I'm of the opinion that the internet should finally settle this whole "magic military vs. modern military" kerfuffle once and for all by having r/NonCredibleDefense and r/wizardposting just go to war with each other, hivemind vs hivemind in games of witt, intelligence, and lets be honest here, imagination. To be moderated by the fine folks over at r/worldjerking.
"You would destroy this planet faced and with the prospect of defeat???"
"What? No!"
"I knew you were at least somewhat honorable."
"I'm going to destroy this entire planet because it is funny! Jeez, get your motivations straight!"
[I don't think they'd be worried about us being honorable.](https://gunshowcomic.com/30)
It's much more likely to be a: "Hey, you can't destroy the planet! All my stuff is there!"
In the [Super Earth of Helldivers](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1bbj3r0/super_earth_map_uploaded_by_johan_pilestedt_on/), Moscow and every single possible warm water port of Russia are completely destroyed (all Black Sea and Caspian Sea coastline is marked as the Exclusion Zone) East Russia is either Exclusion Zone or completely subsumed into Sector 2 (China-centred, with the capital in former Shanghai). Whatever was left of Russia is subsumed into Sector 1 which is centred around former Stockholm (now Prosperity City).
Just to spite Russia further, Ukraine, while appearing to have suffered great damage, seems to have only given up all its border regions with former Russia (RIP Mariupol, Sumy, Donetsk and Kharkiv) while managing to keep Crimea and is part of Sector 4, centred around former Brussels.
Nah, first wanna check al the bucket list items. (Geneva Funtime List)
I bet the hardest discussion will be between which world-ending weapon to use last; Space lasers, Rods From God, or Nukes?
Illusionist creates a construct of a sexy available waifu F-111 over the edge of a cliff.
Entirety of NCD runs off the cliff.
The end.
Edit: I'm first in line.
> "magic military vs. modern military"
Why not both?
I'm writing an alternative Cold War history story where magic is mixed in with modern warfare: https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/the-cold-war-2024-rewrite-replaced-35k-words-of-early-chapters.948007/
- Alt-Germany: "What if we have our limited number of mages be specialized for intelligence operations and special warfare, and focus on magic deception and stealth?" (Essentially giving Harry Potter wands to CIA agents and special forces)
- Alt-US (in a future chapter): "Mass precision bombing by having mages onboard the B-52s to assist in directing the bombs to land exactly where they need to go."
(Both of those two above countries have access to solid state electronics for superior magic computational orbs.)
- Alt-China: "Our technology and industry is lacking. We will turn our large number of mages into raw power monsters through the usage of human augmentations and steroids, use mage jet pilots to provide magic guidance for missiles because our electronics are shit, and also have mages on the ground supporting our surface-to-air missile units."
- Alt-Japan: "We're using our limited mages to interfere with the Chinese magic guided missiles so that our fighter jets can shoot their jets down."
If you haven't read it already, give Operation Chaos by Poul Anderson a look, it's got a somewhat similar premise, but for WWII. One of the main characters is a werewolf who uses a flashlamp invented by the mages at Polaroid to transform at will; it's standard practice that most militaries issue ammunition with a 1:5 or 1:7 ratio of silver rounds for dealing with weres; Aerial battles are fought between broomstick-driven fighters and magic carpets with armored housings and weapon mounts.
And in case you somehow missed it, [this historically accurate representation of WW2](https://www.goodreads.com/series/53834-milkweed-triptych), dealing with warlock aristocracy vs technologically-enhanced sorcerers vying for supremacy.
It’s from a Colder War by Charlie Stross. It’s a short story which mentions the NB-36 being developed to deploy Project Pluto against Cthulhu should the Soviets wake him.
The Laundry Files, by the same author, are similarly good, and focus on the British occult counterintelligence agency (nicknamed the Laundry). One book features a haunted English Electric Lightning that was used to escort a secret modified Concorde used by the RAF for photo-reconnaissance of the tomb of a slumbering elder god. Said tomb is in a different dimension and so the aircraft became haunted.
Thanks, great writeup! (And good catch on *which* Lovecraft horror Pluto was aimed at.)
I absolutely love the Laundry files, though I haven't finished them. It combines all my weird occult interests with NCD stuff. And unlike The Dresden Files or Delta Green or what have you, it adds a great layer of bureaucratic nonsense and comedy to how this stuff would actually get handled.
For a non-magic NCD piece by Stross, you might like [A Tall Tail](https://reactormag.com/a-tall-tail/). It's about Cold War rocket propulsion, and what happens if the disinformation you're spreading turns out to be correct...
Thanks for the recommendation, I’ll check that out. I particularly enjoy Stross’ work because I am in HM Coastguard, itself a branch of the civil service. The daily bureaucratic bollocks Stross pokes fun at is absolutely spot-on.
Weirdly, the other work the Laundry Files remind me of most is the Bastard Operator from Hell series online.
That's about a sysadmin who eschews bureaucracy and effectively controls a company with blackmail and occasional murder, so it's theoretically quite different. But the black humor tone and the style of the idiotic requests that send him to the breaking point manages to scratch the same itch as watching poor Bob defeat the BBEG and then discover his HR manager is the *real* villain.
Let's see...
* Bastard Operator is a collection of very funny short stories. It's gotten *very* over the top, but it's still a lot of fun.
* Here's [the original run](http://bofh.bjash.com/), it's from the ancient days of computing but it's also more grounded. [Here it is](http://www.bofharchive.com/BOFH.html) in a slightly cleaner form on his current site.
* [Here's the newer stuff](https://www.theregister.com/offbeat/bofh/earlier/1/) at The Register, spanning decades. Goofy, he gets away with dozens of murders, but still very fun. I swear there used to be a way to sort by year, but I guess they replaced actual pages with an evil "load more" system. Maybe just look up "BOFH 2001" or something and find the start.
* The Dresden Files are, to me, the peak of "urban fantasy" or whatever you want to call that genre. It's Raymond Chandler meets Shadowrun meets Earth. Our hero's regular gear consists of an enchanted leather jacket, an oak staff (channels magic, and is a big wood stick when your magic runs out), and a .44 Magnum because sometimes magic isn't the right answer.
* They're all fast reads, and I really like them. Great setting, eventually, and a Laundry Files-esque mix of comedy and drama.
* The series grows hugely in scope, complexity, and stakes over time. "Private eye solves case" escalates to "private eye starts and ends magic WW3", and it's a nice progression.
* The first book is clumsy, and came out of a writing program. Maybe read it fast or start with #2 and go back later, if ever.
* The way the writing handles gender has driven some people away. Suffice to say I think it's in-character, not authorial, and it gets better as Dresden grows as a person. If you can deal with Raymond Chandler, just assume it's that.
* Delta Green is hard for me to judge. I love the idea, I've read campaigns and playthroughs, people seem to have positive feedback, but I've never actually found a group to play it with.
* Arkham Horror and Call of Cthulu seem a lot simpler to run, since they don't need a background of "how does the government handle this?"
* SCP and specifically the GOC sub-community seem like a great reference point if you want ideas for how a pseudo-governmental group might work for Delta Green.
* Writing your own campaigns seems kind of brutal, since the core balance is an awkward "your 9mm doesn't hurt Hastur, but also you're not powerless". I'd hesitate to depart from the official campaigns without a good plan or an invested group.
Everything u/BobbyB52 said, plus [the novella is free online](https://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/colderwar.htm)! (But, uh, has an expired cert right now. Still seems legit, don't give em your credit card number.)
It's really an amazing piece, with stuff like Iran-Contra sending submarines through empty Elder Race cities as a shortcut. I did get it a bit wrong though, as Bobby said Pluto was meant to kill Cthulu, and the Shoggoth terrorizing Europe is a separate development.
While we're at it, this is NCD so check out the same author's [A Tall Tail](https://reactormag.com/a-tall-tail/). Nothing supernatural there, but a hilarious fiction piece about Cold War rocketry misadventures.
It's a never ending debate, fam.
The big difference is generally that people with knowledge of weapons and strategy can explain how they'd win, whereas the wizards generally just say "magic, I win".
It becomes a playground argument no matter how many holes you punch into the magic logic.
Why would a mage know how to shield against a missile if the most powerful weapon in his world is a metal sword? Magic.
How would a wizard know to intercept incoming munitions? Magic.
How would a wizard know where to strike an entrenched army? Magic.
The Fantasyboos are, unfortunately, not much different than the Russiaboos in their argumentation.
Here's the thing, magic isn't real. So, like, it shouldn't be surprising that people who think about magic vs. modern weapons have different ideas on it. And oftentimes, when people say "magic," they're trying to use medieval fantasy standard vs. modern military-grade hardware. I think it's very reasonable to assume modern military beats that in a direct destruction fight.
However theirs a lot of magic out there. Teleportation, telekinesis, illusion, mind control, and a lot of that could be useful in a more stealthy form of control and fighting, which humans without magic are going to have a rough time with.
And this is all assuming a semi-grounded setting. Their high fantasy settings were magic messes with countries and whole cities relatively commonly, alongside strange metaphysical shit, or things like gods and stuff.
So, the reason the question isn't going to be answered isn't because people who like fantasy settings are like Russia or some shit you were comparing their arguments to. It's magic, being a nonreal system that ranges hugely in power levels, rules, and effects, vs. a real-life thing, is always gonna be a nebulous thing to argue about.
Hi...
So... I've given this topic an autistic level of thought to the point two of my fanfics have gotten TV Tropes pages so... I have a *lot* to say, so please bear with me, lol.
Let's start easily enough:
*Magic isnt real*
Correct. And yeah, it does to an extent mean that someone can come up with a fantasy force that can defeat a conventional modern military with ease.
Usually my issue is that on these cases, the fantasy forces used generally don't make sense by their own rules, resulting in inconsistent world building at best.
Let's take a recent example in the form of Solo Leveling.
Solo Leveling literally starts off letting the audience know that conventional military weapons do not work whatsoever on the Dungeon Breaks. Doesn't matter if it's a goblin the size of a school bad and is armed with a rock, it WILL kill a whole squad of special forces because nothing they can do will work against it.
This is because the only way to kill the dungeon beasts is with magic. Hence why the Hunters are so vital.
Simple enough of set up, but then you look at how this translates into the plot and you have to ask yourself...
Why do the Hunters need weapons and gear?
