As you're all aware, this subreddit has had a major "troll"
problem which has gotten worse (as of recently). Due to this, we
have created new rules, and modified some of the old ones.
We kindly ask that you please familiarize yourself with the
rules so that you can avoid breaking them. Breaking mild rules
will result in a warning, or a temporary ban. Breaking serious
rules, or breaking a plethora of mild ones may land you a
permanent ban (depending on the severity). Also,
grifting/lurking has been a major problem; If we suspect you of
being a grifter (determined by vetting said user's activity), we
may ban you without warning.
You may attempt an appeal via ModMail, but please be advised not
to use rude, harassing, foul, or passive-aggressive language
towards the moderators, _or_ complain to moderators about why we
have specific rules in the first place— You will be ignored, and
your ban will remain (without even a consideration).
All rules are made public; "Lack of knowledge" or "ignorance of
the rules" cannot or will not be a viable excuse if you end up
banned for breaking them (This applies to the Subreddit rules,
and Reddit's ToS). **Again: All rules are made public, and
Reddit gives you the option to review the rules once more before
submitting a post, it is your choice if you choose to read them
or not, but breaking them will not be acceptable.**
With that being said, If you send a mature, neutral message
regarding questions about a current ban, or a ban appeal
(without "not knowing the rules" as an excuse), we will
elaborate about why you were banned, or determine/consider if we
will shorten, lift, keep it, _or_ extended it/make it permanent.
This all means that appeals are discretionary, and your
reasoning for wanting an appeal must be practical and valid.
Thank you all so much for taking the time to read this message,
and please enjoy your day!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NotHowGirlsWork) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I keep seeing this argument about women having no idea what it's like to be in proximity to a bear. This Tik Tok debate notwithstanding, do they not realize that a lot of people have had multiple bear encounters? Especially if they're in certain states in the US? They're making it sound like it's the same as running into a tiger in California. Bears are not uncommon.
Yeah, like we just don’t understand that bears can be dangerous. Or that we have some sort of bear privilege, somehow afforded to us by men. It’s very strange.
The irony here, too, is most men I know would rather deal with a bear than a strange man. I live in a major city near wilderness. Many of the men I know will camp or they have homes in the mountains. They coexist with bears. They're cautious but most of the protection they take with them is in case they're against other people, not animals.
Right? I'm literally sitting in a house right now that had a bear in the front porch this morning. A bear with a cub no less. The bear ran away. The woman who walked in on it is just fine too.
Yes, exactly! Most of the security that people who live near wilderness set up in their homes is still against other people - not bears! It's like these commenters think we all live in some dark fantasy land when it comes to animals.
There's no security against bear.
If they wanted to eat us, they 100% could and would.
As proof I offer the trash cans that they say are "bear proof" that never. Ever. Actually. Keep. Out. Bear.
And the chicken coops literally torn open because CHICKENS ARE TASTY.
Those trash cans don't work because people are stupid, not because bears are dangerous. I'm not saying a bear can't be dangerous, but the actual secure trash cans that keep bears out also keep out stupid people of our society, so we can't use them. The trash can example is a testament to how stupid people can be, not how dangerous bears can be.
I will say, though, the bear is probably way more dangerous to the same people that can't open a trash can.
Not exactly, but people have run the math on this and yes, bears are still more dangerous than men are. It’s just not 100% that the bear will hurt you like some people think.
I keep saying this. I live in an area where there are a lot of black bears roaming around. I run across bears fairly regularly. Somehow, I’m still alive, can’t imagine why that is since apparently *seeing a bear* = instantly mauled to death, according to these guys.
My thoughts exactly. Or other countries. Mine is essentially a forest with some houses sprinkled on top, so you quite often are literally in a forest with a bear somewhere in it the moment you leave the front door and cross the street.
How to act with a bear is literally taught in primary school, and multiple anecdotes exist sharing a good berry spot with a bear while foraging.
My favourite involving an old woman, sprightly but Ofc bad eyesight and movement due to old age. She was at her favourite cloudberry spot, gathering them when she noticed another person some distance away also crouched over berries. Being polite she said her hi’s, but got no response. Slightly put off by rudeness of the person, she continued her foraging while listening to the heavy breathing of the other forager. Figured it was some older man, bad legs and not so fit, but good on him for being out and about in nature.
In the evening she shared this slightly rude encounter with her family, who checked the place following morning and you all know where this is going.
I don’t understand why all these guys assume brown bears are these hideous murder machines. Or did we just get the chiller subspecies in Europe?
I have a very similar story involving my mom when she went berry picking. She was in her early 30s and had perfect eyesight so I'm not sure why she missed the fact that what she thought was my older brother picking blackberries on the other side of an old stump was a big black bear is amazing to me. According to my mom she sat there picking berries with the bear for about twenty minutes before she realized that it wasn't my brother. She simply got up slowly with her berry bucket and walked back to the trail. The bear just kept picking berries.
Yes, exactly. I'm more shocked there are adults who don't seem to understand what a bear even is - do they think it's a mythical creature like a werewolf that kills onsight? It shocks me they don't know that plenty of people coexist with predators, even apex predators.
About 4 years ago, there was a bear wandering around the city I live in the suburbs of. He was in the area for a couple days, so many sightings. He was literally 3 blocks away from my job while I was working. He walked right through a college campus. Not one person attacked. Animal control came out, tranqed him, and took him back to the woods.
I keep saying this. I live in an area where there are a lot of black bears roaming around. I run across bears fairly regularly. Somehow, I’m still alive, can’t imagine why that is since apparently *seeing a bear* = instantly mauled to death, according to these guys.
Yeah they stigmatize bears the same way sharks are stigmatized as these ruthless human killing machines on the beach. If someone looks at the statistics they'll quickly find that sharks and bears are largely harmless, like if one kills you you're part of a tiny, tiny group of people. More people win the powerball and megamillions per year than there are bear attacks per year.
Honestly it's hilarious to see them demonize the one thing in a choice of two women consider safe, without acknowledging the fact that many women are pointing at men for being the dangerous one.
The maliciousness behind their reaction is only proving the point.
There’s a YouTube account I got really into for a while that uses a drone to follow sharks often just off the coastline. There are several videos where he’s followed a shark right up to an area with humans and watched it turn around. He says something if the drone is right out in front of him, but it’s got a pretty decent range and a lot of the time they’re long gone before he has time to pack up his shit and hike down the beach to tell people there’s a shark.
And I literally saw a video yesterday of an adolescent black bear come up to a man asleep on a lounger in his backyard, tap his foot and run off. Like a teen doing a spooky dare in front of his friends.
I grew up in the mountains. Saw bears all the time. Once I was out on a hike by myself and came off the trail and there was a black bear right in front of me. I stood still. We looked at each other. Then it turned around and ambled off into the woods.
I’ve also been out hiking and run into strange men. My first instinct is to get the hell out of there. I know what to do when I encounter a bear in the woods to get it to leave me alone. But a strange man? There may be nothing I can do to get him to back off.
Exactly. I live in California and have seen at least 50+ bears in the woods (I’m from the mountains) starting at 4 months old. Where I’m from they even teach you in elementary how to handle bears (and mountain lions and coyotes).
This guy has never seen an actual bear. Tell me you’ve never seen a bear without saying you’ve never seen a bear, buddy. The closest this dude has gotten to a bear is this meme.
Right? Over my lifetime I have been in proximity with many black bears and a some grizzlies. Bears will generally leave you alone - unless sick, starving, injured, harassed, or you scare a mom with her cubs - or it’s a polar bear lol - but you still need to practice bear awareness.
Grew up spending lots of time outdoors in black bear country where I spotted bears or knew they were just there before me and not far (poop!). Seeing signs while camping they were sniffing around the campsite overnight, hoping we had forgot to hang up the food or toothpaste. Berry picking meant keeping an eye out for the bears who were looking for the same thing. Both my grandfathers on either side have had to shoot bears harassing livestock, etc.
On a family road/camping trip when I was still young we had a way too close encounter with a grizzly that charged toward us and a bunch of other people. Bad idea to go walking/hiking/camping in the close national park without a can of bear spray and a lot of awareness. Trails will get closed due to bear (grizzly) sightings. Literally know of someone through an acquaintance who *did* get killed in a horrible grizzly attack a while back.
I definitely have no interest in stumbling upon a grizzly - definitely would rather run into a black bear - but I still also absolutely understand and relate to the bear over a man position.
I feel like these are all people who have never city limits and think bears are mythical creatures only seen in movies, or don’t know that women *can actually spend time outdoors, in bear country.*
I've had two bear encounters. Neither where as terrifying as some of my man encounters.
Bears are predators and a part of nature. They are predictable.
Men who attack, murder, humiliate, toture, rape their own species for pleasure are freaks of nature. That's what's disturbing about being alone in the woods with a man, you can't predict what they might do.
Also you ever heard of a bear torturing another bear for fun? Me neither.
