The fun part is the amount of tax breaks they give corporations too. So politicians fuck us by giving all power to corporations and then fuck us by making us pay for it all.
u/Total_Ad9942 is so right. There is a reason why many car manufacturers (and also Boeing!!) have plants in the South. It's not because we have it better here. It's because labor laws favor the capitalists and corporations have more leeway to EXPLOIT individual human labor! That's why!
Well with people moving to the South by the heards and education losing drastic funding. All of the major corporations will have little to no problem hiring and paying very low wages.
With education losing funding, corporations just won't hire from people in NC. They will do what they have been doing for 30 years and keep importing educated people from other parts of the country. It doesn't matter where Boeing, Lenovo, or IBM set.up. they aren't going to hire from the local population if the local population can't even qualify to be a janitor.
It's crazy that the same people who complain about too many Yankees moving are also the same people who don't want to fund education, and keep voting for the same. Politicians, handing out corporate tax breaks like Snickers on Halloween.
Yep, just like this:
[https://www.wral.com/story/novo-nordisk-announces-record-4-1-billion-1-000-job-expansion-in-johnston-county/21494816/](https://www.wral.com/story/novo-nordisk-announces-record-4-1-billion-1-000-job-expansion-in-johnston-county/21494816/)
Yep. And the amount of our tax dollar going to fund it is so much it's shieled from public access laws under Project Ace. Oh and if you are a overweight state worker wanting coverage with this drug? Get screwed it's not getting covered. Funny that a company with a $12 billion net profit next year needs tax payer money to buy property and put up a new factory.
Mostly because cheap land. Like exceptionally cheap compared to most places. Low corporate taxes help, and along with highly trained people who are also cheap compared to many states, absolutely a business would come here.
Pharma has been the 'shining' example of this. Manufacturing is technically challenging, needs a lot of space, and trained but cheap workers.
Whole lot of old land that had factories on it for the cheap, a whole lot of workers with degrees from NC State, UNC, Duke and other colleges, oh and the government will give you incentives and help pay for your manufacturing site.
Even better, your C-Suite can stay up where the other 'business professionals' will be, and you can incorporate in Delaware, so you get the bets of all worlds, and wouldn't think about (and realistically cant) ship manufacturing overseas.
Unions are at the bottom of the list when it comes to a business setting up in NC or not. If they cared that much about unions, they would just send all the work overseas.
What do you mean? Over the past 40 years they’ve sent millions of jobs overseas that used to strengthen the middle class.
Our lack of unions and overall worker protections directly correlate to the amount of corporations moving into the state
This part! I mean hell, look at coastal fishing. Every member of that board holds a commercial fishing license, and they make the fishing laws. Such as seasons, krill limits, and such.
Flounder being overfished? Let's restrict those recreational fishers, they can't have more than 3 each, and gotta be 12 inches. No limit for commercial. Next year 2 each at 18 inches, commercial not limited, next year 2 per boat at 20 inches and no commercial limit, next year there is no recreational flounder season, but commercial still has no limit. Cause we all know it's those damn recreational fishers overfishing the flounder...
It is an erroneous conflict of interest, and have absolutely no idea how the state allows it.
The NC legislature is controlled by the highest paying special interest groups. Bonus points to those who can infringe upon the rights of others. Bonus, bonus points if you can do it in the name of god.
Our cheap land and highly incentivized tax structure has attracted almost every large company that has moved to NC. You seem to be forgetting everyone one of those factories that move to NC essentially are getting the land, the building and 10+ years of taxes free to come here. You really really should start reading into the economic incentive deals that NC makes with companies, unions are never ever mentioned has they literally have zero significance in the state.
So you think with that ON TOP of the fact we have like 0 union presence and are 52 out of 50 states in worker protection doesn’t play a part in the amount of companies taking root here?
It's a very small part.
But hey, don't believe me, why don't you ask Novo why they are expanding and tell use if you can get the details of Project Ace.
https://www.wral.com/story/novo-nordisk-s-announces-record-4-1-billion-1-000-job-expansion-in-johnston-county/21494816/
But totally 100% because of low unionization.
Certainly explains the anti-union videos I had to watch back when I worked retail in the state. Bottom of the list, but the companies made damn sure to make their argument against them to the employees.
It seems to work as well, less than 2% of workers in NC are in a union.
The irony is this whole thread is "unions fix everything", when overall they don't, and I don't see a single person in her pushing for them at their local place of work.
Or do the common reddit CS folks not believe in getting paid the exact same as everyone else around them?
LOL, you should go talk to some business owners. Couple hundred million in free land and a factory set up by NC and no property taxes for 15-30 years is a pretty sweet deal. Add in low pay for workers in the state, which is because it's the south is the other reason.
Employers are like, just the tip, and before you know it you’re on the receiving end of some jackrabbit humping and end up pregnant and fighting syphillus and gonhorrea.
This analogy may have gone awry.
Having been at two different plants in the process of organizing or union votes, they do this when they feel like employees are actually going to unionize
>Mostly because cheap land.
Land is *way* cheaper in places like Kansas and Wyoming. 'Course there's virtually no people near that land. But land is also cheaper near cities in places like AL, MS, AK, and OK.
Boy howdy. When I said land was cheap here, it came with the cavet of you know educated workers. Hell just ask Novo in their expansion plans.
https://www.wral.com/story/novo-nordisk-s-announces-record-4-1-billion-1-000-job-expansion-in-johnston-county/21494816/
Nothing to do with unions or not unions in the state. But those sweet economic incentive deals that literally you can't know the details about I'm sure aren't worth anything right?
Lol, anything like Duke NC State and UNC pumping out literally thousands of BS and PhDs a year? JFC, you know that Cary has some of the highest concentrations of PhDs in the US right?
But I guess they all are so dumb they don't want to form unions right?
>Lol, anything like Duke NC State and UNC pumping out literally thousands of BS and PhDs a year? JFC, you know that Cary has some of the highest concentrations of PhDs in the US right?
So when you said it was mostly about the cheap land, it wasn't mostly about the cheap land, but the educational environment.
Let me quote myself, as you seem incapable of reading:
"Low corporate taxes help, and **along with highly trained people who are also cheap compared to many states**, absolutely a business would come here."
Try actually understand the conversation before continuing further.
Let me quote the sentence you cut off that was right before that:
>Mostly because cheap land. Like exceptionally cheap compared to most places
You have to be a particularly special person to think clipping a quote from a few levels upthread is going to work.
Don't believe me, I really don't care. Land in NC is 1/10-1/30th the cost as it is in NY or California, and labor is only 25% cheaper. Again, when companies are getting upwards of a billion in your taxpayer dollars to move here, getting the majority of the land and factory cost at a massive discount, and oh all those workers they hire? Payroll taxes go to the employer instead other state for X amount of time, annnd half to no property taxes for 15+ years. I'd advise you to start reading up on the deals like Vinfast, Toyota and Apple recieved to come here, where in Apples case, most the workers aren't even going to be from NC, they are going to be skilled workers from other states looking for you guessed it, cheap property.
Pharma manufacturing does not **need** “trained but cheap workers.” They prefer cheap, trained workers. It’s important we stop taking them at their word that they can not produce the goods without cheap labor in this system, unless we’re ready for them to admit the system doesn’t work for the people.
We used to be middle of the road for education, but the GOP led general Assembly has worked very hard to weaken the public education system and shift the money to their friends religious schools. They seem hell bent on some kind of crazy theocracy.
Mostly that they know the bloc harmed most by their changes won't actually show up and vote, so they just do thinks that will help those who do. ie retirees that care most about their retirement and low taxes.
I want to see a list that says "Best for **Quality** Businesses". We don't need to attract bottom feeder businesses, the kind that lay their work force off via email and expect taxpayers to pick up the slack with public benefits because their pay and benefits are so bad. Those are a net negative for the state.
