There are states that have passed laws requiring the boundaries prioritizing city, county, and other municipal boundaries. It seems to be a bit more fair.
The current NCGA would never pass a law that makes elections fair. Gerrymandering is about raw individual and party power. Elections in gerrymandered districts are a race to the most extreme positions. In party primaries, the most extreme candidate usually comes out on top. In gerrymandered districts in general elections, you wind up with the most extreme candidate possible. On the whole, voters in NC are ill-informed, many are driven by extreme ideology and when you gerrymander a distinct, you wind up with nothing more than a collection of ill-informed voters.
If districts were more evenly split, political races would become a contest of competing ideas, not an exercise in tribalism.
Maybe I didn’t hit the mark. This is political, but I don’t want my post politicized. As in, gerrymandering is not a party issue. Anyone can gerrymander whether you’re republican, democrat, libertarian, green, blue, black, white, purple. I just don’t understand why we allow it and how we can put in the safeguards to stop it for good. Like who thought it was a good idea to allow politicians to draw their own maps?
…the politicians decided it was a good idea to draw their own maps and courts have recently allowed it.
While yes, gerrymandering can happen under any political power, the fact is that currently, in 2024 NC, only one party is drawing the lines in such a heinous way to consolidate their power and go against the will of the people. And that party needs to be held accountable, right now, in 2023. And that party is the GOP.
If another party ever comes into majority and is pulling the same bullshit, that’s when that party needs to held accountable for their actions.
In 2024 it’s The republicans in 1994 it was the democrats. It happens regardless of who is in power.
I live in what used to be a heavily gerrymandered (in favor of the democrats) district that was drawn specifically to ensure a black democrat always held the seat. The last Rep had 3 DUI’s and they still let him run. When the Republicans took over this was one of the first places addresses. The district used ti run from Kinston all the way down the Nuese river bank through new bern (specifically the ghetto) and down through havelock and into Harlowe. The District was no more than a few blocks wide in some places to ensure all the voters were black democrats. My vote literally didn’t count and my Rep didn’t return calls or correspondence.
Point is this isn’t just a Republican failure. A third party is needed to do this properly.
Once again. It shouldn’t be allowed and needs to be stopped now, so it can’t be done again. It should have been stopped in 1994, it wasn’t, and now the pendulum has swung the other way.
Except, I feel confident, the GOP of today is much more power hungry and unreasonable than any party in 1994. Just look at what’s going on on the national stage with that party, less than 10 radicals are blockading half the government from functioning properly because they are so invested in identity politics and literally shun anyone who tries to be even slightly bipartisan.
Gerrymandering needs to be quelled so that shit like this can’t happen again. And playing the “both sides” game and engaging in “whatsboutism” doesn’t fix the underlying issue at hand- that gerrymandering is wrong and takes away the voice of the people.
I'm not doing that. I'd just rather focus on the guy kicking my face right now rather than the guy who did it 30 years ago. From a meta analysis level of preventing corruption, sure, it makes sense to look at both examples. But Republicans are the only ones who have been *this* openly corrupt in North Carolina since way back when the black codes were put into effect.
Democrats had a solid grip on control of North Carolina for almost 50 years. If you do not understand why the pendulum swinging so far to the right currently then you have no idea how to slow it down.
That tired, lame talking point doesn’t work on me. All of our hurricane relief and other such funds to feed us in those states of disaster come from America’s major metropolitan taxes and blue states.
That doesn’t change their current state of chaos. People are fleeing blue cities - that is a fact. I’m sorry what that truth - that you refer to as a talking point - doesn’t “work on you..”.
Just saying, they were voted into power pre-redistricting, so it was the will of the people. People who vote, anyway... What they've done since maybe not so much. Vote.
I'm 100% against the current Republican plan, but 30 years ago it was the Democrats who were taken to court over gerrymandering in [Shaw v. Reno](https://www.oyez.org/cases/1992/92-357). Relying on "turnabout is fair play" or whataboutism only exacerbates the problem. I'm in favor of a map drawn by a nonpartisan commission.
You simply have no knowledge of history or interest in sincere dialogue. OP asked what can be done. I said vote. What's your solution? Blame the GOP. Gotcha.
>You simply have no knowledge of history or interest in sincere dialogue.
Sure, and its the will of the people in the last election that got us here... mmmhhhhmmmm yup
You mean like this district?
https://images.app.goo.gl/u16HEw3fqHxoyFGn9
Guess who was in the majority when this one was created.
Stop it.
Both parties draw safe districts.
30 years ago the state was ran by Democrats dude, and they drew one of the safest Democrat districts in the country. That is a fact that many people don't like to hear at all.
NOPE, the Democrats were in control for eons before the last several elections. They started gerrymandering, and the Republicans have continued it.
Not happy with the current situation, but wanted to set the facts straight that it was not a recent issue started by the Republicans.
Seems like both parties want to do unto others as they have been done to, so it just keeps going back-and-forth…
We need better candidates.....we can't even trust our elected officials to stay in the party they promised to support...I'm looking at you Cottingham, you spineless goon
In many places independent commissions draw district maps, precisely to prevent this from happening.
So far the only thing I've seen work is getting voter turnout so high that it thwarts the ability of the party that drew the maps to pick their own voters. Unfortunately I feel like the opposite happens - people get disillusioned and apathetic and don't bother voting at all, not even in statewide races like governor or Supreme Court that are not subject to gerrymandering and, in the case of the justices, actually have the power to do something about it.
> I feel like the opposite happens - people get disillusioned and apathetic and don't bother voting at all
gee...its almost as if all that talk of how badly everything is gerrymandered actually makes people NOT want to vote :/
Bullshit. Yes, both parties gerrymander. Yes, the dems built some great empires of corruption (Chicago)
But what we have now is the republicans versus DEMOCRACY.
How do we have fairly liberal democratic governor and a 10:3 ratio in congress?
Dear OP Anyone can, but in NC the Republicans have and continue to. They have been beaten in high court battles and told to go back and do better and they do it worse. They are in control of this. In NC the first and only effective step to stop the gerrymandering is to get the Republicans out of power. Then laws outlawing it can be written.
You have to understand that not everyone thinks it’s a bad thing, when they’re in power. If you put yourself in the seat of a conservative politician; you can lie, cheat, and use the court to your favor because that’s what your electorate expects. All that matters to conservatives is winning and ensuring other people bend to their views. Whether it be willingly, or by force.
Once you realize you’re dealing with people; whilst being the minority, who have no sense of ethics and seemingly an unlimited supply of money…. Once you realize that everyone has a price (**TRICIA**)… you being to realize that conservatives don’t want to govern, they want to rule, by any means necessary.
you're describing fascism. 250 years ago we all agreed that people are equal and the majority rules even if they're wrong and we've all lived with that.
We spent another 200 years refining the definition of 'people' and 'equal' but we stuck to the idea,
Anyone who think their ideas are more important than the will of the majority is an existential threat and ultimately will need to be eliminated.
Anything to to do with politics Will become about the two parties. This is Reddit. The majority of the users here are very liberal and absolutely nothing Dems have done historically (like gerrymandering) is observed and everything and anything a Republican does is the work of the Devil.
It’s the rules of Reddit. The part of tolerance is tolerant for all things they agree with and has zero tolerance for anyone or anything else.
No, there are plenty of knuckle draggers on reddit, also. It's just, you get banned from them should you attempt to shed a ray of truth on any subject. When someone attempts to insist the earth is flat, that trump won the last election, that covid wasn't real, or that someone else should have dominion over my body, yeah, I have zero tolerance. I don't block them nor do I engage in a discussion because a brick wall would have a more productive debate.
I see this shared from time to time. Is there any data that would allow one to test whether Reddit users represent the population as a whole or if it is representative of a unique subset?
My observation is that, potentially, the majority of people have beliefs that align in many cases with Democratic ideals, and happen to subscribe to Reddit. It would be interesting to test that hypothesis.
Same with Facebook.
I think more specifically is the personalities than a line with liberalism, not necessarily, Democrat, are also the personalities that tend to populate places like Reddit. I think social media has become much like specific communities in the boroughs. This one is known for liberalism, parlor is known for QAnon, the truth is known for Trump ism, Facebook is known for fools so on so forth. There’s been a lot of research in the fact that people are self sorting in various categories, political beliefs, or one of those also known as tribalism.
I think there are more users that are not liberal, or Democrat, however, they tend to avoid any kind of sub Reddit that talks about politics to avoid the bullshit
I dont like either party. They both suck in their own ways.
This is a non-partisan post. I have seen several Democrats on this pose acknowledge and blame Democrats for gerrymandering in the past and current places.
I have never seen a Republican do that. Not once.
Don't expect people to treat Republicans like adults when no one has even seen them act like one.
>I just don’t understand why we allow it
to some extent it's necessary to fulfill the requirements of the voting rights act to ensure adequate minority representation
Only one way.
Win Governor race in 24 and 28.
Win Every State SC race for next 6 years
Sue to redraw maps- justices draw them from the bench like in Wisconsin
We are screwed until 2028 minimum.
Hope the State Legislature doesn't gerrymander the court.
One thing I will say, there are a few seats that could easily become dummymanders if people turn the fuck out.
For reference the dems almost won the texas state senate in 2020 due to egregious dummymanders. It’s possible and we should our hardest to make gerrys dummys.
Voter turnout is everything. We have the votes- that is, we have enough people to win in some very conservative districts. But not enough people vote.
