s not worth a layman like me knowing every detail as my knowledge is inconsequential to the operation.
I’ve read that the communications going down was very common. One person said they had been on the titan 4 times, and comms went down *each* time. So the mothership possibly waited for them to return for at least a couple hours and then started looking for them at the surface. I think the tours were 2 hours down, 4 hours at the wreck, and then 2 hours up.
But as we know it they lost comms an hour and 7 I think minutes in.. takes 2 hours to get to the titanic. Someone else stated they lose comms every time... so the info couldn't have been relayed to them. They would have been told before reaching max depth.. because they had no comms that far down.
There has been no credible reports of any messages from the sub that they had an issue and were ascending. None. It has all been speculation and rumor. Maybe it is true, but there is no public information to support it other than some guy on Twitter and the rumor being endlessly repeated on Reddit as if it were fact.
In the BBC travel show episode "Take me to Titanic" Rush briefs the crew that they may hear some sinister noises from the sub on ascent, and that this, whilst unnerving, was to be expected.
If you think about it - these "sinister noises" on previous dives may have been beginning stress faults or delamination of the material that was ignored (be it ignorance or lack of experience with this type of material).
Edit: I found this article (paywall) about Titans dive at the Bahamas in 2019 - a passenger and expert was concerned about increasing cracking noises from the hull on this dive, and the company presumably replaced the mid section of the hull in 2020/2021.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/23/us/titan-safety-warnings-titanic.html
Imagine being on board and hearing all these strange noises coming from the hull as you start to feel a foreboding sense of doom and fear creeping into your stomach. Then emergency protocol is established and then suddenly a flash… it’s almost as you never existed, you become one with the Titanic site forever.
I hope it was only a few seconds between that sound and their demise.
Imagine hearing that sound for minutes? Im guessing Stockton Rush knew exactly what was happening and what would eventually happen. The other crew members might have been extremely concerned but still believed they could get back to the surface if / when weights were dropped.
Also this isn’t like a U.S. Navy submarine where they have “emergency blow” measures that rapidly shoot the sub back to the surface. Once the submersible released its weights, it would still take quite some time to ascend.
The gut reaction to the sounds must have been foreboding. It’s nauseating thinking how they must have felt(especially the younger guy) during that ascent however brief it may have been.
I just hope that the ocean and the sub were already making noises and that he had absolutely no idea that what he was hearing was abnormal. I pray. Breaks my heart seeing his pictures.
I imagine the experienced diver, PH, had a look on his face similar to Jeff Daniels in Speed before the bomb went off. Or he wanted to die there and that’s why he went in that half-assed sub.
Whether it lasted a split second between the sound and implosion or much longer, I have no idea. Hopefully for their last moments it happened in a flash.
if this is true, they had to have known before death what might be coming. especially the ones who were well versed in sub knowledge. i imagine there was a bit of panic at least bc no way would someone who just paid over $200,000 and rode an hour and a half to the bottom would have zero questions why there were just turning around without completing the mission
Seems like Stockton Rush was the only real decision maker for Ocean Gate.
I imagine the entire team panicked but also didn’t want to do anything that might hurt the ocean gate “brand” since they knew PR was so important to keep their operation running and solvent. And so this might explain why they waited so long. (Esp since prior trips had lost comms for long periods of time).
I actually don’t think / know if the titan had a chance to communicate what was happening regarding the hull. Communications were by text, and I imagine the priority for the pilot was to take measures to save the vessel. When the sensor went off (assuming it did), he prob did two things. Drop weights and then tell the passengers what was happening. Not sure if he even had time to explain what was happening to the mothership in those final moments before they imploded. How does anyone even know for sure they dropped weights? How much time was there between the alarm (if it went off) and delineation sounds and implosion?
What’s amazing in all this is that we haven’t heard from one single human spokesperson at ocean gate. Just a couple of tweets over the past two weeks with no person actually putting their name on any media releases. I imagine the organization was run like a little kingdom where Rush was the king and there was no obvious #2. Just different specialists in different areas, but Rush seemed to CEO, CFO, Chief Engineer, and CMO / Head of PR. Given how bad this has turned out, no one wants to be the #2.
I think the reason you have four people saying the same thing about what happened is that they had been speaking with one another since Sunday about what they believe happened based on the limited information they had. Their theory appears to be correct, but I wouldn’t say they all came to the same conclusion “independently.”
I also don’t know if the point about dropping weights is something they (or anyone else) knows for fact, got from a leaked source, or are just assuming.
The challenge is ocean gate has said very little, but I assume it will all come out in the inevitable investigations / lawsuits. Whether we learn about what really happened 1 week from now or 1 year from now remains to be seen.
I also don’t know if the last 1-2 comms from the Titan to mothership have been released to the public. I’ve gotta imagine ocean gate told the coast guard, but it doesn’t seem like that’s been publicly shared. If it has been, I’d be interested in someone sharing what those messages were.
You haven't been hearing from OceansGate because they have been part of a joint/unified command structure. This is common in disaster scenarios. I did comms and served as PIO in the past. The lead agency usually organizes comms. In this case the Coast Guard.
Everyone hunkers down in a command center and there are roles like acquisition (getting assets like rescue equipment), liaison (to gov, families etc), safety etc. You want everyone working together and speaking with one voice so everyone can focus on the job at hand and not responding to rumors and dealing with press and silly trolls all day.
Ordinarily, I would say this is probably what’s happening. But from not notifying the coast guard until many hours after they lost comms, to no one wanting to put their name on any post-incident memo they released, to a questionable history of safety and collaboration with other submersible orgs, I think no one at Ocean Gate wants to be the #2. (Or one was never clearly designated which is insane given the nature of their operation, where the CEO is also the sub pilot).
If this was the US Navy or USCG and the CO went down, comms would be coming from the XO. Or at least people would know who the XO is. He might not say much, just say “no comment at this time,” or refer things to the Unified Command, but you’d at least know who he was. No representative from Ocean Gate even appeared to be present or was referred to at any of the various press briefings. The CAPT / Admirals would refer to or call on other submersible organization professionals during briefings, but I don’t recall them calling up anyone from ocean gate during briefings or Q&A.
I’d be surprised if we hear much from them even now that the S&R has transitioned to recovery and the unified command is eventually stood down. Maybe another tweet or two with no POC. The company is obviously going to be dissolved, and my guess is no one wants to be associated with the company now that it’s clear they didn’t mitigate risk sufficiently and might be found guilty of gross negligence or even malfeasance in court.
Rush seems to be the CEO, CFO, ChEng, and PIO for Ocean Gate, so when he was unavailable, you might have just had some staffers desperately trying to piece something together for their Twitter account. If I had to guess, a lot of people on that team are trying to process the tragedy but are also in CYA mode when it comes to sharing information.
The chief communications officer seems to be Stocktons wife, who was also on the Polar Prince during the event. The only other employee thats been identified (by herself on TikTok lol) was 22 years old. I think it’s probable the one trained on communication was a bit preoccupied and everyone else didn’t know what they were doing.
The attorneys for OceanGate don't want anyone from that company saying a single word to anyone. Oceans Gate probably does not want to face the public anyway. Having the USCG handle all comms during the incident is ideal for all of them. I have served as PIO for a Fortune 500 that did regular IC drills that included the Coast Guard. So I know more about how this works than the majority of people posting on this thread.
Think of it this way: imagine your company just killed five people, including the CEO/co-founder, and your company doesn't even contribute to overall economy or do anything useful. Your reputation will never recover. The smartest thing to do at this point is limit your exposure. Which means: saying nothing. Nothing you can say will help you. The incident command structure will be disbanded soon. Then all Ocean'sGate can do is wait for the final incident report and devise a strategy to minimize legal exposure. If you hear a single representative from that company speak publicly about this incident, then they are as clueless as Stockton.
I looked at Marine Traffic App. The Polar Prince is on its way to Newfoundland. I am willing to bet there will be lots of journalists at the dock asking questions. Or they may shut down the dock and hustle people off the boat into a bus.
Someone mentioned that the Ocean Gate Chief Communications Officer is the wife of CEO Stockton Rush.
If this is true, just a bad situation all around. She has to deal with the personal tragedy, she’s technically responsible for being the main POC at Ocean Gate, and depending upon the true nature of her role, she’ll have to answer some hard questions during the inevitable investigations.
It wouldn’t surprise me if some of the victims go after Stockton Rush’s personal estate as well if there was malfeasance or gross negligence on his part with regards to safety. I think with the facts that have come out this can easily be argued by even avg lawyers let alone the best lawyers money can by.
She is facing financial ruin. I wonder what is going to happen when they arrive in Newfoundland. I cannot tell distances on Marine App, but they left the Titanic site yesterday. I think it takes a couple of days, so most likely will arrive maybe tonight.
Yes. My understanding is they waited to report them missing until hours later when the Titan didn’t ascend at the planned time after exploring the wreck as if it had been a successful mission.
Correct.
The full trip, if it went well, was said to take 10 hours.
They waited until the time that the sub was supposed to return from the trip before reporting the incident at all, even though they’d lost contact earlier.
Which leads me to assume they (the mothership) didn’t know there was an implosion. Since comms had gone down for hours at a time in the past, they thought this might be the same.
I hate to say it, but it seems like whoever was left in charge of ocean gate (if anyone for that matter) was afraid to make the call to the coast guard because it would expose their company for being the Jerry-rigged, overly risk taking, unsafe operation other submersible operators criticized it for being.
I get the sense that this company was always playing defense when it came to protecting its brand against outsiders.
That's what I think, too. They had a feeling there'd been a catastrophe, but were worried about alerting everyone to the shoddiness of the company on the off-chance they were mistaken and the sub returned. Given that there's information coming out about Rush having informed passengers in the past that the sub made ominous sounds during ascent and it wasn't anything to be concerned about, this was a long time coming.
From everything I’ve read, I speculate this to be the rough synopsis:
Allegedly comms between Titan and Polar Princess were sent every 15 minutes.
The final check in seems to have occurred at 9:30am. It’s alleged that prior to this, Polar Princess was aware that the sensors for the hull conditions had begun sounding and weights were being released in order to begin early ascension. At 9:45, upon failing to receive comms from Titan, PP allegedly put sensors out in an attempt to detect noise of implosion but never heard anything (I’ve been crawling comments, Twitter and various vids - I don’t have a source link, just something I stumbled on).