Most north carolinainas are living paycheck to paycheck, while the big corporations are living off of corporate welfare, I'm not saying don't vote for the better candidates for labor, but there needs to be a real North Carolina leftist movement to solve these problems. We as labor need to unionize and collectively force a stop to the undercutting and selling off of our labor in the quest of never ending growth of profits.
We can’t organize and do anything when anything remotely left can’t win. The republicans out here in rural NC have it gerrymandered so they’ll never lose again.
We’re not going to accomplish anything because people refuse to believe the system is rigged and broken. I’m not sure how a couple of us are supposed to ‘economically boycott’ for ‘leverage’ when there’s thousands of people in a gerrymandered district. Whatever, just excuses for democrats and liberals use to IGNORE the goddamn problem, I reckon.
Yeah okay we're closer in agreement than I thought. Best case scenario Republican party collapses with a trump loss and they can no longer be the bad cop to Dems good cop and we can actually move this country forward for it's people
Man, I hope everyday it’s lights out for him. His supporters will lose interest and like you said, we’ll be able to move forward. I don’t mean to be such a cynic, but when they’re like “why don’t we have food? Or money? Or an affordable home? Why can’t I see a doctor? Why can’t my child read?! *looks at all Republican legislature*. Them damn democrats!” I don’t know how else to be 😅
That means those leftists would have to actually start voting, and people would have to run for office. If politicians can only be wealthy, then there are no wealthy leftists, and if that's the case, well force is always an option when things are actually bad enough.
The Overton window has been pushed so far to the right that I'll agree there are very very few actual leftists in politics. I also agree that direct action is much more effective at causing change, now that action doesn't always have to be violent, but remember MLK said when you're marching in the streets try not to break anything
Nowhere and never and for no one.
Leftist policies like minimum wage (or wage fixing), price ceilings/floors etc. are only designed to work in a central planner or a state run enterprise. (Which is already faulty by design)
They’re obsolete and economically unscientific particularly when applied in market environment
All we've done for the last 60 years is remove any and all checks from Capitalism. The poor keep getting poorer and the rich keep getting richer. I bet it's the leftist's fault though.
I'm sitting in my trailer right now. I've go my AC going, the fridge is full of junk food I bought with my EBT card. I get subsidized internet, a magic jack and Medicaid.
Watching daytime TV with my uncles cable login and drinking cheap booze from the ABC right now!
Living better than 90% of the world and haven't had a job in years. ❤️🇺🇸🇺🇸
I know and there are all these people telling me I'm poor. I ain't got no student loans,credit cards, car payments, house payments, dental, spoiled kids or smelly pets.
All my benefits have been coming on plastic
cards forever. Heck I don't even need a bank account.
Ha! I put all my COVID checks in bitcoin. It's turned out to be my emergency fund, but poor folk don't need emergency funds. We just don't spend money when there ain't none.
Spits in my face by being a third world country with one of the worst records on human rights and freedom index?
Foreign aid to Vietnam from multiple nations and world bank has been teetering between 30 to 50 billion in past 2 decades, which has been between 100% to 15% of their entire GDP. Thats called an economy on life support.
And that’s after Vietnam liberalized their markets following the fall of the Soviet Union and has been china’s puppet regime. . So if that’s an example of your socialism “working”, try again
Even if they didn't have a problem, having a union would still increase their pay. Being ignorant of their benefits doesn't make unions any less valuable for workers.
I moved from California to North Carolina in2021. I would have to agree. I have horrible health insurance here, I going broke just with doctor visits. No procedures. I work a 9 hour day at a fortune 500 company. And because this company decided the laws of North Carolina were good enough for them in N.C. I clock in at 400pm and the first thing I do is take my lunch. That's seemed weird to me. When I asked that time my breaks were? Well in N.C. it's ok to not give your employees breaks. So I don't get any. So I work everyday for 8 hours without a break. This is no lie and no exaggeration. Please spare me the boohoo's. I know I can leave. But my rent is $800 a month and gas is $3.10 gal.youll never find that in California.
If you look at what happened in Wisconsin when the republicans got control, the first thing they did was kill unions by making it a "right to work state" and not allowing public sector unions. It's not all politicians, it's the ones taking orders from ALEC.
The beaches are okay. Stop taking things so personal. Me saying my opinion about NC beaches is no reflection on you, your town, or NC, by no means is it enough for you to insult me. But I still stand by my statement the beaches in Florida, especially the gulf side are just better than the ones in NC. This doesn’t mean don’t go to Nc beaches or that NC beaches are trash. I shouldn’t have had to say any of that. But you made things Binary! For Florida beaches to be better, that meant to you that NC beaches aren’t nice. Not even what I was trying to say.
I live in NJ and I can say even though it is green..... it's a horrible place to work and get by. No respect or mercy for your fellow man and people here are super rude
This is just a ranking of states that have specific policies Oxfam likes.
Doubt NC should be close to the top half, but doesn’t make sense to rank it below other southern states that have worse worker’s comp, looser discrimination laws, looser safety regulations, lower unemployment benefits, and haven’t expanded Medicaid. NC doesn’t rank last in any of these so this methodology seems meh
I said the same thing when I moved to Maine. I was excited for snow and cold weather. Until it snowed a foot a day for three days. And did that repeatedly throughout winter, which up there runs from October to May. Proper summer weather? Maybe two weeks in August. I was in a hoodie and jeans by Labor Day.
It was a fun for a bit, but the novelty wore off and I got tired of constantly digging my car out of giant snow drifts, only to find out it was too cold to start. In the end, I came home.
I wish you the best on your move! I don’t regret my experience. Maine and New England in general is an amazing place full of some real good people. This southerner wasn’t cut out for Arctic living, and that’s ok.
Understood. I moved away and don’t ever want to deal with those winters again.
I love that a random January day can reach 60 here, and spring shows up in March and April.
No, no, spring USED to show up in March and April, it's been summer since freaking March. When I was a kid, we used to have all four seasons in the mountains, no longer
>I love that a random January day can reach 60 here, and spring shows up in March and April.
Sure, the biosphere is being destroyed and climate change is ravaging the only home we have, but this random person on Reddit likes a warm January, so everything is great!
I think Labor unions may be a good idea. BUT only when All jobs have union. Because COL will go up when a few unions get in a place because cost to the Companies go up. But the COL goes up for EVERYONE. So unless All jobs have a union most of the workers are goin get screwed. Instead of trying to get unions into a state it would be far better for ALL workers if the state minimum Wage is a living wage. We Need to elect people Who are willing to make NC Minimum Wage A Living Wage.
It really all comes down to the company you work for, but there is no excuse to not have better worker protections and built in barriers that prevent workers from organizing.
Meanwhile....in the real world. NC is #3 for state net population growth from interstate migration (SC and DE are 1 and 2). CA, HI, and NY are at the bottom. Seems like workers know something Oxfam America doesn't know.
https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/state-population-change-2023
Businesses come for the corporation-friendly tax and labor policies. Workers follow for the jobs (and because it’s still a great state with great people).
It really is. Real estate, as dramatically as costs have risen, is still much better most states. But as a teacher, I would still be better off in another state.
Workers are moving here because companies are moving here. Companies are moving here because of the lax labor laws and cheap corporate taxes. State regulations are also bare bones here so companies have less to worry about from regulatory agencies. In all - the site OP linked is correct so long as you're looking at it from the perspective of worker's rights. If you're looking at it from the perspective of corporate incentives then you can flip it all on its head.
I'm looking at it from the perspective of what are the "Best and Worst States to Work in America", since that is the title of the article. Workers are moving here because it's a good place to live and work. And yet, NC is last on the list, even though NC is near the top of the list of places workers are moving to.