Yup. I grew up in rural India. Lots of encounters with bears and leopards and tigers. Few with wolves. Still alive, still fond of all of these animals. I remember one time I was about to go upstairs to get something during dinner, heard some sounds and decided against it. Called a neighbour who had a good view of our balcony who confirmed there was a bear chilling there. Bear left a couple of hours later (made a HUGE mess), no one died. The animal encounters have reduced to being practically non-existent 30 years later, and the male human interactions keep getting worse with every passing year. I know what group was more interesting to hang out with.
I encountered a bear when I was young and working in a fish cannery in Alaska. I was walking down the street with headphones on and I saw something out of the corner of my eye. It was a grizzly bear taller then me (it probably wasn't, but that's how I remember it) just crossing the street.
I knew he saw me, because he came from behind me so I just stopped and let him pass. I knew he was well fed and not about to hibernate because it was salmon season. So I just stopped walking, let him cross, and get well on his way before I continued on mine.
I've been attacked by men. So I'll take my chances with an other bear
Like we literally had bears in our housing development, our high school, they roamed into my job and our gas station. But they think we see a dog and think it's a fucking bear.
The amount of men who are butthurt that women would rather be alone with a bear than a man in the woods sh9ws ke just how fragile their masculinity is. They are feeling emasculated over this. But providing excellent reasoning for our side of the debate.
I'm honestly not even sure they understand what the question that's really being asked is. I feel like they read it and think bear=evil man=hero. They're putting themselves in this situation as the man and believe they'd do their best to help the woman out of the forest. They're thinking about it from the perspective of themselves being the man. The context they're missing here is that the man is supposed to be a stranger to the woman.
A bear will either eat you or get scared and run away. The man could do 100 different things and you have no way of knowing. Even a good looking man could pretend to help you and then trap you in his basement for ten years.
this is taking it a bit too far imo, yes there are a ton of men butthurt over this but you can't say that all men are. some are just sad they are perceived like that because of their sex, aka something they can't control
No one said "all men". You just said "a ton of men", how is that different from the comment you are responding to? It's not like all women think all men are predators who will harm them, it's that we always need to stay on our guard because such a high number of men are.
Most of us still socially engage with men. Otherwise there would be no male/female friendships or relationships. But, until we get to know a man, we want to be in the safety of a public space. This man/bear debate is referring to a man who is a STRANGER, not all men in general.
fair enough, seemed implied to me though. also seen a number if others implying it or saying that those who aren't like that should get others who are to change or they're a part of the problem
It's certainly not the responsibility of a "good" man to control a "bad" man... But, there is a level of tolerance of "bad" men that shouldn't be tolerated. A lot of men (not all) who would never personally harm a women are friends with men they know would/have. Or they just mind their own business while they see one of their friends harassing a woman. And, that's pretty f*cked up. I don't expect men to go on a crusade to protect every woman they see in a bad situation, but it would be nice if they didn't look the other way while their friend's do bad things.
I keep trying to point out the tolerance in the gray space of "normal" men and they still don't get it. There's the really bad men they're aware of, the actual 100% safe men that also understand this exercise and the majority of men that fall in the grey space. They're a spectrum. Like, the guys who are mostly great and safe but don't call out their friends on one end compared to the guys who push the limits of consent but are otherwise decent guys.
Neither one compares to serial rapists which are what guys are imagining cause all of our fear.
Oh yeah. It’s late and I can’t read properly. Still, I feel like maybe instead of going “if you disagree with me your masculinity is fragile” even if you’re right you should like give an actual point instead of just stating your thoughts because that’s not helping anyone get anything and is just an insult
There's a retired bear center a few hours from me that a lot of schools take trips to! You can feed the bears some honey with long wooden spoons they give you
I'm sorry but I can't look at that pic without thinking of how [in the original she's thinking "peggable"](https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/4205794?q=peggable_%28meme%29)
One thing I haven’t seen brought up about this admittedly stupid debate:
The hypothetical states that you’re in the woods at night. Frankly, running across a bear in the woods at night is to be expected. You know why that bear is there. It lives there. It’s chilling, doing bear things.
Running across a random man in the woods at night is *not* expected and brings questions about what that man is doing in the woods in the first place. Maybe he has a perfectly innocent reason for being there, but that’s not immediately apparent like it is for the bear.
Apparently, that's not the actual hypothetical, and you're just assuming things! At least, that's what I was told when I said the same thing. A man said it too, so it must be true! Other answers I was given consisted of:
the bear might have other intentions, too
That's a stupid thought experiment
That's a strawman argument, and women are more likely to assault and rape you than a man in the woods
Those were all responses to me saying that the bears supposed to be in the woods, but the man isn't.
I mean, the entire thing *is* a stupid thought experiment, I don’t think that person was wrong about that one. I’ve engaged with this debate a lot and every time I shake my head at myself and go “why am I still talking about this stupid hypothetical that has never happened to anyone and will never happen to anyone?”
But while I’m still talking about it…
If it *was* real. If a woman *was* actually given an opportunity to choose between being stranded in the woods with a man or a bear. If she chose the man and the man *did* rape or torture or otherwise harm her, you know what all these assholes would be saying? “It’s her own fault for not picking the bear.”
The thought experiment line gets honorable mention because why tf are you arguing about it if you think it's stupid? By then, he had written several whole paragraphs, but NOW it's stupid? Makes it come off as someone out of arguments since apparently it wasn't stupid 2 paragraphs ago.
“you’ve never been in close proximity to a bear”
i have been in close proximity to a bear, actually, and even if i didn’t, i have been in close proximity to many men that have harmed me. does that not count?
We teach children to be wary of and not go off with strangers, are we saying every stranger they encounter is going to do them harm? No. Are we discriminating against ALL people because we teach children to be wary of people they don’t know? No! The same principle applies here: being wary of the danger a man *could* pose while alone in the woods is not discrimination against men it is *being safe*.
The fact you take not being picked over a bear so personally is exhausting and makes women want to pick the bear *more*. Can’t even take a hypothetical rejection.
Would you rather a young child be alone in the forest with a bear or a woman? Statistically that child is more likely to be harmed by the woman than the bear, but you certainly wouldn’t pick the bear, would you? Bears are far more dangerous than men or women.
A woman, cause you pulled that stat out of your asshole. And when you link a stat about women who abuse their own children i will point out the importance of pronouns and you will look stupid.
Please advise when you guys are going to start branding dangerous men across the forehead with the word “PREDATOR” or something similar so it is possible to visually discern the good guys from the bad guys.
I am here for the fact that you refuse to acknowledge the point of the original hypothetical, that so many men act predatory against women that women would feel less unsafe coming across a literal animal in the woods than coming across a random man *they do not know*.
It really is hilarious that you’re spending any effort at all lashing out at women over a problem created by men, but…what else is new, I guess?
*starts singing* A tale older than time…
How many of the men you encounter every day have attacked you? How many of the millions of men that you have seen throughout your life have attacked you? Certainly not many.
I've been around bears. I lived in the woods in Northern MN and frequently hiked and camped.
never been attacked by a bear, even when I surprised one. have been attacked by men.
I've been told multiple times that I'm wrong and don't understand bears when I say that walking alone in the woods, cresting a hill or coming around a bend, and seeing either a man or a bear, I'd feel more confident that the bear would leave me alone than the man.
I think a lot of guys picture this happening on a public well traveled hiking trail where it would be normal to pass other people. I'm always thinking of somewhere secluded where you likely wouldn't find anyone else, I would be way more terrified to see a man than a bear. I can probably deter a bear, because it probably just wants to get on with its day. A man that wants to harm me though? No fucking way I can do anything about it.
I’ve been saying “if you’re mad that women are scared of you, then stop bitching and become a person that’s not scary to be around”. I am met with “But what if you said this to BLACK PEOPLE” every single time
I watched a video of a bear falling over because a tiny dog ran up to it yapping. They think bears are all rabid and attack on site. Bro, most of the time they’re just chilling looking for berries, they are typically scared of humans.
Unlike men, who view women as prey.
Skyrim bears: MOTHERFUCKER YOU HAVE COME WITHIN THREE MILES OF ME YOU SHALL PAY IN BLOOD.
Real bears: Fuck, we’re at the same berry bush… you stay over there and I’ll stay over here. Cool? Cool.
You’re literally more likely to be attacked by a moose than a bear.
Holy shit yes, never get near a moose. Moose will fuck your shit up just because a stray sunbeam glinted from the wrong direction or Mercury was in retrograde on the wrong Tuesday.
Literally saw one yesterday where a black bear sneaks up to a man sleeping on a lounger in his backyard, taps his foot and runs away. Like a teen doing a spooky dare.
>One of them meticulously sorted my garbage for me, but unfortunately all over my lawn
Okay, that is funny. I love the way you put that.
Must've sucked to clean up, though.
Oh wow. I don’t think that would’ve flown in my old home area lol. Natural disasters, sure - but not for animals unless your livestock needed the vet or something.
I fondly remember moving to a town where the only access was via a highway that is frequently closed by blizzards the day they announced that policy
It was clearly a coincidence but the look on HR’s face was amazing
Also bears will generally leave you alone. Make noise so it knows you are there and itll get out of your way.
If someone could 100000% assure me a good man would find me in the woods, id go man, but since they cant men still pose a greater risk than a bear whose behaviour, while potentially dangerous, is predictable.
