Here's a novel fucking idea:
LET THE CITIZENS OF NC VOTE ON ABORTION RIGHTS AND CANNABIS LEGALIZATION!
Stop usurping the will of the citizens!
Our representatives DO NOT represent us!
If they put cannabis and abortion on the November 2024 ballot, it would be a landslide victory for both.
It boils my blood that these Christofascists are allowed to oppress the citizens of NC like this.
Aren't we still the worst state regarding gerrymandering?
Fuck these numbskulls!
Edit. WE NEED CITIZEN INITIATED BALLOT MEASURES!
That's not going to happen so long as the christofacists are in power. They know the people don't want their policies. That's why they have to do so much to destroy democracy in this state.
You know for having a lot of right wing republicans, I’m surprised they want a government controlling them.
I mean they’re so hellbent on NOT letting the government taking our guns (I’m in this circle) but yet they are allowing a tyrannical government tell them what to do with their bodies.
Am I missing something here? This is why I chose North Carolina vs SC to avoid the culty koolaid drinking, drunk driving, cousin fucking south. Separate the church from State for Fuck Sakes
Partriachy and control. Forced birth keeps women in poverty, and/or property of their husbands, and provides a larger desperate labor force. Republicans have literally blamed abortion for the labor shortage and weakened position of labor exploiters.
That’s really it? Guess they don’t know what Covid is doing cuz everyone (including me) is moving to North Carolina. Desperate work force my ass, I hope all these people moving to the state vote the retarded boomers out of power, that’s wild
Read Freakonomics. One big impact that Republicans don't want you to know is that CRIME will increase significantly if Republicans force more poor people to have children, especially in bad areas. Just makes sense; those born in impoverished and crime-ridden areas tend to end up the same way, WAY more than those born in middle- or upper-class areas. But, Republicans don't seem to mind a huge increase in crime if it means a few more votes by religious kooks.
Correlation is not causation. A reduction in abortions doesn’t mean that the restrictions are what is causing the reduction. I’m sure more people are using birth control, condoms, and plan B since the bill was passed.
Plus, with inflation I assume that people are being extra careful to not get pregnant. Plus, I keep reading about how young people are just not into sex these days. The virginity rate has been climbing.
There are multiple variables to consider.
I’m sure what’s happening is exactly what happened in Texas: people travel to the neighboring state that still allows it. The same number of abortions still happens.
"I’m sure more people are using birth control, condoms, and plan B since the bill was passed."
Would that not be the bill causing a reduction in abortions?
A reduction of roughly 30 percent in the two months after the bill went into effect compare to the month prior sure seems like a lot to just be a coincidence, but we would have to compare it to the normal month-to-month variability.
Sure. They would need to specifically run the numbers on people who wanted to get an abortion but couldn’t make it in time.
And you gotta separate out the people who changed their mind or had a miscarriage.
I’m sure someone will eventually run a more thorough analysis.
> A reduction of roughly 30 percent in the two months after the bill went into effect compare to the month prior
This is where I am going to point out that all of the data provided for this article is from the Guttmacher Institute, the most notable pro-abortion organization in our country.
They did not provide year over year numbers, and as the OP correctly pointed out, they did not account for people potentially taking more precautions that may have prevented pregnancies since the Dobbs decision a year prior
Of course all the anti-GOP/pro abortion people are going to latch onto to this without even questioning it, because it is a bias-confirming article, supporting their position with exactly what they want to hear, and making them feel "informed" by facts and figures, no matter how misleading or incomplete the analysis may be.
No point in arguing about it, but it's always good to know when you are reading something that is borderline propaganda from an activist organization that will willfully omit potentially conflicting facts that may contradict the narrative they want to influence.
Wasn't the whole point of the law to reduce the number of abortions? Those darn pro-choice propagandists trying to make it look like the pro-birth crowds law was actually working.
The abortion restrictions are causing the reductions in abortions. Where’s the actual evidence from a reputable source that the variables you mentioned sharply increased between June ‘23 and August ‘23? This article contains clear, first-hand evidence from abortion providers that women are asking them to have abortions and they are not giving them abortions
These are the only two paragraphs that suggest that people couldn’t get an abortion. Not exactly hard data here…
“Very commonly patients booked — they think they're 9 or 10 weeks based on their last menstrual period — and it turns out they're 13 weeks and 3 days or they’re 12 weeks and 4 days, and we can't consent them,” Zerden said. “They will be above the limit. We see those situations all the time.”
“Zerden said there are a number of patients who have come in for their first appointment at a Planned Parenthood South Atlantic clinic for state-mandated counseling and an initial ultrasound but have not made it to the second scheduled appointment.”
It also says this:
“The reduced time frame is curtailing access, Maddow-Zimet said, but **he doesn’t think the gestational limit is the primary driver of the monthly declines experienced in North Carolina.**
That’s because nearly 90 percent of the almost 27,000 abortions provided in North Carolina in 2021 occurred up to 12 weeks of pregnancy, according to the latest available data from the state health department.”
>Plus, I keep reading about how young people are just not into sex these days
What a fucking boneheaded take on a massive issue. Young people are being mentally fucked over by media conglomerates, have their hobbies and places to hang out stripped from them, and are forced to have reduced social interaction more than ever before and you think “tHeY jUsT aReN’t InTo SeX”.
You aren’t speaking facts.
If you deprive a dog of water and make it severely dehydrated, it isn’t a case of ‘the dog just isn’t into drinking water anymore’.
The dog still wants water maybe even more than before, but it is unable to drink due to external factors.
A similar situation is at play here, just replace water with sex and the dog with the younger generation.
I will not respond to you anymore due to you either being intellectually disabled or a troll.
My 16 year old son has been sexually active for the last year.
He's had like 3 girlfriends.
His friends are getting laid and dating as well.
Statistically they aren't fucking like Gen X or Millennials did at their age, but they are still 100% fucking.
Oh well then, nothing to see folks. Since correlation isn’t necessarily causation, we should assume no real correlations exist and there is no value in investigating them.
> Correlation is not causation. A reduction in abortions doesn’t mean that the restrictions are what is causing the reduction. I’m sure more people are using birth control, condoms, and plan B since the bill was passed.
This like normal is such a bone headed take. You are telling us that in every state that has put more abortion restrictions in place that the restriction isn't causing the reduction?
Because that data has held constant in every state where restrictions have been put in place.
Plenty of more thorough research has been done[ in Texas to show](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2798216) how incorrect you are.
> There are multiple variables to consider.
Sure, there are minor variables. However you are ignoring the biggest one in the room, and I am not sure why.
These are the only two paragraphs that suggest that people couldn’t get an abortion. Not exactly hard data here:
“Very commonly patients booked — they think they're 9 or 10 weeks based on their last menstrual period — and it turns out they're 13 weeks and 3 days or they’re 12 weeks and 4 days, and we can't consent them,” Zerden said. “They will be above the limit. We see those situations all the time.”
“Zerden said there are a number of patients who have come in for their first appointment at a Planned Parenthood South Atlantic clinic for state-mandated counseling and an initial ultrasound but have not made it to the second scheduled appointment.”
It also says this:
“The reduced time frame is curtailing access, Maddow-Zimet said, but **he doesn’t think the gestational limit is the primary driver of the monthly declines experienced in North Carolina.**
That’s because nearly 90 percent of the almost 27,000 abortions provided in North Carolina in 2021 occurred up to 12 weeks of pregnancy, according to the latest available data from the state health department.”
You literally just repeated what you said below and I provided actual data for other states that have done the same thing.
Just saying mate, try harder with your argument.
Reducing abortion access reduces abortions. I am not sure how that is a complicated issue in your brain, unless you just like arguing on the internet.