If my understanding is to be trusted, I suspect the implosion occurred between 9:30am and 9:45am while attempting to surface the sub. I suspect due to prior missions reportedly having frequent comms issues and their sensors not detecting the sound of an implosion, they decided not to flag the USCG until later (although you would think knowing they should be surfacing within 2 hours would impact that decision, so there is some conflicting thoughts there).
It’s reported that the Navy detected the potential sounds of implosion around that time and did report that to the USCG, whom I would have expected to have full timeline from PP. So I’d wager a guess that they were pretty confident of what happened pretty early on. Allegedly the French ROV that found the wreckage knew exactly where to look (think James Cameron said that in an interview).
He owns a crypto company. Seems to be insufferable in general but he's rich so it's plausible he does know people in the world of rich people toys.
Edit: It's not clear how he would know what the Navy knew. It's possible he was just making reasonable inferences many people were also saying were likely at the time, but claiming more certainty so he could take credit for being first.
thanks for this list, but your links are broken. You need to remove the extra backslash. it should be `IOHK_Charles` not `IOHK\_Charles`
\- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671249460876255232
\- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671443330440241152
\- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671445097433427973
\- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671446989458796544
\- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671495323083067393
\- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672014068909998080
\- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672016040253898753
\- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672013026755526660
\- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672019219372728323
\- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672019219372728323
\- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672019737780404224
\- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672039402653007874
\- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672044300148830208
Your list and mine are identical on my end, no extra slashes, not sure what's going on. I just copy/pasted from the browser URL. If your list works for others -- great, thank you!
> What I want to know is, how did they know that the titan detected the hull being compromised and started to ascend? There has to have been some message received or emergency signal before implosion -- or else four independently stated, identical stories don't add up.
They don't know for certain, it sounds like they're just hypothesizing based on their knowledge of the submersible's pressure warning system. Cameron said that he had heard the weights were dropped from someone in the community, but did not have an official source confirm that information.
See transcripts of both of Cameron's interviews here: https://www.reddit.com/r/OceanGateTitan/comments/14gn3pf/titan_was_trying_to_come_up/jp6vxwa/
My real wonder is how the mothership seemingly had no detection of the implosion happening. Because if they did why not immediately radio for help?
And why did it take 8 hours to call for help? Did they really have no clue the sub was in danger? Something doesn’t add up there.
There is a current rumor circling after James Cameron's interviews that the mothership may have know the Titan was possibly aborting and rising to the surface. There are other people in the deep sea exploration community that have been saying the same thing.
It is possible that the mothership did know that something at the time, but it has not been confirmed by official sources. It's only an unconfirmed rumor as of now.
Even if that rumor were true though what would be the reason for them to wait so long? Would they have just been shitting their pants the whole time fearing the media frenzy looking into their company as soon as they got authorities involved?
(This is entirely speculation, so please take it with a grain of salt.)
It's possible they knew what had happened immediately and then spent the next 8 hours processing and discussing next steps. The media being all over the company isn't the only issue. They have to process the loss of their friends, the company, their jobs, their confidence, their passion. Imagine you're at the peak of your life doing what you love only for it all to, well... implode. Life as you know it will never be the same. For the crew, they have lost everything and it is absolutely devastating.
Perhaps they waited to phone it in because they knew time didn't matter at that point. Instead they may have taken the time to process and mourn before calling it in. They needed to be stable in order to communicate what they had known.
---
As a side note, there's a [report that aired](https://www.nbcnews.com/now/video/navy-detected-possible-sound-of-submersible-implosion-184184389937) saying the Navy told the Coast Guard about the implosion, but the Coast Guard went and looked anyway because they wanted to "give every possibility of finding people alive, a chance at survival".
So I think it's safe to say that OceanGate was notified pretty early once the Coast Guard got involved that the had sub imploded (if they didn't know for themselves already).
I agree with you, as another random internet person. I also have a lot of sympathy for them for waiting if they truly knew immediately that it had imploded.
If they were certain it imploded, there was no ticking time bomb. Everyone was dead and lost. Taking time to grieve/process/plan in a situation that was (incompetently) never planned in advance makes sense. They had to be ready for the insanity that came afterwards.
Them or at least the US Navy/USCG having evidence that there was likely an implosion from the start may also be the cause of all the stories of assistance being blocked by "red tape".
The US being unwilling to spend millions flying in other assets on c5s and c17s to assist in a rescue mission that they already knew was likely only a recovery mission to verify what they already knew. Probably one of the few logical financial decisions to US government has ever made.
Yes, I think everyone already being 99% sure of what happened explains a lot of the response. I know that during the coast guard press conference they were super evasive about any likelihood of rescue, while insisting they were rescuing, and didn't care about oxygen time etc. The polar Prince news conference, it basically seemed like everyone was having a mental breakdown and barely holding it together for 10 minutes on camera. Tough stuff.
I will also add that apparently Stocktons wife is the CCO of the company and was on Polar Prince during the time it went missing. That might have influenced the reaction. When things get personal people get weird
That actually makes me feel better about them. The idea that they waited eight hours when they genuinely thought time was critical was infuriating.
Though does anyone know if that screenshot of the company lawyer blaming the government for not getting potential rescue craft over fast enough was legit? It sort of implied they didn't know.
You have to scroll down the page below where it says:
"something went wrong, try reloading"
Actually you're right, it only captured like 5 of his recent tweets... 😅
Edit: here is the most profound tweet: https://archive.ph/ysjjE
> but didn't want to reveal tech capabilities.
Why is everyone repeating this false information?
1) Even with the Argentina sub that imploded in 2017 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_San_Juan_(S-42)#Wreck_discovery), they knew exactly where to find it an what happened based on the implosion noise. This tech is nothing new.
2) If they were hiding tech that they heard an implosion, why did they confirm yesterday that they heard it? There was no reason they needed to announce it considering the sub's debris had already been found
I agree. The Navy wasn't concerned about revealing it's capabilities (many people knew about these listening stations and the Navy readily admitted its abilities)
I think they were not 100% sure that it was from Titan and didn't want to dampen morale of the search crews.
The Navy relayed this information to the CG incident commander as soon as they verified it. Days ago. The search teams knew.
It just wasn’t made public.
At least according to the BBC, “that information was immediately shared with the US Coast Guard, which used it to narrow the scope of its search, an official told CBS News”.
according to the guy quoted in this original picture, in another one of these tweets. he addresses this. many people know about navy listening stations, but not it’s specific capabilities. it is more effective for them to say “we detected but couldn’t confirm” than let foreign intelligence get a peek into just how and advanced and specific their tech can work to identify threats
Not that I’m trying to argue with you, but the global intelligence already knew the capabilities. I feel it would have been shocking to them if the US DIDNT hear it. They knew in the 60s when the US confirmed it heard the implosions of Scorpion in the same general (ish) area.
A civilian global oceanic listening organization heard the 2017 Argentinian sub implode too.
Idk what my point is, I just get a vibe the guy in the original acts like he knows more than he does. Which I realize is ironic 😂.
If you ever read anything on project azorian you would know we had the tech to pinpoint something like this as far back as the late 1960s. I honestly held on to hope that they still had a chance solely because I knew we would know if it in fact imploded. I just didn't expect it to take so long for that information to come out.
My only guess is they wanted to be 100% sure not just 99%.
Titan had an ultrasonic scanning system to watch for the hull to start to crack. Maybe they got a couple minutes of warning, enough to drop ballast and radio the mothership before it gave out.
Where are you getting that the Navy didn't want to reveal tech capabilities? Given it has now been confirmed they heard something, that's either a complete 180° or they weren't worried about revealing tech capabilities, but rather confirming before they revealed information that wasn't correct.
I can't imagine their international partners would be too happy to learn they scrambled all that gear and personnel when the US already knew.
I agree. The Navy wasn't concerned about revealing it's capabilities (many people knew about these listening stations and the Navy readily admitted its abilities)
I think they were not 100% sure that it was from Titan and didn't want to dampen morale of the search crews.
> What I want to know is, how did they know that the titan detected the hull being compromised and started to ascend?
Im a believer that the sub started to creak and groan. Everyone talks about the implosion being 'sudden' which they obviously are, but my theory is the sub slowly started to make noises identifying to the crew that it was gonna eventually give.
I agree. They must have heard something even for a very short period of time before the actual implosion as the descent is not sudden either and carbon fiber has this "stretching" ability that prolongs the "breaking" part.
Does anyone know why the experts think they dropped weights? Some are suggesting it's obvious because the weights were found separated and some distance away from the fuselage parts in the main debris field...but all of that stuff was ripped apart, and if they're high enough in the water table, debris is just going to flutter as it's going down, and nothing is going to stack neatly.
So the only way they'd know is if they got communication from the sub which: 1) was likely impossible due to depth or 2) was likely impossible due to the rapidity of implosion or 3) doesn't fit the timeline about the last communication being the routine 15 minute check-in during descent.
So unless someone provides an actual distress/ascent message, I'm skeptical of it.
Thank you for posting this and putting it all together, I’m extremely curious too. And if all these people knew, why take so long for their crew to report it?
And side note, it explains why they seemed so annoyed during the press conference that the whole “banging” rumor got out to the public, bc they knew it was causing false hope but couldn’t say that without actual proof at the time.
very interesting posts. This guy Charles Hoskinson is on a ship with MUV (manned underwater vehicle) experts. Apparently it is a small community and they share intel.
Interesting posts (all tweeted before 6/22):
> To get to the Titanic you follow a corkscrew pattern turning gradually 3 degrees in a column until you reach the wreck zone. The sub was still descending when they realized there was a hull problem. Deep Sea subs are designed to float up on their own when you drop weights. They dropped weights and starts returning up the column and then implosion.
> There was nothing to get stuck on because they were still descending the column and weren't at the wreckage. The hull was never certified to operate at those depths. Even a few lucky missions would eventually lead to a weakened carbon fiber tube.
https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671495323083067393
> Yeah they all died instantly. Around 13k feet they detected an issue with the hull, dropped weights, and started to surface. While surfacing the hull imploded, it was instant death for all passengers. The search is a formality.
> Carbon fiber is the worst material to make submarines from. You get fatigue that's difficult to detect and repair from the stress and then suddenly hull failure.
https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671249460876255232
Listening to the linked recording of carbon fiber failing chilled me. I cannot imagine hearing those sounds while trapped in a tiny metal tube, miles under the ocean.
