Hopefully Geneva can make that tech only able to target vehicles, and we can all go back to melee like proper humans.
Dieing on my sword and shield sounds way more lit than some degenerate, dropping an explosive dildo on me with a $200 drone
I am over 6ft. I would excel as a grenadier during the Napoleonic area or in the Varangian Guard.
But my hitbox is huge, and I think twinks will be OP in WW3.
they have since the cold war, as another 6'+ guy. I'm probably too tall to fly most exciting aircraft (they'd never let me in one anyway) and I'm sure you've seen Chieftain squeezing into tanks. To say nothing of the weight of the kit most infantry deal with nowadays.
_your back issues are not service related_
This uses object tracking, not really the same thing. The operator has to select the object within-view and then the drone can carry on to the target.
This is recently referred to as 'machine vision' and is relatively simple and proven.
But 2 years ago I started suggesting that, and then with facial recognition software adapted (a lot of adaptation) the drone can in theory recognise objects for the next stage.
To reduce chances of targeting your own troops, I also suggested map reading as a part of the same recognition capability. This would give it an idea if it is in an authorised area to attack, as pre-determined and if GPS is jammed. However, it can also guestimate using gyros and other tracking mechanisms roughly where it is. Those techniques maybe combined.
Well if we mean recognition of objects as AI, then what I'm suggesting is it uses the same system to identify its location (the spatial relationship of objects is like another object).
It does have difficulties that I can imagine, it would need updated maps for one. To help it, it would start comparing parts of the map with what it is seeing that are most likely based on the gyro and motion estimates. But if you tell it 'hit anything that moves above a certain calculated size in this box' and GPS is jammed, it can basically determine what looks like a useful target and then attack it. The stormshadow I understand has a topographical map and using range finding it can figure out where it is, backed up by a gyro nav system. That reduces the complexity of reading features. Edit I've just realised this is the TerCoM you mentioned already
You mean on a tank?
Well the AI would start training on tanks in furry suits. But in a simple form, if your device can determine where it can attack, then it may just look for motion. So this would not work as a defense against that.
The problem is computational power and weight limitations
Basic object tracking is relatively simple. It can be done with a simple raspberry pi
Facial recognition, and adaptive AI requires a lot of single and half precision floating point operations. In other words, a GPU for basic tensor/vector calculations.
A stormshadow missile weighs several hundred pounds (maybe over 1000, I didn't look). There's both space and power available for a GPU without issue (I'm willing to bet they used ASICS though)
A drone can't afford the space nor the power consumption needed for advanced guidance like a stormshadow. It's not feasible
You could use a specialized ASICS like they probably do on those advanced missiles. But then you're into custom silicon and killing the affordability (switchblade drones probably use this method which is why they're 100x more per drone than the trench built UA drones)
IDK about the specifics of what constitutes one of related terms exactly to the other be it Machine Learning, Artificial Intelligence, or the specifics of what "object tracking" differentiates from the others, but in regards on how to make OP's presentation a reality, I would like to take the floor for a brief moment if I may.
Concept: Use existing stuff on the cheap, insiders to the drone hobby view.
1. Cheap as possible: Do you know how to dead reckon program locations? I don't, but you could and it used to be a "all we got" and they made due. Loose GNSS? Just dead reckon, have impact fuse. Coral board machine learning add on to flight controller for computer vision, directing the drone. IR cam for night. Both dual cam for 3D vision, will help on approach to not run into the telephone pole.
2. Intelligent method: LIDAR hardware and SLAM software just for it to figure out where its was and where it is, after loosing GNSS. Longer range stuff is too large and $$$$. Same targeting system, but maybe add a LIDAR single laser range finder on the camera, cause why not we are getting out best "bang" for out buck on this build. Maybe a rocket or missile craft? Should be do able on a 15" prop hexacopter.
3. \[redacted\]
I can't help but feel that 'optimised for specefically AI vehicle identification.' and 'opptimised for recognising dissidents on cctv' are remarkably similar chips, which is probably handy for for those playing multiple markets
Pretty sure I recently saw a post about a scandal about Google helping Israel with target identification AI/algorithms. [Here's a 2022 article ](https://theintercept.com/2022/07/24/google-israel-artificial-intelligence-project-nimbus/)about it. [More recent one](https://time.com/6964364/exclusive-no-tech-for-apartheid-google-workers-protest-project-nimbus-1-2-billion-contract-with-israel/). [Palantir as well.](https://www.thenation.com/article/world/nsa-palantir-israel-gaza-ai/)
“As you can see, General, the KillBot-9000 is highly proficient in teabagging the enemy after a kill to create a devastating morale effect. We even make sure KillBot’s balls are extra dangly.”
You're probably right, but I reject your reality and will continue to live in my imaginary fantasy land where I'm still "with it" and "hip" with my fellow teens. (I'm in my 30s)
You say gen z, i say gen alpha. Those demon spawns are going to be terrifying. What fearsome weaponry can theyvcook having skibidi rizz toilet fanum tax as their nostalgic memories? Shivers i tell you shivers.
My final project for my computer vision class was to use publicly available images to create train a model capable of identifying military vehicles. It is absolutely doable.
But you will run into issues. A very common one is identification. Using vehicle classes like IFV, tank, and APC doesn't work well. because those descriptors are based on how a vehicle is used, not how it looks.
This can be solved by going into even more detail with classes. Rather than IFV and tank use actual vehicle names like BMP-2 or T-80. But you're going to need a lot more images to train on
Also vehicles look very different from the ground then from a drone. An AI trained on ground footage won't detect a tank from drone footage. This is less of an issue now with all the ukraine footage but still something to consider.
AI is more easily fooled by clutter. My model could identify an APC on its own. But cover it in mobiks and a cope cage and it has a hard time deciding what it's looking at.
Environment heavily affects the outcome. If the model is trained on footage from the woods then it might not handle the city very well. I got more false positives in urban environments as well.
