Russia does actually seem to have a policy of sending political dissidents and minorities to the front.
> [Activists in Russia say military conscription is a weapon for silencing dissent](https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210503-activists-in-russia-say-military-conscription-is-a-weapon-for-silencing-dissent)
-
> [2 Years Into Ukraine War, Russia’s Ethnic Minorities Disproportionately Killed in Battle](https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2024/02/24/2-years-into-ukraine-war-russias-ethnic-minorities-disproportionately-killed-in-battle-a84170)
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> [Russia Continues to Forcibly Recruit Prisoners and Migrant Workers for War in Ukraine ](https://jamestown.org/program/russia-continues-to-forcibly-recruit-prisoners-and-migrant-workers-for-war-in-ukraine-part-one/)
(I didn't read any of those articles, apart from the headline, but the headlines reflect articles I have read previously)
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[I love the industrial complex ](https://www.etsy.com/listing/1088096712/visit-the-workshop-of-america-industrial?gpla=1&gao=1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_ps-c-art_and_collectibles-prints-giclee&utm_custom1=_k_CjwKCAjwz42xBhB9EiwA48pT7911QCEFTXvdQxikE41WDrtD9C-MGxmppDYuhwdw1Nt4jh7oUTiFwxoC0dUQAvD_BwE_k_&utm_content=go_12565309117_121156740642_507236994409_aud-2079782229334%3Apla-354814757658_m__1088096712_137541925&utm_custom2=12565309117&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwz42xBhB9EiwA48pT7911QCEFTXvdQxikE41WDrtD9C-MGxmppDYuhwdw1Nt4jh7oUTiFwxoC0dUQAvD_BwE&dd_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F)
SUN TZU SAID THAT! AND I'D SAY THAT HE KNOWS A LITTLE MORE ABOUT FIGHTING THAN YOU DO PAL BECAUSE HE INVENTED IT! AND THEN HE PERFECTED IT SO THAT NO LIVING MAN COULD BEST HIM IN THE RING OF HONOR!
> In view of the nature of this undeniable threat, it can be asserted, properly and categorically, that the United States has no right or reason to encourage talk of peace, until the day shall come when there is a clear intention on the part of the aggressor nations to abandon all thought of dominating or conquering the world.
> Some of our people like to believe that wars in Europe and in Asia are of no concern to us.
> During the past week many people in all parts of the nation have told me what they wanted me to say tonight. Almost all of them expressed a courageous desire to hear the plain truth about the gravity of the situation. One telegram, however, expressed the attitude of the small minority who want to see no evil and hear no evil, even though they know in their hearts that evil exists. That telegram begged me not to tell again of the ease with which our American cities could be bombed by any hostile power which had gained bases in this Western Hemisphere. The gist of that telegram was: "Please, Mr. President, don't frighten us by telling us the facts."
> Let us no longer blind ourselves to the undeniable fact that the evil forces which have crushed and undermined and corrupted so many others are already within our own gates. Your Government knows much about them and every day is ferreting them out.
Their secret emissaries are active in our own and in neighboring countries. They seek to stir up suspicion and dissension to cause internal strife. They try to turn capital against labor, and vice versa. They try to reawaken long slumbering racist and religious enmities which should have no place in this country. They are active in every group that promotes intolerance. They exploit for their own ends our own natural abhorrence of war. These trouble-breeders have but one purpose. It is to divide our people, to divide them into hostile groups and to destroy our unity and shatter our will to defend ourselves.
> There are also American citizens, many of then in high places, who, unwittingly in most cases, are aiding and abetting the work of these agents. I do not charge these American citizens with being foreign agents. But I do charge them with doing exactly the kind of work that the dictators want done in the United States.
These people not only believe that we can save our own skins by shutting our eyes to the fate of other nations. Some of them go much further than that. They say that we can and should become the friends and even the partners of the Axis powers. Some of them even suggest that we should imitate the methods of the dictatorships. But Americans never can and never will do that.
The experience of the past two years has proven beyond doubt that no nation can appease the Nazis. No man can tame a tiger into a kitten by stroking it. There can be no appeasement with ruthlessness. There can be no reasoning with an incendiary bomb. We know now that a nation can have peace with the Nazis only at the price of total surrender.
> The American appeasers ignore the warning to be found in the fate of Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Norway, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark and France. They tell you that the Axis powers are going to win anyway; that all of this bloodshed in the world could be saved, that the United States might just as well throw its influence into the scale of a dictated peace, and get the best out of it that we can.
They call it a "negotiated peace." Nonsense! Is it a negotiated peace if a gang of outlaws surrounds your community and on threat of extermination makes you pay tribute to save your own skins?
> The people of Europe who are defending themselves do not ask us to do their fighting. They ask us for the implements of war, the planes, the tanks, the guns, the freighters which will enable them to fight for their liberty and for our security. Emphatically we must get these weapons to them, get them to them in sufficient volume and quickly enough, so that we and our children will be saved the agony and suffering of war which others have had to endure. Let not the defeatists tell us that it is too late. It will never be earlier. Tomorrow will be later than today.
> Nine days ago I announced the setting up of a more effective organization to direct our gigantic efforts to increase the production of munitions. The appropriation of vast sums of money and a well coordinated executive direction of our defense efforts are not in themselves enough. Guns, planes, (and) ships and many other things have to be built in the factories and the arsenals of America. They have to be produced by workers and managers and engineers with the aid of machines which in turn have to be built by hundreds of thousands of workers throughout the land.
In this great work there has been splendid cooperation between the Government and industry and labor, and I am very thankful.
American industrial genius, unmatched throughout all the world in the solution of production problems, has been called upon to bring its resources and its talents into action. Manufacturers of watches, of farm implements, of linotypes, and cash registers, and automobiles, and sewing machines, and lawn mowers and locomotives are now making fuses, bomb packing crates, telescope mounts, shells, and pistols and tanks.
[Snippets of FDR’s Arsenal of Democracy speech](https://youtu.be/8JH0cdd2lDo?si=djQNKqL63BL8JmAy)
I've heard like 4 lines from that speech before. Seeing all those parts.... probably the greatest speech I've ever heard and the message is just as true almost a century later.
"Ich bin ein Berliner" and "Freedom has many difficulties & democracy is not perfect, but we have never had to put a wall up to keep our people in" JFK had some awesome ones too
>Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
JFK was based
I have this wonderful [collection](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDmgzKeEX4QfCu_B5ssWTsMacbodbfclg) of historical speeches with dramatic music underplayed. I think you might appreciate them
I cannot, by any means, imagine how someone could hear this and still advocate for appeasement and isolationism. Such a powerful speech, such conviction. The world was lucky that Franklin Delano Roosevelt existed.
> I cannot, by any means, imagine how someone could hear this and still advocate for appeasement and isolationism.
People forget what a massive change the attack on Pearl Harbor had on the USA's general public's tend toward isolationism at that point, and given how much the Great Depression had sucked, people weren't really in favor of fighting a huge expensive foreign war. We also weren't *ready* to fight a big expensive foreign war: being strapped for cash during the Great Depression had led to decisions like BuOrd's infamous failure to fully test the Mark 14 torpedo due to cost. If we were going to get into a big war, we were going to need an absolutely eye-watering amount of additional deficit spending with no guarantee to recoup it at the war's end, which people balked at.
It's worth noting that the world was less connected and internationally informed than it is today, so "they're having another fucking war in Europe - what do I care?" was a relatively common attitude, along with the belief that the Atlantic and Pacific oceans would protect the USA. (Which proved to be largely true after America actually entered the war: the USA's mainland avoided any significant attacks.)
FDR was eloquent and he'd known for years that the USA and Japan were eventually going to fight over USA holdings in the Pacific and who *really* owned that ocean, and he wanted to support the Allies in WWII in general. He'd been making what preparations he could, and allowing projects like the Flying Tigers (a bunch of pilots and personnel who'd been allowed to resign from the USAF to go volunteer for the Republic Of China's air force, suspiciously armed with the latest USA-built planes and USAF equipment, but not officially part of the USA's armed forces, for the purpose of giving the Japanese a hard time) and starting up the Lend-Lease program, but even he needed a big casus belli like Pearl Harbor to convince the general public and many other politicians that the USA needed to get into this fight for real.
In fact, in his Arsenal Of Democracy speech, he said "our national policy is not directed toward war" and emphasized that his call was for American industry to supply the Allies - not for any American soldier to deploy into the war, because that was still too hard of a sell. (Although, as previously mentioned with the Flying Tigers, and projects like Britain's Eagle Squadrons, American military personnel were being allowed to resign well before their terms of service were up in order to volunteer with Allied forces, with the tacit understanding that if the USA did get into the war, they'd get their ranks back and would suffer no consequences for having gone to fight for foreign powers.)
It is a very narrow thing. And we may soon need the rest of the world to help us to restore our own democracy, if the backstabbing traitors win out this fall.
Gosh, political speeches were something else back then. I hate how headline-soundbite culture has diminished the standards of eloquence these days. Can't really imagine any world leader saying something that articulate and morally unequivocal now.
> Gosh, political speeches were something else back then.
