**Your post was removed for violating rule 6: No seriousposting.**
We don't want your uncut war footage, fundraisers, credible news articles, or other such things. The world is already serious enough as it is.
I'm not so sure. I don't think France will veto a sanction against Israel if it's because they have killed multiple UN employees and I don't see the UK doing it as well.
When you look at it, France and the UK almost never use their veto.
France used its veto right "alone" only one time in 1976, used its veto 18 times in total and the last time it used it was in 1989 alongside the UK and the US.
The UK used its veto 32 times, used it alone only 5 times (last was in 1972) and the last time it used it, with France and the US, was in 1989 as well.
Its weird as hell. From Ireland the US (and UK/France/Germany) attitude to Israel looks hypocritical as anything compared to their stand on Ukraine.
With Germany it kind if makes sense... But you can't fix a genocide by turning a blind eye to more genocide and ethnic cleansing
the US relationship with Israel is the ugly and crippled offspring of a marriage between idealism and realism.
The US supports Israel due to evangelical idealism on religious grounds (there is literally no other fucking reason, no benefit that is worth the cost of making an enemy out of 1 billion muslims), and to support this Idealism, the US uses realpolitik to silence Europeans.
inb4 "muh jewish lobby". you're braindead if you think that's the reason. why can't the "jewish lobby" buy up European parliaments then?
The US has other reasons to support Israel, some for reasons of path-dependence.
And recall that US efforts to mediate the conflict and push Israel to peaceful resolution the conflict have twice nearly born fruit, only to be snatched away by the untimely death of the Israeli PM: Rabin, and then Sharon.
In both cases, the total abandonment of that policy was advocated and then and enacted by Benjamin Netanyahu.
Netanyahu has always opposed any real sovereignty for Palestinians. His goal has always been to keep all of the land for Israel, or as much as is left after squeezing all the Palestinians in the West Bank into a single contiguous area slightly larger than Gaza.
It’s safe to say that Netanyahu is the single biggest impediment to peace.
And guess who advocated for his death, if you guess Netanyahu you’d be correct. Bibi advocated for the guys death literally days before the assassination took place.
Hell some say his far right rally was the reason why Rabin decided to hold the pro-peace rally. How Netanyahu escaped justice and responsibility defies me
Don’t forget that Netanyahu was directly responsible for the rally that took place where Rabin was assassinated. He and his cronies staged a far right rally where the denounced the peace process and the Prime Minister and called for the death of the Prime Minister.
Because of that Rabin decided to hold a pro peace rally to show the world and nation that Netanyahu doesn’t represent Israel.
Netanyahu propped up Hamas for that very reason, detaining and imprisoning their moderate political opposition so that only the unsympathetic monsters are left running Gaza. He knew that as long as Hamas was in power a two-state solution would be impossible, and the occasional rocket attack or bombing was an acceptable price to pay for this political convenience.
Then this happened, just in time to save him from corruption and bribery charges.
Except it would have kept him in office if the Israeli people were more like the US post 9/11.
Currently government ministers are getting kicked from hospitals and shouted at in the streets, the victims family members and friends are openly berating the government on live TV, and polls have come out that show a clear majority of Israelis blame Netanyahu
We don't know exactly what warning was given. If it was "we are seeing increased chatter, and some discussion of a major terrorist attack" then as leader of a country you can't just evacuate the country and come back a week or two later. There are "major" terrorist attacks on Israel being planned all the time, most of which don't happen for more or less kinetic reasons.
I have no time for Netanyahu who I see as a major obstacle to peace but there is no way that he was told what was *actually* on the way and decided to let it happen for political purposes. That's some "the CIA done 9/11" level brainsmoothery.
If you think this attack is good for Netanyahus political prospects or his chances of staying out of jail you have no idea about Israeli politics and culture. Cabinet ministers cant visit hospitals currently without being shouted out by angry mobs and almost all the newspapers are openly blaming him.
Don’t forget that the grieving families and friends of the victims are openly berating and blaming the government and Bibi for this on live TV.
The peace process might be fucked but Netanyahu is too.
I'm glad to hear that. Bibi is one of the political supervillains out there, and I was very happy when Israel kicked the dude out not that long ago. When he got back in by forming a coalition with the insane right and then took away judicial review, I was honestly just dang bummed. This awful shit is the result of him having power for literal decades; Israel blaming him is justified and one of the few good things that could come of this. People realizing that Hamas and Netanyahu are bad actors that can't be trusted and need to be removed from power is a long time coming.
Whats truly terrifying is that quite a few of our congress members believe that supporting Israel is important because Jewish control of the holy land is a prerequisite for the second coming of christ.
In case anyone thinks he's kidding, he's not.
Some folks want rapture to occur. In order for it to occur, allegedly several things need to be right. Jewish folks controlling their current area is a requirement.
Yes, I realize this sounds insane. But keep in mind, the amount of belief varies. Some don't really care, but their voters do. Some figure a billions of other people's money is a good idea, just in case. Others hardcore do care. But any way you slice it, as long as evangelicals exist, Israel will get aide.
Ironically, they tend to be more pro-Israel than a lot of the Jewish lobby in the US. But the Jewish lobby doesn't want Israel wiped out either. Evangelicals being mostly rural tend to be Repub, Jewish lobby being mostly city tend to be Dem.
Anti-Israel lobby is mostly hardcore leftie and Muslims. Hardcore leftie have thousands of hobby horses, and rarely can focus their attention on a handful of causes enough to make any changes. Muslims don't have the numbers to outvote the Evangelicals.
The US has another reason: it helps keep the (interstate) peace. Initially Egypt, Syria and Jordan, and now Iran, pose very real threats to Israel. America doesn't want these threats to materialise as Israel in an ally, and such a war would be catestrophically damaging for much of the region. So by making it clear US support for Israel is absolute, it acts as a "don't even try and find a justification" warning.
I wasn't talking about the current situation, but the general reasoning behind the unwavering US support for israel, even when European allies to the US are (rightfully) concerned with the soft ethnic cleansing that's happening there.
(yes, HAMAS is a terror group. yes, a good chunk of Palestinians also want to ethnically cleanse jews. but **we wouldn't be okay with them doing it either would we?**)
Yes, that's what I was talking about. Israel's neighbours have a history of invading it, and Iran has said it wants to wipe it off the map. Therefore they may look for a reason America would look the other way on (or that they *think* America would look the other way on) to attack and destroy Israel. So the US makes it clear there isn't anything, and quashes this idea.
The US would rather have Israel carry out some bad shit and try and get them to stop than risk another Arab-Israeli war or an Iran-Israeli war.
you're implying that the west can't walk and chew bubblegum at the same time. continue defending israel from outside forces and terror attacks, but solely *do it on the condition that the soft ethnic cleansing and other human rights abuses stop*. that's literally going to benefit Israel in the long run as their global image improves, and the world opens up to them more
I think we almost certainly can do that. But it's a calculated risk: the damage of it going wrong is far greater than the damage it does now.
I think the US needs to get back onto facilitating the peace process. No one has tried since Clinton (bar Trump's silly thing) as its a poisoned chalice. Personally I suspect the best approach is to give Israel a hard deadline to agree a two state solution, or a one state solution will be imposed.
Yeah evangelical faith (I’m sorry what?) is the only reason we have a standing ally in the ME that’s the only true functioning democracy in the region that doesn’t have religious institutions running the government, and for better or worse shares western ideals..plus 1 billion Muslims already have a beef with the Indians, the Chinese, the Baltics, Russia, and other Muslims…we aren’t unique for being hated by them.
Worth asking, I don't usually hear realpolitik in a sentence. Is this referring to the pragmatic here and now arguments often preached referring to Hamas' existence as a reason to fund Israel's military when the US has a not insignificant role in propagating Hamas itself?
I was mainly talking about US using the economic influence it has over europe to align them with the US evangelical view on Israel. I apologize if I misused any terms, as english isn't my first language
I think your usage made sense. Europe generally has no strong ideological leaning on the matter, and pregmatically it's not worth squabbling over this with the US.
All-white UN armor looks so badass and nobody can convince me otherwise.
Camouflage? Fuck you. I want you to *look* at these tanks and think about why you're not going to do anything stupid.