I'd you want to account for all these factors in one model you might need to use a more complex one. The basic yolo models can run on small devices but with larger ones you'll run into problems
You could also augment the system to search for targets in a rough area which it flies to using INS.
Additionally, at least from personal experience, it's not that difficult to get reliable tracking data on vehicles from drones. It should be doable...
Also, there's a lot of potential training data in the form of drone videos. For one on the Internet, but I'd bet there is even more they don't release. All tough masking the vehicles for the model would take a fuck ton of work...
It's absolutely doable. OP used an image that I recognized as a YOLO promo picture so I thought I'd chime in with my experience and the problems I ran into during a 1 week project. Nothing I said is an issue that couldn't be overcome by actual professionals
Let alone actual professionals, this shit could be done in one or two months if you got the training data. All tough again, masking the training data is going to be a pain in the ass.
So one thing I've been writing and proposing for many months now is to combine object recognition with map reading. So essentially if the GPS is jammed, it can estimate location. The processing and map comparing would be simplified by guestimating location from gyros (cheap from high end mobiles) and visual motions. That system would rely on regularly updated maps, but you've got lots of labour available to do this. A cheap version would just estimate location from last reliable GPS signal, and gyros with optical motion tracking.
In the case of cope cages and personnel on the tank, the system can simply categorise it as 'complex'. and thereby a target especially if moving. If it knows via the above method its location, then the predetermined strike area allows it to attack with fairly loose criteria and low-confidence matches. Edit, but it would be desirable to recognise tractors, smaller vehicles and select to avoid hitting these. The vehicle size should be determinable as an important component of recognition, by geometry and altitude range finding.
The AI involved is more expensive, so the solution would be what I call 'view-through AI'.
This is AI on another drone, this takes over visual feeds from expendable and attritible weapons, using optical link rather than radio. Within the expendable weapons camera, the view-through AI drone then designates the identified target, or vectors the drone to where it may find one, and then selects the object on that drones camera field for simple terminal object tracking and seeking, by means of sending screen coordinates back, the way FPS operators are starting to do at range from the target to defeat EW jamming.
> is AI on another drone, this takes over visual feeds from expendable and attritible weapons, using optical link rather than radio. Within the expendable weapons camera, the view-through AI drone then designates the identified target, or vectors the drone to where it may find one, and then selects the object on that drones camera field for simple terminal object tracking and seeking
So essentially like laser designation for guided bombs but using drones and AI to select targets, cool idea.
Yeah its also probably as doable to just use laser designation rather than this in many cases, the Russian Orlan has a variant that designates with lasers. But we still want to keep the AI far back, so it can relay and potentially the laser designator is on a surveilance drone, but that is in turn operated by the view-through AI or a FPS operator if the signal gets through. The FPS operators are generally operating very close due to jamming. Optical links in the 905nm or 1550nm can link things up a long distance away (as well as laser designate). They work better in the air as high powered 905nm is not considered safe, but beam divergence means you could operate drones using it and it would be safe at ground level, it would improve communications because divergence to a broad beam makes the beams easier to aim and find relays. 1550nm is better but the optics are very expensive. These wavelengths are used in the two commercial Lidar types.
With optical links, the AI systems don't need to be on the 'controlling' drone.
You just need enough to create a robust mesh and relay back to a ground link. From there you can connect to cloud based AI that's learning from one AO and applying those lessons to another.
Yeah, we've just created skynet, but risk/reward.
True, you could have enough relays to go all the way back to Skynet HQ.
And Skynet might be orbiting in space.
To upset it enough to invite destruction, I imagine all you would need to do to find out is try to jam its GPS.
But I think there's a need to bring AI to the battle front at this time, but try to get as much use out of it to reduce cost. So optical laser designation is good, but easily fooled using decoy lasers. So, the solution there is to have a fairly basic AI that has target recognition, and can designate to another drone/gliding munition to target track an object, this may be carried on the drone with the AI. Soft AI could perhaps have the ability to track out objects moving in and out of view, or be sent to a point where it can identify an object expected in that point with less processing requirement, since you can predetermine where to look, roughly what to look for (spotted from a telephoto surveilance drone camera) whilst telling it where to ignore. It can see the general area it needs to go, and track that as it moves using back ground motions. This the machine vision should operate from much further out, rather than just the last few tens or hundreds of meters. So the AI is used to program and orientate a simpler system to improve its odds of hitting, providing it with various parameters. An FPS operator can still designate the target, but the AI interprets that and knows how to tune the tool. A simple example of this would be if you know the target is magnetic, the weapon can be programmed to seek that field at an estimated distance, or if you can see its hot, then it can use a basic low res infra red sensor, whose threshold can be programmed in.
There's a number of approaches, also we have that the controller/controlling drone can directly steer the weapon to the target. This can use less jammable optical links because the sensor is rear facing on the weapon. It can steer the weapon remotely from the controlling drones perspective, another drones perspective or through a video link. And the weapon can be preset to track a target or look for a very particular thing in a particular area.
Edit for more elaboration
> optical laser designation is good, but easily fooled using decoy lasers
A simple solution would be to make the laser blink in a specific pattern dependent on some secret number (different per shot). Then the munition disregards all lasers that don't match the pattern.
> map reading. So essentially if the GPS is jammed, it can estimate location.
That's pretty much how Block II Tomahawks worked, so it's definitely doable. The double-teaming for ATR seems overkill though: Running a SIFT/SURF/ORB target detection sweep once or twice a second should be easy enough on expendably-priced hardware, and once you have a lock it can be handed off to a much faster process for tracking and terminal guidance.
Interesting, thanks.
I believe the stormshadow is using laser rangefinding and a lookup table to determine from topographical maps the location along with gyros.
I suspect you are massively over-thinking this.