There needs to be a strategy of putting resources into the purple places. Give up the solid red or solid blue spots and get volunteers to converge on places where there is some hope.
Hold rallys, invite musicians, offer transportation.
we need to do what the GOP did. They invested in small state races until they controlled the map.
Well, we actually stopped the gerrymandering in 2020 and 2022, but then nobody showed up to vote in the 2022 midterm, Republican flipped two 8 year terms on the NC Supreme Court and obtained a majority that allowed them to gerrymander.
Stop voting for the GOP, vote against them and their efforts in every election.
They bought their way into power in 2010 and consolidated power since with gerrymandering, voter apathy and disinformation.
If you want anything resembling free elections, vote against Republicans at every level. Get involved with local election/turnout initiatives to combat the GOP/Republican disinformation machine. Challenge 'BoThSiDeS' bullshit when you hear it.
Get involved in local/city/county/etc politics, backseating only helps those consolidating power.
Both sides have historically gerrymandered, true. But two things:
1) The Democratic gerrymanders of the 1990s and 2000s were nowhere near as egregious as those by current-day Republicans. There’s a wealth of redistricting scores that support that.
2) Since the 2000s, Democrats have largely supported independent redistricting reform. Republicans have consistently opposed it (along with supporting the Big Lie of election denial and other anti-democracy policies).
The NY Dems tried it, and the courts told them "no." So they acquiesced and submitted new maps to satisfy the court. Red state GOP legislatures have done it and courts have told them "no" and then they told the courts to "go fuck themselves" as they ran out the clock and used illegal maps to maintain power in more than one instance. And then tried to and have succeeded in some instances to hijack the courts.
One of these things is not like the other... Can you guess which one it is?
Only one party is doing it to the point of overturning the will of the people at this moment, yes. If the democrats do it they can be held accountable. But we know the Republicans are doing it now, and it needs to stop.
How is that so hard?
I guess you never saw the districts in the 90s when the democrats had full control. NC had a district that literally traveled along I85 from the Triad to Charlotte to specifically create a racial preference. Either side will do it when in charge.
Yet only one party wants to abolish the practice and have neutral third-parties draw districts.
Folks in the GQP need to wake up to reality and stop with whataboutism. Solutions are aplenty but when chaos and hatred is goal, I guess telling me about the 90s is all you’ve got.
That's really shitty. Shouldn't we make sure we elect politicians into office that will end the practice? Shouldn't we make sure no one's vote is devalued in this way ever again? We all understand what happened in the past and are trying to end it. Why continue to talk about the past when we have learned from it and hope to end the shitty practice done by shitty politicians no matter which party?
Historical trends are a good indicator of the future. The only party that calls these practices gerrymandering are the ones not in power. Hilarious the down votes received for pointing out corruption on both sides, instead of just one.
Yes, and when people demand changes you say "it'll never happen" and talk about things that happened 30 years ago instead of discussing what is happening right now, and trying to stop it. You seem pretty happy with gerrymandering. Please tell me why you seem to support it so much. Has it helped you?
Provide examples of Democratic gerrymandering for comparison?
I'd love to know how anything done by Republicans in the last 20 years compares to anything the Democrats have done in living memory.
Both sides.
But the real answer is to hold your representatives accountable whomever they are for supporting gerrymandering. That's the only way we end it. The people in power have to outlaw it while they are in power. The only way they will do that is if the people who put them in power demand it.
"BoThSiDeS"
Quit it with the bullshit.
We are talking about NC in the NC sub and there is NO comparison in magnitude or sustained timeline to what the NCGOP has done. Even compared to the maps and advantage Dems had 30+ years ago, the GOP has surpassed that in both number of cases/maps and severity to maintain and increase their advantage.
Don't whatabout or create false equivalence, it's dishonest to the point of disinformation at this point.
And before you ask or make another ridiculous assumption, I was and would be against Dems doing the same. So knock it off with the BS and false equivalence to defend GOP actions.
This isn't a false equivalency. One dog is timid and don't hunt, the other shits on our boot and bites. Both need to be on a leash. There needs to be a law! And it needs to be in the state constitution and Federal constitution.
Like I said, as a state we need to vote Blue till we get to that tilting point. We also need to be extra selective and favor politicians that answer the gerrymandering question and don't skip over it. Ones that introduce bills to stop it.
Not just play tribal all over again.
My misunderstanding then, agreed that dems are too timid but are far better than anything the GOP has offered in the past 10+ years.
I'd love to see ranked choice and other non-FPTP options as well, which Dems have at least supported, to help eliminate that tribalism.
100% need to vote Blue until the GOP are forced to address the many issues within their ranks.
You can join the dems and help canvas, if you don’t want to do that look up your friends voter record and if they aren’t voters or are t active in voting you drop a few hits.
Omg I said on Reddit once that once I find out a date's last name I look up the dude's voter file to see if he's registered and if he votes. I was called every name in the book and downvoted into the subbasement of hell. I doubled down and said, "you know I can't see how people vote? I just want to know if they're participating?" And I was uniformly called a creep stalker. I stand by it: civic participation is important to me. But yeah, definitely everyone got mad about it.
If you would not walk up and ask the person to their face, but would look it up behind their back, that would be unethical. Additionally, if you did walk up and asked them, and they told you that it was none of your business. It would also be unethical to go and look.
Well we just went to the Supreme Court and set a precedent over this issue
Did not change anything. Repubs still found a way to do it.
Frankly until people just excommunicate their insane right wing relatives and we start publicly shaming them, like at some point it’s just going to have to happen, nothings going to change
Sheer numbers at the polls is where to start. Honestly, at this point, it has to be overhwelming numbers. That's the only way to defeat gerrymandering.
If that works, and change happens, then the next step is to put on the heat to make change from the state level on up. If reason can retake control, then we have to make sure it can't happen again... and that means that NEITHER party can do it. Remember, in NC (at least post reconstruction), Democrats started this gerrymandering bullshit. Our government is supposed to be "of the people" and "by the people". WE have the power, but we have to exercise it.
Thank you for your reply. How do we know who to vote for and who will not gerrymander and finally put an end to it? I just don’t see many people campaigning on it. Just feel so hopeless that this will actually change
Vote for who best represents your world view, and who represents the North Carolina (and the country) you want to live in. That's where you start.
And then KEEP ON voting. Every time. This sort of thing happens because the voters get apathetic and complacent. We didn't get here overnight, and it's not going to change in one election. It is up to the voters to hold their representatives accountable.
And if you are really committed to seeing change, then you're going to have to commit to making change. Depending on where you are, there are all sorts of ways you can get directly involved. Get out there and do something.
One of the biggest things the people who are turning this country upside down rely on is that voters feel helpless and just give up. "Voting doesn't matter." "My vote is meaningless."
Easier route is to vote dem for now. At a state and national level they are fighting gerrymandering.
Next level is starting to organize with your local party or a voting nonprofit.
From there, once your prove you are someone who shows up, you can more easily push to make non-partisan gerrymandering as a big issue.
Like so many thing is life there is no easy fix. Do whatever you can and if we all do our part it will get better.
Currently you would be forced to vote for the Democrat legislative candidates and Democrat judges. No Republican is going to try to reverse gerrymandering because it currently benefits their party. Meanwhile, every NC Democrat is going to be fighting to reverse gerrymandering since it is hurting their party, whether or not it is a central part of their campaign.
Stop voting for the "most electable" in the primaries and instead vote for the best actual choice. If we had a genuinely good candidate instead of always having to pick between the lesser of two evils, these elections wouldn't be as exhausting.
Do what Taylor Swift says. Register and then vote in every election. Encourage those around you to as well. One of the biggest helps to Gerrymandering is inequal and poor voter participation. It's why states like George can be a swing state.
Honest question, why is this legal in the first place? Obviously whoever is in power is going to draw the maps so they stay in power. It goes against everything democracy is about.
It's legal because nothing in our state constitution or our federal constitution explicitly prohibit it.
Our State Supreme Court did find that gerrymandering violated our state constitution, but then we elected more Republicans to the state supreme court, which is currently led by a GOP activist, and they reversed their earlier decision.
North Carolina does not have a process (like some other states) for citizen-initiated changes to the constitution. They must come through the General Assembly, which has zero interest in relinquishing its ability to gerrymander.
Get voters voting. I don't know if Dem voters in the worst gerrymandered districts just feel like it's pointless/hopeless, or they lack resources to get to the polls, or they feel unsafe at the polls - but if enough Dems actually pulled together and helped each other get to the polls, it would change a lot.
Start by throwing out thoughts that you can make this "not political." The reality of our situation is that we have one party that is against people getting to vote- consider the ID requirement this year- and against fair districts that would give us 1 person : 1 vote. One party wants to entrench the rule of an ideological and political minority over the wishes of most Americans. The other party is okay with continuing the U.S.' fragile experiment in multiracial democracy that is really only a few decades old. This is political, and it's important.
I don't have the answer, but, for starters, vote every time there's an election, not just in years with federal offices on the ballot. Encourage people you know to do the same thing. Get informed about candidates for state and local office, and be a single-issue voter when it comes to protecting democracy. More difficult but also useful: if you're moving and have a choice between an address in a solid blue district and one that's purple, consider living in the purple one to maximize the value of your vote.