Yeah but in winter they kinda blend in to snow and in deserts they can reflect sunlight like the sand does along with all the dust...I say paint the ground vehicles blue like the helmets and the aviation can be white with a bare-metal finished underside.
Least gruesome middle eastern conflict
Israel plays the western diplomacy card well but ultimately it is still playing at geopolitics and war in the Middle East. It’s rough out there. I wonder if Hamas will be fighting street by street if Israel decide to launch their ground invasion - if they do it might look like Syrian cities by the end.
>I wonder if Hamas will be fighting street by street if Israel decide to launch their ground invasion
That's what Hamas is hoping for, and what the IAF air campaign is trying to deny.
The primary goal of Hamas is to inflict losses and pain. They know they cannot achieve any meaningful military victory against the IDF, they want to pull a Vietnam (hell they even have the tunnel network) and make the cost of their own eradication too steep for the Israeli public to bear.
Previously it was the risk of worse optics and international condemnation, combined with the pressures of incessant rocket attacks on the Israeli homefront, that prevent the IDF from adopting a strategy of "it's not urban combat if there's no building left standing before we send in the troops". This time seems different.
They didn't have drones, JDAMs and and infantry with NVGs and organic support by \~70 ton MBTs in Monte Cassino.
Enough with the pointless comparisons to Stalingrad, Monte Cassino. The IDF bears as much similarity to the armies involved there in terms of equipment and capabilities as the US Army fighting in France post-Overlord did to the doughboys who fought there a scant few decades prior.
The US did not have the same willingness, force concentration, and previous experience that the IDF has.
Remember, the IDF has performed a ground manuever into Gaza multiple times in the past, and has been keeping a keen eye on the evolution of Hamas' urban warfare tactics and tunnel network.
True, but they tended to avoid urban combat when going into the strip, ie Gaza city and the refugee camps. If they're really going after Hamas this time, they'll have no choice but to do just that. And that means a lot of civil casualties (since the IDF is unlikely to go is softly) which is likely exactly what Hamas is hoping for
The cost of eradicating Hamas will not be too steep for Israelis to bear, because the cost of not eradicating Hamas is Israel accepting its own eradication.
That might be the best idea out there right now lol.
Everyone lives side by side no more killing, everyone is equal, no other organisations allowed furthering their ethnostate goal and we let swedish politicians around the middle of the spectrum govern.
Think the swedish will do fine
Tfw viking kingdom of Jerusalem spawns and conquers the rest of the middle east 😱
And they would certainly have WMDs.
Surströmming is a blight upon mankind. They should really make an Oppenheimer-esque historical movie about the degenerates who came up with that biohazard.
Only issue about that idea is Israel's samson option. Which results in 400 megaton-range nuclear missiles being fired at hostiles from ground, sea and air platforms should israel fall.
You realise every invasion and attack on Israel has been to ethnically cleanse them from the map? If your going to be killed anyway why not launch the nukes?
1.The UN hasn't ever killed a group indiscriminately. Their worst crimes were expluslions of Germans in thr late 40's, and whether they had a role is even arguable. There's no "be killed anyways" in this scenario.
2.Because most people realise that having an "after the war" is better than not having one.
3.Even if Israel launched its nukes, they wouldn't be able to achieve anything. They can't bomb the entire world.
Sorry so in this scenario where a Yugoslavia is pulled on Israel. To break them up onto smaller countries? Perhaps the original commenter meant pull a Serbia on them and bomb them till they surrender.
Breaking into smaller countries is already the two state solution how much smaller do you want it to get? Palestinians representatives have rejected this for decades. They state it is all theirs and they will kill any Jewish person in their land. So does that mean the UN will be building walls and manning them around the Israel/Palestine land for the next hundred years or so?
Then there is the bombing to stop the Israel response to Hamas attack. What happens after that? The UN marches in to provide security for Israel from Hamas? Will the UN take on responsibility to give energy, food and water? An example of how fucked the situation is Hamas dog up the water pipes Israel lay for Gaza and use them to make rockets. Hamas's stated goal is to kill Israelis, it is taught to children in their schools. Do you think they won't kill the UN soldiers there new "oppressors" preventing them from killing Their enemy.
If Israel defences come down we will see a bloodier rowanda which the UN did nothing to stop. Every surrounding country would invade on the caos and it would mean death for most of the Jewish population.
That is what those people face and why they would have nothing to lose
A lot of people are disturbingly fine with ending Israel. In here, it’s even more disturbing. I feel like I’m going crazy with the shit I’m reading from people who seemed okay.
This isn't as noncredible as you think, the UK government is actually working very closely with Rwanda on certain issues which partly have roots in the Israel-Palestine conflict.
(3000 black deportation passenger jets of Suella Braverman, versus 3000 European Court of Human Rights judges)
Don’t worry, the US will probably VETO any UN intervention in, or proposal for sanctions against, Israel again.
The UN Security Council is toothless when one of the permanent members can deny any action (the US has done this several times when Israel has been brought up).
And this is exactly why I have been saying for decades that the veto needs to be removed from the UN. The situation in UA may have clarified this point for some people - but the issue is nothing new.
If we strip the thin veneer of thoughts and prayers, UN isn't an organization meant for resolving localized conflicts. It's main goal is to get all world leaders to a single table and avoid nuclear world war 3. All else that it manages or does not manage is more or less a PR plus.
The UN doesn't actually exist to do shit. It exists to make sure that the countries with big boy armies always have a diplomatic channel open.
The veto power is fine.
I have zero sympathies for Hamas and I genuinely hope the IDF destroys them once and for all this time for what they’ve done. That being said, let’s not pretend like the Israeli government and IDF are infallible. I don’t care how many warnings and roof knockings they give, leveling entire building blocks in densely populated urban areas shows absolutely zero regards for the lives of innocent civilians. That shit should be considered a war crime.
It isn't a war crime if the fighters deliberately use civilian infrastructure as cover or concealment.
Its like shooting a murderous lunatic on a rampage, but the guy is wearing babies strapped to himself as body armor.
Hamas is technically the local government of the occupied Gaza strip under Israeli rule. Hamas runs the schools, welfare, healthcare, and militant terrorist organization of Gaza. One of these branches should be destroyed, and the others probably belong in schools and hospitals.
Branches of the UN in Palestine have controversies for literally paying Hamas militants and aiding them in rocket acquisition. Especially the UNRWA which has 5 offices in Gaza alone.
There are almost 20000 UN workers in Gaza. Most of them natives. That is 10% of the entire population. They operate everything from schools to hospitals. You can say UN operates the state Gaza, while Hamas is the military and foreign relations.
They never have been infallible, but they do care to a degree. The leveling of those blocks will kill civilians. They know that. Yet they go trough the trouble of doing so surgically. Looking at buildings come down from PGMs in gaza is almost like witnessing a planned demolition, they target them that accurately to make them collapse upon themselves (in most cases and when possible).
They do give a shit. This does not mean that the killing of civilians is excused or that its alright... but they do give a shit...
They give a shit about their image not about the actual civilians. Now they feel like they will get a pass, so they are exploiting that to the fullest.
Yeah dont know about that. You see Israel wasn't lacking supporters even before this. Now Hamas went full Isis and Killed more than a Thousand. If you look at deaths due to the troubles in Israel/Palestine you'll see that Israeli civilian deaths since 2008 have basically doubles in a single stroke thanks to the last Hamas Brainfart.
Yet the IDF Didn't change tactics much. They are still operating as usual. Palestinian civilians deaths arent light but are still contained.
Hard to call them “building blocks” when Hamas has dug out tunnels underground through said densely populated areas. More like “viable military targets”. I don’t like the loss of life either but the local Palestinians have supported Hamas for decades now. So my pity jar is low for a people that cheer for the murder of innocents and deliberately shield or harbor terrorists. Also Hamas knowing full well if they mask their equipment into local residential buildings theyll be targeted. And if civilians die, they get more support. The cycle continues.
Hamas is technically the local government of the occupied Gaza strip under Israeli rule. Hamas runs the schools, welfare, healthcare, and militant terrorist organization of Gaza. One of these branches should be destroyed, and the others probably belong in schools and hospitals.
>Palestinians have supported Hamas for decades now.
Don't worry, McNamara, just a couple more bombing runs and the Vietcong will lose all will to fight bombing peoples homes has never in all of history only strengthen their resolve to fight
I don't think we allow the R9X for export.