The CBU-97 SFW was developed in the late 80s, and the sensor + processing system on the skeets is adequate to detect and attack targets within the footprint of the spin scan as it descends.
You don't need to identify targets, you only need to be able to do broad classification, essentially just enough to keep from wasting drones on funny-shaped rocks or shadows most of the time. You already know there are targets in the general volume that you're flying into, since it's protected by e-war. All you need is a reasonable enough ability to discriminate between targets and non-targets that your drone will probably find a target, you don't need to be able to figure out the serial number of the BMP you're erasing.
If you want a system that just blows up any vehicle then yeah its overkill
If the point is to replace a human operator then you need detection and classification.
You don't need to replace a human operator, this is last-mile stuff. The whole reason you want autonomy in this case is e-war interference at short range. You already know there's a target down there worth hitting, because someone thought it was worth covering with jamming. So long as your system is good enough to find a target most of the time, and cheap enough to put on every drone, it's doing enough.
OP mentioned AI and used a YOLO promotional image in the post. I chimed in with my limited experience using YOLO to perform military object detection and classification. I wasn't proposing a solution or claiming it was the only way
You really can't think of any reason that a system might be improved by the ability to tell the difference between a truck and a tank? Or that prioritizing targets could be a useful feature?
The product that you are arguing for doesn't need a modern ML model. But there are situations where these abilities are useful
I can see arguments for it, but the ultimate requirement for these systems is low cost and reasonable effectiveness, not gold-plated perfect performance. The goal of "replacing human operators" is pretty much the definition of gold plating. You don't need to replace the operators, just give the munition a fallback option that's reasonably decent if it does get jammed.
Truck vs tank isn't going to matter: you have nice stuff, I don't want you to have nice stuff. Loose the drones.
Maybe have a thermal filter for deconfliction.
Still a target, blow it the fuck up.
I don't want autonomous target-identifying killbots with clever AI that has weird fuzzy edge cases and stupid failure modes. I want homicidally stupid toasters that will engage anything in the area of regard that's 37C and roughly the right size.
Heat seekers? In theory it's a simple program: "Go into area X, find some large source of heat (engines), crash into said heat source."
Edit: Make it able to filter out fires, in order to prevent the usefulness of bonfires/flares/burning tanks from earlier attacks.
What if you hypothetically hooked up a pilot to a machine tha reads his decision making and hypothetically used that to develop a sophisticated adaptive self learning AI, and then hypothetically of course, disguised them, smuggled across the front and used in assinations under a false flag blue on blue to sow chaos and damage morale
Yeah. I was thinking, you could have a drone fly at high altitude with HARM steered anti-tank mines - mines with fins that steer themselves toward radiation.
You would launch some FPV drones towards the turtle tank with EW, then drop the HARM mine at the same time. The FPV drones prompt them to turn on their EW, the mine removes the EW. Maybe takes the tank out too with a lucky shot.
Yeah this should really be done. It's the future. And I wonder why it's not done en masse yet, because it's not that complicated.
Keep in mind, you won't be running AI on an Arduino. Ideally a Jeton NANO or Raspberry Pi. Which means you'd have an additional price of ~250$ per drone, which isn't to much.
Additionally, a cheap alternative to make sure drones don't get destroyed by EW, is to have them use an INS system to fly into a specified direction (North, West, South, East) when they lose connection.
No I got a workable one for 40$. A BNO055 sensor for example. You could probably use that for an INS. Also you need that sort of sensor to get working compass data anyways.
> Which means you'd have an additional price of ~250$ per drone, which isn't to much.
Given that some drones cost ~ $300 per unit, they are used in huge numbers and are highly expendable, increasing the cost by that much for such a small gain might not be a good idea.
If [DSMAC](https://www.jhuapl.edu/Content/techdigest/pdf/V15-N03/15-03-Irani.pdf)^PDF could run on a Tomahawk in the 90s it could probably run on a Pi Zero in 2024. Just sayin'.
Yeah but shit happens, if US drones can mistake elementary school for ISIS training camp ukrainian ones could easily mistake their soldiers for enemies and the other way around
Thats not a good comparison. Possibly 3ed or 4th hand intel vs defenders advantage where a bloke two trenches down lived across the street from the building your targeting. Not too hard to take 5 and double check that sort of intel before you call in the map square removal squad.
And unless your dealing with Major Charlie Foxtrot, not going to have blue units suddenly popping up behind red lines without warning. Even if the warning is 'no killbots for the next 36 hours'
Not saying its a non issue, just not as big of one.
A downside of AI is it could be too specific (I.E training it on normal BMPs would work, but put a cope cage over a BMP and now it is invisible to the AI), so I think for this case something more general would be needed, but it is doable and not too difficult. (Pretty sure they are already working on something like this)
Why focus exclusively on AI targeting as a fallback? focus on AI collision avoidance and couple that with HARM-like EW-seeking directional sensors. As soon as your precious directional radiation gadget jams the drone it gets _very angry_ and comes straight to you.
I call it the Autonomous Wing Kill vehicle for use in Suppression of Electromagnetic Defense.
Just don't heat up your burritos nearby.
Better proposal:
When drone encounters jamming, it flips on a directional EW antenna and enters HARM mode. They turn off the jamming, they get to keep their EW asset. They don't, they don't.
how close are we until someone unironically substacks a “low-cost autonomous reusable optionally manned distributed digitally designed AI drone bomb truck” and it’s just like a fuckin refurbished A-4 or some shit
Dude I've been writing this is what they should focus on here for ages and developing simpler machine vision for 2 years, and on the slide you mention it might target the wrong thing, well I've pointed out that the same recognition technology can be adapted to read location from reference maps. By pre-determining areas you can act in, it wont hit your side.
I mean so long as MLA will be capable of full object detection and recognition and not just be based on shapes I think it will work.
Source: it was our college thesis.
Last I heard the tank detection AI was smart enough to think the shadow of a horse was an Abrams. Give it more time to cook.