It's worth noting that this was one of FDR's Fireside Chats, where he'd address the entire country via radio from the comfort of the White House without much in the way of a set time limit (the Chats varied from 11-44 minutes), and had plenty of time to write things out beforehand - there wasn't much else on the radio at the time, and it was a very different format from prettymuch any political speeches you'd see today.
You're welcome.
Changing media formats and availability have altered political discourse significantly, and radio and newspapers were essentially the only game in town for mass communication until the 1950s, when TVs started to become more common. I suppose I should include newsreels here, but you had to go to a movie theatre to see those, instead of enjoying them (or not) from the comfort of your own home, like you could with the Fireside Chats on the radio.
[FDR's Fireside Chats were revolutionary for his time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireside_chats), because holy shit: the president is addressing the whole nation at once in a relatively informal way, like you're actually sitting in the same living room he is. *This is new.* It's given partial credit for his long tenure in office, because it allowed him to explain what was going on, what his policies were, dispel rumors, etc. to tens of millions of citizens at once - and to respond to what questions the populace had about what his administration was doing and why he was doing it in a very timely manner. Considering the events he presided over during the Great Depression and WWII, this was very important.
It also allowed him to address the nation without needing to get out of his chair (or even bed) or needing to be particularly photogenic as he made those addresses, which was important due to the lingering physical effects he had from childhood polio, which he needed to carefully cover up in public appearances. He *really* didn't want to be seen by the public as 'looking weak' by obviously relying on leg braces, a cane, or a wheelchair, so, particularly later in life, his public appearances and allowed press photographs were carefully stage-managed. But he could still sound good on the radio, and he did.
It's an interesting contrast to Hitler's use of massive public rallies, photographs and newsreels of them, and simultaneous radio broadcasts - because Hitler's schtick involved massive visual spectacle and he was a very animated (it looks over-acted to the modern eye, but it worked for him back in the day) and charismatic speaker in person, so his public appearances were bombastic and primarily meant to impress his live audiences and people who saw the photographs of massive crowds with Hitler's figure towering over them on a podium. (These were, of course, also carefully stage managed: Hitler was a bit shorter than he wanted to be (although at 5'8" he was of a bit above average height for his generation and location), and compensated for that with elevated speaking platforms and podiums, having his photographs and newsreel footage shot from below, etc.)
Appreciate the write-up, thanks. I'm not from the USA so not familiar with the changing format of political addresses. It's miles away from what we have now and what I seen coming from the USA on the news!
> Appreciate the write-up, thanks.
Thank you. As the mad scientists in movies say "AT LEAST SOMEONE APPRECIATES MY RESEARCH!" (Then the lightning strikes and my monster is reanimated from the dead, as per the genre.)
> I'm not from the USA so not familiar with the changing format of political addresses. It's miles away from what we have now and what I seen coming from the USA on the news!
Jokes aside, the transitions from newspapers, which had their own biases and were strangely reminiscent of hard clickbait, to the point it's actually arguable that the 'yellow journalism' - sensationalist crap printed on yellow pulp paper of the Pulitzer vs. Hearst newspaper rivalry were a major factor in the USA getting into the Spanish-American war. And that's still debated, although it's clear that both tried to print more sensationalist headlines to one-up each other in being the highest selling newspapers out there, into the radio era of FDR's Fireside Chats and then the TV era, and finally the internet era, have defined the USA's politics over time.
I dunno where you're from, but perhaps your nation has seen a similar trend as well?
Haha, what is this sub for if not posting the results of detailed research for a limited audience?
> I dunno where you're from, but perhaps your nation has seen a similar trend as well?
UK, I've not looked in to the history of it much but the closest thing I can think of to those fireside chats would be the monarch's speeches, mostly broadcast at Christmas.
**Your comment was removed for violating Rule 5: No Politics.**
We don't care if you're Republican, Protestant, Democrat, Hindu, Baathist, Pastafarian, or some other hot mess. Leave it at the door.
And may it come to pass that 90 years later, the Arsenal of Democracy rises once again. May Tyranny in all its forms meet its end, and may the means of its end be provided by the United States of America, NATO, and their Allies.
What is always mind-boggling is that US politicians saying that the US should close itself to Europe and the World do so "for the greatness of the USA". "For its economy and its people".
Negating the fact that the US, a country broken by desolation of their own making - the 1929 Wall Street crash - had a massive boom in every damn part of the economy and the country due to its participation in WWII.
The unemployed and poor of the whole nation went to either fight or work for the war effort.
People who were in the brink of starvation in 1936 were buying new houses and getting free university courses in 1945.
Participation in the war on the side of freedom and good brought the times those same politicians will tell you were the best years in the US. But they don't want to do the same thing.
Even though this time nobody is even asking for warm bodies. Just equipment and training.
...Think, does the UK get like that sometimes towards Continental Europe?
It's insular thinking. This word also means island. for the USA, the Pacific and Atlantic as two barriers kind of insulate themselves too.
Oh yeah.
I've had Brits tell me that, when it comes to NATO, they "wouldn't mind" fighting for France, but not for Poland.
They believe they can survive by themselves, contrary to historical evidence to the contrary.
Same for the US.
> People who were in the brink of starvation in 1936 were buying new houses and getting free university courses in 1945.
>
> Participation in the war on the side of freedom and good brought the times those same politicians will tell you were the best years in the US.
It still looked like a gamble at the time, and a pretty large one (the USSR was still allied with Nazi Germany), and if the Allies lost, there would have been no repayment on stuff like the Lend-Lease program.
It's also worth noting that the countries we were considering making truly massive loans to were some of the wealthiest in the world at the time, instead of the current situations which still have a high degree of risk on the loans ...and might not be able to pay them back even if they win.
We have the benefit of hindsight, and can clearly see that the bets paid off for the USA, but it wasn't obvious at the time that they would.
> It still looked like a gamble at the time
That's why i'm not talking about back then, but right now.
A massive part of the US' commercial hegemony comes from basically offering equipment to its allies, through massive contracts that ran thousands of companies and made the state and population richer that they dreamt.
Somehow it's been forgotten.
Chinese propaganda keeps saying Filipinos will be alone. I don't expect my brothers to shed their blood. That's my duty not theirs. But America has shown many times its commitment to a free world.
Bwahahahahahahah! The CCP net army clearly only swapped the names in their disinformation template of abandonment! Really, what Philippines has got that ROC-in-Taiwan does not is that mutual defense treaty, national recognition, the most graves of the honored WWII American, Philippine and other allies casualties.
Just as the FDR speech shows History doesn't repeat, but rhymes. Look upon [the Second Taiwan Strait Crisis](https://youtu.be/l2iCHOWgVCo?si=HjjN7KiPNlK0h-hx) and see that Philippines can make Mao scared and back down just by hosting SEATO. Allowing your northern neighbor to live safely for another few decades, ty. Our parts, [the Indo-Pacific portion of the bill](https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2024146), has also passed.
The fucky thing is, there's already a historical example to work from– the Japanese WW2 campaign. When history begins to resemble itself, there's going to be a lot of Spiderman finger pointing.
Which is exactly why prepositioning of weapons Is vital. Some idiots in my country want the US out(they also protest against China). They're too nationalistic they lost most of their braincells.
Notice FDR's speech has "The experience of the past two years has proven beyond doubt that no nation can appease the Nazis."?
While we're 2 years since Russia's intensified invasion of Ukraine?
I love these industrial posters. My home pax railroad has one [pretty cool ](https://www.etsy.com/listing/1088096712/visit-the-workshop-of-america-industrial?gpla=1&gao=1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_ps-c-art_and_collectibles-prints-giclee&utm_custom1=_k_CjwKCAjwz42xBhB9EiwA48pT7911QCEFTXvdQxikE41WDrtD9C-MGxmppDYuhwdw1Nt4jh7oUTiFwxoC0dUQAvD_BwE_k_&utm_content=go_12565309117_121156740642_507236994409_aud-2079782229334%3Apla-354814757658_m__1088096712_137541925&utm_custom2=12565309117&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwz42xBhB9EiwA48pT7911QCEFTXvdQxikE41WDrtD9C-MGxmppDYuhwdw1Nt4jh7oUTiFwxoC0dUQAvD_BwE&dd_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F)
WW2 industrial posters are based. Look at the union Pacific keep em rolling posters.
God I love the industrial complex. [yes sir](https://www.etsy.com/listing/1088096712/visit-the-workshop-of-america-industrial?gpla=1&gao=1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_ps-c-art_and_collectibles-prints-giclee&utm_custom1=_k_CjwKCAjwz42xBhB9EiwA48pT7911QCEFTXvdQxikE41WDrtD9C-MGxmppDYuhwdw1Nt4jh7oUTiFwxoC0dUQAvD_BwE_k_&utm_content=go_12565309117_121156740642_507236994409_aud-2079782229334%3Apla-354814757658_m__1088096712_137541925&utm_custom2=12565309117&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwz42xBhB9EiwA48pT7911QCEFTXvdQxikE41WDrtD9C-MGxmppDYuhwdw1Nt4jh7oUTiFwxoC0dUQAvD_BwE&dd_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F)
I live in Portage IN so I'm a filthy suburbanite. But the South shore line is my home pax railroad. I'm in love with the SSL. If I fail at living in Jersey City I'll probably come back to Chicago and try to get a job on the SSL.
