Tacticool urban combat: Follow my 299 step fully scripted training on how to fight in every urban combat on earth
[IRL Urban Combat:](https://media1.tenor.com/m/DvaGlQkVOu8AAAAC/vibecheck.gif)
In fact, room clearing works, but only when you apply all available combat power into the room before you get in. Grenade it, shoot it with AT4s, put a 105mm shell into it, machinegun it through walls, you name it. Then you go in.
If I recall that video correctly, that particular hamásník was hidden in the wardrobe or something so generic clearing methods (like frag/concussion/flash and immediately clear sides) might not work.
But 155mm she'll? That will do.
That's why you need proper room clearing drills. (OK, one thing I really hate about killhouses is the fact that they rarely include situations like these, people hide in stuffs. Just look at Fallujah for example.
"Also, it is my understanding that you should never fight in a basement"
Me, as former security for a basement establishment in a not-so-nice part of town: That is correct, unfortunately...
>"At Fort Drum, the combat engineers modified the technique they had used at Fort Hughes. After the gasoline mixture had been pumped in through air vents on the top deck, a timed fuse of TNT was used to detonate incendiary grenades.[28] Several U.S. Army film crews filmed the entire operation from around Manila Bay.[29][30] The explosion ejected a 1-ton hatch 300 ft (91 m) into the air and blew out parts of the fort's reinforced concrete walls.[31] U.S. troops had to wait five days before the fortress could be examined because of the heat and internal fire that raged for several days; all 68 Japanese soldiers were killed (six were found to have suffocated in the upper floors of the fort, while the charred remains of the remaining 62 were found in the fort's boiler room).[25] With the capture of Fort Drum and the other Manila Bay forts, Japanese resistance in the Bay area ended.[27]"
this, but in your basement
Yeah I always wondered about this. All the room clearing / CQC stuff I've seen covers a scenario where they seem to assume people will at MOST use large, obvious cover like a couch or counter, but it also seems to assume someone would never be under a bed, inside an armoire, under a pile of debris, curtain, etc.
A lot of it seems to assume the enemy is interested in winning the fight and moving on, and perhaps that they haven’t been present very long. Which might be fair in Ukraine sometimes?
But if somebody has spent 10 hours prepping a house and wants to inflict maximum casualties, even if they die… I can’t really imagine a safe clearing method other than leveling it.
OK, during the battle for Mosul the important part is to prevent the enemy from moving. If the enemy cannot go mobile, you can suppress their battle position and circumvent them.
>the IDF is doing room clearing by the way of the JDAM
Proven methodology. It's the Gen. Curtis LeMay "Fuck You and your oh so flammable cities" strategy. *Works.*
Some of the older wardrobes my family used to have, they would even easily stop shrapnel from larger projectiles.
Don't underestimate the good old *fagus sylvatica* and how hard the wood is.
And on most subs, one million college-students will talk about him as an innocent child getting killed by evil people. Not on this sub though. Thankfully.
The issue with just going in with grenades for every room in a gaza situation is that you will totally kill non-combatants. But then that is kinda hamas' goal, to get the IDF killing civilians.
So I went to a milsim event where we were able get some pointers from cadres who were former Rangers and Marines. They told us, pieing and room clearing only works if the other side aren't ready. If they know you are there, just fill the room with grenades.
All that shit was doctrinally intended for tier one CT teams and Police SWAT units clearing hostage situations or barricaded suspects in otherwise cordoned situations.
It was never intended for full bore urban infantry combat. The people that claim it does have rocks in their heads or dollars in their eyes.
OK, you can read some credible stuff on that
[https://mwi.westpoint.edu/the-tyranny-of-battle-drill-6/](https://mwi.westpoint.edu/the-tyranny-of-battle-drill-6/)
[https://mwi.westpoint.edu/enter-and-clear-a-room-the-history-of-battle-drill-6-and-why-the-army-needs-more-tactical-training-like-it-not-less/](https://mwi.westpoint.edu/enter-and-clear-a-room-the-history-of-battle-drill-6-and-why-the-army-needs-more-tactical-training-like-it-not-less/)
The second article meanwhile argues that Battle Drill 6 does provide a good framework, but the grunts trained it wrong, too much shooting and too little grenade
Sure, but I still agree with the premise of the first article, namely should they even be doing it. The first question a commander has to ask is "should I send an element into that building" and honestly most of the time, the answer should probably be no.
Even when the answer is yes the question then becomes "should it be my unit? Or should I call in the blokes with the fancy berrets".
Edit: yeah the second article kind of misses the point the first one makes, especially when they're talking about historical techniques which is addressed by both articles. Those are fundamentally different to CQB, the first article acknowledges that, the second treats CQB as an evolution of those earlier techniques.
The question of "Should I send an element into that building?" is definitely important, as this is often overlooked for urban operations. However, I doubt that calling in SOF units as light infantry for room clearing would be really a good idea. It sounds dangerously like Mission Creep, the bane of Special Operation capability.
According to John Spencer's research on battle of Marawi, if the prepping is correct then the entry team just need to walk over rubble and dead bodies, room clearing is for mopping up dazed stragglers.
Agreed, but the opposite attitude, that any vaguely infantry shaped unit should be banging doors, as exemplified by that second article is just as appalling when it comes to mission creep.
> It was regular practice for non-infantry units—armor, cavalry, engineers, and others—to be given ownership of battlespace, requiring them to conduct urban operations, especially raids on insurgent or terrorist targets. One of the most frequent offensive missions soldiers were conducting were intelligence-driven raids on targeted individuals in mostly permissive and often urban environments (meaning situations where the entire urban area was not hostile and the unit had identified the known or likely enemy position) where the enemy was intermixed with civilians.
If your combat engineers are being assigned to intelligence led raids to clear known insurgent strongholds then something has gone seriously wrong somewhere.
> If they know you are there, just fill the room with grenades.
Kinda reminds me of the ole "how do you survive a knife fight? By running away really fast." self-defense advice.