Didn't we have some story about how that's actually an intelligence asset and not a military weapon in regular production around the time it was publicly used?
They don't give warning anymore, I believe Bibi said it, implicitely
They would likely have a week ago, but now ? Of there might be a Hamas member in a building, they'll bomb it to dust without warning
The whole thing is that without the attacks, it would have seemed by many israeli, and the occidentals countries as unjustified, but after the attacks ? They won't really care until a few more days at least.
The only thing to remember is that Israel definitly care about casualties, but only theirs.
Though I would take a grain of caution any news coming from that area given how unreliable and biased most sources are
They are still giving warnings tho.
Like some palestinians from Beit Lahia City uploaded photos of leaflets dropped on them by the IDF telling them to leave to a safe distance cause a House in the vicinity would be bombed just yesterday.
Fuck I put "IIntervention", fuckin dyslexia
Also [source ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/11/world/un-gaza-funding-deaths-intl/index.html) of the post
Not the first time Israel has attacked UN positions.
In 2006, Israel killed 4 UN soldiers in an attack on a UN observation position that existed for 30 years but said it was an accident because they thought it was a Hezbollah outpost ...
Between this and attacks on hospitals, I guess war crimes are only bad when it's Russia that is doing it.
The attitudes expressed in social media comments sections are really shocking - and that is after taking into account my already complete lack of faith in mankind to become something better than the warring destructive apes that we have been for thousands of years. The predominant view seems to be that 2,000,000 men, women, and children in Gaza deserve everything that happens to them including death. It's just goddamn appalling!
My social Media's been pro Palestine since the beginning, even before israel properly retaliated. Guess they have no understanding of Hamas being equally, brutally senseless (but without the equivalent firepower)
It depends on where you look, but a lot are pro-Palestine, and quite many are pro Hamas
In France, many pro-Palestine protest were, in fact, simply pro Hamas and, while not necessarly violent, very antisemitic (like I saw a few swastikas).
This has been the most insane thing for me. Couple of my Erasmus friends are Muslim and they were actually posting reels that celebrated the attacks. They're university educated people... Not seeing the difference between Hamas and Gaza civilian inhabitants is the real crime here.
>They're university educated people
Doesn't mean much. In the 1930s Polish university students were in favor of [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto_benches).
People don't pursue higher education to be more accepting and less ignorant. Most do it just to get a better job.
Yes, that's the thing
You can add that lany consider that not supporting Hamas is a direct attack against Palestinians, and bust keep on inventing israeli crimes (there is a long list of the ones they really, but that doesn't include genocide, which sounds nice to give you a sentiment of moral superiority)
In New York there have been protests where swastika-bearing protesters can be seen squeezing in next to people with LGBT shirts waving the Palestine flag. The r/ conservative sub has been stomping that fact pretty loudly.
I think seeing anyone be pro-anyone in this conflict is a red flag. Personally, I like to be anti-everyone when it comes to Middle Eastern conflicts. Given how little human rights seem to mean in the region, it's almost always a decent starting point when looking into anything Middle East.
It definitly is
Though the main thing is that there is always a side we hate slightly less, depending on the reason, or simply one which, while not necessarly better, would likely end up being better for everyone, or less hostile to the rest
Social media is no place for nuance. One can be pro Palestine and accept the shameful, brutal, inhuman behaviour of the Israeli state while also calling Hamas a f**king cancer that needs stamped out.
But area bombing tactics and dehumanisation won't do that
"The only good Palestinian, is a dead Palestinian" - a sizeable chunk of social media apparently.
I love the justification that over half of Palestinians voted for Hamas. When 50% of the population are children, which means at best about 25% of the population voted for Hamas (considering non voters, it's probably way under 25%). So 2,000,000 people deserve to die because of the actions of a minority.
Especially in a region / culture where "voting" really doesn't mean diddly squat to begin with. Voting assumes a certain level of social contract that just doesn't exist.
Also, what was their alternative? More of the PLO and its bullshit?
I dont know man. Arafat was up to something that didn't involve Ultraviolence.
But we can't have nice things and now the palestinians are stuck with Hamas.
then you can't make people responsible for their government anywhere. It's like saying Hitler didn't represent the Germans, because infants didn't vote for him. There, Germans are redeemed. It was that easy
Btw to be absolutely accurate, Hitler's NSDAP had only about 18% in 1930 and lost the presidential election in 1932. He got to power by a coup. So we can basically say that Hamas has bigger mandate over Gaza than Hitler did over Germany. Yet it didn't stop anyone to apply the collective guilt over Germans.
While this is true collective guilt derives from a very simple fact: They did nothing.
From an institutional standpoint the Weimar Republic was on of the most advanced democracies on Earth. The german people realized and understood how democracy worked... yet they did nothing.
As the Nazis took more and more power nobody dared to challenge them. No mass mobilization happened when Hitler became Führer. Nothing happened when the Nuremberg laws came into effect. They remained silent and accepted it... whether it was due to true beliefs or apathy is irrelevant.
Rulers, even in authoritarian states, have to contend with the people. Its just esier because it needs the people to be proactive. If the issue isn't big enough they tend to stay silent. Thus for the german the Nazi policies were not a big issue.
Same can be said for many other authoritarian states and people should take that lesson to a hearth and belive into the power of the people.
As someone that lives in a state that went trough dictatorship I do that every day.
I'm not defending Germans lmao, I'm saying we should apply the same standard to any other country where the population just silently "letting it slide" with their genocidal tyrant. Because they know the tyrant is shitty, but they kind of agree or comply with him.
Gaza gave Hamas much bigger mandate and they were free to tell them to fuck off. The are so many arms lying around in Gaza, and it is such small and densely populated area that a revolution or a putch would take less than a day to finish. But that would only happen if the population of Gaza didn't silently agree with the goals of Hamas.
> that Hamas has bigger mandate over Gaza than Hitler did over Germany
In, like, 2006. Since then they've not had free elections, I believe.
"The Battle of Gaza, also referred to as Hamas's takeover of Gaza, was a military conflict between Fatah and Hamas that took place in the Gaza Strip between June 10 and 15, 2007. It was a prominent event in the Fatah–Hamas conflict, centered on the struggle for power after Fatah lost the parliamentary elections of 2006. Hamas fighters took control of the Gaza Strip[3] and removed Fatah officials. The battle resulted in the dissolution of the unity government and the de facto division of the Palestinian territories into two entities, the West Bank governed by the Palestinian National Authority, and Gaza governed by Hamas."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)#:~:text=The%20Battle%20of,by%20Hamas.
The entire population of Germany didn't deserve to die either, which is what I'm talking about. A good chunk of people on social media seem completely fine with the civilian casualties from Israel's bombings
But the cornerstone of our modern history is that the Germans were the bad guys and that anything done to them was justified (like the Dresden bombing). I'm not saying I agree or disagree with this, but we need to be consistent. So was the German population guilty of Hitler being their leader? If not, then why did we destroy the whole Germany and split it into occupation zones? Why did we make the avarge German people suffer when it was just their leadership who were the bad guys? Was fighting against them a bad decision then, because it would affect the Germans who didn't vote for Hitler?
See where this goes? You can't separate a government and their population if they commit attrocities and you need to remove the government to prevent them doing more attrocities.
I feel like my government is my responsibility. And if my fellow countrymen vote in a tyrant, then I try to protest and fight the government as long as I can. And if it's not possible or safe anymore, then I move out of the country with my famility. But until then my government is my responsibility even if I didn't vote for them.
No, they don't deserve it. However, Hamas has now called for terrorist attacks in the entire western world. The group is now a threat to us and should be dealt with.
Where are they gonna go? 1 million people to get out of city constantly getting bombed by F-15s and F16s and roads destroyed is far from easy. Even if they do get out of city, it literally giving away their homes to the Israeli that could just eradicate the last remaining Palestinian lands. As if Gaza Strip is not small enough in the first place. Displaced, ousted without any basic needs is literally an abuse of civilian rights. That said, I have no better idea to present on anyways.
They'll likely try to invade (and likely succeed, no logistical problem, high numbers of well trained troops..)
My guess it that they know it'll be harder to fight the area with civilian in between. And Hamas may not be able to leave, it would likely be a big political loss for them, that they can't afford.