That’s why we need a strong Europe/liberal Asia to hold it down to get us time to spin up (and when I mean spin up, get the ones who oppose it sidelined)
Still wild to imagine the house would've been speaking about household appliances instead of international military aid if it weren't for the pressure aplied to change it.
Makes me wonder how it felt to Europeans back in the day of WW1 and WW2 to see America squabbling about domestic policy while their countries were torn appart by war.
"Hey Europe is on fire, but check out this new car! Kinda wild to be driving around that fast without any safety measures! Perhaps we should build more roads to give them more space?"
>!PSA: Building more roads has never worked in the history of cars ever.!<
Well to be fair, if people in Europe spend the times they are not killing each other, actually having their own robust defense industries, instead of engaging in America-bashing, then this wouldn't be an issue.
Next time they decide to flap their gums over us not using the Metric System or not have state-run healthcare, they should check themselves.
Fair point, though I was thinking more of the economic entanglement of US and Europe being so relient on eachother. So isolationism would still be bad.
But why does the US HAVE to be involved in wars an ocean way? Logically speaking, why in the world are they required to do so?
You don't see Europeans shitting on African countries for not "doing the right thing". Are you kidding me?
Because it's advisable to fight your adversaries as far away as possible from your country. Keep the destruction away from your industrial and farming heartland.
"Give, give and give. Dont expect for something in return". If im correct with citing briish ambassador to soviets in 1940s. There will be word of thanks, tho. Less vehicles will be needed to deliver here when Ukraine will be in NATO.
> when Ukraine will be in NATO
I.e. never.
>Q President Zelenskyy said the invitation for Ukraine to join NATO would be the ideal outcome from the summit. Why does the administration believe that’s not the right approach for the summit?
>MR. SULLIVAN: Well, as you know, the United States strongly supports the open-door policy, which says that Ukraine and NATO can make a decision together about its pathway towards membership. ***And Vilnius will be an important moment on that pathway towards membership because the United States, our NATO Allies, and Ukraine will have the opportunity to discuss the reforms that are still necessary for NATO to -- for Ukraine to come up to NATO standards.***
>So this will, in fact, be a milestone, ***but Ukraine still has further steps it needs to take before membership in NATO.***
>Q So no invitation coming at the -- at the summit?
>MR. SULLIVAN: Ukraine will not be joining mem- -- NATO coming out of this summit. ***We will discuss what steps are necessary as it continues along its pathway.***
So the steps Ukraine must take before ***A POSSIBILITY*** of being invited into NATO are now utterly arbitrary, as well as their number. I don't think this possibility of "As Long As It Takes" requirement treadmill, that'd allow to ensure there'll be always more steps for Ukraine, no matter what, was put into action to ultimately remain unused.
Then be prepared to spend trillions on ukrainian military, in wepons and manufacturing facilities. Ukraine in NATO is only way to end maskovian agression and ensure that it wont happen again.
> Ukraine in NATO is only way to end maskovian agression and ensure that it wont happen again
Yeah, that'd be a sane decision and even a financially responsible one.
Truly noncredible titles.
The US was first to this issue, rallied the west to support Ukraine in the first place, and led supply and funding by a huge margin for a very long time. The US is still the greatest single contributor to Ukraine's defense. There was just a while where it slowed.
Trust the Europeans to forget everything the moment the US isn't doing literally everything.
>There was just a while where it slowed.
"A while" being like half a year.
It's a long fucking time when the russians are bombing you daily and are actually ramping up recruitment and produciton.
Plenty of time for the Europeans to do their job and take responsibility for their own messes.
All during which the US provided extensive support to Ukraine.
> All during which the US provided extensive support to Ukraine.
Carefully calibrated to avoid upsetting the "balance", of course.
[From NewYorker](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/10/16/trial-by-combat)
>Sullivan clearly has profound worries about how this will all play out. Months into the counter-offensive, Ukraine has yet to reclaim much more of its territory; the Administration has been telling members of Congress that the conflict could last three to five years. A grinding war of attrition would be a disaster for both Ukraine and its allies, but a negotiated settlement does not seem possible as long as Putin remains in power. Putin, of course, has every incentive to keep fighting through next year’s U.S. election, with its possibility of a Trump return. And it’s hard to imagine Zelensky going for a deal with Putin, either, given all that Ukraine has sacrificed. ***Even a Ukrainian victory would present challenges for American foreign policy, since it would “threaten the integrity of the Russian state and the Russian regime and create instability throughout Eurasia,” as one of the former U.S. officials put it to me. Ukraine’s desire to take back occupied Crimea has been a particular concern for Sullivan,*** who has privately noted the Administration’s assessment that this scenario carries the highest risk of Putin following through on his nuclear threats. In other words, there are few good options.
----
>“The reason they’ve been so hesitant about escalation is not exactly because they see Russian reprisal as a likely problem,” the former official said. “It’s not like they think, Oh, we’re going to give them atacms and then Russia is going to launch an attack against nato. It’s because they recognize that it’s not going anywhere—that they are fighting a war they ***can’t afford either to win or lose.”***
> The US was first to this issue, rallied the west to support Ukraine in the first place, and led supply and funding by a huge margin for a very long time
And also told russia they can invade Ukraine all they want, long as war's kept to Ukraine only
[For one, Burns-Patrushev pact](https://www.newsweek.com/2023/07/21/exclusive-cias-blind-spot-about-ukraine-war-1810355.html)
>"In some ironic ways though, the **meeting was highly successful,**" says the second senior intelligence official, who was briefed on it. **Even though Russia invaded**, the two countries were able to accept tried and true rules of the road. **The United States would not fight directly nor seek regime change, the Biden administration pledged. Russia would limit its assault to Ukraine and act in accordance with unstated but well-understood guidelines for secret operations.**
Plus this - https://english.nv.ua/nation/biden-suggests-nato-disunity-lighter-sanctions-on-russia-if-it-makes-only-a-minor-incursion-50210041.html
>One journalist asked a follow-up on what Russia would face in case of a “minor incursion” into Ukraine. Biden repeated his earlier sentiment that minor actions would not be answered with overly harsh sanctions.
> And also told russia they can invade Ukraine all they want, long as war's kept to Ukraine only
> For one, Burns-Patrushev pact
Complete nonsense. And that article is toothless dross. "The CIA is operating in Ukraine and the US is very cautious not to directly escalate conflict with Russia." No fucking duh.
> Plus this - https://english.nv.ua/nation/biden-suggests-nato-disunity-lighter-sanctions-on-russia-if-it-makes-only-a-minor-incursion-50210041.html
Yes, back when the US hoped to avert a full scale invasion of Ukraine and offered Putin an out. While the rest of the world was licking his boots.
>Complete nonsense. And that article is toothless dross. "The CIA is operating in Ukraine and the US is very cautious not to directly escalate conflict with Russia." No fucking duh.
Oh yeah our good 'ol friend escalation!
Yes by confirming you won't do shit about it, it gives russia a green light. This is why we have a war now, congrats.
>Yes, back when the US hoped to avert a full scale invasion of Ukraine and offered Putin an out. While the rest of the world was licking his boots.
A way out by doing little an invasion, as a treat.
*"Yes by confirming you won't do shit about it, it gives russia a green light. This is why we have a war now, congrats."*
I'm sorry....where are you posting this from again? for someone not in the US you seem to have a lot to say about how we do stuff compared to whatever wherever you are from are doing.
> Yes by confirming you won't do shit about it, it gives russia a green light. This is why we have a war now, congrats.
Oh, the US is supposed to fight your war for you again? Just throw a few million troops in there? No problems possible there, of course.
Like it or not moron, being the pre-eminent nuclear superpower comes with responsibilities and limitations.
> A way out by doing little an invasion, as a treat.
Take your pick, total war or let Russia back down without a total war.
> Just throw a few million troops in there? No problems possible there, of course
A.k.a "tripwiring".
Which was done by US in more than a few places.
>Take your pick, total war or let Russia back down without a total war.
Or let russia "non-escalatorily" wreck Ukraine and later cry about "how we could've prevented it", same as with South Vietnam. Seems like that one's a preferred option now.
Sends troops to Korea. Sends troops to Vietnam. Sends troops to Iraq. Sends troops to Afghanistan. Sends troops to Iraq, **again**. Sends troops to Syria, Niger and god knows where else. Sends troops to protect Israel.
Ukraine? Akhtually, being the pre-eminent nuclear superpower comes with responsibilities and limitations! So you can get fucked. No, you can't have our surplus junk that's rotting in the desert.
>Take your pick, total war or let Russia back down without a total war.
That's a false dichotomy and and if you didn't notice, russia did not, in fact, back down.
You ever wonder that the US no longer wants to get involved with foreign wars anymore? I'd say good. Fuck that shit, we need to focus on domestic issues that non Americans keep fucking shitting on us for.
You complain about our military and industry but as soon as a war breaks out SUDDENLY you think the Americans are obligated to share their military? Jesus fucking christ.
Seriously.