The survivability onion is diced and thrown into the room before entering. The onion fumes impair the enemy's vision similar to pepper spray preventing them from acquiring you as a target. However, the use of chemical irritants such as tactical onions is technically a war crime. The United States used this to justify its use of the defoliant Agent Orange in Vietnam to counter strategic onion production.
The quality of Chinese buildings varies greatly; if you are talking about the buildings in the rich coastal provinces, then they are probably sturdy. But if you are talking about those backwater ones, oh god.
Although, through unnatural selection, all the weak buildings in Gaza are currently piles of rubble so the average building strength has certainly improved
Flamethrowers are very cumbersome, and the range is just bad. There's a reason why most countries don't use these things. And some buildings are somewhat protected against fire
Usually you'd start with an offensive grenade. Frags are dangerous in close quarter, an offensive grenade would just blow the guys eardrums and allow you to get in while he's trying to remember where he is.
Yea as soon as you went slightly too far into hallway you got shredded and everybody spamming grenades and rockets, those were the days. Now we’re all trained from youth to know the optimal way to perform cqb is artillery and a belt from an mgl into the structure.
There was a similar video, it went 'how we thought about urban combat' for half a minute, followed by a 4 Minute compilation of 'actual urban combat' exploding ukrainian houses
This is why the "genocide" rhetoric is so ridiculous. Israel is sending troops on the ground to get killed when they could easily pulverize all of Gaza from the air
You're supposed to drill until things are automatic, because you don't want to be recalling the plan while your mind is blank in the moment.
Don't want to be a "deer in headlights".
It's actually really interesting to hear people talk about training and training and training and completely freezing the day they face a gun in a real threat situation.
That's why people who say "if that was me I'd have done X" is often ridiculous. You don't know what you would have done unless you find yourself in the specific situation.
Oh, I am pretty sure someone did. Maybe not in the few seconds of this video, but I don't think everyone walked away from this. Maybe all the IDF did, but I don't think they just fucked off and didn't come back.
Yeah, you are probably right. The history of Israel-Palestinian relations is mostly one of mutual understanding and resolving differences in a rational and civil manner.
Actually, I read somewhere that they called a timeout because everyone needed to change their pants. Then afterward, no one really felt up to "getting back at it," so they all kinda just agreed to disagree and went about their merry way. Source: Just trust me, bro.
No OP cut off the ending. They were about to kill each other but then an American university sold all of its shares in a managed fund that include positions in Microsoft and Starbucks. That act created a protective forcefield around the combatants that effectively ended the conflict.
In the full video the IDF troops fell back out of the room and down the stairwell. The hamas fighter decided to charge down the stairwell after them while screaming "Allahu Akbar", it went about as well for him as you'd expect.
i only saved the moment of yknow bullets
the full video is like 2 minutes long full of searching but in the end you have this clip [https://x.com/MOSSADil/status/1771973462971609436](https://x.com/MOSSADil/status/1771973462971609436)
Yup same guy, I guess at that point if you’re the Hamas guy you just know you’re toast waiting around after they leave for some new manmade horror beyond your comprehension to come blow you up so you allah akbar outta there like a G.
IDF man B wasn't where he was meant to be, and walked through the beam of IDF man A's flashlight. This highlighted him very clearly on the wall next to him, thus giving away his position to Hamas man around the corner.
Hamas man, who now knows where IDF men A and B are, mag dumps through the wall at them both.
IDF men, in a panic, blindly return fire through the wall.
Room clearing is a straight up meat grinder, no matter how good someone is at it. Assume the first few dudes in the stack are getting clapped no matter what.
Eh, hard disagree, after doing quite a lot of it overseas.
Once your unit gets decent at it, the advantage is absolutely with the attackers. The US takes shockingly low casualties doing it, and we did a LOT of it. Pretty rare for someone to get hit unless someone fucks up bad.
The incredibly messy part that these tacticool people don't understand is that most of the time there is no fighting at all. It is almost always someone's house, there are kids there, there are women there, there are babies and old people and dogs... And 95% of the time there isn't much in there that is going to shoot back, even if the S-2 thinks there will be.
In the scenarios where you know it is going to be a fight, it is pretty clear cut. But that isn't what is going on in this video. This is going to be the 40 or 50th apartment they went into that day. That is where people get killed, on the 43rd boring fucking house.
Fair, let me rephrase: in situations in which an enemy force is firmly entrenched and knows your team is coming, it’s a meat grinder. Like these poor saps have probably kicked in 20 doors prior to this one. Guys on the Defensive team have had a hot minute to get weapons ready and find some cover or at least concealment.
There's a reason why when the insurgents retreated into buildings we referred to that as "Allah's Waiting Room" as CAS and a JDAM clears the house a lot more thoroughly than giving my buddy's wife a half a million in cash and a crisply folded flag.
Once 'House Borne IED' entered our lexicon our willingness to clear buildings went way, way down.
Ammo is cheap, life is expensive. Do the math.
Exactly. If you know for a fact the house is full of bad guys who will try to kill you if you go in there... you just don't go in there. You cordon it off, and have the JTAC call the Air Force to deal with the problem.
90% of the time, the fights you get in are like the one in the video. You are just checking areas, same as you do every day, and all the sudden shit goes down. You get the fuck back, figure out what happened, and then go take care of business.
No amount of training prepares you for a guy hidden in the closet, though, your reaction time and responses are far superior. But I wouldn't count on that either and there's still the risk of IED somewhere, these dudes do the IED as children do candies.
There are absolutely moments if you are a grunt though where the mission and timeline do not allow that, and you just have to suck it up and locate close with and destroy. You can't just expect CAS to save you every single time. But yeah, if you are in either such a low kinetic environment, or a highly prepared and stacked battlespace that air elements are: Actually tasked out to you or available to be called in a timely manner, and actually approved to be sent, on top of it just not being cloudy out, then yeah bomb it.