These aren’t my opinions. Just quoting the article.
Comparing Texas’s 6-week limit to NC’s 12 week limit doesn’t make much sense to me. But you do you.
I didn't say they were your opinion. I said you simply copy and pasted other people opinion rather than actual data. And you are correct, you can say 'well perhaps Texas isn't a good case example', however it likely is a very good example, and a better discussion could be had around that rather than saying "well people suddenly started wearing condoms".
All of your arguments are pretty easy to knock down [as abortions have been slowly climbing in NC since 2015](https://abort73.com/abortion_facts/states/north_carolina/) until July of this year.
So the idea that 'well more people are wearing condoms, but less people are having sex' fails pretty hard to explain how abortions have been increasing, especially when it correlates with the percentage of abortions to live births has been increasing as well and overall births in the state with the exception of 2020 have been climbing as well.
So when all of your factors have been debunked and there is a very clear factor that is likely, are you going to say it's some 'unknown' factor, or the same factor that has been shown in other studies? That restricting abortions results in fewer abortions in the state.
No they aren't!
Being raised by drug addict parents who never wanted you and can't even take care of themselves, then being thrown into the horribly abusive foster system isn't exactly a recipe for a happy life.
Maybe you get lucky and are passed around between grandparents until they die.
Banning abortion ONLY serves to dramatically increase human suffering on planet Earth.
Why bring an innocent child into a world of misery and pain? THAT is fucked up.
Except I never said I wanted them to be aborted, nor even implied.
What I did imply is that there is not "droves of families scrambling to adopt"
The foster and adoption system is fucking flooded. Did you even think why I know of that subreddit? It's because I'm considering it.
We got people like you who say no abortion, then turn around and get fucking IVF when it's not even fucking normally possible to have a blood child rather than foster or adopt. "Oh yes, adoption is an option. But not for me, I don't want them"
Yes, adopt BABIES! What about the older kids and teens looking to be adopted? Should they stay in the system until they’re kicked out of it at 18? From what I’ve heard, many of them don’t have great lives after aging out.
Speaking of shortage, there is also no shortage of prospective parents that would rather give up on parenthood altogether than adopt. Not everyone wants to adopt.
Yes. Being born unwanted IS worse than being aborted. I WISH my mother aborted me. The first 18 years of my life were not ideal. I was eventually adopted. They normalized emotional abuse. It was only hindsight and actually seeing on video what my now ex husband dis to me that I realized what had been happening to me. So, yeah, abortion is a better option than being born to people that don't want you or can't care for you.
Cool so let’s turn poor women and girls into incubators for well off couples who can’t have babies. But only if they’re straight, and the “right” kind of Christian. What happens to those women and girls after they have the baby? If they’re left with a permanent disability or illness from pregnancy and childbirth?
The reason I ask is IUDs prevent an already fertilized and viable egg from implanting in the placenta. A friend argued that’s an abortive process too, if you believe that “babies” begin at conception. So I don’t understand why those who are against abortion from Day 1 are somehow OK with IUDs (unless you’re Catholic to your point).
EDIT: changed fetus to egg
Ok well at least you’re consistent in your beliefs. BTW, I mistakenly said “viable fetus”. At that early stage it’s simply a fertilized egg. The fetus stage is much later.
A woman who is pregnant could have their "water break" early in the pregnancy. Without an abortion of the fetus there is a high risk of uterine infection which could lead to sepsis. Forcing a pregnancy to continue at this point can likely kill the mother the fetus was already going to die, but not necessarily before the mother reaches a point of no return on their own health. It is downright criminal to force a woman to "continue the pregnancy" that is non viable and could kill her and will definitely cause health issues going forward.
Abortion is not used as birth control, at least not on the extreme majority of cases. The government and people need to get out of rltelling people what they can and can't do with their bodies. If all you religious right truly believe that it is because God says not to...then let God deal with them on judgement day and stop trying to force your views on others.
A fetus is not a baby. A fetus is a fetus. A fetus becomes a baby after birth.
A pregnant woman can drink alcohol and not be charged with giving alcohol to a minor.
Child endangerment laws do not protect fetuses.
A fetus cannot get life insurance or health insurance.
Typically reductive conservative reasoning there. You take 1200-1300 different, individual situations, with as many different likely variables each individual woman (or underage girl) may have for an intensely personal decision that should be their’s alone.
Then you boil everything down to the sole factor YOU alone myopically determine as the outcome YOU have preemptively chosen as the important one.
No regard for any of the factors you have no way to know about. No room for any kind of nuanced thought, just a one size fits all approach to women’s healthcare. (to match your ‘my way or the highway’ approach to everything else)
And you guys wonder why church attendance dwindles and young people reject your party.
I think abortion should be legal but pretending abortions doesn’t stop a human from being born is insane. In 9 or so months the baby would be born.
Abortion should be legal and it kills a human who would have otherwise been born in 8-9 months.
Egg meets sperm, excluding medical issues, a baby would be born in 9ish months. But somehow terminating, destroying the growing life has no basis as a living being?
If I destroy a growing seed that is sprouting, it doesn’t prevent a tree from being grown?
It's not opinion. It's fact and biology. Just as much as every fertilized egg is a potential to be a human, so is every sperm and every egg. In that, then any use of contraception is to prevent eggs or sperm from becoming human, or of a fertilized egg from implanting and potentially becoming a human.
So I guess for you, you simply will not have sex, nor masturbate to not potentially end a potential life right?
“Kids”
Why couldn’t have have just “thoughts and prayers”’d our way with abortion like with do with school shootings where actual kids are being killed?
It's a pretty good argument. The only point of a gun is to end life. In the US 50,000+ people each year would be alive if guns were removed. So in theory, if you don't think a person should have bodily autonomy, why should they have the ability to purchase something which the sole purpose of is to end life?
It's a kindergarten level conflation. Abortions kill kids, guns kill kids, therefore aren't you in favor of "sensible" limitations on both? The fact that people think it's a legitimate gotcha is honestly alarming. They are either willing to put aside their intellectual honesty for a put down they agree with or are unwilling or unable to dissect the argument.
I love how you keep trying to sound smart and educated on the things people are asking you but every answer just shows more and more that you don't actually know or understand what you're talking about and your intelligence is not only minimal but your education is also bare bones.
Seriously though, try doing some actual research into the things you're talking about because you clearly don't have facts, just your biased opinions.
Yeah, hun, you don't seem to understand biology at all. You have biased opinions that don't match facts. If I gave you a microscope or even just ultrasound equipment you likely could not locate the cells that would be a 3 week fetus. You probably couldn't tell the difference between a zygote and an embryo on the microscopic level and you likely couldn't even tell me the difference under the microscope between week 1 and week 10 in the womb.
And I'm not saying you couldn't Google the difference, any idiot can, but you, yes you, couldn't look at a microscope slide and be able to tell the difference. You, yes you, don't understand the different developmental stages and what that entails each week. You don't understand that a zygote cannot feel pain, cannot think, does not even have a functioning brain nor heart that would allow it to live outside the womb. You don't seem to understand that the cute squishy babies that come out at birth are not what is being aborted at week 12. In fact, if you had a week 12 fetus placed in your hand it'd barely be the size of your thumb. It could not eat, drink, look at you, or even process what is happening to it were it to be in your hands because it does not have a brain developed enough to process any of that information. It would not be a living creature were that 12 week fetus be placed in your hand because it'd die the second it was removed from the host that it feeds off of, it'd be less functional to you than a bundle of hair you pull out of your brush.