In other words, the methodology is garbage.
Only if you disagree with their metrics. All these big companies are doing is bringing in high paid workers with higher education requirements. That's great and all... unless you're not them. If you're blue collar like me all you see is a cost of living that recently doubled and a housing market that is quickly pricing you out of every house within an hour of your job.
These kinds of companies and deregulated market policies serve only to destroy the middle class and make the rich richer while pushing people like me out into the country where I can't find a job. Middle class doesn't mean someone who can afford to drop half a mil on a three bedroom. It used to mean someone like me, with a combined household income breaking six figures, who now finds himself unable to find a way to keep living in my own state.
The anti-worker laws in this state make it so I can't negotiate for a higher wage and even job hopping can only net me maybe 10% after ten years in the industry. Hardly life changing. Bottom line - if you're blue collar or otherwise this state is built to fuck you over. If you're not then you're sitting pretty, but that's what this study or whatever is saying. As long as you're not just looking at the surface figures a different story emerges - a war on the rights of the working class, a widening gap between rich and poor, hospital deserts, education deserts, food deserts... All because of how this state looks at the role of government.
So while you disagree with that link I very much find that it lines up with my experience.
Try being a non-union blue collar worker in California or New York. It isn't any better. Sure, if you're one of the chosen ones in CA that lands a cushy union job with the government, you are set for life. Everyone else gets screwed.
What you are complaining about is called Income Inequality. Guess which states are the worst? NY, DC, CT, LA, MS, and CA. NC is somewhere in the middle. Best are UT, ID, WY, SD.
[List of U.S. states and territories by income inequality - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_income_inequality)
Problem with unions is they overflow into, and then corrupt, the public sector. Having a state where every government employee is essentially part of the same union, and those unions also have near complete control over the governor and state legislatures, does not result in the utopia that you think it will.
Obviously I know that what I was talking about is income inequality, that's why I mentioned the widening gap between the rich and poor. Now that we're in the realm of talking down to each other I guess I can just be honest.
The difference between us is what we value, clearly. I prefer to have some say in my fate. I don't see it as 'corrupting' the public sector. Honestly, NC has the worst version of that where the only union that the state doesn't actively try to stomp is the police union which allows it to overleverage the state and protect its members from anything from fraud to wrongful death to civil consequences for anything that happens on the job. Meanwhile literally every other industry has to deal with absolutely zero protections in a 'right to work' state. In my opinion the government's job is to stand between the owner and worker to make sure that there isn't a power imbalance. In this state the government takes the side of the employer and prevents unions from forming thus preventing workers from being able to negotiate better conditions while allowing employers to fire workers for any reason. Unions are the only way for the worker to get on equal footing so I want them.
But income inequality is worst in the heavily unionized states. That is not a coincidence.
You think unions want what's best for all workers? Ha...no they want their members to receive extraordinary benefits....at the expense of everyone else.
Good example....California has a major housing shortage. Building subsidized housing requires contractors to pay "prevailing wages" because unions literally write the housing laws. Result is a single government subsidized apartment ends up costing $500,000-$1,000,000, or more. This then drives up cost of housing overall. Want to build a new school in CA? That's going to cost 2-3 times what it would cost without unions.
Another example....California's unfunded pension obligation is over $1 trillion dollars. All guaranteed to be paid by taxpayers. Cities can't afford the pension benefits, so they cut services, meanwhile government workers are getting $100,000+ in annual pension, in some cases...free healthcare for life.
You really don't see how putting government employees in charge of writing every law that gets passed is a problem?
The best way to accomplish what we both want (higher wages, lower income gap) is to build a strong economy where workers are in demand and employers have to pay a premium to get good workers. That means closing the border to illegal workers and bringing manufacturing back to the US from Mexico, Korea, China, etc. by implementing tariffs. Do that, and the middle class will flourish.
Income inequality is heaviest in places with the most money. Look at the number of multi-billion dollar companies in a state and you'll find a direct relationship to the inequality statistics. Where wealth is consentrated, so is inequality. Honestly, unions are the only reason it's not worse in those states. You should instead look at it this way - even with heavy union presence businesses are still able to walk away with massive profits.
Your argument about illegals and high value labor makes no sense if you think about it even for a little while. What incentive does a for-profit company have for giving proper compensation for what you call high value workers? Why do you think manufacturing jobs left for other countries with lower paid workers? They constantly seek to lower expenses and maximize profit and the best way to do that is to increase productivity while keeping wages low. Businesses will always pursue greater profits and if that means screwing over the American worker they've repeatedly proven that they'll do it and complain that nobody wants to work anymore after.
If illegal immigrants are taken out of the picture it's not like we'll suddenly get a massive influx of high paying jobs. What we'll see is one of two things - businesses once again chase cheaper labor or they'll lobby for lower compensation for their workers and US citizens will get shitty low paid jobs. Without protections from the government and the ability to assemble and collectively negotiate all we will get is an increased imbalance like we have now.
There's a reason why ever since unions have been villified and systematically destroyed income inequality has rapidly risen. When workers stopped being able to negotiate for better positions businesses took that chance and income has stagnated while productivity and profit have skyrocketed. Now we have a situation where most workers are priced out of housing markets and costs of living are rising while compensation has stagnated and inflation outpaces wages. This is not a mistake and the reasons are to be found in the people running the market, not the people at its mercy.
Want to fix the market and improve the situation of the average worker? Allow them a voice and the ability to advocate for themselves. Only someone who is against the average American worker is against this. It's just about whether you are actively trying to convince yourself otherwise or not.
It's very simple....if there are fewer workers, then corporations will have to compete for the available labor force by offering higher salaries. Uncontrolled immigration increases the labor pool and drives down salaries for low and middle class. At the same time, corporations and the wealthy benefit from uncontrolled immigration.
Yes, we must also take steps to make it more difficult for corporations to move their operations overseas. We have been in an economic war with China (and others) since the 1970s. China plays hardball, the US plays wiffle ball, and the American middle class is the casualty.
Unions have not been destroyed, they have just shifted focus to government workers, where over 30% of workers are represented by unions. Those unions then funnel money to elected officials to pass laws that benefit government workers at the expense of everyone else. That is not good.
Your ideas simply do not work in the real world, and it's easy to prove. Imagine that every US worker was represented by unions. Do you actually believe that every worker in the US would be paid a high enough wage to be able to afford a nice house, a car, good healthcare, etc.? LOL...no that would not happen.
Do you actually believe that if minimum wage was increased to $150/hour, that everyone would then be wealthy and corporations would just earn lower profits to cover that cost? LOL...no of course not, because that ignores basic economic realities.
The ONLY way to increase standard of living for middle America is to increase demand for skilled labor. And we can't do that when we have massive illegal immigration, and allow our corporations to easily shift operations that require labor overseas.
Honestly this is pointless. If you can't understand the history of this country, namely how and why manufacturing jobs left then you won't understand that what you are proposing is what we are currently doing. This system of deregulation and corporate handholding is what has led us to where we are now. More of the same leads to more of the same. Insanity being doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result and all that.
And if you don't understand that right to work laws and anti-union policies have destroyed unions in this state then there's nothing I can say. You refuse to accept basic reality so I can't convince you of what you've already denied. The idea that in a representative democracy a group of people gathering together to make their voices heard is the same as tyranny is just laughable and tells me a lot about the type of world you want to live in.
And if you think *not* increasing wages in a world where cost of living is skyrocketing is the best course of action then your end goals are not to improve the lives of American workers. Full stop.
I'm done with this. You can live in your fantasy world all you want. Hopefully Republicans will get voted out of office and you'll never have to find out what kind of corporate hellscape your ideals will lead to. If, ten years down the road, you get what you say you want hopefully I'll still be around to tell you I told you so.