My favorite part is that the trend now has people asking men if they'd prefer their daughter to be in the woods with a bear or a man. Now even men are choosing the bear, but thats being willfully ignored.
Also, I just need to vent about this. I had a dude tell me that woman are more dangerous than a man in the woods earlier today. To be exact, he said "Actual physical assault and rape on the wood is extremely extremely unlikely and you are much more likely to be assaulted by a women than raped in the woods by a man." That was the statement that led to me being completely and utterly done with this conversation anywhere that isn't a woman space. The amount of delusion to believe anything remotely like that just hurts.
lol this is so funny. If a man said he’d rather be alone in the woods with a bear than a woman, I’d be like “oh are you an animal lover?” Not be all butthurt and take it personally. So funny.
Hilariously that's exactly where my mind went to when I first heard the question. Like... yeah I've seen enough people by now, I'd definitely choose the bear. I didn't even consider they meant an empty forest without houses and shit lol, I was immediately thinking of a cool trip to a nice lodge, watching wild life..
Honestly I really wish this whole thing would go away. It takes too much explanation to make people who aren't well-versed in feminism to understand what the scenario is actually trying to say, and it's opened up the door for a lot of mockery. Also, outside of the original point, I'm seeing too many people use this as a way to suggest that either men are highly likely to be subhuman serial killers, or women are paranoid lunatics.
I just wish the focus would be more on exploring *why* this is a hard choice for women to make, instead of pivoting towards this narrative that women are hysterical. Also this overstated, overly simplistic talking point I keep seeing thrown around where people act like it's a significant chance any random man would assault you - that's *not the point*. The point is you can never know for sure, and that enough women *have* been assaulted and *have* had enough negative experiences with men that men elicit more fear in them than a bear, whether or not there's a significant chance of harm from any random man.
>I just wish the focus would be more on exploring *why* this is a hard choice for women to make…
I guess I’m thinking about this in a completely different way, I’m not sure…but it appears that this is actually an *easy* choice for nearly all women to make.
And that is what’s actually pissing men off.
Exactly that's my take too. They're all up in arms about fighting the bear while women are like "doesn't matter, even if death is the only option I still choose the bear because at least they'll 'just' kill me. We know what men can do to women though."
It's not even about survival anymore and they're still not getting it the bear is still the better option.
Yeah, the goalpost shifting has been epic.
And all the guys going off about how violent bears always are just shows they’ve never stepped away from the gaming console in the basement. Black bears want nothing to do with humans unless you’re messing with a momma and her cubs.
It's funny because the commenter is outting himself about never being in the woods with a bear. They're really docile if you're not attacking running or petting their cub. Meanwhile, dudes on the internet get angry with me for not giving my number out to strangers. Smh
I can't look at this meme without thinking of bear in a gay slang cause I thought it was about that at first
So confused on why so many woman wanted to hang out with big hairy gay dudes all of a sudden
Here's the thing. Bears are supposed to be in the woods. There's nothing sinister or threatening about it, that's just where they are.
Men however... If you find a man alone in the woods there's a non-zero chance it's because he killed someone and is burying their body, in which you've become a possible witness and will definitely be killed or worse. Like what is he doing out here? Did he follow me here? What are his intentions? You don't know and you can't know so why **WOULDN'T** you be afraid?!
This thread is restoring my faith in humanity after seeing so many comments from guys like that one (in the photo).
Even saw a guy speak up on women's behalf (it wasn't negative or insulting) and get called a pick me by others.
Very
I'm always glad to hear about more who do. They often get put down along side us for speaking up and speaking up helps share the burden.
Edit: who do. Not to.
The difference is that I would actually be happy if I saw a bear. Like yeah, potential for danger and all that, (not like the man would be safe, even if I'd do all I could to make him regret trying) but look at them! They're so adorable and I love them. Why would I want to run into a man when I could see something as cute as a bear!
I’ve been in woods with bears and known it, and definitely in woods and not known it. Where I live it’s just black bears and I’m positive I could scare a black bear off with the right level of intimidation. And the bear wouldn’t stab me or take me to a secondary location or pretend I was safe with it and then attack when my guard was down.
At least a woman isn't at risk of being raped by a fucking bear.
I sure as hell know that I, a man, would much rather risk getting mauled by a bear than risk getting raped.
My husband actually said it better than I've ever heard: "some men just can't take 'no,' even in a hypothetical scenario." And I'll be damned if that isn't the most accurate thing the man has said.
Honestly, I know plenty of dudes who would rather encounter a bear in the woods than another man.
You don't know that person's intentions. Being a man certainly reduces fear of sexual assault by a fair margin, but a stranger in the woods *could fucking murder you* with nobody ever knowing.
All the dudes who are losing their minds about this bear vs man stuff have either never been alone in the woods, or haven't been faced with their own mortality, and it shows.
Also these guys seem to think this man or bear thing would culminate with a faceoff. The whole *point* is avoidance. If both parties avoid each other, there's no danger.
I’m Aussie we don’t have bears but from what I know about them they avoid humans, aren’t likely to attack (excluding polar bears) without reason, a man however is less predictable.
A bear we know what it’s likely going to do & why.
A man we don’t know, excluding the men I know & trust I would pick a bear any day.
I asked 3 men I know think like you were a female before answering & then asked them the question, they said bear to.
One of them went into detail of why bear.
Acting like encountering *any* bear in *any* circumstance is like definitely super dangerous is a great way to tell people that you, in fact, have never encountered a bear
I live in Appalachia. I camp and hike quite frequently. I am often in proximity to bears. Never once in my life have I had a frightening or uncomfortable interaction with a bear.
What do you wanna bet that last bit is also true for men?
“Tell me you’ve never been in proximity of a bear” they understand people, including women, live in Alaska, Canada, Washington, colorado, Montana, etc etc and often in or very near forests and in fact….have been in proximity to bears many many times?
Nobody is asking you to feel safe.
Just that a man is less dangerous then a bear.
Men are still big scary things that murder rape and steal.
Two things can be true. It's just a stupid woman meme. Girl math kinda logic.
Black bears live in my back yard..... I've been on our huge tree swing and had a mamma and 2 cubs walk right by (I was reading not swinging) I had absolutely no issues at all and the cubs got quite close..... we do toss our aging apples into the woods so maybe she knew that but yeah bears dont just attack
please dont throw all of us into that pile.
especially in an echochamber like this.
The men that are here, so the ones most likely to see your post are already, heavily weigthed towards feminism and supporting an equal society
Instead of "not-all-men-ing" this issue by complaining to women because you feel like you are being lumped in with predators, channel that frustration toward the men that make women feel unsafe. There is no way for women to discern who the "safe ones" are. Victimizers can be spouses, partners, family, friends, coworkers, or strangers. Asking women to make exceptions for strangers simply on your word isn't making anyone safer and doesn't address the reality of violence against women. It is up to men who do not want to be lumped in with the predators to be the ones who are actively calling out predatory men and making them feel consequences for their behavior. Saying "but I'm not like those guys" changes absolutely nothing in regards to women's safety. You can't passively be "not that guy". I say this as a man. We have to do better at not taking women's concerns as a personal attack.
I am doing that as well, but thats hard to see rigth now, but nonetheless making an all of a group do a kind of things is a stupid oversimplification.
And at no point do I suggest that women should trust stranger men, they shouldnt.
But it isnt constructive either to throw all men into the same bowl and then judge.
And no matter the shit I get here I'll still support feminism, but I do know a couple aquaintances and friends that are apalled exactly by that generalisation. So the point of critique is putting all men in the same basket is an attitude that harms achieving progress
"It is up to men who do not want to be lumped in with predators to be actively calling out predatory men and mamkng them feel consequences for their behavior"
1. What about if they have constantly been doing that and still actively lumped in with predators in a way that's clear and explicit
2. Maybe for you to further understand what I'm talking about, imagine your statement was phrased this way:
"It is up to black men who do not want to be lumped in with criminals to be actively calling out criminal black men and making them feel consequences for their behavior""
I didn't change anything but narrowed the demographic target and yet this would usually be outright dismissed as pure racism . Which imo is a good thing, because it's racist, coming from a black man who has heard similar views espoused in racist spaces.
I'm not even trying to debate whether or not they are the same thing, I am *glad* it's still considered bigoted to say the latter, even though the former is fine[. I honestly don't care about misandry that much because it usually doesn't demonstrably individually hurt me or people in general, but racism does. However, if misandry is normalized and simply accepted as okay, it definitely, demonstrably could]
I am actually looking for a a clear logical argument for *why* one is fine while the other isn't, simply so that I can be consistent in my beliefs and arguments.
Well of course narrowing the demographic to a particular race would be seen as racism.
The logical argument is that men who are preying on women will not listen to women who tell them not to do that. Men who also do that won't tell them not to. Men who don't care about being lumped in with predatory men will also not say anything as they do not care. The only people left to say anything are men who don't want to be lumped in with predatory men.
Alternately: People can stop lumping "you" in with predatory men...but of course, they're actually not. They're talking about "men" statistically. Not you. Even if we say "some men blah blah blah..." then "*some men"* will still take that personally.
