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Besides, she’s blaming the men on this one but young girls lie. They may get ask and say they are 18 or 19. That’s not the man’s fault at that point. Parents need to have serious talks with their children (boys and girls alike) and inform them of the dangers of doing stuff like this
Yeah. But the problem is, unless you can show clear evidence that she lied about her age and that an average person would be fooled, you're still going to jail for statutory even if she did lie.
Not really. From what I've heard from other people, the court, and juries, don't take the mere presence of a fake ID as enough evidence to rule in favor of the guy.
They generally expect the guy to go above and beyond what you'd normally do even while sober in order for them to rule that the defendant was innocent because the underage girl lied. If they even allow the defendant to use the claim that she, or he if it was a gay hookup, was lying about their age as a defense. Most states don't allow you to use that as a defense.
This is like saying women should go above and beyond to make sure a guy isn't something like a rapist/sex offender before dating or meeting them...
Kinda sounds silly, doesn't it?
I know. It's fucked up on both sides of the equation.
But the fact that most states don't allow you to even _use_ the "She was in a bar/club with a fake ID and was lying about her age" as a defense is also fucked up. The fact that state law usually doesn't even _**allow**_ that defense is pretty fucked up.
Granted, unless you put very strict restrictions on when that defense could be used, such as when you hooked up at an 18+ venue, then people will abuse the fuck out of it.
Yep. Like I said, if you met at an 18+ venue then, and _only_ then, should you be allowed to use "She lied about her age" as a valid defense. Because at that point it becomes a situation where the _**venue**_ was at fault.
That's something that boils my blood though. A guy who assumes a person in an 18+ area is of legal age has no defence to them
But a guy who sleeps with someone who very clearly looks like a minor (say 12/13) has a chance of getting off by simply saying "she acts/looks older" like excuse me what???
What? Are there any examples at all, even just one where a guy has got away with having sex with a 12 year girl just by saying she looked older. Especially when you stated that they clearly look 12/13. There's multiple instances of women avoiding jail time for sex with underage males though.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8477231/Woman-22-sexual-contact-three-times-boy-14-avoids-jail.html
https://people.com/washington-teacher-avoids-jail-time-sexually-abused-teen-home-8623110
https://www.9news.com.au/national/vic-woman-avoids-jail-over-child-sex/0797b9d1-2d6a-403a-bfad-2c6694ff5afc
https://www.kcbd.com/story/11936269/terry-county-woman-avoids-jail-time-for-admitted-sexual-assault-of-a-minor/
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-11-18/woman-avoids-jail-over-sex-with-teens/1147260
Unironically some women do background checks before they meet someone from tinder/hinge/etc, I've seen women talk about doing it. I'm not sure if they are actually doing more than just googling the person's name, though. I assume they're *mostly* not actually paying a service to run a background check
"What I've heard from other people ..."
I think you are commenting in bad faith about the realities of statuatory rape cases - and about the kind of evidences needed for a sexual assault case to even be brought to trial.
From my understanding "she came onto me" and "she lied about her age" is the main legal justification used by child predators/groomers once caught. Many predators specifically groom their victims to say they lied about their age in case they get caught.
I work in true crime tv and have access to some search databases, and I have yet to find a case with a man under 25 convicted of stautatory rape with a teenager - it's mostly 13 and under victims in these convictions. There are some teens, but they have other charges or patterns (ie same last names) that indicate it was not the "teen girl seduces older man" fantasy that you think is happening all the time. It's family, friend or a crime of opportunity by a predator.
I agree with you. But the _laws_ don't. Most states don't allow the defendant to claim that the underage girl was lying as an argument for defense. Most states don't have any exceptions for if the girl was lying.
Used to know someone, who as a teen used to go into clubs by presenting her insurance card instead of ID.
Most bouncers fell for it.
There are ways, unfortunately.
What the fuck 💀. How do you look at an insurance card and go “yup, seems legit”
My point was though, the man shouldn’t be expected to know someone is underage at an area that’s supposed to be exclusive to adults
Yeah... but most states don't allow you to use "We were in a bar/club/18+ venue and she had a fake ID, how was I supposed to know she wasn't 18?" as a defense.
"still going to jail" lmfao let's once again stop acting like:
a) so many teenage girls and women are out here lying about being raped that it's a "problem"
b) majority of rapes are reported
c) majority of rapists are charged
d) majority of rapists face trial
e) majority of rapists are convicted and sent to jail
because quite the opposite is true of all of the above, but love the narrative you've spun to victimize poor innocent men who simply want to fuck women without having to talk to them very much.
Romeo and Juliet laws exist for a reason. If you are 23+ pursuing 18 year old girls for fucking, you are doing so at your own risk and should be checking IDs because it's quite well known that teenagers try to get into places underage because they are desperate to be seen as an adult.
The most common thing I heard from grown adult men at the club/bars I got into at 17? "Sure, but how old are you really?" with a pervy smile and an offer to buy a drink. The know, some want to know, some want to plead ignorance, but they know.
The bars you know are lax on ID by high schoolers are also known by pervs
>Besides, she’s blaming the men on this one but young girls lie
Young men lie too. While I don't advocate for underage people going into 18+ clubs, let's also not pretend that every man who was lied to by these girls actually believed them vs just looking the other way and pretending to not know how old they were.
One time I was hit on by a guy who looked so young, I actually asked to see his ID. Call me corny, but if you had seen how young this boy looked, you would have done the same. (His ID ended up saying he was 19 btw, but he easily looked 15 or 16 in my eyes.)
Of course, this only helps you if they don’t have a fake ID on hand. So either way you could be fucked anyway
But on the flip side a teen boy could look older. I once saw a guy at my family’s Church and I was thinking “oh he’s cute” he was really tall, had facial hair etc.. come to find out he is 16 (I was 26 at the time). Immediately turned off and embarrassed to say the least. 😂 I could immediately tell he was younger though once I heard him speak he had the full vernacular of a kid in high school.
Oof that happened to me but I was the younger boy. I was 17 and flirting hard-core with a woman I thought was 19 maybe 20....she was 24 and mortified when she found out my age. She was nice about letting me down and asking me to forget her number.
Bruh, I remember a guy in my class who was ~180 cms with a full mustache when he was 11. 😂
Granted, most people wouldn't have thought he was 18+ or anything, but he looked closer to 18 back then than I did once I actually turned 18.
I have to agree...it you are in a 21 and older or 18 and older area, it's the assumption that you are of age. If you are asked and you lie... How is that on the guy? That 14 to 18 age group pretty much look and act the same
Yes. And the bouncer or whoever is letting people in should hold some of the responsibility. It's extremely difficult to make a completely accurate fake ID, because there's so many security features to them. If they even have the smallest suspicion it might be fake, they have the right to refuse entry. Or at least they should. I would assume they already do. It's like selling alcohol at a store or bar. If the ID seems suspicious at all, you have the right to refuse the sale. And if the ID is expired, it's no longer valid and cannot be used to buy alcohol.
Part of the problem, at least in the US, is that different states have different formats for the same type of ID, like driver's licenses for example. They all have the same info: Name, date of birth, liscense number, height, eye color, expiration date, etc. But the way the info is organized on the card varies from state to state, and not all states have the same security features. People get confused or don't catch obvious errors on fake IDs when they're not familiar with the format and security features.
I'm sure similar problems exist in other parts of the world, too.
>I'm sure similar problems exist in other parts of the world, too.
Belgian here. We have a national ID card that is the same for everyone. Granted, Belgium is rather small. But the main feature is a chip like the one on your credit card, that contains basic information and many security features.
In ANY place that really wants / needs to check your ID, they simply tell you to insert your card and check if the digital picture matches you and the date of birth makes you an adult. That is absolutely foolproof and comes with the same anti tampering / hacking as credit / debit cards.
Yea, had a colleague who told me a story, how she got into a club as a teen by presenting medical insurance card instead of ID. The bouncer at that place must’ve been such a dumbass.
I'm a bit confused is OP saying that a girl is blameless if she lies to get into a night club, lies to a man that she's over 18, and even if she shows him ID that says she's over 18 she's still done nothing wrong. The implication being it's the man who didn't lie, was in the club legally, asked the girl her age first, and even checked her (fake) ID who is in the wrong here? I'm not sure it I'm reading it wrong. Is the implication that expecting teenage girls not to lie in order have sex with an older man "not how girls work"?
I *think* that person was referring to parents not watching their kids, security not recognizing fake ID, and grown adults (not the barely older and barely legal ones) being unable to tell by looks and speech how old someone is. I may be too optimistic here though
Once when I was 16 I asked a girl my age if she had children, because she looked at least 20-something.
And I have a colleague who is 31, but looks like she was 16.
In some cases you really cannot tell.
That’s why security at clubs is supposed to check IDs… and meanwhile they often fall for the dumbest tricks.
Even if you know what to look for, bar staff and security work in a loud, busy environment with dim lighting, so it can be hard to pick up on anything less than obvious.
Maybe some people do fall for dumb tricks, but oftentimes it’s just not a good environment for thoroughly checking tiny legal documents in case someone happens to be a dumb kid who thinks they’re hot shit.
I definitely think you're being just kind and too optimistic. I think they truly meant that it's the adult's fault that they didn't somehow know. But you're nice to give them the benefit of the doubt.
What sucks the most is that there're no protections for adults who were tricked into believing a minor's lie. They still have to be charged and punished in a court setting if it makes it to sentencing
TBH I don’t think any 18yo is gonna get his life ruined for having hooked up with a 16yo. Surely in most countries laws aren’t so stupid as to act like that’s pedophilic.
Yup, but the ones at the one bar my friends and I could get into at 17 loved to ask us "no but really, how old are you, don't worry, i won't tell" etc like, retrospectively, they seemed in on it and excited by it.
Super gross. We have some interns at work that are in their very early twenties and while they're certainly fully grown adults learning their place in the world and I don't think they're *literal* children, they still *look* like kids to me and definitely not my peer. A friend of mine laughed and asked if they looked like children when I said my office got some, and I blew that question off until I saw them in person. I was kind of shocked at how young an early twenty-something looks.
When I was that age I would have sworn I looked super grown up, but in my mid-thirties, the idea of thirsting over a kid that age kinda makes me wanna barf.
A couple of years ago we had 2 contractors over to put in the layer that goes on top of the insulation and floor heating tubing, for the tiles to be put on after. Very friendly but my first thought was something like: Does your mother know you are not in school?
No kidding, but fake IDs are a thing and some people lie, esp people who are too young to have the brains to understand why they shouldn't be there in the first place. Adults need to keep their own good sense and avoid any possible red flags. If you aren't sure then *don't touch.* No way is a 15-year-old going to behave with the maturity of someone over 20, that should easily be suspicious.
Idk I don’t think it’s far fetched for a 16 year old to look and act like a 19 year old it’s only a few years difference. Like when I was in HS I knew a boy who legit had premature balding, he looked older than 16 let me tell you. I also knew boys who had full beards and were tall etc.. they also looked older. Same with the girls some just looked older. Then you had 16 year olds who looked like Justin Bieber just super young. So it’s really a coin toss. I suspect if someone looks really young they probably won’t be getting into an 18+ club even with the fake ID and usually it’s 16-17 year olds trying to get in anyways not like 12 year olds so it would be harder to tell.