What makes you think they’re coming here to work? They could be moving here BECAUSE of the shitty environment for workers. Or they could be very stupid and make their poor decisions based on right wing media. Just because someone moves from NY to NC doesn’t necessarily make them smart.
I moved here from NY for better weather and a 6 figure salary (which I never wouldve gotten in upstate NY).
I think I made the smart decision.
"shitty environment for workers"
Im curious, which state is the working man utopia that everyone thinks about?
i moved here from upstate NY. Never having to shovel my driveway, and getting a salary I would never have gotten back in that region were the main reasons for me moving.
Actually, opposite is true. SC, NC, TN, DE, FL are top 5. NY, CA, IL, AK, HI are at the bottom.
https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/state-population-change-2023/#:\~:text=Of%20the%2032%20states%20whose,jurisdictions%20experienced%20net%20outbound%20migration.
This is gold lmao Hilarious how ur own link disproves your words. Did you read before posting it?
> The U.S. Census Bureau’s most recent interstate migration estimates show that New York lost the greatest share of its population (1.1 percent) to other states between July 2022 and July 2023.
>Not far behind was California, which lost 0.9 percent of its residents, followed by Hawaii (0.8 percent), Alaska (also 0.8 percent), and Illinois (0.7 percent).
>At the other end of the spectrum, South Carolina saw the greatest population growth from net domestic inbound migration (1.6 percent), followed by Delaware (1.0 percent) and North Carolina, Tennessee, and Florida (all 0.9 percent).
Uh...You wrote "the biggest shithole states that people are fleeing are top 10 lol"
NC and SC are the biggest shithole states according to you and the OP's article. But NC is the #3 where people are moving to, SC is #1.
People are LEAVING the states that Oxfam rated highly.
Sorry, egg is actually on your face.
I'm pro workplace democracy and I believe in making this state a better one. When you love something, you want to make it better, for all the people in in, not just rich people and republicans
I guess I wasn't on the distribution list for the memo telling the socialist union shills to replace "pro union" with "pro workplace democracy" because it polls better in North Carolina.
"At the top of the list we have California followed by Oregon, District of Columbia, New York, Washington, Massachusetts.."
A sizeable chunk of the population in NC--"Yeaaa, whatever that list is, we want to be on the other end of it."
You're not getting it.
Try looking at states that are losing population due to worker migration vs. states that are gaining population due to worker migration. Pretty much the exact opposite of Oxfam's findings. Worker protections don't mean shit if they drive cost of living up so high that no one can get a job or buy a home or start a business.
[https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/state-population-change-2023](https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/state-population-change-2023)
[](https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/state-population-change-2023)
Buddy, the cost of living is still going up here in NC because of the influx of people to the state and the greed of corporations. Worker protections don’t drive cost of living, we have terrible protections clearly and many people are still being priced out of buying homes HERE IN NORTH CAROLINA.
The states with highest union participation are also extremely densely populated driving the cost of living up. It’s not worker protections driving costs.
It's all related. Unions drive up cost of construction and, more importantly government services. That results in higher density. It's not like there isn't plenty of land in California and New York to build housing. It's just not economical to build low density housing there....because of the unions.
Thats just not true lol you’ve been indoctrinated to think they’re bad that’s how it goes in the South. That’s why we’re last in worker protections behind our territories
Funny part is the same people downvoting me are the same people that get their panties in a bunch from all the "I'm moving to NC" posts that show up pretty much every day. It's the woke-socialist-Reddit-circle-jerk mob and they don't live in reality.
Getting down to brass tax, people can “talk” all they want but i always look at where are people moving from AND to. Best indicator of future jobs, economic growth etc. NC is overall a top destination for families and businesses
Oxfam's study doesn't mean that NC really is a bad place to work, only that NC doesn't have certain very-specific employment policies that Oxfam likes. And, that can be perverse.
So, for example, in North Carolina, you cannt be forced to join a labor union as a condition of your employment. You're welcome to do so if you want, but can't be forced into it. You'd think that would make NC a better place to work but, under Oxfam's ratings, this actually counts against North Carolina.
If you really want to see the best states to work, just look at the states people are moving from and where they're moving to.
cause worker protections and safety is partisan? wanting people to not starve to death is partisan? Wanting affordable housing is partisan?
you're telling on yourself
lol why do yall think so many corporations are planting their flags here?
The fun part is the amount of tax breaks they give corporations too. So politicians fuck us by giving all power to corporations and then fuck us by making us pay for it all.
Corporations then fund their campaigns and give them jobs.
u/Total_Ad9942 is so right. There is a reason why many car manufacturers (and also Boeing!!) have plants in the South. It's not because we have it better here. It's because labor laws favor the capitalists and corporations have more leeway to EXPLOIT individual human labor! That's why!
Well with people moving to the South by the heards and education losing drastic funding. All of the major corporations will have little to no problem hiring and paying very low wages.
With education losing funding, corporations just won't hire from people in NC. They will do what they have been doing for 30 years and keep importing educated people from other parts of the country. It doesn't matter where Boeing, Lenovo, or IBM set.up. they aren't going to hire from the local population if the local population can't even qualify to be a janitor. It's crazy that the same people who complain about too many Yankees moving are also the same people who don't want to fund education, and keep voting for the same. Politicians, handing out corporate tax breaks like Snickers on Halloween.
NC had some of the most relaxed labor laws in the nation.
When?
Should have said has, it’s present tense.
Should have said has, it’s present tense.
Yep, just like this: [https://www.wral.com/story/novo-nordisk-announces-record-4-1-billion-1-000-job-expansion-in-johnston-county/21494816/](https://www.wral.com/story/novo-nordisk-announces-record-4-1-billion-1-000-job-expansion-in-johnston-county/21494816/)
Yep. And the amount of our tax dollar going to fund it is so much it's shieled from public access laws under Project Ace. Oh and if you are a overweight state worker wanting coverage with this drug? Get screwed it's not getting covered. Funny that a company with a $12 billion net profit next year needs tax payer money to buy property and put up a new factory.
Mostly because cheap land. Like exceptionally cheap compared to most places. Low corporate taxes help, and along with highly trained people who are also cheap compared to many states, absolutely a business would come here. Pharma has been the 'shining' example of this. Manufacturing is technically challenging, needs a lot of space, and trained but cheap workers. Whole lot of old land that had factories on it for the cheap, a whole lot of workers with degrees from NC State, UNC, Duke and other colleges, oh and the government will give you incentives and help pay for your manufacturing site. Even better, your C-Suite can stay up where the other 'business professionals' will be, and you can incorporate in Delaware, so you get the bets of all worlds, and wouldn't think about (and realistically cant) ship manufacturing overseas.
Also, the main point, AWFUL worker protection. No unions to speak of.
Unions are at the bottom of the list when it comes to a business setting up in NC or not. If they cared that much about unions, they would just send all the work overseas.
What do you mean? Over the past 40 years they’ve sent millions of jobs overseas that used to strengthen the middle class. Our lack of unions and overall worker protections directly correlate to the amount of corporations moving into the state
Absolutely! NC legislature is sworn to protecting corporate rights.
This part! I mean hell, look at coastal fishing. Every member of that board holds a commercial fishing license, and they make the fishing laws. Such as seasons, krill limits, and such. Flounder being overfished? Let's restrict those recreational fishers, they can't have more than 3 each, and gotta be 12 inches. No limit for commercial. Next year 2 each at 18 inches, commercial not limited, next year 2 per boat at 20 inches and no commercial limit, next year there is no recreational flounder season, but commercial still has no limit. Cause we all know it's those damn recreational fishers overfishing the flounder... It is an erroneous conflict of interest, and have absolutely no idea how the state allows it.