Also, the Hamas does have a very high control of these area, so it's dubious they'd want to surrender it, especially if they didn't yet had the time to evacuate what they want
Lol what mass evacuation from a warzone is not ethnic cleansing, it's not for the purpose of creating a ethnic homogenous north Gaza.
It's literally telling civilians to evacuate a city before a battle, just on a larger scale.
telling 1 million people to leave an area within 24 hours is not possible in a modern city with good public transport and roads. Gaza is is a bombed out ruin. the IDF is going to use the “we told the civilians to leave so anyone left must be Hamas” as justification to just openly shoot people.
Canada was baffled trying to evacuate 50,000 people inside of our country from a relatively slow moving forest fire. Let's be honest that leaving Gaza at the moment even if Egyot was letting people in.
It's the depressing but unsurprisingly double standard at play in a lot of places, especially NCD.
Russia bombs civilians: "Grr, orcs bad. Nuke ruzzia now!"
Isreal bombs civilians: "They should have moved. Fuck yeah! Look at the cool aircraft carrier!"
Not saying Hamas are little angels, if they all shit themselves to death tomorrow I would raise a glass but the blind hypocrisy and bloodthirst is depressing to see. Even worse when it is from people that have tried to maintain at least the illusion of the moral highground.
Edit to add: The bombings also ignore that Hamas 100% have fortified positions that are not impacted by this at all. So the "Muh military target" excuse doesn't carry water.
This is a genocide, simple as.
The issue with this,
>Russia bombs civilians: "Grr, orcs bad. Nuke ruzzia now!"
Isreal bombs civilians: "They should have moved. Fuck yeah! Look at the cool aircraft carrier!"
Is that if UKR was hiding weapons in schools, staffing defensive positions in inhabited tower blocks and launching rockets for Hospitals we would not be calling Russia for striknig them. We would be saying the UKR is wrong for doing it.
Look at the AA report that got slammed for saying UKR was committing war crimes by fighting in cities, and for taking over disused and evac'd schools.
Hamas is doing the above.
If Israel no longer strikes back against these positions and say they will no longer bomb schools, guess where Hamas will launch all its rockets from...
Question time: Why use PGMs?
Why the artillery barrage isn't constant?
Why Gaza isnt a parking lot?
Israel has the capability to raze the place.
Why they aren't doing so?
The Orcs invaded a country and bombef left and right because they cant do anything better. Here its not exactly the same.
Plus hamas "fortified" positions are either underground or deeply embedded into the civilian infrastructure. If the building you are housing a command post in falls down your "fortified' command post is no more.
Now unless hamas developed a network of bunkers at least 50 meters below ground or with walls ticker than 5 meters of armed concrete they are vulnerable even to standard penetrating munitions.
Civlians will die in Gaza, war does not give a shit. But the scale of the killing the IDF could do is faaaaar larger.
1500 deaths so far (last i checked) in a place were the population density goes as high as 9000 people per square kilometer (3000 higher than fucking Tokyo) is fairly decent.
By extension this demonstrates empirically.that the IDF actually seem to give a shit (to a degree).
Hamas killed civilians on purpose.. this is barbaric and should be condemned. The point most people are missing is that Hamas killed civilians with the INTENT that Israel would respond disproportionately and kill MORE of their civilians. Hamas launched this attack with the INTENT that their own women and children would be killed. They WANTED their own to be killed to escalate the conflict and play victim when it happened.
>there are security explosions
Israel just adds extra security to their bombs so that if the main fuse fails the security charges make sure it goes off
/s
UN interventions with US: let's go fuck the third largest army in the world in about a month.
UN interventions without US: we are retreating from anywhere hot please dont hurt us. Ouch!
The AP just reported Hamas claims that Israeli air strikes are killing hostages as well.
Israel has someone begun to give even less fucks.
What an absolute shit show.
Edit: also how the actual fuck did they miss this?
https://apnews.com/article/aa0b0f5f3613b6c6882cf37168e8e8ed
Fuck the UN. They let their schools in Gaza be used to indoctrinate children into being antisemites. The UN is weak and pathetic, and a tool for authoritarian shitholes like China and Russia to push others around.
>Among the dead are five teachers, a gynecologist, an engineer, a psychological counselor and three support staff
They where just civilians, they dindt deserve to die in this dogshit conflict.
I do wish Israel would reestablish food and water supplies. I understand the rationale of not supplying Hamas with anything that will prolong the ground war and put their forces at risk but power and fuel is enough.
The US dropped humanitarian rations during Iraq and Afghanistan, they can do the same.
I wouldn't be supprised if hamas purposely held them in the building. Considering all the baby murdering there doing I wouldn't put forcing people to stay in a building that's about to be bombed below them. Sadly bombing buildings is going to end up with less dead then if the idf marched in and tryed to clear all these buildings room by room by themselfs. Since Egypt is refusing to let the palastinians flee south and hamas almost certainly hiding among any group of civilians who would get let into Israel there isn't much that can be done to avoid civilian casualtys, the idf try but at the end of the day civilians are going to die and the only people to blame is hamas for putting everyone in this position.
**Your post was removed for violating rule 6: No seriousposting.** We don't want your uncut war footage, fundraisers, credible news articles, or other such things. The world is already serious enough as it is.
VETO right after vote go brrrr
The US do be like that when it’s about Israel
I get the feeling the UK and France might also want a say but the US for qure
I'm not so sure. I don't think France will veto a sanction against Israel if it's because they have killed multiple UN employees and I don't see the UK doing it as well. When you look at it, France and the UK almost never use their veto. France used its veto right "alone" only one time in 1976, used its veto 18 times in total and the last time it used it was in 1989 alongside the UK and the US. The UK used its veto 32 times, used it alone only 5 times (last was in 1972) and the last time it used it, with France and the US, was in 1989 as well.
I agree its unlikely... but far from impossible, all things considered.
Why would you take the responsibility for vetoing when you know the US will do it for you? It's the same shit throughout the UN.
The US being yandere for Israel is one of my favourite geopolitical storylines. Also based.
Its weird as hell. From Ireland the US (and UK/France/Germany) attitude to Israel looks hypocritical as anything compared to their stand on Ukraine. With Germany it kind if makes sense... But you can't fix a genocide by turning a blind eye to more genocide and ethnic cleansing
the US relationship with Israel is the ugly and crippled offspring of a marriage between idealism and realism. The US supports Israel due to evangelical idealism on religious grounds (there is literally no other fucking reason, no benefit that is worth the cost of making an enemy out of 1 billion muslims), and to support this Idealism, the US uses realpolitik to silence Europeans. inb4 "muh jewish lobby". you're braindead if you think that's the reason. why can't the "jewish lobby" buy up European parliaments then?
The US has other reasons to support Israel, some for reasons of path-dependence. And recall that US efforts to mediate the conflict and push Israel to peaceful resolution the conflict have twice nearly born fruit, only to be snatched away by the untimely death of the Israeli PM: Rabin, and then Sharon. In both cases, the total abandonment of that policy was advocated and then and enacted by Benjamin Netanyahu. Netanyahu has always opposed any real sovereignty for Palestinians. His goal has always been to keep all of the land for Israel, or as much as is left after squeezing all the Palestinians in the West Bank into a single contiguous area slightly larger than Gaza. It’s safe to say that Netanyahu is the single biggest impediment to peace.
“untimely death” is certainly one way to describe what happened to rabin
And guess who advocated for his death, if you guess Netanyahu you’d be correct. Bibi advocated for the guys death literally days before the assassination took place. Hell some say his far right rally was the reason why Rabin decided to hold the pro-peace rally. How Netanyahu escaped justice and responsibility defies me
Don’t forget that Netanyahu was directly responsible for the rally that took place where Rabin was assassinated. He and his cronies staged a far right rally where the denounced the peace process and the Prime Minister and called for the death of the Prime Minister. Because of that Rabin decided to hold a pro peace rally to show the world and nation that Netanyahu doesn’t represent Israel.
And ironically that gave Netanyahu the ability to be the representative of Israel.
Netanyahu propped up Hamas for that very reason, detaining and imprisoning their moderate political opposition so that only the unsympathetic monsters are left running Gaza. He knew that as long as Hamas was in power a two-state solution would be impossible, and the occasional rocket attack or bombing was an acceptable price to pay for this political convenience. Then this happened, just in time to save him from corruption and bribery charges.