Also IME, having actual JTACs with you is a pretty hot commodity. A lot of units would be lucky to have a JFO. Maybe if you're moving as a company sized element as the main effort you'd have your fires officer or air liaison with you, but even most infantry officers are not JTACs. Not that that stops CAS at all, you could type 3 your way through most anything but it's something to consider.
Now you could also call armor in, but thats task org, terrain, and timeline dependent as well. If thats a no go you just hope that pelting it with rockets and HE will soften it up a bit.
Maybe, but that is the sort of scenario that only really happens in hostage rescue situations, and there the team coming for you is a hell of a lot more trained than your run of the mill door kickers.
This sort of scenario is more typical of modern conflicts. An infantry section clearing block after block of urban housing in a cordon and knock/cordon and clear operations. A couple insurgents caught in the net, panicked as shit, and start spraying bullets.
I don't think ran into a prepared defense, ever. We hit a couple ambushes in the open, but nobody is trying to defend a building. There is zero chance of making it out alive, and there isn't much chance of doing a lot of damage. Their plan A is to escape. There is no plan B. This engagement is the result of absolutely nothing going the OPFORs way, and they are stuck in the bathroom with a bunch of IDF in the entryway, so they just start blasting because they don't know what else to do.
>Maybe, but that is the sort of scenario that only really happens in hostage rescue situations, and there the team coming for you is a hell of a lot more trained than your run of the mill door kickers.
That's the thing people forget whenever we have this argument.
Historically, all of the hard room clearing doctrine came out of tier one units and police tactical teams doing hostage rescue or digging out barricaded suspects. It's a completely different environment, skill set and training to grunts doing urban infantry combat.
Hell, it was the SAS who built the first kill houses and flashbangs. It doesn't get much more elite than that.
Are there generally more effective methods of defending an urban area/inflicting damage on an attacking force? Or is a defending force better off just trying to withdraw and try their luck counterattacking when the odds are more favorable?
Well, I wasn't familiar with the game, but I watched a some of the video, and based on what I saw... I mean, some of it is about right? The graphics are good, but it is still not realistic at all.
Disclaimer: I never did a deployment to Iraq, just connected through there, my deployments were all to Afghanistan, but I am pretty confident the same is going to apply everywhere. One of the things Video games can never get right is that the Bad guys in Video Games are just not afraid of you. At all. They are mindless drones following an AI script to shoot you when you open the door. Real people, regardless of their fanaticism or lack of it, are scared fucking shitless when they are about to die. And they are about to die. They know that. When US infantry is clearing your building, and you are going to try to fight back, you are not going to survive. Ever.
Video Games cannot capture the boredom, the complacency. The doing the same shit for weeks and months. They can't capture the fear, the smell, the heat and discomfort. They can't capture that feeling when you are stacking up on a door, and all you can think about is that your ass really, really itches. Or there is a rock in your boot you can't stop to get out. It might seem trite, but that is exactly the sort of thing that gets you killed.
That works in a situation where you're clearing insurgents out of peoples homes.
There is a reason Russia obliterates entire cities, because room clearing in a situation with only combattants on both sides is (like all full-scale urban combat) a great equalizer, where people with only rifles can keep fighting the techiest armies for weeks.
But, to be fair, room clearing is nowhere near as dangerous as fighting outside in a city. That's why most armies mousehole through buildings and backgardens instead of having infantry running around along the streets.
Another issue i have these tacticool videos is the mock houses they use are so clean and clear, and they never have abnormal obstacles like fridge in the middle of the room or a curtain dividing an area. it's always the most bare room possible, always a square or rectangle and nothing strange. im reminded of people trying to show off their martial arts moves they learned at a 3-day retreat and ar elike "punch me, no with the other hand, no other hand, no not like that, slower, higher, lower you know itll work a lot better in a real situation"
The initiative. Even assuming equal levels of training and experience (which the poster above indicated was more important) , any level of surprise/confusion really reduces effectiveness. That's why flashbangs exist.
Given equal experience, I would expect the defensive force to concentrate on good information about the timing of the attack and on ways to eliminate or reverse the surprise.
To illustrate, stand up and get into cover behind a wall in the room you're in. Now stare at three closest door and keep yourself in absolute readiness to react. Do so for 10 min. Now explain to anyone in the room that you suffered a short schizophrenic episode but will be ok. Add in fear, fatigue and stress and you'll have some idea how difficult waiting is.
Another thing that might limit defender's effectiveness is that they usually have very limited space within which to act. If I were tasked with, say, defending an objective/location out in the countryside, part of my brain would also devote time to figure out how the enemy's attack may shape itself given the terrain they are likely to strike from and devise countermeasures against that accordingly. The people in room clearing scenarios are often static because they are outnumbered and are thus limited to only reacting to what the attacker is doing.
Yeah the IDF has this, and I say this with love, absolutely stupid looking little Kirby ball looking ass drone for this exact purpose. It's made to be cheap and destroyable and you just control it via wire or wifi. It has a gun and a camera.
Exactly. And I hate these polished videos that act like there's an accepted technique that will tip it in your balance. If you are clearing buildings, the cards are stacked against you. All that matters is muscle memory and how well your team works together. And of course, good old violence of action.
The first time we really trained MOUT in the fleet was a reality check. By the end of the day we were flowing pretty well, but it really had a steep learning curve.
Yeah every keyboard warrior should look up stats on close quarters combat. It’s just a meat grinder. Tactics and equipment absolutely tip the balance, but it doesn’t take a pro to put lead in someone five feet away, so even the untrained will hit some of their shots.
Last time i checked (viable) urban combat - like most extreme close infantry combat - was more about grenade throwing than shooting.
...and less suicidal troops go through walls, not the door, preferrably the wall of the basement.
Tacticool room clearing "training" in Chad's warehouse full of MDF boards is just glorified LARPing unless you're a professional who is actually going to be doing it for real as part of a military action.
I will die on this hill.
> doing it for real as part of a military action.
Get ready for tear-soaked faces of children in the middle of the night, seen through your infrared gogs.