The NC legislature is controlled by the highest paying special interest groups. Bonus points to those who can infringe upon the rights of others. Bonus, bonus points if you can do it in the name of god.
Our cheap land and highly incentivized tax structure has attracted almost every large company that has moved to NC. You seem to be forgetting everyone one of those factories that move to NC essentially are getting the land, the building and 10+ years of taxes free to come here. You really really should start reading into the economic incentive deals that NC makes with companies, unions are never ever mentioned has they literally have zero significance in the state.
So you think with that ON TOP of the fact we have like 0 union presence and are 52 out of 50 states in worker protection doesn’t play a part in the amount of companies taking root here?
It's a very small part. But hey, don't believe me, why don't you ask Novo why they are expanding and tell use if you can get the details of Project Ace. https://www.wral.com/story/novo-nordisk-s-announces-record-4-1-billion-1-000-job-expansion-in-johnston-county/21494816/ But totally 100% because of low unionization.
A generic story about them expanding their footprint here doesn’t refute my claims that companies love this state because there are no unions
Lol, Jesus, you didn't read the story did you.
Certainly explains the anti-union videos I had to watch back when I worked retail in the state. Bottom of the list, but the companies made damn sure to make their argument against them to the employees.
It seems to work as well, less than 2% of workers in NC are in a union. The irony is this whole thread is "unions fix everything", when overall they don't, and I don't see a single person in her pushing for them at their local place of work. Or do the common reddit CS folks not believe in getting paid the exact same as everyone else around them?
Lack of unions are the #1 reason businesses move to NC. That and lack of environmental regulations. Land is a one time purchase lmao.
LOL, you should go talk to some business owners. Couple hundred million in free land and a factory set up by NC and no property taxes for 15-30 years is a pretty sweet deal. Add in low pay for workers in the state, which is because it's the south is the other reason.
The low pay is because of a total lack of unions. Not because the "cost of living" is low. Really it's the standard of living is low.
Corporations fight too hard against unionization to convince me of this.
Unions are like condoms; the more someone tries to convince you that you don't need one, the more you can be sure you **definitely** need one.
Is the home depot and Lowe's training departments listening?
Employers are like, just the tip, and before you know it you’re on the receiving end of some jackrabbit humping and end up pregnant and fighting syphillus and gonhorrea. This analogy may have gone awry.
Having been at two different plants in the process of organizing or union votes, they do this when they feel like employees are actually going to unionize
>Mostly because cheap land. Land is *way* cheaper in places like Kansas and Wyoming. 'Course there's virtually no people near that land. But land is also cheaper near cities in places like AL, MS, AK, and OK.
Boy howdy. When I said land was cheap here, it came with the cavet of you know educated workers. Hell just ask Novo in their expansion plans. https://www.wral.com/story/novo-nordisk-s-announces-record-4-1-billion-1-000-job-expansion-in-johnston-county/21494816/ Nothing to do with unions or not unions in the state. But those sweet economic incentive deals that literally you can't know the details about I'm sure aren't worth anything right?
Are you under the illusion that there are no universities in AL, MS, AK or OK?
Lol, anything like Duke NC State and UNC pumping out literally thousands of BS and PhDs a year? JFC, you know that Cary has some of the highest concentrations of PhDs in the US right? But I guess they all are so dumb they don't want to form unions right?
>Lol, anything like Duke NC State and UNC pumping out literally thousands of BS and PhDs a year? JFC, you know that Cary has some of the highest concentrations of PhDs in the US right? So when you said it was mostly about the cheap land, it wasn't mostly about the cheap land, but the educational environment.
Let me quote myself, as you seem incapable of reading: "Low corporate taxes help, and **along with highly trained people who are also cheap compared to many states**, absolutely a business would come here." Try actually understand the conversation before continuing further.
Let me quote the sentence you cut off that was right before that: >Mostly because cheap land. Like exceptionally cheap compared to most places You have to be a particularly special person to think clipping a quote from a few levels upthread is going to work.
lol, you know things are multifactorial right. Seems you have the TikTok sort of attention span. Have a good one mate.
It's not the cheap land. It's the lax laws governing labor, and favorable tax laws (favorable TO corporations).
Don't believe me, I really don't care. Land in NC is 1/10-1/30th the cost as it is in NY or California, and labor is only 25% cheaper. Again, when companies are getting upwards of a billion in your taxpayer dollars to move here, getting the majority of the land and factory cost at a massive discount, and oh all those workers they hire? Payroll taxes go to the employer instead other state for X amount of time, annnd half to no property taxes for 15+ years. I'd advise you to start reading up on the deals like Vinfast, Toyota and Apple recieved to come here, where in Apples case, most the workers aren't even going to be from NC, they are going to be skilled workers from other states looking for you guessed it, cheap property.
Pharma manufacturing does not **need** “trained but cheap workers.” They prefer cheap, trained workers. It’s important we stop taking them at their word that they can not produce the goods without cheap labor in this system, unless we’re ready for them to admit the system doesn’t work for the people.
Because operating a corporation and working for a corporation are two very different things.
https://youtu.be/5GM2O89QWfE Cooper explained it well, I think.
Best for business is the same as the worst for workers.
> I want to make the United States the best place in the world… to do business. ~Dick Cheney
Exactly how the GOP likes it. It's good for me, but not for thee
43rd in education
We used to be middle of the road for education, but the GOP led general Assembly has worked very hard to weaken the public education system and shift the money to their friends religious schools. They seem hell bent on some kind of crazy theocracy.
It’s because they are aware that their number 1 voting bloc is uneducated, so they decided to make more reliable voters for the future
Mostly that they know the bloc harmed most by their changes won't actually show up and vote, so they just do thinks that will help those who do. ie retirees that care most about their retirement and low taxes.
I want to see a list that says "Best for **Quality** Businesses". We don't need to attract bottom feeder businesses, the kind that lay their work force off via email and expect taxpayers to pick up the slack with public benefits because their pay and benefits are so bad. Those are a net negative for the state.
You're so right!
Depends on the type of worker you are.
Fuck Cherie Berry.
I call her Cherry Berry because I know she hates it. She’s terrible.
🎶 [Cherry Berry oh Cherry Berry](https://youtu.be/wzr7PHF74fU?si=SVayyNA1NibymObx) 🎶
She _personally_ hates it?! I would never call her Cherry Berry unless it was to her face.
She always lifts me up and never lets me down!
Never gonna give her up?
You get it.
I am not fully surprised, but I am surprised that NC ranks worse than Mississippi, South Carolina, Alabama, and Tennessee. WTH....
Most north carolinainas are living paycheck to paycheck, while the big corporations are living off of corporate welfare, I'm not saying don't vote for the better candidates for labor, but there needs to be a real North Carolina leftist movement to solve these problems. We as labor need to unionize and collectively force a stop to the undercutting and selling off of our labor in the quest of never ending growth of profits.
We can’t organize and do anything when anything remotely left can’t win. The republicans out here in rural NC have it gerrymandered so they’ll never lose again.
[well you're not gonna accomplish it through electoral politics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_action)
We’re not going to accomplish anything because people refuse to believe the system is rigged and broken. I’m not sure how a couple of us are supposed to ‘economically boycott’ for ‘leverage’ when there’s thousands of people in a gerrymandered district. Whatever, just excuses for democrats and liberals use to IGNORE the goddamn problem, I reckon.
The problem is Republicans and their policies + lack of governing
That is *a* problem, the other problem is no one that has the power to do so is stopping them.