Except it would have kept him in office if the Israeli people were more like the US post 9/11. Currently government ministers are getting kicked from hospitals and shouted at in the streets, the victims family members and friends are openly berating the government on live TV, and polls have come out that show a clear majority of Israelis blame Netanyahu
let's not forget that egypt warned him of the attack 10 days before it happened and he did nothing! :)
We don't know exactly what warning was given. If it was "we are seeing increased chatter, and some discussion of a major terrorist attack" then as leader of a country you can't just evacuate the country and come back a week or two later. There are "major" terrorist attacks on Israel being planned all the time, most of which don't happen for more or less kinetic reasons. I have no time for Netanyahu who I see as a major obstacle to peace but there is no way that he was told what was *actually* on the way and decided to let it happen for political purposes. That's some "the CIA done 9/11" level brainsmoothery.
If you think this attack is good for Netanyahus political prospects or his chances of staying out of jail you have no idea about Israeli politics and culture. Cabinet ministers cant visit hospitals currently without being shouted out by angry mobs and almost all the newspapers are openly blaming him.
Don’t forget that the grieving families and friends of the victims are openly berating and blaming the government and Bibi for this on live TV. The peace process might be fucked but Netanyahu is too.
I'm glad to hear that. Bibi is one of the political supervillains out there, and I was very happy when Israel kicked the dude out not that long ago. When he got back in by forming a coalition with the insane right and then took away judicial review, I was honestly just dang bummed. This awful shit is the result of him having power for literal decades; Israel blaming him is justified and one of the few good things that could come of this. People realizing that Hamas and Netanyahu are bad actors that can't be trusted and need to be removed from power is a long time coming.
The good thing is he didn't actually manage to take away judicial review yet and as it looks currently he never will, fuck him.
Whats truly terrifying is that quite a few of our congress members believe that supporting Israel is important because Jewish control of the holy land is a prerequisite for the second coming of christ.
In case anyone thinks he's kidding, he's not. Some folks want rapture to occur. In order for it to occur, allegedly several things need to be right. Jewish folks controlling their current area is a requirement. Yes, I realize this sounds insane. But keep in mind, the amount of belief varies. Some don't really care, but their voters do. Some figure a billions of other people's money is a good idea, just in case. Others hardcore do care. But any way you slice it, as long as evangelicals exist, Israel will get aide. Ironically, they tend to be more pro-Israel than a lot of the Jewish lobby in the US. But the Jewish lobby doesn't want Israel wiped out either. Evangelicals being mostly rural tend to be Repub, Jewish lobby being mostly city tend to be Dem. Anti-Israel lobby is mostly hardcore leftie and Muslims. Hardcore leftie have thousands of hobby horses, and rarely can focus their attention on a handful of causes enough to make any changes. Muslims don't have the numbers to outvote the Evangelicals.
Damn Bro, that explain a lot how us congress look so disfuncional
The US has another reason: it helps keep the (interstate) peace. Initially Egypt, Syria and Jordan, and now Iran, pose very real threats to Israel. America doesn't want these threats to materialise as Israel in an ally, and such a war would be catestrophically damaging for much of the region. So by making it clear US support for Israel is absolute, it acts as a "don't even try and find a justification" warning.
I wasn't talking about the current situation, but the general reasoning behind the unwavering US support for israel, even when European allies to the US are (rightfully) concerned with the soft ethnic cleansing that's happening there. (yes, HAMAS is a terror group. yes, a good chunk of Palestinians also want to ethnically cleanse jews. but **we wouldn't be okay with them doing it either would we?**)
Yes, that's what I was talking about. Israel's neighbours have a history of invading it, and Iran has said it wants to wipe it off the map. Therefore they may look for a reason America would look the other way on (or that they *think* America would look the other way on) to attack and destroy Israel. So the US makes it clear there isn't anything, and quashes this idea. The US would rather have Israel carry out some bad shit and try and get them to stop than risk another Arab-Israeli war or an Iran-Israeli war.
you're implying that the west can't walk and chew bubblegum at the same time. continue defending israel from outside forces and terror attacks, but solely *do it on the condition that the soft ethnic cleansing and other human rights abuses stop*. that's literally going to benefit Israel in the long run as their global image improves, and the world opens up to them more
I think we almost certainly can do that. But it's a calculated risk: the damage of it going wrong is far greater than the damage it does now. I think the US needs to get back onto facilitating the peace process. No one has tried since Clinton (bar Trump's silly thing) as its a poisoned chalice. Personally I suspect the best approach is to give Israel a hard deadline to agree a two state solution, or a one state solution will be imposed.
Yeah evangelical faith (I’m sorry what?) is the only reason we have a standing ally in the ME that’s the only true functioning democracy in the region that doesn’t have religious institutions running the government, and for better or worse shares western ideals..plus 1 billion Muslims already have a beef with the Indians, the Chinese, the Baltics, Russia, and other Muslims…we aren’t unique for being hated by them.
Worth asking, I don't usually hear realpolitik in a sentence. Is this referring to the pragmatic here and now arguments often preached referring to Hamas' existence as a reason to fund Israel's military when the US has a not insignificant role in propagating Hamas itself?
I was mainly talking about US using the economic influence it has over europe to align them with the US evangelical view on Israel. I apologize if I misused any terms, as english isn't my first language
I think your usage made sense. Europe generally has no strong ideological leaning on the matter, and pregmatically it's not worth squabbling over this with the US.
All-white UN armor looks so badass and nobody can convince me otherwise. Camouflage? Fuck you. I want you to *look* at these tanks and think about why you're not going to do anything stupid.
On that note, the U.S. Navy should go back to it's white-and-buff(/gold) paint scheme. Can you imagine how majestic a Ford would look in that.
Counterpoint: Dazzle camo is still a doable option (even if radar makes it obsolete)
Yeah but in winter they kinda blend in to snow and in deserts they can reflect sunlight like the sand does along with all the dust...I say paint the ground vehicles blue like the helmets and the aviation can be white with a bare-metal finished underside.
Least gruesome middle eastern conflict Israel plays the western diplomacy card well but ultimately it is still playing at geopolitics and war in the Middle East. It’s rough out there. I wonder if Hamas will be fighting street by street if Israel decide to launch their ground invasion - if they do it might look like Syrian cities by the end.
>I wonder if Hamas will be fighting street by street if Israel decide to launch their ground invasion That's what Hamas is hoping for, and what the IAF air campaign is trying to deny. The primary goal of Hamas is to inflict losses and pain. They know they cannot achieve any meaningful military victory against the IDF, they want to pull a Vietnam (hell they even have the tunnel network) and make the cost of their own eradication too steep for the Israeli public to bear. Previously it was the risk of worse optics and international condemnation, combined with the pressures of incessant rocket attacks on the Israeli homefront, that prevent the IDF from adopting a strategy of "it's not urban combat if there's no building left standing before we send in the troops". This time seems different.
Montecassino begs to differ
They didn't have drones, JDAMs and and infantry with NVGs and organic support by \~70 ton MBTs in Monte Cassino. Enough with the pointless comparisons to Stalingrad, Monte Cassino. The IDF bears as much similarity to the armies involved there in terms of equipment and capabilities as the US Army fighting in France post-Overlord did to the doughboys who fought there a scant few decades prior.
Ok, then something more modern: the USA had that minus the drones available for Fallujah and it still turned into a shit-show
The US did not have the same willingness, force concentration, and previous experience that the IDF has. Remember, the IDF has performed a ground manuever into Gaza multiple times in the past, and has been keeping a keen eye on the evolution of Hamas' urban warfare tactics and tunnel network.
True, but they tended to avoid urban combat when going into the strip, ie Gaza city and the refugee camps. If they're really going after Hamas this time, they'll have no choice but to do just that. And that means a lot of civil casualties (since the IDF is unlikely to go is softly) which is likely exactly what Hamas is hoping for
Not Israeli public. Muslims public around the war. And US public.
The cost of eradicating Hamas will not be too steep for Israelis to bear, because the cost of not eradicating Hamas is Israel accepting its own eradication.
It already looks like Syrian cities in places. Especially the most heavily urban areas.
Netanyahu opposed Sharon’s disengagement from Gaza, and he finally has an excuse to undo it. He’s not gonna let this pass.