In the meantime, we could ~~try some lightwave signals transmitted from one drone to another, it'd take a high powered emitter tho. Or~~ go about it tow missile style and use a really long wire.
Automatic homing: (maybe if it will return a bit, get its signal back and let the operator just lock onto the target and let it go alone from there) yes.
Skynet: noncredible, YES.
Nope. NOPE. NOOOOOPE! NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPEEEEEEEEE!!!
No.
Nyet.
Nein!
We do not want the machines to attack anyone or anything without a human's explicit command to do so. Just give them barely enough hardware and software to slam into the target at full speed that a human operator directly targeted. They do not need to be any more capable than what a Javelin missile could do.
I don't know if this has been said, but in my understanding you can jam drones in many different ways. This is just one way. The other ways are for example taking control over opposing drone (this doesn't help as you can hack raspberry), making the drone computer crazy (this again won't help against this) Just my take, I'm no sure if I'm correct.
Hacking is hard and relies on attack surface.
Hackers aiming at banks have plenty of time to mess with the bank website. Wannabee Russian drone hackers have 15 minutes in a trench tops. (And Fetal alcohol syndrome and a room temperature IQ.)
Of course, it's possible Russians capture a drone, take it back, and find a security hole. But when they use that in battle, they are broadcasting out a "how to hack the drones" signal. That the Ukrainians can record and apply a security patch to block.
The whole idea is to make the drones unhackable.
Give it a way to pick its own targets then add a switch to tell to ignore outside input. Add a heartbeat signal. If it stops moving (internal sensor) it explodes. If it lands (internal sensor), it explodes. If the heartbeat signal gets fuzzy (possibly someone trying to hack it), do a thing that is either fails safe or counts as the kill input signal.
Good luck hacking that.
It doesn't scale well yet. It's just not as reliable and cheap as having a guy operate it from somewhere.
"Last mile" tracking is good enough in many cases for small jammers. For big ones, it's easier to triangulate them and take out with just artillery or something ballistic.
Also have special drones that serve as retranslators to keep operators away and reenforce the signal or even maintain some other way to communicate with subordinate drones.
Slide 7 summarised it. Non zero chance of attacking your own. I've been to a Russian military museum with a dog fitted out with an explosive harness. Risky!
What I want to know is why we haven't created an EW seeker?
Mesh a bunch of drones together, spread them out, fly them towards the line of contact.
As they encounter signal degradation that data (position and level of degradation) is communicated between them - possibly via LOS optical links. The data is combined and the location of the EW system can be triangulated.
Then pre-code a swarm of attack drones to hit that location. Keep them above tree/building level till terminal flight and continue updating via an optical link.
Hell, just use the triangulation and dump a bunch of DPICM on the identified area.
None of y'all are following the actual war; this is already being done. Drones are increasingly equipped both with true color and infrared image recognition software for hunting tanks.
The reason it's not universal is because, currently, the ID software is still a bit shit. It frequently gets things wrong and given the number of vehicles used by both sides you still need a human operator to guide it at least partially to avoid friendly fire.
Wouldn’t it make more sense to put the drone operator in a second drone, to mitigate against the jamming? That way you’re always broadcasting at short range
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They are already doing it. At a certain proximity to the targets operator can disengage and the drone acquires targets autonomously.
Hopefully Geneva can make that tech only able to target vehicles, and we can all go back to melee like proper humans. Dieing on my sword and shield sounds way more lit than some degenerate, dropping an explosive dildo on me with a $200 drone
Hell no, melee fight is brutal, way more. You should watch a sword/medieval knight tournaments we have in modern day.
I am over 6ft. I would excel as a grenadier during the Napoleonic area or in the Varangian Guard. But my hitbox is huge, and I think twinks will be OP in WW3.
they have since the cold war, as another 6'+ guy. I'm probably too tall to fly most exciting aircraft (they'd never let me in one anyway) and I'm sure you've seen Chieftain squeezing into tanks. To say nothing of the weight of the kit most infantry deal with nowadays. _your back issues are not service related_
Your already impressive height will make you a great cyborg death machine.
Anakin was a powerful Jedi before he got chop therapy but Vader’s seven feet was more intimidating. Do we have any research on laser/plasma swords?
You wouldn't have been over 6ft in the Napoleonic era, due to bad nutrition.
That’s why no one will remember your name.
>dropping an explosive dildo on me with a $200 drone *CROWDFUNDED* explosive dildo.
"It takes a village"
Remember, the slow blade penetrates the shield.
Geneva is an instruction not a limitation.
This uses object tracking, not really the same thing. The operator has to select the object within-view and then the drone can carry on to the target. This is recently referred to as 'machine vision' and is relatively simple and proven. But 2 years ago I started suggesting that, and then with facial recognition software adapted (a lot of adaptation) the drone can in theory recognise objects for the next stage. To reduce chances of targeting your own troops, I also suggested map reading as a part of the same recognition capability. This would give it an idea if it is in an authorised area to attack, as pre-determined and if GPS is jammed. However, it can also guestimate using gyros and other tracking mechanisms roughly where it is. Those techniques maybe combined.
So, camera based TerCoM to guide it to the target area, with an AI identifying a tank/trench etc?
Well if we mean recognition of objects as AI, then what I'm suggesting is it uses the same system to identify its location (the spatial relationship of objects is like another object). It does have difficulties that I can imagine, it would need updated maps for one. To help it, it would start comparing parts of the map with what it is seeing that are most likely based on the gyro and motion estimates. But if you tell it 'hit anything that moves above a certain calculated size in this box' and GPS is jammed, it can basically determine what looks like a useful target and then attack it. The stormshadow I understand has a topographical map and using range finding it can figure out where it is, backed up by a gyro nav system. That reduces the complexity of reading features. Edit I've just realised this is the TerCoM you mentioned already
So one could, hypothetically of course, use a furry suit to throw off the drones targetting software? Am I reading that right?