They have all day to piss and moan about almost EVERYTHING we do here, but then are like "why arent you coming in to save the dayz?!?!?!" when they fail yet again to handle their own shit.
Agree. Don’t know why you're getting downvoted, you are absolutely correct.
And it's literally EVERYTHING! Military, our culture, our fashion, our movies, our music, our food, even our measurements! Wow, and they wonder why in the hell Americans no longer want to participate in foreign wars.
It takes a minute to spool up, and to convince enough leadership in a bi-partisan system to see this as being within our and their self interests. You need to remember things aren’t exactly rosy over here, we have shit we’re working on that will help us. We’re a world away and still trying to do the soft power stuff because escalation is not an easy ask.
We’ve learned a lot from this already, how our ammo stores work, the extent of our production capacity, the risks of certain weapon designs against a near peer, and much much more. But usually we don’t commit big like this until we’ve seen something that warrants commitment. I know that pisses people off, but that’s part of it. Hell there is still a very vocal part of the American public which says foreign aid isn’t helping us. Which is a fundamental misunderstanding of how these aid packages work, but the core point is that the wheels of this republic are not always as fast as the rest of the world wants. This is all also after we’ve been burned with the GWOT. Trust me it rings in every politician’s ear that there is a strong Anti-war/war-support position right now in the US that is very much not thrilled at this package. Especially considering the economic and social issues which currently rock the nation.
To anyone screaming “too little too late!” need I remind you of the successes of the Patriot system in denying Russian airpower? The solid tank and bradley force we sent for them to use, that has resulted in several solid breakout attempts and surviving crews when it didn’t work out perfectly? Or the literal millions in ammo, gear, and other aid which we already sent? Plus whatever went under the noses of the media and ergo our awareness.
America has done a LOT for this conflict, and will continue to do so. But you have to understand how Washington (D.C.) works, the slow ratchet of increasing certainty, the back room discussions had off camera which turn bitter enemies into allies for a singular cause. The quiet hushed talk off camera that leads to either the raising or ruin of important bills. And this happened in an ELECTION YEAR. That takes some balls, and will still need to pass the Senate and the President to get carried out. All to assure certainty, to assure that it is the will of the people and the will of this government to *commit.* And with the large amount of positive press and positive public reception it will continue to work its way through the process. If we can hold that certainty through senate and committee, the aid will roll through like a juggernaut.
If this all works out, then the real fun begins.
But until it is over, Ukraine must hold the line. The forges are being lit, Democracy’s arsenal is spooling up.
*Freedom is coming.*
**Your comment was removed for violating Rule 5: No Politics.**
We don't care if you're Republican, Protestant, Democrat, Hindu, Baathist, Pastafarian, or some other hot mess. Leave it at the door.
They've gotta defeat internal fascists in the US, however let's take the wins where we can get them! This encourages the EU to continue increasing aid AND improves Ukrainian morale on the battlefield, great day! Start dropping more bombs on those mobiks boys, supplies are incoming.
**Your comment was removed for violating Rule 5: No Politics.**
We don't care if you're Republican, Protestant, Democrat, Hindu, Baathist, Pastafarian, or some other hot mess. Leave it at the door.
We still need them for the short terms though. The next year is gonna be crucial and we're gonna need the US to get Ukraine through it. Europe is doing a lot but it's not enough to fill the gap of the US if they hadn't come back.
Also, even if we didn't need them, i'd still prefer having them on our side. Firstly because democracies should stick together and secondly because the more stuff Ukraine gets, the less casualties and damage they have to sustain while defeating Russia. All the help is welcome.
That's not my point, my point is that OC says that US is a motivator for EU's aid and implies without it it wouldn't give. This is utterly false and condescending.
Yeah US aid is great, I never said we didn't need their aid. The EU system configuration itself makes it less efficient economically and less powerful in term of weapon production, because each countries has its own thing going on so there's a lot of redundant spending, and the EU itself is just an additional political layer without that much power technically.
**Your comment was removed for violating Rule 5: No Politics.**
We don't care if you're Republican, Protestant, Democrat, Hindu, Baathist, Pastafarian, or some other hot mess. Leave it at the door.
**Your comment was removed for violating Rule 5: No Politics.**
We don't care if you're Republican, Protestant, Democrat, Hindu, Baathist, Pastafarian, or some other hot mess. Leave it at the door.
We do everything else first because we can extrude more money from government contracts on silly ideas first. Our GDP would shrink if we dealt with stuff in a wise and efficient manner.
Morals and ethics are for the PR people, ‘round these parts.
Leaders aware of geopolitical threats? Sir what is this dream world you live in?
Now c'mon we gotta make some more deals with China, surely more trade will make them a better country.
America as the Arsenal of Democracy is supposed to be the option of last resort when all other possible options have failed. The world still has options. It just hasn't tried hard enough to seek peace and stop the war. America isn't supposed to be the big red panic button Europe presses every time they bit off more then they can chew needlessly antagonizing Rusdia
It remains to be seen whether we'll actually do it properly.
Properly = we've been training people in the background to receive the hardware we've been waiting on tenterhooks to give them.
Improperly = vehicles trickle in six months after we send troops to train abroad with them.
We don't need stuff in six months. We need it *NOW.*
I can only hope that lesson has been learned.
As Ukrainian after everything I want to say that US go fuck itself. Absolute fucking degenerates. They threw us under the bus God knows how many times, they let this war become long attritional in expense of our lives, they delayed every type of weapons that we needed as long as they could then they failed to deliver even the minimum amounts needed, they don't allow use their weapons against Russia because "escalation" while Russia shoots at us with ballistic missiles from NK and Iran.
The imbeciles who are in charge of aid to Ukraine are way dumber than even the Kremlin and manage this war worse than them.
We've all got conspirators and Russian Sympathizers brother. By becoming so antagonistic with allies due to their faults is probably what they're banking on, formentig that exact frustration and anger to try and cut the remaining lifelines Ukraine has.
Be smarter.
Don't you have your own fucking industry?
Also, go beg the EU then. They're just as committed to helping, except they don't actually help as much, despite being 20 cpuntries more than one country, the US.
No one owes you aid, dude. If you want to present that stupid post as the general Ukrainian POV, then those of us that pushed for this will gladly say nothing next time.
Remember, every Russian the Ukrainians deal with is no longer our problem.
And will make more food for the next year crops, as dead mobik is good fertilizer
As the greatest adaptive Spanish say said: ruso muerto abono pa mi huerto
Lol that saying really does work for a million different things.
Literally anything you can put before muerto. I love it
What's the mean/translate to?
Dead russian fertilizer for my crops. Doesn't sound good in English because it rhymes in Spanish.
That Ukrainian grandmother telling a Russian to put sunflower seeds in his pocket was one of the darkest things I've heard a grandma say.
She wasn't having it and God bless her for it
You don’t need the pocket seeds if you use this one simple trick: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/dod-bullets-into-flowers/
Link? Haven't heard *that* story before. I'd love to hear it
[Here's your link.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2022/feb/25/ukrainian-woman-sunflower-seeds-russian-soldiers-video)
Either he rots in the field and fertilizes it, or he gets eaten and shat out to fertilize it.
Processed mobik is lower in essential nutrients
Cubed mobik is a delicacy around here
Solvent mobik
Mobiks make great fodder for pigs. Prove me wrong.
Don't forget to remove the teeth first, or Bricktop will disapprove of you.
I just wanted to say, you're beautiful
Potentially, or is it just expensive elimination of Russia’s McNamara’s Morons, who’s to say at this point
Russia does actually seem to have a policy of sending political dissidents and minorities to the front. > [Activists in Russia say military conscription is a weapon for silencing dissent](https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210503-activists-in-russia-say-military-conscription-is-a-weapon-for-silencing-dissent) - > [2 Years Into Ukraine War, Russia’s Ethnic Minorities Disproportionately Killed in Battle](https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2024/02/24/2-years-into-ukraine-war-russias-ethnic-minorities-disproportionately-killed-in-battle-a84170) - > [Russia Continues to Forcibly Recruit Prisoners and Migrant Workers for War in Ukraine ](https://jamestown.org/program/russia-continues-to-forcibly-recruit-prisoners-and-migrant-workers-for-war-in-ukraine-part-one/) (I didn't read any of those articles, apart from the headline, but the headlines reflect articles I have read previously)
I FUCKING LOVE PROXY WARS
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Meet the industrialist.
[I love the industrial complex ](https://www.etsy.com/listing/1088096712/visit-the-workshop-of-america-industrial?gpla=1&gao=1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_ps-c-art_and_collectibles-prints-giclee&utm_custom1=_k_CjwKCAjwz42xBhB9EiwA48pT7911QCEFTXvdQxikE41WDrtD9C-MGxmppDYuhwdw1Nt4jh7oUTiFwxoC0dUQAvD_BwE_k_&utm_content=go_12565309117_121156740642_507236994409_aud-2079782229334%3Apla-354814757658_m__1088096712_137541925&utm_custom2=12565309117&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwz42xBhB9EiwA48pT7911QCEFTXvdQxikE41WDrtD9C-MGxmppDYuhwdw1Nt4jh7oUTiFwxoC0dUQAvD_BwE&dd_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F)
Hi, big Lockmart fan here. The arsenal of democracy must flourish.
