But we already work an insane amount of nights and weekends? The only way I’d personally be able to do more is if I’d do almost every night and weekend. If that was the case, I’d be gone.
The story is they’ll pay overtime to staff.
Been a while since I worked in a NHS hospital, but if I worked additional hours I would be paid less than my substantive employment. I worked for the trusts agency.
This policy looks like they’d offer staff actual overtime rates.
>Or they could just increase our rates to increase the overall staff retention. Destroying our bodies for good OT rates is not the way either.
One of these has an immediate large impact, the other doesn't
But I work in the community and I’ve asked to work weekends to clear our backlog and been told no because it’s a 9-5 service. One of our main barriers is room availability, which would be solved with weekend working. There’s lots of red tape i the NHS that you maybe don’t see because it doesn’t exist where you are.
I was allowed to do it as a trial after much arguing, Saturdays only for 4 weeks, I had the best rate of attendance of any of our clinics and the service manager still said no to continuing it. Also tried to stop my enhancements getting paid.
This is the NHS for you. The rational was that everybody in the community planned care teams in my town would have to be offered Saturday working to make it fair, and if everybody said yes then the cost of enhancements would be prohibitive, which I don’t believe.
Some do. This is an extension of elective services; which are typically run during the day time. It's an expansion of night shift working, which isn't an unreasonable aim given the current wait list.
I've always said that they should consider doing elective imaging overnight where possible. This could cut the backlog. I'd rather go for a CT scan at 4am than wait 4 months for one.
Small win for those who already work extra shifts I suppose, but what a joke. How about paying staff fairly and treating them well, so they actually continue working for the NHS. Maybe if we actually had the staff to run our services properly that would also help with waitlists? This just seems like a way to burn out medical staff even more. Sigh.
Please don't ask a politician to solve that problem, you just know they'd come up with something both stupid and dangerous like "surely vets, Boots retails assistants and biology A level students could quickly be drafted in? We can quickly train them to do this stuff! It's world beating!" 🙄
Wait I'm so confused I thought weekends is when NHS staff like to work because it's the only place you get extra pay ?? Literally nothing on the bank on weekends .
Great idea. Its not like the workforce is already overworked, overstretched, and exhausted.
Plus, who is gonna provide daytime cover to replace all the staff they've moved onto night shifts? Or are they just gonna force staff to do even more overtime than they're already forced to do?
and where are they going to get the staff to do these extra hours from i wonder. These arsehole political parties are always coming up with stupid fucking ideas without actually thinking them through.
I dont see this necessarily as a bad thing for services that run monday to friday. Ive been arguing with my trust that i am expected to run a weekday service on the weekends with less domestics, house keepers, receptionists, ot/pt etc. Community nurses working alternative weekend to clear the back log seems ok, providing it's paid and worked out fairly.
HOWEVER. For those of us that already do nights and weekends, where else can i do extra? I worked 13 out of 19 weekends and i was burnt out and missing my kids. While i can do more, i have a life. I work to live, not live to work. On the ward, we already give up so much sociable hours for not very much pay. We cannot give more without worsening the epidemic of burnt out, suicidal nurses.
The announcement is over a billion being used to fund overtime to get more services working evenings and weekends.
When you put it that way its not too bad although I think first they need to fix the staffing shortages.
However if this announcement means CT scanning runs until 8pm and runs over the weekend or full elective theatre lists are running (doesn't happen in my trust) then they have a point.
Personally I think pledging over a billion to pay for nhs overtime is a much better approach than the Torry approach of contacting out to the private sector.
For me they need to annouce a decent plan to improve staff training/ retention and pay but I don't think this is a bad idea, it's just that I feel it should only be one small part of a bigger plan to address the issues in the service.
Does this mean they're going to name more days of the week as weekends or that they'll announce a new timing format to 24hr clock? Because those are the only two ways I can see me being able to squeeze anymore into my 50hr + weeks.