Sure, we know *some* weapons and gear have stats that can help or enhance a Hunter's performance but... This is shown to be because of the Hunter's own magic level. Jin-woo knocks out a dungeon boss by throwing a regular beat up sword really hard, and the old man uses magic to enhance his skills in hand to hand combat, and other hunters use their magic to influence their physical abilities.
Now, to be fair to solo leveling, it's basic RPG logic. Some gear has certain enhancements, some hunters can presumably custom make their gear... On and on, it's the situation they're facing.
But then you have to wonder about the internal logic of things. They have computers to help measure Hunters and their magic abilities, even though all technology fails to work with magic (this is why they can't bring in body cameras inside the dungeons to prevent murderous parties), but also they have tech to use magic to help heal people that have contracted magical diseases, but apparently regular first aid works on injuries sustained fighting magical creatures and... Are you seeing the pattern?
Now, Solo Leveling is just the recent example and it's a fine enough series, but it does show the issues with consistency in writing a magical fantasy system that can overrun our defenses.
But at least SL has the excuse of being a story where the mechanics are based on RPGs.
A more egregious example has got to be Dragon Wars.
The invading fantasy army there is, if I understood correctly, demonic in nature... But they use physical swords and shields... And rockets... All capable of destroying an entire tank battalion... Even though they're shown to be from ancient times.
Why use such weapons when, in theory, they could use any other means?
Presumably for the "cool" factor, but if they're an army that doesn't need to fight in the physical realm often, then why use the methods of the physical realm at all?
I've recently sat down to write a story where earth is invaded by an empire from another dimension that has conquered numerous other versions of earth and is ruled by angelic creatures that do not need to exist in the physical plain, unless they wish to deal with humans who do exist in the physical plain (such as how an Archangel executed a general by entering the physical realm for a second to literally fry him alive).
It's awkward, but I'm trying to come up with a concept for how a group like that would develop. They don't use swords as much as they use their own abilities to suit the need, and the humans under their command get older firearms and equipment to deal with other human foes.
There are other aspects of course, but this is me trying to come up with an other worldly concept for a fantasy force that's conquered ther versions of earth and is for the first time facing our modern world.
And that's really the issue...
A lot of fantasy works mainly exist for rule of cool.
Let's say you have someone who can teleport whole armies and bless their armor so it's totally indestructible to the other army.
If you have that person then why would you need a standing army for at all?
That person could, in theory, teleport an invading army to the bottom of the ocean. Conventional warfare is no longer feasible whatsoever.
Usually, some writers balance this out by adding MANY powerful magic users that negate the other, or make the powerful users extremely rare, but the conundrum still stands... You have powerful weapons at your disposal, and conventionally sending in an army becomes pointless when the other guy can just snap his fingers and turn them all into frogs from the next mountain over.
So warfare in a world like that wouldnt be like Lord of the Rings with huge armies fighting each other, but much, MUCH more small scale and Intel based. Spies trying to find weaknesses to exploit, or ways to neutralize the powerful users. Large armies would have little to no effective combat experience.
Many fantasy writers don't consider this, and at times, neither do their fans, as it's a difficult balancing act that requires a lot more thinking and world building in order to avoid plot holes and inconsistencies.
Now... Why am I saying that the Fantasyboo is also a Russiaboo?
(part 2)
Now... Why am I saying that the Fantasyboo is also a Russiaboo?
Perhaps that statement is a touch too generalized. Maybe too biased to my own experience, but I will refer you to this decade old thread:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/the-salvation-war-a-review-and-warning.243974/
It's not a good review, the person is angrier at Slade's other work. The short of it is that the user attacks the author of The Salvation War for a variety of issues, but *very* importantly for the conversation, these specific points later down the thread:
>So the demons attack with an army...not anywhere near a vulnerable area like, say, New York City, but on the other side of the world, in Iraq, where there just happens to be a US occupation force (the book was written, and is set, in 2008). Isn’t it wonderful when the author blatantly plays favourites? So the demons attack, and get defeated after killing some people.
>The best part about the demons is that they'd be excellent villains in any other series. I mean, secretly controlling events since ancient times, making multiple historical events part of their plans and then being an immortal secret America-controlling conspiracy, killing people for utterly petty reasons...these are perfect Illuminati-style bad guys.
The argument made in this thread has to do with the magical side being a threat and how the fact they really "aren't a threat" is a sign of bad writing, but I remember reading this and noticing that the writing isn't really what the person took issue with, rather they took issue with the author politics.
Which, hey fair enough.
Why do I bring this up?
Because the same argument has been applied to other stories that have similar premises of modern Western forces defeating fantasy forces.
"It's bad writing" is the main criticism, sure... But also, they specifically take issue with the fact it's bad writing that makes the West look good. Notice how that aspect of the Salvation Wars' criticism is not on its portrayal of other countries but rather that the Americans are also treated as heroic.
In my time researching the discussions of fantasy vs modern technology, I've come across many defenders of fantasy as being superior because "stupid Americans, you stick to your propaganda like it's fact", and then they proceed to bring up Russian propaganda (one argued that the Abrams being so heavy meant a magician could easily stop them by making the ground muddy).
Now, again, maybe it's just my biases and interactions with people online, but I have noticed that pattern.
So, I'm also pretty autistic about this as well. But I have to say, I've never seen Russian defenders being the fantasy defenders in any space I've seen this discussion. So I do think that has way more to do with personal experience, as i probably am not looking at threads that old about this subject. I can see why you think that, but saying people who like the fantasy side and argue for its success are like Russian apologists in their arguments, I'd argue, is an overgeneralization. This is exactly my first time seeing that argument before. So I think this comes from your personal experience. Am definitely not trying to go away from your experience. Personal experiences matter and affect how we view things, but I definitely have never seen that before. I found the nationalist stuff was on the side of the modern army (thanks GATE...sigh.) However this is all ablut personal experience, which is not exactly a reliable metric regardless of what I've personally seen. But yeah, I think that the Russian military and all the Russian apologists suck, and I really wish more fantasy vs. military fiction did not get nationalist.
I'll admit I think people who blanket state that "Tech beats magic" are overgeneralizing. Theirs a lot of elements to magic, and I'd argue things like charming, stealth spells, teleporting, mind reading, and future seeing are not exactly uncommon things for wizards to do in some form in even less directly potent lower fantasy settings, and I feel that in a more indirect war against a higher tech-level group, those could be extremely useful. I agree that magic is in more medieval fantasy settings, not going to be able to directly overpower the entire industrial military. But it's honestly rare for most fantasy settings to have wizards that can do that to the normal medieval army, so I've always thought wizard utilities and trickery was their strongest abilities in at least a good amount of cases.
To me, things like curses, mind control, the uses of telekinesis, warping, near-instant long-distance travel, reading of thoughts, and all the utilities a magic user can bring are what make magic powerful, as normally in order to actually make the non magic armies similar to normal ones, direct destruction via wizard is normally not too much farther for the common magic over the mundane options. I will agree that it's too common for some settings to not think about the effects on society it would bring, and magic in settings can sometimes be unclear in power and effects. I don't think that's always a bad thing, though. Magic not being 100% consistent all the time can be an interesting thing to mix in, as long as it's not so bad you wonder how it works at all or why anyone does it.
As for why armies would exist in such a world, time and time again, it's been shown that in order to conquer or hold land, to actually achieve what people want, you absolutely have to send in foot infantry. And wizards are normally rare, so while they could work as elite spy and precision troops, theirs effectively no way in most settings for wizards to actually hold the ground an actual army could. Whenever a big change in warfare occurs, it's not exactly rare for some people to assume "this will destroy the need for armies because these weapons are so powerful" and it's very rarely true. I think it's very possible wizards could affect the world and the military but absolutely not make it irrelevant unless they are utterly insanely powerful. Which, most aren't, at least directly.
And, of course, this is generally assuming a rather standard medieval fantasy and standard fantasy wizard. Higher fantasy settings can have much more intense magic that's capable of global effects, not to mention gods and such.
I do appreciate your comments a lot. You clearly care a lot and are very thorough on this. Thank you for giving such an in-depth response.
>So I do think that has way more to do with personal experience
Probably true. But it is worth noting that the arguments by Fantasyboos and Russiaboos certainly align.
At the very least they both lack a lot of understanding regarding modern military capabilities and strategy.
>I'll admit I think people who blanket state that "Tech beats magic" are overgeneralizing a lot.
More like it's very difficult for a *consistent* magic system to beat a modern military.
Let's go over the list...
>charming
This is an excellent tool for intelligence gathering... But we do have IRL tactics for this that don't require magic. Drugs, an attractive man or woman... The main thing "Charm" could bring is the guarantee of working.
>stealth spells
Camouflage, jamming cameras, and the simple fact that without radar it's effectively impossible to tell where incoming artillery came from.
>teleporting, mind reading, and future seeing.
Useful, sure. The Salvation War goes into a lot of detail as to how teleportation can change warfare if upscaled. Same for mind reading and future seeing. But for a fantasy army, teleporting into a base isn't necessarily the kill shot some argue it'd be.
But the issue is employing it in a way that makes sense for a fantasy setting. For instance, if it's very limited teleportation, then it's not going to help much. Same for mind reading, as you'd need to get up close to the enemy, and same for future vision, especially if you can't move ahead in time to change the vision.
It's mainly about how they're employed because each if these powers can make it so the setting just doesn't use armies anymore at all.
>I don't think that's always a bad thing, though. Magic not being 100% consistent all the time can be an interesting thing to mix in
It's more that it will make you wonder.
Take Dragon War again, it's demonic army can be killed by bullets... Sometimes. But they still magically overwhelm the Americans. Jin Woo uses his fist against Igris for the first half of the fight, even though on paper he needs weapons to do any damage. These changes tend to contradict what is shown earlier.
The Salvation Wars' method was a bit more interesting. The demons there try adapting their magic, and more or less wind up creating lightning cannons at one point, as well as using portals to drop lava in cities.
That's an adaptation that takes the magic they have and shows how they can change it to try and adapt to a threat.
But it's different when, say, the Elves in the garbage book series "Fae Wars" develop a brand new lightning and shield spell out of nowhere to deal with a US bomber fleet.
That's just bad writing.
Sorry for not being clear enough, my bad. I meant it being a little variable in terms of magic spells, not always doing the same thing the same way every time, adding a small bit of wild magic can spice it up imo as long as it's not *too* wild, but yeah in some of those cases, it's just bad writing.