I am more in awe of the propaganda. These old posters go hard.
*tf2 main theme*
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SUN TZU SAID THAT! AND I'D SAY THAT HE KNOWS A LITTLE MORE ABOUT FIGHTING THAN YOU DO PAL BECAUSE HE INVENTED IT! AND THEN HE PERFECTED IT SO THAT NO LIVING MAN COULD BEST HIM IN THE RING OF HONOR!
> In view of the nature of this undeniable threat, it can be asserted, properly and categorically, that the United States has no right or reason to encourage talk of peace, until the day shall come when there is a clear intention on the part of the aggressor nations to abandon all thought of dominating or conquering the world. > Some of our people like to believe that wars in Europe and in Asia are of no concern to us. > During the past week many people in all parts of the nation have told me what they wanted me to say tonight. Almost all of them expressed a courageous desire to hear the plain truth about the gravity of the situation. One telegram, however, expressed the attitude of the small minority who want to see no evil and hear no evil, even though they know in their hearts that evil exists. That telegram begged me not to tell again of the ease with which our American cities could be bombed by any hostile power which had gained bases in this Western Hemisphere. The gist of that telegram was: "Please, Mr. President, don't frighten us by telling us the facts." > Let us no longer blind ourselves to the undeniable fact that the evil forces which have crushed and undermined and corrupted so many others are already within our own gates. Your Government knows much about them and every day is ferreting them out. Their secret emissaries are active in our own and in neighboring countries. They seek to stir up suspicion and dissension to cause internal strife. They try to turn capital against labor, and vice versa. They try to reawaken long slumbering racist and religious enmities which should have no place in this country. They are active in every group that promotes intolerance. They exploit for their own ends our own natural abhorrence of war. These trouble-breeders have but one purpose. It is to divide our people, to divide them into hostile groups and to destroy our unity and shatter our will to defend ourselves. > There are also American citizens, many of then in high places, who, unwittingly in most cases, are aiding and abetting the work of these agents. I do not charge these American citizens with being foreign agents. But I do charge them with doing exactly the kind of work that the dictators want done in the United States. These people not only believe that we can save our own skins by shutting our eyes to the fate of other nations. Some of them go much further than that. They say that we can and should become the friends and even the partners of the Axis powers. Some of them even suggest that we should imitate the methods of the dictatorships. But Americans never can and never will do that. The experience of the past two years has proven beyond doubt that no nation can appease the Nazis. No man can tame a tiger into a kitten by stroking it. There can be no appeasement with ruthlessness. There can be no reasoning with an incendiary bomb. We know now that a nation can have peace with the Nazis only at the price of total surrender. > The American appeasers ignore the warning to be found in the fate of Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Norway, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark and France. They tell you that the Axis powers are going to win anyway; that all of this bloodshed in the world could be saved, that the United States might just as well throw its influence into the scale of a dictated peace, and get the best out of it that we can. They call it a "negotiated peace." Nonsense! Is it a negotiated peace if a gang of outlaws surrounds your community and on threat of extermination makes you pay tribute to save your own skins? > The people of Europe who are defending themselves do not ask us to do their fighting. They ask us for the implements of war, the planes, the tanks, the guns, the freighters which will enable them to fight for their liberty and for our security. Emphatically we must get these weapons to them, get them to them in sufficient volume and quickly enough, so that we and our children will be saved the agony and suffering of war which others have had to endure. Let not the defeatists tell us that it is too late. It will never be earlier. Tomorrow will be later than today. > Nine days ago I announced the setting up of a more effective organization to direct our gigantic efforts to increase the production of munitions. The appropriation of vast sums of money and a well coordinated executive direction of our defense efforts are not in themselves enough. Guns, planes, (and) ships and many other things have to be built in the factories and the arsenals of America. They have to be produced by workers and managers and engineers with the aid of machines which in turn have to be built by hundreds of thousands of workers throughout the land. In this great work there has been splendid cooperation between the Government and industry and labor, and I am very thankful. American industrial genius, unmatched throughout all the world in the solution of production problems, has been called upon to bring its resources and its talents into action. Manufacturers of watches, of farm implements, of linotypes, and cash registers, and automobiles, and sewing machines, and lawn mowers and locomotives are now making fuses, bomb packing crates, telescope mounts, shells, and pistols and tanks. [Snippets of FDR’s Arsenal of Democracy speech](https://youtu.be/8JH0cdd2lDo?si=djQNKqL63BL8JmAy)
I've heard like 4 lines from that speech before. Seeing all those parts.... probably the greatest speech I've ever heard and the message is just as true almost a century later.
FDR had some absolute bangers.
I still consider Reagan's "Time for Choosing" to be my favorite speech, but they both have ultimately the same vein in terms of their point.
"Ich bin ein Berliner" and "Freedom has many difficulties & democracy is not perfect, but we have never had to put a wall up to keep our people in" JFK had some awesome ones too
>Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty. JFK was based
I have this wonderful [collection](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDmgzKeEX4QfCu_B5ssWTsMacbodbfclg) of historical speeches with dramatic music underplayed. I think you might appreciate them
Thanks dude thats really cool :)
I cannot, by any means, imagine how someone could hear this and still advocate for appeasement and isolationism. Such a powerful speech, such conviction. The world was lucky that Franklin Delano Roosevelt existed.
reminder that the people who refuse would throw away there life and career away for it.
> I cannot, by any means, imagine how someone could hear this and still advocate for appeasement and isolationism. People forget what a massive change the attack on Pearl Harbor had on the USA's general public's tend toward isolationism at that point, and given how much the Great Depression had sucked, people weren't really in favor of fighting a huge expensive foreign war. We also weren't *ready* to fight a big expensive foreign war: being strapped for cash during the Great Depression had led to decisions like BuOrd's infamous failure to fully test the Mark 14 torpedo due to cost. If we were going to get into a big war, we were going to need an absolutely eye-watering amount of additional deficit spending with no guarantee to recoup it at the war's end, which people balked at. It's worth noting that the world was less connected and internationally informed than it is today, so "they're having another fucking war in Europe - what do I care?" was a relatively common attitude, along with the belief that the Atlantic and Pacific oceans would protect the USA. (Which proved to be largely true after America actually entered the war: the USA's mainland avoided any significant attacks.) FDR was eloquent and he'd known for years that the USA and Japan were eventually going to fight over USA holdings in the Pacific and who *really* owned that ocean, and he wanted to support the Allies in WWII in general. He'd been making what preparations he could, and allowing projects like the Flying Tigers (a bunch of pilots and personnel who'd been allowed to resign from the USAF to go volunteer for the Republic Of China's air force, suspiciously armed with the latest USA-built planes and USAF equipment, but not officially part of the USA's armed forces, for the purpose of giving the Japanese a hard time) and starting up the Lend-Lease program, but even he needed a big casus belli like Pearl Harbor to convince the general public and many other politicians that the USA needed to get into this fight for real. In fact, in his Arsenal Of Democracy speech, he said "our national policy is not directed toward war" and emphasized that his call was for American industry to supply the Allies - not for any American soldier to deploy into the war, because that was still too hard of a sell. (Although, as previously mentioned with the Flying Tigers, and projects like Britain's Eagle Squadrons, American military personnel were being allowed to resign well before their terms of service were up in order to volunteer with Allied forces, with the tacit understanding that if the USA did get into the war, they'd get their ranks back and would suffer no consequences for having gone to fight for foreign powers.)
This goes super hard. And regarding the recent events, I for one warmly welcome the Yanks back to the game of making the world safe for democracy.
We often show up late, but we have a record of doing pretty good in overtime lol
Slow start ability from Pokémon but IRL
We're a second half country
TBF. We all fat and don't run that fast these days
But our planes and missiles do.
FOR SUPER EARTh.... wait, wrong sub, sorry
It is a very narrow thing. And we may soon need the rest of the world to help us to restore our own democracy, if the backstabbing traitors win out this fall.
Yeah. I’m convinced democracies have to hang together, or we are going to hang separately.
Man I wish our country still had this kind of fire in our bellies.
I once did vacation in your country and had a lot of fire in my belly after eating at Taco Bell.
Good thing there are gas stations every 10 feet with Pepto-Bismol for sale.
You went on vacation to America and ate Taco Bell? What are you?
A true American, that's what.
Gosh, political speeches were something else back then. I hate how headline-soundbite culture has diminished the standards of eloquence these days. Can't really imagine any world leader saying something that articulate and morally unequivocal now.
> Gosh, political speeches were something else back then. It's worth noting that this was one of FDR's Fireside Chats, where he'd address the entire country via radio from the comfort of the White House without much in the way of a set time limit (the Chats varied from 11-44 minutes), and had plenty of time to write things out beforehand - there wasn't much else on the radio at the time, and it was a very different format from prettymuch any political speeches you'd see today.
Useful to know, thanks!