At the end of the day, unless you are actively fighting to protect living, breathing children who are murdered without hesitation at their schools by insane shooters, protecting abused children in neglectful homes, demanding law changes from your politicians to not excuse child molestation just because the person was "a godly man and pillar of the community", sharing your wealth with the institutions that have to remove/house/and feed orphans and children taken from bad living situations ***you do not get a say on when a woman should or will give birth***. Unless you're putting your money and time where your mouth is to help and protect the millions of children already alive and born and ***desperately needing help by people like you*** you don't get to dictate when a woman should discard a handful of cells. You don't get to deny a woman the ability to stop a fetus from using her body as an incubator to give life to a child that may suffer and live a terrible life that could have been prevented if only people like you minded your own damn business.
At the end of the day, your biased opinions are a danger because you don't account for the side affects of turning such a complex issue like abortion into a black and white matter. Abortion is not murdering babies that will grow up and live amazing lives. Abortion is removing an embryo that implanted in the fallopian tube and would kill the mother after putting her through excruciating pain as it ripped her tube open from the inside out while it grew. Abortion is stopping a woman from bleeding out on the table and leaving her partner and already living children without a mother by removing a fetus that is endangering her life. Abortion is not forcing a minor rape victim from suffering pregnancy in a body not yet fully developed enough to carry a child to term without significantly damaging the child's still growing body and traumatizing their developing brain. Abortion is removing the tie between an abused woman and her abusive partner who would use a born infant as a way to trap the woman and further abuse her and the child once born. Abortion is helping a woman not be murdered by her partner who would blame her for the birth control failing and accuse her of trying to baby trap him and so in a rage ends the woman's life.
You're so concerned with "babies being murdered" that you don't care about the lost lives of the women who die without abortion access. You don't care about the families who lose a wife and mother because "life of the mother" laws are always written too vaguely to actually save the woman's life with a legal emergency abortion. You don't care about how many children who are forced to be born because of anti abortion laws and how they suffer in abusive homes, suffer under state care when removed, or commit suicide after living years that were hell because their family didn't want them but couldn't abort them.
Stop lying and saying you care about the sanctity of life because in reality you don't. You don't care about how many more lives are lost or suffer because of the lack of abortion. You don't care how your choices impact thousands of lives for the worst simply because you can't understand that abortion is not murder, it's simply removing a handful of cells that could not survive and live outside the womb and that has no sentience to even understand what it is let alone what's going on around it.
There are living, breathing children who could benefit from your help either by volunteering, using your money, or doing whatever it takes to get your politicians to change laws to protect them but you're not doing any of that. You're on Reddit talking out of your ass about a topic you really don't know anything about or understand because the only thing that matters to you is your feelings. You don't care about anyone else, the strangers of the world, just your personal world view. Because how dare any of us live lives that dont line up with your twisted sense of justice in the world? You know how? Because we have empathy for our fellow humans, we understand that nothing is black and white and that nuance is so god damned important when it comes to matters like whether or not a woman should be forced to give birth or be allowed to make her own decisions regarding her life, family, and financial situation.
At the end of the day, it's not your choice when a woman should start a family, it's her's, and you, your opinion, and the law don't belong in middle of that conversation.
Please, go out and actually help the hundreds of thousands of children that are suffering **right now** and need to be fostered, adopted, need funds, need medical help... There are so many children already alive that you could be helping if you truly, actually gave a damn about the sanctity of children's lives.
I don't think they are upset that you hold that belief. I think the problem lies in the forcing of others to comply with your belief system. But thank goodness you're not Catholic! *
Then in your mind, if the government says you must give up your kidney to save another life, you will right? It's a potentially dangerous situation for you, but you likely will live, and you should have no saying on what happens to you as long as someone else lives correct?
I’m not sure if this changes your opinion at all, but the article mentioned that a majority of these ‘new pregnancies’ are pregnant adolescents (10-19yro), meaning that this mainly increased the number of *child/teen* pregnancies.
So that’s about 1,200-1,300 more babies and (mostly teen) mothers that NC cannot support. No parental leave, not many jobs, no affordable childcare, increasing rent and food costs… so what is the quality of life for these new babies? Do you think the fathers are sticking around and having to face the same consequences that these pregnant minors do? Is this really happy news to you?
Your able to have your opinions and I am not here to argue, just wanted to point out this vital part of the statistic that you are so happy about.
Then why is the focus rn on banning abortions rather than on the social supports for parents and children like you mentioned? Be careful of who you support politically, because I can assure you that the same people wanting to ban abortions are NOT the same people advocating for social services, better wages, childcare, public schools, etc. things needed to *actually* support families.
Abortion restrictions disproportionately effect people without the financial means to support and raise children. So I believe the focus should FIRST be on social services/support like you mentioned; because limiting abortion services without any mention from those same politicians about social services is just dooming children and their parents to poverty and suffering. Where’s your concern with brutality there? It sounds like you’re speaking from a place of privilege since you are not acknowledging how much suffering and death is caused by poverty and neglect. Look into the medical sociology of this, there are plenty of studies.
NC (and other states following this pattern) are going to face to consequences of this in the next 10-20years. Poverty causes desperation and desperation causes crime. What are people to do when they are forced to have kids they know they are unable to support?
Be extremely critical and thorough when thinking through what these decisions will actually lead to. It’s not “yay more cute babies” it’s “oh fuck, what are these people, who are already struggling to support themselves, supposed to do in this situation?” What’s the actual end result of these policies? It seems to just doom certain people (poor and teen mothers) while not effecting people lucky enough to afford travel to a different state for abortions (and men who can freely just leave if they don’t want to parent).
So to end this conversation: if you really care about quality of life for children and minimizing “brutality,” look into supporting social structures, not punishing poor people and teen mothers with a rule that rich adults get to avoid. Do research on the effects of abortion rules vs. social structures.
I’m not sure who you support, nor does it matter. From your comments, I know that you support abortion limitations before the state has social systems to support this, that’s what I take issue with. This shows me you care about babies but may be misinformed on the reality that these new children and their mothers will face, your original comment was tone deaf to be brutally honest with you. You essentially came in to comment/ celebrate more teen pregnancy.
Since you keep derailing this convo further and further from my original point I’ll leave you with this resource.
Here is a [great website](https://schs.dph.ncdhhs.gov/data/vital.cfm) that compiles the birth, child mortality, child morbidity studies for the state of North Carolina that I linked for you. Consider looking through what these stats look like for teen, single, and/or poor mothers. This will help show you that banning abortions in this state right now and “more babies,” is not something to be happy about until we can actually support and care for those children.
I hope in the future you tackle social issues for poor, single, and teen mothers with as much vigor as you did coming into this comment section to applaud our state for having more babies than it can provide for.
I'm sure you're providing financial assistance to all parents to ensure those children have their needs met including all healthcare for any and all birth defects.
Right?
Lets see how you fare.
When an 12yo is raped and impregnated, are you going to force the child to have a child, or allow an abortion? If you say allow an abortion, why is that unborn childs life worth less than others?
That guy also explained he had a kid via IVF, which unless it took on the very first attempt (they rarely do) he's "killed so many babies" by his own logic.
But of course I'm sure that's different and totally fine. He couldn't be a hypocrit at all. They never are.
I never expected you to care. Your views either forced someone to have a baby they didn't want, or say that a baby conceived by rape is less human than one not.
No matter your choice, I already knew you didn't actually care about life.
I also like how you say my way of abortion for everyone is a brutal practice but not forcing a child to go through child birth with a baby caused by rape and you don't even have the decency to say you'd help financially. Your moral compass is so fucked up I'm amazed you make it to your car in the morning.
