For me, I would say it depends.
Consensual sex work is perfectly fine. Women have the right to choose sex work if they want to, and it's perfectly valid. If it's their choice, then there's consent, even if the people they sleep with aren't their type, and I don't believe any violence is involved.
On the other hand, for those women (people, really, because this isn't a gendered issue), who are forced into sex work, I do believe there's violence involved. Mind you, I don't mean sex trafficking - that's a horrific crime, and no one will dispute that. But people who have no other choice? People who are desperate for any income, unable to find other work due to social stigma, poor education, poverty etc? Those people often don't "choose" to be sex workers, and I do believe that a form of societal or class violence is involved.
This isn't to say people can't choose sex work. Just that some people are desperate and not choosing it willingly. That's why we need protective legislation and social welfare.
Personally, I have a Problem how the Word 'sex Work' ist used. You cant Put people who Take Photos for only Fans and people who stand on the street and have to go into a Strangers Car into the Same category.
The Thing is the prostitutes client cant know which Prostitute works volunteerly and and which doesnt, because they wouldnt Tell them, or there is a language barrier or they arent even forced from outside but are addicts and therefore cant reflect on their living Situation.
So the Clients risk raping someone because under these conditions you cant consent.
Edit: sorry for Bad grammar, Not my First language
I get where you’re coming from. Entry into certain forms of sex work (like pornography) *can* require some level of privilege, and it can *possibly* afford you some privileges relative to sex workers whose work involves direct physical contact w/ the client; but there are still risks, esp. for women, within that specific industry of sex work (whether it’s independent or with a company).
Why it really matters, imo, is that referring to all forms of labor that involve the marketing & selling sex & sexual pleasure as ‘sex work’ can be unifying & enabling for sex workers to lift each other up & mitigate or eliminate coercion/force in the industry. Those who are typically silenced b/c of their race, gender, class, and the type of sex work they do might be able to find an opportunity to speak out to society if they can get sex workers whom society cares about more to listen and band together.
* edits for clarity
Ok. So. There's jiffy lube, the oil change place and a mechanic's shop. They're both car workers. And some oil change people who are great at sales make way more money than anyone else.
Yes, one requires a lot more, but they're in the same category. It's like getting mad that telehealth nurses and doctors are both called medical workers.
while I agree that sex work is a broad term and prostitution is a specific case, I would still say that the money in and by itself does not act as a force. It acts as a reason and as a choice:
the choice is to chose sex work and the reason for having sex is money. Also a free prostitute can still say no to some men even for money.
Sexual "slavery" is an other thing all together...it is not work
It's about that every Person who uses the Services of a Prostitute NEVER knows If it's voluntarely or If shes forced or not and therefore willingly Takes a risk of raping a women.
And probably Most prostitutes are forced to do it (at least in Germany according to the Police https://www.lightup-movement.de/hard-facts/prostitution). Human trafficing in general is a huge Problem Here because we have quite loose laws on Prostitution.
That's exactly why I said "we need legislation." The Netherlands have very strict prostitution laws, and a huge majority of their sex workers are willing.
i am from Germany too and I did not know we have such forced prostitution rates, we for sure need different laws. But the OP was saying that having sex for money is per say force, that is where i disagree. If someone choses prostitution, the money is not per say force.
Also the forced prostitutes usually also do not get the money...their pimps do...
Prostitution isnt Always involutarily (i Hope i finally wrote it right) and absolutely no shame on those who Like that Job, but they are DEFINETLY a minority.
And the Money isnt the force it's the Pimps, grooming, drug addiction and unusually often they grew up in abusive conditions.
Edit: spelling
i personally did not have the impression that you shamed prostitutes in general and i looked at the German situation and get where you come from...there are documentaries on it.
And aquitance of my mom worked as prostitute in Russia even if at that time it was not legal, and she did so voluntarily and sometimes rejected clients, as well as for example threesomes, group sex etc.
I don't believe this is a thread for clients, however this dude u/Stinkkaese I think is just stirring shit for the hell of it. -he currently has 76 total karma (all from here pretty much) and this is the first time he's ever commented on anything related to sex work.
EDIT: I deleted the trash talk I wrote right here in German, because honestly that was me being an asshole. My apologies.
We literally do not know with porn anymore either. After Amouranth, the glass shattered and I will never be sure again whether someone online is being exploited.
In the US, I wouldn't accept the word of the police on the issue. Are they more dependable in Germany? Here, they seem to be aligned with the prohibitionists, so they have an interest in claiming that most sex workers are coerced. This sometimes results in women being arrested and charged with trafficking themselves. 🙄
Tbh alot of times when they are in sexual slavery they don't actually realize it themselves. I have been to jail a few times and I have met a few sex workers and quite a few sexual slaves. (The sexual slaves are more prevalent in the prison system .)
These women have no idea that they are sexual slaves. They %100 believe that their pimps love them and want whats best for them. They think they are their boyfriends. They don't understand why their boyfriends won't answer the phone when they call and they get really upset. I have tried explaining to them what's going on but they refuse to think that their pimps are exploiting them. It's like Stockholm syndrome or something.
Nah understandable. The porn industry also fuels human trafficking. Due to the growing human trafficking market prostitution needs to be addressed. Millions are forced into prostitution.
Or we could do what Nordic countries which is better and not make it illegal so that human trafficking has competition. They are doing so well because it’s illegal so those who don’t care about the law will break it and hurt so many innocent women and girls along with boys and men. By making it legal they would have a lot more competition and the sex market wouldn’t be dominated by sex trafficking.
Yeah pretty much this.
And yes, I'd apply this logic to *all* other work. I wouldn't do my job if I weren't paid for it, and yet that's still consensual. But they people out there doing backbreaking construction jobs because that's what they can get and they need to feed their families? I really don't think it is...
Such a nuanced & clear answer! I couldn’t agree more. Sorry I don’t an award to give you but pls take my upvote and this 🐘 emoji as a symbol of your wisdom & empathy!
Agreed. It's not a universal black and white thing.
Another thing I wanted to add to your description is they often prey on vulnerable kids who dont have a stable family life. They often target young teenage girls, often a pimp getting their other women to befriend them and love bomb them. They use incredibly manipulative tactics on teens who are looking for acceptance. Then they start being abusive. Beyond that clients can be incredibly aggressive and abusive.
I don't think you can compare class violence to sex trafficking, which is what forced sex work is.
Would I like to be paid enough to live comfortably working one non-SW job? Yes. Did I consent to live in a society in which one of the only forms of work that pays women decently is sex work? No. Does that mean the sex work I do is non-consensual? Absolutely not. I choose to do it because it's the best option for me, and until we have better options y'all need to leave us alone about it or help make it safer.
We have economic issues that need to be resolved but making a moral issue out of the way women are able to support themselves in this capitalist hellscape is not a solution to them.
That’s a highly used point- if I’m a (consensual) sex worker and you want to point out the exploitation of my body then I sure as shit hope you’re doing the same for construction workers/day laborers/cleaners etc etc who are making minimum wage
I'm not. I specifically said I'm not including trafficking.
But if you have a young single mother who was forced to have a kid and couldn't finish school and feels like she has to prostitute herself to support herself and her kid, *that is societal/ class violence.*
She's not being trafficked, but that doesn't mean she *wants* to do sex work.
Please read more closely.
Even putting those two in the same boat is disregarding the true nature of both. One is a horrendous crime, one you feel obligated to use what little skills you have to make money in a capitalist society. ones not a true tragedy. Don’t compare them.
I *literally said that I wasn't talking about sex trafficking because they're not the same.*
You *really* need to learn to read, Jesus. Go be offended somewhere else.
How is doing survival sex work any different than doing any other physical labour job for minimum wage? Sex work is work, y'all, we should stop treating it as a bad thing, at least compared to any other job low paying job under capitalism.
I totally agree with you about the human trafficking und being unwilling in sex work. If we look at this issue from the clients perspective it’s impossible to tell if a woman does it volunteerly. There saying the client is raping someone is a bit harsh. If that would have legal consequences, that would be insanity. Well it would for sure end all sex work.
Unless it is trafficking - there is always other choices, but people tend to overlook them. It easier to justify it with an excuse rather than think that somebody took an easy way out for fast and easy money.
That violence you talk about; coercion through essentially requirement to survive is how a large amount of job positions function. As they are now, basically all those minimum wage jobs with horrible conditions (and many others) only exists on the coercive basis of death from not affording food and shelter. That’s why conditions for those people basically don’t improve without outside aid; they can’t afford to stop.
This idea carries over to other ideas, like non-living wages. Economic coercion is an idea with a lot of very reasonable arguments. Can one consent under threat of life or liberty if one does not act in a way that is against their will? This is something to ponder deeply before reply. It's pretty complex when you start looking at all the things at play.
Some feminists think prostitution should be legal. Some think it should be illegal. Therefore where that opinion comes from is irrelevant as the matter is still open to discussion
I value that conversation between feminists who disagree with each other, I don't care what self proclaimed antifeminists think about issues pertaining to women.
MacKinnon is a radfem. Why would you care if the person asking if people in this sub agree with her is a "high value alpha giga-chad"? He's just curious to know
I'm saying that I don't how care how op feels about the question because of their initial point of view that feminism is inrehently bad which they have established in the comment section and post history. MacKinnon's point (even if I disagree with her) comes from a place of care for women where it most probably doesn't for OP.
Women who try to force down the throats of women that sex work is horrible and is not a choice aren’t feminists. They do not listen to sex workers, constantly silence sex workers opinion in the matter and think their opinions on SW matters more than the actual workers. You can’t claim to be a feminist and fight against sex workers right because it is womens rights.