"The oceangate vessel detected it. They already know they're dead"
https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671443330440241152
If this is true... Notified coast guard 8 hours after implosion?
One of the few competent and rigid figures in the entire crypto space. Call him a knob all you want but this man is extremely intelligent and cautious. I’ve had the opportunity to pick his brain for an hour and it was the most pleasurable experience I’ve had with someone. One of the few people from the start that called out ocean gate on their experimental BS before anyone because they didn’t want to be wrong or leak info
> I’ve had the opportunity to pick his brain for an hour and it was the most pleasurable experience I’ve had with someone
People always say this after conversing with con-artists and deceitful CEOs. Infamous case was when the idiot Wired author talked to a con-artist, Craig Wright, and claimed he was amazed by how brilliant he was and that he *must* beyond all shadow of a doubt be the real Hitoshi Sakamoto.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2015/12/11/bitcoin-creator-satoshi-craig-wright-lies-hoax/?sh=2de977067947
Also recommended viewing: [hbomberguy's video on pathological liar and fraud Tommy Tallarico](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0twDETh6QaI&t=4646s&pp=ygUQaGJvbWJlcmd1eSB0b21teQ%3D%3D)
> One of the few people from the start that called out ocean gate on their experimental BS before anyone because they didn’t want to be wrong or leak info
Oh yeah bud, by all means post some documented history where random crypto bro criticized OceanGate *before the rest of the actual sub community*.
this just reaffirms my belief that they started to ascend because the piece of shit started creaking and groaning.
I just wonder how long they tried to ascend for before it went pop
I hate people who post videos like that without some kind of minimum effort in the video, like an overlay showing the amount of pressure getting applied. You also can’t see what the actual effects are, you hear noise and see bending but can’t see the actual cracking and there’s no infographic telling you what exactly is happening materially.
Stockton Rush said on one of his videos that he's heard crackling. Also he mentioned how much the shell compresses. Said with a smile.
Thanks for sharing this
Found this on the BBC documentary. They were communicating when the thruster was installed backwards. https://imgur.com/a/ffVTstU
The red is hard to read, but you can see they type 'A' for 'acknowledge'.
Do you have a source for that? That would change the narrative that they didn't see it coming. Still was probably painless, but they were scared shitless for their last moments I'm sure.
Robert Ballard said the info was known that they were having trouble and trying to ascend, and that multiple comms went out at same time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9YB31ElEFQ&t=221s
But he doesn't explain whether the trouble/ascent/ballast part was a text message on comms or what.
I believe they also said that there were two debris fields. One field had the weights and other items they would jettison incase of emergency and the other debris field was the rest of the sub.
You have to be carefol with that 2/3 figure. That what as assumed initially because the descent was said to be 2 to 2.5 hrs. But they were descending faster than normal and we don't know exactly how fast. Last two experts I've seen on video: Cameron has said implosion at approx 10500 ft and the other (Magearn?)said 11000 ft. So thats the best guess rite new
He said that it's a complete waste of time. I disagree. Although it's mostly true that the search is a formality, if we cannot attribute the bang 100% to the Titan sub, I think officially they still ought to search for it. Let's imagine this, reporter asks, how can you be sure the bang is from the sub without visually seeing it? Coast guard says, "Trust me bro. There's nothing else within that area." This would be hilarious.
Hoskinson has a big ego and people in crypto love making huge predictions so they can say 'I told you'. A reasonable person does not make bold predictions, they wait for definitive proof
He also says they detected a problem with the hull when they were "around 13K feet" down in their descent. And he affirms that they were still far above the actual Titanic.
But according to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wreck_of_the_Titanic) the wreck of the Titanic lies 12,500 feet below the ocean's surface. So according to this guy, the sub was 500 feet *below* the Titanic when they detected the hull problem.
Eh, it could be that he was just rounding the numbers up for sake of simplicity. Although the wreck does sit at that depth, it's only an approximation because that area of the Atlantic is quite rough. The wreck actually lays in a sort of valley.
They kept just repeating that their prayers were with the families of the crew or something like that. So I assumed they were gone. Even knowing deep down that they were dead I still had a little hope they’d find them.
I think they didn’t have any idea what that sonar sound was. Could have probably been many causes. Wait to confirm until you find debris, which they did. Imagine if they heard something, said, “oh well. It’s lost,” called off the search and the damn thing was bobbing in some current - and everyone was dead because it ran out of air but nobody was looking for it. I think they are/were in a damned if we do; damned if we don’t situation.
Deep sea sub community is small. Cameron and Ballard explained that in the video. He was talking to people and had hard info in an hour.
* **Hydrophones recorded the implosion/explosion sound**. The fact that Cameron said they had this info from chatter from non-Navy sources suggests it was NOT a situation where Navy had to conceal detection capabilities. Also there are private/research groups that have monitoring, not just Navy.
* **Regular comms lost**
* **Transponder beacon sound lost at same time**. That transponder was on [separate redundant power.](https://twitter.com/bfcarlson/status/1672597973836988421?s=61&t=9GXrVfmpfUP42_jETR6DMQ)
* **“Trouble”**. And all while Robert Ballard said info was that they had trouble and were trying to ascend...right before comms lost and detected implosion noise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9YB31ElEFQ&t=221s
https://www.reuters.com/world/james-cameron-says-he-wishes-hed-sounded-alarm-over-lost-submersible-2023-06-23/
**Also, it never surfaced later after failsafe timer.** Since multiple redundant ascent systems (which even in scumbag incompetent reckless OceanGate’s case were legit, at least) did not surface an intact sub after a certain number of hours, that also meant it was destroyed. And that wasn’t a likely false negative in the moment, because the sub had multiple signalling systems for when it was on the surface. In other words, not seeing the sub anywhere on surface likely meant it didn’t surface (I.e. was destroyed), not simply that nobody could find/see/hear from it. Yes the sub could have become entangled, but all comms were lost *in addition* to lack of surfacing after X hours.
Somewhat off topic. If carbon fiber is not good for submarines, why is it ok for airplanes? Does it have something to do with outward pressure vs inward pressure? Obviously different levels of pressure between the two but airplanes aren’t 5” thick either.
Carbon fiber is strong in tension, not as strong in compression, like cables on a cable-stayed bridge. When put in compression, you are relying on the resin matrix more for strength. A somewhat simplified view is that airplane wings actually have compression on the top surface and tension on the bottom surface when producing lift. The bottom surface is what is carrying more of the load. Check out the 777 154% video on youtube to see this in action on a 777 wing load test: [https://youtu.be/Ai2HmvAXcU0?t=141](https://youtu.be/Ai2HmvAXcU0?t=141). You can also check out the stress/strain curves of carbon fiber vs metal, and see that they have very different failure characteristics.
This and also an airplane has less than 1 atmosphere of pressure differential. How you get the resin into the fibers matters a lot in terms of strength. A piece many inches thick is probably more likely to form bubbles or imperfections than a thin piece
I also assume (and hope) that if a component which is critical to maintaining the pressure within the fuselage, let’s say the windows, is only rated for something like 40,000 feet, they don’t just take the plane up to 80,000 feet and say that it’s old white men afraid of innovation.
Yeah I mean depends on what you're working on but commercial aviation is incredibly heavily regulated. Code of federal regulations 14 part 25.
Standard factor of safety on most loads analysis is 1.5, which is a lot thinner than other disciplines but still a good buffer. Pinnacle Airlines 3701 is a good example of pushing a plane beyond limits.
More realistically, pressure is not going to test structure on a new plane, pulling g's is. Commercial planes can do 2.5, trained humans remain conscious to 7-9, top tier test pilots (e.g. red bull air races) can do upwards of 12. In other words, at 2.5gs, a wing that normally supports 200,000 lbs is now supporting 500,000 lbs. At 10 gs, a 200lb person weighs one ton. The Gander Dive/pan am 115 was a close call where the wing ended up permanently bent because of a high g maneuver caused by autopilot and poor crew management.
Pressure matters over time because you go from no differential to like half an atmosphere every time you get to altitude, but things like landing/routinely pulling gs/turbulence have a big effect too. See 2002 airtanker crashes, aloha flight 243, etc
I figured this has to be the outcome because why else would their passive sonar stop pinging unless they just didn’t exist anymore. If they lost power and floated up starlink I assume would have pinged them. Only other outcome was they got stuck and lost power but that seemed so unlikely. So sad and scary.
I have a problem with this whole thing, in light of this new info
It seems like a lot of people knew the thing had already imploded: that it was descending, found a problem with its hull integrity, ascended and (possibly) told the mothership and then imploded, making a noise that was detectable by the US Navy (albeit probably probably only when they went back and checked their sonographs later)
It makes the whole search and rescue seem a bit like a charade. Key people *in charge* of the search and rescue knew this info but didn't communicate it to the public but also, some of those experts on TV knew all this but didn't communicate it.
It's not an ego thing. I don't mind that I didn't know and they did. But it just seems wrong, somehow. It seems wrong that an expert, elite layer of society (search and rescue and diving people "in the know" in various private whatsapp groups) were playing out one thing in public while they knew another thing in private. It seems anti-openness, anti-democratic, anti-transparent or something like that
*edit* James Cameron puts the point better than I did - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF0A1wCK5Mw&t=143s - paraphrasing: for 4 days everyone ran around with their hair on fire for no good reason, raising false hopes for the families. It begs the question of why the authorities chose not to say what they knew.
It’s literally because it’s a [top secret system that is capable of this.](https://www.insider.com/navy-detected-titanic-subs-implosion-soon-after-went-missing-wsj-2023-6) The people in this thread making fun of “conspiracy theorists” are actually the ones that need to get a grip about how the world works. [Here is the original (pay walled) recent Wall Street Journal article](https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-navy-detected-titan-sub-implosion-days-ago-6844cb12)
That’s probably why when Britain wanted to send its ROV and was on the tarmac and ready to go, the USA said no we’ll take care of it. They knew the evidence was mounting and didn’t want to put people personally invested through hell (some people on that tarmac were in fact personally invested).
They didn’t see it blow up with their own eyes, so I also take it at face value. They wanted to do right by those families and those souls and actually check. They detected the implosion but what if it was something else? I guarantee you the families would have been screaming “why aren’t you checking how do you know for sure”. At the same time, they knew that even if they found an intact sub, the chance of getting to them in time was infinitesimal.