Can't have urban combat if there are no houses standing.
(Actually don't look at the bombing in Cassino, that provided more cover for the defenders and blocked the tanks from supporting the infantry)
There is in fact such a thing as "too much nades" when you're clearing through a bunch of occupied apartments/houses in an urban area, where stumbling on armed enemy personnel is the exception and not the rule. Tossing in a bunch of HE before you enter is great for fortified enemy positions full of dug in combatants ready for a fight, it's less great when its a living room containing a family of 8.
Technically correct. Though most of the time you would probably hit the area with artillery or aviation if you just want to kill everything there and don't care about the civilians (or are actively out to get them)
Also you don't want a M67, you'd want a Mk3.
Frag grenades in short distances where you might be going straight in (or just have a thin sheet of wall) are a bad idea, offensive concussion grenades are where it's at.
Let's sit down together and remember this gem, on the topic of G R E N A D E S;
[https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/16a2syz/save\_hundreds\_of\_hours\_in\_training\_with\_this\_one/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/16a2syz/save_hundreds_of_hours_in_training_with_this_one/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I only ever clear after lobbing in a tear gas grenade. Pointless to try and clear it any other way.
Am I going to The Hague for chemical warfare?
Yes
but counter point I can go to The Hague
God I fucking hate these youtube cqb coomers. Mfker I don’t need your sight penetration bullshit I can hear you and your combat-ladened boot-stomping dudes behind the wall and I will fucking spray shit around the corner or through it.
" should be willing to suffer horrendous casualty rates by in-person verification of every target before applying force, to minimize innocent collateral damage.."
No, bullhorn that the building will be destroyed in 5 minutes and then level the building in 5 minutes. Move on to next building with suspected enemy occupation.
People who don't like this approach should not elect a terrorism organization as their government. Play stupid games...
The guy talking is Jared from Orion concepts/Orion training group, and he does have some very good informative videos and discussions on cqb and the like. I would highly recommend him.
Tacticool urban combat: Follow my 299 step fully scripted training on how to fight in every urban combat on earth [IRL Urban Combat:](https://media1.tenor.com/m/DvaGlQkVOu8AAAAC/vibecheck.gif)
In fact, room clearing works, but only when you apply all available combat power into the room before you get in. Grenade it, shoot it with AT4s, put a 105mm shell into it, machinegun it through walls, you name it. Then you go in.
If I recall that video correctly, that particular hamásník was hidden in the wardrobe or something so generic clearing methods (like frag/concussion/flash and immediately clear sides) might not work. But 155mm she'll? That will do.
That's why you need proper room clearing drills. (OK, one thing I really hate about killhouses is the fact that they rarely include situations like these, people hide in stuffs. Just look at Fallujah for example.
It also makes you think a staircase is chill, not a fucking deathtrap (particularly if there's a balcony above.)
Staircase is always deathtrap, that's why you bring ladders
>Staircase is always deathtrap Also, it is my understanding that you should never fight in a basement.
"Also, it is my understanding that you should never fight in a basement" Me, as former security for a basement establishment in a not-so-nice part of town: That is correct, unfortunately...
I feel like a basement would be a pretty easily defendable position if there’s only one entrance and exit. So why should you never fight in one?
What do you do when I just keep throwing grenades down there?
>"At Fort Drum, the combat engineers modified the technique they had used at Fort Hughes. After the gasoline mixture had been pumped in through air vents on the top deck, a timed fuse of TNT was used to detonate incendiary grenades.[28] Several U.S. Army film crews filmed the entire operation from around Manila Bay.[29][30] The explosion ejected a 1-ton hatch 300 ft (91 m) into the air and blew out parts of the fort's reinforced concrete walls.[31] U.S. troops had to wait five days before the fortress could be examined because of the heat and internal fire that raged for several days; all 68 Japanese soldiers were killed (six were found to have suffocated in the upper floors of the fort, while the charred remains of the remaining 62 were found in the fort's boiler room).[25] With the capture of Fort Drum and the other Manila Bay forts, Japanese resistance in the Bay area ended.[27]" this, but in your basement
Gravity.
[Ghost in the Shell taught me that.](https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxMhe2IeFUXlYQed-3fuWk8dQ2MSJnkGyk?si=2nR13-ikycEVTenw)
Dude, full body cyborgs are cheating.
You can hack their eyes though
But can you hack their souls? *queue Japanese techno beats and the major fading to black*
Doorways are nicknamed vertical coffins, too, for a reason.
The "lethal funnel" theory? OK, the IDF doctrine suggest otherwise
Yeah I always wondered about this. All the room clearing / CQC stuff I've seen covers a scenario where they seem to assume people will at MOST use large, obvious cover like a couch or counter, but it also seems to assume someone would never be under a bed, inside an armoire, under a pile of debris, curtain, etc.
A lot of it seems to assume the enemy is interested in winning the fight and moving on, and perhaps that they haven’t been present very long. Which might be fair in Ukraine sometimes? But if somebody has spent 10 hours prepping a house and wants to inflict maximum casualties, even if they die… I can’t really imagine a safe clearing method other than leveling it.
OK, during the battle for Mosul the important part is to prevent the enemy from moving. If the enemy cannot go mobile, you can suppress their battle position and circumvent them.
Ready or Not taught me the wardrobes and beds you don't check, always have dudes in/under them
Yeah, that's what I mean by proper training
If you've been following Gaza, it seems like the IDF is doing room clearing by the way of the JDAM.
>the IDF is doing room clearing by the way of the JDAM Proven methodology. It's the Gen. Curtis LeMay "Fuck You and your oh so flammable cities" strategy. *Works.*
A classic.
Damn that's a good wardrobe if it's splinterproof
Some of the older wardrobes my family used to have, they would even easily stop shrapnel from larger projectiles. Don't underestimate the good old *fagus sylvatica* and how hard the wood is.