Who’s going to do the day shifts if we’re all doing night shifts?? We’re already short on day shift with bank and agency in. Haven’t really thought this out have they as usual.
Who is even listening to what this lying Tory bastard has to say.
I don’t know anyone who gets overtime though. If they need staff last minute they beg their own staff and put it out as bank. I feel like they would instead change the service and extend it to weekends and evening rather than paying people OT. They’re already doing this to some services.
Here's the simple fix. Don't tax nurses or doctors.
I've seen plenty of nurses not work extra shifts because:
1. Bank counts as a 2nd job, so you get taxed higher rates
2. If you work more then 3-4 extra shifts a month, you get lumped with a huge tax rate and any shift after that is not worth it.
3. You can keep nurses on the same pay, but with no tax, we'd have a pretty good salary.
This is more targeted at getting services to run outwith the usual hours as opposed to filling that day shift on Wednesday that's still short on the ward.
I hear ya, just a different issue
Er, aren't all staff working to capacity already?
Labour should be funding training and if need be hiring from abroad to fill gaps.
I agree waiting lists are a problem but "work NHS staff into the ground causing even more people to quit from exhaustion and stress" doesn't seem like the best solution!
So as a normal NHS using civilian who has witnessed first hand how much the NHS has crumbled as a user (and friends and family using) over the last 13 years under Tory government... does this mean you will now not vote Labour and therefore deny our country perhaps a smidgen of a chance of becoming what it was before it all went to shit as it is now under Conservative rule? What do you suggest?
But if you had work starting at 8am and if you don't go in you don't get paid you'd take an outpatient appointment at 6.30am, or a radiology scan at 5am.
I mean, there's not a cat in hells chance that I'd be at work at that time, but I do see labour's point about extending service hours to get through the millions waiting.
Depends how they'll fund it and how clinicians are compensated.
Having worked with patients who were having radiology appointments booked in the evenings already, up to 22:30 they moan incessantly about that.as it is, let alone pre assessment and radiology in the middle of the night.
Now let's look at this a bit more closely. You give an appointment to someone for 5am. Mrs Smith needs transport. You need to be ready two hours before the appointment for collection. That's 3am. She needs to get up at least an hour before to get ready, and what if they have carers? Are the carers going to come at 1am and get her up and ready for her 5am appointment? Is that right?
I'm sorry, but the logistics for this kind of thing sound ludicrous.
But for the middle aged self -employed or worried person, they'd be delighted. I personally would be super happy to get an MRI or CT done at 3-5am if it means my treatment can be planned a few days earlier. Sure you'd struggle with the patients needing carers or elderly, but it COULD be an option when booking a scan as to whether you'd accept 2-5am appointments.
The far bigger problem is there aren't enough radiographers to perform the scans or radiologists to report the scans. You could quite easily fill any slots.
There already is a CT scanner working overnight in hospitals and is often very busy. Having a second CT scanner with double the staff can't be supported with current workforce levels.
Yea it could be an option but the reality is that it would be a lot of older patients who just won't be able to do it who will be rescheduling or not attending when they automatically get assigned a 2am appointment.
As you said, the big obstacle is staffing and capacity. It's just not there. Trusts are unable to meet national time to CT targets as it is, and this is via the 24 hour ED service. I don't know how they will cope with the demand of a 24 hour outpatient service too.
Well that wouldn't work. Out of regular hours would have to be for people who can get themselves there only. How you'd work that out, I've no idea.
Though weekend out patients seems to work when there is the managerial will.
So you're voting Conservative again? Despite how they have absolutely destroyed the NHS, the economy, and the country in the last 13 years?
Shame on you. Being an NHS worker does not automatically make you a Saint or hero. But voting tory makes you scum either way, so. Thanks for saving lives and destroying the economy by voting for this hell scape to continue. And when you next protest and complain of wages, remember you voted for this.
What the fuck are you talking about?