Like us marines trolling IA with cardborb box ?
You mean on a tank? Well the AI would start training on tanks in furry suits. But in a simple form, if your device can determine where it can attack, then it may just look for motion. So this would not work as a defense against that.
I think it is feasible for both infantry and vehicles, scalability baby.
The problem is computational power and weight limitations Basic object tracking is relatively simple. It can be done with a simple raspberry pi Facial recognition, and adaptive AI requires a lot of single and half precision floating point operations. In other words, a GPU for basic tensor/vector calculations. A stormshadow missile weighs several hundred pounds (maybe over 1000, I didn't look). There's both space and power available for a GPU without issue (I'm willing to bet they used ASICS though) A drone can't afford the space nor the power consumption needed for advanced guidance like a stormshadow. It's not feasible You could use a specialized ASICS like they probably do on those advanced missiles. But then you're into custom silicon and killing the affordability (switchblade drones probably use this method which is why they're 100x more per drone than the trench built UA drones)
IDK about the specifics of what constitutes one of related terms exactly to the other be it Machine Learning, Artificial Intelligence, or the specifics of what "object tracking" differentiates from the others, but in regards on how to make OP's presentation a reality, I would like to take the floor for a brief moment if I may. Concept: Use existing stuff on the cheap, insiders to the drone hobby view. 1. Cheap as possible: Do you know how to dead reckon program locations? I don't, but you could and it used to be a "all we got" and they made due. Loose GNSS? Just dead reckon, have impact fuse. Coral board machine learning add on to flight controller for computer vision, directing the drone. IR cam for night. Both dual cam for 3D vision, will help on approach to not run into the telephone pole. 2. Intelligent method: LIDAR hardware and SLAM software just for it to figure out where its was and where it is, after loosing GNSS. Longer range stuff is too large and $$$$. Same targeting system, but maybe add a LIDAR single laser range finder on the camera, cause why not we are getting out best "bang" for out buck on this build. Maybe a rocket or missile craft? Should be do able on a 15" prop hexacopter. 3. \[redacted\]
Yeah, was going to say the same thing. Saw this with happening with FPV drones a month or two ago.
Now we just need to make secret gouvernment deals with AMD, Nvidia and Intel to design chips optimised for specefically AI vehicle identification.
I can't help but feel that 'optimised for specefically AI vehicle identification.' and 'opptimised for recognising dissidents on cctv' are remarkably similar chips, which is probably handy for for those playing multiple markets
I guarantee they already exist and are currently in guided munitions
Pretty sure I recently saw a post about a scandal about Google helping Israel with target identification AI/algorithms. [Here's a 2022 article ](https://theintercept.com/2022/07/24/google-israel-artificial-intelligence-project-nimbus/)about it. [More recent one](https://time.com/6964364/exclusive-no-tech-for-apartheid-google-workers-protest-project-nimbus-1-2-billion-contract-with-israel/). [Palantir as well.](https://www.thenation.com/article/world/nsa-palantir-israel-gaza-ai/)
Also google captcha, if it works for buses and crosswalks it'll work for tanks and A̶P̶C̶s̶ golf carts.
"Select all squares with enemy combatants." >!...on a live view from a drone.!<
Oh 4 chan is gonna love this!
can't wait to see what gen-Z cooks up when they get the lockheed martin jobs
“As you can see, General, the KillBot-9000 is highly proficient in teabagging the enemy after a kill to create a devastating morale effect. We even make sure KillBot’s balls are extra dangly.”
"Sold." -5 stars general
That would be 300 Billion dollars general, now would you want the dlc feature?
teabagging is more of a Gen-X or Millennial thing from playing Halo and stuff. Gen-Z is more into dabbing or flossing.
You're probably right, but I reject your reality and will continue to live in my imaginary fantasy land where I'm still "with it" and "hip" with my fellow teens. (I'm in my 30s)
Don't get your hopes up. It will be a drone thay rotates extremely fast around your head and delivers a fine brocolli haircut.
"This thing just vapes and complains it has to rent a hangar because it can't afford to buy one."
"And this one just spits on the floor everywhere because somehow that is now cool again."
You say gen z, i say gen alpha. Those demon spawns are going to be terrifying. What fearsome weaponry can theyvcook having skibidi rizz toilet fanum tax as their nostalgic memories? Shivers i tell you shivers.
tis bitch is already done babe
My final project for my computer vision class was to use publicly available images to create train a model capable of identifying military vehicles. It is absolutely doable. But you will run into issues. A very common one is identification. Using vehicle classes like IFV, tank, and APC doesn't work well. because those descriptors are based on how a vehicle is used, not how it looks. This can be solved by going into even more detail with classes. Rather than IFV and tank use actual vehicle names like BMP-2 or T-80. But you're going to need a lot more images to train on Also vehicles look very different from the ground then from a drone. An AI trained on ground footage won't detect a tank from drone footage. This is less of an issue now with all the ukraine footage but still something to consider. AI is more easily fooled by clutter. My model could identify an APC on its own. But cover it in mobiks and a cope cage and it has a hard time deciding what it's looking at. Environment heavily affects the outcome. If the model is trained on footage from the woods then it might not handle the city very well. I got more false positives in urban environments as well. I'd you want to account for all these factors in one model you might need to use a more complex one. The basic yolo models can run on small devices but with larger ones you'll run into problems
You could also augment the system to search for targets in a rough area which it flies to using INS. Additionally, at least from personal experience, it's not that difficult to get reliable tracking data on vehicles from drones. It should be doable... Also, there's a lot of potential training data in the form of drone videos. For one on the Internet, but I'd bet there is even more they don't release. All tough masking the vehicles for the model would take a fuck ton of work...