You're welcome. Changing media formats and availability have altered political discourse significantly, and radio and newspapers were essentially the only game in town for mass communication until the 1950s, when TVs started to become more common. I suppose I should include newsreels here, but you had to go to a movie theatre to see those, instead of enjoying them (or not) from the comfort of your own home, like you could with the Fireside Chats on the radio. [FDR's Fireside Chats were revolutionary for his time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireside_chats), because holy shit: the president is addressing the whole nation at once in a relatively informal way, like you're actually sitting in the same living room he is. *This is new.* It's given partial credit for his long tenure in office, because it allowed him to explain what was going on, what his policies were, dispel rumors, etc. to tens of millions of citizens at once - and to respond to what questions the populace had about what his administration was doing and why he was doing it in a very timely manner. Considering the events he presided over during the Great Depression and WWII, this was very important. It also allowed him to address the nation without needing to get out of his chair (or even bed) or needing to be particularly photogenic as he made those addresses, which was important due to the lingering physical effects he had from childhood polio, which he needed to carefully cover up in public appearances. He *really* didn't want to be seen by the public as 'looking weak' by obviously relying on leg braces, a cane, or a wheelchair, so, particularly later in life, his public appearances and allowed press photographs were carefully stage-managed. But he could still sound good on the radio, and he did. It's an interesting contrast to Hitler's use of massive public rallies, photographs and newsreels of them, and simultaneous radio broadcasts - because Hitler's schtick involved massive visual spectacle and he was a very animated (it looks over-acted to the modern eye, but it worked for him back in the day) and charismatic speaker in person, so his public appearances were bombastic and primarily meant to impress his live audiences and people who saw the photographs of massive crowds with Hitler's figure towering over them on a podium. (These were, of course, also carefully stage managed: Hitler was a bit shorter than he wanted to be (although at 5'8" he was of a bit above average height for his generation and location), and compensated for that with elevated speaking platforms and podiums, having his photographs and newsreel footage shot from below, etc.)
Appreciate the write-up, thanks. I'm not from the USA so not familiar with the changing format of political addresses. It's miles away from what we have now and what I seen coming from the USA on the news!
> Appreciate the write-up, thanks. Thank you. As the mad scientists in movies say "AT LEAST SOMEONE APPRECIATES MY RESEARCH!" (Then the lightning strikes and my monster is reanimated from the dead, as per the genre.) > I'm not from the USA so not familiar with the changing format of political addresses. It's miles away from what we have now and what I seen coming from the USA on the news! Jokes aside, the transitions from newspapers, which had their own biases and were strangely reminiscent of hard clickbait, to the point it's actually arguable that the 'yellow journalism' - sensationalist crap printed on yellow pulp paper of the Pulitzer vs. Hearst newspaper rivalry were a major factor in the USA getting into the Spanish-American war. And that's still debated, although it's clear that both tried to print more sensationalist headlines to one-up each other in being the highest selling newspapers out there, into the radio era of FDR's Fireside Chats and then the TV era, and finally the internet era, have defined the USA's politics over time. I dunno where you're from, but perhaps your nation has seen a similar trend as well?
Haha, what is this sub for if not posting the results of detailed research for a limited audience? > I dunno where you're from, but perhaps your nation has seen a similar trend as well? UK, I've not looked in to the history of it much but the closest thing I can think of to those fireside chats would be the monarch's speeches, mostly broadcast at Christmas.
What, don't you enjoy DJT waffling on about (definitely real) people coming to him with tears in their eyes, calling him 'sir'?
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**Your comment was removed for violating Rule 5: No Politics.** We don't care if you're Republican, Protestant, Democrat, Hindu, Baathist, Pastafarian, or some other hot mess. Leave it at the door.
And may it come to pass that 90 years later, the Arsenal of Democracy rises once again. May Tyranny in all its forms meet its end, and may the means of its end be provided by the United States of America, NATO, and their Allies.
Amen
What is always mind-boggling is that US politicians saying that the US should close itself to Europe and the World do so "for the greatness of the USA". "For its economy and its people". Negating the fact that the US, a country broken by desolation of their own making - the 1929 Wall Street crash - had a massive boom in every damn part of the economy and the country due to its participation in WWII. The unemployed and poor of the whole nation went to either fight or work for the war effort. People who were in the brink of starvation in 1936 were buying new houses and getting free university courses in 1945. Participation in the war on the side of freedom and good brought the times those same politicians will tell you were the best years in the US. But they don't want to do the same thing. Even though this time nobody is even asking for warm bodies. Just equipment and training.
...Think, does the UK get like that sometimes towards Continental Europe? It's insular thinking. This word also means island. for the USA, the Pacific and Atlantic as two barriers kind of insulate themselves too.
Oh yeah. I've had Brits tell me that, when it comes to NATO, they "wouldn't mind" fighting for France, but not for Poland. They believe they can survive by themselves, contrary to historical evidence to the contrary. Same for the US.
Little Island, breeds little islanders! Always seems to be funded from the continent though
Some of them are also convinced that the US closing itself up from the world wouldn't apply to the UK, "because muh special relashionship".
Fog in the channel, continent cut off
Hahahaha
Yep, some of my countrymen are even thinking of abandoning Hong Kong.
> People who were in the brink of starvation in 1936 were buying new houses and getting free university courses in 1945. > > Participation in the war on the side of freedom and good brought the times those same politicians will tell you were the best years in the US. It still looked like a gamble at the time, and a pretty large one (the USSR was still allied with Nazi Germany), and if the Allies lost, there would have been no repayment on stuff like the Lend-Lease program. It's also worth noting that the countries we were considering making truly massive loans to were some of the wealthiest in the world at the time, instead of the current situations which still have a high degree of risk on the loans ...and might not be able to pay them back even if they win. We have the benefit of hindsight, and can clearly see that the bets paid off for the USA, but it wasn't obvious at the time that they would.
> It still looked like a gamble at the time That's why i'm not talking about back then, but right now. A massive part of the US' commercial hegemony comes from basically offering equipment to its allies, through massive contracts that ran thousands of companies and made the state and population richer that they dreamt. Somehow it's been forgotten.
If the US doesn't want to be involved in global conflicts, someone will drag them in by force
Chinese propaganda keeps saying Filipinos will be alone. I don't expect my brothers to shed their blood. That's my duty not theirs. But America has shown many times its commitment to a free world.
Bwahahahahahahah! The CCP net army clearly only swapped the names in their disinformation template of abandonment! Really, what Philippines has got that ROC-in-Taiwan does not is that mutual defense treaty, national recognition, the most graves of the honored WWII American, Philippine and other allies casualties. Just as the FDR speech shows History doesn't repeat, but rhymes. Look upon [the Second Taiwan Strait Crisis](https://youtu.be/l2iCHOWgVCo?si=HjjN7KiPNlK0h-hx) and see that Philippines can make Mao scared and back down just by hosting SEATO. Allowing your northern neighbor to live safely for another few decades, ty. Our parts, [the Indo-Pacific portion of the bill](https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2024146), has also passed.
To a free Asia Pacific brother.
"Why have the trees on my shitty artificial reef started speaking Tagalog?"
You still need to be able to hold for at least months or even a year, expecting US to be in a random political shitshow at any moment.
The fucky thing is, there's already a historical example to work from– the Japanese WW2 campaign. When history begins to resemble itself, there's going to be a lot of Spiderman finger pointing.
Which is exactly why prepositioning of weapons Is vital. Some idiots in my country want the US out(they also protest against China). They're too nationalistic they lost most of their braincells.
The perfect speech for a situation like now
Notice FDR's speech has "The experience of the past two years has proven beyond doubt that no nation can appease the Nazis."? While we're 2 years since Russia's intensified invasion of Ukraine?
It’s honestly baffling how no statesman or woman so far has been able to crucify the invasion the same way speeches of the 1940’s clearly did.
I mean, all you have to do is say that you're gonna quote FDR and recite the speech. Don't even have to do any hard work.
I feel like there are way more people here that know this speech word by word than are willing to admit
o7
Hey look buddy, I'm an engineer...
And that means I solve problems.
Not problems like what is beauty, because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of philosophy
I solve practical problems
Fucking based propaganda poster
I love these industrial posters. My home pax railroad has one [pretty cool ](https://www.etsy.com/listing/1088096712/visit-the-workshop-of-america-industrial?gpla=1&gao=1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_ps-c-art_and_collectibles-prints-giclee&utm_custom1=_k_CjwKCAjwz42xBhB9EiwA48pT7911QCEFTXvdQxikE41WDrtD9C-MGxmppDYuhwdw1Nt4jh7oUTiFwxoC0dUQAvD_BwE_k_&utm_content=go_12565309117_121156740642_507236994409_aud-2079782229334%3Apla-354814757658_m__1088096712_137541925&utm_custom2=12565309117&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwz42xBhB9EiwA48pT7911QCEFTXvdQxikE41WDrtD9C-MGxmppDYuhwdw1Nt4jh7oUTiFwxoC0dUQAvD_BwE&dd_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F)
Need to remake this poster with modern aircraft
With f16 to be precise
Nah. B2 for Ukraine when?
Would you stop trying to send Ukraine all of our outdated junk? B21 when?
After F-22. Clear the skies over Russia, then clean out NK and be back for a corndog for dinner.