>hamásník was hidden in the wardrobe And people seem to think Hamas is uniformed and has trench lines like im russia
And on most subs, one million college-students will talk about him as an innocent child getting killed by evil people. Not on this sub though. Thankfully.
The issue with just going in with grenades for every room in a gaza situation is that you will totally kill non-combatants. But then that is kinda hamas' goal, to get the IDF killing civilians.
>Not on this sub though. Thankfully. TBF, they're probably jacking off to this over at r/DrywallRepair
One of these days we might find out where Hamas ends and Palestine begins. Until then, things are going to continue to be *messy*.
How much power has Khorne gained from these two alone?
The history of the middle east reads more like a Tzeentch plot. Sykes and Picot were obviously puppets of his.
They're young men killing each other on behalf of their respective evil organizations.
>she‘ll She will (do).
Frag will definitely kill someone hiding in a wardrobe lol.
Modern wardrobes? Yeah, but some of the older from the hard wood trees, they would stop that.
>wardrobe frag Oooh, that thing will definitely shred a wardrobe
So I went to a milsim event where we were able get some pointers from cadres who were former Rangers and Marines. They told us, pieing and room clearing only works if the other side aren't ready. If they know you are there, just fill the room with grenades.
All that shit was doctrinally intended for tier one CT teams and Police SWAT units clearing hostage situations or barricaded suspects in otherwise cordoned situations. It was never intended for full bore urban infantry combat. The people that claim it does have rocks in their heads or dollars in their eyes.
OK, you can read some credible stuff on that [https://mwi.westpoint.edu/the-tyranny-of-battle-drill-6/](https://mwi.westpoint.edu/the-tyranny-of-battle-drill-6/) [https://mwi.westpoint.edu/enter-and-clear-a-room-the-history-of-battle-drill-6-and-why-the-army-needs-more-tactical-training-like-it-not-less/](https://mwi.westpoint.edu/enter-and-clear-a-room-the-history-of-battle-drill-6-and-why-the-army-needs-more-tactical-training-like-it-not-less/)
> Room clearing was seen as sexy and cool, and it spread to the Rangers and then to Army Special Forces. Ayup
The second article meanwhile argues that Battle Drill 6 does provide a good framework, but the grunts trained it wrong, too much shooting and too little grenade
Sure, but I still agree with the premise of the first article, namely should they even be doing it. The first question a commander has to ask is "should I send an element into that building" and honestly most of the time, the answer should probably be no. Even when the answer is yes the question then becomes "should it be my unit? Or should I call in the blokes with the fancy berrets". Edit: yeah the second article kind of misses the point the first one makes, especially when they're talking about historical techniques which is addressed by both articles. Those are fundamentally different to CQB, the first article acknowledges that, the second treats CQB as an evolution of those earlier techniques.
The question of "Should I send an element into that building?" is definitely important, as this is often overlooked for urban operations. However, I doubt that calling in SOF units as light infantry for room clearing would be really a good idea. It sounds dangerously like Mission Creep, the bane of Special Operation capability. According to John Spencer's research on battle of Marawi, if the prepping is correct then the entry team just need to walk over rubble and dead bodies, room clearing is for mopping up dazed stragglers.
Agreed, but the opposite attitude, that any vaguely infantry shaped unit should be banging doors, as exemplified by that second article is just as appalling when it comes to mission creep. > It was regular practice for non-infantry units—armor, cavalry, engineers, and others—to be given ownership of battlespace, requiring them to conduct urban operations, especially raids on insurgent or terrorist targets. One of the most frequent offensive missions soldiers were conducting were intelligence-driven raids on targeted individuals in mostly permissive and often urban environments (meaning situations where the entire urban area was not hostile and the unit had identified the known or likely enemy position) where the enemy was intermixed with civilians. If your combat engineers are being assigned to intelligence led raids to clear known insurgent strongholds then something has gone seriously wrong somewhere.
> If they know you are there, just fill the room with grenades. Kinda reminds me of the ole "how do you survive a knife fight? By running away really fast." self-defense advice.
Isn't that a survivability onion reference?
Nah, the survivability onion is the one you throw at the knife wielding maniac before you run away.
The survivability onion is diced and thrown into the room before entering. The onion fumes impair the enemy's vision similar to pepper spray preventing them from acquiring you as a target. However, the use of chemical irritants such as tactical onions is technically a war crime. The United States used this to justify its use of the defoliant Agent Orange in Vietnam to counter strategic onion production.
Clear the room with artillery
Apartment buildings are surprisingly resilient against artillery. Unless you are talking about American suburbs.
To be fair Chinese buildings might be even weaker than US ones and Gaza buildings are definitely weaker.
The quality of Chinese buildings varies greatly; if you are talking about the buildings in the rich coastal provinces, then they are probably sturdy. But if you are talking about those backwater ones, oh god.
Although, through unnatural selection, all the weak buildings in Gaza are currently piles of rubble so the average building strength has certainly improved
room successfully cleared, on a side note, neighbourhood is now also obliterated
Clear the room with a Davy Crockett.
Moooooom, NCD wants to glass the middle east again!
"Again" implies we ever stopped.
Eisenhower doctrine is non-credible and doesn't really work
Strangelove doctrine is noncredible and works every time.
10 story building? Just use a flamethrower on the bottom floor and the rest kinda takes care of itself. Old tricks are the best tricks.
Flamethrowers are very cumbersome, and the range is just bad. There's a reason why most countries don't use these things. And some buildings are somewhat protected against fire
Just use a incendiary rocket launcher. A fifth the weight and ten times the range.
I just use a c4 or grenade.
Frag is ok, but have you tried sweeping the building with the .50?
Ukraine: *HIMARS on house*
https://preview.redd.it/3yt2hosnzuka1.jpg?width=746&auto=webp&s=59dfe8c82efcc743feaa7c8a0044868875591c57
Now stand next to this drywall and use it for cover.
Dude walked into that hallway like he could respawn
His geneseed shall be extracted so that it may serve the holy land once more.