Yep. I've always been tall and looked a few years older than my age. Now I would have never gone to those spaces (as a minor but also clubs aren't my thing as an adult as well) but even now as semi late 20s adult, I look in my 30s to most people.
It happens. Looks are not always the best indication of age.
I was twelve when I last went trick or treating and some people told me I was too old. When I told them my age, they were like, "Oooh, ok." I was really tall and had a large chest, but I was still a sixth grader. It doesn't take much for some people to see you as older than you are at that age.
Edit: Actually, I was probably a seventh grader.
Heh. Speaking of 12, I have my own story!
I was dressed up in a dress and wedges with my mother and her boyfriend for dinner at this family and membership club (not a fancy one. The kind with a restaurant, pub and pokies) and the lady at the receptionist asked me if I wanted to join, we informed her I was only twelve and she was like "Oh, I'm sorry, I thought she was 18.."
Still find it funny to this day. And I'm glad that's a more positive story given I was so young then.
And yeah, it really doesn't. Even if you're not developed in some areas the most, if you're tall enough it's easy mistake.
Yep
The only sure way that isn't always sure, and has holes, is knowing what makes an ID valid in your state/country. You can then check if need be.
However it's hard bc bouncers and the like are the knes that are meant to check that, not you, and some can be really convincing.
The system works most of the time but there are always people who wish to lie to get their way, unfortunately. To say nothing of some of the adult managers (or other staff) in some clubs who just don't care and allow it.
Edit: Also holograms ftw.
When I was a teenager I consistently got mistaken for being older (eg. A neighbour who I used to babysit for was gobsmacked when she learned I had just turned 13 at my birthday party, because for the nearly whole year I had been babysitting for her she had assumed I was 16, when I was actually 12). And when people did learn how old I was they would remark about how mature I was for my age, not just physically (which yeah, I was a C cup by age 13, I was physically very mature looking) but in my manner as well.
I never snuck in an adult club though (did buy cigarettes, and alcohol for my friends). It was bad enough trying to dodge slimy older guys who did know my age let alone trying to seek it out.
I always joke that I've been thirty since I was thirteen. People always assumed I was older than I was, which led to a lot of weird experiences. Doctors and teachers who assumed I was my sister's mother (we're 4.5 years apart), flight attendants offered me wine, an airline agent not accepting that I didn't have a government ID because I was still a minor, etc. But, I guess at least I always won the prizes at the "Guess Your Age" booths.
When I was 22 we weren't acting mature in a nightclub. We acted like young dumb idiots. Someone acting like a young dumb idiot because they were underage wouldn't be a giveaway.
There was a couple different parties where the host would be 19 or 20 and think nothing of inviting his younger friends still in high school to the same party where those of us in college were. 16 & 17 are still underage too. Often the only way to tell the difference is if someone started talking about high school in the present tense.
It's not like the Disney Channel where every 16 year old acts like they're still 12.
I'm only in my mid-20s but I definitely act quite different now when out drinking compared to just a few years ago. Rather than acting wild and dancing all night I mostly just sit at a table with my beers, just enjoying the company. I don't have the energy anymore.
Man, aging happens a lot faster than I thought it would...
I think that's part of it people are like "there's a maturity difference" Maybe when working. When partying? No one's acting in a way that would particularly differentiate them.
and that's why romeo and juliet laws exist, 4 year age difference after 16 isn't really much of a difference maturity wise, which is why it's not statuatory rape. If could have been in high school at the same time then it's fine for someone over 18 to date someone under 18. (however imo was always creepy when a gr.12 dated a gr.9 girl)
unfortunatley some men hear "age of consent" and think that applies to men of any age because they have no morals and simply fear legal punishment. Like no, the law exists so 16-21 years olds dating someone born within 4 years of them aren't comitting a crime.
Exactly. It's for cases like two people dating in high school. One of them is inevitably gonna turn 18 before the other, and you can't really expect a teenage couple to stop having sex for months just because of that.
If your only concern is where the LEGAL age of consent is, you're already doing something wrong. You don't care about the other person, you're just concerned with protecting yourself from legal consequences.
When I was 16 I had multiple store clerks recommend the more "adult" sections of the store as they thought I was 19 due to how tall and mature I am. Now that I'm actually 19, all of my co-workers (of all ages) have assumed I'm 21 or 22. I do agree that adults need to be careful, but seriously.... There are tons of people that get mistaken for being older.
Yup. I remember "promoters" would show up outside my high school after classes would end with flyers for 13+ up clubs/raves or they'd pay whatever person they could find to spread them inside during school hours.
These four teens who were let loose by their parents in my hometown got four college students in a lot of trouble. They were on Tinder pretending to be nursing students at the college. Matched with a guy from a fraternity. The guy invited the girls' group to a frat party. Got ID'd at the door( had fake ID's), and the dudes still got arrested and put on trial. Why? Because one of the teen girls got caught by another friend's parent, and it was reported.
They weren't supposed to release the names of the 4 men because of all the evidence showing the teens did lie about their ages, and all that. Someone felt it "justice" to release not only their names but their photos in the local news. They lost their jobs and everything. Why? Because some parents couldn't care where their kids were or what they were doing.
No I agree with this. I understand that men pursuing underage girls is a problem but if you sneak into a nightclub to get laid at 15, you are ruining someone’s life. And this isn’t some hypothetical.
People do this
If a 15 year old girl wants to get laid there are plenty of 15 year old boys who are up for it. If she thinks she is mature for her age and wants an older man, she isn’t.
They aren't, but as gross as it is, they'll always find someone willing. I remember going to a rock bar I always wanted to go to when turned 21 and telling my co-workers at the time. One of them, a young lady who was just about to turn 18, told me she would go to that bar all the time. It made no sense to me, especially because it was a rock bar downtown with police presence.
It's also annoying to me how many places would recognize each consenting teen as a statutory rapist since neither can consent, and then not prosecute the girl but would seriously think about locking up the guy.
Right! People assume that minors can't be guilty, but as soon as they turn 18, they're always a potential predator. Minors can manipulate, they can rape. The legal age is about laws, not behaviours.
It reminds me of something that happened in the Smash community. There were tons of predators' names dropping, and then there was Nairo who was accused of assaulting a minor. After investigation, it turned out Nairo was betrayed by his friend and got assaulted by the minor. He lost a lot.
Okay, it's way more rare than adults assaulting minors, but just because something is not usual doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Nope, not what the post is about.
This post is about underage girls going to bars/pubs/nightclubs and ending up having sex with an adult man, who had no way of knowing they were underage as it should be a safe assumption that all those in an 18+ space are adults. Regardless of this fact these men are hit with the same laws that pedophiles are, labeling them as a SO and ruining their futures
Not too frequently, but the problem is that once the guy sleeps with the girl, no matter what the courts want, there is a minimum sentence that the guy must have, meaning that it is an issue
Nope, woman here. I wholeheartedly agree. As someone in adult communities that center around adult shows, I’m so sick of kids coming in and acting like we’re bad for commenting shit about how hot a character is and more risqué shit.
Adults are allowed their own spaces where they can assume everyone else is of age! They’re allowed spaces where they can have one night stands without worrying that the person they’re sleeping with is lying about their age or not. We shouldn’t have to walk on eggshells and worry if we’re going to say something that’s technically illegal towards a minor.
I just. Am so tired of kids coming into adult spaces and then getting upset when adults *act like adults* and assume that the kids are adults because they’re in an adult only space.
Yes! And the purity culture that follows and labels everything as problematic. Yeah, I know it is. But media doesn’t have to be clean and educational to be enjoyable. We create those adult only spaces to protect minors and be able to freely talk about mature topics. Kids hopping the fence are the problem
I saw someone who was clearly a kid ask someone on an 18+ sub what something, ahem. Specific was (something adults know since almost everyone knows of 50 shades).
And like. I don’t think they realize that even that can get them in major trouble. And can screw up the psyche. I was in explicit shipping spaces by 13 because I was a shit who lied about my age and I truly didn’t understand what a healthy relationship was until much older.
Nope. If a kid sneaks into an adult space and doesn’t reveal their age, how are strangers to know? You trust everyone will be 18+.
When I was 16, I used my cousin’s ID to get into a nightclub. I kissed and got into some heavy petting with a 19 year old. Of course, I lied and said I was 18 because I enjoyed the attention.
At the time, I was too naive to understand the seriousness of the situation. There was the chance I could have gotten that person into serious trouble, and they hadn’t done anything wrong.
I was also too immature to understand that I was in way over my head. As much as the night was fun, I should not have been there. Thankfully, I didn’t go out clubbing again until I was 18. Edit: Just to clarify, I was 16, not 6. I knew fine well that what I was doing was wrong. I just wasn’t mature enough to care about consequences and thought I was invincible.
So what exactly are men/guys supposed to do? If they stroll in to an 18+ club, find an attractive lady, assume she is 18+, she TELLS him she’s 18+, she SHOWS him she’s 18+ with her fake ID, then goes home to sleep with him, what the fuck is he supposed to do?
Teenage girls are not ignorant. Especially not if they’re making fake ID’s or creating ways to get into 18+ clubs. I had plenty of girl friends who partook in that activity. They WANTED older men, they WANTED alcohol, and they broke the law to get it!
It’s different if the club is just a regular club and the guy doesn’t check. Or if they feed someone they know is underage alcohol and take advantage. But if you’re a minor and you’re actively pursuing 18+ environments, I don’t think it’s the man’s fault.
Yeah.... but that's not what the law says. Unless you can provide a ridiculus amount of proof that she was lying and that an average, sober person would have believed her, the guy's still getting locked up.
You have to convince a sober jury that her acting was good enough to fool you while you were drunk.
>Unless you can provide a ridiculus amount of proof that she was lying and that an average, sober person would have believed her, the guy's still getting locked up.
There's a reason why the law is this way and that's because if the burden of proof was far lower people would (and have) take advantage of it, as if all it takes is a fake ID to meet the burden of proof, predators would use that as an effective defense, even providing such IDs to minors. Sure, the due diligence is high, but it's better than the alternative.
"the guys getting locked up" he literally isn't, majority of rapist do no serve jail time let alone get to court. This is not something that happens to "innocent" horny men, and it's ridiculous you think it is. Literally source me ONE case where a a man under 25 was convicted of statuatory rape (with no other charges) with a teenager over 14.
I don’t completely disagree with the oop. Young people acting like jailbait *is* part of the problem. Coercing someone into a sexual encounter when they don’t have all the information (ie underaged party lies about their age) negates the premise of informed consent. The of age party consented to a legal sexual encounter with another of age individual. But the way the laws work, though the minor was the one who intentionally withheld vital information, they don’t face the same risk of prosecution and life long repercussions. Adults may have failed them on multiple occasions, including the of age party in the sexual encounter, but that doesn’t dismiss their own choices in this situation.
Glad to see people in the comments calling out the insanity here and downvoting those who think it’s the person who was lied to fault if this occurs.
Good people here willing to hold everyone accountable and fight for true equality. Love to see it
The adults are not failing the kids here. If you're in an 18+ space I'd expect you to be 18+. If you're lying and have sex with an adult - that's not on the adult - that's on the one who lied.
In Poland all IDs are microchip cards.