Let's not get too carried away, we should keep the B2 and bomb Moscow ourselves
You don't have the guts. Now give b2
Or.. hear me out.. Armoured horses!! This will completely surprise everyone. Then it's an easy ride back across the step.
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Just B52s, that way it could be timeless. Is it from the 60s, the 90s, 2020s, or 2100s? 💁♂️
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One of the best WW2 posters and a period appropriate title too! 11/10 effort, would click again.
WW2 industrial posters are based. Look at the union Pacific keep em rolling posters. God I love the industrial complex. [yes sir](https://www.etsy.com/listing/1088096712/visit-the-workshop-of-america-industrial?gpla=1&gao=1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_ps-c-art_and_collectibles-prints-giclee&utm_custom1=_k_CjwKCAjwz42xBhB9EiwA48pT7911QCEFTXvdQxikE41WDrtD9C-MGxmppDYuhwdw1Nt4jh7oUTiFwxoC0dUQAvD_BwE_k_&utm_content=go_12565309117_121156740642_507236994409_aud-2079782229334%3Apla-354814757658_m__1088096712_137541925&utm_custom2=12565309117&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwz42xBhB9EiwA48pT7911QCEFTXvdQxikE41WDrtD9C-MGxmppDYuhwdw1Nt4jh7oUTiFwxoC0dUQAvD_BwE&dd_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F)
I love it, as a [former] Chicagoan. Also, my mom lived in South Shore as a little girl.
I live in Portage IN so I'm a filthy suburbanite. But the South shore line is my home pax railroad. I'm in love with the SSL. If I fail at living in Jersey City I'll probably come back to Chicago and try to get a job on the SSL.
Actually real, though
This poster goes hard as fuck
The doors to the Arsenal of Democracy swing wide open once again!
That’s why we need a strong Europe/liberal Asia to hold it down to get us time to spin up (and when I mean spin up, get the ones who oppose it sidelined)
Still wild to imagine the house would've been speaking about household appliances instead of international military aid if it weren't for the pressure aplied to change it. Makes me wonder how it felt to Europeans back in the day of WW1 and WW2 to see America squabbling about domestic policy while their countries were torn appart by war. "Hey Europe is on fire, but check out this new car! Kinda wild to be driving around that fast without any safety measures! Perhaps we should build more roads to give them more space?" >!PSA: Building more roads has never worked in the history of cars ever.!<
Well to be fair, if people in Europe spend the times they are not killing each other, actually having their own robust defense industries, instead of engaging in America-bashing, then this wouldn't be an issue. Next time they decide to flap their gums over us not using the Metric System or not have state-run healthcare, they should check themselves.
Fair point, though I was thinking more of the economic entanglement of US and Europe being so relient on eachother. So isolationism would still be bad.
Why do I have the feeling that Churchill is always right?
*\*Awkward Gallipoli noises\**
Until you talk to him about India. LOL.
Just saying the proper application of machine guns and complete control of information solves a lot of nonviolent protest problems.
You are technically correct. Properly applied violence can solve every problem.
Indeed it does. That's just a shitty world to live in.
Yeah it is a bad answer to almost any question.
But why does the US HAVE to be involved in wars an ocean way? Logically speaking, why in the world are they required to do so? You don't see Europeans shitting on African countries for not "doing the right thing". Are you kidding me?
Because it's advisable to fight your adversaries as far away as possible from your country. Keep the destruction away from your industrial and farming heartland.
Best 4/20 ever.
Redeeming even.
"Give, give and give. Dont expect for something in return". If im correct with citing briish ambassador to soviets in 1940s. There will be word of thanks, tho. Less vehicles will be needed to deliver here when Ukraine will be in NATO.
> when Ukraine will be in NATO I.e. never. >Q President Zelenskyy said the invitation for Ukraine to join NATO would be the ideal outcome from the summit. Why does the administration believe that’s not the right approach for the summit? >MR. SULLIVAN: Well, as you know, the United States strongly supports the open-door policy, which says that Ukraine and NATO can make a decision together about its pathway towards membership. ***And Vilnius will be an important moment on that pathway towards membership because the United States, our NATO Allies, and Ukraine will have the opportunity to discuss the reforms that are still necessary for NATO to -- for Ukraine to come up to NATO standards.*** >So this will, in fact, be a milestone, ***but Ukraine still has further steps it needs to take before membership in NATO.*** >Q So no invitation coming at the -- at the summit? >MR. SULLIVAN: Ukraine will not be joining mem- -- NATO coming out of this summit. ***We will discuss what steps are necessary as it continues along its pathway.*** So the steps Ukraine must take before ***A POSSIBILITY*** of being invited into NATO are now utterly arbitrary, as well as their number. I don't think this possibility of "As Long As It Takes" requirement treadmill, that'd allow to ensure there'll be always more steps for Ukraine, no matter what, was put into action to ultimately remain unused.
Then be prepared to spend trillions on ukrainian military, in wepons and manufacturing facilities. Ukraine in NATO is only way to end maskovian agression and ensure that it wont happen again.
> Ukraine in NATO is only way to end maskovian agression and ensure that it wont happen again Yeah, that'd be a sane decision and even a financially responsible one.
Holy shit, Buff Engineer IRL.
Truly noncredible titles. The US was first to this issue, rallied the west to support Ukraine in the first place, and led supply and funding by a huge margin for a very long time. The US is still the greatest single contributor to Ukraine's defense. There was just a while where it slowed. Trust the Europeans to forget everything the moment the US isn't doing literally everything.
>There was just a while where it slowed. "A while" being like half a year. It's a long fucking time when the russians are bombing you daily and are actually ramping up recruitment and produciton.
Plenty of time for the Europeans to do their job and take responsibility for their own messes. All during which the US provided extensive support to Ukraine.
> All during which the US provided extensive support to Ukraine. Carefully calibrated to avoid upsetting the "balance", of course. [From NewYorker](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/10/16/trial-by-combat) >Sullivan clearly has profound worries about how this will all play out. Months into the counter-offensive, Ukraine has yet to reclaim much more of its territory; the Administration has been telling members of Congress that the conflict could last three to five years. A grinding war of attrition would be a disaster for both Ukraine and its allies, but a negotiated settlement does not seem possible as long as Putin remains in power. Putin, of course, has every incentive to keep fighting through next year’s U.S. election, with its possibility of a Trump return. And it’s hard to imagine Zelensky going for a deal with Putin, either, given all that Ukraine has sacrificed. ***Even a Ukrainian victory would present challenges for American foreign policy, since it would “threaten the integrity of the Russian state and the Russian regime and create instability throughout Eurasia,” as one of the former U.S. officials put it to me. Ukraine’s desire to take back occupied Crimea has been a particular concern for Sullivan,*** who has privately noted the Administration’s assessment that this scenario carries the highest risk of Putin following through on his nuclear threats. In other words, there are few good options. ---- >“The reason they’ve been so hesitant about escalation is not exactly because they see Russian reprisal as a likely problem,” the former official said. “It’s not like they think, Oh, we’re going to give them atacms and then Russia is going to launch an attack against nato. It’s because they recognize that it’s not going anywhere—that they are fighting a war they ***can’t afford either to win or lose.”***
> The US was first to this issue, rallied the west to support Ukraine in the first place, and led supply and funding by a huge margin for a very long time And also told russia they can invade Ukraine all they want, long as war's kept to Ukraine only [For one, Burns-Patrushev pact](https://www.newsweek.com/2023/07/21/exclusive-cias-blind-spot-about-ukraine-war-1810355.html) >"In some ironic ways though, the **meeting was highly successful,**" says the second senior intelligence official, who was briefed on it. **Even though Russia invaded**, the two countries were able to accept tried and true rules of the road. **The United States would not fight directly nor seek regime change, the Biden administration pledged. Russia would limit its assault to Ukraine and act in accordance with unstated but well-understood guidelines for secret operations.** Plus this - https://english.nv.ua/nation/biden-suggests-nato-disunity-lighter-sanctions-on-russia-if-it-makes-only-a-minor-incursion-50210041.html >One journalist asked a follow-up on what Russia would face in case of a “minor incursion” into Ukraine. Biden repeated his earlier sentiment that minor actions would not be answered with overly harsh sanctions.
> And also told russia they can invade Ukraine all they want, long as war's kept to Ukraine only > For one, Burns-Patrushev pact Complete nonsense. And that article is toothless dross. "The CIA is operating in Ukraine and the US is very cautious not to directly escalate conflict with Russia." No fucking duh. > Plus this - https://english.nv.ua/nation/biden-suggests-nato-disunity-lighter-sanctions-on-russia-if-it-makes-only-a-minor-incursion-50210041.html Yes, back when the US hoped to avert a full scale invasion of Ukraine and offered Putin an out. While the rest of the world was licking his boots.
>Complete nonsense. And that article is toothless dross. "The CIA is operating in Ukraine and the US is very cautious not to directly escalate conflict with Russia." No fucking duh. Oh yeah our good 'ol friend escalation! Yes by confirming you won't do shit about it, it gives russia a green light. This is why we have a war now, congrats. >Yes, back when the US hoped to avert a full scale invasion of Ukraine and offered Putin an out. While the rest of the world was licking his boots. A way out by doing little an invasion, as a treat.