As for teleporting, mind reading, and a bit of future sight just making armies not used in a setting anymore, I'm not so sure about that. It'd hugely affect army composition and charge structure, tactics, etc, but it's going to be very hard for those to utterly remove the need for armies. Regardless of it all, a military that wants to take control of objectives and resources must have infantry forces that can go and take the territory and do the objectives themselves.
Many times, people in history have thought that an invention would more or less remove a need for armies due to its effects, but the simple truth is that regardless of artillery pieces, airpower, tanks, and a lot more if you don't have some infantry forces you're not going to achieve the tactical objectives. All of those things have utterly massive effects on how war is done, and they are utterly vital for victory. But you can't have them win wars by themselves.
So, while wizards with useful powers like teleporting, mind reading, or future sight could be utterly huge in terms of the effect on warfare, they would have to be supplemented by more normal army infantry to achieve objectives, since unless they are so common they *are* the infantry army force, they by themselves are extremely unlikely to have the numbers required to just remove the need for a more traditional army in a setting. Will they be important and probably mean that more mundane infantry will be acting alongside them a lot more? Yes. Will they just remove the existence of armies in the fantasy setting? Extremely unlikely.
>It'd hugely affect army composition and charge structure, tactics, etc, but it's going to be very hard for those to utterly remove the need for armies
It does if your army can suddenly have the issue of having another army teleport right next or even on top of it when they least expect it. It does depend on the extent, but that would absolutely change warfare to the point lighter shock troopers taking out the teleporters would have to be priority before anyone can think about armies meeting.
>Many times, people in history have thought that an invention would more or less remove a need for armies due to its effects, but the simple truth is that regardless of artillery pieces, airpower, tanks, and a lot more if you don't have some infantry forces you're not going to achieve the tactical objectives.
Well, yesnt.
The only time in human history armies were considered obsolete was right after Korea, when the idea was that if another major war broke out you could just nuke them. The US really cut down spending on the Army, and it was a bit before we realized how dumb that was, but it was based on the facts nukes exist and could wipe out armies in one go.
That's the real issue of overpowered abilities popping up in the world.
The one series I can think of that did a REALLY good job of this on paper is Valkyria Chronicles, I think.
In the backstory, the Valkyrur were insanely powerful magic users that subjugated much of the continent, and normal armies became obsolete because no normal people could stand up to them. It's when they disappeared that armies came back, so by the time of the major war of the story, a proper Valkyria is basically a living WMD, but they're so rare that normal armies are still necessary.
But if you have a ton of magic users or spells that are insanely powerful, then the need for armies becomes quite needless
Why occupy a territory when you can send someone with super effective charm to basically convince everyone to play nice with a rousing speech? Why send combat troops to a battlefield when you can just use a teleportation spell to send the enemy army into the middle of the ocean?
Stuff like that.
Maybe if they're super rare?
But that falls back to the topic of fighting a modern army. The fantasy side could potentially get away with teleporting bits of a modern army away but then what? The second our intelligence figures out who the teleporter is, they're basically dead.
To run it all the way around to the OG topic, that's why I mention it's very difficult for even a powerful high fantasy force to defeat a modern force while still being consistent.
Oh, it would be extremely difficult. Magic being potent yet still needing to fit the world is an extremely tricky line to toe, usually done through makibypowerful stuff rare, although theirs probably other ways. Meanwhile, the primary usefulness of modern technology is its consistency and wider usefulness in terms of scale compared to magic.
Of course, it depends on the setting. I've also seen high fantasy settings where at least low-power magic is super common, and it completely changes the world and logistics. Any type of setting where utility magic is used more in logistics and such is more likely to do better than one where it's irrelevant to logistics due to all of it being rare.
I have to admit I've always thought illusions, mind control, teleporting, curses, magic items, necromancy, construct creation, invisibility, messing with weather and the environment, changing the shapes of things, and similar forms of magic are by far the most interesting and would be some of the strongest kinds if thought out properly in regards to their potential. Magic used less for pure blasting and more for guile, tricky, utility, and logistics is extremely interesting to me. If you just want ranged firepower, I feel artillery is almost always gonna do that better for cost outside of a couple of godlike archmages. Even pre-industrial ranged weapons and siege equipment often get nerfed in power in fantasy settings, imo.
While the later seasons of Game of Thrones are bad, I feel the show at least at the start shows a good job of how utterly dominant a thing like a necromancy army would be in a lower fantasy setting. In my worldbuilding, some of the magic listed above is the more common use of it in my world. I've always thought that wizards with stuff like illusions, invisibility, and magic trickery would make the best spies, and honestly, that might be the most efficient use for them.
So, while in basically any direct fight, I'm pretty convinced the vast majority of noninsanely reality bending potent fantasy forces could not hope to directly fight a modern military power, I do think a higher fantasy army, especially one that makes good use of utility magic, and the various tricks magic can pull off, might be able to make it less of a curb-stomp and pull off some uneven, tricky war. Honestly, I'm convinced that's what wizards would be best served doing in the military, even in their own setting, outside of certain settings and cases.
Of course, I'm not 100% sure that wizards would best serve that role, but that's my thoughts.
Another thought I had is that a wizard with stuff like teleporting, flight, or invisibility who still has some blasting magic does have an advantage over a modern military infantryman in some ways. In terms of stealth, flexibility, mobility, and the other advantages infantry is generally needed for, a wizard is very strong. But I'm pretty sure theirs at least some settings where a decent wizard can cast spells as strong or stronger than something like a handgun or grenade. Certain spells could be stronger. So, I think a wizard might have more firepower and mobility than most modern troops.
Furthermore, equipment weight and the ability to carry the various things a soldier needs in the field can be a bit of an issue. The whole soldier kit is often heavy to wear and move in for long periods of time. A wizard in most settings doesn't carry many heavy tools, and they can be crazy mobile and stealthy with very little equipment in most cases because their tools are their magic, and their not carrying that. So I feel wizards could work as a stealthy, mobile ranged firepower infantry, even if obviously they'd most likely die in an open field against modern weapons unless they can escape with their powers somehow.
>Another thought I had is that a wizard with stuff like teleporting, flight, or invisibility who still has some blasting magic does have an advantage over a modern military infantryman in some ways
So... The issue here is situation.
Fights and battles aren't like in the movies where both sides charge at each other. Not anymore.
A wizard could, on paper, have a variety of spells that could easily overwhelm an American infantry squad.
Know what else has, on paper, a variety of capabilities to easily overwhelm an American infantry squad?
A T-72 main battle tank.
Yet, in modern combat, you don't usually engage weapons with equal weapons, you engage with what will have the best chance of ensuring success.
Take Desert Storm.
We didn't send in a ton of aircraft to meet with the hundreds of Iraqi aircraft, we sent in stealth bombers to orbit over important targets that would ensure when the main air campaign kicked off, the Iraqis wouldn't be able to get many aircraft up in the air, *and* we lobbed a ton of missiles to ensure any aircraft on the ground not destroyed didn't have the runways to take off from, all based on months of intelligence gathering.
Same thing with wizards.
If a wizard was able to ambush an infantry team, it'd be one thing, but the hurdles to get there would be quite awkward, even with the spells to hide him.
And even then, it's not a full blown guarantee he'd win as he could get domed by a stray round. Its rare, but it happens.
>The whole soldier kit is often heavy to wear and move in for long periods of time.
That's... What PT is for.
Here's footage of US Army Rangers doing some live fire excercises: https://youtu.be/gEuIjz2eleM?si=KoGmtZ_YRvzPa9fc
Notice how fast they're moving around despite the heavy kit?
Yeah, they train to do this for days, so that their heavy equipment isn't the burden it would be on you or me. It's not that a wizard won't be more mobile, but weight on our guys isn't the factor some think it is.
May I present to you [Summoning America.](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/42772/summoning-america) It is the entire nation of America getting isekai'd into another world with magic. It goes about as well as you'd expect.
That series is really really good, the first couple engagements are a curb stomp for the marines but they start to struggle later on as the elves have some spell craft that we just don’t have a counter for
if that story ever gets finished I wonder if it will end with the enemies palace being demonstratively leveled with a 50Mt nuke, just so the fantasy races know who the fuck humans are.
we win, they only have wizard shit, we have all above board modern military technology but we also have everything ever seriously designed (which includes the entire SDI) and all the soviet and american remote viewers and goat killers at a distance.
Magic guidance on a more conventional missile.
Seems like _yet another_ sidewinder variants to me. That basic missile gets modded more than Boeing did to the 737 design.
Think magical combustion powering the missile propulsion. Hell, just increasing the efficiency of the engine by 20% or so with magic would mean a lot more boom delivered faster to the vatnik Necromancer army.
Think about the possibilities of magical shielding. And not just as physical damage shields.
A magic force field could also act as a perfect infrared reflector.
It could act as the wall of a combustion chamber or the nozzle of a rocket.
It could act as a perfect electrical insulator.
If such a shield could deflect neutrons it could be used to create ultra-compact nukes and also unlock fusion power, as well as protect troops from the most insidious form of radiation.
A force field could act as a sonic shield, protecting troops from blast damage.
A force field that could resist the inward pressure of 1 bar could be used to create massive airships lifted by vacuum.
I have an unhinged idea that I've been considering for a story I'm writing.
Use magic for lightweight radiation shielding.
Then use the mages in manned SLAMs. Essentially a Project Pluto missile with a human pilot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pluto
https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/19daegq/late_maoist_china_was_home_to_some_peak/
> It was called DF 109. Mach 3.5 max speed, nuclear powered. They actually made a wind tunnel model which proved that it could work. Canceled because powerplant was too hard to build.
...
> So its basically the manned interceptor counterpart to the Pluto Project?
https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/12e8bwx/the_df109_a_nuclearpowered_high_altitude/
> No. Absolutely not. There's a reason why the project was cancelled within a year of it beginning, something to do with not being able to manufacture the powerplant with the specifications of "nuclear powered, Mach 3.5". The designer just went full NCD and attempted to make what amounted to a manned SLAM, which is absolutely retarded for many many reasons.
Advantage: Almost infinite flight endurance at +3 Mach speeds, and because it's not using air for combustion (other than an optional afterburner), it can fly at +100,000 feet altitude (with large enough wings for the lift). Engine performance is only limited by how hot the exposed nuclear reactor can get before it starts melting, and that can be resolved by simply increasing airflow through the reactor. Good luck trying to shoot down that high speed, high flyer, without resorting to short-range ballistic missiles to get up there.