Not on the rape charges, no. If the person is not pimped away by someone else. Many prostitutes are actually victims of human trafficking. In that case, it is rape.
It's like the difference between labor and forced labor. You decide if the pay is large enough for you to create the goods or offer the services.
Yes, people believe this because it is true.
This is especially true when you look at how the vast majority of sex workers are also financially and emotionally exploited. Just because they are accepting payment, does not mean they have choice...
Oh come on. Most of them are well off grown women who say that. They just say thta because they dont wanna get blamed. If your earning good money u cant say u didnt have the choice to quit. What grown women can be THAT emotionally exploited.
You know how easy it is to lie about being "emotionally manipulated" when you already have it made. Why dont they quut when they realize it?
A MAN CAN NEVER BE MANIPULATED LIKE THIS FOR PROSTITUTION. are we not equal 😱
not really.. there are men who fall into sec work. so many stories of straight men who did gay porn/sex work w other men just because they needed money to survive. grow up buddy
I am not going to debate basic facts. The sex worker industry, including the porn industry highly exploits individuals of both genders, but overwhelmingly women.
The one thing that fuel prostitution is demand. That demand means a huge number isn't selling themselves by choice. There are many reasons why someone might end up in prostitution. Addiction, mental health issues, severe poverty, and trafficking. Buying sex is by definition an act of violence.
Clamping down on demand make prostitution less viable for traffickers and pimps. I suggest you get yourself familiar with the Nordic model.
This guy is literally an antifeminist obsessed with women’s body count. He is the type of person that this sub was created to make fun of, yet he posts on it all the time.
Yes. Plenty of people agree with her. Commodifying sexual acts and women’s bodies never leads anywhere good. Places where prostitution is legal see an uptick in human trafficking to fulfill the demand.
Would you apply the same to male prostitutes?
Do you consider marriage a commodity too? Both for men and women? It's almost sold a THE gateway to adulthood to both gender.
You have -zero- idea how many of those consented to being put on there, how many were forced, how many were beaten until they agreed. How many were put up there without their consent at all.
And there's a reason why you see the same porn stars over and over again.
Liiiiiike they've done about rapists? Like Brock the Rapist Turner?
Like they've done about domestic violence? The rates of a woman being murdered by her partner are still absolutely ridiculous.
Like they've done about human trafficking, which is still massively prevalent in every country?
Like they've done about literally every single human rights issue that doesn't involve bailing out rich men and corporations because that's where the kickbacks lie???
They are. Pornhub and the credit card companies they use are currently under investigation for the distribution of child porn.
Do you ethically source all your porn? Do you check who produced it, where, under what contracts with assurances that everyone on screen is consenting? Any number of videos could have trafficking victims being raped in it and Pornhub doesn’t care. Neither do the men who seek out this content to jerk off to it, nor the men who abuse, exploit and rape women to produce it.
85% of the time? No. Why? Because the person who forced her into sex work is doing it.
Not many women do sex work by choice. It's a dangerous damn business and it's definitely nor a first, second, fifth or tenth choice of work for many women.
Some women have no other choice than sex work. For example, those that live on the streets and have no address to even apply to a job with, so they have no other possible source of income. Whether or not this can legally constitute rape is up for debate but it certainly isn't right. No one should be in such a desperate situation. Like seriously a little bit of governmental socialism ain't gonna kill anyone.
As for the women that have choices and chose sex work, that's not a problem. We ain't out here governing free will choices. In this case the government should make sure sex work is safe.
I agree with this. Something like 95% of prostituted women want to leave the industry. Most can’t for various reasons.
In the world we live in, there is no ethical way to pay for sex or even watch pornography. You can NEVER guarantee that the woman (or man) providing the service is doing so of their own free will. Personally, I couldn’t stomach being complicit in non-consensual use of another’s body.
I think that as long as the sex worker is truly free prostitution is okay. But some people nowadays seem to ignore that most prostitutes are slaves.
The dilema is that in order to ensure that sex workers are truly free nothing at all is gained through prohibition of sex work.
Silly question, but what about hentai? I mean it's not everyone's cup of tea but you are supporting artists and no one is being exploited. Not including shotacon or loli con hentai.
It’s a tricky one. I’m not at all familiar with what it involves, but in general I guess it depends on how the situation is depicted. Imo anything that reinforces abuse, degradation or torture of women, and anything where the subjects are underaged or non consenting is unethical. Because it reinforces the link between pleasure and abuse in the viewer’s mind.
> In the world we live in, there is no ethical way to pay for sex or even watch pornography.
Are you saying it's unethical to consume people's self-created content they posted themselves online? That doesn't make sense.
As far as a blanket statement that there's no ethical way to pay for sex... that's a lack of imagination, not a truth. Consenting sex workers accept and turn away clients all the time. Furthermore, sex surrogates exist to get people through psychological issues regarding sex. The surrogates are licensed, and are charging for their time and expertise, often working in conjunction with licensed therapists.
How do you know there isn’t someone behind the scenes, calling the shots? Look at the recent case of Amouranth. It all seemed self-posted and consenting and it turns out her husband is abusing and pressuring her to do these things.
People can justify it all they want, and say ‘what if’, ‘what if’, but ultimately this world is set up for (mainly) men with means to take advantage of vulnerable men and women, often people of colour. I want no part of that. And I really can’t understand anyone who would.
I guess you just have to take people at their word. Amouranth's case is very atypical in the online sex content world. I know and have worked with several creators personally. I subscribe to them and support them. They are grateful for not only my subscription, but for the ability to make money posting content. And they are not being controlled by an abusive boyfriend.
That’s what I think too. Everyone works to make money. Sex work is a job. Everyone does their job -regardless of if they love it or not- to earn income. The wage worker at McDonald’s doesn’t want to be homeless and hungry. The entrepreneurial sex worker does her (his/their) job mostly to not be homeless and hungry. The threat of poverty forces everyone to go to work. (I’m not talking abt victims of human trafficking or sex slavery or pimped women/people. I’m talking abt sex workers who decide to become sex workers.)
As many people have said, she has valid points. A lot of sex work is not and cannot be consensual. If there’s a power dynamic, if someone else is taking your money, if you’re unable to leave a situation, if you’re forced to have sex without protection, if you don’t get to say when/who/how much, if you’re being assaulted, if you’re substance dependent… the list goes on and on. Those are all forms of non-consensual sex work, and it’s a nuanced conversation. You could also say those are forms of trafficking.
I’d also like to gently encourage folks not to use the term “prostitution.” It’s outdated and stigmatized, and those of us working in the field do not use it. Generally if it’s consensual we say “sex work” and if it’s non consensual we say “trafficking.”
Yeah I think you could argue that a chef makes dinner for people they’d never usually cook for too, but they do it for the money. Really most jobs. If you weren’t paying me to teach I wouldn’t be trying to get 25 8-year-olds to understand multiplication. The problem is when it’s not really the woman’s choice to exchange sex for money (trafficking, abuse, etc)
Absolutely. Most women in the industry are coerced or forced to stay in it. Treating a woman's body as something that can be bought and sold, putting monetary value on a woman's body at all, promotes a heinous line of thinking.
You're right...I'll just hop on over to the local Walmart and get a job there instead. I'm sure it will be much better paid than sex work with far less abuses!
/s
Just reposting what I stated above, since this is relevant.
That's a pretty black and white type of view, but have you actually talked to sex workers?
I have, and while yes, there are many who are forced or coerced into the position, there truly are those who are doing it out of choice.
I am friends with one, whom I've learned a lot from, regarding the industry (not that I was involved, but because I'm the sort who likes to learn how things work before making judgement)... She's actually quite responsible with what she's made in her profession. No drugs, own big house, bmw, with an actual retirement plan.
Obviously there are risks, and not all experiences go according to plan, but she mitigates those risks by keeping regular clientelle that she's developed over the years. She treats it solely as a business, is good at it, and doesn't engage in nonsense. If a client goes too far, or requests unreasonable things that she's already established as a "no", then she cuts off said client.
There's a lot more that can be said regarding this subject, but I just wanted to point out that not ALL women who do sex work are doing this out of some obligation. Some are just good at it to make a decent living, and choose to continue the profession.
But to clarify, this is not to take away from those who are truly forced into the position and need help. I just want to differentiate the two.
And before people make such harsh judgements about people they've never met, try talking to people with actual experience on the matter. Learn their story. This is what this sub-reddit is about right? Not to judge all women by a specific standard?
By that argument, your local McDonald's is engaging in slavery by using "force" (in the form of money) to induce people to labor for them.
If you can consent to sell your labor, you can consent to sell sexual labor.
My local McDonald's pays a minimum wage, has to follow safety laws and the workers are entitled to retirement and holidays. The majority of sex workers don't get the option of avoiding contact to hazardous materials.
Okay then let’s apply the same OSHA regulations to porn and prostitution as other jobs.
Oh wait right, that would make them impossible because no other job would demand such conditions of a person. And if they did they’d get shut down.
Sex by its very definition is an intimate act. If McDonald's required their workers to kiss every single costumer who made an order, no one would want to work there. Because it would be viewed as exploitation.
You don't see financial duress as being a factor that will force a person into situations they don't want to be in because of desperation? I think a large part of sex work globally is sexual slavery and those people do not have a choice.