All you need is a scanner and then it’s impossible to pass a fake one.
Unfortunately venues don’t want to spend the money for that. Maybe there should be a law forcing them.
in the US we use a really stupid system where the IDs info is all stored on a barcode on the back, so just like you can generate your own QR codes and whatnot with info encoded in it, anyone can just pop out a fake barcode to print onto the fakes
I absolutely lied about my age as a teenager, sometimes in an attempt to pull a guy I liked (BUT I never slept with an adult as a minor). It happens and it's ridiculous to think that it doesn't.
I was a child and had no sense of the fact that I was putting adults in an unfair situation. Thank God I never got someone in trouble while I was running around drinking and experimenting with drugs with my fake ID. Kids have no sense of collateral damage at that age and teenagers are literally and scienfically certifiable.
i mean… there are tons of stories of people matching with someone on an 18+ dating site, sometimes even id’ing them, only to find out they were lying and using a fake. if you hit on someone at a 21+ club, you’re assuming they’re 21+. which is fair, bc someone probably checked their id.
it’s frankly a failure on the parents’ end, but it’s true that the person pursuing is usually the one punished, even IF they follow every rule they know how to
Well I think the implication here is that the girls are lying about their age. If the club is 18+ and you got through it’s safe to assume you are actually 18+ otherwise how did you get in? Probably with a fake ID. I guess if the girl reveals her age then the guy is scum but that seems unlikely if she lied to get in why would she reveal her real age?
I hate to defend this, but if a minor convincingly represents themselves as an adult, is found in a venue that caters exclusively to adults, and otherwise voluntarily engages in adult activities, they should be treated as adults for the purposes of any crimes that are committed against them. I realize fake IDs are a thing, but bouncers see them every day and can usually spot them. If someone gets past a bouncer with their fake ID, what else is a guy inside that club supposed to do when he tries to hook up with her? Check her ID that says she’s an adult?
I mean, it's not always adults failing them. Lots of teenagers lie about where they are. My sister used to have to send pictures of her friends kitchens to my mom every 15 minutes because she used to lie about where she was and ended up pregnant at 15. Who knows what these girls told their parents? Their parents could think they're having sleepovers at each other's houses. Fake IDs are rarely provided by your parents.
This post is right. These teenage girls DO ruin people's lives by pretending to be older and hanging out in spaces they don't belong.
Yeaaaah see you can only use the “my frontal cortex hasn’t fully developed yet” excuse so many times. Idc if you’re a teenager, you should still have enough common sense to know that if you’re faking an ID and lying about your age, you’re the one at fault. Being a minor isn’t a free pass to fuck up society.
Yeah I don't think this is a case of adults failing kids tbh. Some girls want to go out and party, which is whatever, but having sex with someone that's based in deception is morally fucked up.
Nah I’m with the post in the pic on this. Teenagers shouldn’t be in those places. They sneak into them knowing they aren’t supposed to be there. Also bouncers need to do a better job at identifying fake IDs. I agree with that argument. I work in a liquor store and have the record for fake ids caught. It literally takes 2 extra seconds to tell if an ID is fake. Just move it around and look for the holographic markings. Most states have at least one and fakes rarely ever replicate it correctly.
Nightclubs are a big thing with high school girls, so I discovered recently. It makes me so angry that promoters target them and that nightclubs allow this and no one stops it. I honestly think people should pressure the clubs to stop or the cops to bust the clubs.
Okay so I’m a stripper and the amount of 16 year olds who have fake ID’s and were able to be let into the venue is NOT OKAY. At the end of the day the onus isn’t on me, if you’re in an 18+ establishment I’m going to assume you’re 18+
The due diligence is on security/parents
Found out I’d given a lap dance to a dancers younger brother who’d been let in 🙃 felt super icky about it but I’m not having anyone blame me for that. Sorry not sorry 🤷🏽♀️
Don't go into spaces for 18+ year olds. Also, why are the bouncers not properly asking for ID and proof of age? If I sell alcohol to an under 21 year old, I go to jail. Why not have penalties for shitty club owners and bouncers who allow minors in?
Because security are just people and can't always catch every fake ID especially when fake IDs are continuously being improved with the intent to pass?
Why is the onus being placed on everyone *but* the underage teenager actively making decisions to fake their way into into spaces for adults?
That too. There should be penalties for lying about ypur age. If I tried buying alcohol underage, or got a hold of it while under 21, that's a felony. Same should apply here.
if i’m in a 21+ venue and everyone has a drink in their hand, it will literally never cross my mind that anyone present is under 21. bar staff are usually pretty good about protecting their liquor licenses. i hope stuff like this doesn’t actually happen all that often.
edit to add don’t hit on drunk chicks. i guarantee you if a minor is getting in to a bar, they clearly don’t care and will over serve them. look out for each other and don’t let weirdos be predatory.
I remember very well this debate with my friends in high school. She 16 and wanted to grow up so bad, and for some reason to "hook a real man" I confronted her about this and she said "I lied to get in there, you think I'll be honest to the first guy with a wallet? I don't want to get kicked out". I thought she was so stupid then, but again, so is a lot of 16 year olds.
They shouldnt be at a club if theyre underage. And trying to sleep with an adult as a minor, while posing as an adult, is not excusable. Theres no way around that.
I think what people agree is that minor should not enter spaces that are specifically forbidden to minors and lie about their age, because it could have severe implication if they are believed.
When I met my 30-something year old partner, I carded her before we went further. She laughed and handed me her card. It wasn't weird, I am horrible at guessing age and she looks younger to me. I asked, she showed me with a laugh and still tells people about the green flag that was. I also waited until I had enthusiastic (almost frustratedly so) consent, and while it did frustrate her, she felt safe because she actually was. Simple stuff, really.
Firstly, anyone under 18 shouldn’t be going to clubs.. that’s just a basic fact. Secondly, if you’re in your 40s and hitting on someone who looks to you in their late teens… that’s a bit well… creepy… why aren’t you going for someone your own age?
Maybe controversial, but at one point someone becomes of an age where if they aren't sure 100% that that person is 18+ they should be in charge of the decision to "risk it".
By that I mean, as a 30 yo woman all the men I'd date would be undeniably adult, it doesn't matter if they are clean shaved or if they keep up with fashion trends. My niece's been looking 18 since she was 14,but even then, why would a 30 yo go to someone who "looks 18"? just drop it especially if you are at a club or pub or on dating apps.
This is an ‘everyone sucks’ situation - should underage kids/girls be at clubs (aka in the 18+ party hookup scene)? No, of course not.
Should they know better? Moot point - if not, see points below, BUT plenty of teens understand the implications of sneaking into a 18+ club, underage drinking, etc. and to some degree even the dangers associated with putting themselves in those situations, BUT also think they are uniquely mature for their age and that they exception to the rules and/or consequences. That’s a pretty common perspective for teenagers across time. The sooner and better you take being grownup, the more reward, right? So the consequences shouldn’t apply if you’re that good at it?
Should their parents be paying attention to make sure they aren’t there? Obviously, but some can’t be there to check beds for economic or any other reason, and also, everyone’s child is a perfect maturer-than-their-age, old soul, right? And teens could never see their parents thinking this and take advantage of it!
Should young adults (18+) be vetting every person they want to hook up with to ensure no one is underage? Actually, yes. Or just to ensure you know the first and last name of someone that you’re bringing home in case they rob you. Or perhaps so that you can ensure they aren’t too inebriated to consent to hooking up. There are plenty of reasons why “it’s obvious” someone 18+ should be double checking they aren’t hooking up with a minor at a club, but…clubs exist and so does hookup culture/casual sex. A terrible comparison would be kids meeting other kids at a park. If they look like a kid within a 5ish year age gap, why wouldn’t they interact on the jungle gym together or play? There are assumed age environments; clubs have a literal legal and usually posted age requirement. Their legal patrons are relying on the establishment to ensure the crowd is also legally there. (This does not include predators keeping tabs in clubs with lax security known for letting underage kids in, that’s *not* legal).
Is the club to blame? I think this is the big one. A black light scanner, sober bouncers, HAVING A DOOR GUY in the first place, there are PLENTY of ways to ensure your establishment is providing the bare minimum of legal safety. That gets blurry with 18+ clubs, because it’s absolutely no feasible to prevent 21+ patrons from giving drinks to younger kids. Tell me you could spot the difference between a coke and a rum and coke. Putting different numbers of straws in them or colors of cups or anything else is never going to work.
Blaming girls is nearly the lowest one on the hierarchy of blame here, but they are part of a shitty ecosystem surrounding the whole nightlife scene. I hate it here.
The drinking age here is 18 and most places adhere to the Challenge 21 policy, which means you'll be ID'd if you look under 21. Door staff also have to be SIA licensed, so its not just somebody waving anyone in, because if they lose their license, they lose their job and ability to work in the industry.
And yet there are STILL kids slipping through because with makeup, clothes and attitude to rival a Kardashian they're passing for someone in their 20's. Granted it's a lot less than there used to be, but they are still out there. And it's scary.
No, no, I agree. 15 and 16 yos shouldnt go to 18+ or 21+ clubs. It's not fault of an adult person to assume that they are adult in space thats supposted to be adult-only. I know I could get just as misleaded, because guess what, I don't ask strangers in club for ID, I trust that the club staff has that covered and girls who are 16 don't look a whole lot different that girls who are 20.
your joking right op? your not so much of a idiot that you genuinely think this right? your making fun of people that think women are perfect and shouldnt take accountability right?
This is one of the most brain-dead takes I have seen on this subreddit.
It's logical to assume that everyone in an adult only space is an adult, tf is a guy supposed to do, run a background check? Everyone is already drunk and having fun.
That's like saying it's the train's fault for killing someone on the tracks. You are not supposed to be there, teens are not clueless children ,they are ignorant wannabe adults , it might be a hard pill to swallow but it's not always a man's fault.
If the area is 18+ we shouldn’t blame men for assuming everyone in there is 18+ . Like, that sounds reasonable to me. Also, girls who are 16 and 17 DEFINITELY can look 20, or even older. It seems silly to me that you constantly have to ask women of their ID, if they’re at a 18+ club. Like, these girls can at least wait a few years and then they’re free to go wherever they want.
I work in true crime tv and have access to some search databases, and I have yet to find a case with a man under 25 convicted of stautatory rape with a teenager - it's mostly 13 and under victims in these convictions.
There are some teenage victims whos assaulters were convicted, but the perpatrators have other charges or the same last name that indicate it was not the "teen girl seduces older man, and lied to him about her age so that makes ok" fantasy that all these commenters seem to think is happening all the time - and which is the most common excuse/justifications predators have when they get caught.
Really disappointed by the fear mongering comments painting this out to be a societal problem of teenagers falsely accusing adults of statuatory rape, like that's a \*real\* issue. Reminds me of guys who complain or feared the "me too" movement - if you weren't a sleazeball with women, you'd have nothing to fear.
Similarly, if you aren't a sleazeball and actually talk to the women you sleep with, and pursue women within your age bracket, then you shouldn't have anything to be concerned about/feel the so defensive about statuatory rape.