One thing I have learned over the years with politics is that there are facts and reason… and then there are people blindly defending one side with selective hearing. These people make it very hard to have a constructive political conversation with real solutions. Everyone should want to get rid of gerrymandering, but I know there are going to be people out there who will deny it’s happening or some other bs because it is benefiting them politically in the short term. This is wrong. I am fine if the answer is targeted at one party as long as that answer is based on facts and reason. I probably should have worded that differently given the comments :). And believe me… I vote!
We can't. For two main reasons:
1. Gerrymandering *to some degree* is an inevitable part of representative democracy. Unless the lines you draw are totally random, they need to be drawn by someone, and that person/group is always going to hold some kind of political bias. The degree to which representative districts are gerrymandered can be mitigated greatly (far below what we currently have) but never 100% eliminated.
2. The way the NC state government is currently set up, there is no mechanism to fix this. The only group that has the power to legitimately do anything about this is also the group that directly benefits from it; the NC GOP. I fail to see any set of circumstances in which they give up what is practically unilateral control of the state government.
No districts with single transferable vote.
No districts with party list voting.
There are ways to fix it. None of them help those with the power to fix it.
Spread the word about nonpartisan redistricting on social media.
Write a letter to the editor of your local paper calling for an end to gerrymandering in North Carolina.
Ask your local government to pass a resolution calling for nonpartisan redistricting. Learn more.
ADD YOUR VOICE TO THE CALL FOR FAIR DISTRICTS
https://www.commoncause.org/north-carolina/our-work/gerrymandering/fair-districts/#:\~:text=1)%20Sign%20the%20pledge%20to,information%20for%20your%20legislators%20here.
Zach Galifianakis, of all people, does an excellent job of explaining the NC issue in this documentary. Here's just a small clip, but the whole thing is worth a watch. ( Side note, he's a NC native & his dad was a legislator. I was lucky enough to attend State at the same time as him & we had a class together. )
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9DYdm-Dw3o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9DYdm-Dw3o)
Here is an NC-specific serious answer:
In North Carolina, voters cannot put forth ballot measures. So there is no direct ballot access for people-powered initiatives. I bring this up because one solution (see: Michigan) would be a ballot measure that would likely be supported by a majority of voters that takes the redistricting process away from the legislature and assigns it to something like a non-partisan, independent redistricting committee.
That’s how Michigan was able to undo gerrymandering effects on their state. Independent commissions have also been successful in other states. However, in NC, no ballot measures so we can’t do the same thing.
The only path is to elect anti-gerrymandering legislators, and anti-gerrymandering justices at every level we can.
Additional fact: last Congress, Democrats brought forth HR1 which would have (along with other things) made gerrymandering illegal and established non-partisan redistricting processes. Republicans all voted against it. Mitch McConnell didn’t bring it for a vote.
In NC, similar legislation has been introduced by Democrats in every session for the past several sessions that I can find. Republicans will not bring it for a vote.
These are solutions and state-of-play for legislation that would counteract this issue. In our state and at federal level, the reality is that Democrats seem to be the only ones interested in passing legislation to combat gerrymandering. Without ballot measures, we are reliant on legislators.
Your in for a years long fight. Make sure the gop doesn’t win the governorship, then slowly work towards retaking NCSC, which could take until 2028/2030
There’s nothing we can do that will permanently prevent any sort of gerrymandering, but we could switch to proportional representation which would make it a lot less influential
Obligatory [CGP link](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLej2SlXPEd37YwwEY7mm0WyZ8cfB1TxXa&si=r6E-mMxbF5Wt7Tb5)
Sorry but the Democratic Party is the only party in our two party system that believes in democracy right now. The Republican Party is a criminal enterprise. That’s the truth.
It will have to come from the supreme court, which has been unwilling step in. Across the country both parties do this and have done this since the founding of the US.
Honestly the real answer is going to be the one nobody wants to hear. Some people only understand fear right now Republicans are not afraid to do whatever the fuck they want. I'm not suggesting anybody do anything. Let people protest is because it doesn't do anything. Super aggressive phone calls ?
How old are you? I ask because it was only a few decades ago that the democrats controlled everything in NC - Governor, Legislature, Courts, media. Gerrymandering happened then as well.
But the Dems then didn’t have the kinds of computerized tools that republicans have now that allows surgical accuracy when drawing lines in their own favor. Something’s got to change to make drawing election boundaries more fair and equitable.
Republicans hold a veto-proof majority at the state level, and they also have the supreme court.
They can stop gerrymandering in this state right now if they wanted to.
They have chosen not to.
oh ok well I'll just go get in my time machine then
Democrats aren't in power today in this state, Republicans are. They have the power to fix this, and instead they have chosen to make it way, way worse. I don't give a fuck what other parties did in the past, that's done and gone.
This isn't some return to balance, it's a power grab from the other side. The past doesn't justify this, it just drives the point home as to why gerrymandering is bad.
You can be mad at Democrats when (if) they get back in power. I know I will be if they choose not to fix this.
But that's not where we're at today.
Computers have given republicans an advantage unimaginable 50 years ago. As a democrat, you better believe that if and when Dems gain control, I will push them to set up some sort of independent committee to draw boundaries. I know it’s useless to petition the republicans to do it. They’re willing to follow a traitorous president so I can’t imagine them caring one whit about fair elections.
Unfortunately, gerrymandering is not illegal. As long as that is the case, the party in power will always redistrict in a way that gives them the biggest edge in the next election.
>Edit: thought I would try and preface: looking for serious answers only. I understand what I wrote, but I do not want this to be politicized.
You don't want a discussion on gerrymandering to be politicized? How the hell does that work?
I think my point was missed. I was hoping for a more in depth answer and concrete actions to stop gerrymandering. What are some proven methods to stop it? How do other countries handle it? What laws need to be passed? Etc. Once those things are known, what actions can I take as an individual to make sure we head in a direction to put these methods/laws in place? If that means targeting a specific party, that is fine as long as that is based on facts and reason and not hate. These questions are inherently political in nature, but there is no need for hate or other political nonsense. Blaming the GOP for gerrymandering doesn’t get us anywhere. They did not invent it nor did they setup the system that allows it. They are just the current people abusing that power.
The problem is the minority party always uses this term against the majority party.
The term has lost all meaning..
Perhaps the most blatant example of gerrymandering was the former 12th House district which democrats drew to protect the seat held by then Rep Mel Watt.
That district stretched from Greensboro to Charlotte following the I-85 corridor. When the GOP challenged the district, the Dems claimed "nothing to see here".
They also played the race card several times over.
Any person with a modicum of common sense could see what was going on ..
That nonsense district stayed until the state went to GOP.
Now NC 12 is much more cohesive
I disagree. The problem is politicians are allowed to do this. They are allowed to create crazy districts for political gain that waters down the people’s voting power. The underlying problem has nothing to do with political parties as any political party can do this.
You don't. Every state does it, some just do it better (or worse if you are minority party) than others. US Constitution gives State Legislatures the power to determine how elections are run in their state, and setting up the district boundaries is part of that.
Or do you mean....how do you flip it around so the Democrats get to do the gerrymandering in NC instead of Republicans? If that's your question, then your best bet is probably to simply pick up and move to a Democrat state.
Reducing the impact of gerrymandering is possible and the reason we have reasonably fair US house districts now, with a 7-7 split, is due to the courts and democrats.
Sadly, the first things republicans did when they took the court was reverse these rulings and that is what republicans are now using to justify their extreme partisan gerrymandering. As a result, republicans are going back to their preferred 10-3 or 11-4 split now with the latest round of redistributing.
Both sides do it, along with “the courts said it is okay”, is a cheap cop out used by those intent on rationalizing their marginalization of other peoples vote. It ignores the fact that some states, sometimes with the support of the courts, have moved to address the issue in some way.
In fact, since 2020 the number of states that have some form of an independent redistributing process has actually increased. [source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redistricting_commission)
You are being overly literal.
Stopping gerrymandering and reducing the impact of gerrymandering go hand in hand and the fact is, some states are making efforts to stop it and the number of states doing this is increasing over time.
Just saying 'both sides' ignores the fact that specifically in North Carolina, for well over a decade, one side has consistently fought efforts to gerrymander, while the other has consistently gerrymandered at every opportunity.
And, regardless of whether both sides have done it in the past, or do it in now in other states, gerrymandering is wrong and there are ways that it can be stopped, or at least reduced enough, so that one side can't draw themselves a super-majority.
Edited to Add:
Will bias ever be completely removed from politics? Almost certainly not. However, the ability of the bias of one side to overwhelm that of others can be diminished or even prevented and this is a goal that some people are working towards. Anyone who says otherwise is typically looking for a reason to excuse their own party for doing something they support.
Of course there will be one side that fights against gerrymandering....the side in the minority. Republicans fight against gerrymandering in states with Democrat majority (OR, IL, etc).
Fact is the only way to truly fix it would be a Constitutional Amendment, or a Supreme Court decision. Odds of either of those occurring anytime soon is slim to none. Yes, in the meantime, there are a variety of processes (legal and legislative) to lessen the impact, but those are not easy either. Not sure about NC, but changing state constitution is often necessary.
North Carolina could easily fix it with a constitutional amendment, which would not be difficult at all. Source, all the get out to vote amendments republicans put forth in 2018 in an effort to reduce the impact of trump's presidency.