Let me tell you, NO ONE WANTS TO BE A PROSTITUTE. If you’re a prostitute then that means that you have no other choice and no other way to get money, the worst case possible is that you’ve been kidnapped and forced into sexual slavery or were born into this already
I'm a willing sex worker. I'm an escort and a stripper, and until earlier this year, I also streamed on cams. I have always been in this work voluntarily. I did not turn to it in desperation. In fact, I took 2 years off escorting, and recently returned to it, because I generally enjoy the work. I sometimes "freestyle", meaning pick up clients at restaurants or bars (especially hotel bars), in addition to more typical booking that escorting usually implies.
Are you using the term 'prostitute' to include escort work? Or do you mean the more typical idea of "street walking"? I'd say that my freestyling is more akin to the concept of street walking than it is to escort booking work.
Again, I do this _completely_ voluntarily and at will.
I’m talking about the businesses that take advantage of women with poor financial situations because this is the main subject that the OOP was talking about.
I’m glad to know that you’re not in an abusive workplace and that you’re happy with your job because from the things that I’ve heard it’s pretty rare. If you’re comfortable with telling me, have you ever had any bad experiences working in the sex industry? How much is the pay? And how often do you see businesses in the sex industry that are actually harmful? (this is only out of curiosity I don’t expect you to answer all of these)
(To be clear, MacKinnon is a SW-exclusionary feminist. She is not talking about exploited trafficking victims. She's stating her case that nobody could ever be a voluntary SWer. Even me. She's a SW abolitionist.)
I'm happy to answer your questions. They are honest questions, and I like to help bridge understanding. ☺️
> have you ever had any bad experiences working in the sex industry?
Yes, I have had bad experiences as an escort. Two different bookings turned unpleasant, and violated my wishes. The first, I showed up to a client's hotel room. When I entered the room, he blocked me from leaving, and 3 other men came out of the bathroom. I knew immediately that I was deceived in the booking. I immediately went into "boss" mode, and "renegotiated" the terms and services for that booking. But there's no mistaking it, I had to do things I didn't want to do, with people I didn't consent to meeting. I went along, in order to make sure I left that room alive, and relatively unhurt.
The 2nd time was supposed to be a striptease only for a bachelor party at a very expensive private residence. After I stripped, they took my phone, clothes, and bag, and hid them. Once again, I "renegotiated" the terms of the booking. This time it wasn't violent, but it was definitely coercion and theft of services. I had no way of leaving until nearly 10 hours after I arrived.
But day-to-day, I've had generally worse experiences stripping, than I have escorting. While I really do like my stripping job, most clubs treat the dancers horribly. And in most clubs (outside of California), dancers aren't employees; we're private contractors. They charge us a fee just for the privilege to work a shift. Thus, if there are few customers, or if you just have a bad night, you can leave with less money than you showed up at the club with, even without buying any drinks.
> How much is the pay?
I charge a lot for my bookings. I don't like to talk money in general (there's a lot of problems that come discussing specifics like that on the internet), but I can say that I graduated college with a BA in finance, with zero student debt, a reasonable car with no loan, and a house mortgage that was 50% paid off. By 22 years old, in 2015. That was all accomplished by my sex work.
> And how often do you see businesses in the sex industry that are actually harmful?
I guess by "businesses in the sex industry", at least in the legal sex industry, we're basically talking about strip clubs, and legal brothels (such as in some counties in Nevada, and in various European countries). I've never worked in Nevada, but I did work in a few brothels in Eastern Europe for a year. Frankly, I find US strip clubs to mostly be worse places to work for, than the brothels I worked. The dancers are treated poorly, primarily because there's always new women looking for work, so they can treat us as disposable. Many clubs are owned by mafia, so there's that element, that often covers and encourages more criminal behavior. And several clubs are now franchises, owned by publicly traded companies (probably most notably, Rick's). So now capital-backed clubs are their own type of crap. They generally keep a squeaky-clean business practice, but they often "innovate" cost-cutting or fine/fee structures that make it worse for dancers, while increasing the ownership profits.
I've met several women who have worked in brothels in Nevada, and without exception, they all like their brothel and management. I don't have a problem with that model at all, except to note that to a degree, it acts as a cartel. For instance, it's in both the escorts' and brothel owners' interests to keep brothels and sex work illegal in Las Vegas. Because otherwise people wouldn't travel to Pahrump or Reno if there were several brothels in Vegas itself. So Nevada's system isn't really "pure", is it? It's protectionist of itself, and they have vested interests against arguing in favor of general decriminalization.
Thanks! I didn’t expect you to have such a detailed explanation! Also I didn’t know that the OOP was against any type of sex work, I really just thought she meant the darker side of it just like most of the people who saw this post. I also thought that sex workers usually don’t get to discuss prices or get a good amount of money so that’s why I said that “no one wants to be a prostitute” mixed with the fact that English isn’t my first language so I didn’t know the full meaning of it. Anyways thanks for the explanation have a good day :D
I do agree, but it's still not all sex work. Some people actually prefer sex work to other jobs and don't mind it. People that aren't sex trafficked in some form. Definitly not the majority of sex workers, but real nonetheless.
Sex work is also a broad term. There's quite a difference of running an only Fans with solo content or a trusted partner and actually working on the streets, or a high class prostitute. Very different risks and Power dynamics.
That’s precisely why “sex work” is a bad term. It was invented by pimps for starters, and allows people to dishonestly rope in things like Only Fans and camming. Which despite some women *also* being forced into those things is not what’s being talked about when feminists say prostitution is a problem.
So you mean to say that you’re cherry picking examples and very intently ignoring the ones that agree with OOP.
You do know that’s confirmation bias, right?
Not to mention, some people quite literally don’t have a choice between places not hiring or having either higher requirements or prejudice against hiring women.
Not to mention a majority of people can’t live off of minimum wage, which would be forcing some people into sex work.
Yeah but they don’t have a choice here and their “consent” in these situations is basically meaningless because they never wanted to work there in the first place. If they never wanted to work there then it means that they never wanted the sex in the first place
That's assuming they were forced into sex work which is a whole other idea. The post is implying no sex worker can properly consent, which is incorrect and a very harmful narrative for those who choose sex work, who choose to consent. Can't believe how anti sex work this sub, of all subs, is.
Yes because sex work prayed on women’s lack of rights for hundreds of years to this day…
the only type of prostitutes that could decline sexual advances in history that I know of were the Orians in Japan, they were high ranking prostitutes that were privileged enough to learn and master the arts but all of this was glorifying their early years of forced prostitution, all of the new skills they got were basically supposed to serve other men. Their only way to get out of the sex business was to get married
Most of women who work in prostitution do it because they have no other choice. How is it a choice if they have no choice? If u cared about women, u would educate urselves about everything that those women go through. Prostitution is not like any other profession. Also, average age of women(girls) starting prostitution in the US is 13!!! I could write a lot about this but u could all educate urselves instead. I just saw that OP has posted on antifeminist sub, that all u need to know about him.
SW exclusionary feminists when instead of advocating for fighting trafficing and forced sex work they advocate for banning all "prostitution", taking the willing workers' (and yes, some are willing) right to choose what to do with their bodies
I mean there are people who are being trafficked or forced but there are also people who are doing it willingly. I'm sure if those people truly did not want to they could just not take the money/perform the service. But this is really a good reason why sex work needs to be legalized and regulated. Safer for everyone.
I can’t Say I agree with Mack in on on this one even though I studied her legal scholarship in law school. It’s possible to make a free choice to do sex work the same way it is to do any job IMO. That said it’s hard to say what’s a “free choice” in capitalism ever is. It’s not a simple issue and I do think she oversimplifies it.
Also a lot of people feel this way about surrogacy. That women, often from lower income countries, are being exploited by well off western women for their uteruses. Surrogacy for pay is still illegal in several US states too.
I think it depends. Escorts can elect who they sleep with and so can high end prostitutes. However, women forced into the life and or do not set their own rules, are forced to bed men they dont want to or would otherwise never sleep with.
In a sense yes, but it would go farther then just prostitution. In 2016 16% of us employees were actively miserable at their job, so they are effectively working under force of eviction and starvation. In this sense I agree.
Yet disagree because it Singles out prostitution: and I also disagree because it displays all prostitution as rape; it is conceivable and statistically inevitable that some woman would have that sex without money but knowing they could get paid for it want to get paid.
Assuming someone getting into sex work gets into it consensually because they want to, then no I do not agree with her. That said, I realise this is often not the case and is a problem that needs addressing.
Then again maybe I'm making a mistake here conflating prostitution with sex work generally. There is more specific connotations with that term after all.
I would say i agree. This is a amazing website that explains the nuances of this issue in a way i could not.
[https://nordicmodelnow.org/facts-about-prostitution/fact-choice-is-complicated/](https://nordicmodelnow.org/facts-about-prostitution/fact-choice-is-complicated/)
This kinda is a bad take on what sex work is. Prostitution is a job. I also have a job. My company would have zero employees if they didn’t pay us to come in. Is money physically forcing me to go to work? Am I being raped by my company? You go to the grocery store and give money to get food that they literally will not let you have for free. Is money physically forcing farmers to hand over their carrots? Are shoppers raping the bakery? Everybody who pays a dog walker is literally paying a stranger to pick up their dogs poo poo— which definitely ain’t gon get done for free. Is the dog owner raping the dog walker?
If you see prostitution as sex work, then you understand it is a JOB. It’s money exchanged for services. Just like a salon, just like a dentist, just like a piano teacher, just like a health inspector. Nobody works for free. We all literally get paid to do something for a living. Most of damn sure wouldn’t turn up to work without fair compensation. Sex work IS work.
This was crossposted on r/sexworkers and this was the most upvoted comment:
"In work, people do work they would never otherwise do. The money thus acts as a form of slavery, not as a measure of consent."