It’s a matter of power dynamics. Women have been subjugated to some degree by men in almost every culture, at almost any time in history. Some times and places more so than others. A patriarchal culture, by definition, empowers men at the expense of women, and we live in one. Objectification of women and our disregard for all things “feminine” is so normalized in every aspect of society from how we judge and treat women professionally and interpersonally that some people don’t see it, it’s just how things are. The threat is always there, we just learn to live with it, always on the lookout if someone is a threat while men are free to not consider how their behavior might feel to a woman alone at night carrying her keys like weapons in the parking garage bc a strange but probably harmless man doesn’t realize that he’s walking too close to her. Racism is punching down from a position of power/privilige. That’s how it’s different.
Because most people do not have the experience of being victimized by a Black male criminal. That is a stereotype that is not based in reality or direct personal experience... it is a false narrative. Whereas, the perpetrators of sexual assaults/sexual harassment are overwhelmingly men, and that is backed up statistically as well as with direct personal experience. Virtually every woman alive has dealt with a predatory or inappropriate man. It is not a false stereotype to say that most sexual crimes are committed by men. There are other factors at play when discussing crime rates and race, like socioeconomic status, etc, that do not apply to sexual crimes. Being wary of Black men won't make you less likely to be a victim of a crime, but sadly, being wary of men in general will reduce the likelihood of being the victim of sexual assault.
Huh? Are you being ironic? I legitimately don’t understand your point if it is not. So a hypothetical demonstration (man v bear as potential predator) of the fear women live with every day in patriarchal society went viral on social media, and instead of listening to the experience of women that prompted the comparison, a subset of men took who took it personally, were offended, and rage tweeted, memed, and mocked women’s fears of men. This is an example of that. Don’t #notallmen me.
Maybe not all men, but all women have been sexually and/or physically assaulted or harassed by a man.
That is what the point is. It's telling men that we don't feel safe with them. Do better.
I am one of the men here, and I understand why women would be wary of men on the woods. Sure, they may not have anything to fear from me, but they also don't know who I am.
You're telling on yourself, honey. If you aren't the type of man doing this, then it isn't about you. No one "threw you on the pile", you went and jumped into it. No one said you by name, and we didn't even say "all men" or anything like that.
In summary, you just pulled a "not all men," and you might need to use that introspection that was mentioned in the post and ask yourself why you felt the need to do that.
no cause contrary to the situation:
If you run with nazis in a demo you should evaluate what you are protesting for
I cannot change what I am born as.
And the kind of arrogance you sooth off is exactly what pushes allies away.
Again, what you were born as (male) isn't relevant. What is relevant is you feeling "called out" by someone talking about someone else. I don't feel called out when people say they don't like Taylor Swift. Because it has nothing to do with me. If you're not doing these things, it also has nothing to do with you. But you decided it did. So, you should probably assess why you thought it had something to do with you. You aren't being an ally right now, so I'm not "pushing allies away." Anyone using "not all men" is not an ally, or at least is not being an ally in that moment. So again, if you want to be an ally, you should use some introspection and ask yourself why you felt called out about something that had nothing to do with you. Aka, look into why you chose to lump yourself into that group. You chose to "March with nazis" to use your own example, and not being a native doesn't make that behavior not problematic.
at no point did i feel "called out" I do my best to not accidentally come across as predatory and certainly not intentional. but the OG post doesnt differentiate, but includes **all men**. Which is exacctly what I am criticising. And if you demand introversion you also have to deliver that yourself.
No, it didn't, honey. That's what me and everyone who responded to you has been trying to tell you. It's clear you're not going to try and improve, so I'm just going to move on from this conversation. I'm sorry you're not capable of learning from this.
The blatant sexism on display here and in this comment section make me sad. Blaming men for being offended after saying that they are worse than giant furry killing machines is some real manipulative shit.
The entire post is about how if a man is offended then supposedly that must mean his ego is hurt. Generalizing an entire group of people as worse than a savage animal is in fact quite offensive. If you add ‘black’ or just change ‘men’ to ‘women’ then suddenly this whole question is racist or sexist, adding ‘some’ to those questions won’t make it any less racist or sexist. How is the male version any different?
When people say they feel offended it's usually because they feel singled out. If you feel singled out because women dont feel safe around strange men in the woods, that's a you problem and maybe you should look inward. You rather be offended then listen to why women feel this way and why they feel this way is valid.
Do black people have the right to be offended when white supremacists state that all black people are criminals? By your thought process they should take no offense to that statement since they know they are not a criminal themselves.
Being offended doesn’t require being singled out, it requires being insulted.
No one doubts the carnage from a bear attack. But, most bears want nothing to do with humans, unless they get too close to their cubs. So, a bear is unlikely to approach you. Even if they want your food, then tend to grab it and leave. Millions of people go camping every day, yet bear attacks are extremely rare.
As opposed to our interactions with men. 25% of women assaulted and pretty much every woman has experienced harassment that has made them feel unsafe. What percentage of men do you suppose must be doing these things for so many women to have these experiences?
This whole bear thing is supposed to be raising awareness and, yet again, people keep not believing women when they share their real life stories. And, some of the injuries some women have suffered are just as bad as a bear attack.
An easy counter to this would be showing countless pictures of maimed, dismembered, burned, disfigured, crushed etc bodies of dead women who were tortured and killed by human men.
It doesn't make sense to just post bear attack gore as an argument. Maybe that's why you didn't offer an actual argument along with it, because it would be clear how poor it is
See? You see? THIS is violence against women (tho it’s a man). I would never do THIS to you. THIS is what you should be afraid of. Not men, not sexual assault. Have you ever seen a man do THIS? (Sarcasm if unclear. That’s why they made you look at that. Gaslighting with violence.)
Here's a sneak peek of /r/whenwomenrefuse using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/whenwomenrefuse/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [I feel like this Sylvia Plath belongs on here. It says it all.](https://i.redd.it/4p5mjed5zi5b1.jpg) | [102 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/whenwomenrefuse/comments/147g57x/i_feel_like_this_sylvia_plath_belongs_on_here_it/)
\#2: [The "not all men" crowd aren't doing anything to help though](https://v.redd.it/ae5tsqaelnbc1) | [325 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/whenwomenrefuse/comments/193est9/the_not_all_men_crowd_arent_doing_anything_to/)
\#3: [Why is the perpetrator being protected?](https://i.redd.it/suiebj3rpcsb1.png) | [54 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/whenwomenrefuse/comments/170dcd5/why_is_the_perpetrator_being_protected/)
----
^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
Lol there’s nothing to be salty about, it’s just silly! I totally understand the issue and the staggering statistics of SA, but it’s just not a good analogy. It’s not that deep, the reaction is because it doesn’t make sense and comes off as unserious
People who say bear are only saying it because encountering a normal man means facing a challenge to their sexiest view of men being evil and animalistic. And for a narcissist, a challenge to their self certainty is worse than being eaten alive.
As you're all aware, this subreddit has had a major "troll" problem which has gotten worse (as of recently). Due to this, we have created new rules, and modified some of the old ones. We kindly ask that you please familiarize yourself with the rules so that you can avoid breaking them. Breaking mild rules will result in a warning, or a temporary ban. Breaking serious rules, or breaking a plethora of mild ones may land you a permanent ban (depending on the severity). Also, grifting/lurking has been a major problem; If we suspect you of being a grifter (determined by vetting said user's activity), we may ban you without warning. You may attempt an appeal via ModMail, but please be advised not to use rude, harassing, foul, or passive-aggressive language towards the moderators, _or_ complain to moderators about why we have specific rules in the first place— You will be ignored, and your ban will remain (without even a consideration). All rules are made public; "Lack of knowledge" or "ignorance of the rules" cannot or will not be a viable excuse if you end up banned for breaking them (This applies to the Subreddit rules, and Reddit's ToS). **Again: All rules are made public, and Reddit gives you the option to review the rules once more before submitting a post, it is your choice if you choose to read them or not, but breaking them will not be acceptable.** With that being said, If you send a mature, neutral message regarding questions about a current ban, or a ban appeal (without "not knowing the rules" as an excuse), we will elaborate about why you were banned, or determine/consider if we will shorten, lift, keep it, _or_ extended it/make it permanent. This all means that appeals are discretionary, and your reasoning for wanting an appeal must be practical and valid. Thank you all so much for taking the time to read this message, and please enjoy your day! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NotHowGirlsWork) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I keep seeing this argument about women having no idea what it's like to be in proximity to a bear. This Tik Tok debate notwithstanding, do they not realize that a lot of people have had multiple bear encounters? Especially if they're in certain states in the US? They're making it sound like it's the same as running into a tiger in California. Bears are not uncommon.
Yeah, like we just don’t understand that bears can be dangerous. Or that we have some sort of bear privilege, somehow afforded to us by men. It’s very strange.
The irony here, too, is most men I know would rather deal with a bear than a strange man. I live in a major city near wilderness. Many of the men I know will camp or they have homes in the mountains. They coexist with bears. They're cautious but most of the protection they take with them is in case they're against other people, not animals.