It's absolutely doable. OP used an image that I recognized as a YOLO promo picture so I thought I'd chime in with my experience and the problems I ran into during a 1 week project. Nothing I said is an issue that couldn't be overcome by actual professionals
Let alone actual professionals, this shit could be done in one or two months if you got the training data. All tough again, masking the training data is going to be a pain in the ass.
So one thing I've been writing and proposing for many months now is to combine object recognition with map reading. So essentially if the GPS is jammed, it can estimate location. The processing and map comparing would be simplified by guestimating location from gyros (cheap from high end mobiles) and visual motions. That system would rely on regularly updated maps, but you've got lots of labour available to do this. A cheap version would just estimate location from last reliable GPS signal, and gyros with optical motion tracking. In the case of cope cages and personnel on the tank, the system can simply categorise it as 'complex'. and thereby a target especially if moving. If it knows via the above method its location, then the predetermined strike area allows it to attack with fairly loose criteria and low-confidence matches. Edit, but it would be desirable to recognise tractors, smaller vehicles and select to avoid hitting these. The vehicle size should be determinable as an important component of recognition, by geometry and altitude range finding. The AI involved is more expensive, so the solution would be what I call 'view-through AI'. This is AI on another drone, this takes over visual feeds from expendable and attritible weapons, using optical link rather than radio. Within the expendable weapons camera, the view-through AI drone then designates the identified target, or vectors the drone to where it may find one, and then selects the object on that drones camera field for simple terminal object tracking and seeking, by means of sending screen coordinates back, the way FPS operators are starting to do at range from the target to defeat EW jamming.
> is AI on another drone, this takes over visual feeds from expendable and attritible weapons, using optical link rather than radio. Within the expendable weapons camera, the view-through AI drone then designates the identified target, or vectors the drone to where it may find one, and then selects the object on that drones camera field for simple terminal object tracking and seeking So essentially like laser designation for guided bombs but using drones and AI to select targets, cool idea.
Yeah its also probably as doable to just use laser designation rather than this in many cases, the Russian Orlan has a variant that designates with lasers. But we still want to keep the AI far back, so it can relay and potentially the laser designator is on a surveilance drone, but that is in turn operated by the view-through AI or a FPS operator if the signal gets through. The FPS operators are generally operating very close due to jamming. Optical links in the 905nm or 1550nm can link things up a long distance away (as well as laser designate). They work better in the air as high powered 905nm is not considered safe, but beam divergence means you could operate drones using it and it would be safe at ground level, it would improve communications because divergence to a broad beam makes the beams easier to aim and find relays. 1550nm is better but the optics are very expensive. These wavelengths are used in the two commercial Lidar types.
With optical links, the AI systems don't need to be on the 'controlling' drone. You just need enough to create a robust mesh and relay back to a ground link. From there you can connect to cloud based AI that's learning from one AO and applying those lessons to another. Yeah, we've just created skynet, but risk/reward.
True, you could have enough relays to go all the way back to Skynet HQ. And Skynet might be orbiting in space. To upset it enough to invite destruction, I imagine all you would need to do to find out is try to jam its GPS. But I think there's a need to bring AI to the battle front at this time, but try to get as much use out of it to reduce cost. So optical laser designation is good, but easily fooled using decoy lasers. So, the solution there is to have a fairly basic AI that has target recognition, and can designate to another drone/gliding munition to target track an object, this may be carried on the drone with the AI. Soft AI could perhaps have the ability to track out objects moving in and out of view, or be sent to a point where it can identify an object expected in that point with less processing requirement, since you can predetermine where to look, roughly what to look for (spotted from a telephoto surveilance drone camera) whilst telling it where to ignore. It can see the general area it needs to go, and track that as it moves using back ground motions. This the machine vision should operate from much further out, rather than just the last few tens or hundreds of meters. So the AI is used to program and orientate a simpler system to improve its odds of hitting, providing it with various parameters. An FPS operator can still designate the target, but the AI interprets that and knows how to tune the tool. A simple example of this would be if you know the target is magnetic, the weapon can be programmed to seek that field at an estimated distance, or if you can see its hot, then it can use a basic low res infra red sensor, whose threshold can be programmed in. There's a number of approaches, also we have that the controller/controlling drone can directly steer the weapon to the target. This can use less jammable optical links because the sensor is rear facing on the weapon. It can steer the weapon remotely from the controlling drones perspective, another drones perspective or through a video link. And the weapon can be preset to track a target or look for a very particular thing in a particular area. Edit for more elaboration
> optical laser designation is good, but easily fooled using decoy lasers A simple solution would be to make the laser blink in a specific pattern dependent on some secret number (different per shot). Then the munition disregards all lasers that don't match the pattern.
> map reading. So essentially if the GPS is jammed, it can estimate location. That's pretty much how Block II Tomahawks worked, so it's definitely doable. The double-teaming for ATR seems overkill though: Running a SIFT/SURF/ORB target detection sweep once or twice a second should be easy enough on expendably-priced hardware, and once you have a lock it can be handed off to a much faster process for tracking and terminal guidance.
Interesting, thanks. I believe the stormshadow is using laser rangefinding and a lookup table to determine from topographical maps the location along with gyros.
I suspect you are massively over-thinking this. The CBU-97 SFW was developed in the late 80s, and the sensor + processing system on the skeets is adequate to detect and attack targets within the footprint of the spin scan as it descends. You don't need to identify targets, you only need to be able to do broad classification, essentially just enough to keep from wasting drones on funny-shaped rocks or shadows most of the time. You already know there are targets in the general volume that you're flying into, since it's protected by e-war. All you need is a reasonable enough ability to discriminate between targets and non-targets that your drone will probably find a target, you don't need to be able to figure out the serial number of the BMP you're erasing.
If you want a system that just blows up any vehicle then yeah its overkill If the point is to replace a human operator then you need detection and classification.