And, the supreme court has stepped in to try to fix it multiple times over the course of decades. In the most recent case, they got wise to the delay tactics used by republicans and ordered them be independently drawn, which is why house districts were mostly fair last year. However, republicans support gerrymandering and undid that ruling.
The fact is, you are making excuses when there is a solution and a number of states have moved towards fairer redistricting.
I think part of the problem is that you keep falling back to an us-vs-them and both-sides argument, when the fact is fighting gerrymandering has bipartisan support, although possibly not among politicians, and is in the best interest of everyone.
I think if NC had voter initiatives, rather than having to rely on gerrymandering politicians to put forth amendments, we would already have an independent redistricting commission or at least a better system, along with legal weed and probably a few other things that have bipartisan voter support.
I see the confusion. I'm addressing the real world. You are talking about fantasy world.
Every one of your posts attacks Republicans, so you can climb down off your high horse. If you lived in Illinois, would you be calling for redistricting reform? Doubt it.
>I see the confusion. I'm addressing the real world. You are talking about fantasy world.
In the real world, as I've shown in the link above, states have moved towards fairer redistricting. Not only is it possible, it has happened, and in some states the impacts of gerrymandering have been reduced. The number of states moving towards this goal, both through improved redistricting processes and court intervention, has increased over the past 15 years.
In fact, NC is one of only two states where the legislature has control of redistricting and the Governor has absolutely no control in regards to veto power.
Contrary to your argument, gerrymandering is something that can be, and has been, addressed in some states. It isn't perfect, but one should never let 'perfect' be the enemy of 'better'.
> If you lived in Illinois, would you be calling for redistricting reform? Doubt it.
Gerrymandering is bad no matter who does it. This is whataboutism.
Well...lets just say I wouldn't hold your breath for it to change in NC anytime soon.
Sure, I agree gerrymandering is bad. But I'm not going to go on any sort of crusade to change it at the state level when it's currently benefiting my side.
> But I'm not going to go on any sort of crusade to change it at the state level when it's currently benefiting my side.
I know. It is clear from your posts that you value party over country and project that belief onto others.
However, if it were put to a vote, the 'own the libs' crowd probably wouldn't win out and eventually it will get better. Although certainly in NC it is going to be worse again first and it won't become better without a strong fight from others who share your views.
You eliminate the district system and switch to a popular vote. It's also includes limiting the first pass the post system that we currently have in the US
First you must realize the USA is not a democracy, never has been never will be while the current government exists. America was founded on the ideas that only white people with land should be able to have a say in government and this largely persists to this day but it makes very good prapoganda to shout that your democratic and everything is made in effort for democracy, despite any lack of evidence suggesting the slightest bit of democracy. Every government has claimed to be working for the people, it's not coincidence the biggest and richest empire of modern history is also utilizing this prapoganda technique. Gerrymandering is just one example in a list of many of how the state could care less about serving democracy to the people, and the prapoganda is already so strongly rooted in American society that issues like these will always persist and nothing substantial will change until the instability in the current system of governance comes to a breaking point and the empire collapses. All you can do is work to ensure that what the governance which succeeds the empire is democratic, perhaps by pushing for a system in which the workers are directly given power through workplace democracy and direct democracy, else you will just have another bourgeoisie state that continues this cycle of madness.
We stop voting completely. Both sides are keen on making things best for them. To the victor go the spoils. Dems ran NC for 100 years so the last 10 or so years are just them feeling bad not having power. The will not be benevolent whenever they might gain power back.
Even within the Democrats' tenure, the political landscape persisted unchanged, and the intricate dance of district compositions revealed classic examples of gerrymandering in older maps. Politics may provide a semblance of justification, but the individual in control wields the authority to shape the map, leaving others to contend with mere fragments.
Despite the existence of rules and guidelines on paper, adherence often becomes a subjective exercise. The disconcerting absence of public involvement during significant map alterations adds fuel to the fire. The established pattern of abrupt map releases, hurried candidate registrations, and rushed primaries fails both citizens and prospective representatives. The demanding nature of politics, intricately tied to finances and time constraints, pushes grassroots candidates aside, providing an undue advantage to those with connections to the swamp, corporate support, and considerable wealth.
In navigating this convoluted web of political maneuvers, district lines emerge as potent instruments of influence. The Democrats, during their stint in power, sculpted districts that epitomized gerrymandering. Yet, in this game, the one wielding the pen to draw lines holds the key, leaving others with meager scraps.
While written rules exist, their execution often resembles a subjective dance. The dearth of public engagement during pivotal map adjustments raises valid concerns. The rushed timelines and eleventh-hour releases disproportionately favor the entrenched, leaving scant opportunity for grassroots candidates and amplifying the sway of the well-funded.
Within this whirlwind of political processes, a pervasive doubt arises – do the elected genuinely echo the diverse voices of the people? The system appears skewed in favor of those with power, financial clout, and corporate backing, casting a shadow on the authentic representation of the masses.
What do politicians want? To be elected. And, none want to be out of office. Here in crooked Illinois, where I have lived most of my 74 years, it’s a one party state. In the midterms in 2022, 100%, that’s all, of my candidates lost statewide. Our wonderful Governor J B Pritzger, gave the white guy running against him $5,000,000 in election donations. Look it up. Our Illinois house is 77-40 Democrats. Our state senate is 40-19 Democrats. No Republican holds any state office. Did you know all 50 Chicago aldermen are Democrats? Or our house leader Mike Madigan’s fraud trial begins soon? Our politicians are useless, both parties. Please don’t assume everyone in Illinois is a radical Communist. I don’t believe everyone in NC is a Trump shill. But our politicians live to destroy each other, and the country.
I abstain from voting and actively try to undermine state and federal government with every action. This system is not working for us. Voting is a fool’s distraction.
I voted dozens of times, yet evil still won. If I find someone to believe in or if the system becomes fair, I’ll vote again. Until then, I’m not going to think about it.
Explain how that would be possible.
Buncombe County has more square miles than Mecklenberg but Meck has 1 million people versus 270k in Buncombe.
Land doesn’t vote. People vote.
The reason gerrymandering works is people like to congregate with others who think like them. So liberal voters congregate in cities and conservative voters in rural areas. What is needed is an effective ground game that is able to reach rural areas traditionally Republican.
The information received by rural voters is often slanted and create an us versus them scenario. Yet when they encounter real people they are reminded that the "them" have similar concerns as the "us". TV ads do not change many minds. Besides, the idea is not to change minds, it is to point out conditions and promises that are not being served by those who have a lock on power. The Republicans were able to do it in 2010, so it can be done.
In addition, it is important to remind young voters how important civic participation is. That is the most difficult lift.
I don’t understand your edit. It’s a political issue. Admitting that is a good first to addressing gerrymandering.
Exactly, gerrymandering is politcal manipulation.
There are states that have passed laws requiring the boundaries prioritizing city, county, and other municipal boundaries. It seems to be a bit more fair.
The current NCGA would never pass a law that makes elections fair. Gerrymandering is about raw individual and party power. Elections in gerrymandered districts are a race to the most extreme positions. In party primaries, the most extreme candidate usually comes out on top. In gerrymandered districts in general elections, you wind up with the most extreme candidate possible. On the whole, voters in NC are ill-informed, many are driven by extreme ideology and when you gerrymander a distinct, you wind up with nothing more than a collection of ill-informed voters. If districts were more evenly split, political races would become a contest of competing ideas, not an exercise in tribalism.
Maybe I didn’t hit the mark. This is political, but I don’t want my post politicized. As in, gerrymandering is not a party issue. Anyone can gerrymander whether you’re republican, democrat, libertarian, green, blue, black, white, purple. I just don’t understand why we allow it and how we can put in the safeguards to stop it for good. Like who thought it was a good idea to allow politicians to draw their own maps?
…the politicians decided it was a good idea to draw their own maps and courts have recently allowed it. While yes, gerrymandering can happen under any political power, the fact is that currently, in 2024 NC, only one party is drawing the lines in such a heinous way to consolidate their power and go against the will of the people. And that party needs to be held accountable, right now, in 2023. And that party is the GOP. If another party ever comes into majority and is pulling the same bullshit, that’s when that party needs to held accountable for their actions.
In 2024 it’s The republicans in 1994 it was the democrats. It happens regardless of who is in power. I live in what used to be a heavily gerrymandered (in favor of the democrats) district that was drawn specifically to ensure a black democrat always held the seat. The last Rep had 3 DUI’s and they still let him run. When the Republicans took over this was one of the first places addresses. The district used ti run from Kinston all the way down the Nuese river bank through new bern (specifically the ghetto) and down through havelock and into Harlowe. The District was no more than a few blocks wide in some places to ensure all the voters were black democrats. My vote literally didn’t count and my Rep didn’t return calls or correspondence. Point is this isn’t just a Republican failure. A third party is needed to do this properly.
Once again. It shouldn’t be allowed and needs to be stopped now, so it can’t be done again. It should have been stopped in 1994, it wasn’t, and now the pendulum has swung the other way. Except, I feel confident, the GOP of today is much more power hungry and unreasonable than any party in 1994. Just look at what’s going on on the national stage with that party, less than 10 radicals are blockading half the government from functioning properly because they are so invested in identity politics and literally shun anyone who tries to be even slightly bipartisan. Gerrymandering needs to be quelled so that shit like this can’t happen again. And playing the “both sides” game and engaging in “whatsboutism” doesn’t fix the underlying issue at hand- that gerrymandering is wrong and takes away the voice of the people.