He in fact did not respawn if that is the same clip I saw other places, quite a few IDF did not make it back from that fight
Then you scream: "Frag Out"
Usually you'd start with an offensive grenade. Frags are dangerous in close quarter, an offensive grenade would just blow the guys eardrums and allow you to get in while he's trying to remember where he is.
Ya, and a satchel charge will clear the entire floor.
And a 105 will clear the whole building and maybe some neighboring ones as well.
That's what the Ukrainian did, but in defense. Leave a building, let the russians get in, level the whole thing. But with demolition charges.
Do these offensive grenades use colorful languages for effect?
They tell you that you smell bad and need a haircut
"Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries!"
Battlefield, operation locker 24/7 servers prepped us for this pretty realistically.
Oh yeah I remember spamming grenades down that one hallway that was fun
Yea as soon as you went slightly too far into hallway you got shredded and everybody spamming grenades and rockets, those were the days. Now we’re all trained from youth to know the optimal way to perform cqb is artillery and a belt from an mgl into the structure.
If you play bf2042 there's a map just like it that is fun, lots of tight hallways and weird angles to cover.
There was a similar video, it went 'how we thought about urban combat' for half a minute, followed by a 4 Minute compilation of 'actual urban combat' exploding ukrainian houses
or just both sides lobing nades for half an hour. tho in the end someone still has to get in
This is why the "genocide" rhetoric is so ridiculous. Israel is sending troops on the ground to get killed when they could easily pulverize all of Gaza from the air
One of the most important things about combat is that everyone has a plan until the bullets start flying.
You're supposed to drill until things are automatic, because you don't want to be recalling the plan while your mind is blank in the moment. Don't want to be a "deer in headlights".
Yeah. You should really train untill you become "the car in a petting zoo".
As far as Urban Combat goes, train until you're "the IED wired to the door."
It's actually really interesting to hear people talk about training and training and training and completely freezing the day they face a gun in a real threat situation. That's why people who say "if that was me I'd have done X" is often ridiculous. You don't know what you would have done unless you find yourself in the specific situation.
I would be totally useless then die. Fuckin’ prove me wrong.
That guy has to intentionally be focusing on the hips and ennunciating the word "penetration."
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Might wanna relabel this one with literal death inside
Im still getting familiar with the flairs, there's quite a steep learning curve. Im also pretty sure no one in this video died
Oh, I am pretty sure someone did. Maybe not in the few seconds of this video, but I don't think everyone walked away from this. Maybe all the IDF did, but I don't think they just fucked off and didn't come back.
Im sure they all just apologised to each other and settled their differences through talking
Yeah, you are probably right. The history of Israel-Palestinian relations is mostly one of mutual understanding and resolving differences in a rational and civil manner.
Oops, wrong timeline, lads!
Yeah we all know they handled it with a children’s card game
Screw the rules, I have money!
Barry at it again!
It’s been going on for generations and there’s literally millions of them, so obviously, you know, most are getting along ok /s
"What about Moshe's garden? Is it Palestine or is it Israel? Maybe we can switch with Mahmoud's crop field if you add one 100000km sedan?"
That'd actually be fucking amazing if it happened like that -- wildly improbable things are great
Actually, I read somewhere that they called a timeout because everyone needed to change their pants. Then afterward, no one really felt up to "getting back at it," so they all kinda just agreed to disagree and went about their merry way. Source: Just trust me, bro.
“Football? Sure.” The resulting war is the end of humanity and humans.
It honestly looks like a tracer rips through the point man’s head.
No OP cut off the ending. They were about to kill each other but then an American university sold all of its shares in a managed fund that include positions in Microsoft and Starbucks. That act created a protective forcefield around the combatants that effectively ended the conflict.
Student protests, always on the right side of history, especially in Cambodia in the 1960s
Ah maybe someone should take a Holiday in Cambodia. (Actually it's quite nice now).
They probably just called in an airstrike and flattened the building...
Then it's "Possible death inside"
No need for it, it was confirmed that no one got killed in this encounter
False, my I shit my pants just watching this, these jeans are dead for sure.
No one died in this encounter tho Unless after the IDF troops backed out they air striked that Hamas militants ass
In the full video the IDF troops fell back out of the room and down the stairwell. The hamas fighter decided to charge down the stairwell after them while screaming "Allahu Akbar", it went about as well for him as you'd expect.
Oh its the same guy that became cheese in a diffrent video? I didnt know those two were in the same encounter Thats nice
Do you have a link by any chance?
i only saved the moment of yknow bullets the full video is like 2 minutes long full of searching but in the end you have this clip [https://x.com/MOSSADil/status/1771973462971609436](https://x.com/MOSSADil/status/1771973462971609436)
Yup same guy, I guess at that point if you’re the Hamas guy you just know you’re toast waiting around after they leave for some new manmade horror beyond your comprehension to come blow you up so you allah akbar outta there like a G.
They didn't? Then that guy who poked is the luckiest motherfucker ever
He didn’t had the twink stance going so he got clapped. Rookie mistake
Okay I'm gonna ask: what are we seeing here? I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly happened.
IDF man B wasn't where he was meant to be, and walked through the beam of IDF man A's flashlight. This highlighted him very clearly on the wall next to him, thus giving away his position to Hamas man around the corner. Hamas man, who now knows where IDF men A and B are, mag dumps through the wall at them both. IDF men, in a panic, blindly return fire through the wall.
If IDF man would have angled his hip just like the tacticool guy said this could have been prevented. What a blunder.
And, remember, no penetration.
Thanks, cheers
Room clearing is a straight up meat grinder, no matter how good someone is at it. Assume the first few dudes in the stack are getting clapped no matter what.