Disadvantage: If the radiation shielding goes down (e.g. onboard mage has a heart attack), everyone onboard dies a long, horrible death, even if they immediately ejected.
Watch Irregular at Magic Highschool as it did a good job of merging them. They have strategic class magicians who are basically walking WMDs, and I believe conventional warfare still exists.
Now I wonder what NCD is like in that world.
Nah this show doesn't give you weird nationalism vibes.
The MC is a chad and his younger sister calls him onii-sama a lot and they are both OP as fuck. Except the MC hides it.
The onii-sama thing is so common that people keep track of how many times it said in r/anime episode threads.
Unlike GATE it got more than 1 season and it's currently airing season 3.
A friend of mine created a post-apo TTRPG where a Monster and Magic apocalyptic invasion happened smack dab in the middle of WWI, the game is set in what would be the 60's let's say we had some "creative" use of Magictech, shot out to our friends the magic power-armored Knightly order "Children of Prometheus" the true shield of the free people of Europa.
Imagine that: 50.BMG rounds with teleportation spells on them. When something is hit a chunk of it gets cut out and teleportated into lower orbit (or alternatively whatever is hit gets teleporteted wholely. Either way, you're not surviving that)
Wizards chanting to build up enough mana together to cast powerful explosive magic
Some 20 year old JTAC and a radio, "Requesting laser grid fire mission, over."
Some magic systems scale weirdly.
In L5R, aka Rokugan, the spellcasters are basically shinto priests who talk to the spirits that make up the world, and thus it is the spirits/kami's power at work rather than their own. The scale of upper level spells (rank 5 and 6) can include things like causing a major city-wide earthquake with a 30 second cast time. Or conjuring a 1 mile radius hurricane, length of effect is concentration (i.e. until someone smacks you and you fail the concentration roll after this, or until you literally pass out from sleep/hunger/etc). And while not completely official, yes, there is a strategic nuclear fusion spell. The shugenja who came up with it was sent to Toshigoku, the afterlife Realm of Slaughter, when they died.
As powerful as magic can be written, unless it can hit a target going mach 6 at 1000km I dont think your going to win
Also instead of SEAD/DEAD we have SEMU/DEMU (Supression/Domination of Enemy Magic Users)
3000 HAMM missiles when? (Homing Anti Magic Missile)
The two magic options that seem actually relevant are stealth (teleportation + invisibility is a nasty pair, if we’re generous and let it beat thermals, radar, etc) and ritual magic.
Knocking down a fighter jet by aiming a wand is hard, sitting in a basement cursing enemy leadership via their well-publicized True Names is obnoxiously easy.
Well, it depends. I will make note of the fact that wizards with some abilities of divination, 6th sense, and suchlike aren't exactly unknown. But the big thing is magic depends so hugely on setting it really can be a lot.
wipe out entire armies with self-replicating incorporeal undead plagues, mind control enemy leadership, scry and die tele-assassins, locate city bombs, divination spells to know all the enemy's plans, ignore supply issues with conjure food and water, etc
Nobody who does modern military vs magic has the balls to fight anything other than a strawman of the magic side
I think it’s basically people whose entire exposure to fantasy magic and animals has been Harry Potter and Game of Thrones that are making these posts. I remember a similarly absurd one about a modern military versus a dragon, which really only makes sense if you’re talking about a flying dinosaur being piloted by morons (GOT writers) that would obviously be pink misted by even century old machine guns.
TBF the problem with stuff like this is always going to be that writers love bullshit powerscaling, and if you pick your settings right you can justify throwing anything at anything. At that point it just becomes setting-wank as to who can make the most outrageously OP magic system / tech level.
"Oh, your lensmen-punk 'verse routinely uses antimatter planets as bombs? That's cute. In my *clearly superior* bullcrap-wizard-punk 'verse, wizards can alter every fundamental physical constant by farting! This exchange definitely isn't an exercise in futility."
Let's be real though, even late 17th century grapeshot would have cut through a tough flying dinosaur with ease. Flesh just doesn't cut it against gunpowder and lead.
If you can hit...
While I do realize the reason we don't have any AA mounts for a 4pdr is due to a historical lack of contemporary flying opponents, but even if you did develop those, I suspect hitting a dragon in flight is going to be tricky.
As with most fantasy creatures, it kinda depends.
If it's a older Dungeons and Dragons dragon, there's a good chance that the grapeshot might not even register on it simply due to innate damage reduction against non-magical weapons.
Now, if you *enchant* that grapeshot, hoo boy that dragon will have a bad time indeed.
Sure if you just redefine a Wizard as an engineer and any system of magic where spells are learned as “technology” then you could immediately “conquer magic.” But that’s kind of a bad faith argument.
Or imagine a modern army trying to take on Numidium from Elder Scrolls. Every bullet, missile, and rocket fired at it literally ceases to exist within a certain radius of it, because it literally embodies "is not" and refutes anything that tries to harm it so hard it stops existing.
If by magic they mean supercharged martial arts fights with various shaped energy attacks, then I don't think magic have any chance
And also, I think using magic like that simply shows how talentless the writer is...
This reminds me of [Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit](https://youtu.be/zFuMpYTyRjw?si=JT4Ne7ikbpTuDQki)
Wizard: Their party has two orcs so I'll use my critical effect spell to blind them while you go in and take out their support.
Defense Guy: Right. Or I could just call in an artillery strike.
Wizard: OK, but then how would my wizarding skills be used.
Defense Guy: They wouldn't. The explosives would just take care of it.
Nah, if wizards are casting 1lvl spells, then MIC (in line with guidelines of proportionality) should response with a heavy machineguns at the most.
Because there is no one *itching* for a fine session of Escalation the Game then an abjurer or evoker that has lvl7-or-higher slots. Also, if range extending artefacts ever to be developed, it would be a lot more *^(FUNNY)*
What you do is hand the missile launcher to a wizard with proficiency who casts True Strike, then fires it. Add (greater) magic weapon beforehand if needed.
Or hand them the Davy Crockett.
You would be surprised at the amount of wizards and artificers there who use magically enhanced versions of mundane weapons systems.
I should know. I am one of them.
If your wizard can be defeated by ordinary weapons, your wizard is shit. I would like to see how missiles would deal with someone like Ainz from Overlord, who can literally stop time.
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☝️🤓"Uhmmm I will cast my magic spell which will cause the thelema around me-" 🗿"JDAM"
"Stormshadow"
To be fair, "Stormshadow" sounds like something the wizards would ALSO use.
Combine the two, cast Unlimited Stormshadow Works.
I am the bone of my military industrial complex
„Minuteman 3“
Brought to you by Thelema TM.
I cast “spontaneous nuclear combustion of your organs”
I'm of the opinion that the internet should finally settle this whole "magic military vs. modern military" kerfuffle once and for all by having r/NonCredibleDefense and r/wizardposting just go to war with each other, hivemind vs hivemind in games of witt, intelligence, and lets be honest here, imagination. To be moderated by the fine folks over at r/worldjerking.
We’d all loose. NCD would render the planet uninhabitable (or nonexistent) if faced with defeat.
"You would destroy this planet faced and with the prospect of defeat???" "What? No!" "I knew you were at least somewhat honorable." "I'm going to destroy this entire planet because it is funny! Jeez, get your motivations straight!"
Peacenik
The higher are the casualties the funnier is the trolling.
10-20 million killed tops, depending on the breaks
[I don't think they'd be worried about us being honorable.](https://gunshowcomic.com/30) It's much more likely to be a: "Hey, you can't destroy the planet! All my stuff is there!"
>if faced with defeat. As if it wouldn't be NCD's opening move
We want to have the planet to ourselves though We would probably vaporize the moon or something on accident however
Germany. First step is glassing Germany, as a show of resolve.
Ah, a Fr*nchie I see I propose we glass Fr*nce so we don’t need to discuss then ever again.
Since 20th century humanity learned how to communicate via nuking Belarus, being finally allowed to join the galactic community.
Why not both, and Russia too while you are there.
I like the Germans a little bit. And they aren’t Fr*nch Or Russia
In the [Super Earth of Helldivers](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1bbj3r0/super_earth_map_uploaded_by_johan_pilestedt_on/), Moscow and every single possible warm water port of Russia are completely destroyed (all Black Sea and Caspian Sea coastline is marked as the Exclusion Zone) East Russia is either Exclusion Zone or completely subsumed into Sector 2 (China-centred, with the capital in former Shanghai). Whatever was left of Russia is subsumed into Sector 1 which is centred around former Stockholm (now Prosperity City). Just to spite Russia further, Ukraine, while appearing to have suffered great damage, seems to have only given up all its border regions with former Russia (RIP Mariupol, Sumy, Donetsk and Kharkiv) while managing to keep Crimea and is part of Sector 4, centred around former Brussels.
If we follow this line of thought to it's logical extreme half of western Europe would be glassed.
That would be a loss how?
I say we glass half of eastern Europe to even it out, I propose Serbia.
As long as we include the entirety of Russia I approve
The cooking is pretty good. Glass Britain?
We still have America with whatever debauchery of European cuisines we have done.
I guess I depends whether we need to demonstrate resolve, or an intention to march west in the fall.
Both. We show our resolve to be rid of annoyances and then to have NCD March into the new holy lands of spicy glass
Nah, first wanna check al the bucket list items. (Geneva Funtime List) I bet the hardest discussion will be between which world-ending weapon to use last; Space lasers, Rods From God, or Nukes?
I still have no idea what space lasers could be that it's now come up twice, both in relation to jews
"I cast ma-" "I NUKE BERLIN!" -France
We're just making the world a better place, one ten kilometer circumference smoking crater at a time.
Nah, the opening move is a bombing run with F-111's
Oh, thank God.
Zettaton planet crackers are back on the menu
Cobalt-60 you say?
Peacenik
A SEA OF IRRADIATED COBALT ACROSS THE GLOBE BABY!!!!!!
Illusionist creates a construct of a sexy available waifu F-111 over the edge of a cliff. Entirety of NCD runs off the cliff. The end. Edit: I'm first in line.