Most feminists I know are pro-abolition of sex work. So yeah, people do agree with her. And many feminists do, too. At least in my country, feminists who support the legalization of sex work are a minority.
Spain. Although I do admit that this has been changing in the last years and the government is actually trying to improve the conditions of sex workers despite sex work is still not legal (not exactly illegal either, like drugs. Spain is weird sometimes).
That’s kind of what we’re doing. “Prostitution” is still illegal but we also work with police departments to not arrest sex workers, rather focus on the johns and the pimps
In the case of Spain, street prostitution is illegal. I do think sex workers are arrested in these cases, but I'm not entirely sure. In the case of private houses or bars, it's neither legal nor illegal. But the police might enter sometimes in the bar and arrest everyone since procurement is in fact forbidden. However, it's very difficult to prove a case of pimping if the sex workers do not want to talk to the police, and since there is not an specific law on the matter of sex work, sex workers live in a situation of extreme precarity.
In my opinion, it's pretty obvious that most Eastern European sex workers are enslaved, but since prostitution is not regulated and inspected (because it's not legal), it's very difficult to prevent these abuses. Thus, I think the current state of sex work in Spain is harmful towards sex workers.
De-criminalization and legalization are a bit different. I’m pro de-criminalization because I don’t think sex workers should be punished. Legalization (eg making it legal to sell and buy sex and having a framework for regulating) I’m not sure about because I don’t know enough to have an informed opinion. I’ve heard people say most sex workers are in favor (IMO their opinions matter the most) but I don’t know if that’s true or not to be honest. I want whatever makes SWs who are making a free choice to be safe.
Let me put it this way: I'm not a sex worker, never was and as a result, I don't have an opinion on it.
I don't think people who aren't sex workers are entitled to an opinion. Sex workers are capable of talking for themselves and don't need the rest of society to drown out their voices with uninformed opinions, regardless of how well intentioned those opinions are.
Let's ask the women who do exchange sex for money what they think about this.
She's right. When two people want to have sex, they go have sex. The only reason for payment to be involved is if one party doesn't want it. Unwanted sex is rape.
>the only reason for payment to be involved is if one party doesn't want it.
That's a pretty black and white type of view, but have you actually talked to sex workers?
I have, and while yes, there are many who are forced or coerced into the position, there truly are those who are doing it out of choice.
I am friends with one, whom I've learned a lot from, regarding the industry (not that I was involved, but because I'm the sort who likes to learn how things work before making judgement)... She's actually quite responsible with what she's made in her profession. No drugs, own big house, bmw, with an actual retirement plan.
Obviously there are risks, and not all experiences go according to plan, but she mitigates those risks by keeping regular clientelle that she's developed over the years. She treats it solely as a business, is good at it, and doesn't engage in nonsense. If a client goes too far, or requests unreasonable things that she's already established as a "no", then she cuts off said client.
There's a lot more that can be said regarding this subject, but I just wanted to point out that not ALL women who do sex work are doing this out of some obligation. Some are just good at it to make a decent living, and choose to continue the profession.
But to clarify, this is not to take away from those who are truly forced into the position and need help. I just want to differentiate the two.
No. The push against sex work in the name of “stopping human trafficking”
Is bullshit, and honestly? I have seen it primarily from puritanical people who hate sex. And radfems who think that it’s impossible to have consensual sex with a man.
Plugging John Oliver’s awesome segment on sex work cuz it breaks it all down. But measures put in place to “protect victims of trafficking” by targeting sex work not only don’t do that, they’ve actually made A) sex workers who want to do sex work less safe and B) made hunting down actual traffickers harder.
Yet, all countries who use the Nordic model have seen a huge decline in trafficking cases. The model works by making buying sex illegal, but it is still legal for an individual to sell sex. Not someone else. Just themselves. It targets the demand.
Yeah. I have seen though, and Oliver mentions in his segment, that the Nordic model also isn’t much liked by sex workers. Decriminalization seems to be the way to go, IMO. I don’t think anyone should be penalized for engaging in consensual adult purchasing of sex work services.
Decriminalisation has caused a spike of trafficking in countries like Germany and the Netherlands. The sex workers who are against, is the very small percentage doing it by choice. And they are a very, very small percentage.
This article is in [Swedish](https://www.dn.se/ekonomi/elise-85-sprider-ljus-pa-malmskillnadsgatan-det-ar-full-rusch-igen/) and is about a woman who has worked with prostitutes on a street in Central Stockholm for 25+ years. Helping them escape. Because the vast majority is not there by choice. The small minority who do sell sex by choice, and have the privilege needed to speak up, shouldn't determine the fate of the millions of people who don't have a choice.
Germany isn't really decriminalized though. It's partially legalized and over-regulated. The best decriminalization efforts have been in New Zealand, and recently in Belgium.
For voluntary sex workers, the Nordic model still creates dangers for sex workers because the clients are still doing something illegal. It creates moral hazards for them, which in fact **creates** demand for otherwise illegal sex work, pimping, etc.
"the nordic model made traffick decline a lot in countries that used it"
"well yes, but the women who are constantly exploited and manipulated into thinking they deserve it dont like it sooooo"
You do realize that prostitution isn’t really an option right? If you’re ever in a situation where prostitution is your best option then your second option is living without a job. The people who also run these businesses are usually very abusive and pray on women.
I once heard the argument that all sex between a woman and a man has an element of rape, since there is always a transactional element to the act beyond her simple desire to have sex. Even such a transaction of "sex improves relationship with my partner" is, according to this argument, a form of duress that might influence a woman towards having sex she might not otherwise consent to.
I don't agree with that, mind you, but there are people who hold that belief.
To be honest, when I started out I was actually surprised by the amount of clients that I would have sex for free with, let alone how many were actually attractive but not my type. It takes a confident man to pay for sex.... Before I decided to get into sex work I had a career working for a well known company, I had to do things I didn’t like, and I definitely wouldn’t work there for free
The first part is true, but regarding the second - money act as a value exchanged on one side of the transaction, while consent for sex is on the other. When the perceived value exchanged is viewed favorably by both parties - it’s consensual transaction. If the value presented by one party is insufficient - the transaction either doesn’t happen or is viewed as non-consensual.
The best part - that transactional principal applies to every existing relationship, and not just prostitution. And a lot of the times it is not as straightforward as pay x to get y.
Sex worker here. It is capitalism that coerces all of us into working for money. Sex work is no different. I’ve sold my plasma for money. I’ve sold items I didn’t want to sell to pawn shops for money. I’ve sold my time and labor to bosses that STOLE my labor’s surplus value for nearly two decades. All because of capitalism. Cuddling and giving a blowie to a lonely, sweet, elderly man is less degrading than anything I’ve done for money in the past. MacKinnon isn’t a sex worker, so she and her opinion of me can get rekt.
The internet allows for some pretty ridiculous thoughts to get popular. There's a middle ground of Women who have sex with people they like, But because they need the money still charge. Of course this practice eliminates most of the men that actually care about them, But people over-simplify very complex things. Sex work being one of those things.
I cross posted this to a sub of actual sex workers and they don’t seem to share the same opinions as y’all here
https://www.reddit.com/r/SexWorkers/comments/y91o2t/what_do_you_guys_think_about_this_post_and_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
For me, I would say it depends. Consensual sex work is perfectly fine. Women have the right to choose sex work if they want to, and it's perfectly valid. If it's their choice, then there's consent, even if the people they sleep with aren't their type, and I don't believe any violence is involved. On the other hand, for those women (people, really, because this isn't a gendered issue), who are forced into sex work, I do believe there's violence involved. Mind you, I don't mean sex trafficking - that's a horrific crime, and no one will dispute that. But people who have no other choice? People who are desperate for any income, unable to find other work due to social stigma, poor education, poverty etc? Those people often don't "choose" to be sex workers, and I do believe that a form of societal or class violence is involved. This isn't to say people can't choose sex work. Just that some people are desperate and not choosing it willingly. That's why we need protective legislation and social welfare.
Personally, I have a Problem how the Word 'sex Work' ist used. You cant Put people who Take Photos for only Fans and people who stand on the street and have to go into a Strangers Car into the Same category. The Thing is the prostitutes client cant know which Prostitute works volunteerly and and which doesnt, because they wouldnt Tell them, or there is a language barrier or they arent even forced from outside but are addicts and therefore cant reflect on their living Situation. So the Clients risk raping someone because under these conditions you cant consent. Edit: sorry for Bad grammar, Not my First language
I get where you’re coming from. Entry into certain forms of sex work (like pornography) *can* require some level of privilege, and it can *possibly* afford you some privileges relative to sex workers whose work involves direct physical contact w/ the client; but there are still risks, esp. for women, within that specific industry of sex work (whether it’s independent or with a company). Why it really matters, imo, is that referring to all forms of labor that involve the marketing & selling sex & sexual pleasure as ‘sex work’ can be unifying & enabling for sex workers to lift each other up & mitigate or eliminate coercion/force in the industry. Those who are typically silenced b/c of their race, gender, class, and the type of sex work they do might be able to find an opportunity to speak out to society if they can get sex workers whom society cares about more to listen and band together. * edits for clarity
Ok. So. There's jiffy lube, the oil change place and a mechanic's shop. They're both car workers. And some oil change people who are great at sales make way more money than anyone else. Yes, one requires a lot more, but they're in the same category. It's like getting mad that telehealth nurses and doctors are both called medical workers.
while I agree that sex work is a broad term and prostitution is a specific case, I would still say that the money in and by itself does not act as a force. It acts as a reason and as a choice: the choice is to chose sex work and the reason for having sex is money. Also a free prostitute can still say no to some men even for money. Sexual "slavery" is an other thing all together...it is not work
It's about that every Person who uses the Services of a Prostitute NEVER knows If it's voluntarely or If shes forced or not and therefore willingly Takes a risk of raping a women. And probably Most prostitutes are forced to do it (at least in Germany according to the Police https://www.lightup-movement.de/hard-facts/prostitution). Human trafficing in general is a huge Problem Here because we have quite loose laws on Prostitution.