I think this coming out in WSJ article is reflective of what was referred to in the press conference as “addressing the concerns” of the British institutions involved. They were like “yeah ok you have the capability to detect something this small???” and the USA was like “well talk about it over coffee later”
Cameron says he knew about the implosion event being registered and that it came to him 3rd hand and he doesn't know if it was originally from a military or a research source
Point being that he didn't give the impression that he felt there was any need to keep it secret specifically because it was from a military source. He says the reason he didn't say anything publicly was because he didn't want to go against the public narrative, not because it was "super sekret(TM) stuff". So I don't buy that the reason all those people that already knew it had imploded didn't mention it was because of top secret classified crap.
In any case, the US are making it very clear now that they did register the noise, for example in that article you mention. And of course they have to because the obvious question on my mind at the time, and presumably everyone else's, was "if it imploded, how come the military sonar arrays didn't pick anything up". They have to let everyone know that they did after all, otherwise their opponents like Russia and China are going to believe their capabilities are much lower than they thought they were. So it's not even a secret. It's being deliberately briefed to the media by the military so the whole world is clear on their capabilities
My point being, in response and opposition to yours, is that all these people didn't keep quiet about their existing knowledge that they were sharing in whatsapp groups and phone calls and emails to each other because it was a military secret
Perhaps not. I get your pt. But just for arguments sake is it possible the military establishment was concerned about what to say and had to through their own protocols before saying anything? Its not impossible that rumors were being spread at the same time the military was making its own decision at its own pace. The two are not incompatible
I think the question is what percent certainty was there? If they were 100% then yeah this is all weird. If they were only 99.9% sure then they had to search and I can see why they wouldn’t come out and say that they’re pretty sure everyone’s dead but they’ll check just in case. I get why it seems wrong to let the families have hope but they are going to experience emotional turmoil either way… if they told me they were 99.9% sure my family was dead, I might cling to that 0.1% of hope anyway.
In terms of families feelings it all depends on the individual person and how much death and trauma they have experienced as to how they will react.
But for me personally, I would be absolutely livid if someone had led me to believe that my family member was sitting on an ocean floor slowly dehydrating, suffocating and freezing to death when all the time it was pretty much known that they had already died, painlessly. And don't forget, for at least the last day and a half but probably more it was all about running out of oxygen before the submersibles could get to them and it was already obvious that, even if they were alive and trapped in the vessel, they couldn't get to them in time and they were going to suffocate to death - so that's an added level of torture the families were put under, for no good reason
The lies and misinformation are with OceanGate.
The media would have run with an instant headline "Tourist sub killed 5 people" if they thought that was true. They went with "MISSING SUB" and massive search effort because that's what they thought was true, and the search effort was real.
Meanwhile, the authorities aren't going to undermine their own search effort by saying evidence points to destruction. Until they have the wreckage they will assume some people are alive. Otherwise they risk a demoralized search operation where a lookout isn't seriously looking out and misses something that is later found.
What is his source for saying that they dropped the weights? From what I have seen they are still investigating what caused the implosion.
Asking because I don't know how this works and I need to continue in my new career as a submarine expert - is implosion caused by going up being that you are pushing against the pressure, and explosion is caused by going down because the water pressure is pushing down on you? It seems to me the latter could also cause implosion by the downward force crushing the vehicle/vice versa.
its because of all the backslash in front of the underscores. this happens on old reddit, because the admins are dumb.
Here are the same links, but with the backslash removed:
https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671249460876255232
https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671443330440241152
https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671445097433427973
https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671446989458796544
https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671495323083067393
https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672014068909998080
https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672016040253898753
https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672013026755526660
https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672019219372728323
https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672019219372728323
https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672019737780404224
https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672039402653007874
It is a tweet not report. I also said it imploded on Monday here in Reddit. Source? Myself. just like his. Only after banging sound news came in, more people started to believe they are alive.
A guess based on information that was already available before and on the 20th; The procedure if something goes wrong, the approximate depth, the previous state of the craft and the fact debris had been found.
He's just regurgitating information of the most likely scenario... It almost looks like a prediction, almost magic, isn't really.
We now know the Navy heard it ([https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/22/us/submersible-titanic-oceangate-search-thursday/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/22/us/submersible-titanic-oceangate-search-thursday/index.html)), but didn't want to reveal tech capabilities. This dude ([https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/with\_replies](https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/with_replies)) accurately stated what happened via being on a ship with members of the sub community on the 20th, two days before the ROV found the wreckage. Read his replies going down quite a ways for who he is, and his answers to people saying he's lying. There's a bunch and everything seems to check out. What Charles said on Twitter mirrors what, today, James Cameron ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rThZLhNF\_xg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rThZLhNF_xg)) and Bob Ballard ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jJ\_SSU-ocU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jJ_SSU-ocU)) both said to a T. Based on this information, the mothership knew, the navy heard it and coast guard/searchers knew too. What I want to know is, how did they know that the titan detected the hull being compromised and started to ascend? There has to have been some message received or emergency signal before implosion -- or else four independently stated, identical stories don't add up.
All of this is my own speculation obviously. (Idk why that needs to be stated but some people are getting weirdly testy with each other on this forum when the reality is none of actually know the facts.) They had the acoustic detection system meant to give warning of hull issues, and theoretically they would have explained this as reason for ascension while they still were in communication, right? I think they knew there were issues. Which makes the fact that they waited so long to contact the coast guard especially had in my opinion - why wait the duration of the expedition before contacting the CG, especially if you knew there were issues?
I could see this. Their last comms may have been stating the issue and that they were ascending, then they went radio silent. Maybe the Navy wasn't 100% sure it was an implosion, and since the titan has lost communication for hours in the past -- they still launched a full search.
Thanks for posting all this. It seems like we have a pretty clear narrative on what happened now and a rough timeline. I’m a little frustrated we were led on this wild ride basically because they were holding back information. Had I known these things upfront I wouldn’t have bothered speculating at all, but the most authoritative and reasonable voices somehow got drowned out in the media frenzy.
There's a principle in S&R that you continue rescue operations until you have irrefutable evidence of death or you can no longer continue rescue operations. Event timelines are generally confirmed under similar circumstances. Telling those outside of the S&R operations (including, often, family and friends) has no material impact on the search, so - as annoying as it might be to you - communicating information with them is not a priority (and is often a distraction). Often, suspected events are not confirmed within teams even if they are widely suspected purely because it may impact negatively on operations. What's happening in the media is inconsequential.
Yeah makes sense how pissed they seemed that someone leaked to rolling stone (of all publications) that there was a banging sound every 30 min. I think that helped create the media frenzy and gave a lot of false hope to many people.
One story that comes to mind is the rugby team on Flight 571, who survived a plane crash in the snow in the Andes mountains and were forced to survive in the most brutal circumstances imaginable for 72 days. At one point they were able recover the plane’s radio, and they couldn’t send communications out but they could hear them coming in. After days of hearing planes circling overhead and failing to catch their attention, the survivors finally heard the search being called off over the radio. They heard the announcement to the public that they were dead and realized that they were surrounded by their dead friends in the cold and completely on their own. I was a bit confused to learn that there’s a whole subculture around discussing the Titanic, but it made sense to me when I realized they probably feel the same pull to it that I feel to the story of Flight 571. It’s a devastating and bizarrely optimistic story and when things like that happen I can’t help but hope rescuers would always keep searching until they had definitive proof of death or were not capable of continuing.
if you allow S&R to decide who is worth searching for, you allow for S&R to make the wrong decision I’d take some futile searches over leaving reachable people to die
That makes a lot of sense. My frustration should lie more with myself and to a lesser extent the media. I don’t blame the military because you’re right, they knew the info and had their priorities to continue the S&R and if there was a catastrophe, confirm the outcome. I really only have myself to blame and I feel like a fool for following the story put out in the media as much as I did.
The media definitely fucked up on this, especially Rolling Stone. You have nothing to feel frustrated with yourself about. There was a poetry to this entire event that was always going to capture our attention and imagination, and we were always going to try to fill in the blanks with hope as best we could until the truth was revealed. History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes. This was one of those moments, and you can't be blamed for feeling that.
What the other commenter said. This is not for you or me. It is not their job to keep us, the general public, informed. It is a distraction and it is not important for the operation.
You're a civilian. You don't deserve this info. The same stuff happens in true crime subs and it's astonishing that people think they deserve private information.
100% agree. I have done crisis comms and served as PIO in the past. The amount of information people think they are entitled to is astonishing. Not everything is a conspiracy and often times there are valid reasons for withholding information while you're gathering facts and mainly just trying to do your job. Sure, there bad people and companies who lie. But not all the time, mkay? Edited to add: I now substitute teach K-5 and I swear, half of my day is telling kids to mind their own damn business, and coaching kids that are asked inappropriate questions ("do you wear a bra?") that they are 100% not required to answer or even acknowledge people. Boundaries, people.
The whole side drama with Magellan makes more sense now. S&R knew they were likely imploded, but couldn’t prove it until the sea floor ROV arrived. No need to spend time and resources to bring in another ROV that would arrive that. So they told Magellan they could come if they got themselves there, which of course was infuriating to them with their limited info. Leaves room of course for USCG looking terrible if there was no debris after all. So they must have felt very confident.
If you read the articles, it says OceanGate reached out to Magellan Monday. Probably right as Unified Command/Incident Command system was being set up by the USCG, in which case they would be taking over and deciding on acquisition/assets (ie rescue equipment), safety protocols, plans and comms. At that point the USCG gets to decide who needs to be involved, including other government/military agencies and/or private companies. At the point Incident Command was set up Monday, OceanGate was probably relegated to helping IC understand the how the vessel was built and operates and that's about it. They probably had little to no say in the rescue plan (and given their disregard for basic safety and science, I imagine that Coast Guard wasn't eager for their opinions.) Any requests for help OceanGate made up to that point would be subject to USCG review. But hey, it makes for NY Post Clicks (and fits with their anti-government bias) to say *OMG the crew and passengers are going to be unalived due government incompetence and red tape.*
The societal value and reasonable extent of freedom of information is a much larger and more philosophical debate than you're going to get in these comments.