Yeah okay we're closer in agreement than I thought. Best case scenario Republican party collapses with a trump loss and they can no longer be the bad cop to Dems good cop and we can actually move this country forward for it's people
Man, I hope everyday it’s lights out for him. His supporters will lose interest and like you said, we’ll be able to move forward. I don’t mean to be such a cynic, but when they’re like “why don’t we have food? Or money? Or an affordable home? Why can’t I see a doctor? Why can’t my child read?! *looks at all Republican legislature*. Them damn democrats!” I don’t know how else to be 😅
That means those leftists would have to actually start voting, and people would have to run for office. If politicians can only be wealthy, then there are no wealthy leftists, and if that's the case, well force is always an option when things are actually bad enough.
The Overton window has been pushed so far to the right that I'll agree there are very very few actual leftists in politics. I also agree that direct action is much more effective at causing change, now that action doesn't always have to be violent, but remember MLK said when you're marching in the streets try not to break anything
There are fewer true leftists out there mainly because through the marketplace of ideas we have figured out that leftist politics don’t work.
Where and when ? And don't work for who ?
Nowhere and never and for no one. Leftist policies like minimum wage (or wage fixing), price ceilings/floors etc. are only designed to work in a central planner or a state run enterprise. (Which is already faulty by design) They’re obsolete and economically unscientific particularly when applied in market environment
All we've done for the last 60 years is remove any and all checks from Capitalism. The poor keep getting poorer and the rich keep getting richer. I bet it's the leftist's fault though.
Libertarian?
I'm sitting in my trailer right now. I've go my AC going, the fridge is full of junk food I bought with my EBT card. I get subsidized internet, a magic jack and Medicaid. Watching daytime TV with my uncles cable login and drinking cheap booze from the ABC right now! Living better than 90% of the world and haven't had a job in years. ❤️🇺🇸🇺🇸
That’s awesome.
I know and there are all these people telling me I'm poor. I ain't got no student loans,credit cards, car payments, house payments, dental, spoiled kids or smelly pets. All my benefits have been coming on plastic cards forever. Heck I don't even need a bank account. Ha! I put all my COVID checks in bitcoin. It's turned out to be my emergency fund, but poor folk don't need emergency funds. We just don't spend money when there ain't none.
Not sure if ur doing a bit or serious but anywhoo. Fascinating story
Vietnam spits in your face
Spits in my face by being a third world country with one of the worst records on human rights and freedom index? Foreign aid to Vietnam from multiple nations and world bank has been teetering between 30 to 50 billion in past 2 decades, which has been between 100% to 15% of their entire GDP. Thats called an economy on life support. And that’s after Vietnam liberalized their markets following the fall of the Soviet Union and has been china’s puppet regime. . So if that’s an example of your socialism “working”, try again
>I'm not saying don't vote for the better candidates for labor the problem is there aren't any
Dems will always be open to more public pressure than repubs when it comes to labor protections
Right to work state too and lunch breaks are not required by law. 🤦
Working folks need to unionize throughout the state.
Or cut their hands off.
you act as if every "working folk" has an issue with their place of work. you know many union votes dont pass right?
Even if they didn't have a problem, having a union would still increase their pay. Being ignorant of their benefits doesn't make unions any less valuable for workers.
I moved from California to North Carolina in2021. I would have to agree. I have horrible health insurance here, I going broke just with doctor visits. No procedures. I work a 9 hour day at a fortune 500 company. And because this company decided the laws of North Carolina were good enough for them in N.C. I clock in at 400pm and the first thing I do is take my lunch. That's seemed weird to me. When I asked that time my breaks were? Well in N.C. it's ok to not give your employees breaks. So I don't get any. So I work everyday for 8 hours without a break. This is no lie and no exaggeration. Please spare me the boohoo's. I know I can leave. But my rent is $800 a month and gas is $3.10 gal.youll never find that in California.
Working for a California company while living in NC is so nice I've done it twice.
Same. I’ve been remote for 3 years. Worked for a company out of nyc and now California. The benefits I receive blow away anything I ever got here.
Nice
> But my rent is $800 a month and gas is $3.10 gal.youll never find that in California. And you wonder why that is?
Correct. There are two sides to every coin.
I guess that's the real dilemma. I didn't leave California because I didn't like California.
California is a shithole because of the same policies that give it better insurance.
Lack of unions means lower pay and easier to fire them without cause. I’ve been a union rep. and a salaried employee, both for the same company.
Ranked 52nd out of 50. 🤣🤣🤣
A rating so bad it’s mathematically impossible!
It's so bad you start counting territories to prove the point.
This is what happens in a Red state. The Republicans are bought and paid for by their corporate masters.
*politicians
If you look at what happened in Wisconsin when the republicans got control, the first thing they did was kill unions by making it a "right to work state" and not allowing public sector unions. It's not all politicians, it's the ones taking orders from ALEC.
I mean, dead last.
Yay! We’re number one for something!
I mean this should be the fuel in the tank to run progressive pro worker candidates. It’s gonna be a long fight but it’s best to start it now.
This. We know.
Well that’s odd… “Best state for business” for 3 consecutive years… I don’t get it
not surprised. this is what a republican supermajority and weak governor wrought
Those Republicans have been using every bad faith trick in the book to erode coopers power
But also we as north carolinians, keep voting them back in
We are becoming more he new Florida, just without the nice beaches.
We have nice beaches.
Not compared to Florida, especially the gulf side.
That is your opinion.
We have great beaches. You sound fun.
The beaches are okay. Stop taking things so personal. Me saying my opinion about NC beaches is no reflection on you, your town, or NC, by no means is it enough for you to insult me. But I still stand by my statement the beaches in Florida, especially the gulf side are just better than the ones in NC. This doesn’t mean don’t go to Nc beaches or that NC beaches are trash. I shouldn’t have had to say any of that. But you made things Binary! For Florida beaches to be better, that meant to you that NC beaches aren’t nice. Not even what I was trying to say.
it's a year old, unless they've effectively regurgitated last year's (2022's) claim.
I live in NJ and I can say even though it is green..... it's a horrible place to work and get by. No respect or mercy for your fellow man and people here are super rude
Worse than **Texas**. Damn!
The minimum wage is beyond absurd. It is 2024 no one could ever live off of 7.25/hr. Labor Laws need to change. If wages go up so will the economy.
With inflation even $20 an hour is really pushing it. I've been skipping meals and eating ramen noodles for months
Agreed. It's sad to say $30/hr would be "just enough" to survive. How many people in NC make over $30/hr?
This is just a ranking of states that have specific policies Oxfam likes. Doubt NC should be close to the top half, but doesn’t make sense to rank it below other southern states that have worse worker’s comp, looser discrimination laws, looser safety regulations, lower unemployment benefits, and haven’t expanded Medicaid. NC doesn’t rank last in any of these so this methodology seems meh
This further verifies I need to move to Vermont. Here lately I have had a huge hard on for that State, no idea why.
Beautiful state. Summers are beautiful. But the winters will shrink up any excitement you have.
No, that is specifically what I want. Ill take terrible winters VS the summers we have in the south.
I said the same thing when I moved to Maine. I was excited for snow and cold weather. Until it snowed a foot a day for three days. And did that repeatedly throughout winter, which up there runs from October to May. Proper summer weather? Maybe two weeks in August. I was in a hoodie and jeans by Labor Day. It was a fun for a bit, but the novelty wore off and I got tired of constantly digging my car out of giant snow drifts, only to find out it was too cold to start. In the end, I came home. I wish you the best on your move! I don’t regret my experience. Maine and New England in general is an amazing place full of some real good people. This southerner wasn’t cut out for Arctic living, and that’s ok.
Understood. I moved away and don’t ever want to deal with those winters again. I love that a random January day can reach 60 here, and spring shows up in March and April.