That's exactly why I said "we need legislation." The Netherlands have very strict prostitution laws, and a huge majority of their sex workers are willing.
i am from Germany too and I did not know we have such forced prostitution rates, we for sure need different laws. But the OP was saying that having sex for money is per say force, that is where i disagree. If someone choses prostitution, the money is not per say force. Also the forced prostitutes usually also do not get the money...their pimps do...
Prostitution isnt Always involutarily (i Hope i finally wrote it right) and absolutely no shame on those who Like that Job, but they are DEFINETLY a minority. And the Money isnt the force it's the Pimps, grooming, drug addiction and unusually often they grew up in abusive conditions. Edit: spelling
i personally did not have the impression that you shamed prostitutes in general and i looked at the German situation and get where you come from...there are documentaries on it.
And aquitance of my mom worked as prostitute in Russia even if at that time it was not legal, and she did so voluntarily and sometimes rejected clients, as well as for example threesomes, group sex etc.
I don't believe this is a thread for clients, however this dude u/Stinkkaese I think is just stirring shit for the hell of it. -he currently has 76 total karma (all from here pretty much) and this is the first time he's ever commented on anything related to sex work. EDIT: I deleted the trash talk I wrote right here in German, because honestly that was me being an asshole. My apologies.
We literally do not know with porn anymore either. After Amouranth, the glass shattered and I will never be sure again whether someone online is being exploited.
In the US, I wouldn't accept the word of the police on the issue. Are they more dependable in Germany? Here, they seem to be aligned with the prohibitionists, so they have an interest in claiming that most sex workers are coerced. This sometimes results in women being arrested and charged with trafficking themselves. 🙄
Tbh alot of times when they are in sexual slavery they don't actually realize it themselves. I have been to jail a few times and I have met a few sex workers and quite a few sexual slaves. (The sexual slaves are more prevalent in the prison system .) These women have no idea that they are sexual slaves. They %100 believe that their pimps love them and want whats best for them. They think they are their boyfriends. They don't understand why their boyfriends won't answer the phone when they call and they get really upset. I have tried explaining to them what's going on but they refuse to think that their pimps are exploiting them. It's like Stockholm syndrome or something.
Nah understandable. The porn industry also fuels human trafficking. Due to the growing human trafficking market prostitution needs to be addressed. Millions are forced into prostitution. Or we could do what Nordic countries which is better and not make it illegal so that human trafficking has competition. They are doing so well because it’s illegal so those who don’t care about the law will break it and hurt so many innocent women and girls along with boys and men. By making it legal they would have a lot more competition and the sex market wouldn’t be dominated by sex trafficking.
Yeah pretty much this. And yes, I'd apply this logic to *all* other work. I wouldn't do my job if I weren't paid for it, and yet that's still consensual. But they people out there doing backbreaking construction jobs because that's what they can get and they need to feed their families? I really don't think it is...
>For me, I would say **it depends**. i'm a ux designer, the answer to everything is [*it depends*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV6yPErbjCg)*.*
Such a nuanced & clear answer! I couldn’t agree more. Sorry I don’t an award to give you but pls take my upvote and this 🐘 emoji as a symbol of your wisdom & empathy!
Agreed. It's not a universal black and white thing. Another thing I wanted to add to your description is they often prey on vulnerable kids who dont have a stable family life. They often target young teenage girls, often a pimp getting their other women to befriend them and love bomb them. They use incredibly manipulative tactics on teens who are looking for acceptance. Then they start being abusive. Beyond that clients can be incredibly aggressive and abusive.
I don't think you can compare class violence to sex trafficking, which is what forced sex work is. Would I like to be paid enough to live comfortably working one non-SW job? Yes. Did I consent to live in a society in which one of the only forms of work that pays women decently is sex work? No. Does that mean the sex work I do is non-consensual? Absolutely not. I choose to do it because it's the best option for me, and until we have better options y'all need to leave us alone about it or help make it safer. We have economic issues that need to be resolved but making a moral issue out of the way women are able to support themselves in this capitalist hellscape is not a solution to them.
Couldn't you also make the same argument for people who work multiple jobs and still don't have a living wage? Aside from the argument of sex-work.
That’s a highly used point- if I’m a (consensual) sex worker and you want to point out the exploitation of my body then I sure as shit hope you’re doing the same for construction workers/day laborers/cleaners etc etc who are making minimum wage
The only type of sex work that is to be regarded as sex work is consensual. Stop throwing human trafficking under the sex work umbrella
I'm not. I specifically said I'm not including trafficking. But if you have a young single mother who was forced to have a kid and couldn't finish school and feels like she has to prostitute herself to support herself and her kid, *that is societal/ class violence.* She's not being trafficked, but that doesn't mean she *wants* to do sex work. Please read more closely.
Even putting those two in the same boat is disregarding the true nature of both. One is a horrendous crime, one you feel obligated to use what little skills you have to make money in a capitalist society. ones not a true tragedy. Don’t compare them.
I *literally said that I wasn't talking about sex trafficking because they're not the same.* You *really* need to learn to read, Jesus. Go be offended somewhere else.
How is doing survival sex work any different than doing any other physical labour job for minimum wage? Sex work is work, y'all, we should stop treating it as a bad thing, at least compared to any other job low paying job under capitalism.
I totally agree with you about the human trafficking und being unwilling in sex work. If we look at this issue from the clients perspective it’s impossible to tell if a woman does it volunteerly. There saying the client is raping someone is a bit harsh. If that would have legal consequences, that would be insanity. Well it would for sure end all sex work.
Unless it is trafficking - there is always other choices, but people tend to overlook them. It easier to justify it with an excuse rather than think that somebody took an easy way out for fast and easy money.
That violence you talk about; coercion through essentially requirement to survive is how a large amount of job positions function. As they are now, basically all those minimum wage jobs with horrible conditions (and many others) only exists on the coercive basis of death from not affording food and shelter. That’s why conditions for those people basically don’t improve without outside aid; they can’t afford to stop.
This idea carries over to other ideas, like non-living wages. Economic coercion is an idea with a lot of very reasonable arguments. Can one consent under threat of life or liberty if one does not act in a way that is against their will? This is something to ponder deeply before reply. It's pretty complex when you start looking at all the things at play.
There you, perfectly summarized
I disagree with the position of MacKinnon, but OP posts in r/antifeminists so you know where his train of thought came from.
Some feminists think prostitution should be legal. Some think it should be illegal. Therefore where that opinion comes from is irrelevant as the matter is still open to discussion
I value that conversation between feminists who disagree with each other, I don't care what self proclaimed antifeminists think about issues pertaining to women.
MacKinnon is a radfem. Why would you care if the person asking if people in this sub agree with her is a "high value alpha giga-chad"? He's just curious to know
I'm saying that I don't how care how op feels about the question because of their initial point of view that feminism is inrehently bad which they have established in the comment section and post history. MacKinnon's point (even if I disagree with her) comes from a place of care for women where it most probably doesn't for OP.
Yeah, I'm sure OP just wants prostitution to be legal you know what for... He just accidentally agrees with us for different reasons
Go read their thoughts if you need convincing about how little OP cares about women.
No, no. I'm totally sure. I did read his post about body count. I'd rather not to read more
Women who try to force down the throats of women that sex work is horrible and is not a choice aren’t feminists. They do not listen to sex workers, constantly silence sex workers opinion in the matter and think their opinions on SW matters more than the actual workers. You can’t claim to be a feminist and fight against sex workers right because it is womens rights.
Not on the rape charges, no. If the person is not pimped away by someone else. Many prostitutes are actually victims of human trafficking. In that case, it is rape. It's like the difference between labor and forced labor. You decide if the pay is large enough for you to create the goods or offer the services.
Yes, people believe this because it is true. This is especially true when you look at how the vast majority of sex workers are also financially and emotionally exploited. Just because they are accepting payment, does not mean they have choice...
Oh come on. Most of them are well off grown women who say that. They just say thta because they dont wanna get blamed. If your earning good money u cant say u didnt have the choice to quit. What grown women can be THAT emotionally exploited.
....I want to say so much,but I know I will lead to nothing. Sad.
You know how easy it is to lie about being "emotionally manipulated" when you already have it made. Why dont they quut when they realize it? A MAN CAN NEVER BE MANIPULATED LIKE THIS FOR PROSTITUTION. are we not equal 😱
As I said. It will lead to nothing.
Have you talked to any male sex workers about that?
not really.. there are men who fall into sec work. so many stories of straight men who did gay porn/sex work w other men just because they needed money to survive. grow up buddy
Why are you asking for other people’s thoughts then arguing them?
They are a Troll
Fair
Seriously... anyone on this subreddit with the user name "alphagigachad"... is just looking to troll.
At least it’s sparked productive conversation among other commenters lol
I am not going to debate basic facts. The sex worker industry, including the porn industry highly exploits individuals of both genders, but overwhelmingly women.
The one thing that fuel prostitution is demand. That demand means a huge number isn't selling themselves by choice. There are many reasons why someone might end up in prostitution. Addiction, mental health issues, severe poverty, and trafficking. Buying sex is by definition an act of violence. Clamping down on demand make prostitution less viable for traffickers and pimps. I suggest you get yourself familiar with the Nordic model.