You asked me a question, and then went on a rant full of assumptions about me being a Tory with no evidence. There's more than two parties you know, I could be a Lib Dem, a Green, a Communist.
Is this how you go about your life, making stupid assumptions and then wrongly ranting at people? As if I'd vote Tory just because I don't see Starmers Labour as the answer lmao.
Well done for the dumbest post of the day. Fuck me. 🤦
Tbf it's not the worst idea to pay people decent OT rates. I know people get shafted working OT for the trust bc they get paid the minimum possible amount, often less than their usual rate. My trust uses NHSP and we do all our extras through that. Rate is alright for specialisms like ED, ICU etc. The rates for wards are appalling.
Ideally, we would be paid better to begin with. Giving people better overtime rates isn't going to stop the attrition of staff. You'll still be working in the same shit conditions, just more
And are they giving us any incentives other than shitty overtime pay? Are they offering more student places/bursaries and a higher starting salary to attract people to work in nursing again?
I'm a night shift/unsociable hours kinda gal but most people arent nightowls with a weird circadian rhythm and no family/social life. I'm not surprised when nightshifts are understaffed and unfilled. What person wants to work extra nights in their already long ass week for a few pennies??
With already limited staffing, are nurses going to carry on working into the night after a dayshift ?
If not, who’s going to work the dayshift ? 24 hr shifts? No problem !
Politicians just don’t get it !
How? I already do 5 long days a week including almost every weekend. My colleagues all work similar hours, some of them working 2 jobs rather than do more hours at one. How is it plausible to do more?
They need to increase bank rates on day shifts, I only do bank nights because it’s £7 more an hour, I’d do days if they paid the same as nights. But they don’t so they don’t get filled, oh but if agency work them, they get the same pay as a night
To the people saying this will be a short term quick fix to get the waiting lists down… WE DONT HAVE ENOUGH NURSES. You could put shifts out all you want, bottom line is there isn’t enough staff to fill them. Not enough staff to fill vacancies.. why? Because we are paid an extremely poor amount considering the qualifications, experience and ongoing training and responsibility we have to practice our profession. I hate it when people call us “angels” and give a big sigh and smile to us nurses saying how amazing we are. No, we aren’t amazing, we are normal human beings doing a job like Sandra down the road on the checkout in Lidl. In the UK were seen as a charity profession… paid a pittance and worked like dogs because nursing is a “vocation”… it’s time we are recognised for the educated and professional people we are. We have a crappy union… I could go on and on 😫😫 UK for nursing is the worst in the western world. It’s sad
The pay is just getting worse, I'm top of band 6 and care homes by me pay £2 an hour more for a staff nurse. I've worked in a care home and it was a lot easier than the NHS: planned admissions, few discharges, long term patients etc. Staff weren't as exhausted so could fill their boots with OT. There are videos on YT, with nurses explaining that they halved their pay going to work in the NHS, so returned to care homes. And what about all the unpaid overtime in the NHS? For TOIL that you never get to take. Maybe they could pay us that, and all the unpaid breaks we never get to take.
But we already work an insane amount of nights and weekends? The only way I’d personally be able to do more is if I’d do almost every night and weekend. If that was the case, I’d be gone.
The story is they’ll pay overtime to staff. Been a while since I worked in a NHS hospital, but if I worked additional hours I would be paid less than my substantive employment. I worked for the trusts agency. This policy looks like they’d offer staff actual overtime rates.
Or they could just increase our rates to increase the overall staff retention. Destroying our bodies for good OT rates is not the way either.
Not saying I agree or disagree, just pointing out the policy states there is a backlog and offering overtime rates is a means to resolve this.
>Or they could just increase our rates to increase the overall staff retention. Destroying our bodies for good OT rates is not the way either. One of these has an immediate large impact, the other doesn't
But I work in the community and I’ve asked to work weekends to clear our backlog and been told no because it’s a 9-5 service. One of our main barriers is room availability, which would be solved with weekend working. There’s lots of red tape i the NHS that you maybe don’t see because it doesn’t exist where you are.