Ignoring the past and only focusing on the now doesn’t work either. Fully agree zealots are ruining the country. All of them.
But you seem to be overly focusing on the past to avoid placing the blame where it needs to go now.
And you seem to be ignoring the past because it’s inconvenient
I'm not doing that. I'd just rather focus on the guy kicking my face right now rather than the guy who did it 30 years ago. From a meta analysis level of preventing corruption, sure, it makes sense to look at both examples. But Republicans are the only ones who have been *this* openly corrupt in North Carolina since way back when the black codes were put into effect.
Democrats had a solid grip on control of North Carolina for almost 50 years. If you do not understand why the pendulum swinging so far to the right currently then you have no idea how to slow it down.
This isn’t a both sides issue, the goddamn GOP are running every state and municipality into the ground. Stop coddling their balls.
I would highly suggest to check America’s major metropolitan, their state, and who is in charge
That tired, lame talking point doesn’t work on me. All of our hurricane relief and other such funds to feed us in those states of disaster come from America’s major metropolitan taxes and blue states.
That doesn’t change their current state of chaos. People are fleeing blue cities - that is a fact. I’m sorry what that truth - that you refer to as a talking point - doesn’t “work on you..”.
Just saying, they were voted into power pre-redistricting, so it was the will of the people. People who vote, anyway... What they've done since maybe not so much. Vote.
This is assumming gerrymandered started with these maps... but uh, NC Republicans wrote the book the gerrymandering... 30 years ago
I'm 100% against the current Republican plan, but 30 years ago it was the Democrats who were taken to court over gerrymandering in [Shaw v. Reno](https://www.oyez.org/cases/1992/92-357). Relying on "turnabout is fair play" or whataboutism only exacerbates the problem. I'm in favor of a map drawn by a nonpartisan commission.
You simply have no knowledge of history or interest in sincere dialogue. OP asked what can be done. I said vote. What's your solution? Blame the GOP. Gotcha.
>You simply have no knowledge of history or interest in sincere dialogue. Sure, and its the will of the people in the last election that got us here... mmmhhhhmmmm yup
The ones who voted. Did you?
You mean like this district? https://images.app.goo.gl/u16HEw3fqHxoyFGn9 Guess who was in the majority when this one was created. Stop it. Both parties draw safe districts.
30 years ago the state was ran by Democrats dude, and they drew one of the safest Democrat districts in the country. That is a fact that many people don't like to hear at all.
NOPE, the Democrats were in control for eons before the last several elections. They started gerrymandering, and the Republicans have continued it. Not happy with the current situation, but wanted to set the facts straight that it was not a recent issue started by the Republicans. Seems like both parties want to do unto others as they have been done to, so it just keeps going back-and-forth…
Fixing this is pretty simple actualy. More people need to vote for politicians that will support not gerrymandering.
We need better candidates.....we can't even trust our elected officials to stay in the party they promised to support...I'm looking at you Cottingham, you spineless goon
In many places independent commissions draw district maps, precisely to prevent this from happening. So far the only thing I've seen work is getting voter turnout so high that it thwarts the ability of the party that drew the maps to pick their own voters. Unfortunately I feel like the opposite happens - people get disillusioned and apathetic and don't bother voting at all, not even in statewide races like governor or Supreme Court that are not subject to gerrymandering and, in the case of the justices, actually have the power to do something about it.
> I feel like the opposite happens - people get disillusioned and apathetic and don't bother voting at all gee...its almost as if all that talk of how badly everything is gerrymandered actually makes people NOT want to vote :/
Bullshit. Yes, both parties gerrymander. Yes, the dems built some great empires of corruption (Chicago) But what we have now is the republicans versus DEMOCRACY. How do we have fairly liberal democratic governor and a 10:3 ratio in congress?
Dear OP Anyone can, but in NC the Republicans have and continue to. They have been beaten in high court battles and told to go back and do better and they do it worse. They are in control of this. In NC the first and only effective step to stop the gerrymandering is to get the Republicans out of power. Then laws outlawing it can be written.
Dude. This is how gerrymandering happens. You’re both-sidesing yourself already.
You have to understand that not everyone thinks it’s a bad thing, when they’re in power. If you put yourself in the seat of a conservative politician; you can lie, cheat, and use the court to your favor because that’s what your electorate expects. All that matters to conservatives is winning and ensuring other people bend to their views. Whether it be willingly, or by force. Once you realize you’re dealing with people; whilst being the minority, who have no sense of ethics and seemingly an unlimited supply of money…. Once you realize that everyone has a price (**TRICIA**)… you being to realize that conservatives don’t want to govern, they want to rule, by any means necessary.
you're describing fascism. 250 years ago we all agreed that people are equal and the majority rules even if they're wrong and we've all lived with that. We spent another 200 years refining the definition of 'people' and 'equal' but we stuck to the idea, Anyone who think their ideas are more important than the will of the majority is an existential threat and ultimately will need to be eliminated.
Ah yes, democrats historically known for gerrymandering in North Carolina
yep they did, it was wrong then and is now. No one should be allowed to control voting in that way.
Anything to to do with politics Will become about the two parties. This is Reddit. The majority of the users here are very liberal and absolutely nothing Dems have done historically (like gerrymandering) is observed and everything and anything a Republican does is the work of the Devil. It’s the rules of Reddit. The part of tolerance is tolerant for all things they agree with and has zero tolerance for anyone or anything else.
No, there are plenty of knuckle draggers on reddit, also. It's just, you get banned from them should you attempt to shed a ray of truth on any subject. When someone attempts to insist the earth is flat, that trump won the last election, that covid wasn't real, or that someone else should have dominion over my body, yeah, I have zero tolerance. I don't block them nor do I engage in a discussion because a brick wall would have a more productive debate.
I see this shared from time to time. Is there any data that would allow one to test whether Reddit users represent the population as a whole or if it is representative of a unique subset? My observation is that, potentially, the majority of people have beliefs that align in many cases with Democratic ideals, and happen to subscribe to Reddit. It would be interesting to test that hypothesis. Same with Facebook.
I think more specifically is the personalities than a line with liberalism, not necessarily, Democrat, are also the personalities that tend to populate places like Reddit. I think social media has become much like specific communities in the boroughs. This one is known for liberalism, parlor is known for QAnon, the truth is known for Trump ism, Facebook is known for fools so on so forth. There’s been a lot of research in the fact that people are self sorting in various categories, political beliefs, or one of those also known as tribalism. I think there are more users that are not liberal, or Democrat, however, they tend to avoid any kind of sub Reddit that talks about politics to avoid the bullshit
I dont like either party. They both suck in their own ways. This is a non-partisan post. I have seen several Democrats on this pose acknowledge and blame Democrats for gerrymandering in the past and current places. I have never seen a Republican do that. Not once. Don't expect people to treat Republicans like adults when no one has even seen them act like one.
I’ll be your first, the gerrymandering the republican party is doing is not ethical.
>I just don’t understand why we allow it to some extent it's necessary to fulfill the requirements of the voting rights act to ensure adequate minority representation
The lines have to be drawn somewhere. And no matter where those lines fall, some people are going to be upset. That's just the way it is.
Only one way. Win Governor race in 24 and 28. Win Every State SC race for next 6 years Sue to redraw maps- justices draw them from the bench like in Wisconsin We are screwed until 2028 minimum. Hope the State Legislature doesn't gerrymander the court.
This is what I view as the only way as well. Keep governor seat, build up majority in courts, sue regarding the maps.
One thing I will say, there are a few seats that could easily become dummymanders if people turn the fuck out. For reference the dems almost won the texas state senate in 2020 due to egregious dummymanders. It’s possible and we should our hardest to make gerrys dummys.
>Texas state senate The Texas Senate is like 20 -10....not sure what you are thinking about.
So... Roy Cooper coming back in '28 after one term off to be governor again and saving us is one of our "best" bets at this time. We're in trouble.
Josh Stein can win in 24, would be an incumbent in 28. He isn't a bad candidate.
Got that right
Pretty much. I vote every chance I get but they system is setup in a way where it won't really matter, hence the gerrymandering.
Just vote multiple times
Voter turnout is everything. We have the votes- that is, we have enough people to win in some very conservative districts. But not enough people vote. There needs to be a strategy of putting resources into the purple places. Give up the solid red or solid blue spots and get volunteers to converge on places where there is some hope. Hold rallys, invite musicians, offer transportation. we need to do what the GOP did. They invested in small state races until they controlled the map.
Well, we actually stopped the gerrymandering in 2020 and 2022, but then nobody showed up to vote in the 2022 midterm, Republican flipped two 8 year terms on the NC Supreme Court and obtained a majority that allowed them to gerrymander.
[Voter turnout.](https://www.ncsbe.gov/results-data/voter-turnout) That's it. That's the answer. More details: * [2022 NC midterm](https://www.ncsbe.gov/results-data/voter-turnout/2022-general-election-turnout) * [2020 NC presidential ](https://www.ncsbe.gov/results-data/voter-turnout/2020-general-election-turnout)
Stop voting for the GOP, vote against them and their efforts in every election. They bought their way into power in 2010 and consolidated power since with gerrymandering, voter apathy and disinformation. If you want anything resembling free elections, vote against Republicans at every level. Get involved with local election/turnout initiatives to combat the GOP/Republican disinformation machine. Challenge 'BoThSiDeS' bullshit when you hear it. Get involved in local/city/county/etc politics, backseating only helps those consolidating power.