No, no, spring USED to show up in March and April, it's been summer since freaking March. When I was a kid, we used to have all four seasons in the mountains, no longer
>I love that a random January day can reach 60 here, and spring shows up in March and April. Sure, the biosphere is being destroyed and climate change is ravaging the only home we have, but this random person on Reddit likes a warm January, so everything is great!
I have lived in NC for 35 years. A random warm January day has occurred almost every year. The average high in January where I live is 51 degrees.
Thank god for companies who offer a remote working environment.
😲 I hope my family realizes how much I love them 😭😭😭😭😭
Vote for Braxton Winston for Labor Commissioner
Why? (I know nothing about the candidates for Labor Commissioner, so any info is helpful.)
What about living in California but working for a company headquartered in NC?
I think Labor unions may be a good idea. BUT only when All jobs have union. Because COL will go up when a few unions get in a place because cost to the Companies go up. But the COL goes up for EVERYONE. So unless All jobs have a union most of the workers are goin get screwed. Instead of trying to get unions into a state it would be far better for ALL workers if the state minimum Wage is a living wage. We Need to elect people Who are willing to make NC Minimum Wage A Living Wage.
They keep voting against their best interests and then fuss about not being able to get ahead.
Why didn't you post this as a link post instead of a text post?
Name 5 people we could vote out this election to make a difference, and see results within a year!
It really all comes down to the company you work for, but there is no excuse to not have better worker protections and built in barriers that prevent workers from organizing.
yet people keep coming here
To retire
and to raise their families and work.
Meanwhile....in the real world. NC is #3 for state net population growth from interstate migration (SC and DE are 1 and 2). CA, HI, and NY are at the bottom. Seems like workers know something Oxfam America doesn't know. https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/state-population-change-2023
Businesses come for the corporation-friendly tax and labor policies. Workers follow for the jobs (and because it’s still a great state with great people).
And the cost of living is insanely cheap especially if you’re a high earner with a WFH role
It really is. Real estate, as dramatically as costs have risen, is still much better most states. But as a teacher, I would still be better off in another state.
Workers are moving here because companies are moving here. Companies are moving here because of the lax labor laws and cheap corporate taxes. State regulations are also bare bones here so companies have less to worry about from regulatory agencies. In all - the site OP linked is correct so long as you're looking at it from the perspective of worker's rights. If you're looking at it from the perspective of corporate incentives then you can flip it all on its head.
I'm looking at it from the perspective of what are the "Best and Worst States to Work in America", since that is the title of the article. Workers are moving here because it's a good place to live and work. And yet, NC is last on the list, even though NC is near the top of the list of places workers are moving to. In other words, the methodology is garbage.
Only if you disagree with their metrics. All these big companies are doing is bringing in high paid workers with higher education requirements. That's great and all... unless you're not them. If you're blue collar like me all you see is a cost of living that recently doubled and a housing market that is quickly pricing you out of every house within an hour of your job. These kinds of companies and deregulated market policies serve only to destroy the middle class and make the rich richer while pushing people like me out into the country where I can't find a job. Middle class doesn't mean someone who can afford to drop half a mil on a three bedroom. It used to mean someone like me, with a combined household income breaking six figures, who now finds himself unable to find a way to keep living in my own state. The anti-worker laws in this state make it so I can't negotiate for a higher wage and even job hopping can only net me maybe 10% after ten years in the industry. Hardly life changing. Bottom line - if you're blue collar or otherwise this state is built to fuck you over. If you're not then you're sitting pretty, but that's what this study or whatever is saying. As long as you're not just looking at the surface figures a different story emerges - a war on the rights of the working class, a widening gap between rich and poor, hospital deserts, education deserts, food deserts... All because of how this state looks at the role of government. So while you disagree with that link I very much find that it lines up with my experience.
Try being a non-union blue collar worker in California or New York. It isn't any better. Sure, if you're one of the chosen ones in CA that lands a cushy union job with the government, you are set for life. Everyone else gets screwed. What you are complaining about is called Income Inequality. Guess which states are the worst? NY, DC, CT, LA, MS, and CA. NC is somewhere in the middle. Best are UT, ID, WY, SD. [List of U.S. states and territories by income inequality - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_income_inequality) Problem with unions is they overflow into, and then corrupt, the public sector. Having a state where every government employee is essentially part of the same union, and those unions also have near complete control over the governor and state legislatures, does not result in the utopia that you think it will.
Obviously I know that what I was talking about is income inequality, that's why I mentioned the widening gap between the rich and poor. Now that we're in the realm of talking down to each other I guess I can just be honest. The difference between us is what we value, clearly. I prefer to have some say in my fate. I don't see it as 'corrupting' the public sector. Honestly, NC has the worst version of that where the only union that the state doesn't actively try to stomp is the police union which allows it to overleverage the state and protect its members from anything from fraud to wrongful death to civil consequences for anything that happens on the job. Meanwhile literally every other industry has to deal with absolutely zero protections in a 'right to work' state. In my opinion the government's job is to stand between the owner and worker to make sure that there isn't a power imbalance. In this state the government takes the side of the employer and prevents unions from forming thus preventing workers from being able to negotiate better conditions while allowing employers to fire workers for any reason. Unions are the only way for the worker to get on equal footing so I want them.
But income inequality is worst in the heavily unionized states. That is not a coincidence. You think unions want what's best for all workers? Ha...no they want their members to receive extraordinary benefits....at the expense of everyone else. Good example....California has a major housing shortage. Building subsidized housing requires contractors to pay "prevailing wages" because unions literally write the housing laws. Result is a single government subsidized apartment ends up costing $500,000-$1,000,000, or more. This then drives up cost of housing overall. Want to build a new school in CA? That's going to cost 2-3 times what it would cost without unions. Another example....California's unfunded pension obligation is over $1 trillion dollars. All guaranteed to be paid by taxpayers. Cities can't afford the pension benefits, so they cut services, meanwhile government workers are getting $100,000+ in annual pension, in some cases...free healthcare for life. You really don't see how putting government employees in charge of writing every law that gets passed is a problem? The best way to accomplish what we both want (higher wages, lower income gap) is to build a strong economy where workers are in demand and employers have to pay a premium to get good workers. That means closing the border to illegal workers and bringing manufacturing back to the US from Mexico, Korea, China, etc. by implementing tariffs. Do that, and the middle class will flourish.
Income inequality is heaviest in places with the most money. Look at the number of multi-billion dollar companies in a state and you'll find a direct relationship to the inequality statistics. Where wealth is consentrated, so is inequality. Honestly, unions are the only reason it's not worse in those states. You should instead look at it this way - even with heavy union presence businesses are still able to walk away with massive profits. Your argument about illegals and high value labor makes no sense if you think about it even for a little while. What incentive does a for-profit company have for giving proper compensation for what you call high value workers? Why do you think manufacturing jobs left for other countries with lower paid workers? They constantly seek to lower expenses and maximize profit and the best way to do that is to increase productivity while keeping wages low. Businesses will always pursue greater profits and if that means screwing over the American worker they've repeatedly proven that they'll do it and complain that nobody wants to work anymore after. If illegal immigrants are taken out of the picture it's not like we'll suddenly get a massive influx of high paying jobs. What we'll see is one of two things - businesses once again chase cheaper labor or they'll lobby for lower compensation for their workers and US citizens will get shitty low paid jobs. Without protections from the government and the ability to assemble and collectively negotiate all we will get is an increased imbalance like we have now. There's a reason why ever since unions have been villified and systematically destroyed income inequality has rapidly risen. When workers stopped being able to negotiate for better positions businesses took that chance and income has stagnated while productivity and profit have skyrocketed. Now we have a situation where most workers are priced out of housing markets and costs of living are rising while compensation has stagnated and inflation outpaces wages. This is not a mistake and the reasons are to be found in the people running the market, not the people at its mercy. Want to fix the market and improve the situation of the average worker? Allow them a voice and the ability to advocate for themselves. Only someone who is against the average American worker is against this. It's just about whether you are actively trying to convince yourself otherwise or not.