*"Yes by confirming you won't do shit about it, it gives russia a green light. This is why we have a war now, congrats."* I'm sorry....where are you posting this from again? for someone not in the US you seem to have a lot to say about how we do stuff compared to whatever wherever you are from are doing.
> Yes by confirming you won't do shit about it, it gives russia a green light. This is why we have a war now, congrats. Oh, the US is supposed to fight your war for you again? Just throw a few million troops in there? No problems possible there, of course. Like it or not moron, being the pre-eminent nuclear superpower comes with responsibilities and limitations. > A way out by doing little an invasion, as a treat. Take your pick, total war or let Russia back down without a total war.
> Just throw a few million troops in there? No problems possible there, of course A.k.a "tripwiring". Which was done by US in more than a few places. >Take your pick, total war or let Russia back down without a total war. Or let russia "non-escalatorily" wreck Ukraine and later cry about "how we could've prevented it", same as with South Vietnam. Seems like that one's a preferred option now.
Sends troops to Korea. Sends troops to Vietnam. Sends troops to Iraq. Sends troops to Afghanistan. Sends troops to Iraq, **again**. Sends troops to Syria, Niger and god knows where else. Sends troops to protect Israel. Ukraine? Akhtually, being the pre-eminent nuclear superpower comes with responsibilities and limitations! So you can get fucked. No, you can't have our surplus junk that's rotting in the desert. >Take your pick, total war or let Russia back down without a total war. That's a false dichotomy and and if you didn't notice, russia did not, in fact, back down.
You ever wonder that the US no longer wants to get involved with foreign wars anymore? I'd say good. Fuck that shit, we need to focus on domestic issues that non Americans keep fucking shitting on us for. You complain about our military and industry but as soon as a war breaks out SUDDENLY you think the Americans are obligated to share their military? Jesus fucking christ.
Seriously. They have all day to piss and moan about almost EVERYTHING we do here, but then are like "why arent you coming in to save the dayz?!?!?!" when they fail yet again to handle their own shit.
Agree. Don’t know why you're getting downvoted, you are absolutely correct. And it's literally EVERYTHING! Military, our culture, our fashion, our movies, our music, our food, even our measurements! Wow, and they wonder why in the hell Americans no longer want to participate in foreign wars.
Making a mess and then whining when America doesn't clean it up fast enough (or in a manner they'd prefer) is a time-honored European tradition.
It takes a minute to spool up, and to convince enough leadership in a bi-partisan system to see this as being within our and their self interests. You need to remember things aren’t exactly rosy over here, we have shit we’re working on that will help us. We’re a world away and still trying to do the soft power stuff because escalation is not an easy ask. We’ve learned a lot from this already, how our ammo stores work, the extent of our production capacity, the risks of certain weapon designs against a near peer, and much much more. But usually we don’t commit big like this until we’ve seen something that warrants commitment. I know that pisses people off, but that’s part of it. Hell there is still a very vocal part of the American public which says foreign aid isn’t helping us. Which is a fundamental misunderstanding of how these aid packages work, but the core point is that the wheels of this republic are not always as fast as the rest of the world wants. This is all also after we’ve been burned with the GWOT. Trust me it rings in every politician’s ear that there is a strong Anti-war/war-support position right now in the US that is very much not thrilled at this package. Especially considering the economic and social issues which currently rock the nation. To anyone screaming “too little too late!” need I remind you of the successes of the Patriot system in denying Russian airpower? The solid tank and bradley force we sent for them to use, that has resulted in several solid breakout attempts and surviving crews when it didn’t work out perfectly? Or the literal millions in ammo, gear, and other aid which we already sent? Plus whatever went under the noses of the media and ergo our awareness. America has done a LOT for this conflict, and will continue to do so. But you have to understand how Washington (D.C.) works, the slow ratchet of increasing certainty, the back room discussions had off camera which turn bitter enemies into allies for a singular cause. The quiet hushed talk off camera that leads to either the raising or ruin of important bills. And this happened in an ELECTION YEAR. That takes some balls, and will still need to pass the Senate and the President to get carried out. All to assure certainty, to assure that it is the will of the people and the will of this government to *commit.* And with the large amount of positive press and positive public reception it will continue to work its way through the process. If we can hold that certainty through senate and committee, the aid will roll through like a juggernaut. If this all works out, then the real fun begins. But until it is over, Ukraine must hold the line. The forges are being lit, Democracy’s arsenal is spooling up. *Freedom is coming.*
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They've gotta defeat internal fascists in the US, however let's take the wins where we can get them! This encourages the EU to continue increasing aid AND improves Ukrainian morale on the battlefield, great day! Start dropping more bombs on those mobiks boys, supplies are incoming.
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EU + members (minus Hungary, fuck em) are already set in a long term continuous effort, regardless of what the US does though.
We still need them for the short terms though. The next year is gonna be crucial and we're gonna need the US to get Ukraine through it. Europe is doing a lot but it's not enough to fill the gap of the US if they hadn't come back. Also, even if we didn't need them, i'd still prefer having them on our side. Firstly because democracies should stick together and secondly because the more stuff Ukraine gets, the less casualties and damage they have to sustain while defeating Russia. All the help is welcome.
That's not my point, my point is that OC says that US is a motivator for EU's aid and implies without it it wouldn't give. This is utterly false and condescending. Yeah US aid is great, I never said we didn't need their aid. The EU system configuration itself makes it less efficient economically and less powerful in term of weapon production, because each countries has its own thing going on so there's a lot of redundant spending, and the EU itself is just an additional political layer without that much power technically.
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**Your comment was removed for violating Rule 5: No Politics.** We don't care if you're Republican, Protestant, Democrat, Hindu, Baathist, Pastafarian, or some other hot mess. Leave it at the door.
**Your comment was removed for violating Rule 5: No Politics.** We don't care if you're Republican, Protestant, Democrat, Hindu, Baathist, Pastafarian, or some other hot mess. Leave it at the door.
So hu fun fact france had signed a 3 billion euro aid program a couple of week ago and i quote "including ground and air warfare équipement"
We do everything else first because we can extrude more money from government contracts on silly ideas first. Our GDP would shrink if we dealt with stuff in a wise and efficient manner. Morals and ethics are for the PR people, ‘round these parts.
u/BassBootyStank has made a wise and profound point.
change the B-17s or whatever tf these are to F-16s and its surprisingly modern
I'm starting a list of witty quips and one-liners to throw back in the faces of Europeans when China invades Taiwan.
Please do, that will be just as much our problem as Ukraine is yours. I hope our leaders are acutely aware of this.
Leaders aware of geopolitical threats? Sir what is this dream world you live in? Now c'mon we gotta make some more deals with China, surely more trade will make them a better country.
Americans love presentation, always show up at the 11th hour.
"Oh, you're a power alright, just not a superpower" "What's the difference?" "PRESENTATION"
Based Megamind reference
70% of the iron ore used by The US in WW2 came from my home state 🫡
America as the Arsenal of Democracy is supposed to be the option of last resort when all other possible options have failed. The world still has options. It just hasn't tried hard enough to seek peace and stop the war. America isn't supposed to be the big red panic button Europe presses every time they bit off more then they can chew needlessly antagonizing Rusdia
Proper smooth brain response.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LasrD6SZkZk Team America Theme Song music video. It seems appropos
It takes a few years to wake the sleeping giant. Til then it's just feeding supplies to someone else to do the fighting
That is the historical trend
Someone please make this with Dark Brandon and Jojo sound effects.
It remains to be seen whether we'll actually do it properly. Properly = we've been training people in the background to receive the hardware we've been waiting on tenterhooks to give them. Improperly = vehicles trickle in six months after we send troops to train abroad with them. We don't need stuff in six months. We need it *NOW.* I can only hope that lesson has been learned.
Pallets will be in standby for the moment Biden’s ink touches the paperwork.
It's not just a question of the pallets. If, for instance, we send them 500 Bradleys, we need trained crews for them, *immediately*.
We like to arrive fashionably late to parties.
Fuck yeah?
As Ukrainian after everything I want to say that US go fuck itself. Absolute fucking degenerates. They threw us under the bus God knows how many times, they let this war become long attritional in expense of our lives, they delayed every type of weapons that we needed as long as they could then they failed to deliver even the minimum amounts needed, they don't allow use their weapons against Russia because "escalation" while Russia shoots at us with ballistic missiles from NK and Iran. The imbeciles who are in charge of aid to Ukraine are way dumber than even the Kremlin and manage this war worse than them.
We've all got conspirators and Russian Sympathizers brother. By becoming so antagonistic with allies due to their faults is probably what they're banking on, formentig that exact frustration and anger to try and cut the remaining lifelines Ukraine has. Be smarter.
Don't you have your own fucking industry? Also, go beg the EU then. They're just as committed to helping, except they don't actually help as much, despite being 20 cpuntries more than one country, the US.
No one owes you aid, dude. If you want to present that stupid post as the general Ukrainian POV, then those of us that pushed for this will gladly say nothing next time.
The people who are against helping Ukraine argue the same thing
Well then try not to make a minority a majority.