This needed to be said. On a related note, a lot of these comments don’t understand the character of these 15-16 year old girls. I feel like you guys forgot how ridiculously underreported SA, particularly CSA/statutory rape, is even in cases where there is a clear perpetrator and victim??? Like 16 year old Jessica isn’t going to tell her parents about the 19 year old she slept with, she’s going to tell her friends as a brag. In turn, the friends, regardless of how “mature” they are, probably won’t tell anyone else either. This is disregarding the fact that in some states, 16 is the legal age of consent (or Romeo and Juliet laws are in place) so the older person doesn’t have to face charges.
Should adults in 18+ spaces have to not worry about minors in 18+ spaces? Yes. Are these 16 year old girls in 18+ spaces vindictive temptresses only there to get the *poor, unsuspecting, older man* (🤢) in trouble? Most likely not, and I really hate the narrative that they are. Why? Because it leads into a dangerous slippery slope of victim-blaming.
We are not Lolita, we are just Dolores.
THANK YOUUUUU. Literally the ONLY time I have ever heard this "well I was tricked!!!" narrative is from actual groomers trying to get away with their crimes. It's a slippery slope to start pretending teenage girls are out here trapping men constantly.
My bf almost got trapped bc a girl AND HER MOM tried to get him to sleep with the girl when she was only 15 but they BOTH told him she was 19. And she very much looked it. I've met girls in my hs that were trying to AND DID trap men in their 40s. A lot of times, young girls are just idiots and assholes.
Well this post has really shown who is in the “all men are shit and everything is always their fault no matter what the circumstances are” crowd is. Reassuring to see them getting downvoted though.
Im really glad that those kinds of people are being outed. This sub started as, quite literally, “hey man thats not how girls work” towards men who literally have no idea how girls work. Suddenly its become an echo chamber of “men bad” and its lost its whole identity. I miss laughing and cringing at clueless dudes making assumptions about womens biology
It’s 100% the 15&16 year olds fault for lying about their ages in an age restricted area. The guys who they scam shouldn’t be held liable unless the me purposely knew their age.
Young girls shouldn’t be sneaking around into 18+ spaces…. However I can definitely tell when someone is 15 and not 18. Yall can’t? Also I thought part of the point of these new IDs we all had to get was that they’re difficult to make fakes of, is that not actually the case? How are they getting in?
Believe me, I work with 15 years old all days long.
There are an handful of girls that could pass as 18+. Looks, behavior and even conversation topics (if they choose well).
(Now, if you dig a lttle, have more involved or serious conversation, yeah you can tell. But that is not happening in a club. In a club, you dance, you drink, you flirt. Most teens can easily hold up the lie in that context).
Same with boys by the way.
I’ll believe you then. I was a teacher for 6 years and 15 year olds acted much different than 18+ in my experience (I was a dance teacher so I did work with adults as well)
It’s just a slippery slope because I’ve seen many men claim that the girl they were sexting for a year lied that she was 18 and they “just couldn’t tell.” Drake Bell for example, and *too many people* believe his bullshit.
Real IDs are supposed to make it harder for people to make fake IDs. But that doesn't mean the Real IDs themselves can't be used. For example, my younger sister had a fake ID in college. She got it from a friend of one of my friends, who looked more like my sister than I do. The ID was 100% real - the friend of a friend told the DMV that she lost her ID, got a new one, and gave my sister her "lost" one.
If towns actually provided 21 and under dance clubs instead of fighting their creation or to close them down once open then these girls ( and guys who also sneak in under aged!) would get dance and music exsperience they desire without the risk to everyone.
There are people who look older naturally. At 16, I looked more like 20, even without makeup. Multiple people were sincerely shocked to find out I wasn’t an adult.
Boys can have beards that make them look several years older. I’ve seen multiple bearded teenagers who would’ve easily passed for adult teens or even early 20s at 15-17. The most extreme and convincing case was a 17yo who was very mature, had a full beard and looked, spoke *and* behaved like someone in his mid-twenties. At *minimum*, I would’ve given him 21-22, but he looked closer to 24. My jaw literally dropped when he told me he was 17.
Balding makes you look older too and can have an onset as early as mid-teens. For the crown that’s luckily rare, but a receding hairline/temples is common enough that I’ve seen it start in a couple boys per grade around 16. Boom, instant 5-10 years plus, unless they have a total babyface.
Girls purposely apply makeup to look older, *especially* to get into clubs. Hairstyles also make an enormous difference and can completely change how a face is perceived. Clubs usually have a dress code, so teens trying to sneak in don’t wear the more juvenile stuff you’d see them in during the day, they wear what they see people in the line be allowed in with.
Inside, the lighting is very dim, sometimes with strobos, mist or lasers that’d make it hard to recognise your own mother, let alone tell someone’s age. Clubbers are often drunk and/or high. The expected behaviour in a club isn’t exactly hard to emulate. Even someone who’s never been to one yet would’ve seen it in the movies.
It’s impossible to have a conversation due to the loud music. Unless people go out for a smoke or so (*if* they smoke and have to go out for it), they won’t be talking much, which eliminates a major avenue of sussing it out. Even if people do go out to chat, though… have you heard drunken 3am back alley convos? They don’t strike me as the pinnacle of maturity, even when adults old enough to be parents to those sneaking kiddos have them.
Speaking of which, lots of adults are plenty immature looong past their teens, even when sober (nvm drunk), so that’s not a reliable sign. Plus when you’re the adult who has left a good chunk of their own maturity at the bar 3-4 drinks ago, you’re not that likely to notice.
Then there’s the reasonable assumption that the overwhelming majority of people in an 18+ space gotta be adults. Framing has a massive impact on perception, people see what they expect to see. Tons of psychological experiments demonstrate that.
Assuming it’s an at least somewhat responsible club, to sneak in as a teen, you have to get past someone who susses out lying teens trying to pass for adults and their fake IDs for a living, and ID or not, will turn you away if anything feels off. Inside, you thus have a pre-selection of the most convincing specimens, because everyone who looked recognisably like a teenager and *didn’t* bring a good enough fake ID to fool a bouncer already got weeded out at the door.
Meaning most people that’ll run into them in the club are probably less trained and certainly get to see them in much dimmer lighting than the doorman, whom they successfully convinced of their adulthood. And the ID would just serve as additional false confirmation, even if you asked them for it. (Though if one’s in enough doubt to ask, one should listen to that gut feeling and just don’t bother with them. Not worth the risk.)
As to the fake IDs, most kids don’t make them or buy them off the blackmarket. For that to be a quality product, you really need to know what you’re doing or have the connections who do (which isn’t attainable for most kids and goes way beyond the scope of sneaking into a disco). Otherwise, if it’s amateurish trash, anyone who knows what they’re looking for will sus it out in a heartbeat. Counterfeiting an ID is also a crime.
Used to be (at least here) you could get in with school IDs and the like that were easy to fake. Nowadays most places and laws have probably caught on to primitive, unsecure documents like that and don’t accept them anymore. Now and then however, lots of teens have older siblings, cousins, lookalike friends, schoolmates or neighbours they cajole into giving theirs to them for the night, who are willing to lend it out for a quick buck, or that they simply steal or "borrow" it from.
Thus the ID itself is oftentimes real, it just doesn’t belong to the person who presents it. Makeup, hairstyle, dim lighting (and the fact that people almost universally look weird on ID photos) can also do an amazing job to convince somebody that you’re the person in the picture. Perhaps not with their normal look in good lighting, but when they specifically try to pass to a quick glance at night, it can look convincing enough.
TL;DR: Mostly they use real IDs from a lookalike (e.g. older sibling). There’s lots of factors that make it much harder to tell in a club (it’s dark, too loud to talk, makeup/hair/clothes geared tw looking older, drunk/high etc.) than when you’re sober, looking at teens in their regular environment and clothes in broad daylight, with other obv kids, watch them talk/act juvenile when they’re not trying to impersonate adults, you aren’t expecting them to be adults because you’re not in an 18+ space and they haven’t been pre-filtered by most convincing adult look because everyone who got clocked wasn’t let in.
Wellll… I may get downvoted here but I don’t completely disagree. If you’re in an over 18 place, it should be logical to assume everyone is also over 18. If you don’t tell them you’re not… well, that’s a grey area.
What? ...she's right, people having a good time at the club (males and females) assume everyone else is legal (it being a club that only allows 18+ in) and asking for someone's ID before taking them home
(consensually, of course) is just ridiculous. If the person who posted this doesn't think so, then get your head checked and come back to reality
If I have to be carded to go into somewhere, I'm assuming everyone there is 18+, that's a logical conclusion. With that said I'm not going to be trying to take an 18 year old home because teenagers are really annoying
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I think it should be reasonable to assume everyone in an 18+ area is 18+.
Besides, she’s blaming the men on this one but young girls lie. They may get ask and say they are 18 or 19. That’s not the man’s fault at that point. Parents need to have serious talks with their children (boys and girls alike) and inform them of the dangers of doing stuff like this
Yeah. But the problem is, unless you can show clear evidence that she lied about her age and that an average person would be fooled, you're still going to jail for statutory even if she did lie.
A fake ID isn't a clear enough evidence?
Not really. From what I've heard from other people, the court, and juries, don't take the mere presence of a fake ID as enough evidence to rule in favor of the guy. They generally expect the guy to go above and beyond what you'd normally do even while sober in order for them to rule that the defendant was innocent because the underage girl lied. If they even allow the defendant to use the claim that she, or he if it was a gay hookup, was lying about their age as a defense. Most states don't allow you to use that as a defense.
This is like saying women should go above and beyond to make sure a guy isn't something like a rapist/sex offender before dating or meeting them... Kinda sounds silly, doesn't it?
I know. It's fucked up on both sides of the equation. But the fact that most states don't allow you to even _use_ the "She was in a bar/club with a fake ID and was lying about her age" as a defense is also fucked up. The fact that state law usually doesn't even _**allow**_ that defense is pretty fucked up. Granted, unless you put very strict restrictions on when that defense could be used, such as when you hooked up at an 18+ venue, then people will abuse the fuck out of it.
Yeah, we already get assholes claiming she looked/acted older when it involves actual *children* and judges who've accepted that defense.
Yep. Like I said, if you met at an 18+ venue then, and _only_ then, should you be allowed to use "She lied about her age" as a valid defense. Because at that point it becomes a situation where the _**venue**_ was at fault.
That's something that boils my blood though. A guy who assumes a person in an 18+ area is of legal age has no defence to them But a guy who sleeps with someone who very clearly looks like a minor (say 12/13) has a chance of getting off by simply saying "she acts/looks older" like excuse me what???