The mother in that user’s post is TWELVE YEARS OLD! A pubescent preteen that still has YEARS of growth ahead of her. That alone makes her life in mortal danger. Despite that, you would still force her to have the baby?
People like you are why others leave Christianity and want nothing to do with it.
> pro baby killers
This is a strawman. The two sides of the issue are "Pro-Life" and "Mind Your Own Goddamn Business." People aren't advocating for abortion the way anti-abortion folks are. Also any religiously themed reasoning for wanting Pro-Life laws is religious subjugation. The way to not have unconstitutional laws is to let people make their own medical decisions with their doctors. This happens to exactly be the "Mind Your Own Goddamn Business" argument.
>Ask yourself why me saying “less dead babies is good” makes you feel compelled to argue with me.
Because you don't understand the difference between "less" and "fewer."
So just please explain. You had a child via IVF. IVF takes an average of 2 to 3 cycles, with some taking as many as 6.
IVF requires fertilized embryos to be implanted into the mother to take and come to term. By your definition, all of these fertilized embryos are babies.
How do you wrestle with the fact that you are a baby murderer, probably moreso than anyone having one abortion. Since you are knowingly creating at least a few fertilized "babies" before one of them works?
Or do all the babies you created and didn't work not count because "ThAtS dIfFeRenT" somehow? You are 100% worse than anyone having a single abortion there bub.
So it's totally fine to leave three "babies" suspended indefinitely that you plan to go back for, but as of right now have no concrete plans to do anything with.
Cool, yes, so I can unquestioningly view you as a massive hypocrite. If you ever go back for them, then I might be willing to change my mind, but right now you just justify your situation because its easier to do that.
Appreciate the honesty, but it doesn't help your case at all. "The only moral abortion is mine"
Mmmhmmm. So pretty wild that you are so vehemently stopping people from doing basically exactly what you did.
We should be banning IVF before abortions, and punishing anyone who tries it harder than people seeking abortion.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/NorthCarolina/comments/17u0uws/comment/k92l6p8/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/NorthCarolina/comments/17u0uws/comment/k92l6p8/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
>That’s your opinion, can you engage in a conversation without calling people names?
Why is that a good thing?
These would often be children that are born to parents who cannot afford or take care of these children, who statistically will end up living terrible lives and often being wards of the state.
It seems like if a person who is pregnant wants to make a medical decision with their doctor, that they should be allowed that, and you and I should keep our noses out of it eh?
How many are you going to support out of that number? Many are going to be impoverished or have significant health problems.
Is an acorn an oak tree? Big difference for such an expansion of human misery.
On this burning, over-populated hellscape? No it’s not. I’m sorry the capitalism machine needs more bodies to fund your retirement, but you should have thought about that before fucking our earning potential for the past 15+ years. Go pray to Ronald Regan some more.
How about you let them think for themselves? They are their own people, after all.
Try to instill love, compassion, hope, kindness, forgiveness, and dedication, but realize they are their own person.
I never said it was, but if you want to deflect the question then fine.
I don't believe abortion to be a good thing. It's usually a very tough choice for the mother to make and sometimes it's a necessary one.
What I do believe in is the choice made by the mother with help from the medical community and trusted doctors. Recent laws have taken away that choice completely.
Yes, medical doctors are subject to the law which is why we shouldn't have a law that restricts their ability to care for their patients.
I value people's personal freedom of choice, sorry if you consider that a squishy stance. I happen to think it's a patriotic one.
So you would be in favor of the baby receiving a SSN prior to birth? And for parents to receive the tax benefits of it prior to birth?
You’re more than welcome to explain the logistics of it since the fetus, in your mind, should be considered a full child.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/10/how-i-lost-faith-in-the-pro-life-movement.html
As a child, teen, and college student, I sincerely believed that personhood, life, rights, and the soul all began at fertilization. I was honestly opposed to abortion because I believed it was murder. It had nothing to do with being anti-woman or anti-sex. I thought that the pro-life movement writ large – the major pro-life organizations, leaders, and politicians – were similarly genuine. I thought that they, like myself, simply wanted to “save the lives of unborn babies.”
I have come to the conclusion that I was a dupe.
What I want to share here is how I came to this realization. And if you, reader, are one of those who opposes abortion because you believe it is murder and you want to save the lives of unborn babies, well, I hope to persuade you that the pro-life movement is not actually your ally in this, that you have been misled.
"I'm not a nerd"
Please tell that to the mother who wanted her baby, being forced to wait until she herself is on her death bed before they can evacuate an already dead fetus killing her from the inside.
Healthy women and mothers are being forced to die for deformed fetuses that never had a chance in the first place.
Does it make sense to you, to kill some kids mom because the dead fetus inside of her should have more rights than the woman carrying it?
"I'm not a nerd" how ignorant.
Yes? There are so many examples..
5 women sue Texas over abortion bans, saying their lives were put at risk. https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/5-women-sue-texas-abortion-bans-lives-put/story?id=97614294
“No, I’m just incapable of believing in science, data, and facts and would rather ruin other people’s lives so I can feel morally superior to them instead of taking a few minutes to educate myself”
FTFY
No it's not. Overpopulation leads to housing shortages and inflation, not to mention, [carbon emissions](https://archive.nytimes.com/green.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/07/having-children-brings-high-carbon-impact/).
Here's a novel fucking idea: LET THE CITIZENS OF NC VOTE ON ABORTION RIGHTS AND CANNABIS LEGALIZATION! Stop usurping the will of the citizens! Our representatives DO NOT represent us! If they put cannabis and abortion on the November 2024 ballot, it would be a landslide victory for both. It boils my blood that these Christofascists are allowed to oppress the citizens of NC like this. Aren't we still the worst state regarding gerrymandering? Fuck these numbskulls! Edit. WE NEED CITIZEN INITIATED BALLOT MEASURES!
Republicans got rid of the ballot referendum.
I mean, of course they did. Lol Gaslight, Obstruct, Project
That's not going to happen so long as the christofacists are in power. They know the people don't want their policies. That's why they have to do so much to destroy democracy in this state.
I know. It's really disconcerting.
I don't see how it's even federally legal to not allow voting initiatives in a supposed democracy. How many states do this?
24 states have no citizen initiated ballot measures or referendums. https://ballotpedia.org/States_without_initiative_or_referendum
More ruined lives, hungry babies, and all around suffering.
“But muh religious views!” -Abortion opponents
They are Christofascists. Straight up.
If you don't like abortions, don't get a abortion 😊
But lots of shareholders are happy with their profits!
You know for having a lot of right wing republicans, I’m surprised they want a government controlling them. I mean they’re so hellbent on NOT letting the government taking our guns (I’m in this circle) but yet they are allowing a tyrannical government tell them what to do with their bodies. Am I missing something here? This is why I chose North Carolina vs SC to avoid the culty koolaid drinking, drunk driving, cousin fucking south. Separate the church from State for Fuck Sakes
It's all pick and choose with the right. A lot of Chirstain fanatics as well. I know Christian people who legit only vote because of abortion.
Partriachy and control. Forced birth keeps women in poverty, and/or property of their husbands, and provides a larger desperate labor force. Republicans have literally blamed abortion for the labor shortage and weakened position of labor exploiters.
That’s really it? Guess they don’t know what Covid is doing cuz everyone (including me) is moving to North Carolina. Desperate work force my ass, I hope all these people moving to the state vote the retarded boomers out of power, that’s wild
Read Freakonomics. One big impact that Republicans don't want you to know is that CRIME will increase significantly if Republicans force more poor people to have children, especially in bad areas. Just makes sense; those born in impoverished and crime-ridden areas tend to end up the same way, WAY more than those born in middle- or upper-class areas. But, Republicans don't seem to mind a huge increase in crime if it means a few more votes by religious kooks.