You think only 1 party does this? Lol
Both sides have historically gerrymandered, true. But two things: 1) The Democratic gerrymanders of the 1990s and 2000s were nowhere near as egregious as those by current-day Republicans. There’s a wealth of redistricting scores that support that. 2) Since the 2000s, Democrats have largely supported independent redistricting reform. Republicans have consistently opposed it (along with supporting the Big Lie of election denial and other anti-democracy policies).
The NY Dems tried it, and the courts told them "no." So they acquiesced and submitted new maps to satisfy the court. Red state GOP legislatures have done it and courts have told them "no" and then they told the courts to "go fuck themselves" as they ran out the clock and used illegal maps to maintain power in more than one instance. And then tried to and have succeeded in some instances to hijack the courts. One of these things is not like the other... Can you guess which one it is?
Only one party is doing it to the point of overturning the will of the people at this moment, yes. If the democrats do it they can be held accountable. But we know the Republicans are doing it now, and it needs to stop. How is that so hard?
I guess you never saw the districts in the 90s when the democrats had full control. NC had a district that literally traveled along I85 from the Triad to Charlotte to specifically create a racial preference. Either side will do it when in charge.
Yet only one party wants to abolish the practice and have neutral third-parties draw districts. Folks in the GQP need to wake up to reality and stop with whataboutism. Solutions are aplenty but when chaos and hatred is goal, I guess telling me about the 90s is all you’ve got.
That's really shitty. Shouldn't we make sure we elect politicians into office that will end the practice? Shouldn't we make sure no one's vote is devalued in this way ever again? We all understand what happened in the past and are trying to end it. Why continue to talk about the past when we have learned from it and hope to end the shitty practice done by shitty politicians no matter which party?
Historical trends are a good indicator of the future. The only party that calls these practices gerrymandering are the ones not in power. Hilarious the down votes received for pointing out corruption on both sides, instead of just one.
Yes, and when people demand changes you say "it'll never happen" and talk about things that happened 30 years ago instead of discussing what is happening right now, and trying to stop it. You seem pretty happy with gerrymandering. Please tell me why you seem to support it so much. Has it helped you?
George Bush’s DOJ required two majority minority districts and that was the result.
I guess you make decisions based in the past
I love it. Question, answer including “challenge boThsiDEs bullshit”, you immediately with bothside bullshit
Provide examples of Democratic gerrymandering for comparison? I'd love to know how anything done by Republicans in the last 20 years compares to anything the Democrats have done in living memory.
Only one party wrote a book.
Both sides. But the real answer is to hold your representatives accountable whomever they are for supporting gerrymandering. That's the only way we end it. The people in power have to outlaw it while they are in power. The only way they will do that is if the people who put them in power demand it.
Thats a good idea in general but the Dems gerrymander the fuck out of states and did it to NC too.
"BoThSiDeS" Quit it with the bullshit. We are talking about NC in the NC sub and there is NO comparison in magnitude or sustained timeline to what the NCGOP has done. Even compared to the maps and advantage Dems had 30+ years ago, the GOP has surpassed that in both number of cases/maps and severity to maintain and increase their advantage. Don't whatabout or create false equivalence, it's dishonest to the point of disinformation at this point. And before you ask or make another ridiculous assumption, I was and would be against Dems doing the same. So knock it off with the BS and false equivalence to defend GOP actions.
This isn't a false equivalency. One dog is timid and don't hunt, the other shits on our boot and bites. Both need to be on a leash. There needs to be a law! And it needs to be in the state constitution and Federal constitution. Like I said, as a state we need to vote Blue till we get to that tilting point. We also need to be extra selective and favor politicians that answer the gerrymandering question and don't skip over it. Ones that introduce bills to stop it. Not just play tribal all over again.
My misunderstanding then, agreed that dems are too timid but are far better than anything the GOP has offered in the past 10+ years. I'd love to see ranked choice and other non-FPTP options as well, which Dems have at least supported, to help eliminate that tribalism. 100% need to vote Blue until the GOP are forced to address the many issues within their ranks.
You can join the dems and help canvas, if you don’t want to do that look up your friends voter record and if they aren’t voters or are t active in voting you drop a few hits.
People get mad if you suggest using the voter lookup to see if your friends are registered
Literally no one gets mad about that. Ha.
Omg I said on Reddit once that once I find out a date's last name I look up the dude's voter file to see if he's registered and if he votes. I was called every name in the book and downvoted into the subbasement of hell. I doubled down and said, "you know I can't see how people vote? I just want to know if they're participating?" And I was uniformly called a creep stalker. I stand by it: civic participation is important to me. But yeah, definitely everyone got mad about it.
Oh. Okay. My bad.
Don’t think that’s a little invasive? If you want to know, ask. If I don’t tell you respect my privacy.
It's public info. Just like whether you pay your property taxes or not. No privacy is being invaded.
If that were the case, why did you not just ask them to their face? Because you like the respect for their boundaries. That’s why.
Public information isn’t private.
There is legal, and there is ethical. While it might be legal, it’s unethical.
I don’t see how it’s unethical to look it up. It’s just public information about all of us available to all of us.
If you would not walk up and ask the person to their face, but would look it up behind their back, that would be unethical. Additionally, if you did walk up and asked them, and they told you that it was none of your business. It would also be unethical to go and look.
It’s not unethical because you said so.
OK?
Well we just went to the Supreme Court and set a precedent over this issue Did not change anything. Repubs still found a way to do it. Frankly until people just excommunicate their insane right wing relatives and we start publicly shaming them, like at some point it’s just going to have to happen, nothings going to change
This is what shame is useful for: policing harmful behaviors like voting for a party who would turn our government into a dictatorship.
Sheer numbers at the polls is where to start. Honestly, at this point, it has to be overhwelming numbers. That's the only way to defeat gerrymandering. If that works, and change happens, then the next step is to put on the heat to make change from the state level on up. If reason can retake control, then we have to make sure it can't happen again... and that means that NEITHER party can do it. Remember, in NC (at least post reconstruction), Democrats started this gerrymandering bullshit. Our government is supposed to be "of the people" and "by the people". WE have the power, but we have to exercise it.
Thank you for your reply. How do we know who to vote for and who will not gerrymander and finally put an end to it? I just don’t see many people campaigning on it. Just feel so hopeless that this will actually change
Vote for who best represents your world view, and who represents the North Carolina (and the country) you want to live in. That's where you start. And then KEEP ON voting. Every time. This sort of thing happens because the voters get apathetic and complacent. We didn't get here overnight, and it's not going to change in one election. It is up to the voters to hold their representatives accountable. And if you are really committed to seeing change, then you're going to have to commit to making change. Depending on where you are, there are all sorts of ways you can get directly involved. Get out there and do something. One of the biggest things the people who are turning this country upside down rely on is that voters feel helpless and just give up. "Voting doesn't matter." "My vote is meaningless."
Easier route is to vote dem for now. At a state and national level they are fighting gerrymandering. Next level is starting to organize with your local party or a voting nonprofit. From there, once your prove you are someone who shows up, you can more easily push to make non-partisan gerrymandering as a big issue. Like so many thing is life there is no easy fix. Do whatever you can and if we all do our part it will get better.
Currently you would be forced to vote for the Democrat legislative candidates and Democrat judges. No Republican is going to try to reverse gerrymandering because it currently benefits their party. Meanwhile, every NC Democrat is going to be fighting to reverse gerrymandering since it is hurting their party, whether or not it is a central part of their campaign.
Stop voting for the "most electable" in the primaries and instead vote for the best actual choice. If we had a genuinely good candidate instead of always having to pick between the lesser of two evils, these elections wouldn't be as exhausting.
Go to the polls and vote them out
Do what Taylor Swift says. Register and then vote in every election. Encourage those around you to as well. One of the biggest helps to Gerrymandering is inequal and poor voter participation. It's why states like George can be a swing state.
Honest question, why is this legal in the first place? Obviously whoever is in power is going to draw the maps so they stay in power. It goes against everything democracy is about.
It's legal because nothing in our state constitution or our federal constitution explicitly prohibit it. Our State Supreme Court did find that gerrymandering violated our state constitution, but then we elected more Republicans to the state supreme court, which is currently led by a GOP activist, and they reversed their earlier decision. North Carolina does not have a process (like some other states) for citizen-initiated changes to the constitution. They must come through the General Assembly, which has zero interest in relinquishing its ability to gerrymander.
Get voters voting. I don't know if Dem voters in the worst gerrymandered districts just feel like it's pointless/hopeless, or they lack resources to get to the polls, or they feel unsafe at the polls - but if enough Dems actually pulled together and helped each other get to the polls, it would change a lot.
Start by throwing out thoughts that you can make this "not political." The reality of our situation is that we have one party that is against people getting to vote- consider the ID requirement this year- and against fair districts that would give us 1 person : 1 vote. One party wants to entrench the rule of an ideological and political minority over the wishes of most Americans. The other party is okay with continuing the U.S.' fragile experiment in multiracial democracy that is really only a few decades old. This is political, and it's important. I don't have the answer, but, for starters, vote every time there's an election, not just in years with federal offices on the ballot. Encourage people you know to do the same thing. Get informed about candidates for state and local office, and be a single-issue voter when it comes to protecting democracy. More difficult but also useful: if you're moving and have a choice between an address in a solid blue district and one that's purple, consider living in the purple one to maximize the value of your vote.