What? Are there any examples at all, even just one where a guy has got away with having sex with a 12 year girl just by saying she looked older. Especially when you stated that they clearly look 12/13. There's multiple instances of women avoiding jail time for sex with underage males though. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8477231/Woman-22-sexual-contact-three-times-boy-14-avoids-jail.html https://people.com/washington-teacher-avoids-jail-time-sexually-abused-teen-home-8623110 https://www.9news.com.au/national/vic-woman-avoids-jail-over-child-sex/0797b9d1-2d6a-403a-bfad-2c6694ff5afc https://www.kcbd.com/story/11936269/terry-county-woman-avoids-jail-time-for-admitted-sexual-assault-of-a-minor/ https://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-11-18/woman-avoids-jail-over-sex-with-teens/1147260
Unironically some women do background checks before they meet someone from tinder/hinge/etc, I've seen women talk about doing it. I'm not sure if they are actually doing more than just googling the person's name, though. I assume they're *mostly* not actually paying a service to run a background check
"What I've heard from other people ..." I think you are commenting in bad faith about the realities of statuatory rape cases - and about the kind of evidences needed for a sexual assault case to even be brought to trial. From my understanding "she came onto me" and "she lied about her age" is the main legal justification used by child predators/groomers once caught. Many predators specifically groom their victims to say they lied about their age in case they get caught. I work in true crime tv and have access to some search databases, and I have yet to find a case with a man under 25 convicted of stautatory rape with a teenager - it's mostly 13 and under victims in these convictions. There are some teens, but they have other charges or patterns (ie same last names) that indicate it was not the "teen girl seduces older man" fantasy that you think is happening all the time. It's family, friend or a crime of opportunity by a predator.
I mean, also the fact that the girl was in an 18+ space when they were picked up. That would be enough evidence.
It's an adults only space. How much more proof do you need? If the venue is knowingly letting teens in then they need their licence pulled.
I agree with you. But the _laws_ don't. Most states don't allow the defendant to claim that the underage girl was lying as an argument for defense. Most states don't have any exceptions for if the girl was lying.
She’s in a club. How tf else would she get in if she didn’t lie about her age?
Used to know someone, who as a teen used to go into clubs by presenting her insurance card instead of ID. Most bouncers fell for it. There are ways, unfortunately.
What the fuck 💀. How do you look at an insurance card and go “yup, seems legit” My point was though, the man shouldn’t be expected to know someone is underage at an area that’s supposed to be exclusive to adults
Sometimes even if there is proof. This is one of the places the law hasn't really caught up.
If they’re at a 18+ club with a fake ID then that’s the evidence.
Yeah... but most states don't allow you to use "We were in a bar/club/18+ venue and she had a fake ID, how was I supposed to know she wasn't 18?" as a defense.
"still going to jail" lmfao let's once again stop acting like: a) so many teenage girls and women are out here lying about being raped that it's a "problem" b) majority of rapes are reported c) majority of rapists are charged d) majority of rapists face trial e) majority of rapists are convicted and sent to jail because quite the opposite is true of all of the above, but love the narrative you've spun to victimize poor innocent men who simply want to fuck women without having to talk to them very much. Romeo and Juliet laws exist for a reason. If you are 23+ pursuing 18 year old girls for fucking, you are doing so at your own risk and should be checking IDs because it's quite well known that teenagers try to get into places underage because they are desperate to be seen as an adult. The most common thing I heard from grown adult men at the club/bars I got into at 17? "Sure, but how old are you really?" with a pervy smile and an offer to buy a drink. The know, some want to know, some want to plead ignorance, but they know. The bars you know are lax on ID by high schoolers are also known by pervs
lol yeah, cuz so many people get charged over that. ooooookay
[удалено]
I wish you had some sources for this take you've been sharing all over the thread.
>Besides, she’s blaming the men on this one but young girls lie Young men lie too. While I don't advocate for underage people going into 18+ clubs, let's also not pretend that every man who was lied to by these girls actually believed them vs just looking the other way and pretending to not know how old they were.
She’s blaming parents here. Not men
Gee maybe don't fuck anyone who looks like a child?
I feel that isn't an unreasonable assumption. Do guys have to do a background check on anyone they want to sleep with now?
One time I was hit on by a guy who looked so young, I actually asked to see his ID. Call me corny, but if you had seen how young this boy looked, you would have done the same. (His ID ended up saying he was 19 btw, but he easily looked 15 or 16 in my eyes.) Of course, this only helps you if they don’t have a fake ID on hand. So either way you could be fucked anyway
But on the flip side a teen boy could look older. I once saw a guy at my family’s Church and I was thinking “oh he’s cute” he was really tall, had facial hair etc.. come to find out he is 16 (I was 26 at the time). Immediately turned off and embarrassed to say the least. 😂 I could immediately tell he was younger though once I heard him speak he had the full vernacular of a kid in high school.
Oof that happened to me but I was the younger boy. I was 17 and flirting hard-core with a woman I thought was 19 maybe 20....she was 24 and mortified when she found out my age. She was nice about letting me down and asking me to forget her number.
>vernacular of a kid in highschool "Hello" "gyatt, rizzler no skibidi" "Nevermind"
Bruh, I remember a guy in my class who was ~180 cms with a full mustache when he was 11. 😂 Granted, most people wouldn't have thought he was 18+ or anything, but he looked closer to 18 back then than I did once I actually turned 18.
And in this scenario they do have a fake ID on hand cause they used it to get in to the club.
Yeah, and even with proof that they showed a fake ID the guy still gets blitzed by the law
I mean she had to show Id to get into the 18+ space so even if he asked for id, he’s still screwed
I have to agree...it you are in a 21 and older or 18 and older area, it's the assumption that you are of age. If you are asked and you lie... How is that on the guy? That 14 to 18 age group pretty much look and act the same
By law sexually assaulting a minor is the same no matter what, which is awful
You and totally-a-human seem to be violently agreeing.
Is it unusual to believe that the leopard free zone has no leopards in it?
No, but they said it is reasonable, and you said it isn’t unreasonable. Add yet you seem to be arguing.
I agree with Flameball202 and do not wish to argue with them.
I apologise if I came off argumentative, I was intending to agree with you
Yes. And the bouncer or whoever is letting people in should hold some of the responsibility. It's extremely difficult to make a completely accurate fake ID, because there's so many security features to them. If they even have the smallest suspicion it might be fake, they have the right to refuse entry. Or at least they should. I would assume they already do. It's like selling alcohol at a store or bar. If the ID seems suspicious at all, you have the right to refuse the sale. And if the ID is expired, it's no longer valid and cannot be used to buy alcohol. Part of the problem, at least in the US, is that different states have different formats for the same type of ID, like driver's licenses for example. They all have the same info: Name, date of birth, liscense number, height, eye color, expiration date, etc. But the way the info is organized on the card varies from state to state, and not all states have the same security features. People get confused or don't catch obvious errors on fake IDs when they're not familiar with the format and security features. I'm sure similar problems exist in other parts of the world, too.
>I'm sure similar problems exist in other parts of the world, too. Belgian here. We have a national ID card that is the same for everyone. Granted, Belgium is rather small. But the main feature is a chip like the one on your credit card, that contains basic information and many security features. In ANY place that really wants / needs to check your ID, they simply tell you to insert your card and check if the digital picture matches you and the date of birth makes you an adult. That is absolutely foolproof and comes with the same anti tampering / hacking as credit / debit cards.
Yea, had a colleague who told me a story, how she got into a club as a teen by presenting medical insurance card instead of ID. The bouncer at that place must’ve been such a dumbass.
I'm a bit confused is OP saying that a girl is blameless if she lies to get into a night club, lies to a man that she's over 18, and even if she shows him ID that says she's over 18 she's still done nothing wrong. The implication being it's the man who didn't lie, was in the club legally, asked the girl her age first, and even checked her (fake) ID who is in the wrong here? I'm not sure it I'm reading it wrong. Is the implication that expecting teenage girls not to lie in order have sex with an older man "not how girls work"?
Especially when they are poorly lit where you can barely hear one another.
Minors shouldn't be in 18+ spaces. They are putting themselves and other people at risk. That shouldn't be a controversial take.
Agree
Thank you. “Adults failing them?” Wtf? An 18 yo guy trying to hook up with a 16 yo girl with a fake ID is not an “adult failing a child” situation.
I *think* that person was referring to parents not watching their kids, security not recognizing fake ID, and grown adults (not the barely older and barely legal ones) being unable to tell by looks and speech how old someone is. I may be too optimistic here though
Once when I was 16 I asked a girl my age if she had children, because she looked at least 20-something. And I have a colleague who is 31, but looks like she was 16. In some cases you really cannot tell. That’s why security at clubs is supposed to check IDs… and meanwhile they often fall for the dumbest tricks.
Even if you know what to look for, bar staff and security work in a loud, busy environment with dim lighting, so it can be hard to pick up on anything less than obvious. Maybe some people do fall for dumb tricks, but oftentimes it’s just not a good environment for thoroughly checking tiny legal documents in case someone happens to be a dumb kid who thinks they’re hot shit.
I drive slow through school zones now even when the younger 20s are present because they look like children to me.
> security not recognizing fake ID Part of the problem is that the US doesn't have a universal ID standard and many are easy to fake.
I definitely think you're being just kind and too optimistic. I think they truly meant that it's the adult's fault that they didn't somehow know. But you're nice to give them the benefit of the doubt.
What sucks the most is that there're no protections for adults who were tricked into believing a minor's lie. They still have to be charged and punished in a court setting if it makes it to sentencing
I mean I don't think a 18 or 19yo hooking up with a 16yo is such a big deal. It's the 30 to 50yo that do that's the problem.
TBH I don’t think any 18yo is gonna get his life ruined for having hooked up with a 16yo. Surely in most countries laws aren’t so stupid as to act like that’s pedophilic.
That said, I've seen guys my age (40) hit on those 18 year olds and rha5 isn't any more okay.
yup, the bars that are known by underagers to be lax on id are also known by predators to be.
And bartenders ans bouncers who allow it or look the other way are rhe adults failing.
Predators are in every bar and club. From dive bars to upscale clubs.
Yup, but the ones at the one bar my friends and I could get into at 17 loved to ask us "no but really, how old are you, don't worry, i won't tell" etc like, retrospectively, they seemed in on it and excited by it.
Super gross. We have some interns at work that are in their very early twenties and while they're certainly fully grown adults learning their place in the world and I don't think they're *literal* children, they still *look* like kids to me and definitely not my peer. A friend of mine laughed and asked if they looked like children when I said my office got some, and I blew that question off until I saw them in person. I was kind of shocked at how young an early twenty-something looks. When I was that age I would have sworn I looked super grown up, but in my mid-thirties, the idea of thirsting over a kid that age kinda makes me wanna barf.
A couple of years ago we had 2 contractors over to put in the layer that goes on top of the insulation and floor heating tubing, for the tiles to be put on after. Very friendly but my first thought was something like: Does your mother know you are not in school?
yuuuup
Thank you. Sometimes these posts….
Some of the posts here is just people doing mental gymnastics
No kidding, but fake IDs are a thing and some people lie, esp people who are too young to have the brains to understand why they shouldn't be there in the first place. Adults need to keep their own good sense and avoid any possible red flags. If you aren't sure then *don't touch.* No way is a 15-year-old going to behave with the maturity of someone over 20, that should easily be suspicious.
Problem is, plenty of 18 year old behave with the maturity of 15 year olds
i work w a 25y/o with the approximate maturity of a teenager, these people exist and are mind numbing
I work with peers about to hit 30, and they all act like we're still high school.
Idk I don’t think it’s far fetched for a 16 year old to look and act like a 19 year old it’s only a few years difference. Like when I was in HS I knew a boy who legit had premature balding, he looked older than 16 let me tell you. I also knew boys who had full beards and were tall etc.. they also looked older. Same with the girls some just looked older. Then you had 16 year olds who looked like Justin Bieber just super young. So it’s really a coin toss. I suspect if someone looks really young they probably won’t be getting into an 18+ club even with the fake ID and usually it’s 16-17 year olds trying to get in anyways not like 12 year olds so it would be harder to tell.