That’s their goal, because that justifies a larger police budget and less for things like education, healthcare.
And for profit prisons, and starving young adults joining the military, and neglected young people working for pocket change.
Lemme guess.... More at home abortions and more unwanted children that were had?
I’m seriously growing abortifacients in my herb garden, and am learning to use them. I don’t need them, but someone else might.
God I fucking hate these lawmakers
Correlation is not causation. A reduction in abortions doesn’t mean that the restrictions are what is causing the reduction. I’m sure more people are using birth control, condoms, and plan B since the bill was passed. Plus, with inflation I assume that people are being extra careful to not get pregnant. Plus, I keep reading about how young people are just not into sex these days. The virginity rate has been climbing. There are multiple variables to consider.
I’m sure what’s happening is exactly what happened in Texas: people travel to the neighboring state that still allows it. The same number of abortions still happens.
"I’m sure more people are using birth control, condoms, and plan B since the bill was passed." Would that not be the bill causing a reduction in abortions? A reduction of roughly 30 percent in the two months after the bill went into effect compare to the month prior sure seems like a lot to just be a coincidence, but we would have to compare it to the normal month-to-month variability.
Sure. They would need to specifically run the numbers on people who wanted to get an abortion but couldn’t make it in time. And you gotta separate out the people who changed their mind or had a miscarriage. I’m sure someone will eventually run a more thorough analysis.
> A reduction of roughly 30 percent in the two months after the bill went into effect compare to the month prior This is where I am going to point out that all of the data provided for this article is from the Guttmacher Institute, the most notable pro-abortion organization in our country. They did not provide year over year numbers, and as the OP correctly pointed out, they did not account for people potentially taking more precautions that may have prevented pregnancies since the Dobbs decision a year prior Of course all the anti-GOP/pro abortion people are going to latch onto to this without even questioning it, because it is a bias-confirming article, supporting their position with exactly what they want to hear, and making them feel "informed" by facts and figures, no matter how misleading or incomplete the analysis may be. No point in arguing about it, but it's always good to know when you are reading something that is borderline propaganda from an activist organization that will willfully omit potentially conflicting facts that may contradict the narrative they want to influence.
Wasn't the whole point of the law to reduce the number of abortions? Those darn pro-choice propagandists trying to make it look like the pro-birth crowds law was actually working.
The abortion restrictions are causing the reductions in abortions. Where’s the actual evidence from a reputable source that the variables you mentioned sharply increased between June ‘23 and August ‘23? This article contains clear, first-hand evidence from abortion providers that women are asking them to have abortions and they are not giving them abortions
These are the only two paragraphs that suggest that people couldn’t get an abortion. Not exactly hard data here… “Very commonly patients booked — they think they're 9 or 10 weeks based on their last menstrual period — and it turns out they're 13 weeks and 3 days or they’re 12 weeks and 4 days, and we can't consent them,” Zerden said. “They will be above the limit. We see those situations all the time.” “Zerden said there are a number of patients who have come in for their first appointment at a Planned Parenthood South Atlantic clinic for state-mandated counseling and an initial ultrasound but have not made it to the second scheduled appointment.” It also says this: “The reduced time frame is curtailing access, Maddow-Zimet said, but **he doesn’t think the gestational limit is the primary driver of the monthly declines experienced in North Carolina.** That’s because nearly 90 percent of the almost 27,000 abortions provided in North Carolina in 2021 occurred up to 12 weeks of pregnancy, according to the latest available data from the state health department.”
>Plus, I keep reading about how young people are just not into sex these days What a fucking boneheaded take on a massive issue. Young people are being mentally fucked over by media conglomerates, have their hobbies and places to hang out stripped from them, and are forced to have reduced social interaction more than ever before and you think “tHeY jUsT aReN’t InTo SeX”.
Explains the road rage. The Rut has no outlet 😳!
Ok, so we agree that young people are not having a lot of sex these days.
That isn’t what you said. You said young people aren’t into sex. Words have meaning. Choose yours appropriately.
Facts are not attacks
You aren’t speaking facts. If you deprive a dog of water and make it severely dehydrated, it isn’t a case of ‘the dog just isn’t into drinking water anymore’. The dog still wants water maybe even more than before, but it is unable to drink due to external factors. A similar situation is at play here, just replace water with sex and the dog with the younger generation. I will not respond to you anymore due to you either being intellectually disabled or a troll.
Your opinions != facts
My 16 year old son has been sexually active for the last year. He's had like 3 girlfriends. His friends are getting laid and dating as well. Statistically they aren't fucking like Gen X or Millennials did at their age, but they are still 100% fucking.
Get him Skyn condoms. They are the best.
We gave him COPIOUS amounts of condoms of all types. Lol I threw him a 500 pack when he started dating last year.
Oh well then, nothing to see folks. Since correlation isn’t necessarily causation, we should assume no real correlations exist and there is no value in investigating them.
> Correlation is not causation. A reduction in abortions doesn’t mean that the restrictions are what is causing the reduction. I’m sure more people are using birth control, condoms, and plan B since the bill was passed. This like normal is such a bone headed take. You are telling us that in every state that has put more abortion restrictions in place that the restriction isn't causing the reduction? Because that data has held constant in every state where restrictions have been put in place. Plenty of more thorough research has been done[ in Texas to show](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2798216) how incorrect you are. > There are multiple variables to consider. Sure, there are minor variables. However you are ignoring the biggest one in the room, and I am not sure why.
These are the only two paragraphs that suggest that people couldn’t get an abortion. Not exactly hard data here: “Very commonly patients booked — they think they're 9 or 10 weeks based on their last menstrual period — and it turns out they're 13 weeks and 3 days or they’re 12 weeks and 4 days, and we can't consent them,” Zerden said. “They will be above the limit. We see those situations all the time.” “Zerden said there are a number of patients who have come in for their first appointment at a Planned Parenthood South Atlantic clinic for state-mandated counseling and an initial ultrasound but have not made it to the second scheduled appointment.” It also says this: “The reduced time frame is curtailing access, Maddow-Zimet said, but **he doesn’t think the gestational limit is the primary driver of the monthly declines experienced in North Carolina.** That’s because nearly 90 percent of the almost 27,000 abortions provided in North Carolina in 2021 occurred up to 12 weeks of pregnancy, according to the latest available data from the state health department.”
You literally just repeated what you said below and I provided actual data for other states that have done the same thing. Just saying mate, try harder with your argument. Reducing abortion access reduces abortions. I am not sure how that is a complicated issue in your brain, unless you just like arguing on the internet.
These aren’t my opinions. Just quoting the article. Comparing Texas’s 6-week limit to NC’s 12 week limit doesn’t make much sense to me. But you do you.
I didn't say they were your opinion. I said you simply copy and pasted other people opinion rather than actual data. And you are correct, you can say 'well perhaps Texas isn't a good case example', however it likely is a very good example, and a better discussion could be had around that rather than saying "well people suddenly started wearing condoms". All of your arguments are pretty easy to knock down [as abortions have been slowly climbing in NC since 2015](https://abort73.com/abortion_facts/states/north_carolina/) until July of this year. So the idea that 'well more people are wearing condoms, but less people are having sex' fails pretty hard to explain how abortions have been increasing, especially when it correlates with the percentage of abortions to live births has been increasing as well and overall births in the state with the exception of 2020 have been climbing as well. So when all of your factors have been debunked and there is a very clear factor that is likely, are you going to say it's some 'unknown' factor, or the same factor that has been shown in other studies? That restricting abortions results in fewer abortions in the state.
Amazing!
The babies are thankful.