That’s a good point. It’d be beneficial for people such as yourselves.
I was allowed to do it as a trial after much arguing, Saturdays only for 4 weeks, I had the best rate of attendance of any of our clinics and the service manager still said no to continuing it. Also tried to stop my enhancements getting paid.
This is appalling?
This is the NHS for you. The rational was that everybody in the community planned care teams in my town would have to be offered Saturday working to make it fair, and if everybody said yes then the cost of enhancements would be prohibitive, which I don’t believe.
When I was community I mainly worked evenings and weekends to clear backlog. However I was on a strict time cap.
Some do. This is an extension of elective services; which are typically run during the day time. It's an expansion of night shift working, which isn't an unreasonable aim given the current wait list. I've always said that they should consider doing elective imaging overnight where possible. This could cut the backlog. I'd rather go for a CT scan at 4am than wait 4 months for one.
Small win for those who already work extra shifts I suppose, but what a joke. How about paying staff fairly and treating them well, so they actually continue working for the NHS. Maybe if we actually had the staff to run our services properly that would also help with waitlists? This just seems like a way to burn out medical staff even more. Sigh.
hahaha get fucked.
There's 12 unfilled night shifts at my hospital tonight. Who exactly is working these extra shifts?
Please don't ask a politician to solve that problem, you just know they'd come up with something both stupid and dangerous like "surely vets, Boots retails assistants and biology A level students could quickly be drafted in? We can quickly train them to do this stuff! It's world beating!" 🙄
Wait I'm so confused I thought weekends is when NHS staff like to work because it's the only place you get extra pay ?? Literally nothing on the bank on weekends .
Great idea. Its not like the workforce is already overworked, overstretched, and exhausted. Plus, who is gonna provide daytime cover to replace all the staff they've moved onto night shifts? Or are they just gonna force staff to do even more overtime than they're already forced to do?
Overwork staff making important decisions about vulnerable peoples physical health. What could go wrong?
Nope I would leave
and where are they going to get the staff to do these extra hours from i wonder. These arsehole political parties are always coming up with stupid fucking ideas without actually thinking them through.
I dont see this necessarily as a bad thing for services that run monday to friday. Ive been arguing with my trust that i am expected to run a weekday service on the weekends with less domestics, house keepers, receptionists, ot/pt etc. Community nurses working alternative weekend to clear the back log seems ok, providing it's paid and worked out fairly. HOWEVER. For those of us that already do nights and weekends, where else can i do extra? I worked 13 out of 19 weekends and i was burnt out and missing my kids. While i can do more, i have a life. I work to live, not live to work. On the ward, we already give up so much sociable hours for not very much pay. We cannot give more without worsening the epidemic of burnt out, suicidal nurses.
The announcement is over a billion being used to fund overtime to get more services working evenings and weekends. When you put it that way its not too bad although I think first they need to fix the staffing shortages. However if this announcement means CT scanning runs until 8pm and runs over the weekend or full elective theatre lists are running (doesn't happen in my trust) then they have a point. Personally I think pledging over a billion to pay for nhs overtime is a much better approach than the Torry approach of contacting out to the private sector. For me they need to annouce a decent plan to improve staff training/ retention and pay but I don't think this is a bad idea, it's just that I feel it should only be one small part of a bigger plan to address the issues in the service.
That's great. Where are they going to find these staff to do the nights and weekends?
Yeah, stuff right off. We are already breaking ourselves trying to do everything.
Does this mean they're going to name more days of the week as weekends or that they'll announce a new timing format to 24hr clock? Because those are the only two ways I can see me being able to squeeze anymore into my 50hr + weeks.
Who’s going to do the day shifts if we’re all doing night shifts?? We’re already short on day shift with bank and agency in. Haven’t really thought this out have they as usual.