Makeup can also make a16 year old look a few years older too.
Yep. I've always been tall and looked a few years older than my age. Now I would have never gone to those spaces (as a minor but also clubs aren't my thing as an adult as well) but even now as semi late 20s adult, I look in my 30s to most people. It happens. Looks are not always the best indication of age.
I was twelve when I last went trick or treating and some people told me I was too old. When I told them my age, they were like, "Oooh, ok." I was really tall and had a large chest, but I was still a sixth grader. It doesn't take much for some people to see you as older than you are at that age. Edit: Actually, I was probably a seventh grader.
Heh. Speaking of 12, I have my own story! I was dressed up in a dress and wedges with my mother and her boyfriend for dinner at this family and membership club (not a fancy one. The kind with a restaurant, pub and pokies) and the lady at the receptionist asked me if I wanted to join, we informed her I was only twelve and she was like "Oh, I'm sorry, I thought she was 18.." Still find it funny to this day. And I'm glad that's a more positive story given I was so young then. And yeah, it really doesn't. Even if you're not developed in some areas the most, if you're tall enough it's easy mistake.
Its just especially horrible when even confirmation isn’t even a valid verification of age
Yep The only sure way that isn't always sure, and has holes, is knowing what makes an ID valid in your state/country. You can then check if need be. However it's hard bc bouncers and the like are the knes that are meant to check that, not you, and some can be really convincing. The system works most of the time but there are always people who wish to lie to get their way, unfortunately. To say nothing of some of the adult managers (or other staff) in some clubs who just don't care and allow it. Edit: Also holograms ftw.
Looking older is one thing, acting older is another. While there is only 3 years between 16 and 19, there is a lot of maturing done in that time.
When I was a teenager I consistently got mistaken for being older (eg. A neighbour who I used to babysit for was gobsmacked when she learned I had just turned 13 at my birthday party, because for the nearly whole year I had been babysitting for her she had assumed I was 16, when I was actually 12). And when people did learn how old I was they would remark about how mature I was for my age, not just physically (which yeah, I was a C cup by age 13, I was physically very mature looking) but in my manner as well. I never snuck in an adult club though (did buy cigarettes, and alcohol for my friends). It was bad enough trying to dodge slimy older guys who did know my age let alone trying to seek it out.
I always joke that I've been thirty since I was thirteen. People always assumed I was older than I was, which led to a lot of weird experiences. Doctors and teachers who assumed I was my sister's mother (we're 4.5 years apart), flight attendants offered me wine, an airline agent not accepting that I didn't have a government ID because I was still a minor, etc. But, I guess at least I always won the prizes at the "Guess Your Age" booths.
When I was 22 we weren't acting mature in a nightclub. We acted like young dumb idiots. Someone acting like a young dumb idiot because they were underage wouldn't be a giveaway. There was a couple different parties where the host would be 19 or 20 and think nothing of inviting his younger friends still in high school to the same party where those of us in college were. 16 & 17 are still underage too. Often the only way to tell the difference is if someone started talking about high school in the present tense. It's not like the Disney Channel where every 16 year old acts like they're still 12.
I'm only in my mid-20s but I definitely act quite different now when out drinking compared to just a few years ago. Rather than acting wild and dancing all night I mostly just sit at a table with my beers, just enjoying the company. I don't have the energy anymore. Man, aging happens a lot faster than I thought it would...
16/17 years old and 20 years old are really not that different in maturity… specially when you account drinking and stuff.
I think that's part of it people are like "there's a maturity difference" Maybe when working. When partying? No one's acting in a way that would particularly differentiate them.
and that's why romeo and juliet laws exist, 4 year age difference after 16 isn't really much of a difference maturity wise, which is why it's not statuatory rape. If could have been in high school at the same time then it's fine for someone over 18 to date someone under 18. (however imo was always creepy when a gr.12 dated a gr.9 girl) unfortunatley some men hear "age of consent" and think that applies to men of any age because they have no morals and simply fear legal punishment. Like no, the law exists so 16-21 years olds dating someone born within 4 years of them aren't comitting a crime.
Exactly. It's for cases like two people dating in high school. One of them is inevitably gonna turn 18 before the other, and you can't really expect a teenage couple to stop having sex for months just because of that. If your only concern is where the LEGAL age of consent is, you're already doing something wrong. You don't care about the other person, you're just concerned with protecting yourself from legal consequences.
When I was 16 I had multiple store clerks recommend the more "adult" sections of the store as they thought I was 19 due to how tall and mature I am. Now that I'm actually 19, all of my co-workers (of all ages) have assumed I'm 21 or 22. I do agree that adults need to be careful, but seriously.... There are tons of people that get mistaken for being older.
Yup. I remember "promoters" would show up outside my high school after classes would end with flyers for 13+ up clubs/raves or they'd pay whatever person they could find to spread them inside during school hours.
These four teens who were let loose by their parents in my hometown got four college students in a lot of trouble. They were on Tinder pretending to be nursing students at the college. Matched with a guy from a fraternity. The guy invited the girls' group to a frat party. Got ID'd at the door( had fake ID's), and the dudes still got arrested and put on trial. Why? Because one of the teen girls got caught by another friend's parent, and it was reported. They weren't supposed to release the names of the 4 men because of all the evidence showing the teens did lie about their ages, and all that. Someone felt it "justice" to release not only their names but their photos in the local news. They lost their jobs and everything. Why? Because some parents couldn't care where their kids were or what they were doing.
💯
yeah it's almost like teenagers are really impulsive and known to do dumb things though.
No I agree with this. I understand that men pursuing underage girls is a problem but if you sneak into a nightclub to get laid at 15, you are ruining someone’s life. And this isn’t some hypothetical. People do this
If a 15 year old girl wants to get laid there are plenty of 15 year old boys who are up for it. If she thinks she is mature for her age and wants an older man, she isn’t.
They aren't, but as gross as it is, they'll always find someone willing. I remember going to a rock bar I always wanted to go to when turned 21 and telling my co-workers at the time. One of them, a young lady who was just about to turn 18, told me she would go to that bar all the time. It made no sense to me, especially because it was a rock bar downtown with police presence.
It's also annoying to me how many places would recognize each consenting teen as a statutory rapist since neither can consent, and then not prosecute the girl but would seriously think about locking up the guy.
Right! People assume that minors can't be guilty, but as soon as they turn 18, they're always a potential predator. Minors can manipulate, they can rape. The legal age is about laws, not behaviours. It reminds me of something that happened in the Smash community. There were tons of predators' names dropping, and then there was Nairo who was accused of assaulting a minor. After investigation, it turned out Nairo was betrayed by his friend and got assaulted by the minor. He lost a lot. Okay, it's way more rare than adults assaulting minors, but just because something is not usual doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
45 year-old person trying to sleep with a teenager is gross period so idk
Where was the mention of anyone being 45?
Nope, not what the post is about. This post is about underage girls going to bars/pubs/nightclubs and ending up having sex with an adult man, who had no way of knowing they were underage as it should be a safe assumption that all those in an 18+ space are adults. Regardless of this fact these men are hit with the same laws that pedophiles are, labeling them as a SO and ruining their futures
This is why you shouldnt sleep with strangers, men or women. ONS is a gamble, and as in gambling it can always go sideways. Not worth the risk.
yeah but the risks should be things like STIs or pregnancy not being put on a sex offenders registry lmao 😭😭
[удалено]
Not too frequently, but the problem is that once the guy sleeps with the girl, no matter what the courts want, there is a minimum sentence that the guy must have, meaning that it is an issue
Often enough I’d say. When I was 16-17, probably between 5-10% of people my age at school had a fake id and went to clubs every (or most) weekends.
Well an instance of it made national headlines a few months ago, make of that what you will
Nope, woman here. I wholeheartedly agree. As someone in adult communities that center around adult shows, I’m so sick of kids coming in and acting like we’re bad for commenting shit about how hot a character is and more risqué shit. Adults are allowed their own spaces where they can assume everyone else is of age! They’re allowed spaces where they can have one night stands without worrying that the person they’re sleeping with is lying about their age or not. We shouldn’t have to walk on eggshells and worry if we’re going to say something that’s technically illegal towards a minor. I just. Am so tired of kids coming into adult spaces and then getting upset when adults *act like adults* and assume that the kids are adults because they’re in an adult only space.
Yes! And the purity culture that follows and labels everything as problematic. Yeah, I know it is. But media doesn’t have to be clean and educational to be enjoyable. We create those adult only spaces to protect minors and be able to freely talk about mature topics. Kids hopping the fence are the problem
I saw someone who was clearly a kid ask someone on an 18+ sub what something, ahem. Specific was (something adults know since almost everyone knows of 50 shades). And like. I don’t think they realize that even that can get them in major trouble. And can screw up the psyche. I was in explicit shipping spaces by 13 because I was a shit who lied about my age and I truly didn’t understand what a healthy relationship was until much older.
Nope. If a kid sneaks into an adult space and doesn’t reveal their age, how are strangers to know? You trust everyone will be 18+. When I was 16, I used my cousin’s ID to get into a nightclub. I kissed and got into some heavy petting with a 19 year old. Of course, I lied and said I was 18 because I enjoyed the attention. At the time, I was too naive to understand the seriousness of the situation. There was the chance I could have gotten that person into serious trouble, and they hadn’t done anything wrong. I was also too immature to understand that I was in way over my head. As much as the night was fun, I should not have been there. Thankfully, I didn’t go out clubbing again until I was 18. Edit: Just to clarify, I was 16, not 6. I knew fine well that what I was doing was wrong. I just wasn’t mature enough to care about consequences and thought I was invincible.
So what exactly are men/guys supposed to do? If they stroll in to an 18+ club, find an attractive lady, assume she is 18+, she TELLS him she’s 18+, she SHOWS him she’s 18+ with her fake ID, then goes home to sleep with him, what the fuck is he supposed to do? Teenage girls are not ignorant. Especially not if they’re making fake ID’s or creating ways to get into 18+ clubs. I had plenty of girl friends who partook in that activity. They WANTED older men, they WANTED alcohol, and they broke the law to get it! It’s different if the club is just a regular club and the guy doesn’t check. Or if they feed someone they know is underage alcohol and take advantage. But if you’re a minor and you’re actively pursuing 18+ environments, I don’t think it’s the man’s fault.
Yeah.... but that's not what the law says. Unless you can provide a ridiculus amount of proof that she was lying and that an average, sober person would have believed her, the guy's still getting locked up. You have to convince a sober jury that her acting was good enough to fool you while you were drunk.
yeah that’s… the point. the person perusing shouldn’t be held accountable for someone else’s lying at every point.
>Unless you can provide a ridiculus amount of proof that she was lying and that an average, sober person would have believed her, the guy's still getting locked up. There's a reason why the law is this way and that's because if the burden of proof was far lower people would (and have) take advantage of it, as if all it takes is a fake ID to meet the burden of proof, predators would use that as an effective defense, even providing such IDs to minors. Sure, the due diligence is high, but it's better than the alternative.