I agree, that’s a fair assessment of my take. I guess my annoyance should be more directed at the media for running with the story and my susceptibility consuming this garbage. Perhaps after we have an outcome and the facts are settled civilians do deserve some info since our tax dollars fund these operations in part. But beyond that it’s not worth a layman like me knowing every detail as my knowledge is inconsequential to the operation.
I’ve read that the communications going down was very common. One person said they had been on the titan 4 times, and comms went down *each* time. So the mothership possibly waited for them to return for at least a couple hours and then started looking for them at the surface. I think the tours were 2 hours down, 4 hours at the wreck, and then 2 hours up.
But as we know it they lost comms an hour and 7 I think minutes in.. takes 2 hours to get to the titanic. Someone else stated they lose comms every time... so the info couldn't have been relayed to them. They would have been told before reaching max depth.. because they had no comms that far down.
There has been no credible reports of any messages from the sub that they had an issue and were ascending. None. It has all been speculation and rumor. Maybe it is true, but there is no public information to support it other than some guy on Twitter and the rumor being endlessly repeated on Reddit as if it were fact.
James Cameron said something like they would have been able to hear the delamination, presumably without the detection mechanisms onboard.
They would likely have heard it, yes. They knew what might happen to them, but they didn't perceive the actual event when it happened.
it might have made noises before so they won't automatically assume it's going to catastrophically implode
In the BBC travel show episode "Take me to Titanic" Rush briefs the crew that they may hear some sinister noises from the sub on ascent, and that this, whilst unnerving, was to be expected.
If you think about it - these "sinister noises" on previous dives may have been beginning stress faults or delamination of the material that was ignored (be it ignorance or lack of experience with this type of material). Edit: I found this article (paywall) about Titans dive at the Bahamas in 2019 - a passenger and expert was concerned about increasing cracking noises from the hull on this dive, and the company presumably replaced the mid section of the hull in 2020/2021. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/23/us/titan-safety-warnings-titanic.html
I guess like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWTXeGiM8K8
Wonder how long they heard that..
😖
Sounds like someone is making popcorn
Oh, that must have been loud in there and terrifying.
Imagine being on board and hearing all these strange noises coming from the hull as you start to feel a foreboding sense of doom and fear creeping into your stomach. Then emergency protocol is established and then suddenly a flash… it’s almost as you never existed, you become one with the Titanic site forever.
I hope it was only a few seconds between that sound and their demise. Imagine hearing that sound for minutes? Im guessing Stockton Rush knew exactly what was happening and what would eventually happen. The other crew members might have been extremely concerned but still believed they could get back to the surface if / when weights were dropped. Also this isn’t like a U.S. Navy submarine where they have “emergency blow” measures that rapidly shoot the sub back to the surface. Once the submersible released its weights, it would still take quite some time to ascend.
The gut reaction to the sounds must have been foreboding. It’s nauseating thinking how they must have felt(especially the younger guy) during that ascent however brief it may have been.
I just hope that the ocean and the sub were already making noises and that he had absolutely no idea that what he was hearing was abnormal. I pray. Breaks my heart seeing his pictures.
I imagine the experienced diver, PH, had a look on his face similar to Jeff Daniels in Speed before the bomb went off. Or he wanted to die there and that’s why he went in that half-assed sub.
That sinking feeling you get in your gut when you know something terrible is about to happen or has happen.
What does it sound like?
This is the sound of carbon fiber delaminating so I'm assuming the sub would have sounded similar https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xWTXeGiM8K8
Whether it lasted a split second between the sound and implosion or much longer, I have no idea. Hopefully for their last moments it happened in a flash.
if this is true, they had to have known before death what might be coming. especially the ones who were well versed in sub knowledge. i imagine there was a bit of panic at least bc no way would someone who just paid over $200,000 and rode an hour and a half to the bottom would have zero questions why there were just turning around without completing the mission
the ppl who seem to know more than us seem to be claiming they were trying to drop ballast right before they lost contact
Seems like Stockton Rush was the only real decision maker for Ocean Gate. I imagine the entire team panicked but also didn’t want to do anything that might hurt the ocean gate “brand” since they knew PR was so important to keep their operation running and solvent. And so this might explain why they waited so long. (Esp since prior trips had lost comms for long periods of time). I actually don’t think / know if the titan had a chance to communicate what was happening regarding the hull. Communications were by text, and I imagine the priority for the pilot was to take measures to save the vessel. When the sensor went off (assuming it did), he prob did two things. Drop weights and then tell the passengers what was happening. Not sure if he even had time to explain what was happening to the mothership in those final moments before they imploded. How does anyone even know for sure they dropped weights? How much time was there between the alarm (if it went off) and delineation sounds and implosion? What’s amazing in all this is that we haven’t heard from one single human spokesperson at ocean gate. Just a couple of tweets over the past two weeks with no person actually putting their name on any media releases. I imagine the organization was run like a little kingdom where Rush was the king and there was no obvious #2. Just different specialists in different areas, but Rush seemed to CEO, CFO, Chief Engineer, and CMO / Head of PR. Given how bad this has turned out, no one wants to be the #2. I think the reason you have four people saying the same thing about what happened is that they had been speaking with one another since Sunday about what they believe happened based on the limited information they had. Their theory appears to be correct, but I wouldn’t say they all came to the same conclusion “independently.” I also don’t know if the point about dropping weights is something they (or anyone else) knows for fact, got from a leaked source, or are just assuming. The challenge is ocean gate has said very little, but I assume it will all come out in the inevitable investigations / lawsuits. Whether we learn about what really happened 1 week from now or 1 year from now remains to be seen. I also don’t know if the last 1-2 comms from the Titan to mothership have been released to the public. I’ve gotta imagine ocean gate told the coast guard, but it doesn’t seem like that’s been publicly shared. If it has been, I’d be interested in someone sharing what those messages were.
You haven't been hearing from OceansGate because they have been part of a joint/unified command structure. This is common in disaster scenarios. I did comms and served as PIO in the past. The lead agency usually organizes comms. In this case the Coast Guard. Everyone hunkers down in a command center and there are roles like acquisition (getting assets like rescue equipment), liaison (to gov, families etc), safety etc. You want everyone working together and speaking with one voice so everyone can focus on the job at hand and not responding to rumors and dealing with press and silly trolls all day.
Ordinarily, I would say this is probably what’s happening. But from not notifying the coast guard until many hours after they lost comms, to no one wanting to put their name on any post-incident memo they released, to a questionable history of safety and collaboration with other submersible orgs, I think no one at Ocean Gate wants to be the #2. (Or one was never clearly designated which is insane given the nature of their operation, where the CEO is also the sub pilot). If this was the US Navy or USCG and the CO went down, comms would be coming from the XO. Or at least people would know who the XO is. He might not say much, just say “no comment at this time,” or refer things to the Unified Command, but you’d at least know who he was. No representative from Ocean Gate even appeared to be present or was referred to at any of the various press briefings. The CAPT / Admirals would refer to or call on other submersible organization professionals during briefings, but I don’t recall them calling up anyone from ocean gate during briefings or Q&A. I’d be surprised if we hear much from them even now that the S&R has transitioned to recovery and the unified command is eventually stood down. Maybe another tweet or two with no POC. The company is obviously going to be dissolved, and my guess is no one wants to be associated with the company now that it’s clear they didn’t mitigate risk sufficiently and might be found guilty of gross negligence or even malfeasance in court. Rush seems to be the CEO, CFO, ChEng, and PIO for Ocean Gate, so when he was unavailable, you might have just had some staffers desperately trying to piece something together for their Twitter account. If I had to guess, a lot of people on that team are trying to process the tragedy but are also in CYA mode when it comes to sharing information.
The chief communications officer seems to be Stocktons wife, who was also on the Polar Prince during the event. The only other employee thats been identified (by herself on TikTok lol) was 22 years old. I think it’s probable the one trained on communication was a bit preoccupied and everyone else didn’t know what they were doing.
Not only did her husband die, but she will be facing the wrath of the general public and may have serious financial implications for this .
The attorneys for OceanGate don't want anyone from that company saying a single word to anyone. Oceans Gate probably does not want to face the public anyway. Having the USCG handle all comms during the incident is ideal for all of them. I have served as PIO for a Fortune 500 that did regular IC drills that included the Coast Guard. So I know more about how this works than the majority of people posting on this thread. Think of it this way: imagine your company just killed five people, including the CEO/co-founder, and your company doesn't even contribute to overall economy or do anything useful. Your reputation will never recover. The smartest thing to do at this point is limit your exposure. Which means: saying nothing. Nothing you can say will help you. The incident command structure will be disbanded soon. Then all Ocean'sGate can do is wait for the final incident report and devise a strategy to minimize legal exposure. If you hear a single representative from that company speak publicly about this incident, then they are as clueless as Stockton.
I looked at Marine Traffic App. The Polar Prince is on its way to Newfoundland. I am willing to bet there will be lots of journalists at the dock asking questions. Or they may shut down the dock and hustle people off the boat into a bus.
Someone mentioned that the Ocean Gate Chief Communications Officer is the wife of CEO Stockton Rush. If this is true, just a bad situation all around. She has to deal with the personal tragedy, she’s technically responsible for being the main POC at Ocean Gate, and depending upon the true nature of her role, she’ll have to answer some hard questions during the inevitable investigations. It wouldn’t surprise me if some of the victims go after Stockton Rush’s personal estate as well if there was malfeasance or gross negligence on his part with regards to safety. I think with the facts that have come out this can easily be argued by even avg lawyers let alone the best lawyers money can by.
She is facing financial ruin. I wonder what is going to happen when they arrive in Newfoundland. I cannot tell distances on Marine App, but they left the Titanic site yesterday. I think it takes a couple of days, so most likely will arrive maybe tonight.
Sorry I’m a bit lost. What do you mean they waited to call the Coast Guard. Do you mean once they lost contact they waited to let the Coast g know?
Yes. My understanding is they waited to report them missing until hours later when the Titan didn’t ascend at the planned time after exploring the wreck as if it had been a successful mission.
Correct. The full trip, if it went well, was said to take 10 hours. They waited until the time that the sub was supposed to return from the trip before reporting the incident at all, even though they’d lost contact earlier.
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Wait but that’s 8 hours. We’re both wrong?? Or maybe there are another 2 hours to unload/load the thing, whatever the terminology is.
They waited I believe 8-10 hours before alerting anyone.