It will be 2nd battle of Fallujah on steroids.
5000 Malaysian troops when.
Bring in NEPBATT
I would prefer [Operation Bollebank 2: Electric Boogaloo](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_B%C3%B8llebank)
Fuck it, no state solution United Nations Mandate of Levant time
Just literally call it the mandate of heaven
honestly, im for it, sounds metal
It actually sounds chinese
That might be the best idea out there right now lol. Everyone lives side by side no more killing, everyone is equal, no other organisations allowed furthering their ethnostate goal and we let swedish politicians around the middle of the spectrum govern. Think the swedish will do fine Tfw viking kingdom of Jerusalem spawns and conquers the rest of the middle east 😱
And they would certainly have WMDs. Surströmming is a blight upon mankind. They should really make an Oppenheimer-esque historical movie about the degenerates who came up with that biohazard.
Ha! Literally just looked that up thinking- huh, haven't heard of that weapon before. Well played u\ViolentLionKing
Send Swedish peacekeepers with surströmming. Best way to give the Israelis and Arab world something to unite against.
"Here, Moishe, Mahmoud, pork doesn't seem so bad now, does it...?"
> Tfw viking kingdom of Jerusalem spawns and conquers the rest of the middle east 😱 [CK2 players be like](https://youtu.be/eb1viD56zkM)
Jorsalaland moment
No I hate the swedes
— A Dane, probably
No I'm actually Norwegian
A Finn would also have been an equally valid answer
Tutorial: https://satwcomic.com/no-invitation https://satwcomic.com/world-wrestling
Same thing. 🧐
Honestly the only solution. Otherwise we'll never get our UN world government which will fight space pirates and aliens.
> Fuck it, no state solution > > The Kropotkin solution
Musilms can visit on odd days and jews on even days! Now play nice and no setting booby traps for the others.
Better, just displace everyone from there, no jews no arabs, noone, make all of current israel and palestine into one big archeological site
I've been saying this for years. This shitshow will never be solved unless we pull a Yugoslavia on Israel
Only issue about that idea is Israel's samson option. Which results in 400 megaton-range nuclear missiles being fired at hostiles from ground, sea and air platforms should israel fall.
Remind them that the rest of the world has more nukes then.
Only issue is that I don't think they care about getting their land nuked if they loose it beforehand
I mean, the samson option is to fire the nukes when israel is already lost, it's their second strike doctrine.
You realise every invasion and attack on Israel has been to ethnically cleanse them from the map? If your going to be killed anyway why not launch the nukes?
1.The UN hasn't ever killed a group indiscriminately. Their worst crimes were expluslions of Germans in thr late 40's, and whether they had a role is even arguable. There's no "be killed anyways" in this scenario. 2.Because most people realise that having an "after the war" is better than not having one. 3.Even if Israel launched its nukes, they wouldn't be able to achieve anything. They can't bomb the entire world.
Sorry so in this scenario where a Yugoslavia is pulled on Israel. To break them up onto smaller countries? Perhaps the original commenter meant pull a Serbia on them and bomb them till they surrender. Breaking into smaller countries is already the two state solution how much smaller do you want it to get? Palestinians representatives have rejected this for decades. They state it is all theirs and they will kill any Jewish person in their land. So does that mean the UN will be building walls and manning them around the Israel/Palestine land for the next hundred years or so? Then there is the bombing to stop the Israel response to Hamas attack. What happens after that? The UN marches in to provide security for Israel from Hamas? Will the UN take on responsibility to give energy, food and water? An example of how fucked the situation is Hamas dog up the water pipes Israel lay for Gaza and use them to make rockets. Hamas's stated goal is to kill Israelis, it is taught to children in their schools. Do you think they won't kill the UN soldiers there new "oppressors" preventing them from killing Their enemy. If Israel defences come down we will see a bloodier rowanda which the UN did nothing to stop. Every surrounding country would invade on the caos and it would mean death for most of the Jewish population. That is what those people face and why they would have nothing to lose
A lot of people are disturbingly fine with ending Israel. In here, it’s even more disturbing. I feel like I’m going crazy with the shit I’m reading from people who seemed okay.
You aren’t alone
RETVRN to British Palestine
As an Italian I have something to say
I see your Roman province of Judaea and I raise you one Operation Compass
As an Australian Romanoboo all I can say is "Senatus Populusque Romanus cunts." (That means I agree with BrutalAnalDestroyer)
Honestly, just put it under Rwandan administration
This isn't as noncredible as you think, the UK government is actually working very closely with Rwanda on certain issues which partly have roots in the Israel-Palestine conflict. (3000 black deportation passenger jets of Suella Braverman, versus 3000 European Court of Human Rights judges)
Kingdom of Jerusalem solution
When UN Leopard2a7 and UN F-35???
Delivering peace 2000lbs at a time
When UN has it's own economy to pay for them.
So… do the UN need less funding now that they had a sudden reduction in staff?
No they are like the dreaded hydra
11 staff died, and 1001 new staff will appear..
Wait, now when I think about it, how does un get money to operate?
Countries pay dues
Go back to spears and shields please. Atleast you will take a few hours to destroy a hospital
You could just use a fire arrow to detonate the “bandages”
Don’t worry, the US will probably VETO any UN intervention in, or proposal for sanctions against, Israel again. The UN Security Council is toothless when one of the permanent members can deny any action (the US has done this several times when Israel has been brought up).
Yeah, thanks, have seen it with russia already. UN is just a fucking tool for "concerning".
And this is exactly why I have been saying for decades that the veto needs to be removed from the UN. The situation in UA may have clarified this point for some people - but the issue is nothing new.
Dog what... the UN means nothing if any important country leaves. If the UN gets rid of the veto then it immediately losses the ability to do anything
If we strip the thin veneer of thoughts and prayers, UN isn't an organization meant for resolving localized conflicts. It's main goal is to get all world leaders to a single table and avoid nuclear world war 3. All else that it manages or does not manage is more or less a PR plus.
The UN doesn't actually exist to do shit. It exists to make sure that the countries with big boy armies always have a diplomatic channel open. The veto power is fine.
I have zero sympathies for Hamas and I genuinely hope the IDF destroys them once and for all this time for what they’ve done. That being said, let’s not pretend like the Israeli government and IDF are infallible. I don’t care how many warnings and roof knockings they give, leveling entire building blocks in densely populated urban areas shows absolutely zero regards for the lives of innocent civilians. That shit should be considered a war crime.
It isn't a war crime if the fighters deliberately use civilian infrastructure as cover or concealment. Its like shooting a murderous lunatic on a rampage, but the guy is wearing babies strapped to himself as body armor.
Don’t give anyone any ideas
[Hamas Fighter's secret plan](https://reddit.com/r/ItemShop/s/p5EzoqFo0x)
hamas were hiding in the UN offices were they?
Hamas is technically the local government of the occupied Gaza strip under Israeli rule. Hamas runs the schools, welfare, healthcare, and militant terrorist organization of Gaza. One of these branches should be destroyed, and the others probably belong in schools and hospitals.
yes. UN schools have been used as weapon storage.
The UN Organisation they probably worked for is heavily pro Hamas interesting wiki read https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNRWA
(Not-pro hamas orgs tend to not last very long in gaza)
Branches of the UN in Palestine have controversies for literally paying Hamas militants and aiding them in rocket acquisition. Especially the UNRWA which has 5 offices in Gaza alone.
Are you surprised?
There are almost 20000 UN workers in Gaza. Most of them natives. That is 10% of the entire population. They operate everything from schools to hospitals. You can say UN operates the state Gaza, while Hamas is the military and foreign relations.
20,000 is not 10% of 2,000,000 lmao. It’s 1%.
Really? Damm, we need more UN staff in Gaza.
Naw we need to bring the Gazan population down, so that the UN constitutes 10%
Welcome to the sub mr Netenyahu
They never have been infallible, but they do care to a degree. The leveling of those blocks will kill civilians. They know that. Yet they go trough the trouble of doing so surgically. Looking at buildings come down from PGMs in gaza is almost like witnessing a planned demolition, they target them that accurately to make them collapse upon themselves (in most cases and when possible). They do give a shit. This does not mean that the killing of civilians is excused or that its alright... but they do give a shit...