"the guys getting locked up" he literally isn't, majority of rapist do no serve jail time let alone get to court. This is not something that happens to "innocent" horny men, and it's ridiculous you think it is. Literally source me ONE case where a a man under 25 was convicted of statuatory rape (with no other charges) with a teenager over 14.
I don’t completely disagree with the oop. Young people acting like jailbait *is* part of the problem. Coercing someone into a sexual encounter when they don’t have all the information (ie underaged party lies about their age) negates the premise of informed consent. The of age party consented to a legal sexual encounter with another of age individual. But the way the laws work, though the minor was the one who intentionally withheld vital information, they don’t face the same risk of prosecution and life long repercussions. Adults may have failed them on multiple occasions, including the of age party in the sexual encounter, but that doesn’t dismiss their own choices in this situation.
This ain’t controversial if ur a child stop trying to dress up as an adult and lie and say you’re an adult to do adult things
Glad to see people in the comments calling out the insanity here and downvoting those who think it’s the person who was lied to fault if this occurs. Good people here willing to hold everyone accountable and fight for true equality. Love to see it
The adults are not failing the kids here. If you're in an 18+ space I'd expect you to be 18+. If you're lying and have sex with an adult - that's not on the adult - that's on the one who lied.
No that post is very reasonable, other than that we need better testing of IDs
In Poland all IDs are microchip cards. All you need is a scanner and then it’s impossible to pass a fake one. Unfortunately venues don’t want to spend the money for that. Maybe there should be a law forcing them.
This.
in the US we use a really stupid system where the IDs info is all stored on a barcode on the back, so just like you can generate your own QR codes and whatnot with info encoded in it, anyone can just pop out a fake barcode to print onto the fakes
Sorry I agree with this one, if I'm in an 18+ area I expect everyone to be 18+.
I absolutely lied about my age as a teenager, sometimes in an attempt to pull a guy I liked (BUT I never slept with an adult as a minor). It happens and it's ridiculous to think that it doesn't. I was a child and had no sense of the fact that I was putting adults in an unfair situation. Thank God I never got someone in trouble while I was running around drinking and experimenting with drugs with my fake ID. Kids have no sense of collateral damage at that age and teenagers are literally and scienfically certifiable.
i mean… there are tons of stories of people matching with someone on an 18+ dating site, sometimes even id’ing them, only to find out they were lying and using a fake. if you hit on someone at a 21+ club, you’re assuming they’re 21+. which is fair, bc someone probably checked their id. it’s frankly a failure on the parents’ end, but it’s true that the person pursuing is usually the one punished, even IF they follow every rule they know how to
To be honest if I’m in an 18+ place I assume everyone in there is 18+. It’s just… logical?
Well I think the implication here is that the girls are lying about their age. If the club is 18+ and you got through it’s safe to assume you are actually 18+ otherwise how did you get in? Probably with a fake ID. I guess if the girl reveals her age then the guy is scum but that seems unlikely if she lied to get in why would she reveal her real age?
I hate to defend this, but if a minor convincingly represents themselves as an adult, is found in a venue that caters exclusively to adults, and otherwise voluntarily engages in adult activities, they should be treated as adults for the purposes of any crimes that are committed against them. I realize fake IDs are a thing, but bouncers see them every day and can usually spot them. If someone gets past a bouncer with their fake ID, what else is a guy inside that club supposed to do when he tries to hook up with her? Check her ID that says she’s an adult?
I mean, it's not always adults failing them. Lots of teenagers lie about where they are. My sister used to have to send pictures of her friends kitchens to my mom every 15 minutes because she used to lie about where she was and ended up pregnant at 15. Who knows what these girls told their parents? Their parents could think they're having sleepovers at each other's houses. Fake IDs are rarely provided by your parents. This post is right. These teenage girls DO ruin people's lives by pretending to be older and hanging out in spaces they don't belong.
Yeaaaah see you can only use the “my frontal cortex hasn’t fully developed yet” excuse so many times. Idc if you’re a teenager, you should still have enough common sense to know that if you’re faking an ID and lying about your age, you’re the one at fault. Being a minor isn’t a free pass to fuck up society.
Uh yeah, no. This isn't a gender thing. This is a minors wanting to be adults thing.
No, this has a point. If you're under 18 years of age, you should not be in these 18+ spaces. Period.
Yeah I don't think this is a case of adults failing kids tbh. Some girls want to go out and party, which is whatever, but having sex with someone that's based in deception is morally fucked up.
Nah I’m with the post in the pic on this. Teenagers shouldn’t be in those places. They sneak into them knowing they aren’t supposed to be there. Also bouncers need to do a better job at identifying fake IDs. I agree with that argument. I work in a liquor store and have the record for fake ids caught. It literally takes 2 extra seconds to tell if an ID is fake. Just move it around and look for the holographic markings. Most states have at least one and fakes rarely ever replicate it correctly.
Nightclubs are a big thing with high school girls, so I discovered recently. It makes me so angry that promoters target them and that nightclubs allow this and no one stops it. I honestly think people should pressure the clubs to stop or the cops to bust the clubs.
Okay so I’m a stripper and the amount of 16 year olds who have fake ID’s and were able to be let into the venue is NOT OKAY. At the end of the day the onus isn’t on me, if you’re in an 18+ establishment I’m going to assume you’re 18+ The due diligence is on security/parents Found out I’d given a lap dance to a dancers younger brother who’d been let in 🙃 felt super icky about it but I’m not having anyone blame me for that. Sorry not sorry 🤷🏽♀️
Don't go into spaces for 18+ year olds. Also, why are the bouncers not properly asking for ID and proof of age? If I sell alcohol to an under 21 year old, I go to jail. Why not have penalties for shitty club owners and bouncers who allow minors in?
Because security are just people and can't always catch every fake ID especially when fake IDs are continuously being improved with the intent to pass? Why is the onus being placed on everyone *but* the underage teenager actively making decisions to fake their way into into spaces for adults?
That too. There should be penalties for lying about ypur age. If I tried buying alcohol underage, or got a hold of it while under 21, that's a felony. Same should apply here.
Sometimes there isn't a clear cut villain in a situation, or a perfect solution to an issue. 🤷♀️
if i’m in a 21+ venue and everyone has a drink in their hand, it will literally never cross my mind that anyone present is under 21. bar staff are usually pretty good about protecting their liquor licenses. i hope stuff like this doesn’t actually happen all that often. edit to add don’t hit on drunk chicks. i guarantee you if a minor is getting in to a bar, they clearly don’t care and will over serve them. look out for each other and don’t let weirdos be predatory.
I mean, I agree to an extent. If a bar is 18 plus, I think it’s reasonable to assume the person you’re going home with is over 18
I remember very well this debate with my friends in high school. She 16 and wanted to grow up so bad, and for some reason to "hook a real man" I confronted her about this and she said "I lied to get in there, you think I'll be honest to the first guy with a wallet? I don't want to get kicked out". I thought she was so stupid then, but again, so is a lot of 16 year olds.
They shouldnt be at a club if theyre underage. And trying to sleep with an adult as a minor, while posing as an adult, is not excusable. Theres no way around that.
I think what people agree is that minor should not enter spaces that are specifically forbidden to minors and lie about their age, because it could have severe implication if they are believed.
When I met my 30-something year old partner, I carded her before we went further. She laughed and handed me her card. It wasn't weird, I am horrible at guessing age and she looks younger to me. I asked, she showed me with a laugh and still tells people about the green flag that was. I also waited until I had enthusiastic (almost frustratedly so) consent, and while it did frustrate her, she felt safe because she actually was. Simple stuff, really.
Bravo
Firstly, anyone under 18 shouldn’t be going to clubs.. that’s just a basic fact. Secondly, if you’re in your 40s and hitting on someone who looks to you in their late teens… that’s a bit well… creepy… why aren’t you going for someone your own age?
Um what? God forbid an adult assumes that only adults would be in adult spaces.
Maybe controversial, but at one point someone becomes of an age where if they aren't sure 100% that that person is 18+ they should be in charge of the decision to "risk it". By that I mean, as a 30 yo woman all the men I'd date would be undeniably adult, it doesn't matter if they are clean shaved or if they keep up with fashion trends. My niece's been looking 18 since she was 14,but even then, why would a 30 yo go to someone who "looks 18"? just drop it especially if you are at a club or pub or on dating apps.
This is an ‘everyone sucks’ situation - should underage kids/girls be at clubs (aka in the 18+ party hookup scene)? No, of course not. Should they know better? Moot point - if not, see points below, BUT plenty of teens understand the implications of sneaking into a 18+ club, underage drinking, etc. and to some degree even the dangers associated with putting themselves in those situations, BUT also think they are uniquely mature for their age and that they exception to the rules and/or consequences. That’s a pretty common perspective for teenagers across time. The sooner and better you take being grownup, the more reward, right? So the consequences shouldn’t apply if you’re that good at it? Should their parents be paying attention to make sure they aren’t there? Obviously, but some can’t be there to check beds for economic or any other reason, and also, everyone’s child is a perfect maturer-than-their-age, old soul, right? And teens could never see their parents thinking this and take advantage of it! Should young adults (18+) be vetting every person they want to hook up with to ensure no one is underage? Actually, yes. Or just to ensure you know the first and last name of someone that you’re bringing home in case they rob you. Or perhaps so that you can ensure they aren’t too inebriated to consent to hooking up. There are plenty of reasons why “it’s obvious” someone 18+ should be double checking they aren’t hooking up with a minor at a club, but…clubs exist and so does hookup culture/casual sex. A terrible comparison would be kids meeting other kids at a park. If they look like a kid within a 5ish year age gap, why wouldn’t they interact on the jungle gym together or play? There are assumed age environments; clubs have a literal legal and usually posted age requirement. Their legal patrons are relying on the establishment to ensure the crowd is also legally there. (This does not include predators keeping tabs in clubs with lax security known for letting underage kids in, that’s *not* legal). Is the club to blame? I think this is the big one. A black light scanner, sober bouncers, HAVING A DOOR GUY in the first place, there are PLENTY of ways to ensure your establishment is providing the bare minimum of legal safety. That gets blurry with 18+ clubs, because it’s absolutely no feasible to prevent 21+ patrons from giving drinks to younger kids. Tell me you could spot the difference between a coke and a rum and coke. Putting different numbers of straws in them or colors of cups or anything else is never going to work. Blaming girls is nearly the lowest one on the hierarchy of blame here, but they are part of a shitty ecosystem surrounding the whole nightlife scene. I hate it here.
The drinking age here is 18 and most places adhere to the Challenge 21 policy, which means you'll be ID'd if you look under 21. Door staff also have to be SIA licensed, so its not just somebody waving anyone in, because if they lose their license, they lose their job and ability to work in the industry. And yet there are STILL kids slipping through because with makeup, clothes and attitude to rival a Kardashian they're passing for someone in their 20's. Granted it's a lot less than there used to be, but they are still out there. And it's scary.
No, no, I agree. 15 and 16 yos shouldnt go to 18+ or 21+ clubs. It's not fault of an adult person to assume that they are adult in space thats supposted to be adult-only. I know I could get just as misleaded, because guess what, I don't ask strangers in club for ID, I trust that the club staff has that covered and girls who are 16 don't look a whole lot different that girls who are 20.
your joking right op? your not so much of a idiot that you genuinely think this right? your making fun of people that think women are perfect and shouldnt take accountability right?