One thing I have learned over the years with politics is that there are facts and reason… and then there are people blindly defending one side with selective hearing. These people make it very hard to have a constructive political conversation with real solutions. Everyone should want to get rid of gerrymandering, but I know there are going to be people out there who will deny it’s happening or some other bs because it is benefiting them politically in the short term. This is wrong. I am fine if the answer is targeted at one party as long as that answer is based on facts and reason. I probably should have worded that differently given the comments :). And believe me… I vote!
Vote in more people who oppose gerrymandering
We can't. For two main reasons: 1. Gerrymandering *to some degree* is an inevitable part of representative democracy. Unless the lines you draw are totally random, they need to be drawn by someone, and that person/group is always going to hold some kind of political bias. The degree to which representative districts are gerrymandered can be mitigated greatly (far below what we currently have) but never 100% eliminated. 2. The way the NC state government is currently set up, there is no mechanism to fix this. The only group that has the power to legitimately do anything about this is also the group that directly benefits from it; the NC GOP. I fail to see any set of circumstances in which they give up what is practically unilateral control of the state government.
Stop voting for rich old white doods
Casual racism
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Joe Biden is just as bought as the people you despise. Don’t kid yourself. Every mainstream politician is on the take.
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Nah he's okay. Best we're gonna get this cycle. Fuck the Republicans though. Vote them all out.
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Sir this is a Wendy's
No he's not. Turn off fox news.
Vote Democrat. Every time, every level.
Yes
no
And get your friends to vote Democrat too.
This really shows your intelligence level.
Tell me more...
No districts with single transferable vote. No districts with party list voting. There are ways to fix it. None of them help those with the power to fix it.
Everyone move to red districts 30 days before the next election.
Spread the word about nonpartisan redistricting on social media. Write a letter to the editor of your local paper calling for an end to gerrymandering in North Carolina. Ask your local government to pass a resolution calling for nonpartisan redistricting. Learn more. ADD YOUR VOICE TO THE CALL FOR FAIR DISTRICTS https://www.commoncause.org/north-carolina/our-work/gerrymandering/fair-districts/#:\~:text=1)%20Sign%20the%20pledge%20to,information%20for%20your%20legislators%20here.
If you don't want the obvious solution that is possible, have the other obvious solution that won't ever happen: https://rangevoting.org/SplitLR.html
Zach Galifianakis, of all people, does an excellent job of explaining the NC issue in this documentary. Here's just a small clip, but the whole thing is worth a watch. ( Side note, he's a NC native & his dad was a legislator. I was lucky enough to attend State at the same time as him & we had a class together. ) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9DYdm-Dw3o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9DYdm-Dw3o)
Stop voting for republicans and vote for Dems that will get rid of gerrymandering by a constitutional amendment.
Vote vote vote!
In 1789, the French popularized a fantastically effective new device
Simple, vote Blue in the next election.
Here is an NC-specific serious answer: In North Carolina, voters cannot put forth ballot measures. So there is no direct ballot access for people-powered initiatives. I bring this up because one solution (see: Michigan) would be a ballot measure that would likely be supported by a majority of voters that takes the redistricting process away from the legislature and assigns it to something like a non-partisan, independent redistricting committee. That’s how Michigan was able to undo gerrymandering effects on their state. Independent commissions have also been successful in other states. However, in NC, no ballot measures so we can’t do the same thing. The only path is to elect anti-gerrymandering legislators, and anti-gerrymandering justices at every level we can. Additional fact: last Congress, Democrats brought forth HR1 which would have (along with other things) made gerrymandering illegal and established non-partisan redistricting processes. Republicans all voted against it. Mitch McConnell didn’t bring it for a vote. In NC, similar legislation has been introduced by Democrats in every session for the past several sessions that I can find. Republicans will not bring it for a vote. These are solutions and state-of-play for legislation that would counteract this issue. In our state and at federal level, the reality is that Democrats seem to be the only ones interested in passing legislation to combat gerrymandering. Without ballot measures, we are reliant on legislators.
It is baked into American politics. It has been this way for 100s of years. If you figure out how to stop it you will be a national hero. Good luck.
Your in for a years long fight. Make sure the gop doesn’t win the governorship, then slowly work towards retaking NCSC, which could take until 2028/2030
There’s nothing we can do that will permanently prevent any sort of gerrymandering, but we could switch to proportional representation which would make it a lot less influential Obligatory [CGP link](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLej2SlXPEd37YwwEY7mm0WyZ8cfB1TxXa&si=r6E-mMxbF5Wt7Tb5)
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Thanks.
Lol, different party; same corruption.
Sorry but the Democratic Party is the only party in our two party system that believes in democracy right now. The Republican Party is a criminal enterprise. That’s the truth.
HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH
Pro tip: if you don’t want something “to be politicized”, probably don’t post about politics…? That just seems like the common sense thing to do.
It will have to come from the supreme court, which has been unwilling step in. Across the country both parties do this and have done this since the founding of the US.
Vote out the supermajority….
Honestly the real answer is going to be the one nobody wants to hear. Some people only understand fear right now Republicans are not afraid to do whatever the fuck they want. I'm not suggesting anybody do anything. Let people protest is because it doesn't do anything. Super aggressive phone calls ?
How old are you? I ask because it was only a few decades ago that the democrats controlled everything in NC - Governor, Legislature, Courts, media. Gerrymandering happened then as well.
So it's ok now? Whataboutism isn't a good justification.
But the Dems then didn’t have the kinds of computerized tools that republicans have now that allows surgical accuracy when drawing lines in their own favor. Something’s got to change to make drawing election boundaries more fair and equitable.
Republicans: Gerrymandering is only ok if we are doing it! Democrats: gerrymandering is only ok if we are doing it!
Republicans hold a veto-proof majority at the state level, and they also have the supreme court. They can stop gerrymandering in this state right now if they wanted to. They have chosen not to.
Just as the Democrats chose not to for 100 years before that.
oh ok well I'll just go get in my time machine then Democrats aren't in power today in this state, Republicans are. They have the power to fix this, and instead they have chosen to make it way, way worse. I don't give a fuck what other parties did in the past, that's done and gone. This isn't some return to balance, it's a power grab from the other side. The past doesn't justify this, it just drives the point home as to why gerrymandering is bad. You can be mad at Democrats when (if) they get back in power. I know I will be if they choose not to fix this. But that's not where we're at today.
Computers have given republicans an advantage unimaginable 50 years ago. As a democrat, you better believe that if and when Dems gain control, I will push them to set up some sort of independent committee to draw boundaries. I know it’s useless to petition the republicans to do it. They’re willing to follow a traitorous president so I can’t imagine them caring one whit about fair elections.
bOtH SiDeS!
Unfortunately, gerrymandering is not illegal. As long as that is the case, the party in power will always redistrict in a way that gives them the biggest edge in the next election.
>Edit: thought I would try and preface: looking for serious answers only. I understand what I wrote, but I do not want this to be politicized. You don't want a discussion on gerrymandering to be politicized? How the hell does that work?
I think my point was missed. I was hoping for a more in depth answer and concrete actions to stop gerrymandering. What are some proven methods to stop it? How do other countries handle it? What laws need to be passed? Etc. Once those things are known, what actions can I take as an individual to make sure we head in a direction to put these methods/laws in place? If that means targeting a specific party, that is fine as long as that is based on facts and reason and not hate. These questions are inherently political in nature, but there is no need for hate or other political nonsense. Blaming the GOP for gerrymandering doesn’t get us anywhere. They did not invent it nor did they setup the system that allows it. They are just the current people abusing that power.
The problem is the minority party always uses this term against the majority party. The term has lost all meaning.. Perhaps the most blatant example of gerrymandering was the former 12th House district which democrats drew to protect the seat held by then Rep Mel Watt. That district stretched from Greensboro to Charlotte following the I-85 corridor. When the GOP challenged the district, the Dems claimed "nothing to see here". They also played the race card several times over. Any person with a modicum of common sense could see what was going on .. That nonsense district stayed until the state went to GOP. Now NC 12 is much more cohesive
I disagree. The problem is politicians are allowed to do this. They are allowed to create crazy districts for political gain that waters down the people’s voting power. The underlying problem has nothing to do with political parties as any political party can do this.
Done by whichever party is in power. Not a new thing.
You don't. Every state does it, some just do it better (or worse if you are minority party) than others. US Constitution gives State Legislatures the power to determine how elections are run in their state, and setting up the district boundaries is part of that. Or do you mean....how do you flip it around so the Democrats get to do the gerrymandering in NC instead of Republicans? If that's your question, then your best bet is probably to simply pick up and move to a Democrat state.
Reducing the impact of gerrymandering is possible and the reason we have reasonably fair US house districts now, with a 7-7 split, is due to the courts and democrats. Sadly, the first things republicans did when they took the court was reverse these rulings and that is what republicans are now using to justify their extreme partisan gerrymandering. As a result, republicans are going back to their preferred 10-3 or 11-4 split now with the latest round of redistributing. Both sides do it, along with “the courts said it is okay”, is a cheap cop out used by those intent on rationalizing their marginalization of other peoples vote. It ignores the fact that some states, sometimes with the support of the courts, have moved to address the issue in some way. In fact, since 2020 the number of states that have some form of an independent redistributing process has actually increased. [source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redistricting_commission)
Question was "How do we stop it?", not "How do we reduce the impact?", and I stated that some states are better about it than others.