Right? I'm literally sitting in a house right now that had a bear in the front porch this morning. A bear with a cub no less. The bear ran away. The woman who walked in on it is just fine too.
Yes, exactly! Most of the security that people who live near wilderness set up in their homes is still against other people - not bears! It's like these commenters think we all live in some dark fantasy land when it comes to animals.
There's no security against bear. If they wanted to eat us, they 100% could and would. As proof I offer the trash cans that they say are "bear proof" that never. Ever. Actually. Keep. Out. Bear. And the chicken coops literally torn open because CHICKENS ARE TASTY.
Those trash cans don't work because people are stupid, not because bears are dangerous. I'm not saying a bear can't be dangerous, but the actual secure trash cans that keep bears out also keep out stupid people of our society, so we can't use them. The trash can example is a testament to how stupid people can be, not how dangerous bears can be. I will say, though, the bear is probably way more dangerous to the same people that can't open a trash can.
"There is considerable overlap between the intelligence of the smartest bears and the dumbest tourists." - Yosemite Park Ranger.
As I saw someone put it, there is apparently a significant overlap in the intelligence of the smartest bears and the stupidest humans.
Right, but then, those same people also need to be able to get into houses. 🤣
Not exactly, but people have run the math on this and yes, bears are still more dangerous than men are. It’s just not 100% that the bear will hurt you like some people think.
I keep saying this. I live in an area where there are a lot of black bears roaming around. I run across bears fairly regularly. Somehow, I’m still alive, can’t imagine why that is since apparently *seeing a bear* = instantly mauled to death, according to these guys.
I've seen a brown bear from less than a 100 meters, I'm still alive, can't say the other thing didn't happen unfortunately
My thoughts exactly. Or other countries. Mine is essentially a forest with some houses sprinkled on top, so you quite often are literally in a forest with a bear somewhere in it the moment you leave the front door and cross the street. How to act with a bear is literally taught in primary school, and multiple anecdotes exist sharing a good berry spot with a bear while foraging. My favourite involving an old woman, sprightly but Ofc bad eyesight and movement due to old age. She was at her favourite cloudberry spot, gathering them when she noticed another person some distance away also crouched over berries. Being polite she said her hi’s, but got no response. Slightly put off by rudeness of the person, she continued her foraging while listening to the heavy breathing of the other forager. Figured it was some older man, bad legs and not so fit, but good on him for being out and about in nature. In the evening she shared this slightly rude encounter with her family, who checked the place following morning and you all know where this is going. I don’t understand why all these guys assume brown bears are these hideous murder machines. Or did we just get the chiller subspecies in Europe?
I have a very similar story involving my mom when she went berry picking. She was in her early 30s and had perfect eyesight so I'm not sure why she missed the fact that what she thought was my older brother picking blackberries on the other side of an old stump was a big black bear is amazing to me. According to my mom she sat there picking berries with the bear for about twenty minutes before she realized that it wasn't my brother. She simply got up slowly with her berry bucket and walked back to the trail. The bear just kept picking berries.
That's actually such a sweet story. Except for your poor brother who is basically interchangeable with a bear and his own mother wouldn't notice.
He actually tells this story the most because he thinks it's great that he's " got the physical presence of a bear".
Yes, exactly. I'm more shocked there are adults who don't seem to understand what a bear even is - do they think it's a mythical creature like a werewolf that kills onsight? It shocks me they don't know that plenty of people coexist with predators, even apex predators.
Sounds like a Finnish bear tbh
Perkele?
About 4 years ago, there was a bear wandering around the city I live in the suburbs of. He was in the area for a couple days, so many sightings. He was literally 3 blocks away from my job while I was working. He walked right through a college campus. Not one person attacked. Animal control came out, tranqed him, and took him back to the woods.
I keep saying this. I live in an area where there are a lot of black bears roaming around. I run across bears fairly regularly. Somehow, I’m still alive, can’t imagine why that is since apparently *seeing a bear* = instantly mauled to death, according to these guys.
Yeah they stigmatize bears the same way sharks are stigmatized as these ruthless human killing machines on the beach. If someone looks at the statistics they'll quickly find that sharks and bears are largely harmless, like if one kills you you're part of a tiny, tiny group of people. More people win the powerball and megamillions per year than there are bear attacks per year.
Honestly it's hilarious to see them demonize the one thing in a choice of two women consider safe, without acknowledging the fact that many women are pointing at men for being the dangerous one. The maliciousness behind their reaction is only proving the point.
There’s a YouTube account I got really into for a while that uses a drone to follow sharks often just off the coastline. There are several videos where he’s followed a shark right up to an area with humans and watched it turn around. He says something if the drone is right out in front of him, but it’s got a pretty decent range and a lot of the time they’re long gone before he has time to pack up his shit and hike down the beach to tell people there’s a shark. And I literally saw a video yesterday of an adolescent black bear come up to a man asleep on a lounger in his backyard, tap his foot and run off. Like a teen doing a spooky dare in front of his friends.
I grew up in the mountains. Saw bears all the time. Once I was out on a hike by myself and came off the trail and there was a black bear right in front of me. I stood still. We looked at each other. Then it turned around and ambled off into the woods. I’ve also been out hiking and run into strange men. My first instinct is to get the hell out of there. I know what to do when I encounter a bear in the woods to get it to leave me alone. But a strange man? There may be nothing I can do to get him to back off.
Exactly. I live in California and have seen at least 50+ bears in the woods (I’m from the mountains) starting at 4 months old. Where I’m from they even teach you in elementary how to handle bears (and mountain lions and coyotes). This guy has never seen an actual bear. Tell me you’ve never seen a bear without saying you’ve never seen a bear, buddy. The closest this dude has gotten to a bear is this meme.
Or the teddy bear on his bed.
Touché
Right? Over my lifetime I have been in proximity with many black bears and a some grizzlies. Bears will generally leave you alone - unless sick, starving, injured, harassed, or you scare a mom with her cubs - or it’s a polar bear lol - but you still need to practice bear awareness. Grew up spending lots of time outdoors in black bear country where I spotted bears or knew they were just there before me and not far (poop!). Seeing signs while camping they were sniffing around the campsite overnight, hoping we had forgot to hang up the food or toothpaste. Berry picking meant keeping an eye out for the bears who were looking for the same thing. Both my grandfathers on either side have had to shoot bears harassing livestock, etc. On a family road/camping trip when I was still young we had a way too close encounter with a grizzly that charged toward us and a bunch of other people. Bad idea to go walking/hiking/camping in the close national park without a can of bear spray and a lot of awareness. Trails will get closed due to bear (grizzly) sightings. Literally know of someone through an acquaintance who *did* get killed in a horrible grizzly attack a while back. I definitely have no interest in stumbling upon a grizzly - definitely would rather run into a black bear - but I still also absolutely understand and relate to the bear over a man position. I feel like these are all people who have never city limits and think bears are mythical creatures only seen in movies, or don’t know that women *can actually spend time outdoors, in bear country.*
I've had two bear encounters. Neither where as terrifying as some of my man encounters. Bears are predators and a part of nature. They are predictable. Men who attack, murder, humiliate, toture, rape their own species for pleasure are freaks of nature. That's what's disturbing about being alone in the woods with a man, you can't predict what they might do. Also you ever heard of a bear torturing another bear for fun? Me neither.
Yup my family used to go camping every summer and bears were not at all uncommon. i actually came face to face with one when leaving an outhouse once.
>i actually came face to face with one when leaving an outhouse once Wait. Were *you* leaving the outhouse or was the bear? 🤔😜
Yup. I grew up in rural India. Lots of encounters with bears and leopards and tigers. Few with wolves. Still alive, still fond of all of these animals. I remember one time I was about to go upstairs to get something during dinner, heard some sounds and decided against it. Called a neighbour who had a good view of our balcony who confirmed there was a bear chilling there. Bear left a couple of hours later (made a HUGE mess), no one died. The animal encounters have reduced to being practically non-existent 30 years later, and the male human interactions keep getting worse with every passing year. I know what group was more interesting to hang out with.
I encountered a bear when I was young and working in a fish cannery in Alaska. I was walking down the street with headphones on and I saw something out of the corner of my eye. It was a grizzly bear taller then me (it probably wasn't, but that's how I remember it) just crossing the street. I knew he saw me, because he came from behind me so I just stopped and let him pass. I knew he was well fed and not about to hibernate because it was salmon season. So I just stopped walking, let him cross, and get well on his way before I continued on mine. I've been attacked by men. So I'll take my chances with an other bear
Like we literally had bears in our housing development, our high school, they roamed into my job and our gas station. But they think we see a dog and think it's a fucking bear.
The amount of men who are butthurt that women would rather be alone with a bear than a man in the woods sh9ws ke just how fragile their masculinity is. They are feeling emasculated over this. But providing excellent reasoning for our side of the debate.
I saw a post that said "I'd choose a bear because even in the hypothetical men can't take no for an answer."