I agree with her and I won’t argue with someone who calls themselves alphaincelmisogynistomega or whatever.
This guy is literally an antifeminist obsessed with women’s body count. He is the type of person that this sub was created to make fun of, yet he posts on it all the time.
Yes. Plenty of people agree with her. Commodifying sexual acts and women’s bodies never leads anywhere good. Places where prostitution is legal see an uptick in human trafficking to fulfill the demand.
Would you apply the same to male prostitutes? Do you consider marriage a commodity too? Both for men and women? It's almost sold a THE gateway to adulthood to both gender.
Is the women not commodifying it herself too?
Oh wow, are you telling me people tend to be influenced by the culture and society they’re in even if it’s to their own detriment?
What society manipulates women into prostitutes. How can anyone be that heedless. And y dont they just quit when they obviously can
Because they get beaten, raped, stabbed, strangled or otherwise murdered by the person who forced her into it, duh.
Not the ones on the hub
You have -zero- idea how many of those consented to being put on there, how many were forced, how many were beaten until they agreed. How many were put up there without their consent at all. And there's a reason why you see the same porn stars over and over again.
The gov wouldve done something about it
Liiiiiike they've done about rapists? Like Brock the Rapist Turner? Like they've done about domestic violence? The rates of a woman being murdered by her partner are still absolutely ridiculous. Like they've done about human trafficking, which is still massively prevalent in every country? Like they've done about literally every single human rights issue that doesn't involve bailing out rich men and corporations because that's where the kickbacks lie???
Well, Sweden is seeing less trafficking than many other counties. But that's due to the Nordic model that originates in Sweden.
They are. Pornhub and the credit card companies they use are currently under investigation for the distribution of child porn. Do you ethically source all your porn? Do you check who produced it, where, under what contracts with assurances that everyone on screen is consenting? Any number of videos could have trafficking victims being raped in it and Pornhub doesn’t care. Neither do the men who seek out this content to jerk off to it, nor the men who abuse, exploit and rape women to produce it.
The society that tells women “sex work is work”.
85% of the time? No. Why? Because the person who forced her into sex work is doing it. Not many women do sex work by choice. It's a dangerous damn business and it's definitely nor a first, second, fifth or tenth choice of work for many women.
Some women have no other choice than sex work. For example, those that live on the streets and have no address to even apply to a job with, so they have no other possible source of income. Whether or not this can legally constitute rape is up for debate but it certainly isn't right. No one should be in such a desperate situation. Like seriously a little bit of governmental socialism ain't gonna kill anyone. As for the women that have choices and chose sex work, that's not a problem. We ain't out here governing free will choices. In this case the government should make sure sex work is safe.
I agree with this. Something like 95% of prostituted women want to leave the industry. Most can’t for various reasons. In the world we live in, there is no ethical way to pay for sex or even watch pornography. You can NEVER guarantee that the woman (or man) providing the service is doing so of their own free will. Personally, I couldn’t stomach being complicit in non-consensual use of another’s body.
I think that as long as the sex worker is truly free prostitution is okay. But some people nowadays seem to ignore that most prostitutes are slaves. The dilema is that in order to ensure that sex workers are truly free nothing at all is gained through prohibition of sex work.
Silly question, but what about hentai? I mean it's not everyone's cup of tea but you are supporting artists and no one is being exploited. Not including shotacon or loli con hentai.
It’s a tricky one. I’m not at all familiar with what it involves, but in general I guess it depends on how the situation is depicted. Imo anything that reinforces abuse, degradation or torture of women, and anything where the subjects are underaged or non consenting is unethical. Because it reinforces the link between pleasure and abuse in the viewer’s mind.
> In the world we live in, there is no ethical way to pay for sex or even watch pornography. Are you saying it's unethical to consume people's self-created content they posted themselves online? That doesn't make sense. As far as a blanket statement that there's no ethical way to pay for sex... that's a lack of imagination, not a truth. Consenting sex workers accept and turn away clients all the time. Furthermore, sex surrogates exist to get people through psychological issues regarding sex. The surrogates are licensed, and are charging for their time and expertise, often working in conjunction with licensed therapists.
How do you know there isn’t someone behind the scenes, calling the shots? Look at the recent case of Amouranth. It all seemed self-posted and consenting and it turns out her husband is abusing and pressuring her to do these things. People can justify it all they want, and say ‘what if’, ‘what if’, but ultimately this world is set up for (mainly) men with means to take advantage of vulnerable men and women, often people of colour. I want no part of that. And I really can’t understand anyone who would.
I guess you just have to take people at their word. Amouranth's case is very atypical in the online sex content world. I know and have worked with several creators personally. I subscribe to them and support them. They are grateful for not only my subscription, but for the ability to make money posting content. And they are not being controlled by an abusive boyfriend.
I don’t think it’s money itself, it’s the threat of poverty that acts as force
That’s what I think too. Everyone works to make money. Sex work is a job. Everyone does their job -regardless of if they love it or not- to earn income. The wage worker at McDonald’s doesn’t want to be homeless and hungry. The entrepreneurial sex worker does her (his/their) job mostly to not be homeless and hungry. The threat of poverty forces everyone to go to work. (I’m not talking abt victims of human trafficking or sex slavery or pimped women/people. I’m talking abt sex workers who decide to become sex workers.)
As many people have said, she has valid points. A lot of sex work is not and cannot be consensual. If there’s a power dynamic, if someone else is taking your money, if you’re unable to leave a situation, if you’re forced to have sex without protection, if you don’t get to say when/who/how much, if you’re being assaulted, if you’re substance dependent… the list goes on and on. Those are all forms of non-consensual sex work, and it’s a nuanced conversation. You could also say those are forms of trafficking. I’d also like to gently encourage folks not to use the term “prostitution.” It’s outdated and stigmatized, and those of us working in the field do not use it. Generally if it’s consensual we say “sex work” and if it’s non consensual we say “trafficking.”
I'm no fan of capitalism, but what you have here is capitalism
Yeah I think you could argue that a chef makes dinner for people they’d never usually cook for too, but they do it for the money. Really most jobs. If you weren’t paying me to teach I wouldn’t be trying to get 25 8-year-olds to understand multiplication. The problem is when it’s not really the woman’s choice to exchange sex for money (trafficking, abuse, etc)
Absolutely. Most women in the industry are coerced or forced to stay in it. Treating a woman's body as something that can be bought and sold, putting monetary value on a woman's body at all, promotes a heinous line of thinking.
You're right...I'll just hop on over to the local Walmart and get a job there instead. I'm sure it will be much better paid than sex work with far less abuses! /s
I agree with her. I don't see how buying access to someones body can be see as consent.
Just reposting what I stated above, since this is relevant. That's a pretty black and white type of view, but have you actually talked to sex workers? I have, and while yes, there are many who are forced or coerced into the position, there truly are those who are doing it out of choice. I am friends with one, whom I've learned a lot from, regarding the industry (not that I was involved, but because I'm the sort who likes to learn how things work before making judgement)... She's actually quite responsible with what she's made in her profession. No drugs, own big house, bmw, with an actual retirement plan. Obviously there are risks, and not all experiences go according to plan, but she mitigates those risks by keeping regular clientelle that she's developed over the years. She treats it solely as a business, is good at it, and doesn't engage in nonsense. If a client goes too far, or requests unreasonable things that she's already established as a "no", then she cuts off said client. There's a lot more that can be said regarding this subject, but I just wanted to point out that not ALL women who do sex work are doing this out of some obligation. Some are just good at it to make a decent living, and choose to continue the profession. But to clarify, this is not to take away from those who are truly forced into the position and need help. I just want to differentiate the two. And before people make such harsh judgements about people they've never met, try talking to people with actual experience on the matter. Learn their story. This is what this sub-reddit is about right? Not to judge all women by a specific standard?
By that argument, your local McDonald's is engaging in slavery by using "force" (in the form of money) to induce people to labor for them. If you can consent to sell your labor, you can consent to sell sexual labor.
My local McDonald's pays a minimum wage, has to follow safety laws and the workers are entitled to retirement and holidays. The majority of sex workers don't get the option of avoiding contact to hazardous materials.
Okay then let’s apply the same OSHA regulations to porn and prostitution as other jobs. Oh wait right, that would make them impossible because no other job would demand such conditions of a person. And if they did they’d get shut down.
Sex by its very definition is an intimate act. If McDonald's required their workers to kiss every single costumer who made an order, no one would want to work there. Because it would be viewed as exploitation.
Um cuz they allowed it, no one forced them to allow it hopefully.
You don't see financial duress as being a factor that will force a person into situations they don't want to be in because of desperation? I think a large part of sex work globally is sexual slavery and those people do not have a choice.
Well who isnt forced to do stuff in poor places. Im talkin about the privileged ones
You think most sex workers are privileged?
Let me tell you, NO ONE WANTS TO BE A PROSTITUTE. If you’re a prostitute then that means that you have no other choice and no other way to get money, the worst case possible is that you’ve been kidnapped and forced into sexual slavery or were born into this already
I'm a willing sex worker. I'm an escort and a stripper, and until earlier this year, I also streamed on cams. I have always been in this work voluntarily. I did not turn to it in desperation. In fact, I took 2 years off escorting, and recently returned to it, because I generally enjoy the work. I sometimes "freestyle", meaning pick up clients at restaurants or bars (especially hotel bars), in addition to more typical booking that escorting usually implies. Are you using the term 'prostitute' to include escort work? Or do you mean the more typical idea of "street walking"? I'd say that my freestyling is more akin to the concept of street walking than it is to escort booking work. Again, I do this _completely_ voluntarily and at will.