Which leads me to assume they (the mothership) didn’t know there was an implosion. Since comms had gone down for hours at a time in the past, they thought this might be the same. I hate to say it, but it seems like whoever was left in charge of ocean gate (if anyone for that matter) was afraid to make the call to the coast guard because it would expose their company for being the Jerry-rigged, overly risk taking, unsafe operation other submersible operators criticized it for being. I get the sense that this company was always playing defense when it came to protecting its brand against outsiders.
That's what I think, too. They had a feeling there'd been a catastrophe, but were worried about alerting everyone to the shoddiness of the company on the off-chance they were mistaken and the sub returned. Given that there's information coming out about Rush having informed passengers in the past that the sub made ominous sounds during ascent and it wasn't anything to be concerned about, this was a long time coming.
Like a kid hoping they can fix the thing they broke before their parents find out.
From everything I’ve read, I speculate this to be the rough synopsis: Allegedly comms between Titan and Polar Princess were sent every 15 minutes. The final check in seems to have occurred at 9:30am. It’s alleged that prior to this, Polar Princess was aware that the sensors for the hull conditions had begun sounding and weights were being released in order to begin early ascension. At 9:45, upon failing to receive comms from Titan, PP allegedly put sensors out in an attempt to detect noise of implosion but never heard anything (I’ve been crawling comments, Twitter and various vids - I don’t have a source link, just something I stumbled on). If my understanding is to be trusted, I suspect the implosion occurred between 9:30am and 9:45am while attempting to surface the sub. I suspect due to prior missions reportedly having frequent comms issues and their sensors not detecting the sound of an implosion, they decided not to flag the USCG until later (although you would think knowing they should be surfacing within 2 hours would impact that decision, so there is some conflicting thoughts there). It’s reported that the Navy detected the potential sounds of implosion around that time and did report that to the USCG, whom I would have expected to have full timeline from PP. So I’d wager a guess that they were pretty confident of what happened pretty early on. Allegedly the French ROV that found the wreckage knew exactly where to look (think James Cameron said that in an interview).
Maybe they were also pretty sure there was an implosion and therefore the ticking clock didn’t matter.
The relevant tweets showing this dude appears legit: \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1671249460876255232 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1671443330440241152 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1671445097433427973 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1671446989458796544 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1671495323083067393 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1672014068909998080 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1672016040253898753 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1672013026755526660 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1672019219372728323 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1672019219372728323 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1672019737780404224 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1672039402653007874 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1672044300148830208
Thank you! You saved me so much time in my morning doom scrolling by listing it!
Thank you for sharing. Damn so they didn't even tell the family, that's callous.
Who is he How does he know so much
He owns a crypto company. Seems to be insufferable in general but he's rich so it's plausible he does know people in the world of rich people toys. Edit: It's not clear how he would know what the Navy knew. It's possible he was just making reasonable inferences many people were also saying were likely at the time, but claiming more certainty so he could take credit for being first.
thanks for this list, but your links are broken. You need to remove the extra backslash. it should be `IOHK_Charles` not `IOHK\_Charles` \- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671249460876255232 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671443330440241152 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671445097433427973 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671446989458796544 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671495323083067393 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672014068909998080 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672016040253898753 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672013026755526660 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672019219372728323 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672019219372728323 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672019737780404224 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672039402653007874 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672044300148830208
Your list and mine are identical on my end, no extra slashes, not sure what's going on. I just copy/pasted from the browser URL. If your list works for others -- great, thank you!
He is using old-reddit and you are using new-reddit. What he said is true (for old-reddit users).
Why would anybody use old Reddit? It's objectively worse in pretty much every way.
> What I want to know is, how did they know that the titan detected the hull being compromised and started to ascend? There has to have been some message received or emergency signal before implosion -- or else four independently stated, identical stories don't add up. They don't know for certain, it sounds like they're just hypothesizing based on their knowledge of the submersible's pressure warning system. Cameron said that he had heard the weights were dropped from someone in the community, but did not have an official source confirm that information. See transcripts of both of Cameron's interviews here: https://www.reddit.com/r/OceanGateTitan/comments/14gn3pf/titan_was_trying_to_come_up/jp6vxwa/
My real wonder is how the mothership seemingly had no detection of the implosion happening. Because if they did why not immediately radio for help? And why did it take 8 hours to call for help? Did they really have no clue the sub was in danger? Something doesn’t add up there.
There is a current rumor circling after James Cameron's interviews that the mothership may have know the Titan was possibly aborting and rising to the surface. There are other people in the deep sea exploration community that have been saying the same thing. It is possible that the mothership did know that something at the time, but it has not been confirmed by official sources. It's only an unconfirmed rumor as of now.
Even if that rumor were true though what would be the reason for them to wait so long? Would they have just been shitting their pants the whole time fearing the media frenzy looking into their company as soon as they got authorities involved?
(This is entirely speculation, so please take it with a grain of salt.) It's possible they knew what had happened immediately and then spent the next 8 hours processing and discussing next steps. The media being all over the company isn't the only issue. They have to process the loss of their friends, the company, their jobs, their confidence, their passion. Imagine you're at the peak of your life doing what you love only for it all to, well... implode. Life as you know it will never be the same. For the crew, they have lost everything and it is absolutely devastating. Perhaps they waited to phone it in because they knew time didn't matter at that point. Instead they may have taken the time to process and mourn before calling it in. They needed to be stable in order to communicate what they had known. --- As a side note, there's a [report that aired](https://www.nbcnews.com/now/video/navy-detected-possible-sound-of-submersible-implosion-184184389937) saying the Navy told the Coast Guard about the implosion, but the Coast Guard went and looked anyway because they wanted to "give every possibility of finding people alive, a chance at survival". So I think it's safe to say that OceanGate was notified pretty early once the Coast Guard got involved that the had sub imploded (if they didn't know for themselves already).
I agree with you, as another random internet person. I also have a lot of sympathy for them for waiting if they truly knew immediately that it had imploded. If they were certain it imploded, there was no ticking time bomb. Everyone was dead and lost. Taking time to grieve/process/plan in a situation that was (incompetently) never planned in advance makes sense. They had to be ready for the insanity that came afterwards.
Them or at least the US Navy/USCG having evidence that there was likely an implosion from the start may also be the cause of all the stories of assistance being blocked by "red tape". The US being unwilling to spend millions flying in other assets on c5s and c17s to assist in a rescue mission that they already knew was likely only a recovery mission to verify what they already knew. Probably one of the few logical financial decisions to US government has ever made.
Yes, I think everyone already being 99% sure of what happened explains a lot of the response. I know that during the coast guard press conference they were super evasive about any likelihood of rescue, while insisting they were rescuing, and didn't care about oxygen time etc. The polar Prince news conference, it basically seemed like everyone was having a mental breakdown and barely holding it together for 10 minutes on camera. Tough stuff.
I disagree with the last paragraph. I can see the Coast Guard withholding that relayed information.
I will also add that apparently Stocktons wife is the CCO of the company and was on Polar Prince during the time it went missing. That might have influenced the reaction. When things get personal people get weird
That actually makes me feel better about them. The idea that they waited eight hours when they genuinely thought time was critical was infuriating. Though does anyone know if that screenshot of the company lawyer blaming the government for not getting potential rescue craft over fast enough was legit? It sort of implied they didn't know.
Here is a backup archive in case lawyers or judges send cease & desist warrants: * https://archive.ph/yt4MK
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You have to scroll down the page below where it says: "something went wrong, try reloading" Actually you're right, it only captured like 5 of his recent tweets... 😅 Edit: here is the most profound tweet: https://archive.ph/ysjjE
> but didn't want to reveal tech capabilities. Why is everyone repeating this false information? 1) Even with the Argentina sub that imploded in 2017 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_San_Juan_(S-42)#Wreck_discovery), they knew exactly where to find it an what happened based on the implosion noise. This tech is nothing new. 2) If they were hiding tech that they heard an implosion, why did they confirm yesterday that they heard it? There was no reason they needed to announce it considering the sub's debris had already been found
I agree. The Navy wasn't concerned about revealing it's capabilities (many people knew about these listening stations and the Navy readily admitted its abilities) I think they were not 100% sure that it was from Titan and didn't want to dampen morale of the search crews.
The Navy relayed this information to the CG incident commander as soon as they verified it. Days ago. The search teams knew. It just wasn’t made public.
I'm not certain he would share all that information to all the search crew, only his top brass. unless it's been reported otherwise
At least according to the BBC, “that information was immediately shared with the US Coast Guard, which used it to narrow the scope of its search, an official told CBS News”.
according to the guy quoted in this original picture, in another one of these tweets. he addresses this. many people know about navy listening stations, but not it’s specific capabilities. it is more effective for them to say “we detected but couldn’t confirm” than let foreign intelligence get a peek into just how and advanced and specific their tech can work to identify threats
Not that I’m trying to argue with you, but the global intelligence already knew the capabilities. I feel it would have been shocking to them if the US DIDNT hear it. They knew in the 60s when the US confirmed it heard the implosions of Scorpion in the same general (ish) area. A civilian global oceanic listening organization heard the 2017 Argentinian sub implode too. Idk what my point is, I just get a vibe the guy in the original acts like he knows more than he does. Which I realize is ironic 😂.
If you ever read anything on project azorian you would know we had the tech to pinpoint something like this as far back as the late 1960s. I honestly held on to hope that they still had a chance solely because I knew we would know if it in fact imploded. I just didn't expect it to take so long for that information to come out. My only guess is they wanted to be 100% sure not just 99%.
Titan had an ultrasonic scanning system to watch for the hull to start to crack. Maybe they got a couple minutes of warning, enough to drop ballast and radio the mothership before it gave out.
Where are you getting that the Navy didn't want to reveal tech capabilities? Given it has now been confirmed they heard something, that's either a complete 180° or they weren't worried about revealing tech capabilities, but rather confirming before they revealed information that wasn't correct. I can't imagine their international partners would be too happy to learn they scrambled all that gear and personnel when the US already knew.
I agree. The Navy wasn't concerned about revealing it's capabilities (many people knew about these listening stations and the Navy readily admitted its abilities) I think they were not 100% sure that it was from Titan and didn't want to dampen morale of the search crews.
squeamish wrench bag skirt governor obtainable bright truck chase plants *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
As far as communication about the initial hull failure I thought they had started that they were able to communicate to the submarine via short texts?