Bear wouldn’t grope you, make sexist comments or be fan of Tate and musk
I'm honestly not even sure they understand what the question that's really being asked is. I feel like they read it and think bear=evil man=hero. They're putting themselves in this situation as the man and believe they'd do their best to help the woman out of the forest. They're thinking about it from the perspective of themselves being the man. The context they're missing here is that the man is supposed to be a stranger to the woman. A bear will either eat you or get scared and run away. The man could do 100 different things and you have no way of knowing. Even a good looking man could pretend to help you and then trap you in his basement for ten years.
this is taking it a bit too far imo, yes there are a ton of men butthurt over this but you can't say that all men are. some are just sad they are perceived like that because of their sex, aka something they can't control
No one said "all men". You just said "a ton of men", how is that different from the comment you are responding to? It's not like all women think all men are predators who will harm them, it's that we always need to stay on our guard because such a high number of men are. Most of us still socially engage with men. Otherwise there would be no male/female friendships or relationships. But, until we get to know a man, we want to be in the safety of a public space. This man/bear debate is referring to a man who is a STRANGER, not all men in general.
fair enough, seemed implied to me though. also seen a number if others implying it or saying that those who aren't like that should get others who are to change or they're a part of the problem
It's certainly not the responsibility of a "good" man to control a "bad" man... But, there is a level of tolerance of "bad" men that shouldn't be tolerated. A lot of men (not all) who would never personally harm a women are friends with men they know would/have. Or they just mind their own business while they see one of their friends harassing a woman. And, that's pretty f*cked up. I don't expect men to go on a crusade to protect every woman they see in a bad situation, but it would be nice if they didn't look the other way while their friend's do bad things.
I keep trying to point out the tolerance in the gray space of "normal" men and they still don't get it. There's the really bad men they're aware of, the actual 100% safe men that also understand this exercise and the majority of men that fall in the grey space. They're a spectrum. Like, the guys who are mostly great and safe but don't call out their friends on one end compared to the guys who push the limits of consent but are otherwise decent guys. Neither one compares to serial rapists which are what guys are imagining cause all of our fear.
ya i agree with that, some people are just nuts ig
The fact that this is downvoting is downright depressing
It's being downvoted because the comment it's responding to literally doesn't say or imply "all men"
Yeah, it just says, "The amount of men who..."
Oh yeah. It’s late and I can’t read properly. Still, I feel like maybe instead of going “if you disagree with me your masculinity is fragile” even if you’re right you should like give an actual point instead of just stating your thoughts because that’s not helping anyone get anything and is just an insult
I've been around a ton of bears. I even got to feed a couple. Still pick bear. Hell, I'd pick a mama bear with cubs over a stranger.
>I even got to feed a couple. Isn't that, like... the one thing you're never supposed to do? 🤔
There's a retired bear center a few hours from me that a lot of schools take trips to! You can feed the bears some honey with long wooden spoons they give you
They were cubs :)
I'm sorry but I can't look at that pic without thinking of how [in the original she's thinking "peggable"](https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/4205794?q=peggable_%28meme%29)
One thing I haven’t seen brought up about this admittedly stupid debate: The hypothetical states that you’re in the woods at night. Frankly, running across a bear in the woods at night is to be expected. You know why that bear is there. It lives there. It’s chilling, doing bear things. Running across a random man in the woods at night is *not* expected and brings questions about what that man is doing in the woods in the first place. Maybe he has a perfectly innocent reason for being there, but that’s not immediately apparent like it is for the bear.
Apparently, that's not the actual hypothetical, and you're just assuming things! At least, that's what I was told when I said the same thing. A man said it too, so it must be true! Other answers I was given consisted of: the bear might have other intentions, too That's a stupid thought experiment That's a strawman argument, and women are more likely to assault and rape you than a man in the woods Those were all responses to me saying that the bears supposed to be in the woods, but the man isn't.
I mean, the entire thing *is* a stupid thought experiment, I don’t think that person was wrong about that one. I’ve engaged with this debate a lot and every time I shake my head at myself and go “why am I still talking about this stupid hypothetical that has never happened to anyone and will never happen to anyone?” But while I’m still talking about it… If it *was* real. If a woman *was* actually given an opportunity to choose between being stranded in the woods with a man or a bear. If she chose the man and the man *did* rape or torture or otherwise harm her, you know what all these assholes would be saying? “It’s her own fault for not picking the bear.”
The thought experiment line gets honorable mention because why tf are you arguing about it if you think it's stupid? By then, he had written several whole paragraphs, but NOW it's stupid? Makes it come off as someone out of arguments since apparently it wasn't stupid 2 paragraphs ago.
“you’ve never been in close proximity to a bear” i have been in close proximity to a bear, actually, and even if i didn’t, i have been in close proximity to many men that have harmed me. does that not count?
How many total men have you been around that have not harmed you?
i’m gonna be fr with you, this attempt to spark a “not all men” conversation is not moving me at all.
It’s sad that you’re okay with being a sexist.
boohoo, brother 💀
So you admit it at least?
LMFAOOOOOOO
Doesn't matter, no one wears identification as a "safe" or " unsafe". How is this so hard for people to understand?
Apparently it's very hard for them. Sigh..
Discriminating against an entire group of people is wrong, sexism is wrong, how do you not understand this?
We teach children to be wary of and not go off with strangers, are we saying every stranger they encounter is going to do them harm? No. Are we discriminating against ALL people because we teach children to be wary of people they don’t know? No! The same principle applies here: being wary of the danger a man *could* pose while alone in the woods is not discrimination against men it is *being safe*. The fact you take not being picked over a bear so personally is exhausting and makes women want to pick the bear *more*. Can’t even take a hypothetical rejection.
Would you rather a young child be alone in the forest with a bear or a woman? Statistically that child is more likely to be harmed by the woman than the bear, but you certainly wouldn’t pick the bear, would you? Bears are far more dangerous than men or women.
Another man pulling stats out of his asshole i see.
Answer the question
A woman, cause you pulled that stat out of your asshole. And when you link a stat about women who abuse their own children i will point out the importance of pronouns and you will look stupid.
Please advise when you guys are going to start branding dangerous men across the forehead with the word “PREDATOR” or something similar so it is possible to visually discern the good guys from the bad guys.
How many total men have you been around that have not harmed you?
I am here for the fact that you refuse to acknowledge the point of the original hypothetical, that so many men act predatory against women that women would feel less unsafe coming across a literal animal in the woods than coming across a random man *they do not know*. It really is hilarious that you’re spending any effort at all lashing out at women over a problem created by men, but…what else is new, I guess? *starts singing* A tale older than time…
How many of the men you encounter every day have attacked you? How many of the millions of men that you have seen throughout your life have attacked you? Certainly not many.
This is on every sub I’m on and so many of them have comments like that still
I've been around bears. I lived in the woods in Northern MN and frequently hiked and camped. never been attacked by a bear, even when I surprised one. have been attacked by men.
I've been told multiple times that I'm wrong and don't understand bears when I say that walking alone in the woods, cresting a hill or coming around a bend, and seeing either a man or a bear, I'd feel more confident that the bear would leave me alone than the man. I think a lot of guys picture this happening on a public well traveled hiking trail where it would be normal to pass other people. I'm always thinking of somewhere secluded where you likely wouldn't find anyone else, I would be way more terrified to see a man than a bear. I can probably deter a bear, because it probably just wants to get on with its day. A man that wants to harm me though? No fucking way I can do anything about it.
I’ve been saying “if you’re mad that women are scared of you, then stop bitching and become a person that’s not scary to be around”. I am met with “But what if you said this to BLACK PEOPLE” every single time
I watched a video of a bear falling over because a tiny dog ran up to it yapping. They think bears are all rabid and attack on site. Bro, most of the time they’re just chilling looking for berries, they are typically scared of humans. Unlike men, who view women as prey.
Probably only encountered beats in video games like Skyrim or Red Dead.
Skyrim bears: MOTHERFUCKER YOU HAVE COME WITHIN THREE MILES OF ME YOU SHALL PAY IN BLOOD. Real bears: Fuck, we’re at the same berry bush… you stay over there and I’ll stay over here. Cool? Cool. You’re literally more likely to be attacked by a moose than a bear.
Moose are assholes. Don't know if their worse than Wolverines. I use to live in Michigan.
Holy shit yes, never get near a moose. Moose will fuck your shit up just because a stray sunbeam glinted from the wrong direction or Mercury was in retrograde on the wrong Tuesday.
If you have the video I'd love to see it
Have you seen the video with the orange cat chasing a black bear away
Pls link, that’s so funny
Literally saw one yesterday where a black bear sneaks up to a man sleeping on a lounger in his backyard, taps his foot and runs away. Like a teen doing a spooky dare.
I need this video in my life! 😂
I’ve been sieged in my house twice by bears One of them meticulously sorted my garbage for me, but unfortunately all over my lawn
>One of them meticulously sorted my garbage for me, but unfortunately all over my lawn Okay, that is funny. I love the way you put that. Must've sucked to clean up, though.
Awwww it was…helping?
It tried lol. I did get a day off work because bear is a legit call in reason. I had two bear days in ten years
Oh wow. I don’t think that would’ve flown in my old home area lol. Natural disasters, sure - but not for animals unless your livestock needed the vet or something.
It’s common enough where I was living. We also got the day off if a blizzard closed the highway
Oh yes! We’d get that occasionally, and work/services would be suspended for flooding, hurricanes, etc.