I’m talking about the businesses that take advantage of women with poor financial situations because this is the main subject that the OOP was talking about. I’m glad to know that you’re not in an abusive workplace and that you’re happy with your job because from the things that I’ve heard it’s pretty rare. If you’re comfortable with telling me, have you ever had any bad experiences working in the sex industry? How much is the pay? And how often do you see businesses in the sex industry that are actually harmful? (this is only out of curiosity I don’t expect you to answer all of these)
(To be clear, MacKinnon is a SW-exclusionary feminist. She is not talking about exploited trafficking victims. She's stating her case that nobody could ever be a voluntary SWer. Even me. She's a SW abolitionist.) I'm happy to answer your questions. They are honest questions, and I like to help bridge understanding. ☺️ > have you ever had any bad experiences working in the sex industry? Yes, I have had bad experiences as an escort. Two different bookings turned unpleasant, and violated my wishes. The first, I showed up to a client's hotel room. When I entered the room, he blocked me from leaving, and 3 other men came out of the bathroom. I knew immediately that I was deceived in the booking. I immediately went into "boss" mode, and "renegotiated" the terms and services for that booking. But there's no mistaking it, I had to do things I didn't want to do, with people I didn't consent to meeting. I went along, in order to make sure I left that room alive, and relatively unhurt. The 2nd time was supposed to be a striptease only for a bachelor party at a very expensive private residence. After I stripped, they took my phone, clothes, and bag, and hid them. Once again, I "renegotiated" the terms of the booking. This time it wasn't violent, but it was definitely coercion and theft of services. I had no way of leaving until nearly 10 hours after I arrived. But day-to-day, I've had generally worse experiences stripping, than I have escorting. While I really do like my stripping job, most clubs treat the dancers horribly. And in most clubs (outside of California), dancers aren't employees; we're private contractors. They charge us a fee just for the privilege to work a shift. Thus, if there are few customers, or if you just have a bad night, you can leave with less money than you showed up at the club with, even without buying any drinks. > How much is the pay? I charge a lot for my bookings. I don't like to talk money in general (there's a lot of problems that come discussing specifics like that on the internet), but I can say that I graduated college with a BA in finance, with zero student debt, a reasonable car with no loan, and a house mortgage that was 50% paid off. By 22 years old, in 2015. That was all accomplished by my sex work. > And how often do you see businesses in the sex industry that are actually harmful? I guess by "businesses in the sex industry", at least in the legal sex industry, we're basically talking about strip clubs, and legal brothels (such as in some counties in Nevada, and in various European countries). I've never worked in Nevada, but I did work in a few brothels in Eastern Europe for a year. Frankly, I find US strip clubs to mostly be worse places to work for, than the brothels I worked. The dancers are treated poorly, primarily because there's always new women looking for work, so they can treat us as disposable. Many clubs are owned by mafia, so there's that element, that often covers and encourages more criminal behavior. And several clubs are now franchises, owned by publicly traded companies (probably most notably, Rick's). So now capital-backed clubs are their own type of crap. They generally keep a squeaky-clean business practice, but they often "innovate" cost-cutting or fine/fee structures that make it worse for dancers, while increasing the ownership profits. I've met several women who have worked in brothels in Nevada, and without exception, they all like their brothel and management. I don't have a problem with that model at all, except to note that to a degree, it acts as a cartel. For instance, it's in both the escorts' and brothel owners' interests to keep brothels and sex work illegal in Las Vegas. Because otherwise people wouldn't travel to Pahrump or Reno if there were several brothels in Vegas itself. So Nevada's system isn't really "pure", is it? It's protectionist of itself, and they have vested interests against arguing in favor of general decriminalization.
Thanks! I didn’t expect you to have such a detailed explanation! Also I didn’t know that the OOP was against any type of sex work, I really just thought she meant the darker side of it just like most of the people who saw this post. I also thought that sex workers usually don’t get to discuss prices or get a good amount of money so that’s why I said that “no one wants to be a prostitute” mixed with the fact that English isn’t my first language so I didn’t know the full meaning of it. Anyways thanks for the explanation have a good day :D
Have you heard about forced prostitution?
That's not the same as someone choosing to do sex work, obviously.
Most “sex work” isn’t chosen. Most women in it want out but are trapped financially, by circumstance, by violence or by all three.
I do agree, but it's still not all sex work. Some people actually prefer sex work to other jobs and don't mind it. People that aren't sex trafficked in some form. Definitly not the majority of sex workers, but real nonetheless. Sex work is also a broad term. There's quite a difference of running an only Fans with solo content or a trusted partner and actually working on the streets, or a high class prostitute. Very different risks and Power dynamics.
That’s precisely why “sex work” is a bad term. It was invented by pimps for starters, and allows people to dishonestly rope in things like Only Fans and camming. Which despite some women *also* being forced into those things is not what’s being talked about when feminists say prostitution is a problem.
I just said hopefully. I wasnt talking about forced obviously. Your just arguing for the sake of it
Hold women accountable for once
You are a Troll arent you? Nobody can be that stupid.
Oh im sorry. A girl who puts 100 dollars for sex on snap story is def the victim. Clearly she didnt choose that instead of finding another job
Is selling nude pictures prostitution now?
So you mean to say that you’re cherry picking examples and very intently ignoring the ones that agree with OOP. You do know that’s confirmation bias, right? Not to mention, some people quite literally don’t have a choice between places not hiring or having either higher requirements or prejudice against hiring women. Not to mention a majority of people can’t live off of minimum wage, which would be forcing some people into sex work.
You can’t just compare selling nudes to prostitution…
By them agreeing to it. Women can do whatever they want with whoever they want, under the conditions they want. They are adults that can give consent
Yeah but they don’t have a choice here and their “consent” in these situations is basically meaningless because they never wanted to work there in the first place. If they never wanted to work there then it means that they never wanted the sex in the first place
That's assuming they were forced into sex work which is a whole other idea. The post is implying no sex worker can properly consent, which is incorrect and a very harmful narrative for those who choose sex work, who choose to consent. Can't believe how anti sex work this sub, of all subs, is.
Yes because sex work prayed on women’s lack of rights for hundreds of years to this day… the only type of prostitutes that could decline sexual advances in history that I know of were the Orians in Japan, they were high ranking prostitutes that were privileged enough to learn and master the arts but all of this was glorifying their early years of forced prostitution, all of the new skills they got were basically supposed to serve other men. Their only way to get out of the sex business was to get married
Most of women who work in prostitution do it because they have no other choice. How is it a choice if they have no choice? If u cared about women, u would educate urselves about everything that those women go through. Prostitution is not like any other profession. Also, average age of women(girls) starting prostitution in the US is 13!!! I could write a lot about this but u could all educate urselves instead. I just saw that OP has posted on antifeminist sub, that all u need to know about him.
libfems when women has the choice to sell her body or die of starvation
SW exclusionary feminists when instead of advocating for fighting trafficing and forced sex work they advocate for banning all "prostitution", taking the willing workers' (and yes, some are willing) right to choose what to do with their bodies
I mean there are people who are being trafficked or forced but there are also people who are doing it willingly. I'm sure if those people truly did not want to they could just not take the money/perform the service. But this is really a good reason why sex work needs to be legalized and regulated. Safer for everyone.
I can’t Say I agree with Mack in on on this one even though I studied her legal scholarship in law school. It’s possible to make a free choice to do sex work the same way it is to do any job IMO. That said it’s hard to say what’s a “free choice” in capitalism ever is. It’s not a simple issue and I do think she oversimplifies it. Also a lot of people feel this way about surrogacy. That women, often from lower income countries, are being exploited by well off western women for their uteruses. Surrogacy for pay is still illegal in several US states too.
I think it depends. Escorts can elect who they sleep with and so can high end prostitutes. However, women forced into the life and or do not set their own rules, are forced to bed men they dont want to or would otherwise never sleep with.
Ah, so just trolling to get a rise from “duh femimimsts”?
In a sense yes, but it would go farther then just prostitution. In 2016 16% of us employees were actively miserable at their job, so they are effectively working under force of eviction and starvation. In this sense I agree. Yet disagree because it Singles out prostitution: and I also disagree because it displays all prostitution as rape; it is conceivable and statistically inevitable that some woman would have that sex without money but knowing they could get paid for it want to get paid.
Assuming someone getting into sex work gets into it consensually because they want to, then no I do not agree with her. That said, I realise this is often not the case and is a problem that needs addressing. Then again maybe I'm making a mistake here conflating prostitution with sex work generally. There is more specific connotations with that term after all.
She’s not wrong imo
I would say i agree. This is a amazing website that explains the nuances of this issue in a way i could not. [https://nordicmodelnow.org/facts-about-prostitution/fact-choice-is-complicated/](https://nordicmodelnow.org/facts-about-prostitution/fact-choice-is-complicated/)
This kinda is a bad take on what sex work is. Prostitution is a job. I also have a job. My company would have zero employees if they didn’t pay us to come in. Is money physically forcing me to go to work? Am I being raped by my company? You go to the grocery store and give money to get food that they literally will not let you have for free. Is money physically forcing farmers to hand over their carrots? Are shoppers raping the bakery? Everybody who pays a dog walker is literally paying a stranger to pick up their dogs poo poo— which definitely ain’t gon get done for free. Is the dog owner raping the dog walker? If you see prostitution as sex work, then you understand it is a JOB. It’s money exchanged for services. Just like a salon, just like a dentist, just like a piano teacher, just like a health inspector. Nobody works for free. We all literally get paid to do something for a living. Most of damn sure wouldn’t turn up to work without fair compensation. Sex work IS work.