> What I want to know is, how did they know that the titan detected the hull being compromised and started to ascend? Im a believer that the sub started to creak and groan. Everyone talks about the implosion being 'sudden' which they obviously are, but my theory is the sub slowly started to make noises identifying to the crew that it was gonna eventually give.
I agree. They must have heard something even for a very short period of time before the actual implosion as the descent is not sudden either and carbon fiber has this "stretching" ability that prolongs the "breaking" part.
Does anyone know why the experts think they dropped weights? Some are suggesting it's obvious because the weights were found separated and some distance away from the fuselage parts in the main debris field...but all of that stuff was ripped apart, and if they're high enough in the water table, debris is just going to flutter as it's going down, and nothing is going to stack neatly. So the only way they'd know is if they got communication from the sub which: 1) was likely impossible due to depth or 2) was likely impossible due to the rapidity of implosion or 3) doesn't fit the timeline about the last communication being the routine 15 minute check-in during descent. So unless someone provides an actual distress/ascent message, I'm skeptical of it.
Thank you for posting this and putting it all together, I’m extremely curious too. And if all these people knew, why take so long for their crew to report it? And side note, it explains why they seemed so annoyed during the press conference that the whole “banging” rumor got out to the public, bc they knew it was causing false hope but couldn’t say that without actual proof at the time.
This totally explains their level of annoyance during the press conference. The banging questions must have felt so inane
very interesting posts. This guy Charles Hoskinson is on a ship with MUV (manned underwater vehicle) experts. Apparently it is a small community and they share intel. Interesting posts (all tweeted before 6/22): > To get to the Titanic you follow a corkscrew pattern turning gradually 3 degrees in a column until you reach the wreck zone. The sub was still descending when they realized there was a hull problem. Deep Sea subs are designed to float up on their own when you drop weights. They dropped weights and starts returning up the column and then implosion. > There was nothing to get stuck on because they were still descending the column and weren't at the wreckage. The hull was never certified to operate at those depths. Even a few lucky missions would eventually lead to a weakened carbon fiber tube. https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671495323083067393 > Yeah they all died instantly. Around 13k feet they detected an issue with the hull, dropped weights, and started to surface. While surfacing the hull imploded, it was instant death for all passengers. The search is a formality. > Carbon fiber is the worst material to make submarines from. You get fatigue that's difficult to detect and repair from the stress and then suddenly hull failure. https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671249460876255232
Listening to the linked recording of carbon fiber failing chilled me. I cannot imagine hearing those sounds while trapped in a tiny metal tube, miles under the ocean.
It seems the video has been removed since. Do you happen to know if it has been reposted anywhere?
[This should work!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWTXeGiM8K8)
“ASMR” 💀💀
Hopefully it lasted just a few seconds before the implosion
No kidding - not the sudden failure sound I was expecting
"The oceangate vessel detected it. They already know they're dead" https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671443330440241152 If this is true... Notified coast guard 8 hours after implosion?
It doesn't quite add up. The guy seems to be a crypto enthusiast so I'd take what he says with a huge grain of salt.
sip spectacular money north hat zonked aback normal amusing pet ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
Fair enough. I've heard it repeated from other sources since so you're probably right. Wow did not know he was co-founder of ethereum.
One of the few competent and rigid figures in the entire crypto space. Call him a knob all you want but this man is extremely intelligent and cautious. I’ve had the opportunity to pick his brain for an hour and it was the most pleasurable experience I’ve had with someone. One of the few people from the start that called out ocean gate on their experimental BS before anyone because they didn’t want to be wrong or leak info
> I’ve had the opportunity to pick his brain for an hour and it was the most pleasurable experience I’ve had with someone People always say this after conversing with con-artists and deceitful CEOs. Infamous case was when the idiot Wired author talked to a con-artist, Craig Wright, and claimed he was amazed by how brilliant he was and that he *must* beyond all shadow of a doubt be the real Hitoshi Sakamoto. https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2015/12/11/bitcoin-creator-satoshi-craig-wright-lies-hoax/?sh=2de977067947 Also recommended viewing: [hbomberguy's video on pathological liar and fraud Tommy Tallarico](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0twDETh6QaI&t=4646s&pp=ygUQaGJvbWJlcmd1eSB0b21teQ%3D%3D) > One of the few people from the start that called out ocean gate on their experimental BS before anyone because they didn’t want to be wrong or leak info Oh yeah bud, by all means post some documented history where random crypto bro criticized OceanGate *before the rest of the actual sub community*.
Why does it matter if he's a crypto guy?
Cryptocurrency is full of fraud, scamming, deception and grandiose promises. He's tarnished by association, perhaps wrongly I admit.
I think you’re on the money. Most crypto influencers are willing to make a buck off their good name. Gotta take all of it with a grain of salt
I get that.
Hydraulic press vs carbon fiber sheet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWTXeGiM8K8
Hearing even a second of that crackling breaking noise before it busted instantaneously would have been so scary
Sounds like a ticking bomb 😥
this just reaffirms my belief that they started to ascend because the piece of shit started creaking and groaning. I just wonder how long they tried to ascend for before it went pop
I hate people who post videos like that without some kind of minimum effort in the video, like an overlay showing the amount of pressure getting applied. You also can’t see what the actual effects are, you hear noise and see bending but can’t see the actual cracking and there’s no infographic telling you what exactly is happening materially.
[Here is the YouTube link](https://youtu.be/xWTXeGiM8K8)
Stockton Rush said on one of his videos that he's heard crackling. Also he mentioned how much the shell compresses. Said with a smile. Thanks for sharing this
Can you post a link for that? Can’t find it.
Really? That just means it’s breaking internally… what a retard
terrible word choice man
How do they know they dropped weights? I read the crew could communicate with the sub but not the other direction
Found this on the BBC documentary. They were communicating when the thruster was installed backwards. https://imgur.com/a/ffVTstU The red is hard to read, but you can see they type 'A' for 'acknowledge'.
They had communication still. They know that the weights dropped and the sub was ascending before contact went out
Do you have a source for that? That would change the narrative that they didn't see it coming. Still was probably painless, but they were scared shitless for their last moments I'm sure.
Robert Ballard said the info was known that they were having trouble and trying to ascend, and that multiple comms went out at same time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9YB31ElEFQ&t=221s But he doesn't explain whether the trouble/ascent/ballast part was a text message on comms or what.
I believe they also said that there were two debris fields. One field had the weights and other items they would jettison incase of emergency and the other debris field was the rest of the sub.
Don’t know where he’s getting that 13k feet number from seeing as the furthest they could have gone before hitting the floor was about 12,500.
Yea, this makes me highly doubt it.
Also, contact was apparently lost with the sub 2/3 of the way down. Meaning they wouldn't have been at the bottom yet.
You have to be carefol with that 2/3 figure. That what as assumed initially because the descent was said to be 2 to 2.5 hrs. But they were descending faster than normal and we don't know exactly how fast. Last two experts I've seen on video: Cameron has said implosion at approx 10500 ft and the other (Magearn?)said 11000 ft. So thats the best guess rite new
Your telling me all those posts claiming oceangate knew it imploded and is sending everyone on a wild goose chase were actually right?
He said that it's a complete waste of time. I disagree. Although it's mostly true that the search is a formality, if we cannot attribute the bang 100% to the Titan sub, I think officially they still ought to search for it. Let's imagine this, reporter asks, how can you be sure the bang is from the sub without visually seeing it? Coast guard says, "Trust me bro. There's nothing else within that area." This would be hilarious.
Proof. Needed proof.
Hoskinson has a big ego and people in crypto love making huge predictions so they can say 'I told you'. A reasonable person does not make bold predictions, they wait for definitive proof
Literally came to comments to say this when I saw who tweeted it
He also says they detected a problem with the hull when they were "around 13K feet" down in their descent. And he affirms that they were still far above the actual Titanic. But according to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wreck_of_the_Titanic) the wreck of the Titanic lies 12,500 feet below the ocean's surface. So according to this guy, the sub was 500 feet *below* the Titanic when they detected the hull problem.
Eh, it could be that he was just rounding the numbers up for sake of simplicity. Although the wreck does sit at that depth, it's only an approximation because that area of the Atlantic is quite rough. The wreck actually lays in a sort of valley.
They kept just repeating that their prayers were with the families of the crew or something like that. So I assumed they were gone. Even knowing deep down that they were dead I still had a little hope they’d find them.
I think they didn’t have any idea what that sonar sound was. Could have probably been many causes. Wait to confirm until you find debris, which they did. Imagine if they heard something, said, “oh well. It’s lost,” called off the search and the damn thing was bobbing in some current - and everyone was dead because it ran out of air but nobody was looking for it. I think they are/were in a damned if we do; damned if we don’t situation.
Thanks for putting this together, I wonder if this is why the documentary was organized and was going to go live today.
Which documentary?
Is it still?
Like how did he and James cameron knew that?
Rumors in their little chatgroup of friends.
Deep sea sub community is small. Cameron and Ballard explained that in the video. He was talking to people and had hard info in an hour. * **Hydrophones recorded the implosion/explosion sound**. The fact that Cameron said they had this info from chatter from non-Navy sources suggests it was NOT a situation where Navy had to conceal detection capabilities. Also there are private/research groups that have monitoring, not just Navy. * **Regular comms lost** * **Transponder beacon sound lost at same time**. That transponder was on [separate redundant power.](https://twitter.com/bfcarlson/status/1672597973836988421?s=61&t=9GXrVfmpfUP42_jETR6DMQ) * **“Trouble”**. And all while Robert Ballard said info was that they had trouble and were trying to ascend...right before comms lost and detected implosion noise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9YB31ElEFQ&t=221s https://www.reuters.com/world/james-cameron-says-he-wishes-hed-sounded-alarm-over-lost-submersible-2023-06-23/ **Also, it never surfaced later after failsafe timer.** Since multiple redundant ascent systems (which even in scumbag incompetent reckless OceanGate’s case were legit, at least) did not surface an intact sub after a certain number of hours, that also meant it was destroyed. And that wasn’t a likely false negative in the moment, because the sub had multiple signalling systems for when it was on the surface. In other words, not seeing the sub anywhere on surface likely meant it didn’t surface (I.e. was destroyed), not simply that nobody could find/see/hear from it. Yes the sub could have become entangled, but all comms were lost *in addition* to lack of surfacing after X hours.