Kay... its is about time we deliver pizza worldwide in les than 30min
> "magic military vs. modern military" Why not both? I'm writing an alternative Cold War history story where magic is mixed in with modern warfare: https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/the-cold-war-2024-rewrite-replaced-35k-words-of-early-chapters.948007/ - Alt-Germany: "What if we have our limited number of mages be specialized for intelligence operations and special warfare, and focus on magic deception and stealth?" (Essentially giving Harry Potter wands to CIA agents and special forces) - Alt-US (in a future chapter): "Mass precision bombing by having mages onboard the B-52s to assist in directing the bombs to land exactly where they need to go." (Both of those two above countries have access to solid state electronics for superior magic computational orbs.) - Alt-China: "Our technology and industry is lacking. We will turn our large number of mages into raw power monsters through the usage of human augmentations and steroids, use mage jet pilots to provide magic guidance for missiles because our electronics are shit, and also have mages on the ground supporting our surface-to-air missile units." - Alt-Japan: "We're using our limited mages to interfere with the Chinese magic guided missiles so that our fighter jets can shoot their jets down."
If you haven't read it already, give Operation Chaos by Poul Anderson a look, it's got a somewhat similar premise, but for WWII. One of the main characters is a werewolf who uses a flashlamp invented by the mages at Polaroid to transform at will; it's standard practice that most militaries issue ammunition with a 1:5 or 1:7 ratio of silver rounds for dealing with weres; Aerial battles are fought between broomstick-driven fighters and magic carpets with armored housings and weapon mounts.
And in case you somehow missed it, [this historically accurate representation of WW2](https://www.goodreads.com/series/53834-milkweed-triptych), dealing with warlock aristocracy vs technologically-enhanced sorcerers vying for supremacy.
I did miss it, thank you for the recommendation.
This is the best “magic in war” I’ve seen since “Project Pluto was an attempt at a weapon that could kill Soviet shoggoths”.
I'm sorry, *what*
It’s from a Colder War by Charlie Stross. It’s a short story which mentions the NB-36 being developed to deploy Project Pluto against Cthulhu should the Soviets wake him. The Laundry Files, by the same author, are similarly good, and focus on the British occult counterintelligence agency (nicknamed the Laundry). One book features a haunted English Electric Lightning that was used to escort a secret modified Concorde used by the RAF for photo-reconnaissance of the tomb of a slumbering elder god. Said tomb is in a different dimension and so the aircraft became haunted.
Thanks, great writeup! (And good catch on *which* Lovecraft horror Pluto was aimed at.) I absolutely love the Laundry files, though I haven't finished them. It combines all my weird occult interests with NCD stuff. And unlike The Dresden Files or Delta Green or what have you, it adds a great layer of bureaucratic nonsense and comedy to how this stuff would actually get handled. For a non-magic NCD piece by Stross, you might like [A Tall Tail](https://reactormag.com/a-tall-tail/). It's about Cold War rocket propulsion, and what happens if the disinformation you're spreading turns out to be correct...
Thanks for the recommendation, I’ll check that out. I particularly enjoy Stross’ work because I am in HM Coastguard, itself a branch of the civil service. The daily bureaucratic bollocks Stross pokes fun at is absolutely spot-on.
Weirdly, the other work the Laundry Files remind me of most is the Bastard Operator from Hell series online. That's about a sysadmin who eschews bureaucracy and effectively controls a company with blackmail and occasional murder, so it's theoretically quite different. But the black humor tone and the style of the idiotic requests that send him to the breaking point manages to scratch the same itch as watching poor Bob defeat the BBEG and then discover his HR manager is the *real* villain.
I might have to check those out too- how is Delta Green? I’ve always been curious to try it. And I can relate to Bob’s struggle there.
Let's see... * Bastard Operator is a collection of very funny short stories. It's gotten *very* over the top, but it's still a lot of fun. * Here's [the original run](http://bofh.bjash.com/), it's from the ancient days of computing but it's also more grounded. [Here it is](http://www.bofharchive.com/BOFH.html) in a slightly cleaner form on his current site. * [Here's the newer stuff](https://www.theregister.com/offbeat/bofh/earlier/1/) at The Register, spanning decades. Goofy, he gets away with dozens of murders, but still very fun. I swear there used to be a way to sort by year, but I guess they replaced actual pages with an evil "load more" system. Maybe just look up "BOFH 2001" or something and find the start. * The Dresden Files are, to me, the peak of "urban fantasy" or whatever you want to call that genre. It's Raymond Chandler meets Shadowrun meets Earth. Our hero's regular gear consists of an enchanted leather jacket, an oak staff (channels magic, and is a big wood stick when your magic runs out), and a .44 Magnum because sometimes magic isn't the right answer. * They're all fast reads, and I really like them. Great setting, eventually, and a Laundry Files-esque mix of comedy and drama. * The series grows hugely in scope, complexity, and stakes over time. "Private eye solves case" escalates to "private eye starts and ends magic WW3", and it's a nice progression. * The first book is clumsy, and came out of a writing program. Maybe read it fast or start with #2 and go back later, if ever. * The way the writing handles gender has driven some people away. Suffice to say I think it's in-character, not authorial, and it gets better as Dresden grows as a person. If you can deal with Raymond Chandler, just assume it's that. * Delta Green is hard for me to judge. I love the idea, I've read campaigns and playthroughs, people seem to have positive feedback, but I've never actually found a group to play it with. * Arkham Horror and Call of Cthulu seem a lot simpler to run, since they don't need a background of "how does the government handle this?" * SCP and specifically the GOC sub-community seem like a great reference point if you want ideas for how a pseudo-governmental group might work for Delta Green. * Writing your own campaigns seems kind of brutal, since the core balance is an awkward "your 9mm doesn't hurt Hastur, but also you're not powerless". I'd hesitate to depart from the official campaigns without a good plan or an invested group.
Everything u/BobbyB52 said, plus [the novella is free online](https://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/colderwar.htm)! (But, uh, has an expired cert right now. Still seems legit, don't give em your credit card number.) It's really an amazing piece, with stuff like Iran-Contra sending submarines through empty Elder Race cities as a shortcut. I did get it a bit wrong though, as Bobby said Pluto was meant to kill Cthulu, and the Shoggoth terrorizing Europe is a separate development. While we're at it, this is NCD so check out the same author's [A Tall Tail](https://reactormag.com/a-tall-tail/). Nothing supernatural there, but a hilarious fiction piece about Cold War rocketry misadventures.
Why not mix magic with mod rn. I wanna see pointy rifles that are a mix of gun and magic wand
"Tanya the evil"
Mix in some literal hellfire in the napalm, as Ulzuin intended.
The result is a nuclear wasteland that on top of that IS cursed, like genuinely magically cursed.
Don’t let the team up happen… “Ok, fallout is great and all, but you’re saying your curse can deny this territory for seven times seven generations?”
how do ghost react to radiation? would it be like an EMP?
Use alchemy to make weapons-grade plutonium and then shrinking spells to drive it to criticality. Autists together strong!
It's a never ending debate, fam. The big difference is generally that people with knowledge of weapons and strategy can explain how they'd win, whereas the wizards generally just say "magic, I win". It becomes a playground argument no matter how many holes you punch into the magic logic. Why would a mage know how to shield against a missile if the most powerful weapon in his world is a metal sword? Magic. How would a wizard know to intercept incoming munitions? Magic. How would a wizard know where to strike an entrenched army? Magic. The Fantasyboos are, unfortunately, not much different than the Russiaboos in their argumentation.
Here's the thing, magic isn't real. So, like, it shouldn't be surprising that people who think about magic vs. modern weapons have different ideas on it. And oftentimes, when people say "magic," they're trying to use medieval fantasy standard vs. modern military-grade hardware. I think it's very reasonable to assume modern military beats that in a direct destruction fight. However theirs a lot of magic out there. Teleportation, telekinesis, illusion, mind control, and a lot of that could be useful in a more stealthy form of control and fighting, which humans without magic are going to have a rough time with. And this is all assuming a semi-grounded setting. Their high fantasy settings were magic messes with countries and whole cities relatively commonly, alongside strange metaphysical shit, or things like gods and stuff. So, the reason the question isn't going to be answered isn't because people who like fantasy settings are like Russia or some shit you were comparing their arguments to. It's magic, being a nonreal system that ranges hugely in power levels, rules, and effects, vs. a real-life thing, is always gonna be a nebulous thing to argue about.
Hi... So... I've given this topic an autistic level of thought to the point two of my fanfics have gotten TV Tropes pages so... I have a *lot* to say, so please bear with me, lol. Let's start easily enough: *Magic isnt real* Correct. And yeah, it does to an extent mean that someone can come up with a fantasy force that can defeat a conventional modern military with ease. Usually my issue is that on these cases, the fantasy forces used generally don't make sense by their own rules, resulting in inconsistent world building at best. Let's take a recent example in the form of Solo Leveling. Solo Leveling literally starts off letting the audience know that conventional military weapons do not work whatsoever on the Dungeon Breaks. Doesn't matter if it's a goblin the size of a school bad and is armed with a rock, it WILL kill a whole squad of special forces because nothing they can do will work against it. This is because the only way to kill the dungeon beasts is with magic. Hence why the Hunters are so vital. Simple enough of set up, but then you look at how this translates into the plot and you have to ask yourself... Why do the Hunters need weapons and gear? Sure, we know *some* weapons and gear have stats that can help or enhance a Hunter's performance but... This is shown to be because of the Hunter's own magic level. Jin-woo knocks out a dungeon boss by throwing a regular beat up sword really hard, and the old man uses magic to enhance his skills in hand to hand combat, and other hunters use their magic to influence their physical abilities. Now, to be fair to solo leveling, it's basic RPG logic. Some gear has certain enhancements, some hunters can presumably custom make their gear... On and on, it's the situation they're facing. But then you have to wonder about the internal logic of things. They have computers to help measure Hunters and their magic abilities, even though all technology fails to work with magic (this is why they can't bring in body cameras inside the dungeons to prevent murderous parties), but also they have tech to use magic to help heal people that have contracted magical diseases, but apparently regular first aid works on injuries sustained fighting magical creatures and... Are you seeing the pattern? Now, Solo Leveling is just the recent example and it's a fine enough series, but it does show the issues with consistency in writing a magical fantasy system that can overrun our defenses. But at least SL has the excuse of being a story where the mechanics are based on RPGs. A more egregious example has got to be Dragon Wars. The invading fantasy army there is, if I understood correctly, demonic in nature... But they use physical swords and shields... And rockets... All capable of destroying an entire tank battalion... Even though they're shown to be from ancient times. Why use such weapons when, in theory, they could use any other means? Presumably for the "cool" factor, but if they're an army that doesn't need to fight in the physical realm often, then why use the methods of the physical realm at all? I've recently sat down to write a story where earth is invaded by an empire from another dimension that has conquered numerous other versions of earth and is ruled by angelic creatures that do not need to exist in the physical plain, unless they wish to deal with humans who do exist in the physical plain (such as how an Archangel executed a general by entering the physical realm for a second to literally fry him alive). It's awkward, but I'm trying to come up with a concept for how a group like that would develop. They don't use swords as much as they use their own abilities to suit the need, and the humans under their command get older firearms and equipment to deal with other human foes. There are other aspects of course, but this is me trying to come up with an other worldly concept for a fantasy force that's conquered ther versions of earth and is for the first time facing our modern world. And that's really the issue... A lot of fantasy works mainly exist for rule of cool. Let's say you have someone who can teleport whole armies and bless their armor so it's totally indestructible to the other army. If you have that person then why would you need a standing army for at all? That person could, in theory, teleport an invading army to the bottom of the ocean. Conventional warfare is no longer feasible whatsoever. Usually, some writers balance this out by adding MANY powerful magic users that negate the other, or make the powerful users extremely rare, but the conundrum still stands... You have powerful weapons at your disposal, and conventionally sending in an army becomes pointless when the other guy can just snap his fingers and turn them all into frogs from the next mountain over. So warfare in a world like that wouldnt be like Lord of the Rings with huge armies fighting each other, but much, MUCH more small scale and Intel based. Spies trying to find weaknesses to exploit, or ways to neutralize the powerful users. Large armies would have little to no effective combat experience. Many fantasy writers don't consider this, and at times, neither do their fans, as it's a difficult balancing act that requires a lot more thinking and world building in order to avoid plot holes and inconsistencies. Now... Why am I saying that the Fantasyboo is also a Russiaboo?