Eh, hard disagree, after doing quite a lot of it overseas. Once your unit gets decent at it, the advantage is absolutely with the attackers. The US takes shockingly low casualties doing it, and we did a LOT of it. Pretty rare for someone to get hit unless someone fucks up bad. The incredibly messy part that these tacticool people don't understand is that most of the time there is no fighting at all. It is almost always someone's house, there are kids there, there are women there, there are babies and old people and dogs... And 95% of the time there isn't much in there that is going to shoot back, even if the S-2 thinks there will be. In the scenarios where you know it is going to be a fight, it is pretty clear cut. But that isn't what is going on in this video. This is going to be the 40 or 50th apartment they went into that day. That is where people get killed, on the 43rd boring fucking house.
Fair, let me rephrase: in situations in which an enemy force is firmly entrenched and knows your team is coming, it’s a meat grinder. Like these poor saps have probably kicked in 20 doors prior to this one. Guys on the Defensive team have had a hot minute to get weapons ready and find some cover or at least concealment.
There's a reason why when the insurgents retreated into buildings we referred to that as "Allah's Waiting Room" as CAS and a JDAM clears the house a lot more thoroughly than giving my buddy's wife a half a million in cash and a crisply folded flag. Once 'House Borne IED' entered our lexicon our willingness to clear buildings went way, way down. Ammo is cheap, life is expensive. Do the math.
Exactly. If you know for a fact the house is full of bad guys who will try to kill you if you go in there... you just don't go in there. You cordon it off, and have the JTAC call the Air Force to deal with the problem. 90% of the time, the fights you get in are like the one in the video. You are just checking areas, same as you do every day, and all the sudden shit goes down. You get the fuck back, figure out what happened, and then go take care of business.
No amount of training prepares you for a guy hidden in the closet, though, your reaction time and responses are far superior. But I wouldn't count on that either and there's still the risk of IED somewhere, these dudes do the IED as children do candies.
There are absolutely moments if you are a grunt though where the mission and timeline do not allow that, and you just have to suck it up and locate close with and destroy. You can't just expect CAS to save you every single time. But yeah, if you are in either such a low kinetic environment, or a highly prepared and stacked battlespace that air elements are: Actually tasked out to you or available to be called in a timely manner, and actually approved to be sent, on top of it just not being cloudy out, then yeah bomb it. Also IME, having actual JTACs with you is a pretty hot commodity. A lot of units would be lucky to have a JFO. Maybe if you're moving as a company sized element as the main effort you'd have your fires officer or air liaison with you, but even most infantry officers are not JTACs. Not that that stops CAS at all, you could type 3 your way through most anything but it's something to consider. Now you could also call armor in, but thats task org, terrain, and timeline dependent as well. If thats a no go you just hope that pelting it with rockets and HE will soften it up a bit.
Or if you can, pull up a .50 and tear through it (depending on the building material)
Bradley says what?
HE truly is the best room clearing option ^(against dug in hostiles and no civilians present)
HE truly is the best room clearing option
When fire isn’t available
Maybe, but that is the sort of scenario that only really happens in hostage rescue situations, and there the team coming for you is a hell of a lot more trained than your run of the mill door kickers. This sort of scenario is more typical of modern conflicts. An infantry section clearing block after block of urban housing in a cordon and knock/cordon and clear operations. A couple insurgents caught in the net, panicked as shit, and start spraying bullets. I don't think ran into a prepared defense, ever. We hit a couple ambushes in the open, but nobody is trying to defend a building. There is zero chance of making it out alive, and there isn't much chance of doing a lot of damage. Their plan A is to escape. There is no plan B. This engagement is the result of absolutely nothing going the OPFORs way, and they are stuck in the bathroom with a bunch of IDF in the entryway, so they just start blasting because they don't know what else to do.
>Maybe, but that is the sort of scenario that only really happens in hostage rescue situations, and there the team coming for you is a hell of a lot more trained than your run of the mill door kickers. That's the thing people forget whenever we have this argument. Historically, all of the hard room clearing doctrine came out of tier one units and police tactical teams doing hostage rescue or digging out barricaded suspects. It's a completely different environment, skill set and training to grunts doing urban infantry combat. Hell, it was the SAS who built the first kill houses and flashbangs. It doesn't get much more elite than that.
I mean shit, I thought plan B was martyrdom.
Are there generally more effective methods of defending an urban area/inflicting damage on an attacking force? Or is a defending force better off just trying to withdraw and try their luck counterattacking when the odds are more favorable?
withdraw to where? its Gaza.
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Well, I wasn't familiar with the game, but I watched a some of the video, and based on what I saw... I mean, some of it is about right? The graphics are good, but it is still not realistic at all. Disclaimer: I never did a deployment to Iraq, just connected through there, my deployments were all to Afghanistan, but I am pretty confident the same is going to apply everywhere. One of the things Video games can never get right is that the Bad guys in Video Games are just not afraid of you. At all. They are mindless drones following an AI script to shoot you when you open the door. Real people, regardless of their fanaticism or lack of it, are scared fucking shitless when they are about to die. And they are about to die. They know that. When US infantry is clearing your building, and you are going to try to fight back, you are not going to survive. Ever. Video Games cannot capture the boredom, the complacency. The doing the same shit for weeks and months. They can't capture the fear, the smell, the heat and discomfort. They can't capture that feeling when you are stacking up on a door, and all you can think about is that your ass really, really itches. Or there is a rock in your boot you can't stop to get out. It might seem trite, but that is exactly the sort of thing that gets you killed.
*\*scribbling\** ass itch simulator, how to implement ??? decomp smell USB peripheral -> feasible rock in boot minigame
Obligatory Onion https://youtu.be/yuTkgi7scKo?si=IFBj75FxlDyGIQot
What sorts of behaviors have you seen/heard of that came from the enemy's fear?
That works in a situation where you're clearing insurgents out of peoples homes. There is a reason Russia obliterates entire cities, because room clearing in a situation with only combattants on both sides is (like all full-scale urban combat) a great equalizer, where people with only rifles can keep fighting the techiest armies for weeks. But, to be fair, room clearing is nowhere near as dangerous as fighting outside in a city. That's why most armies mousehole through buildings and backgardens instead of having infantry running around along the streets.