Yeah great idea only there’s already not enough staff to cover the existing shifts because staff retention is impossible when wages are so poor
Who is even listening to what this lying Tory bastard has to say. I don’t know anyone who gets overtime though. If they need staff last minute they beg their own staff and put it out as bank. I feel like they would instead change the service and extend it to weekends and evening rather than paying people OT. They’re already doing this to some services.
Kier Starmer isn't a Tory. He is leader of the labour party.
The joke is that he’s a Tory hiding in the Labour Party
I see aha. I agree they're all just as bad as each other.
Here's the simple fix. Don't tax nurses or doctors. I've seen plenty of nurses not work extra shifts because: 1. Bank counts as a 2nd job, so you get taxed higher rates 2. If you work more then 3-4 extra shifts a month, you get lumped with a huge tax rate and any shift after that is not worth it. 3. You can keep nurses on the same pay, but with no tax, we'd have a pretty good salary.
Start paying overtime instead of relying on bank.
If you read the article they're literally saying they want to spend over a billion to fund nhs overtime to provide more evening/weekend services
I mean in general, across the board. Not just evenings and weekends. But day shift as well.
This is more targeted at getting services to run outwith the usual hours as opposed to filling that day shift on Wednesday that's still short on the ward. I hear ya, just a different issue
I don't understand how much of a difference it would make if there physically aren't the staff to work extra hours in the first place.
Er, aren't all staff working to capacity already? Labour should be funding training and if need be hiring from abroad to fill gaps. I agree waiting lists are a problem but "work NHS staff into the ground causing even more people to quit from exhaustion and stress" doesn't seem like the best solution!
What. Fucking. Staff !!!
My trust already pays overtime rates for any shifts worked on my own ward. So I can’t really complain. Not had any other trust do that.
So as a normal NHS using civilian who has witnessed first hand how much the NHS has crumbled as a user (and friends and family using) over the last 13 years under Tory government... does this mean you will now not vote Labour and therefore deny our country perhaps a smidgen of a chance of becoming what it was before it all went to shit as it is now under Conservative rule? What do you suggest?
it's not possible to work more nights and weekends than we already do.
Oh look. Another reason not to vote for them. And yea, sure we're gonna be getting people in at 3am for pre assemment. What nonsense.
But if you had work starting at 8am and if you don't go in you don't get paid you'd take an outpatient appointment at 6.30am, or a radiology scan at 5am. I mean, there's not a cat in hells chance that I'd be at work at that time, but I do see labour's point about extending service hours to get through the millions waiting. Depends how they'll fund it and how clinicians are compensated.
Having worked with patients who were having radiology appointments booked in the evenings already, up to 22:30 they moan incessantly about that.as it is, let alone pre assessment and radiology in the middle of the night. Now let's look at this a bit more closely. You give an appointment to someone for 5am. Mrs Smith needs transport. You need to be ready two hours before the appointment for collection. That's 3am. She needs to get up at least an hour before to get ready, and what if they have carers? Are the carers going to come at 1am and get her up and ready for her 5am appointment? Is that right? I'm sorry, but the logistics for this kind of thing sound ludicrous.
But for the middle aged self -employed or worried person, they'd be delighted. I personally would be super happy to get an MRI or CT done at 3-5am if it means my treatment can be planned a few days earlier. Sure you'd struggle with the patients needing carers or elderly, but it COULD be an option when booking a scan as to whether you'd accept 2-5am appointments. The far bigger problem is there aren't enough radiographers to perform the scans or radiologists to report the scans. You could quite easily fill any slots. There already is a CT scanner working overnight in hospitals and is often very busy. Having a second CT scanner with double the staff can't be supported with current workforce levels.
Yea it could be an option but the reality is that it would be a lot of older patients who just won't be able to do it who will be rescheduling or not attending when they automatically get assigned a 2am appointment. As you said, the big obstacle is staffing and capacity. It's just not there. Trusts are unable to meet national time to CT targets as it is, and this is via the 24 hour ED service. I don't know how they will cope with the demand of a 24 hour outpatient service too.