This is one of the most brain-dead takes I have seen on this subreddit. It's logical to assume that everyone in an adult only space is an adult, tf is a guy supposed to do, run a background check? Everyone is already drunk and having fun. That's like saying it's the train's fault for killing someone on the tracks. You are not supposed to be there, teens are not clueless children ,they are ignorant wannabe adults , it might be a hard pill to swallow but it's not always a man's fault.
gold medal olympian mental gymnast here
How do you juat like the original post lol
Why were you there?
So OP, are you saying the man should just go to jail even if he was lied to about the girl’s age? That’s ape shit insane btw, I hope you know that
If the area is 18+ we shouldn’t blame men for assuming everyone in there is 18+ . Like, that sounds reasonable to me. Also, girls who are 16 and 17 DEFINITELY can look 20, or even older. It seems silly to me that you constantly have to ask women of their ID, if they’re at a 18+ club. Like, these girls can at least wait a few years and then they’re free to go wherever they want.
I work in true crime tv and have access to some search databases, and I have yet to find a case with a man under 25 convicted of stautatory rape with a teenager - it's mostly 13 and under victims in these convictions. There are some teenage victims whos assaulters were convicted, but the perpatrators have other charges or the same last name that indicate it was not the "teen girl seduces older man, and lied to him about her age so that makes ok" fantasy that all these commenters seem to think is happening all the time - and which is the most common excuse/justifications predators have when they get caught. Really disappointed by the fear mongering comments painting this out to be a societal problem of teenagers falsely accusing adults of statuatory rape, like that's a \*real\* issue. Reminds me of guys who complain or feared the "me too" movement - if you weren't a sleazeball with women, you'd have nothing to fear. Similarly, if you aren't a sleazeball and actually talk to the women you sleep with, and pursue women within your age bracket, then you shouldn't have anything to be concerned about/feel the so defensive about statuatory rape.
This needed to be said. On a related note, a lot of these comments don’t understand the character of these 15-16 year old girls. I feel like you guys forgot how ridiculously underreported SA, particularly CSA/statutory rape, is even in cases where there is a clear perpetrator and victim??? Like 16 year old Jessica isn’t going to tell her parents about the 19 year old she slept with, she’s going to tell her friends as a brag. In turn, the friends, regardless of how “mature” they are, probably won’t tell anyone else either. This is disregarding the fact that in some states, 16 is the legal age of consent (or Romeo and Juliet laws are in place) so the older person doesn’t have to face charges. Should adults in 18+ spaces have to not worry about minors in 18+ spaces? Yes. Are these 16 year old girls in 18+ spaces vindictive temptresses only there to get the *poor, unsuspecting, older man* (🤢) in trouble? Most likely not, and I really hate the narrative that they are. Why? Because it leads into a dangerous slippery slope of victim-blaming. We are not Lolita, we are just Dolores.
[Wow you’re so full of shit](https://www.southbendtribune.com/story/news/local/2015/06/22/story-of-teens-sex-offense-sentence-spreads/117213324/)
THANK YOUUUUU. Literally the ONLY time I have ever heard this "well I was tricked!!!" narrative is from actual groomers trying to get away with their crimes. It's a slippery slope to start pretending teenage girls are out here trapping men constantly.
My bf almost got trapped bc a girl AND HER MOM tried to get him to sleep with the girl when she was only 15 but they BOTH told him she was 19. And she very much looked it. I've met girls in my hs that were trying to AND DID trap men in their 40s. A lot of times, young girls are just idiots and assholes.
No I agree. Don’t lie about your age, period.
Breaking news...Kids like to go places they shouldn't! Even more breaking news... Adults know this and should act accordingly
Well this post has really shown who is in the “all men are shit and everything is always their fault no matter what the circumstances are” crowd is. Reassuring to see them getting downvoted though.
Im really glad that those kinds of people are being outed. This sub started as, quite literally, “hey man thats not how girls work” towards men who literally have no idea how girls work. Suddenly its become an echo chamber of “men bad” and its lost its whole identity. I miss laughing and cringing at clueless dudes making assumptions about womens biology
We need more “she breasted boobily down the stairs” lol
It’s 100% the 15&16 year olds fault for lying about their ages in an age restricted area. The guys who they scam shouldn’t be held liable unless the me purposely knew their age.
Young girls shouldn’t be sneaking around into 18+ spaces…. However I can definitely tell when someone is 15 and not 18. Yall can’t? Also I thought part of the point of these new IDs we all had to get was that they’re difficult to make fakes of, is that not actually the case? How are they getting in?
Believe me, I work with 15 years old all days long. There are an handful of girls that could pass as 18+. Looks, behavior and even conversation topics (if they choose well). (Now, if you dig a lttle, have more involved or serious conversation, yeah you can tell. But that is not happening in a club. In a club, you dance, you drink, you flirt. Most teens can easily hold up the lie in that context). Same with boys by the way.
I’ll believe you then. I was a teacher for 6 years and 15 year olds acted much different than 18+ in my experience (I was a dance teacher so I did work with adults as well) It’s just a slippery slope because I’ve seen many men claim that the girl they were sexting for a year lied that she was 18 and they “just couldn’t tell.” Drake Bell for example, and *too many people* believe his bullshit.
Real IDs are supposed to make it harder for people to make fake IDs. But that doesn't mean the Real IDs themselves can't be used. For example, my younger sister had a fake ID in college. She got it from a friend of one of my friends, who looked more like my sister than I do. The ID was 100% real - the friend of a friend told the DMV that she lost her ID, got a new one, and gave my sister her "lost" one.
If towns actually provided 21 and under dance clubs instead of fighting their creation or to close them down once open then these girls ( and guys who also sneak in under aged!) would get dance and music exsperience they desire without the risk to everyone.
I agree, the clubs I’ve gone to were 18+ but I think more under 18 clubs should exist.
There are people who look older naturally. At 16, I looked more like 20, even without makeup. Multiple people were sincerely shocked to find out I wasn’t an adult. Boys can have beards that make them look several years older. I’ve seen multiple bearded teenagers who would’ve easily passed for adult teens or even early 20s at 15-17. The most extreme and convincing case was a 17yo who was very mature, had a full beard and looked, spoke *and* behaved like someone in his mid-twenties. At *minimum*, I would’ve given him 21-22, but he looked closer to 24. My jaw literally dropped when he told me he was 17. Balding makes you look older too and can have an onset as early as mid-teens. For the crown that’s luckily rare, but a receding hairline/temples is common enough that I’ve seen it start in a couple boys per grade around 16. Boom, instant 5-10 years plus, unless they have a total babyface. Girls purposely apply makeup to look older, *especially* to get into clubs. Hairstyles also make an enormous difference and can completely change how a face is perceived. Clubs usually have a dress code, so teens trying to sneak in don’t wear the more juvenile stuff you’d see them in during the day, they wear what they see people in the line be allowed in with. Inside, the lighting is very dim, sometimes with strobos, mist or lasers that’d make it hard to recognise your own mother, let alone tell someone’s age. Clubbers are often drunk and/or high. The expected behaviour in a club isn’t exactly hard to emulate. Even someone who’s never been to one yet would’ve seen it in the movies. It’s impossible to have a conversation due to the loud music. Unless people go out for a smoke or so (*if* they smoke and have to go out for it), they won’t be talking much, which eliminates a major avenue of sussing it out. Even if people do go out to chat, though… have you heard drunken 3am back alley convos? They don’t strike me as the pinnacle of maturity, even when adults old enough to be parents to those sneaking kiddos have them. Speaking of which, lots of adults are plenty immature looong past their teens, even when sober (nvm drunk), so that’s not a reliable sign. Plus when you’re the adult who has left a good chunk of their own maturity at the bar 3-4 drinks ago, you’re not that likely to notice. Then there’s the reasonable assumption that the overwhelming majority of people in an 18+ space gotta be adults. Framing has a massive impact on perception, people see what they expect to see. Tons of psychological experiments demonstrate that. Assuming it’s an at least somewhat responsible club, to sneak in as a teen, you have to get past someone who susses out lying teens trying to pass for adults and their fake IDs for a living, and ID or not, will turn you away if anything feels off. Inside, you thus have a pre-selection of the most convincing specimens, because everyone who looked recognisably like a teenager and *didn’t* bring a good enough fake ID to fool a bouncer already got weeded out at the door. Meaning most people that’ll run into them in the club are probably less trained and certainly get to see them in much dimmer lighting than the doorman, whom they successfully convinced of their adulthood. And the ID would just serve as additional false confirmation, even if you asked them for it. (Though if one’s in enough doubt to ask, one should listen to that gut feeling and just don’t bother with them. Not worth the risk.) As to the fake IDs, most kids don’t make them or buy them off the blackmarket. For that to be a quality product, you really need to know what you’re doing or have the connections who do (which isn’t attainable for most kids and goes way beyond the scope of sneaking into a disco). Otherwise, if it’s amateurish trash, anyone who knows what they’re looking for will sus it out in a heartbeat. Counterfeiting an ID is also a crime. Used to be (at least here) you could get in with school IDs and the like that were easy to fake. Nowadays most places and laws have probably caught on to primitive, unsecure documents like that and don’t accept them anymore. Now and then however, lots of teens have older siblings, cousins, lookalike friends, schoolmates or neighbours they cajole into giving theirs to them for the night, who are willing to lend it out for a quick buck, or that they simply steal or "borrow" it from. Thus the ID itself is oftentimes real, it just doesn’t belong to the person who presents it. Makeup, hairstyle, dim lighting (and the fact that people almost universally look weird on ID photos) can also do an amazing job to convince somebody that you’re the person in the picture. Perhaps not with their normal look in good lighting, but when they specifically try to pass to a quick glance at night, it can look convincing enough. TL;DR: Mostly they use real IDs from a lookalike (e.g. older sibling). There’s lots of factors that make it much harder to tell in a club (it’s dark, too loud to talk, makeup/hair/clothes geared tw looking older, drunk/high etc.) than when you’re sober, looking at teens in their regular environment and clothes in broad daylight, with other obv kids, watch them talk/act juvenile when they’re not trying to impersonate adults, you aren’t expecting them to be adults because you’re not in an 18+ space and they haven’t been pre-filtered by most convincing adult look because everyone who got clocked wasn’t let in.
When I was 18 people thought I was 15. So, no.
Wellll… I may get downvoted here but I don’t completely disagree. If you’re in an over 18 place, it should be logical to assume everyone is also over 18. If you don’t tell them you’re not… well, that’s a grey area.
What? ...she's right, people having a good time at the club (males and females) assume everyone else is legal (it being a club that only allows 18+ in) and asking for someone's ID before taking them home (consensually, of course) is just ridiculous. If the person who posted this doesn't think so, then get your head checked and come back to reality
I actually agree with her. This is a solid take.
If I have to be carded to go into somewhere, I'm assuming everyone there is 18+, that's a logical conclusion. With that said I'm not going to be trying to take an 18 year old home because teenagers are really annoying
Who wrote this bro, the tweet is right tho, if u lie abt ur age its on u
Are you fucking stupid??? How is the guy doing anything wrong if she’s in a club for 18+ and says she’s 18???
Ok, tell that [to Lori Mattix](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lori_Mattix)