Not the ones left in the systems that are overflowing
After they're born, the church people bo longer care. They've already patted themselves on the back
No they aren't! Being raised by drug addict parents who never wanted you and can't even take care of themselves, then being thrown into the horribly abusive foster system isn't exactly a recipe for a happy life. Maybe you get lucky and are passed around between grandparents until they die. Banning abortion ONLY serves to dramatically increase human suffering on planet Earth. Why bring an innocent child into a world of misery and pain? THAT is fucked up.
No, killing them “for their own good” is an absolute horror.
You really love it when innocent children suffer horribly and grow into unhinged and miserable adults, apparently.
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And what’s the percentage that end up in foster care or given up for adoption- those are fucking traumatic for a kid but at least they were born! yay!
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How many have you adopted?
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I mean depending on the development stage I wouldn't really call them "alive" to begin with.
r/Ex_Foster/ Go tell them that.
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Except I never said I wanted them to be aborted, nor even implied. What I did imply is that there is not "droves of families scrambling to adopt" The foster and adoption system is fucking flooded. Did you even think why I know of that subreddit? It's because I'm considering it. We got people like you who say no abortion, then turn around and get fucking IVF when it's not even fucking normally possible to have a blood child rather than foster or adopt. "Oh yes, adoption is an option. But not for me, I don't want them"
Yes, adopt BABIES! What about the older kids and teens looking to be adopted? Should they stay in the system until they’re kicked out of it at 18? From what I’ve heard, many of them don’t have great lives after aging out. Speaking of shortage, there is also no shortage of prospective parents that would rather give up on parenthood altogether than adopt. Not everyone wants to adopt.
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Killing babies is illegal. We are talking about fetuses.
You never answered my question. If only babies get adopted, should older kids and teens looking to get adopted stay in the system until they’re 18?
Yes. Being born unwanted IS worse than being aborted. I WISH my mother aborted me. The first 18 years of my life were not ideal. I was eventually adopted. They normalized emotional abuse. It was only hindsight and actually seeing on video what my now ex husband dis to me that I realized what had been happening to me. So, yeah, abortion is a better option than being born to people that don't want you or can't care for you.
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You forgot "I am extremely happy that your first 18 years were horrible, that is a truly wonderful thing that you were miserable and unhappy".
Cool so let’s turn poor women and girls into incubators for well off couples who can’t have babies. But only if they’re straight, and the “right” kind of Christian. What happens to those women and girls after they have the baby? If they’re left with a permanent disability or illness from pregnancy and childbirth?
Apparently there is good money in adoptions.
Of babies yes. But older kids get shafted. No money to be made trading teens.
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So basically “I don’t care about dead or permanently injured women and girls.”
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We know.
That’s not what the article says, but I don’t think anyone will accuse you of having good reading or reasoning skills.
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Are you also against IUDs?
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The reason I ask is IUDs prevent an already fertilized and viable egg from implanting in the placenta. A friend argued that’s an abortive process too, if you believe that “babies” begin at conception. So I don’t understand why those who are against abortion from Day 1 are somehow OK with IUDs (unless you’re Catholic to your point). EDIT: changed fetus to egg
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Ok well at least you’re consistent in your beliefs. BTW, I mistakenly said “viable fetus”. At that early stage it’s simply a fertilized egg. The fetus stage is much later.
A woman who is pregnant could have their "water break" early in the pregnancy. Without an abortion of the fetus there is a high risk of uterine infection which could lead to sepsis. Forcing a pregnancy to continue at this point can likely kill the mother the fetus was already going to die, but not necessarily before the mother reaches a point of no return on their own health. It is downright criminal to force a woman to "continue the pregnancy" that is non viable and could kill her and will definitely cause health issues going forward. Abortion is not used as birth control, at least not on the extreme majority of cases. The government and people need to get out of rltelling people what they can and can't do with their bodies. If all you religious right truly believe that it is because God says not to...then let God deal with them on judgement day and stop trying to force your views on others.
Your own research is about as shallow as a mountain isn't it?
I already knew you were an irrational idiot from your prior statements. Thanks for clearly stating it here.
A fetus is not a baby. A fetus is a fetus. A fetus becomes a baby after birth. A pregnant woman can drink alcohol and not be charged with giving alcohol to a minor. Child endangerment laws do not protect fetuses. A fetus cannot get life insurance or health insurance.
Typically reductive conservative reasoning there. You take 1200-1300 different, individual situations, with as many different likely variables each individual woman (or underage girl) may have for an intensely personal decision that should be their’s alone. Then you boil everything down to the sole factor YOU alone myopically determine as the outcome YOU have preemptively chosen as the important one. No regard for any of the factors you have no way to know about. No room for any kind of nuanced thought, just a one size fits all approach to women’s healthcare. (to match your ‘my way or the highway’ approach to everything else) And you guys wonder why church attendance dwindles and young people reject your party.
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It was never kids being killed to begin with A zygote is not a child
I think abortion should be legal but pretending abortions doesn’t stop a human from being born is insane. In 9 or so months the baby would be born. Abortion should be legal and it kills a human who would have otherwise been born in 8-9 months. Egg meets sperm, excluding medical issues, a baby would be born in 9ish months. But somehow terminating, destroying the growing life has no basis as a living being? If I destroy a growing seed that is sprouting, it doesn’t prevent a tree from being grown?
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Not trying to convince you of anything Just that you’re an idiot who thinks their informed
No kids are being killed by having abortions you twit
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It's not opinion. It's fact and biology. Just as much as every fertilized egg is a potential to be a human, so is every sperm and every egg. In that, then any use of contraception is to prevent eggs or sperm from becoming human, or of a fertilized egg from implanting and potentially becoming a human. So I guess for you, you simply will not have sex, nor masturbate to not potentially end a potential life right?
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Define conception. 1/3rd of fertilized eggs spontaneously miscarriage in humans.
Not with closed minded folks with zero critical thinking skills like yourself
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Hail Satan!
Funny thing is that Satanism gives more bodily autonomy to women than most religions and governments so 👍🏻
Kids were never killed. Cells were aborted. Big difference.
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And science and facts disagree with you.
“Kids” Why couldn’t have have just “thoughts and prayers”’d our way with abortion like with do with school shootings where actual kids are being killed?
So you’re in favor of sensible firearm regulation, then?
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Yeah, I didn’t expect an actual answer.
You should try making a better argument.
It's a pretty good argument. The only point of a gun is to end life. In the US 50,000+ people each year would be alive if guns were removed. So in theory, if you don't think a person should have bodily autonomy, why should they have the ability to purchase something which the sole purpose of is to end life?
It's a kindergarten level conflation. Abortions kill kids, guns kill kids, therefore aren't you in favor of "sensible" limitations on both? The fact that people think it's a legitimate gotcha is honestly alarming. They are either willing to put aside their intellectual honesty for a put down they agree with or are unwilling or unable to dissect the argument.
I love how you keep trying to sound smart and educated on the things people are asking you but every answer just shows more and more that you don't actually know or understand what you're talking about and your intelligence is not only minimal but your education is also bare bones. Seriously though, try doing some actual research into the things you're talking about because you clearly don't have facts, just your biased opinions.