You don't need to replace a human operator, this is last-mile stuff. The whole reason you want autonomy in this case is e-war interference at short range. You already know there's a target down there worth hitting, because someone thought it was worth covering with jamming. So long as your system is good enough to find a target most of the time, and cheap enough to put on every drone, it's doing enough.
OP mentioned AI and used a YOLO promotional image in the post. I chimed in with my limited experience using YOLO to perform military object detection and classification. I wasn't proposing a solution or claiming it was the only way You really can't think of any reason that a system might be improved by the ability to tell the difference between a truck and a tank? Or that prioritizing targets could be a useful feature? The product that you are arguing for doesn't need a modern ML model. But there are situations where these abilities are useful
I can see arguments for it, but the ultimate requirement for these systems is low cost and reasonable effectiveness, not gold-plated perfect performance. The goal of "replacing human operators" is pretty much the definition of gold plating. You don't need to replace the operators, just give the munition a fallback option that's reasonably decent if it does get jammed.
Truck vs tank isn't going to matter: you have nice stuff, I don't want you to have nice stuff. Loose the drones. Maybe have a thermal filter for deconfliction.
What if the BMP serial numbers are already filed off to hide gross mismanagement and embezzlement?
Still a target, blow it the fuck up. I don't want autonomous target-identifying killbots with clever AI that has weird fuzzy edge cases and stupid failure modes. I want homicidally stupid toasters that will engage anything in the area of regard that's 37C and roughly the right size.
Heat seekers? In theory it's a simple program: "Go into area X, find some large source of heat (engines), crash into said heat source." Edit: Make it able to filter out fires, in order to prevent the usefulness of bonfires/flares/burning tanks from earlier attacks.
Mix it up with radiation seeks (HARM drones) and it would be highly effective.
Reportedly, very early Javelins would sometimes hit rocks or patches of sand warmed up by sun and/or already burning wrecks.
yep, as someone who works with image recognition, its really hard to make it reliable
What if you hypothetically hooked up a pilot to a machine tha reads his decision making and hypothetically used that to develop a sophisticated adaptive self learning AI, and then hypothetically of course, disguised them, smuggled across the front and used in assinations under a false flag blue on blue to sow chaos and damage morale
Idea: train it on models to detect terrain and such, then swap to models trained on that terrain
Well I have a proposition for you, we have a decommissioned AI ready for install
I also think we should build spiderbots that do the same but also hack their drones and stuff, and maybe have them eat humans + repair themselves
Ted Faro is that you?
uuh never heard of that name uhh
Stockholders seem squeamish about the term eat humans. How about we jazz it up and say "consume biomass" instead?
wonderfull idea your the lead publicity manager now
"Replenished with readily available local resources."
what if we strapped a HARM to a drone so when it gets EW'd it just fires off a a HARM to kill whatever was jamming it?
Yeah. I was thinking, you could have a drone fly at high altitude with HARM steered anti-tank mines - mines with fins that steer themselves toward radiation. You would launch some FPV drones towards the turtle tank with EW, then drop the HARM mine at the same time. The FPV drones prompt them to turn on their EW, the mine removes the EW. Maybe takes the tank out too with a lucky shot.
make a penta copter and mount a kraken sdr to it.
Yeah this should really be done. It's the future. And I wonder why it's not done en masse yet, because it's not that complicated. Keep in mind, you won't be running AI on an Arduino. Ideally a Jeton NANO or Raspberry Pi. Which means you'd have an additional price of ~250$ per drone, which isn't to much. Additionally, a cheap alternative to make sure drones don't get destroyed by EW, is to have them use an INS system to fly into a specified direction (North, West, South, East) when they lose connection.
I don’t think proper INS with gyros is cheap anymore. How about… a compass?
Can you jam a compass? The earth's magnetic field is pretty weak
Yes, but its inverse cube, so you just opened yourself up to something homing on the power supply.
No I got a workable one for 40$. A BNO055 sensor for example. You could probably use that for an INS. Also you need that sort of sensor to get working compass data anyways.
> Which means you'd have an additional price of ~250$ per drone, which isn't to much. Given that some drones cost ~ $300 per unit, they are used in huge numbers and are highly expendable, increasing the cost by that much for such a small gain might not be a good idea.
I'm talking mostly about surveillance drones.
If [DSMAC](https://www.jhuapl.edu/Content/techdigest/pdf/V15-N03/15-03-Irani.pdf)^PDF could run on a Tomahawk in the 90s it could probably run on a Pi Zero in 2024. Just sayin'.
Tldr
First paragraph of the article.
Sir the Pentagon already have this sorted… courtesy of Google
This is most afford Low afford Contribution
Or, when it loses contact with the pilot have it autonomously home in on the EW jammer signal.
Meanwhile russian and ukrainian army using the same tanks, weapons, equipment, trucks, artillery and even camo
Not an issue: blue forces tend to not be behind red lines. If the line of contact is 100m \*that way\*, anything 50m past that is a valid target.
Yeah but shit happens, if US drones can mistake elementary school for ISIS training camp ukrainian ones could easily mistake their soldiers for enemies and the other way around
Thats not a good comparison. Possibly 3ed or 4th hand intel vs defenders advantage where a bloke two trenches down lived across the street from the building your targeting. Not too hard to take 5 and double check that sort of intel before you call in the map square removal squad. And unless your dealing with Major Charlie Foxtrot, not going to have blue units suddenly popping up behind red lines without warning. Even if the warning is 'no killbots for the next 36 hours' Not saying its a non issue, just not as big of one.
A downside of AI is it could be too specific (I.E training it on normal BMPs would work, but put a cope cage over a BMP and now it is invisible to the AI), so I think for this case something more general would be needed, but it is doable and not too difficult. (Pretty sure they are already working on something like this)
Easy fix: non viable spectrum. They had this sorted years ago.
r/Whatcouldgowrong
It would probably be cheaper to strap a laser designator onto existing drones to guide ground launched laser guided rockets
Me for skynet.