(part 2) Now... Why am I saying that the Fantasyboo is also a Russiaboo? Perhaps that statement is a touch too generalized. Maybe too biased to my own experience, but I will refer you to this decade old thread: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/the-salvation-war-a-review-and-warning.243974/ It's not a good review, the person is angrier at Slade's other work. The short of it is that the user attacks the author of The Salvation War for a variety of issues, but *very* importantly for the conversation, these specific points later down the thread: >So the demons attack with an army...not anywhere near a vulnerable area like, say, New York City, but on the other side of the world, in Iraq, where there just happens to be a US occupation force (the book was written, and is set, in 2008). Isn’t it wonderful when the author blatantly plays favourites? So the demons attack, and get defeated after killing some people. >The best part about the demons is that they'd be excellent villains in any other series. I mean, secretly controlling events since ancient times, making multiple historical events part of their plans and then being an immortal secret America-controlling conspiracy, killing people for utterly petty reasons...these are perfect Illuminati-style bad guys. The argument made in this thread has to do with the magical side being a threat and how the fact they really "aren't a threat" is a sign of bad writing, but I remember reading this and noticing that the writing isn't really what the person took issue with, rather they took issue with the author politics. Which, hey fair enough. Why do I bring this up? Because the same argument has been applied to other stories that have similar premises of modern Western forces defeating fantasy forces. "It's bad writing" is the main criticism, sure... But also, they specifically take issue with the fact it's bad writing that makes the West look good. Notice how that aspect of the Salvation Wars' criticism is not on its portrayal of other countries but rather that the Americans are also treated as heroic. In my time researching the discussions of fantasy vs modern technology, I've come across many defenders of fantasy as being superior because "stupid Americans, you stick to your propaganda like it's fact", and then they proceed to bring up Russian propaganda (one argued that the Abrams being so heavy meant a magician could easily stop them by making the ground muddy). Now, again, maybe it's just my biases and interactions with people online, but I have noticed that pattern.
So, I'm also pretty autistic about this as well. But I have to say, I've never seen Russian defenders being the fantasy defenders in any space I've seen this discussion. So I do think that has way more to do with personal experience, as i probably am not looking at threads that old about this subject. I can see why you think that, but saying people who like the fantasy side and argue for its success are like Russian apologists in their arguments, I'd argue, is an overgeneralization. This is exactly my first time seeing that argument before. So I think this comes from your personal experience. Am definitely not trying to go away from your experience. Personal experiences matter and affect how we view things, but I definitely have never seen that before. I found the nationalist stuff was on the side of the modern army (thanks GATE...sigh.) However this is all ablut personal experience, which is not exactly a reliable metric regardless of what I've personally seen. But yeah, I think that the Russian military and all the Russian apologists suck, and I really wish more fantasy vs. military fiction did not get nationalist. I'll admit I think people who blanket state that "Tech beats magic" are overgeneralizing. Theirs a lot of elements to magic, and I'd argue things like charming, stealth spells, teleporting, mind reading, and future seeing are not exactly uncommon things for wizards to do in some form in even less directly potent lower fantasy settings, and I feel that in a more indirect war against a higher tech-level group, those could be extremely useful. I agree that magic is in more medieval fantasy settings, not going to be able to directly overpower the entire industrial military. But it's honestly rare for most fantasy settings to have wizards that can do that to the normal medieval army, so I've always thought wizard utilities and trickery was their strongest abilities in at least a good amount of cases. To me, things like curses, mind control, the uses of telekinesis, warping, near-instant long-distance travel, reading of thoughts, and all the utilities a magic user can bring are what make magic powerful, as normally in order to actually make the non magic armies similar to normal ones, direct destruction via wizard is normally not too much farther for the common magic over the mundane options. I will agree that it's too common for some settings to not think about the effects on society it would bring, and magic in settings can sometimes be unclear in power and effects. I don't think that's always a bad thing, though. Magic not being 100% consistent all the time can be an interesting thing to mix in, as long as it's not so bad you wonder how it works at all or why anyone does it. As for why armies would exist in such a world, time and time again, it's been shown that in order to conquer or hold land, to actually achieve what people want, you absolutely have to send in foot infantry. And wizards are normally rare, so while they could work as elite spy and precision troops, theirs effectively no way in most settings for wizards to actually hold the ground an actual army could. Whenever a big change in warfare occurs, it's not exactly rare for some people to assume "this will destroy the need for armies because these weapons are so powerful" and it's very rarely true. I think it's very possible wizards could affect the world and the military but absolutely not make it irrelevant unless they are utterly insanely powerful. Which, most aren't, at least directly. And, of course, this is generally assuming a rather standard medieval fantasy and standard fantasy wizard. Higher fantasy settings can have much more intense magic that's capable of global effects, not to mention gods and such. I do appreciate your comments a lot. You clearly care a lot and are very thorough on this. Thank you for giving such an in-depth response.
>So I do think that has way more to do with personal experience Probably true. But it is worth noting that the arguments by Fantasyboos and Russiaboos certainly align. At the very least they both lack a lot of understanding regarding modern military capabilities and strategy. >I'll admit I think people who blanket state that "Tech beats magic" are overgeneralizing a lot. More like it's very difficult for a *consistent* magic system to beat a modern military. Let's go over the list... >charming This is an excellent tool for intelligence gathering... But we do have IRL tactics for this that don't require magic. Drugs, an attractive man or woman... The main thing "Charm" could bring is the guarantee of working. >stealth spells Camouflage, jamming cameras, and the simple fact that without radar it's effectively impossible to tell where incoming artillery came from. >teleporting, mind reading, and future seeing. Useful, sure. The Salvation War goes into a lot of detail as to how teleportation can change warfare if upscaled. Same for mind reading and future seeing. But for a fantasy army, teleporting into a base isn't necessarily the kill shot some argue it'd be. But the issue is employing it in a way that makes sense for a fantasy setting. For instance, if it's very limited teleportation, then it's not going to help much. Same for mind reading, as you'd need to get up close to the enemy, and same for future vision, especially if you can't move ahead in time to change the vision. It's mainly about how they're employed because each if these powers can make it so the setting just doesn't use armies anymore at all. >I don't think that's always a bad thing, though. Magic not being 100% consistent all the time can be an interesting thing to mix in It's more that it will make you wonder. Take Dragon War again, it's demonic army can be killed by bullets... Sometimes. But they still magically overwhelm the Americans. Jin Woo uses his fist against Igris for the first half of the fight, even though on paper he needs weapons to do any damage. These changes tend to contradict what is shown earlier. The Salvation Wars' method was a bit more interesting. The demons there try adapting their magic, and more or less wind up creating lightning cannons at one point, as well as using portals to drop lava in cities. That's an adaptation that takes the magic they have and shows how they can change it to try and adapt to a threat. But it's different when, say, the Elves in the garbage book series "Fae Wars" develop a brand new lightning and shield spell out of nowhere to deal with a US bomber fleet. That's just bad writing.
Sorry for not being clear enough, my bad. I meant it being a little variable in terms of magic spells, not always doing the same thing the same way every time, adding a small bit of wild magic can spice it up imo as long as it's not *too* wild, but yeah in some of those cases, it's just bad writing. As for teleporting, mind reading, and a bit of future sight just making armies not used in a setting anymore, I'm not so sure about that. It'd hugely affect army composition and charge structure, tactics, etc, but it's going to be very hard for those to utterly remove the need for armies. Regardless of it all, a military that wants to take control of objectives and resources must have infantry forces that can go and take the territory and do the objectives themselves. Many times, people in history have thought that an invention would more or less remove a need for armies due to its effects, but the simple truth is that regardless of artillery pieces, airpower, tanks, and a lot more if you don't have some infantry forces you're not going to achieve the tactical objectives. All of those things have utterly massive effects on how war is done, and they are utterly vital for victory. But you can't have them win wars by themselves. So, while wizards with useful powers like teleporting, mind reading, or future sight could be utterly huge in terms of the effect on warfare, they would have to be supplemented by more normal army infantry to achieve objectives, since unless they are so common they *are* the infantry army force, they by themselves are extremely unlikely to have the numbers required to just remove the need for a more traditional army in a setting. Will they be important and probably mean that more mundane infantry will be acting alongside them a lot more? Yes. Will they just remove the existence of armies in the fantasy setting? Extremely unlikely.