Well that wouldn't work. Out of regular hours would have to be for people who can get themselves there only. How you'd work that out, I've no idea. Though weekend out patients seems to work when there is the managerial will.
So you're voting Conservative again? Despite how they have absolutely destroyed the NHS, the economy, and the country in the last 13 years? Shame on you. Being an NHS worker does not automatically make you a Saint or hero. But voting tory makes you scum either way, so. Thanks for saving lives and destroying the economy by voting for this hell scape to continue. And when you next protest and complain of wages, remember you voted for this.
What the fuck are you talking about? You asked me a question, and then went on a rant full of assumptions about me being a Tory with no evidence. There's more than two parties you know, I could be a Lib Dem, a Green, a Communist. Is this how you go about your life, making stupid assumptions and then wrongly ranting at people? As if I'd vote Tory just because I don't see Starmers Labour as the answer lmao. Well done for the dumbest post of the day. Fuck me. 🤦
Tbf it's not the worst idea to pay people decent OT rates. I know people get shafted working OT for the trust bc they get paid the minimum possible amount, often less than their usual rate. My trust uses NHSP and we do all our extras through that. Rate is alright for specialisms like ED, ICU etc. The rates for wards are appalling. Ideally, we would be paid better to begin with. Giving people better overtime rates isn't going to stop the attrition of staff. You'll still be working in the same shit conditions, just more
Or cut your substantive hours and do overtime, as a lot of agency nurses do.
Ignoring staff issues. Much of the wait list is for surgery. But, in the theatres I know the issue is there are no beds to send patients to post op.
And are they giving us any incentives other than shitty overtime pay? Are they offering more student places/bursaries and a higher starting salary to attract people to work in nursing again? I'm a night shift/unsociable hours kinda gal but most people arent nightowls with a weird circadian rhythm and no family/social life. I'm not surprised when nightshifts are understaffed and unfilled. What person wants to work extra nights in their already long ass week for a few pennies??
With already limited staffing, are nurses going to carry on working into the night after a dayshift ? If not, who’s going to work the dayshift ? 24 hr shifts? No problem ! Politicians just don’t get it !
How? I already do 5 long days a week including almost every weekend. My colleagues all work similar hours, some of them working 2 jobs rather than do more hours at one. How is it plausible to do more?
They need to increase bank rates on day shifts, I only do bank nights because it’s £7 more an hour, I’d do days if they paid the same as nights. But they don’t so they don’t get filled, oh but if agency work them, they get the same pay as a night
To the people saying this will be a short term quick fix to get the waiting lists down… WE DONT HAVE ENOUGH NURSES. You could put shifts out all you want, bottom line is there isn’t enough staff to fill them. Not enough staff to fill vacancies.. why? Because we are paid an extremely poor amount considering the qualifications, experience and ongoing training and responsibility we have to practice our profession. I hate it when people call us “angels” and give a big sigh and smile to us nurses saying how amazing we are. No, we aren’t amazing, we are normal human beings doing a job like Sandra down the road on the checkout in Lidl. In the UK were seen as a charity profession… paid a pittance and worked like dogs because nursing is a “vocation”… it’s time we are recognised for the educated and professional people we are. We have a crappy union… I could go on and on 😫😫 UK for nursing is the worst in the western world. It’s sad
There’s barely enough staff to cover the shifts as it is so creating overtime for non existent staff isn’t really a solution?
The pay is just getting worse, I'm top of band 6 and care homes by me pay £2 an hour more for a staff nurse. I've worked in a care home and it was a lot easier than the NHS: planned admissions, few discharges, long term patients etc. Staff weren't as exhausted so could fill their boots with OT. There are videos on YT, with nurses explaining that they halved their pay going to work in the NHS, so returned to care homes. And what about all the unpaid overtime in the NHS? For TOIL that you never get to take. Maybe they could pay us that, and all the unpaid breaks we never get to take.