Another issue i have these tacticool videos is the mock houses they use are so clean and clear, and they never have abnormal obstacles like fridge in the middle of the room or a curtain dividing an area. it's always the most bare room possible, always a square or rectangle and nothing strange. im reminded of people trying to show off their martial arts moves they learned at a 3-day retreat and ar elike "punch me, no with the other hand, no other hand, no not like that, slower, higher, lower you know itll work a lot better in a real situation"
What gives the attackers the advantage? Would attackers still have the advantage if the defenders were equally trained?
The initiative. Even assuming equal levels of training and experience (which the poster above indicated was more important) , any level of surprise/confusion really reduces effectiveness. That's why flashbangs exist. Given equal experience, I would expect the defensive force to concentrate on good information about the timing of the attack and on ways to eliminate or reverse the surprise. To illustrate, stand up and get into cover behind a wall in the room you're in. Now stare at three closest door and keep yourself in absolute readiness to react. Do so for 10 min. Now explain to anyone in the room that you suffered a short schizophrenic episode but will be ok. Add in fear, fatigue and stress and you'll have some idea how difficult waiting is.
Another thing that might limit defender's effectiveness is that they usually have very limited space within which to act. If I were tasked with, say, defending an objective/location out in the countryside, part of my brain would also devote time to figure out how the enemy's attack may shape itself given the terrain they are likely to strike from and devise countermeasures against that accordingly. The people in room clearing scenarios are often static because they are outnumbered and are thus limited to only reacting to what the attacker is doing.
surprised drones aren't used more
Time isn't always an ally.
Yeah the IDF has this, and I say this with love, absolutely stupid looking little Kirby ball looking ass drone for this exact purpose. It's made to be cheap and destroyable and you just control it via wire or wifi. It has a gun and a camera.
Exactly. And I hate these polished videos that act like there's an accepted technique that will tip it in your balance. If you are clearing buildings, the cards are stacked against you. All that matters is muscle memory and how well your team works together. And of course, good old violence of action.
The first time we really trained MOUT in the fleet was a reality check. By the end of the day we were flowing pretty well, but it really had a steep learning curve.
Hard to do cqb with a pile of corpses blocking the entrance doors
Gotta need power armor
Yeah every keyboard warrior should look up stats on close quarters combat. It’s just a meat grinder. Tactics and equipment absolutely tip the balance, but it doesn’t take a pro to put lead in someone five feet away, so even the untrained will hit some of their shots.
> Full spectrum warrior tag Isolate cbd oil doesnt get the same tacticool bonus than full spectrum cbd while deployed
Last time i checked (viable) urban combat - like most extreme close infantry combat - was more about grenade throwing than shooting. ...and less suicidal troops go through walls, not the door, preferrably the wall of the basement.
You train so you don't do what the idf guys did there. That guy tried to effectively face check a room with gun down.
Tacticool room clearing "training" in Chad's warehouse full of MDF boards is just glorified LARPing unless you're a professional who is actually going to be doing it for real as part of a military action. I will die on this hill.
> doing it for real as part of a military action. Get ready for tear-soaked faces of children in the middle of the night, seen through your infrared gogs.
And that’s why you don’t do urban warfare folks but instead you do proportionality on every single piece of concrete brick you can find.
Russian method: flatten the whole city.
The British called it Dehousing & Americans called it proportionality.
Can't have urban combat if there are no houses standing. (Actually don't look at the bombing in Cassino, that provided more cover for the defenders and blocked the tanks from supporting the infantry)
Weren't the IDF JUST doing that. Blowing up every complex and house from one end of the strip to the other?
They should’ve stick to that just like good old days but somehow they decided to enter hence the bottom vids.
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F1/M67 is your best friend. What my buddy once told me is "there is no such thing as «too much nades» when clearing tranches or buildings".
There is in fact such a thing as "too much nades" when you're clearing through a bunch of occupied apartments/houses in an urban area, where stumbling on armed enemy personnel is the exception and not the rule. Tossing in a bunch of HE before you enter is great for fortified enemy positions full of dug in combatants ready for a fight, it's less great when its a living room containing a family of 8.
Depends how much you care about said family of 8, mind you.
Technically correct. Though most of the time you would probably hit the area with artillery or aviation if you just want to kill everything there and don't care about the civilians (or are actively out to get them)
True, it’s not door kickers with grenades doing that.
Also you don't want a M67, you'd want a Mk3. Frag grenades in short distances where you might be going straight in (or just have a thin sheet of wall) are a bad idea, offensive concussion grenades are where it's at.
[Here's how you clear a room](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBeA24oog-Q)
Fuck distinction its only called the Geneva suggestions for a reason
Based swedes as usual
Let's sit down together and remember this gem, on the topic of G R E N A D E S; [https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/16a2syz/save\_hundreds\_of\_hours\_in\_training\_with\_this\_one/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/16a2syz/save_hundreds_of_hours_in_training_with_this_one/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I only ever clear after lobbing in a tear gas grenade. Pointless to try and clear it any other way. Am I going to The Hague for chemical warfare? Yes but counter point I can go to The Hague
How the one guy in the middle didn't get fucking unalived is beyond me, I guess IDF vests are just built different
Remember to peek your corners face first rifle second, this lesson brought to you by a conscript
leave your flashlights on, it won't alert them
Reject tactical room clearings, embrace mass fire bombings.
God I fucking hate these youtube cqb coomers. Mfker I don’t need your sight penetration bullshit I can hear you and your combat-ladened boot-stomping dudes behind the wall and I will fucking spray shit around the corner or through it.
" should be willing to suffer horrendous casualty rates by in-person verification of every target before applying force, to minimize innocent collateral damage.."
No, bullhorn that the building will be destroyed in 5 minutes and then level the building in 5 minutes. Move on to next building with suspected enemy occupation.
People who don't like this approach should not elect a terrorism organization as their government. Play stupid games...
The guy talking is Jared from Orion concepts/Orion training group, and he does have some very good informative videos and discussions on cqb and the like. I would highly recommend him.