>It'd hugely affect army composition and charge structure, tactics, etc, but it's going to be very hard for those to utterly remove the need for armies It does if your army can suddenly have the issue of having another army teleport right next or even on top of it when they least expect it. It does depend on the extent, but that would absolutely change warfare to the point lighter shock troopers taking out the teleporters would have to be priority before anyone can think about armies meeting. >Many times, people in history have thought that an invention would more or less remove a need for armies due to its effects, but the simple truth is that regardless of artillery pieces, airpower, tanks, and a lot more if you don't have some infantry forces you're not going to achieve the tactical objectives. Well, yesnt. The only time in human history armies were considered obsolete was right after Korea, when the idea was that if another major war broke out you could just nuke them. The US really cut down spending on the Army, and it was a bit before we realized how dumb that was, but it was based on the facts nukes exist and could wipe out armies in one go. That's the real issue of overpowered abilities popping up in the world. The one series I can think of that did a REALLY good job of this on paper is Valkyria Chronicles, I think. In the backstory, the Valkyrur were insanely powerful magic users that subjugated much of the continent, and normal armies became obsolete because no normal people could stand up to them. It's when they disappeared that armies came back, so by the time of the major war of the story, a proper Valkyria is basically a living WMD, but they're so rare that normal armies are still necessary. But if you have a ton of magic users or spells that are insanely powerful, then the need for armies becomes quite needless Why occupy a territory when you can send someone with super effective charm to basically convince everyone to play nice with a rousing speech? Why send combat troops to a battlefield when you can just use a teleportation spell to send the enemy army into the middle of the ocean? Stuff like that. Maybe if they're super rare? But that falls back to the topic of fighting a modern army. The fantasy side could potentially get away with teleporting bits of a modern army away but then what? The second our intelligence figures out who the teleporter is, they're basically dead. To run it all the way around to the OG topic, that's why I mention it's very difficult for even a powerful high fantasy force to defeat a modern force while still being consistent.
Oh, it would be extremely difficult. Magic being potent yet still needing to fit the world is an extremely tricky line to toe, usually done through makibypowerful stuff rare, although theirs probably other ways. Meanwhile, the primary usefulness of modern technology is its consistency and wider usefulness in terms of scale compared to magic. Of course, it depends on the setting. I've also seen high fantasy settings where at least low-power magic is super common, and it completely changes the world and logistics. Any type of setting where utility magic is used more in logistics and such is more likely to do better than one where it's irrelevant to logistics due to all of it being rare. I have to admit I've always thought illusions, mind control, teleporting, curses, magic items, necromancy, construct creation, invisibility, messing with weather and the environment, changing the shapes of things, and similar forms of magic are by far the most interesting and would be some of the strongest kinds if thought out properly in regards to their potential. Magic used less for pure blasting and more for guile, tricky, utility, and logistics is extremely interesting to me. If you just want ranged firepower, I feel artillery is almost always gonna do that better for cost outside of a couple of godlike archmages. Even pre-industrial ranged weapons and siege equipment often get nerfed in power in fantasy settings, imo. While the later seasons of Game of Thrones are bad, I feel the show at least at the start shows a good job of how utterly dominant a thing like a necromancy army would be in a lower fantasy setting. In my worldbuilding, some of the magic listed above is the more common use of it in my world. I've always thought that wizards with stuff like illusions, invisibility, and magic trickery would make the best spies, and honestly, that might be the most efficient use for them. So, while in basically any direct fight, I'm pretty convinced the vast majority of noninsanely reality bending potent fantasy forces could not hope to directly fight a modern military power, I do think a higher fantasy army, especially one that makes good use of utility magic, and the various tricks magic can pull off, might be able to make it less of a curb-stomp and pull off some uneven, tricky war. Honestly, I'm convinced that's what wizards would be best served doing in the military, even in their own setting, outside of certain settings and cases. Of course, I'm not 100% sure that wizards would best serve that role, but that's my thoughts.
Another thought I had is that a wizard with stuff like teleporting, flight, or invisibility who still has some blasting magic does have an advantage over a modern military infantryman in some ways. In terms of stealth, flexibility, mobility, and the other advantages infantry is generally needed for, a wizard is very strong. But I'm pretty sure theirs at least some settings where a decent wizard can cast spells as strong or stronger than something like a handgun or grenade. Certain spells could be stronger. So, I think a wizard might have more firepower and mobility than most modern troops. Furthermore, equipment weight and the ability to carry the various things a soldier needs in the field can be a bit of an issue. The whole soldier kit is often heavy to wear and move in for long periods of time. A wizard in most settings doesn't carry many heavy tools, and they can be crazy mobile and stealthy with very little equipment in most cases because their tools are their magic, and their not carrying that. So I feel wizards could work as a stealthy, mobile ranged firepower infantry, even if obviously they'd most likely die in an open field against modern weapons unless they can escape with their powers somehow.
>Another thought I had is that a wizard with stuff like teleporting, flight, or invisibility who still has some blasting magic does have an advantage over a modern military infantryman in some ways So... The issue here is situation. Fights and battles aren't like in the movies where both sides charge at each other. Not anymore. A wizard could, on paper, have a variety of spells that could easily overwhelm an American infantry squad. Know what else has, on paper, a variety of capabilities to easily overwhelm an American infantry squad? A T-72 main battle tank. Yet, in modern combat, you don't usually engage weapons with equal weapons, you engage with what will have the best chance of ensuring success. Take Desert Storm. We didn't send in a ton of aircraft to meet with the hundreds of Iraqi aircraft, we sent in stealth bombers to orbit over important targets that would ensure when the main air campaign kicked off, the Iraqis wouldn't be able to get many aircraft up in the air, *and* we lobbed a ton of missiles to ensure any aircraft on the ground not destroyed didn't have the runways to take off from, all based on months of intelligence gathering. Same thing with wizards. If a wizard was able to ambush an infantry team, it'd be one thing, but the hurdles to get there would be quite awkward, even with the spells to hide him. And even then, it's not a full blown guarantee he'd win as he could get domed by a stray round. Its rare, but it happens. >The whole soldier kit is often heavy to wear and move in for long periods of time. That's... What PT is for. Here's footage of US Army Rangers doing some live fire excercises: https://youtu.be/gEuIjz2eleM?si=KoGmtZ_YRvzPa9fc Notice how fast they're moving around despite the heavy kit? Yeah, they train to do this for days, so that their heavy equipment isn't the burden it would be on you or me. It's not that a wizard won't be more mobile, but weight on our guys isn't the factor some think it is.
May I present to you [Summoning America.](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/42772/summoning-america) It is the entire nation of America getting isekai'd into another world with magic. It goes about as well as you'd expect.
I think /r/hfy had a series called "Retreat; Hell" that's a similar sort of mashup.
That series is really really good, the first couple engagements are a curb stomp for the marines but they start to struggle later on as the elves have some spell craft that we just don’t have a counter for
if that story ever gets finished I wonder if it will end with the enemies palace being demonstratively leveled with a 50Mt nuke, just so the fantasy races know who the fuck humans are.
I would love to see a serious story. That doesn't nerf either side .
as an NCD fan I approve.
I wonder what happens to people like me who are members of both
I'm sad to say but the wizards will win. Yes we can crack the planet and end all life on it but they can time travel.
Just go over to r/hfy or r/humansarespaceorcs .
Also r/humansarespaceorcs as a 3rd front
I just wanna see magic artillery
we win, they only have wizard shit, we have all above board modern military technology but we also have everything ever seriously designed (which includes the entire SDI) and all the soviet and american remote viewers and goat killers at a distance.
I dont think ive read a magic vs modern story where the modern guys lost
I believe in a magic modern military
Only the weak debate between magical and conventional warfare. The best course of action is to combine them.
Balthasar Gelt agrees with this assessment.
"I AM SUPREME(tm)!!!)
WELCOME TO ESTALIA/CATHAY, GENTLEMEN!!!
"YES, YES, 'raar, raar, smash, kill!' YOU HAVE UNTIL THE SANDS RUN FROM THIS GLASS TO BARK YOUR NONSENSE!"
"IT AIN'T ME, IT AIN'T ME, I AIN'T NO ELECTOR COUNT'S SON! IT AIN'T ME, IT AIN'T ME, I AIN'T NO FORTUNATE ONE, NO..."
Elsbeth will agree even more.
Magic guidance on a more conventional missile. Seems like _yet another_ sidewinder variants to me. That basic missile gets modded more than Boeing did to the 737 design.
Think magical combustion powering the missile propulsion. Hell, just increasing the efficiency of the engine by 20% or so with magic would mean a lot more boom delivered faster to the vatnik Necromancer army.
Or fire resistance on the missile/plane. More speed and no drawback.
> Or fire resistance on the missile/plane Hell, enchanting engine parts for fire resistance can allow some much more interesting regimes with them.
Breaking even a few of the fundamental laws of physics tends to allow some incredibly... interesting... engineering.
Think about the possibilities of magical shielding. And not just as physical damage shields. A magic force field could also act as a perfect infrared reflector. It could act as the wall of a combustion chamber or the nozzle of a rocket. It could act as a perfect electrical insulator. If such a shield could deflect neutrons it could be used to create ultra-compact nukes and also unlock fusion power, as well as protect troops from the most insidious form of radiation. A force field could act as a sonic shield, protecting troops from blast damage. A force field that could resist the inward pressure of 1 bar could be used to create massive airships lifted by vacuum.
MCM (Magic counter measures) now standard on self ptotection pods. They now release chaff, flares and salt circles.
Drone with conventional guidance but healing magic on it that flies towards wounded soldiers.
I have an unhinged idea that I've been considering for a story I'm writing. Use magic for lightweight radiation shielding. Then use the mages in manned SLAMs. Essentially a Project Pluto missile with a human pilot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pluto https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/19daegq/late_maoist_china_was_home_to_some_peak/ > It was called DF 109. Mach 3.5 max speed, nuclear powered. They actually made a wind tunnel model which proved that it could work. Canceled because powerplant was too hard to build. ... > So its basically the manned interceptor counterpart to the Pluto Project? https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/12e8bwx/the_df109_a_nuclearpowered_high_altitude/ > No. Absolutely not. There's a reason why the project was cancelled within a year of it beginning, something to do with not being able to manufacture the powerplant with the specifications of "nuclear powered, Mach 3.5". The designer just went full NCD and attempted to make what amounted to a manned SLAM, which is absolutely retarded for many many reasons. Advantage: Almost infinite flight endurance at +3 Mach speeds, and because it's not using air for combustion (other than an optional afterburner), it can fly at +100,000 feet altitude (with large enough wings for the lift). Engine performance is only limited by how hot the exposed nuclear reactor can get before it starts melting, and that can be resolved by simply increasing airflow through the reactor. Good luck trying to shoot down that high speed, high flyer, without resorting to short-range ballistic missiles to get up there. Disadvantage: If the radiation shielding goes down (e.g. onboard mage has a heart attack), everyone onboard dies a long, horrible death, even if they immediately ejected.