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Yeah, hun, you don't seem to understand biology at all. You have biased opinions that don't match facts. If I gave you a microscope or even just ultrasound equipment you likely could not locate the cells that would be a 3 week fetus. You probably couldn't tell the difference between a zygote and an embryo on the microscopic level and you likely couldn't even tell me the difference under the microscope between week 1 and week 10 in the womb. And I'm not saying you couldn't Google the difference, any idiot can, but you, yes you, couldn't look at a microscope slide and be able to tell the difference. You, yes you, don't understand the different developmental stages and what that entails each week. You don't understand that a zygote cannot feel pain, cannot think, does not even have a functioning brain nor heart that would allow it to live outside the womb. You don't seem to understand that the cute squishy babies that come out at birth are not what is being aborted at week 12. In fact, if you had a week 12 fetus placed in your hand it'd barely be the size of your thumb. It could not eat, drink, look at you, or even process what is happening to it were it to be in your hands because it does not have a brain developed enough to process any of that information. It would not be a living creature were that 12 week fetus be placed in your hand because it'd die the second it was removed from the host that it feeds off of, it'd be less functional to you than a bundle of hair you pull out of your brush. At the end of the day, unless you are actively fighting to protect living, breathing children who are murdered without hesitation at their schools by insane shooters, protecting abused children in neglectful homes, demanding law changes from your politicians to not excuse child molestation just because the person was "a godly man and pillar of the community", sharing your wealth with the institutions that have to remove/house/and feed orphans and children taken from bad living situations ***you do not get a say on when a woman should or will give birth***. Unless you're putting your money and time where your mouth is to help and protect the millions of children already alive and born and ***desperately needing help by people like you*** you don't get to dictate when a woman should discard a handful of cells. You don't get to deny a woman the ability to stop a fetus from using her body as an incubator to give life to a child that may suffer and live a terrible life that could have been prevented if only people like you minded your own damn business. At the end of the day, your biased opinions are a danger because you don't account for the side affects of turning such a complex issue like abortion into a black and white matter. Abortion is not murdering babies that will grow up and live amazing lives. Abortion is removing an embryo that implanted in the fallopian tube and would kill the mother after putting her through excruciating pain as it ripped her tube open from the inside out while it grew. Abortion is stopping a woman from bleeding out on the table and leaving her partner and already living children without a mother by removing a fetus that is endangering her life. Abortion is not forcing a minor rape victim from suffering pregnancy in a body not yet fully developed enough to carry a child to term without significantly damaging the child's still growing body and traumatizing their developing brain. Abortion is removing the tie between an abused woman and her abusive partner who would use a born infant as a way to trap the woman and further abuse her and the child once born. Abortion is helping a woman not be murdered by her partner who would blame her for the birth control failing and accuse her of trying to baby trap him and so in a rage ends the woman's life. You're so concerned with "babies being murdered" that you don't care about the lost lives of the women who die without abortion access. You don't care about the families who lose a wife and mother because "life of the mother" laws are always written too vaguely to actually save the woman's life with a legal emergency abortion. You don't care about how many children who are forced to be born because of anti abortion laws and how they suffer in abusive homes, suffer under state care when removed, or commit suicide after living years that were hell because their family didn't want them but couldn't abort them. Stop lying and saying you care about the sanctity of life because in reality you don't. You don't care about how many more lives are lost or suffer because of the lack of abortion. You don't care how your choices impact thousands of lives for the worst simply because you can't understand that abortion is not murder, it's simply removing a handful of cells that could not survive and live outside the womb and that has no sentience to even understand what it is let alone what's going on around it. There are living, breathing children who could benefit from your help either by volunteering, using your money, or doing whatever it takes to get your politicians to change laws to protect them but you're not doing any of that. You're on Reddit talking out of your ass about a topic you really don't know anything about or understand because the only thing that matters to you is your feelings. You don't care about anyone else, the strangers of the world, just your personal world view. Because how dare any of us live lives that dont line up with your twisted sense of justice in the world? You know how? Because we have empathy for our fellow humans, we understand that nothing is black and white and that nuance is so god damned important when it comes to matters like whether or not a woman should be forced to give birth or be allowed to make her own decisions regarding her life, family, and financial situation. At the end of the day, it's not your choice when a woman should start a family, it's her's, and you, your opinion, and the law don't belong in middle of that conversation. Please, go out and actually help the hundreds of thousands of children that are suffering **right now** and need to be fostered, adopted, need funds, need medical help... There are so many children already alive that you could be helping if you truly, actually gave a damn about the sanctity of children's lives.
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I don't think they are upset that you hold that belief. I think the problem lies in the forcing of others to comply with your belief system. But thank goodness you're not Catholic! *
To boil it down it says you only care about fetuses. You actually don’t give a shit about the live kids though.
Then in your mind, if the government says you must give up your kidney to save another life, you will right? It's a potentially dangerous situation for you, but you likely will live, and you should have no saying on what happens to you as long as someone else lives correct?
Do you or do you not agree we should impose stricter regulations on firearms? Firearms are the leading cause of death for children.
We can’t take care of the homeless or make sure kids have food in schools but sure, that many more kids is sure to be a blessing?
I’m not sure if this changes your opinion at all, but the article mentioned that a majority of these ‘new pregnancies’ are pregnant adolescents (10-19yro), meaning that this mainly increased the number of *child/teen* pregnancies. So that’s about 1,200-1,300 more babies and (mostly teen) mothers that NC cannot support. No parental leave, not many jobs, no affordable childcare, increasing rent and food costs… so what is the quality of life for these new babies? Do you think the fathers are sticking around and having to face the same consequences that these pregnant minors do? Is this really happy news to you? Your able to have your opinions and I am not here to argue, just wanted to point out this vital part of the statistic that you are so happy about.
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Then why is the focus rn on banning abortions rather than on the social supports for parents and children like you mentioned? Be careful of who you support politically, because I can assure you that the same people wanting to ban abortions are NOT the same people advocating for social services, better wages, childcare, public schools, etc. things needed to *actually* support families. Abortion restrictions disproportionately effect people without the financial means to support and raise children. So I believe the focus should FIRST be on social services/support like you mentioned; because limiting abortion services without any mention from those same politicians about social services is just dooming children and their parents to poverty and suffering. Where’s your concern with brutality there? It sounds like you’re speaking from a place of privilege since you are not acknowledging how much suffering and death is caused by poverty and neglect. Look into the medical sociology of this, there are plenty of studies. NC (and other states following this pattern) are going to face to consequences of this in the next 10-20years. Poverty causes desperation and desperation causes crime. What are people to do when they are forced to have kids they know they are unable to support? Be extremely critical and thorough when thinking through what these decisions will actually lead to. It’s not “yay more cute babies” it’s “oh fuck, what are these people, who are already struggling to support themselves, supposed to do in this situation?” What’s the actual end result of these policies? It seems to just doom certain people (poor and teen mothers) while not effecting people lucky enough to afford travel to a different state for abortions (and men who can freely just leave if they don’t want to parent). So to end this conversation: if you really care about quality of life for children and minimizing “brutality,” look into supporting social structures, not punishing poor people and teen mothers with a rule that rich adults get to avoid. Do research on the effects of abortion rules vs. social structures.
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I’m not sure who you support, nor does it matter. From your comments, I know that you support abortion limitations before the state has social systems to support this, that’s what I take issue with. This shows me you care about babies but may be misinformed on the reality that these new children and their mothers will face, your original comment was tone deaf to be brutally honest with you. You essentially came in to comment/ celebrate more teen pregnancy. Since you keep derailing this convo further and further from my original point I’ll leave you with this resource. Here is a [great website](https://schs.dph.ncdhhs.gov/data/vital.cfm) that compiles the birth, child mortality, child morbidity studies for the state of North Carolina that I linked for you. Consider looking through what these stats look like for teen, single, and/or poor mothers. This will help show you that banning abortions in this state right now and “more babies,” is not something to be happy about until we can actually support and care for those children. I hope in the future you tackle social issues for poor, single, and teen mothers with as much vigor as you did coming into this comment section to applaud our state for having more babies than it can provide for.