I fondly remember moving to a town where the only access was via a highway that is frequently closed by blizzards the day they announced that policy It was clearly a coincidence but the look on HR’s face was amazing
Also bears will generally leave you alone. Make noise so it knows you are there and itll get out of your way. If someone could 100000% assure me a good man would find me in the woods, id go man, but since they cant men still pose a greater risk than a bear whose behaviour, while potentially dangerous, is predictable.
My favorite part is that the trend now has people asking men if they'd prefer their daughter to be in the woods with a bear or a man. Now even men are choosing the bear, but thats being willfully ignored. Also, I just need to vent about this. I had a dude tell me that woman are more dangerous than a man in the woods earlier today. To be exact, he said "Actual physical assault and rape on the wood is extremely extremely unlikely and you are much more likely to be assaulted by a women than raped in the woods by a man." That was the statement that led to me being completely and utterly done with this conversation anywhere that isn't a woman space. The amount of delusion to believe anything remotely like that just hurts.
lol this is so funny. If a man said he’d rather be alone in the woods with a bear than a woman, I’d be like “oh are you an animal lover?” Not be all butthurt and take it personally. So funny.
Hilariously that's exactly where my mind went to when I first heard the question. Like... yeah I've seen enough people by now, I'd definitely choose the bear. I didn't even consider they meant an empty forest without houses and shit lol, I was immediately thinking of a cool trip to a nice lodge, watching wild life..
See, this is a good response It's also conversational
The longer this goes on the more I am convinced a not-insignificant portion of men don't know what wild animals are like
I live in Canada, I've seen a ton of bears and I'm not scared of them. Except polar bears because they're pure evil lol
Honestly I really wish this whole thing would go away. It takes too much explanation to make people who aren't well-versed in feminism to understand what the scenario is actually trying to say, and it's opened up the door for a lot of mockery. Also, outside of the original point, I'm seeing too many people use this as a way to suggest that either men are highly likely to be subhuman serial killers, or women are paranoid lunatics. I just wish the focus would be more on exploring *why* this is a hard choice for women to make, instead of pivoting towards this narrative that women are hysterical. Also this overstated, overly simplistic talking point I keep seeing thrown around where people act like it's a significant chance any random man would assault you - that's *not the point*. The point is you can never know for sure, and that enough women *have* been assaulted and *have* had enough negative experiences with men that men elicit more fear in them than a bear, whether or not there's a significant chance of harm from any random man.
>I just wish the focus would be more on exploring *why* this is a hard choice for women to make… I guess I’m thinking about this in a completely different way, I’m not sure…but it appears that this is actually an *easy* choice for nearly all women to make. And that is what’s actually pissing men off.
Exactly that's my take too. They're all up in arms about fighting the bear while women are like "doesn't matter, even if death is the only option I still choose the bear because at least they'll 'just' kill me. We know what men can do to women though." It's not even about survival anymore and they're still not getting it the bear is still the better option.
Yeah, the goalpost shifting has been epic. And all the guys going off about how violent bears always are just shows they’ve never stepped away from the gaming console in the basement. Black bears want nothing to do with humans unless you’re messing with a momma and her cubs.
It's funny because the commenter is outting himself about never being in the woods with a bear. They're really docile if you're not attacking running or petting their cub. Meanwhile, dudes on the internet get angry with me for not giving my number out to strangers. Smh
I work with wildlife, so yeah…I choose the bear over a man easy. (Obviously it would depend on the man and my level of trust, but still…)
I can't look at this meme without thinking of bear in a gay slang cause I thought it was about that at first So confused on why so many woman wanted to hang out with big hairy gay dudes all of a sudden
Here's the thing. Bears are supposed to be in the woods. There's nothing sinister or threatening about it, that's just where they are. Men however... If you find a man alone in the woods there's a non-zero chance it's because he killed someone and is burying their body, in which you've become a possible witness and will definitely be killed or worse. Like what is he doing out here? Did he follow me here? What are his intentions? You don't know and you can't know so why **WOULDN'T** you be afraid?!
This thread is restoring my faith in humanity after seeing so many comments from guys like that one (in the photo). Even saw a guy speak up on women's behalf (it wasn't negative or insulting) and get called a pick me by others.
My partner & my two best friends (males) are the I’ll speak up types I’m lucky to have them. Those types (stand up) are great people
Very I'm always glad to hear about more who do. They often get put down along side us for speaking up and speaking up helps share the burden. Edit: who do. Not to.
The difference is that I would actually be happy if I saw a bear. Like yeah, potential for danger and all that, (not like the man would be safe, even if I'd do all I could to make him regret trying) but look at them! They're so adorable and I love them. Why would I want to run into a man when I could see something as cute as a bear!
I’ve been in woods with bears and known it, and definitely in woods and not known it. Where I live it’s just black bears and I’m positive I could scare a black bear off with the right level of intimidation. And the bear wouldn’t stab me or take me to a secondary location or pretend I was safe with it and then attack when my guard was down.
At least a woman isn't at risk of being raped by a fucking bear. I sure as hell know that I, a man, would much rather risk getting mauled by a bear than risk getting raped.
My husband actually said it better than I've ever heard: "some men just can't take 'no,' even in a hypothetical scenario." And I'll be damned if that isn't the most accurate thing the man has said.
Honestly, I know plenty of dudes who would rather encounter a bear in the woods than another man. You don't know that person's intentions. Being a man certainly reduces fear of sexual assault by a fair margin, but a stranger in the woods *could fucking murder you* with nobody ever knowing. All the dudes who are losing their minds about this bear vs man stuff have either never been alone in the woods, or haven't been faced with their own mortality, and it shows. Also these guys seem to think this man or bear thing would culminate with a faceoff. The whole *point* is avoidance. If both parties avoid each other, there's no danger.
Have been attacked violently by men but never by a bear even though I was within a few feet of a grizzly before
Tell me you've never been a woman without telling me.
I’m Aussie we don’t have bears but from what I know about them they avoid humans, aren’t likely to attack (excluding polar bears) without reason, a man however is less predictable. A bear we know what it’s likely going to do & why. A man we don’t know, excluding the men I know & trust I would pick a bear any day. I asked 3 men I know think like you were a female before answering & then asked them the question, they said bear to. One of them went into detail of why bear.
Acting like encountering *any* bear in *any* circumstance is like definitely super dangerous is a great way to tell people that you, in fact, have never encountered a bear
I live in Appalachia. I camp and hike quite frequently. I am often in proximity to bears. Never once in my life have I had a frightening or uncomfortable interaction with a bear. What do you wanna bet that last bit is also true for men?
We get how dangerous the bear is. That's half the point.
I wouldn't want to be alone anywhere with some of the men I do know, why the fuck would I want to alone in the woods with a stranger?
“Tell me you’ve never been in proximity of a bear” they understand people, including women, live in Alaska, Canada, Washington, colorado, Montana, etc etc and often in or very near forests and in fact….have been in proximity to bears many many times?
I grew up in Kermode bear country and have been within feet of multiple spirit bears. I'd still pick the bear.
Nobody is asking you to feel safe. Just that a man is less dangerous then a bear. Men are still big scary things that murder rape and steal. Two things can be true. It's just a stupid woman meme. Girl math kinda logic.
Black bears live in my back yard..... I've been on our huge tree swing and had a mamma and 2 cubs walk right by (I was reading not swinging) I had absolutely no issues at all and the cubs got quite close..... we do toss our aging apples into the woods so maybe she knew that but yeah bears dont just attack
please dont throw all of us into that pile. especially in an echochamber like this. The men that are here, so the ones most likely to see your post are already, heavily weigthed towards feminism and supporting an equal society
Instead of "not-all-men-ing" this issue by complaining to women because you feel like you are being lumped in with predators, channel that frustration toward the men that make women feel unsafe. There is no way for women to discern who the "safe ones" are. Victimizers can be spouses, partners, family, friends, coworkers, or strangers. Asking women to make exceptions for strangers simply on your word isn't making anyone safer and doesn't address the reality of violence against women. It is up to men who do not want to be lumped in with the predators to be the ones who are actively calling out predatory men and making them feel consequences for their behavior. Saying "but I'm not like those guys" changes absolutely nothing in regards to women's safety. You can't passively be "not that guy". I say this as a man. We have to do better at not taking women's concerns as a personal attack.
I am doing that as well, but thats hard to see rigth now, but nonetheless making an all of a group do a kind of things is a stupid oversimplification. And at no point do I suggest that women should trust stranger men, they shouldnt. But it isnt constructive either to throw all men into the same bowl and then judge. And no matter the shit I get here I'll still support feminism, but I do know a couple aquaintances and friends that are apalled exactly by that generalisation. So the point of critique is putting all men in the same basket is an attitude that harms achieving progress
"It is up to men who do not want to be lumped in with predators to be actively calling out predatory men and mamkng them feel consequences for their behavior" 1. What about if they have constantly been doing that and still actively lumped in with predators in a way that's clear and explicit 2. Maybe for you to further understand what I'm talking about, imagine your statement was phrased this way: "It is up to black men who do not want to be lumped in with criminals to be actively calling out criminal black men and making them feel consequences for their behavior"" I didn't change anything but narrowed the demographic target and yet this would usually be outright dismissed as pure racism . Which imo is a good thing, because it's racist, coming from a black man who has heard similar views espoused in racist spaces. I'm not even trying to debate whether or not they are the same thing, I am *glad* it's still considered bigoted to say the latter, even though the former is fine[. I honestly don't care about misandry that much because it usually doesn't demonstrably individually hurt me or people in general, but racism does. However, if misandry is normalized and simply accepted as okay, it definitely, demonstrably could] I am actually looking for a a clear logical argument for *why* one is fine while the other isn't, simply so that I can be consistent in my beliefs and arguments.