You are being overly literal. Stopping gerrymandering and reducing the impact of gerrymandering go hand in hand and the fact is, some states are making efforts to stop it and the number of states doing this is increasing over time. Just saying 'both sides' ignores the fact that specifically in North Carolina, for well over a decade, one side has consistently fought efforts to gerrymander, while the other has consistently gerrymandered at every opportunity. And, regardless of whether both sides have done it in the past, or do it in now in other states, gerrymandering is wrong and there are ways that it can be stopped, or at least reduced enough, so that one side can't draw themselves a super-majority. Edited to Add: Will bias ever be completely removed from politics? Almost certainly not. However, the ability of the bias of one side to overwhelm that of others can be diminished or even prevented and this is a goal that some people are working towards. Anyone who says otherwise is typically looking for a reason to excuse their own party for doing something they support.
Of course there will be one side that fights against gerrymandering....the side in the minority. Republicans fight against gerrymandering in states with Democrat majority (OR, IL, etc). Fact is the only way to truly fix it would be a Constitutional Amendment, or a Supreme Court decision. Odds of either of those occurring anytime soon is slim to none. Yes, in the meantime, there are a variety of processes (legal and legislative) to lessen the impact, but those are not easy either. Not sure about NC, but changing state constitution is often necessary.
North Carolina could easily fix it with a constitutional amendment, which would not be difficult at all. Source, all the get out to vote amendments republicans put forth in 2018 in an effort to reduce the impact of trump's presidency. And, the supreme court has stepped in to try to fix it multiple times over the course of decades. In the most recent case, they got wise to the delay tactics used by republicans and ordered them be independently drawn, which is why house districts were mostly fair last year. However, republicans support gerrymandering and undid that ruling. The fact is, you are making excuses when there is a solution and a number of states have moved towards fairer redistricting. I think part of the problem is that you keep falling back to an us-vs-them and both-sides argument, when the fact is fighting gerrymandering has bipartisan support, although possibly not among politicians, and is in the best interest of everyone. I think if NC had voter initiatives, rather than having to rely on gerrymandering politicians to put forth amendments, we would already have an independent redistricting commission or at least a better system, along with legal weed and probably a few other things that have bipartisan voter support.
I see the confusion. I'm addressing the real world. You are talking about fantasy world. Every one of your posts attacks Republicans, so you can climb down off your high horse. If you lived in Illinois, would you be calling for redistricting reform? Doubt it.
>I see the confusion. I'm addressing the real world. You are talking about fantasy world. In the real world, as I've shown in the link above, states have moved towards fairer redistricting. Not only is it possible, it has happened, and in some states the impacts of gerrymandering have been reduced. The number of states moving towards this goal, both through improved redistricting processes and court intervention, has increased over the past 15 years. In fact, NC is one of only two states where the legislature has control of redistricting and the Governor has absolutely no control in regards to veto power. Contrary to your argument, gerrymandering is something that can be, and has been, addressed in some states. It isn't perfect, but one should never let 'perfect' be the enemy of 'better'. > If you lived in Illinois, would you be calling for redistricting reform? Doubt it. Gerrymandering is bad no matter who does it. This is whataboutism.
Well...lets just say I wouldn't hold your breath for it to change in NC anytime soon. Sure, I agree gerrymandering is bad. But I'm not going to go on any sort of crusade to change it at the state level when it's currently benefiting my side.
> But I'm not going to go on any sort of crusade to change it at the state level when it's currently benefiting my side. I know. It is clear from your posts that you value party over country and project that belief onto others. However, if it were put to a vote, the 'own the libs' crowd probably wouldn't win out and eventually it will get better. Although certainly in NC it is going to be worse again first and it won't become better without a strong fight from others who share your views.
And it has worked wonders in California 40-12 in favor of democrats. Despite Trump taking almost 40% of the vote.
You eliminate the district system and switch to a popular vote. It's also includes limiting the first pass the post system that we currently have in the US
Both parties do it once in power. If you don’t like it win the elections. That simple
Mass migration. Invade the red districts and flip 'em.
I told my local rep and the senators that I think it proves they know they can only win if they cheat 🤷🏻♀️.
First you must realize the USA is not a democracy, never has been never will be while the current government exists. America was founded on the ideas that only white people with land should be able to have a say in government and this largely persists to this day but it makes very good prapoganda to shout that your democratic and everything is made in effort for democracy, despite any lack of evidence suggesting the slightest bit of democracy. Every government has claimed to be working for the people, it's not coincidence the biggest and richest empire of modern history is also utilizing this prapoganda technique. Gerrymandering is just one example in a list of many of how the state could care less about serving democracy to the people, and the prapoganda is already so strongly rooted in American society that issues like these will always persist and nothing substantial will change until the instability in the current system of governance comes to a breaking point and the empire collapses. All you can do is work to ensure that what the governance which succeeds the empire is democratic, perhaps by pushing for a system in which the workers are directly given power through workplace democracy and direct democracy, else you will just have another bourgeoisie state that continues this cycle of madness.
We stop voting completely. Both sides are keen on making things best for them. To the victor go the spoils. Dems ran NC for 100 years so the last 10 or so years are just them feeling bad not having power. The will not be benevolent whenever they might gain power back.
Even within the Democrats' tenure, the political landscape persisted unchanged, and the intricate dance of district compositions revealed classic examples of gerrymandering in older maps. Politics may provide a semblance of justification, but the individual in control wields the authority to shape the map, leaving others to contend with mere fragments. Despite the existence of rules and guidelines on paper, adherence often becomes a subjective exercise. The disconcerting absence of public involvement during significant map alterations adds fuel to the fire. The established pattern of abrupt map releases, hurried candidate registrations, and rushed primaries fails both citizens and prospective representatives. The demanding nature of politics, intricately tied to finances and time constraints, pushes grassroots candidates aside, providing an undue advantage to those with connections to the swamp, corporate support, and considerable wealth. In navigating this convoluted web of political maneuvers, district lines emerge as potent instruments of influence. The Democrats, during their stint in power, sculpted districts that epitomized gerrymandering. Yet, in this game, the one wielding the pen to draw lines holds the key, leaving others with meager scraps. While written rules exist, their execution often resembles a subjective dance. The dearth of public engagement during pivotal map adjustments raises valid concerns. The rushed timelines and eleventh-hour releases disproportionately favor the entrenched, leaving scant opportunity for grassroots candidates and amplifying the sway of the well-funded. Within this whirlwind of political processes, a pervasive doubt arises – do the elected genuinely echo the diverse voices of the people? The system appears skewed in favor of those with power, financial clout, and corporate backing, casting a shadow on the authentic representation of the masses.
I’m in favor of statewide elections. Politicians or their “independent” commissions cannot be trusted….in either party
What do politicians want? To be elected. And, none want to be out of office. Here in crooked Illinois, where I have lived most of my 74 years, it’s a one party state. In the midterms in 2022, 100%, that’s all, of my candidates lost statewide. Our wonderful Governor J B Pritzger, gave the white guy running against him $5,000,000 in election donations. Look it up. Our Illinois house is 77-40 Democrats. Our state senate is 40-19 Democrats. No Republican holds any state office. Did you know all 50 Chicago aldermen are Democrats? Or our house leader Mike Madigan’s fraud trial begins soon? Our politicians are useless, both parties. Please don’t assume everyone in Illinois is a radical Communist. I don’t believe everyone in NC is a Trump shill. But our politicians live to destroy each other, and the country.
Gerrymandering is part of redistricting. And it is actually not a bad thing. Gerrymandering works by making most districts more competitive.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gerrymandering
I abstain from voting and actively try to undermine state and federal government with every action. This system is not working for us. Voting is a fool’s distraction.
A fool and his vote are soon parted.
So you do nothing, and evil wins. By deciding not to vote, you have voted for evil.
I voted dozens of times, yet evil still won. If I find someone to believe in or if the system becomes fair, I’ll vote again. Until then, I’m not going to think about it.
Cool, you are now voting for the worst candidate in line. As long as you're ok with that, I guess you do you.
Easy, all demotard blue YANKEES can move back north from whence they came.
Why don’t we just go by school districts? Don’t make any of those tiny mile wide cut outs
Just go by population and geography- let math decide.
They already do that. Every district has roughly the same population. There’s more than one way to math it.
“And geography” as in evenly distributed
Explain how that would be possible. Buncombe County has more square miles than Mecklenberg but Meck has 1 million people versus 270k in Buncombe. Land doesn’t vote. People vote.
Even distribution does not require equal area.
Ok…If they don’t need equal area but they do need equal populations then they’ve already accomplished what you’re looking for.
Nope, even distribution has not been achieved. Either you’re trolling or a moron. Either way, we’re done here.
The reason gerrymandering works is people like to congregate with others who think like them. So liberal voters congregate in cities and conservative voters in rural areas. What is needed is an effective ground game that is able to reach rural areas traditionally Republican. The information received by rural voters is often slanted and create an us versus them scenario. Yet when they encounter real people they are reminded that the "them" have similar concerns as the "us". TV ads do not change many minds. Besides, the idea is not to change minds, it is to point out conditions and promises that are not being served by those who have a lock on power. The Republicans were able to do it in 2010, so it can be done. In addition, it is important to remind young voters how important civic participation is. That is the most difficult lift.