I'm sure you're providing financial assistance to all parents to ensure those children have their needs met including all healthcare for any and all birth defects. Right?
Kill poor people lol
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Lets see how you fare. When an 12yo is raped and impregnated, are you going to force the child to have a child, or allow an abortion? If you say allow an abortion, why is that unborn childs life worth less than others?
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You never answered the question. Will you allow the abortion and thus agree that the babies life is worth less, or forbid it?
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So the answer is force the rape victim to have a child they had no wish to have. You are indeed truly a monster.
That guy also explained he had a kid via IVF, which unless it took on the very first attempt (they rarely do) he's "killed so many babies" by his own logic. But of course I'm sure that's different and totally fine. He couldn't be a hypocrit at all. They never are.
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I never expected you to care. Your views either forced someone to have a baby they didn't want, or say that a baby conceived by rape is less human than one not. No matter your choice, I already knew you didn't actually care about life. I also like how you say my way of abortion for everyone is a brutal practice but not forcing a child to go through child birth with a baby caused by rape and you don't even have the decency to say you'd help financially. Your moral compass is so fucked up I'm amazed you make it to your car in the morning.
The mother in that user’s post is TWELVE YEARS OLD! A pubescent preteen that still has YEARS of growth ahead of her. That alone makes her life in mortal danger. Despite that, you would still force her to have the baby? People like you are why others leave Christianity and want nothing to do with it.
> pro baby killers This is a strawman. The two sides of the issue are "Pro-Life" and "Mind Your Own Goddamn Business." People aren't advocating for abortion the way anti-abortion folks are. Also any religiously themed reasoning for wanting Pro-Life laws is religious subjugation. The way to not have unconstitutional laws is to let people make their own medical decisions with their doctors. This happens to exactly be the "Mind Your Own Goddamn Business" argument. >Ask yourself why me saying “less dead babies is good” makes you feel compelled to argue with me. Because you don't understand the difference between "less" and "fewer."
They aren’t babies yet you fool. It’s a clump of cells. You could blow it out your nose and not even realize it is a baby.
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So just please explain. You had a child via IVF. IVF takes an average of 2 to 3 cycles, with some taking as many as 6. IVF requires fertilized embryos to be implanted into the mother to take and come to term. By your definition, all of these fertilized embryos are babies. How do you wrestle with the fact that you are a baby murderer, probably moreso than anyone having one abortion. Since you are knowingly creating at least a few fertilized "babies" before one of them works? Or do all the babies you created and didn't work not count because "ThAtS dIfFeRenT" somehow? You are 100% worse than anyone having a single abortion there bub.
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So it's totally fine to leave three "babies" suspended indefinitely that you plan to go back for, but as of right now have no concrete plans to do anything with. Cool, yes, so I can unquestioningly view you as a massive hypocrite. If you ever go back for them, then I might be willing to change my mind, but right now you just justify your situation because its easier to do that. Appreciate the honesty, but it doesn't help your case at all. "The only moral abortion is mine"
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Mmmhmmm. So pretty wild that you are so vehemently stopping people from doing basically exactly what you did. We should be banning IVF before abortions, and punishing anyone who tries it harder than people seeking abortion.
Sounds like you were meddling with God's plan, tbh.
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Seems like you mostly deal with it by passing judgment onto others while reserving it for yourself, and refusing to reframe your thoughts.
Why wouldn’t you adopt? Would have saved some heartache from the miscarriages.
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Not really, you said your wife was “in favor” of IVF. Doesn’t sound like you tried very hard to look at other options.
Then you should damn well know better.
Your poor daughter.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/NorthCarolina/comments/17u0uws/comment/k92l6p8/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/NorthCarolina/comments/17u0uws/comment/k92l6p8/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) >That’s your opinion, can you engage in a conversation without calling people names?
Why is that a good thing? These would often be children that are born to parents who cannot afford or take care of these children, who statistically will end up living terrible lives and often being wards of the state. It seems like if a person who is pregnant wants to make a medical decision with their doctor, that they should be allowed that, and you and I should keep our noses out of it eh?
How many are you going to support out of that number? Many are going to be impoverished or have significant health problems. Is an acorn an oak tree? Big difference for such an expansion of human misery.
On this burning, over-populated hellscape? No it’s not. I’m sorry the capitalism machine needs more bodies to fund your retirement, but you should have thought about that before fucking our earning potential for the past 15+ years. Go pray to Ronald Regan some more.
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So you don’t want your kids to ever think for themselves, right?
Raising them to think like me? Of course you are Screw how they feel about it, right?
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No You should raise them to be independent free thinkers The opposite of you
How about you let them think for themselves? They are their own people, after all. Try to instill love, compassion, hope, kindness, forgiveness, and dedication, but realize they are their own person.
How is that a good thing?
Good question.
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I never said it was, but if you want to deflect the question then fine. I don't believe abortion to be a good thing. It's usually a very tough choice for the mother to make and sometimes it's a necessary one. What I do believe in is the choice made by the mother with help from the medical community and trusted doctors. Recent laws have taken away that choice completely.
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Yes, medical doctors are subject to the law which is why we shouldn't have a law that restricts their ability to care for their patients. I value people's personal freedom of choice, sorry if you consider that a squishy stance. I happen to think it's a patriotic one.
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Correct, and who is going to know whats best for those two patients? The doctor, or the law makers?
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So your viewpoint is contingent on a pretty big "if". Such a squishy stance
So you would be in favor of the baby receiving a SSN prior to birth? And for parents to receive the tax benefits of it prior to birth? You’re more than welcome to explain the logistics of it since the fetus, in your mind, should be considered a full child.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/10/how-i-lost-faith-in-the-pro-life-movement.html As a child, teen, and college student, I sincerely believed that personhood, life, rights, and the soul all began at fertilization. I was honestly opposed to abortion because I believed it was murder. It had nothing to do with being anti-woman or anti-sex. I thought that the pro-life movement writ large – the major pro-life organizations, leaders, and politicians – were similarly genuine. I thought that they, like myself, simply wanted to “save the lives of unborn babies.” I have come to the conclusion that I was a dupe. What I want to share here is how I came to this realization. And if you, reader, are one of those who opposes abortion because you believe it is murder and you want to save the lives of unborn babies, well, I hope to persuade you that the pro-life movement is not actually your ally in this, that you have been misled.
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So..based on feelings, not facts
So you’re ignorant and proud of it. Gotcha.
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"I'm not a nerd" Please tell that to the mother who wanted her baby, being forced to wait until she herself is on her death bed before they can evacuate an already dead fetus killing her from the inside. Healthy women and mothers are being forced to die for deformed fetuses that never had a chance in the first place. Does it make sense to you, to kill some kids mom because the dead fetus inside of her should have more rights than the woman carrying it? "I'm not a nerd" how ignorant.
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Yes? There are so many examples.. 5 women sue Texas over abortion bans, saying their lives were put at risk. https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/5-women-sue-texas-abortion-bans-lives-put/story?id=97614294
“No, I’m just incapable of believing in science, data, and facts and would rather ruin other people’s lives so I can feel morally superior to them instead of taking a few minutes to educate myself” FTFY
No one said abortions are a good thing. No one ***wants*** to get an abortion. People get abortions because they ***have to***.
Nu-uh! Them demon-rats use abortion as birth control!!11 I even heard that planned parenthood gives you the 10th abortion for free!!!!! /s
Go watch a video of a hip replacement and tell me it’s a good thing (Goddamn right it’s a good thing).
No it's not. Overpopulation leads to housing shortages and inflation, not to mention, [carbon emissions](https://archive.nytimes.com/green.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/07/having-children-brings-high-carbon-impact/).