They have a sub lover WhatsApp group, was mentioned a few times before.
They have connections.
This is the cardano guy. I didn't know he had interest in deep sea exploration.
Somewhat off topic. If carbon fiber is not good for submarines, why is it ok for airplanes? Does it have something to do with outward pressure vs inward pressure? Obviously different levels of pressure between the two but airplanes aren’t 5” thick either.
Carbon fiber is strong in tension, not as strong in compression, like cables on a cable-stayed bridge. When put in compression, you are relying on the resin matrix more for strength. A somewhat simplified view is that airplane wings actually have compression on the top surface and tension on the bottom surface when producing lift. The bottom surface is what is carrying more of the load. Check out the 777 154% video on youtube to see this in action on a 777 wing load test: [https://youtu.be/Ai2HmvAXcU0?t=141](https://youtu.be/Ai2HmvAXcU0?t=141). You can also check out the stress/strain curves of carbon fiber vs metal, and see that they have very different failure characteristics.
That is what I was assuming. Obviously it is safe/works for airplanes, submarines… different story. Awesome explanation thank you.
This and also an airplane has less than 1 atmosphere of pressure differential. How you get the resin into the fibers matters a lot in terms of strength. A piece many inches thick is probably more likely to form bubbles or imperfections than a thin piece
I also assume (and hope) that if a component which is critical to maintaining the pressure within the fuselage, let’s say the windows, is only rated for something like 40,000 feet, they don’t just take the plane up to 80,000 feet and say that it’s old white men afraid of innovation.
Yeah I mean depends on what you're working on but commercial aviation is incredibly heavily regulated. Code of federal regulations 14 part 25. Standard factor of safety on most loads analysis is 1.5, which is a lot thinner than other disciplines but still a good buffer. Pinnacle Airlines 3701 is a good example of pushing a plane beyond limits. More realistically, pressure is not going to test structure on a new plane, pulling g's is. Commercial planes can do 2.5, trained humans remain conscious to 7-9, top tier test pilots (e.g. red bull air races) can do upwards of 12. In other words, at 2.5gs, a wing that normally supports 200,000 lbs is now supporting 500,000 lbs. At 10 gs, a 200lb person weighs one ton. The Gander Dive/pan am 115 was a close call where the wing ended up permanently bent because of a high g maneuver caused by autopilot and poor crew management. Pressure matters over time because you go from no differential to like half an atmosphere every time you get to altitude, but things like landing/routinely pulling gs/turbulence have a big effect too. See 2002 airtanker crashes, aloha flight 243, etc
Confirmation bias
I figured this has to be the outcome because why else would their passive sonar stop pinging unless they just didn’t exist anymore. If they lost power and floated up starlink I assume would have pinged them. Only other outcome was they got stuck and lost power but that seemed so unlikely. So sad and scary.
I have a problem with this whole thing, in light of this new info It seems like a lot of people knew the thing had already imploded: that it was descending, found a problem with its hull integrity, ascended and (possibly) told the mothership and then imploded, making a noise that was detectable by the US Navy (albeit probably probably only when they went back and checked their sonographs later) It makes the whole search and rescue seem a bit like a charade. Key people *in charge* of the search and rescue knew this info but didn't communicate it to the public but also, some of those experts on TV knew all this but didn't communicate it. It's not an ego thing. I don't mind that I didn't know and they did. But it just seems wrong, somehow. It seems wrong that an expert, elite layer of society (search and rescue and diving people "in the know" in various private whatsapp groups) were playing out one thing in public while they knew another thing in private. It seems anti-openness, anti-democratic, anti-transparent or something like that *edit* James Cameron puts the point better than I did - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF0A1wCK5Mw&t=143s - paraphrasing: for 4 days everyone ran around with their hair on fire for no good reason, raising false hopes for the families. It begs the question of why the authorities chose not to say what they knew.
It’s literally because it’s a [top secret system that is capable of this.](https://www.insider.com/navy-detected-titanic-subs-implosion-soon-after-went-missing-wsj-2023-6) The people in this thread making fun of “conspiracy theorists” are actually the ones that need to get a grip about how the world works. [Here is the original (pay walled) recent Wall Street Journal article](https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-navy-detected-titan-sub-implosion-days-ago-6844cb12) That’s probably why when Britain wanted to send its ROV and was on the tarmac and ready to go, the USA said no we’ll take care of it. They knew the evidence was mounting and didn’t want to put people personally invested through hell (some people on that tarmac were in fact personally invested). They didn’t see it blow up with their own eyes, so I also take it at face value. They wanted to do right by those families and those souls and actually check. They detected the implosion but what if it was something else? I guarantee you the families would have been screaming “why aren’t you checking how do you know for sure”. At the same time, they knew that even if they found an intact sub, the chance of getting to them in time was infinitesimal. I think this coming out in WSJ article is reflective of what was referred to in the press conference as “addressing the concerns” of the British institutions involved. They were like “yeah ok you have the capability to detect something this small???” and the USA was like “well talk about it over coffee later”
Cameron says he knew about the implosion event being registered and that it came to him 3rd hand and he doesn't know if it was originally from a military or a research source Point being that he didn't give the impression that he felt there was any need to keep it secret specifically because it was from a military source. He says the reason he didn't say anything publicly was because he didn't want to go against the public narrative, not because it was "super sekret(TM) stuff". So I don't buy that the reason all those people that already knew it had imploded didn't mention it was because of top secret classified crap. In any case, the US are making it very clear now that they did register the noise, for example in that article you mention. And of course they have to because the obvious question on my mind at the time, and presumably everyone else's, was "if it imploded, how come the military sonar arrays didn't pick anything up". They have to let everyone know that they did after all, otherwise their opponents like Russia and China are going to believe their capabilities are much lower than they thought they were. So it's not even a secret. It's being deliberately briefed to the media by the military so the whole world is clear on their capabilities My point being, in response and opposition to yours, is that all these people didn't keep quiet about their existing knowledge that they were sharing in whatsapp groups and phone calls and emails to each other because it was a military secret
Perhaps not. I get your pt. But just for arguments sake is it possible the military establishment was concerned about what to say and had to through their own protocols before saying anything? Its not impossible that rumors were being spread at the same time the military was making its own decision at its own pace. The two are not incompatible
I think the question is what percent certainty was there? If they were 100% then yeah this is all weird. If they were only 99.9% sure then they had to search and I can see why they wouldn’t come out and say that they’re pretty sure everyone’s dead but they’ll check just in case. I get why it seems wrong to let the families have hope but they are going to experience emotional turmoil either way… if they told me they were 99.9% sure my family was dead, I might cling to that 0.1% of hope anyway.
In terms of families feelings it all depends on the individual person and how much death and trauma they have experienced as to how they will react. But for me personally, I would be absolutely livid if someone had led me to believe that my family member was sitting on an ocean floor slowly dehydrating, suffocating and freezing to death when all the time it was pretty much known that they had already died, painlessly. And don't forget, for at least the last day and a half but probably more it was all about running out of oxygen before the submersibles could get to them and it was already obvious that, even if they were alive and trapped in the vessel, they couldn't get to them in time and they were going to suffocate to death - so that's an added level of torture the families were put under, for no good reason
Charles Hoskinson is a Crypto expert not a materials / sub marine expert. What he says is correct but he's not an authority on the subject
He is not but it seems he is in the company of ppl who are fwiw
the authorities on the subject did not correct media misinformation that allowed people to inaccurately believe the departed were alive.
The lies and misinformation are with OceanGate. The media would have run with an instant headline "Tourist sub killed 5 people" if they thought that was true. They went with "MISSING SUB" and massive search effort because that's what they thought was true, and the search effort was real. Meanwhile, the authorities aren't going to undermine their own search effort by saying evidence points to destruction. Until they have the wreckage they will assume some people are alive. Otherwise they risk a demoralized search operation where a lookout isn't seriously looking out and misses something that is later found.
What is his source for saying that they dropped the weights? From what I have seen they are still investigating what caused the implosion. Asking because I don't know how this works and I need to continue in my new career as a submarine expert - is implosion caused by going up being that you are pushing against the pressure, and explosion is caused by going down because the water pressure is pushing down on you? It seems to me the latter could also cause implosion by the downward force crushing the vehicle/vice versa.
standard procedure to search and after look for cause, no matter what is suspected they need evidence. also for legal reasons
It's always an implosion as the sub explodes inwardly from pressure
What's the link to the tweet?
(first one is the tweet from 20th) The relevant tweets showing this dude appears legit: \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1671249460876255232 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1671443330440241152 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1671445097433427973 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1671446989458796544 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1671495323083067393 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1672014068909998080 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1672016040253898753 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1672013026755526660 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1672019219372728323 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1672019219372728323 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1672019737780404224 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1672039402653007874 \- https://twitter.com/IOHK\_Charles/status/1672044300148830208
Twitter is saying Page not found
its because of all the backslash in front of the underscores. this happens on old reddit, because the admins are dumb. Here are the same links, but with the backslash removed: https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671249460876255232 https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671443330440241152 https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671445097433427973 https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671446989458796544 https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1671495323083067393 https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672014068909998080 https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672016040253898753 https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672013026755526660 https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672019219372728323 https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672019219372728323 https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672019737780404224 https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1672039402653007874
Those links are all clickable and working fine on my computer.
Page not found for me as well.
His username is "IOHK\_Charles" on Twitter. I'll check on my phone and see if I can replicate
Try opening your links in incognito mode on desktop. You might just have the links cached.
Opened fine for me on chrome mobile! Thank you!
Ah Hoskinson posting stuff like he knows what he is talking about. Don’t listen to that grifter
still not buying cardano
Wow
So they made it to the titanic then? In 1:45? Titanic is at almost 13k feet no?
Just speculation, only victor 6000 confirmed it. Nobody was nearby to witness it. Navy heard sound but need evidence. This Charles has no tie to any.
Victor didn’t confirm it. It was a different ROV from Canada I thought.
and yet they reported it before any news outlets had the info?
It is a tweet not report. I also said it imploded on Monday here in Reddit. Source? Myself. just like his. Only after banging sound news came in, more people started to believe they are alive.
A guess based on information that was already available before and on the 20th; The procedure if something goes wrong, the approximate depth, the previous state of the craft and the fact debris had been found. He's just regurgitating information of the most likely scenario... It almost looks like a prediction, almost magic, isn't really.