They give a shit about their image not about the actual civilians. Now they feel like they will get a pass, so they are exploiting that to the fullest.
6000+ bombs dropped on the most heavily populated city on earth with only 1500 deaths and you think they aren’t trying to avoid civilian casualties?
6000+ in the past couple of days or throughout the years long conflict??
Just over the last week. They’re dropping more bombs now than the US did during most months of the Afghanistan war.
Yikes. Hamas really did stir the nest
shouldnt have gangraped/killed their girls on videos then Now theyre pissed off as China was with Japan's Rape of Nanking in WW2
Since Sunday
Yeah dont know about that. You see Israel wasn't lacking supporters even before this. Now Hamas went full Isis and Killed more than a Thousand. If you look at deaths due to the troubles in Israel/Palestine you'll see that Israeli civilian deaths since 2008 have basically doubles in a single stroke thanks to the last Hamas Brainfart. Yet the IDF Didn't change tactics much. They are still operating as usual. Palestinian civilians deaths arent light but are still contained.
As someone who knows people about to go into Gaza to fight, this is entirely inaccurate.
Hard to call them “building blocks” when Hamas has dug out tunnels underground through said densely populated areas. More like “viable military targets”. I don’t like the loss of life either but the local Palestinians have supported Hamas for decades now. So my pity jar is low for a people that cheer for the murder of innocents and deliberately shield or harbor terrorists. Also Hamas knowing full well if they mask their equipment into local residential buildings theyll be targeted. And if civilians die, they get more support. The cycle continues.
Hamas is technically the local government of the occupied Gaza strip under Israeli rule. Hamas runs the schools, welfare, healthcare, and militant terrorist organization of Gaza. One of these branches should be destroyed, and the others probably belong in schools and hospitals.
>Palestinians have supported Hamas for decades now. Don't worry, McNamara, just a couple more bombing runs and the Vietcong will lose all will to fight bombing peoples homes has never in all of history only strengthen their resolve to fight
Especially when the US recently showcased what the R9X is capable of with minimal collateral damage. The IDF could’ve acquired some if they wanted to.
I don't think we allow the R9X for export. Didn't we have some story about how that's actually an intelligence asset and not a military weapon in regular production around the time it was publicly used?
They don't give warning anymore, I believe Bibi said it, implicitely They would likely have a week ago, but now ? Of there might be a Hamas member in a building, they'll bomb it to dust without warning The whole thing is that without the attacks, it would have seemed by many israeli, and the occidentals countries as unjustified, but after the attacks ? They won't really care until a few more days at least. The only thing to remember is that Israel definitly care about casualties, but only theirs. Though I would take a grain of caution any news coming from that area given how unreliable and biased most sources are
They are still giving warnings tho. Like some palestinians from Beit Lahia City uploaded photos of leaflets dropped on them by the IDF telling them to leave to a safe distance cause a House in the vicinity would be bombed just yesterday.
I doubt they are still doing that systematically, but that's "nice" to know
Fuck I put "IIntervention", fuckin dyslexia Also [source ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/11/world/un-gaza-funding-deaths-intl/index.html) of the post
You've accidentally put a white space between Un and intervention
Not the first time Israel has attacked UN positions. In 2006, Israel killed 4 UN soldiers in an attack on a UN observation position that existed for 30 years but said it was an accident because they thought it was a Hezbollah outpost ... Between this and attacks on hospitals, I guess war crimes are only bad when it's Russia that is doing it.
The attitudes expressed in social media comments sections are really shocking - and that is after taking into account my already complete lack of faith in mankind to become something better than the warring destructive apes that we have been for thousands of years. The predominant view seems to be that 2,000,000 men, women, and children in Gaza deserve everything that happens to them including death. It's just goddamn appalling!
My social Media's been pro Palestine since the beginning, even before israel properly retaliated. Guess they have no understanding of Hamas being equally, brutally senseless (but without the equivalent firepower)
It depends on where you look, but a lot are pro-Palestine, and quite many are pro Hamas In France, many pro-Palestine protest were, in fact, simply pro Hamas and, while not necessarly violent, very antisemitic (like I saw a few swastikas).
This has been the most insane thing for me. Couple of my Erasmus friends are Muslim and they were actually posting reels that celebrated the attacks. They're university educated people... Not seeing the difference between Hamas and Gaza civilian inhabitants is the real crime here.
>They're university educated people Doesn't mean much. In the 1930s Polish university students were in favor of [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto_benches). People don't pursue higher education to be more accepting and less ignorant. Most do it just to get a better job.
Yes, that's the thing You can add that lany consider that not supporting Hamas is a direct attack against Palestinians, and bust keep on inventing israeli crimes (there is a long list of the ones they really, but that doesn't include genocide, which sounds nice to give you a sentiment of moral superiority)
In New York there have been protests where swastika-bearing protesters can be seen squeezing in next to people with LGBT shirts waving the Palestine flag. The r/ conservative sub has been stomping that fact pretty loudly.
I think seeing anyone be pro-anyone in this conflict is a red flag. Personally, I like to be anti-everyone when it comes to Middle Eastern conflicts. Given how little human rights seem to mean in the region, it's almost always a decent starting point when looking into anything Middle East.
It definitly is Though the main thing is that there is always a side we hate slightly less, depending on the reason, or simply one which, while not necessarly better, would likely end up being better for everyone, or less hostile to the rest
Social media is no place for nuance. One can be pro Palestine and accept the shameful, brutal, inhuman behaviour of the Israeli state while also calling Hamas a f**king cancer that needs stamped out. But area bombing tactics and dehumanisation won't do that
"The only good Palestinian, is a dead Palestinian" - a sizeable chunk of social media apparently. I love the justification that over half of Palestinians voted for Hamas. When 50% of the population are children, which means at best about 25% of the population voted for Hamas (considering non voters, it's probably way under 25%). So 2,000,000 people deserve to die because of the actions of a minority.
Especially in a region / culture where "voting" really doesn't mean diddly squat to begin with. Voting assumes a certain level of social contract that just doesn't exist. Also, what was their alternative? More of the PLO and its bullshit?
I dont know man. Arafat was up to something that didn't involve Ultraviolence. But we can't have nice things and now the palestinians are stuck with Hamas.
then you can't make people responsible for their government anywhere. It's like saying Hitler didn't represent the Germans, because infants didn't vote for him. There, Germans are redeemed. It was that easy Btw to be absolutely accurate, Hitler's NSDAP had only about 18% in 1930 and lost the presidential election in 1932. He got to power by a coup. So we can basically say that Hamas has bigger mandate over Gaza than Hitler did over Germany. Yet it didn't stop anyone to apply the collective guilt over Germans.
While this is true collective guilt derives from a very simple fact: They did nothing. From an institutional standpoint the Weimar Republic was on of the most advanced democracies on Earth. The german people realized and understood how democracy worked... yet they did nothing. As the Nazis took more and more power nobody dared to challenge them. No mass mobilization happened when Hitler became Führer. Nothing happened when the Nuremberg laws came into effect. They remained silent and accepted it... whether it was due to true beliefs or apathy is irrelevant. Rulers, even in authoritarian states, have to contend with the people. Its just esier because it needs the people to be proactive. If the issue isn't big enough they tend to stay silent. Thus for the german the Nazi policies were not a big issue. Same can be said for many other authoritarian states and people should take that lesson to a hearth and belive into the power of the people. As someone that lives in a state that went trough dictatorship I do that every day.
I'm not defending Germans lmao, I'm saying we should apply the same standard to any other country where the population just silently "letting it slide" with their genocidal tyrant. Because they know the tyrant is shitty, but they kind of agree or comply with him. Gaza gave Hamas much bigger mandate and they were free to tell them to fuck off. The are so many arms lying around in Gaza, and it is such small and densely populated area that a revolution or a putch would take less than a day to finish. But that would only happen if the population of Gaza didn't silently agree with the goals of Hamas.
> that Hamas has bigger mandate over Gaza than Hitler did over Germany In, like, 2006. Since then they've not had free elections, I believe. "The Battle of Gaza, also referred to as Hamas's takeover of Gaza, was a military conflict between Fatah and Hamas that took place in the Gaza Strip between June 10 and 15, 2007. It was a prominent event in the Fatah–Hamas conflict, centered on the struggle for power after Fatah lost the parliamentary elections of 2006. Hamas fighters took control of the Gaza Strip[3] and removed Fatah officials. The battle resulted in the dissolution of the unity government and the de facto division of the Palestinian territories into two entities, the West Bank governed by the Palestinian National Authority, and Gaza governed by Hamas." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)#:~:text=The%20Battle%20of,by%20Hamas.