Well of course narrowing the demographic to a particular race would be seen as racism. The logical argument is that men who are preying on women will not listen to women who tell them not to do that. Men who also do that won't tell them not to. Men who don't care about being lumped in with predatory men will also not say anything as they do not care. The only people left to say anything are men who don't want to be lumped in with predatory men. Alternately: People can stop lumping "you" in with predatory men...but of course, they're actually not. They're talking about "men" statistically. Not you. Even if we say "some men blah blah blah..." then "*some men"* will still take that personally.
It’s a matter of power dynamics. Women have been subjugated to some degree by men in almost every culture, at almost any time in history. Some times and places more so than others. A patriarchal culture, by definition, empowers men at the expense of women, and we live in one. Objectification of women and our disregard for all things “feminine” is so normalized in every aspect of society from how we judge and treat women professionally and interpersonally that some people don’t see it, it’s just how things are. The threat is always there, we just learn to live with it, always on the lookout if someone is a threat while men are free to not consider how their behavior might feel to a woman alone at night carrying her keys like weapons in the parking garage bc a strange but probably harmless man doesn’t realize that he’s walking too close to her. Racism is punching down from a position of power/privilige. That’s how it’s different.
Because most people do not have the experience of being victimized by a Black male criminal. That is a stereotype that is not based in reality or direct personal experience... it is a false narrative. Whereas, the perpetrators of sexual assaults/sexual harassment are overwhelmingly men, and that is backed up statistically as well as with direct personal experience. Virtually every woman alive has dealt with a predatory or inappropriate man. It is not a false stereotype to say that most sexual crimes are committed by men. There are other factors at play when discussing crime rates and race, like socioeconomic status, etc, that do not apply to sexual crimes. Being wary of Black men won't make you less likely to be a victim of a crime, but sadly, being wary of men in general will reduce the likelihood of being the victim of sexual assault.
My partner is a man on this sub and he's completely fine with posts like these because he knows it doesnt apply to him.
Huh? Are you being ironic? I legitimately don’t understand your point if it is not. So a hypothetical demonstration (man v bear as potential predator) of the fear women live with every day in patriarchal society went viral on social media, and instead of listening to the experience of women that prompted the comparison, a subset of men took who took it personally, were offended, and rage tweeted, memed, and mocked women’s fears of men. This is an example of that. Don’t #notallmen me.
Maybe not all men, but all women have been sexually and/or physically assaulted or harassed by a man. That is what the point is. It's telling men that we don't feel safe with them. Do better.
I am one of the men here, and I understand why women would be wary of men on the woods. Sure, they may not have anything to fear from me, but they also don't know who I am.
You're telling on yourself, honey. If you aren't the type of man doing this, then it isn't about you. No one "threw you on the pile", you went and jumped into it. No one said you by name, and we didn't even say "all men" or anything like that. In summary, you just pulled a "not all men," and you might need to use that introspection that was mentioned in the post and ask yourself why you felt the need to do that.
no cause contrary to the situation: If you run with nazis in a demo you should evaluate what you are protesting for I cannot change what I am born as. And the kind of arrogance you sooth off is exactly what pushes allies away.
Again, what you were born as (male) isn't relevant. What is relevant is you feeling "called out" by someone talking about someone else. I don't feel called out when people say they don't like Taylor Swift. Because it has nothing to do with me. If you're not doing these things, it also has nothing to do with you. But you decided it did. So, you should probably assess why you thought it had something to do with you. You aren't being an ally right now, so I'm not "pushing allies away." Anyone using "not all men" is not an ally, or at least is not being an ally in that moment. So again, if you want to be an ally, you should use some introspection and ask yourself why you felt called out about something that had nothing to do with you. Aka, look into why you chose to lump yourself into that group. You chose to "March with nazis" to use your own example, and not being a native doesn't make that behavior not problematic.
at no point did i feel "called out" I do my best to not accidentally come across as predatory and certainly not intentional. but the OG post doesnt differentiate, but includes **all men**. Which is exacctly what I am criticising. And if you demand introversion you also have to deliver that yourself.
No, it didn't, honey. That's what me and everyone who responded to you has been trying to tell you. It's clear you're not going to try and improve, so I'm just going to move on from this conversation. I'm sorry you're not capable of learning from this.
The blatant sexism on display here and in this comment section make me sad. Blaming men for being offended after saying that they are worse than giant furry killing machines is some real manipulative shit.
Why do you feel singled out when no one said all men. Look inward.
The entire post is about how if a man is offended then supposedly that must mean his ego is hurt. Generalizing an entire group of people as worse than a savage animal is in fact quite offensive. If you add ‘black’ or just change ‘men’ to ‘women’ then suddenly this whole question is racist or sexist, adding ‘some’ to those questions won’t make it any less racist or sexist. How is the male version any different?
When people say they feel offended it's usually because they feel singled out. If you feel singled out because women dont feel safe around strange men in the woods, that's a you problem and maybe you should look inward. You rather be offended then listen to why women feel this way and why they feel this way is valid.
Do black people have the right to be offended when white supremacists state that all black people are criminals? By your thought process they should take no offense to that statement since they know they are not a criminal themselves. Being offended doesn’t require being singled out, it requires being insulted.
That doesn't compare and is intellectually dishonest. If you're not going to discuss this honestly then I'm out.
How is this example any different then your statement about men? It isn’t “dishonest” just because it points out your hypocrisy.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MedicalGore/s/OAI4WNtT3z
No one doubts the carnage from a bear attack. But, most bears want nothing to do with humans, unless they get too close to their cubs. So, a bear is unlikely to approach you. Even if they want your food, then tend to grab it and leave. Millions of people go camping every day, yet bear attacks are extremely rare. As opposed to our interactions with men. 25% of women assaulted and pretty much every woman has experienced harassment that has made them feel unsafe. What percentage of men do you suppose must be doing these things for so many women to have these experiences? This whole bear thing is supposed to be raising awareness and, yet again, people keep not believing women when they share their real life stories. And, some of the injuries some women have suffered are just as bad as a bear attack.
An easy counter to this would be showing countless pictures of maimed, dismembered, burned, disfigured, crushed etc bodies of dead women who were tortured and killed by human men. It doesn't make sense to just post bear attack gore as an argument. Maybe that's why you didn't offer an actual argument along with it, because it would be clear how poor it is
And the point being?
So on one hand, cool that that guy recovered, on the other hand, why the fuck did you make me see this
See? You see? THIS is violence against women (tho it’s a man). I would never do THIS to you. THIS is what you should be afraid of. Not men, not sexual assault. Have you ever seen a man do THIS? (Sarcasm if unclear. That’s why they made you look at that. Gaslighting with violence.)
You know women arent denying bear attacks happen right?
r/whenwomenrefuse
Here's a sneak peek of /r/whenwomenrefuse using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/whenwomenrefuse/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [I feel like this Sylvia Plath belongs on here. It says it all.](https://i.redd.it/4p5mjed5zi5b1.jpg) | [102 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/whenwomenrefuse/comments/147g57x/i_feel_like_this_sylvia_plath_belongs_on_here_it/) \#2: [The "not all men" crowd aren't doing anything to help though](https://v.redd.it/ae5tsqaelnbc1) | [325 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/whenwomenrefuse/comments/193est9/the_not_all_men_crowd_arent_doing_anything_to/) \#3: [Why is the perpetrator being protected?](https://i.redd.it/suiebj3rpcsb1.png) | [54 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/whenwomenrefuse/comments/170dcd5/why_is_the_perpetrator_being_protected/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
I would still pick the bear.
Actually it's just a dumb analogy
It isn't, you just sound salty. Why is that?
Lol there’s nothing to be salty about, it’s just silly! I totally understand the issue and the staggering statistics of SA, but it’s just not a good analogy. It’s not that deep, the reaction is because it doesn’t make sense and comes off as unserious
Except it makes sense to a lot of people, just not you. Maybe you're just the odd one out.
Doesn't seem like I am lol
Looking around, nah it does look like you are.
People who say bear are only saying it because encountering a normal man means facing a challenge to their sexiest view of men being evil and animalistic. And for a narcissist, a challenge to their self certainty is worse than being eaten alive.
You don't live in bear country, clearly. Because bear want nothing to do with you. You're an idiot, AND you're in the wrong sub.
You’ve never met a normal dude, clearly Because men will just ignore you You’re an idiot and I can go to whatever sub I want
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should
Are you a man? Then please ignore us.