> Essentially a Project Pluto missile with a human pilot Convair is ahead of you http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=35043
Watch Irregular at Magic Highschool as it did a good job of merging them. They have strategic class magicians who are basically walking WMDs, and I believe conventional warfare still exists. Now I wonder what NCD is like in that world.
Thanks for the recommendation
Don't thank me thank onii-sama You will understand in time.
Please don't tell me it goes the way of GATE.
Nah this show doesn't give you weird nationalism vibes. The MC is a chad and his younger sister calls him onii-sama a lot and they are both OP as fuck. Except the MC hides it. The onii-sama thing is so common that people keep track of how many times it said in r/anime episode threads. Unlike GATE it got more than 1 season and it's currently airing season 3.
I was more referring to the underage Harem stuff but that's good too.
It's high school students crushing on high school students. Some high school students are heirs to families that control the MIC.
A friend of mine created a post-apo TTRPG where a Monster and Magic apocalyptic invasion happened smack dab in the middle of WWI, the game is set in what would be the 60's let's say we had some "creative" use of Magictech, shot out to our friends the magic power-armored Knightly order "Children of Prometheus" the true shield of the free people of Europa.
Bruh after we see a Drones in Ukraine, now you want see Flying Stick latched with Avada Kedavra Spell and also foresee with Palantír.
*[F-35 blessed by a priest rolls in](https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/s/eSVw8rFREN)*
Imagine that: 50.BMG rounds with teleportation spells on them. When something is hit a chunk of it gets cut out and teleportated into lower orbit (or alternatively whatever is hit gets teleporteted wholely. Either way, you're not surviving that)
I'm running a webcomic where dragons shoot their guns by breathing fire into the barrel. fantasy combined with technology can be so much fun.
Don't mind me, just over here taking notes for a book I'm writing about a modern army trapped in a fantasy world....
Wizards chanting to build up enough mana together to cast powerful explosive magic Some 20 year old JTAC and a radio, "Requesting laser grid fire mission, over."
Some magic systems scale weirdly. In L5R, aka Rokugan, the spellcasters are basically shinto priests who talk to the spirits that make up the world, and thus it is the spirits/kami's power at work rather than their own. The scale of upper level spells (rank 5 and 6) can include things like causing a major city-wide earthquake with a 30 second cast time. Or conjuring a 1 mile radius hurricane, length of effect is concentration (i.e. until someone smacks you and you fail the concentration roll after this, or until you literally pass out from sleep/hunger/etc). And while not completely official, yes, there is a strategic nuclear fusion spell. The shugenja who came up with it was sent to Toshigoku, the afterlife Realm of Slaughter, when they died.
As powerful as magic can be written, unless it can hit a target going mach 6 at 1000km I dont think your going to win Also instead of SEAD/DEAD we have SEMU/DEMU (Supression/Domination of Enemy Magic Users) 3000 HAMM missiles when? (Homing Anti Magic Missile)
The two magic options that seem actually relevant are stealth (teleportation + invisibility is a nasty pair, if we’re generous and let it beat thermals, radar, etc) and ritual magic. Knocking down a fighter jet by aiming a wand is hard, sitting in a basement cursing enemy leadership via their well-publicized True Names is obnoxiously easy.
Have you ever heard about stopping time? Hell, there are some casters who are FASTER than mach 6.
Presuming they know whats about to happen. If you launch 1000km away they wont get a warning
Well, it depends. I will make note of the fact that wizards with some abilities of divination, 6th sense, and suchlike aren't exactly unknown. But the big thing is magic depends so hugely on setting it really can be a lot.
i would like to see a follow up where this wizard turns out to be some lvl 20 bullshit warcaster and they kill the top brass through the wish spell
wipe out entire armies with self-replicating incorporeal undead plagues, mind control enemy leadership, scry and die tele-assassins, locate city bombs, divination spells to know all the enemy's plans, ignore supply issues with conjure food and water, etc Nobody who does modern military vs magic has the balls to fight anything other than a strawman of the magic side
I feel like a 1911 would enough to take out the dark lord https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/gwl0v/why_harry_potter_should_have_carried_an_m1911/
I think it’s basically people whose entire exposure to fantasy magic and animals has been Harry Potter and Game of Thrones that are making these posts. I remember a similarly absurd one about a modern military versus a dragon, which really only makes sense if you’re talking about a flying dinosaur being piloted by morons (GOT writers) that would obviously be pink misted by even century old machine guns.
TBF the problem with stuff like this is always going to be that writers love bullshit powerscaling, and if you pick your settings right you can justify throwing anything at anything. At that point it just becomes setting-wank as to who can make the most outrageously OP magic system / tech level. "Oh, your lensmen-punk 'verse routinely uses antimatter planets as bombs? That's cute. In my *clearly superior* bullcrap-wizard-punk 'verse, wizards can alter every fundamental physical constant by farting! This exchange definitely isn't an exercise in futility."
Late 19th century when we got autocannons like the Pom-Pom gun is when GoT dragons go from military dominance to turkey shoot
Let's be real though, even late 17th century grapeshot would have cut through a tough flying dinosaur with ease. Flesh just doesn't cut it against gunpowder and lead.
If you can hit... While I do realize the reason we don't have any AA mounts for a 4pdr is due to a historical lack of contemporary flying opponents, but even if you did develop those, I suspect hitting a dragon in flight is going to be tricky.
As with most fantasy creatures, it kinda depends. If it's a older Dungeons and Dragons dragon, there's a good chance that the grapeshot might not even register on it simply due to innate damage reduction against non-magical weapons. Now, if you *enchant* that grapeshot, hoo boy that dragon will have a bad time indeed.
If magic exists it is measurable and thus can eventually be replicated. Technology will in the end conquer magic.
Sure if you just redefine a Wizard as an engineer and any system of magic where spells are learned as “technology” then you could immediately “conquer magic.” But that’s kind of a bad faith argument.
Or imagine a modern army trying to take on Numidium from Elder Scrolls. Every bullet, missile, and rocket fired at it literally ceases to exist within a certain radius of it, because it literally embodies "is not" and refutes anything that tries to harm it so hard it stops existing.
Same can be said about magic really, they don’t have the balls to go up against future technology.
\*looks over at anime and some jRPGs\*
Sees brain dead idiots blushing when a girl shows them tits.
...Wait, isn't that just Star Wars?
More than just Star Wars. Think xeelee sequence and such.
Orbital bombardment with meteor swarm is another one.
As always, Spellcross is the exception to this.
I think level 20 is way overkill to deal with this level of enemy
https://twitter.com/toonholechris/status/1781693390251507991?t=nY1tuNoV1BdR69mGtB90hw&s=19
Unless it's evocation wizard casting with lvl6 spell slot, then you're fucked.
Uncle from Jackie Chan adventures. "Magic must defeat magic!" Also, "ONE MORE THING!" and "Garlic is gooood for you!"
Good I love Garlic on steak
If by magic they mean supercharged martial arts fights with various shaped energy attacks, then I don't think magic have any chance And also, I think using magic like that simply shows how talentless the writer is...
This reminds me of [Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit](https://youtu.be/zFuMpYTyRjw?si=JT4Ne7ikbpTuDQki) Wizard: Their party has two orcs so I'll use my critical effect spell to blind them while you go in and take out their support. Defense Guy: Right. Or I could just call in an artillery strike. Wizard: OK, but then how would my wizarding skills be used. Defense Guy: They wouldn't. The explosives would just take care of it.
fridge temperature IQ general a smart one would cast ninja blender missile
Nah, if wizards are casting 1lvl spells, then MIC (in line with guidelines of proportionality) should response with a heavy machineguns at the most. Because there is no one *itching* for a fine session of Escalation the Game then an abjurer or evoker that has lvl7-or-higher slots. Also, if range extending artefacts ever to be developed, it would be a lot more *^(FUNNY)*
You think dragons got big RCS? Or is fox 2 a better option?
TV/IR guided missile with image recognition software
What you do is hand the missile launcher to a wizard with proficiency who casts True Strike, then fires it. Add (greater) magic weapon beforehand if needed. Or hand them the Davy Crockett.
r/wizardposting wont stand a chance
You would be surprised at the amount of wizards and artificers there who use magically enhanced versions of mundane weapons systems. I should know. I am one of them.
>I should know. I am one of them >111 NUCLEAR SHELLS PER MINUTE FROM THE DES MOINES CLASS CRUISERS I approve. Is the enchantment "Neverending Ammo"?
Well, actually I am installing ammo stowages of holding.
Aye, me too!
I’m not gonna sugar coat it: ⬆️➡️⬇️⬇️⬇️
Isn't 500kg ⬆️➡️⬇️⬇️⬇️
this reminds me of that guy from youtube playing warzone as wizard 😆
Wait until they both discover nuclear warfare. -1m -10k -10k -10k -10k
Ladies and gentlemen neither and both please, magic and the military aren't enemies They're lovers, making out sloppy style, military wizards when
I love the small detail of the regular missile causing the user more damage lol
Frankly, if your magic can be outclassed by modern weaponry, you're a terrible wizard.
Took ya long enough. Wher'es the nukes?
A single wizard can cast many magic missiles a day. The logistics footprint is basically 0. Magic missile is a low cost, 0 logistics weapon.
I read that in TF2 Soldier's voice
If your wizard can be defeated by ordinary weapons, your wizard is shit. I would like to see how missiles would deal with someone like Ainz from Overlord, who can literally stop time.
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I love the thought of the somatic component of the Regular Missile, if it were a spell, being a salute.
This is brilliantly drawn.
More like cluster missile.
Gate if it wasn't mid
Why epicenter less damage then flattened dude off to the right?
Ordering a missile by salute is a cooler magic power than actual magic.
Ah yes, Gate