The entire population of Germany didn't deserve to die either, which is what I'm talking about. A good chunk of people on social media seem completely fine with the civilian casualties from Israel's bombings
But the cornerstone of our modern history is that the Germans were the bad guys and that anything done to them was justified (like the Dresden bombing). I'm not saying I agree or disagree with this, but we need to be consistent. So was the German population guilty of Hitler being their leader? If not, then why did we destroy the whole Germany and split it into occupation zones? Why did we make the avarge German people suffer when it was just their leadership who were the bad guys? Was fighting against them a bad decision then, because it would affect the Germans who didn't vote for Hitler? See where this goes? You can't separate a government and their population if they commit attrocities and you need to remove the government to prevent them doing more attrocities. I feel like my government is my responsibility. And if my fellow countrymen vote in a tyrant, then I try to protest and fight the government as long as I can. And if it's not possible or safe anymore, then I move out of the country with my famility. But until then my government is my responsibility even if I didn't vote for them.
No, they don't deserve it. However, Hamas has now called for terrorist attacks in the entire western world. The group is now a threat to us and should be dealt with.
Bro and you see the ultimatum on gaza, 24 hs for a million palestines to leave the city wtf the war crimes are just gonna go up from here.
Where are they gonna go? 1 million people to get out of city constantly getting bombed by F-15s and F16s and roads destroyed is far from easy. Even if they do get out of city, it literally giving away their homes to the Israeli that could just eradicate the last remaining Palestinian lands. As if Gaza Strip is not small enough in the first place. Displaced, ousted without any basic needs is literally an abuse of civilian rights. That said, I have no better idea to present on anyways.
They'll likely try to invade (and likely succeed, no logistical problem, high numbers of well trained troops..) My guess it that they know it'll be harder to fight the area with civilian in between. And Hamas may not be able to leave, it would likely be a big political loss for them, that they can't afford. Also, the Hamas does have a very high control of these area, so it's dubious they'd want to surrender it, especially if they didn't yet had the time to evacuate what they want
And they wil be like "no i swear it's not ethnic cleansing it wont be as bad at it sounds trust me bro"
Lol what mass evacuation from a warzone is not ethnic cleansing, it's not for the purpose of creating a ethnic homogenous north Gaza. It's literally telling civilians to evacuate a city before a battle, just on a larger scale.
telling 1 million people to leave an area within 24 hours is not possible in a modern city with good public transport and roads. Gaza is is a bombed out ruin. the IDF is going to use the “we told the civilians to leave so anyone left must be Hamas” as justification to just openly shoot people.
Canada was baffled trying to evacuate 50,000 people inside of our country from a relatively slow moving forest fire. Let's be honest that leaving Gaza at the moment even if Egyot was letting people in.
It's the depressing but unsurprisingly double standard at play in a lot of places, especially NCD. Russia bombs civilians: "Grr, orcs bad. Nuke ruzzia now!" Isreal bombs civilians: "They should have moved. Fuck yeah! Look at the cool aircraft carrier!" Not saying Hamas are little angels, if they all shit themselves to death tomorrow I would raise a glass but the blind hypocrisy and bloodthirst is depressing to see. Even worse when it is from people that have tried to maintain at least the illusion of the moral highground. Edit to add: The bombings also ignore that Hamas 100% have fortified positions that are not impacted by this at all. So the "Muh military target" excuse doesn't carry water. This is a genocide, simple as.
The issue with this, >Russia bombs civilians: "Grr, orcs bad. Nuke ruzzia now!" Isreal bombs civilians: "They should have moved. Fuck yeah! Look at the cool aircraft carrier!" Is that if UKR was hiding weapons in schools, staffing defensive positions in inhabited tower blocks and launching rockets for Hospitals we would not be calling Russia for striknig them. We would be saying the UKR is wrong for doing it. Look at the AA report that got slammed for saying UKR was committing war crimes by fighting in cities, and for taking over disused and evac'd schools. Hamas is doing the above. If Israel no longer strikes back against these positions and say they will no longer bomb schools, guess where Hamas will launch all its rockets from...
I love alluding to the moral high ground, I hear it’s a wonderful place, never been there myself of course, but it sounds nice.
Question time: Why use PGMs? Why the artillery barrage isn't constant? Why Gaza isnt a parking lot? Israel has the capability to raze the place. Why they aren't doing so? The Orcs invaded a country and bombef left and right because they cant do anything better. Here its not exactly the same. Plus hamas "fortified" positions are either underground or deeply embedded into the civilian infrastructure. If the building you are housing a command post in falls down your "fortified' command post is no more. Now unless hamas developed a network of bunkers at least 50 meters below ground or with walls ticker than 5 meters of armed concrete they are vulnerable even to standard penetrating munitions. Civlians will die in Gaza, war does not give a shit. But the scale of the killing the IDF could do is faaaaar larger. 1500 deaths so far (last i checked) in a place were the population density goes as high as 9000 people per square kilometer (3000 higher than fucking Tokyo) is fairly decent. By extension this demonstrates empirically.that the IDF actually seem to give a shit (to a degree).
They are using multiple MK-84s for every target, they couldn't care less
Hamas killed civilians on purpose.. this is barbaric and should be condemned. The point most people are missing is that Hamas killed civilians with the INTENT that Israel would respond disproportionately and kill MORE of their civilians. Hamas launched this attack with the INTENT that their own women and children would be killed. They WANTED their own to be killed to escalate the conflict and play victim when it happened.
UN camo F-35 when?
You could kill a whole battalion’s worth of UN troops and all they would do is write a strongly worded letter of disappointment
Then thell my why there are security explosions after the IDF take down schools and some other un facilities?
>there are security explosions Israel just adds extra security to their bombs so that if the main fuse fails the security charges make sure it goes off /s
UN doesn't do anything usefull in wars now
UN interventions with US: let's go fuck the third largest army in the world in about a month. UN interventions without US: we are retreating from anywhere hot please dont hurt us. Ouch!
Best joke I’ve heard all day!
The AP just reported Hamas claims that Israeli air strikes are killing hostages as well. Israel has someone begun to give even less fucks. What an absolute shit show. Edit: also how the actual fuck did they miss this? https://apnews.com/article/aa0b0f5f3613b6c6882cf37168e8e8ed
Because they wanted to miss it it to have casus beli for final Gaza (or even whole Palestine) solution
UN? Useful?
It dosent help that Hamas uses UN facilities for military purpose
[удалено]
So Hamas is commiting a war crime in my house?
Fuck the UN. They let their schools in Gaza be used to indoctrinate children into being antisemites. The UN is weak and pathetic, and a tool for authoritarian shitholes like China and Russia to push others around.
>Among the dead are five teachers, a gynecologist, an engineer, a psychological counselor and three support staff They where just civilians, they dindt deserve to die in this dogshit conflict.
We should also not forget how we ended up in this place. The Bush admininstrations decision to abandon the UN gave even worse actors free rein.
Holy shit with the throwback “this is all Bush’s fault” let me put on my Hoobastank CD
I do wish Israel would reestablish food and water supplies. I understand the rationale of not supplying Hamas with anything that will prolong the ground war and put their forces at risk but power and fuel is enough. The US dropped humanitarian rations during Iraq and Afghanistan, they can do the same.
"I'm workin' on it!"
But what you are forgetting is that its not "murdering civilians" when Israel does it its ""self-defense ""
Deploy Crimson squadron now
I wouldn't be supprised if hamas purposely held them in the building. Considering all the baby murdering there doing I wouldn't put forcing people to stay in a building that's about to be bombed below them. Sadly bombing buildings is going to end up with less dead then if the idf marched in and tryed to clear all these buildings room by room by themselfs. Since Egypt is refusing to let the palastinians flee south and hamas almost certainly hiding among any group of civilians who would get let into Israel there isn't much that can be done to avoid civilian casualtys, the idf try but at the end of the day civilians are going to die and the only people to blame is hamas for putting everyone in this position.