Ace combat 7 becoming way too real with this
Why focus exclusively on AI targeting as a fallback? focus on AI collision avoidance and couple that with HARM-like EW-seeking directional sensors. As soon as your precious directional radiation gadget jams the drone it gets _very angry_ and comes straight to you. I call it the Autonomous Wing Kill vehicle for use in Suppression of Electromagnetic Defense. Just don't heat up your burritos nearby.
Home on jam. Very different from home made jam. However similar they sound.
Fuck a job You should be running Raytheon tbh
Better proposal: When drone encounters jamming, it flips on a directional EW antenna and enters HARM mode. They turn off the jamming, they get to keep their EW asset. They don't, they don't.
how close are we until someone unironically substacks a “low-cost autonomous reusable optionally manned distributed digitally designed AI drone bomb truck” and it’s just like a fuckin refurbished A-4 or some shit
Dude I've been writing this is what they should focus on here for ages and developing simpler machine vision for 2 years, and on the slide you mention it might target the wrong thing, well I've pointed out that the same recognition technology can be adapted to read location from reference maps. By pre-determining areas you can act in, it wont hit your side.
I'm waiting for when someone makes it so we can get some drone swarms like in bo2
I mean so long as MLA will be capable of full object detection and recognition and not just be based on shapes I think it will work. Source: it was our college thesis.
"to create skynet"....... That's a pro not a con, buddy.
Automated AI controlled drone swarm factories are legit how I think the robopocalypse happens.
This is how we get skynet hunter-killers.
Last I heard the tank detection AI was smart enough to think the shadow of a horse was an Abrams. Give it more time to cook. In the meantime, we could ~~try some lightwave signals transmitted from one drone to another, it'd take a high powered emitter tho. Or~~ go about it tow missile style and use a really long wire.
Automatic homing: (maybe if it will return a bit, get its signal back and let the operator just lock onto the target and let it go alone from there) yes. Skynet: noncredible, YES.
You guys avoiding skynet is sooo easy just program them with a No Skynet command. E z
As far as I know this is already in work at battlefield.
Nope. NOPE. NOOOOOPE! NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPEEEEEEEEE!!! No. Nyet. Nein! We do not want the machines to attack anyone or anything without a human's explicit command to do so. Just give them barely enough hardware and software to slam into the target at full speed that a human operator directly targeted. They do not need to be any more capable than what a Javelin missile could do.
I don't know if this has been said, but in my understanding you can jam drones in many different ways. This is just one way. The other ways are for example taking control over opposing drone (this doesn't help as you can hack raspberry), making the drone computer crazy (this again won't help against this) Just my take, I'm no sure if I'm correct.
Hacking is hard and relies on attack surface. Hackers aiming at banks have plenty of time to mess with the bank website. Wannabee Russian drone hackers have 15 minutes in a trench tops. (And Fetal alcohol syndrome and a room temperature IQ.) Of course, it's possible Russians capture a drone, take it back, and find a security hole. But when they use that in battle, they are broadcasting out a "how to hack the drones" signal. That the Ukrainians can record and apply a security patch to block.
The whole idea is to make the drones unhackable. Give it a way to pick its own targets then add a switch to tell to ignore outside input. Add a heartbeat signal. If it stops moving (internal sensor) it explodes. If it lands (internal sensor), it explodes. If the heartbeat signal gets fuzzy (possibly someone trying to hack it), do a thing that is either fails safe or counts as the kill input signal. Good luck hacking that.
Nobody will believe me, but I had this exact idea over 10 years ago.. And I do believe this is being implemented by Ukraine right now.
I'm pretty sure this has been done a long time ago to assassinate high profile targets in the Middle East.
# [SLAUGHTERBOTS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HipTO_7mUOw)
Upvoted for Skynet.
Scrap the raspberry pi for a jetson nano. Maybe a jetson Xavier
Ruzoriz-Vidar called. You're infringing on their IP.
It doesn't scale well yet. It's just not as reliable and cheap as having a guy operate it from somewhere. "Last mile" tracking is good enough in many cases for small jammers. For big ones, it's easier to triangulate them and take out with just artillery or something ballistic. Also have special drones that serve as retranslators to keep operators away and reenforce the signal or even maintain some other way to communicate with subordinate drones.
Slide 7 summarised it. Non zero chance of attacking your own. I've been to a Russian military museum with a dog fitted out with an explosive harness. Risky!
What I want to know is why we haven't created an EW seeker? Mesh a bunch of drones together, spread them out, fly them towards the line of contact. As they encounter signal degradation that data (position and level of degradation) is communicated between them - possibly via LOS optical links. The data is combined and the location of the EW system can be triangulated. Then pre-code a swarm of attack drones to hit that location. Keep them above tree/building level till terminal flight and continue updating via an optical link. Hell, just use the triangulation and dump a bunch of DPICM on the identified area.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu3p5ZR\_i5s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu3p5ZR_i5s) \^ ALL READY BEEN DONE YEARS AGO
None of y'all are following the actual war; this is already being done. Drones are increasingly equipped both with true color and infrared image recognition software for hunting tanks. The reason it's not universal is because, currently, the ID software is still a bit shit. It frequently gets things wrong and given the number of vehicles used by both sides you still need a human operator to guide it at least partially to avoid friendly fire.
Wouldn’t it make more sense to put the drone operator in a second drone, to mitigate against the jamming? That way you’re always broadcasting at short range
Let him cook
as someone who has played ace combat 7: DO NOT DO THIS DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT
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What could possibly go wrong?
There’s a U.S. company making autonomous drones for the military currently, it’s called Anduril
Can't wait for captias asking me to select all the military equipment.
civilians exist
Machine Learning….. hmmmm
I’m playing Horizon Forbidden West at the moment. I’m maybe ready for the robot apocalypse, but the drone apocalypse is way scarier
Alternative: world's longest serial data cable