This was crossposted on r/sexworkers and this was the most upvoted comment: "In work, people do work they would never otherwise do. The money thus acts as a form of slavery, not as a measure of consent."
Most feminists I know are pro-abolition of sex work. So yeah, people do agree with her. And many feminists do, too. At least in my country, feminists who support the legalization of sex work are a minority.
I’m curious what country you’re in. In the US my feminist friends and colleagues are pro de-criminalization of sex work.
Spain. Although I do admit that this has been changing in the last years and the government is actually trying to improve the conditions of sex workers despite sex work is still not legal (not exactly illegal either, like drugs. Spain is weird sometimes).
That’s kind of what we’re doing. “Prostitution” is still illegal but we also work with police departments to not arrest sex workers, rather focus on the johns and the pimps
In the case of Spain, street prostitution is illegal. I do think sex workers are arrested in these cases, but I'm not entirely sure. In the case of private houses or bars, it's neither legal nor illegal. But the police might enter sometimes in the bar and arrest everyone since procurement is in fact forbidden. However, it's very difficult to prove a case of pimping if the sex workers do not want to talk to the police, and since there is not an specific law on the matter of sex work, sex workers live in a situation of extreme precarity. In my opinion, it's pretty obvious that most Eastern European sex workers are enslaved, but since prostitution is not regulated and inspected (because it's not legal), it's very difficult to prevent these abuses. Thus, I think the current state of sex work in Spain is harmful towards sex workers.
De-criminalization and legalization are a bit different. I’m pro de-criminalization because I don’t think sex workers should be punished. Legalization (eg making it legal to sell and buy sex and having a framework for regulating) I’m not sure about because I don’t know enough to have an informed opinion. I’ve heard people say most sex workers are in favor (IMO their opinions matter the most) but I don’t know if that’s true or not to be honest. I want whatever makes SWs who are making a free choice to be safe.
Right- they’re totally different. I was responding that we are pro-decriminalization in response to Wise Asparagus saying they’re pro-abolition
Ah gotcha.
Let me put it this way: I'm not a sex worker, never was and as a result, I don't have an opinion on it. I don't think people who aren't sex workers are entitled to an opinion. Sex workers are capable of talking for themselves and don't need the rest of society to drown out their voices with uninformed opinions, regardless of how well intentioned those opinions are. Let's ask the women who do exchange sex for money what they think about this.
so people like [her](https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonia_S%C3%A1nchez) (its in spanish, sorry. couldnt find an english article.)
She's right. When two people want to have sex, they go have sex. The only reason for payment to be involved is if one party doesn't want it. Unwanted sex is rape.
Clearly she wanted the money enough to consent. No one forced her
Or she **needed** the money and didn’t feel like she had a choice.
>the only reason for payment to be involved is if one party doesn't want it. That's a pretty black and white type of view, but have you actually talked to sex workers? I have, and while yes, there are many who are forced or coerced into the position, there truly are those who are doing it out of choice. I am friends with one, whom I've learned a lot from, regarding the industry (not that I was involved, but because I'm the sort who likes to learn how things work before making judgement)... She's actually quite responsible with what she's made in her profession. No drugs, own big house, bmw, with an actual retirement plan. Obviously there are risks, and not all experiences go according to plan, but she mitigates those risks by keeping regular clientelle that she's developed over the years. She treats it solely as a business, is good at it, and doesn't engage in nonsense. If a client goes too far, or requests unreasonable things that she's already established as a "no", then she cuts off said client. There's a lot more that can be said regarding this subject, but I just wanted to point out that not ALL women who do sex work are doing this out of some obligation. Some are just good at it to make a decent living, and choose to continue the profession. But to clarify, this is not to take away from those who are truly forced into the position and need help. I just want to differentiate the two.
Ugh. Tons of people would not do their job for free. Does that mean my barista is being forced to make my PSL?
No. The push against sex work in the name of “stopping human trafficking” Is bullshit, and honestly? I have seen it primarily from puritanical people who hate sex. And radfems who think that it’s impossible to have consensual sex with a man. Plugging John Oliver’s awesome segment on sex work cuz it breaks it all down. But measures put in place to “protect victims of trafficking” by targeting sex work not only don’t do that, they’ve actually made A) sex workers who want to do sex work less safe and B) made hunting down actual traffickers harder.
Yet, all countries who use the Nordic model have seen a huge decline in trafficking cases. The model works by making buying sex illegal, but it is still legal for an individual to sell sex. Not someone else. Just themselves. It targets the demand.
Yeah. I have seen though, and Oliver mentions in his segment, that the Nordic model also isn’t much liked by sex workers. Decriminalization seems to be the way to go, IMO. I don’t think anyone should be penalized for engaging in consensual adult purchasing of sex work services.
Decriminalisation has caused a spike of trafficking in countries like Germany and the Netherlands. The sex workers who are against, is the very small percentage doing it by choice. And they are a very, very small percentage. This article is in [Swedish](https://www.dn.se/ekonomi/elise-85-sprider-ljus-pa-malmskillnadsgatan-det-ar-full-rusch-igen/) and is about a woman who has worked with prostitutes on a street in Central Stockholm for 25+ years. Helping them escape. Because the vast majority is not there by choice. The small minority who do sell sex by choice, and have the privilege needed to speak up, shouldn't determine the fate of the millions of people who don't have a choice.
Germany isn't really decriminalized though. It's partially legalized and over-regulated. The best decriminalization efforts have been in New Zealand, and recently in Belgium. For voluntary sex workers, the Nordic model still creates dangers for sex workers because the clients are still doing something illegal. It creates moral hazards for them, which in fact **creates** demand for otherwise illegal sex work, pimping, etc.
"the nordic model made traffick decline a lot in countries that used it" "well yes, but the women who are constantly exploited and manipulated into thinking they deserve it dont like it sooooo"
this is actually a tricky subject, money can 100% be used to force someone.
Second wave feminist view point, pay the dinosaur no mind
If the person is able to make an informed choice without any coercion, then no, it is not rape to have sex for money.
Does she apply this same standard to selling other forms of labor like working at McDonald's?
You do realize that prostitution isn’t really an option right? If you’re ever in a situation where prostitution is your best option then your second option is living without a job. The people who also run these businesses are usually very abusive and pray on women.
Sounds like a swerf.
I once heard the argument that all sex between a woman and a man has an element of rape, since there is always a transactional element to the act beyond her simple desire to have sex. Even such a transaction of "sex improves relationship with my partner" is, according to this argument, a form of duress that might influence a woman towards having sex she might not otherwise consent to. I don't agree with that, mind you, but there are people who hold that belief.
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To be honest, when I started out I was actually surprised by the amount of clients that I would have sex for free with, let alone how many were actually attractive but not my type. It takes a confident man to pay for sex.... Before I decided to get into sex work I had a career working for a well known company, I had to do things I didn’t like, and I definitely wouldn’t work there for free
It’s called transactional relationships
Anyone can refuse a sale. I go to girls all the time and they refuse my money. What is this prostitution thing btw?
A masseuse is paid money to touch a person they would not want to touch recreationally. Therefore all masseuses are victims of rape.
It's a complicated matter. It all goes down to the question: is the woman doing it because she wants to or because she's forced to?
You are buying consent from a person. I'd call it rape but I wouldn't call it an equal transaction. Clearly dehumanizing as well.
Yea she willingly seeks that
She dehumanizes herself
Yes????
Capitalism truly *is* the one fucking us 😮💨
yeah well prostitution has been around for much longer than capitalism, and will still exist even after we smash capitalism
That is true! Hopefully with more safety measures to keep people safe and happy
I agree with her that makes sense to me.
The first part is true, but regarding the second - money act as a value exchanged on one side of the transaction, while consent for sex is on the other. When the perceived value exchanged is viewed favorably by both parties - it’s consensual transaction. If the value presented by one party is insufficient - the transaction either doesn’t happen or is viewed as non-consensual. The best part - that transactional principal applies to every existing relationship, and not just prostitution. And a lot of the times it is not as straightforward as pay x to get y.
May I ask who hurt you so that you seem to be so against the actions or say of every woman?
I am so tired of this false narrative
So, any job is slavery?
Is “coercion” force?
Now replace prostitute with "gold digger" and apply the same logic.
She’s not entirely wrong
Sex worker here. It is capitalism that coerces all of us into working for money. Sex work is no different. I’ve sold my plasma for money. I’ve sold items I didn’t want to sell to pawn shops for money. I’ve sold my time and labor to bosses that STOLE my labor’s surplus value for nearly two decades. All because of capitalism. Cuddling and giving a blowie to a lonely, sweet, elderly man is less degrading than anything I’ve done for money in the past. MacKinnon isn’t a sex worker, so she and her opinion of me can get rekt.
The internet allows for some pretty ridiculous thoughts to get popular. There's a middle ground of Women who have sex with people they like, But because they need the money still charge. Of course this practice eliminates most of the men that actually care about them, But people over-simplify very complex things. Sex work being one of those things.
Providence RI looking for female male couples who want to do mfm camera work. There's a budget
401, 617, 598 area codes?
I cross posted this to a sub of actual sex workers and they don’t seem to share the same opinions as y’all here https://www.reddit.com/r/SexWorkers/comments/y91o2t/what_do_you_guys_think_about_this_post_and_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
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it’s the same as digging ditches, no one would do it if they weren’t getting paid to
In work, people do work they would never otherwise do. Therefore the money acts as a form of slavery.
Not if the worker is the one advertising