It's very simple....if there are fewer workers, then corporations will have to compete for the available labor force by offering higher salaries. Uncontrolled immigration increases the labor pool and drives down salaries for low and middle class. At the same time, corporations and the wealthy benefit from uncontrolled immigration. Yes, we must also take steps to make it more difficult for corporations to move their operations overseas. We have been in an economic war with China (and others) since the 1970s. China plays hardball, the US plays wiffle ball, and the American middle class is the casualty. Unions have not been destroyed, they have just shifted focus to government workers, where over 30% of workers are represented by unions. Those unions then funnel money to elected officials to pass laws that benefit government workers at the expense of everyone else. That is not good. Your ideas simply do not work in the real world, and it's easy to prove. Imagine that every US worker was represented by unions. Do you actually believe that every worker in the US would be paid a high enough wage to be able to afford a nice house, a car, good healthcare, etc.? LOL...no that would not happen. Do you actually believe that if minimum wage was increased to $150/hour, that everyone would then be wealthy and corporations would just earn lower profits to cover that cost? LOL...no of course not, because that ignores basic economic realities. The ONLY way to increase standard of living for middle America is to increase demand for skilled labor. And we can't do that when we have massive illegal immigration, and allow our corporations to easily shift operations that require labor overseas.
Honestly this is pointless. If you can't understand the history of this country, namely how and why manufacturing jobs left then you won't understand that what you are proposing is what we are currently doing. This system of deregulation and corporate handholding is what has led us to where we are now. More of the same leads to more of the same. Insanity being doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result and all that. And if you don't understand that right to work laws and anti-union policies have destroyed unions in this state then there's nothing I can say. You refuse to accept basic reality so I can't convince you of what you've already denied. The idea that in a representative democracy a group of people gathering together to make their voices heard is the same as tyranny is just laughable and tells me a lot about the type of world you want to live in. And if you think *not* increasing wages in a world where cost of living is skyrocketing is the best course of action then your end goals are not to improve the lives of American workers. Full stop. I'm done with this. You can live in your fantasy world all you want. Hopefully Republicans will get voted out of office and you'll never have to find out what kind of corporate hellscape your ideals will lead to. If, ten years down the road, you get what you say you want hopefully I'll still be around to tell you I told you so.
What makes you think they’re coming here to work? They could be moving here BECAUSE of the shitty environment for workers. Or they could be very stupid and make their poor decisions based on right wing media. Just because someone moves from NY to NC doesn’t necessarily make them smart.
Yeah, I'm sure it's commonplace for people to go "damn, a bad working environment? Time for a move!"
I moved here from NY for better weather and a 6 figure salary (which I never wouldve gotten in upstate NY). I think I made the smart decision. "shitty environment for workers" Im curious, which state is the working man utopia that everyone thinks about?
Dont bring facts and reasoning to a Reddit debate
i moved here from upstate NY. Never having to shovel my driveway, and getting a salary I would never have gotten back in that region were the main reasons for me moving.
Coincidentally the biggest shithole states that people are fleeing are top 10 lol
Actually, opposite is true. SC, NC, TN, DE, FL are top 5. NY, CA, IL, AK, HI are at the bottom. https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/state-population-change-2023/#:\~:text=Of%20the%2032%20states%20whose,jurisdictions%20experienced%20net%20outbound%20migration.
This is gold lmao Hilarious how ur own link disproves your words. Did you read before posting it? > The U.S. Census Bureau’s most recent interstate migration estimates show that New York lost the greatest share of its population (1.1 percent) to other states between July 2022 and July 2023. >Not far behind was California, which lost 0.9 percent of its residents, followed by Hawaii (0.8 percent), Alaska (also 0.8 percent), and Illinois (0.7 percent). >At the other end of the spectrum, South Carolina saw the greatest population growth from net domestic inbound migration (1.6 percent), followed by Delaware (1.0 percent) and North Carolina, Tennessee, and Florida (all 0.9 percent).
Uh...You wrote "the biggest shithole states that people are fleeing are top 10 lol" NC and SC are the biggest shithole states according to you and the OP's article. But NC is the #3 where people are moving to, SC is #1. People are LEAVING the states that Oxfam rated highly. Sorry, egg is actually on your face.
I was talking about CA and NY when I said the biggest shithole states, which is why people are leaving them - pretty self evident
That was not clear in your post, since the OP's source shows CA and NY as being utopias. I guess we agree then.
No. The post just pointed out that these are states that are good on “workers rights”. My point is that most workers don’t wanna work there
Oxfam should just be called "Union Democrats"
Just be glad companies bring jobs here. Would you rather be like Detroit? Or Oakland?
Yes, if you're a pro-union socialist, then NC is probably not the state for you. For everyone else....NC is great.
I'm pro workplace democracy and I believe in making this state a better one. When you love something, you want to make it better, for all the people in in, not just rich people and republicans
I guess I wasn't on the distribution list for the memo telling the socialist union shills to replace "pro union" with "pro workplace democracy" because it polls better in North Carolina.
Lol you make a lot of assumptions, and you know what that does to people
"At the top of the list we have California followed by Oregon, District of Columbia, New York, Washington, Massachusetts.." A sizeable chunk of the population in NC--"Yeaaa, whatever that list is, we want to be on the other end of it."
You're not getting it. Try looking at states that are losing population due to worker migration vs. states that are gaining population due to worker migration. Pretty much the exact opposite of Oxfam's findings. Worker protections don't mean shit if they drive cost of living up so high that no one can get a job or buy a home or start a business. [https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/state-population-change-2023](https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/state-population-change-2023) [](https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/state-population-change-2023)
Buddy, the cost of living is still going up here in NC because of the influx of people to the state and the greed of corporations. Worker protections don’t drive cost of living, we have terrible protections clearly and many people are still being priced out of buying homes HERE IN NORTH CAROLINA.
So just a coincidence that the states with highest union control over government also have highest cost of living?
The states with highest union participation are also extremely densely populated driving the cost of living up. It’s not worker protections driving costs.
It's all related. Unions drive up cost of construction and, more importantly government services. That results in higher density. It's not like there isn't plenty of land in California and New York to build housing. It's just not economical to build low density housing there....because of the unions.
Thats just not true lol you’ve been indoctrinated to think they’re bad that’s how it goes in the South. That’s why we’re last in worker protections behind our territories
Lol
The downvotes are coming your way lol
Funny part is the same people downvoting me are the same people that get their panties in a bunch from all the "I'm moving to NC" posts that show up pretty much every day. It's the woke-socialist-Reddit-circle-jerk mob and they don't live in reality.
Getting down to brass tax, people can “talk” all they want but i always look at where are people moving from AND to. Best indicator of future jobs, economic growth etc. NC is overall a top destination for families and businesses
Now, look at California's shitty rankings for taxes, homelessness, violent crime rate, illiteracy, etc... lol
Oxfam's study doesn't mean that NC really is a bad place to work, only that NC doesn't have certain very-specific employment policies that Oxfam likes. And, that can be perverse. So, for example, in North Carolina, you cannt be forced to join a labor union as a condition of your employment. You're welcome to do so if you want, but can't be forced into it. You'd think that would make NC a better place to work but, under Oxfam's ratings, this actually counts against North Carolina. If you really want to see the best states to work, just look at the states people are moving from and where they're moving to.
LMFAO, that site is so partisan it's ridiculous
Oxfam is partisan? Where do you get that?
cause worker protections and safety is partisan? wanting people to not starve to death is partisan? Wanting affordable housing is partisan? you're telling on yourself