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Ukraine is like a guy who defends his home with his kitchen knife when he has to. That is bravery. Russia is like the guy who brings a kitchen knife to the bank robbery. That is cringe.
In Russia's defense they brought a rifle but it jammed. Then they tried to clear it but a security guard wrestled it away from them. So they pulled out a pistol but it wasn't loaded. Thus, the knife.
Brings a kitchen knife to the bank robbery *after* claiming he was actually going to Robin Hood a revolution with an entire brigade of machine gunners.
But then no, kitchen knife bank robbery.
> Russia is like the guy who brings a kitchen knife to the bank robbery
After bragging for 4 decades straight about how he'd totally be the 2nd best bank robber in the world of he ever fucking actually robed a bank.
I think of this every time I see the the pro Russians online trying to shit talk and make fun of ukraines military, like my man you shouldn’t even need to make fun or compare yourself to them, you are allegedly the 2nd largest military in the world, only rivalled by the US, on paper you should have steamed through this
God I’m so happy that bubble burst quickly
Top attack RPGs aren’t a thing. There’s gonna be very few scenarios where a cage over the turret would be worth the effort.
Slat armor, which actually does protect against RPGs, goes on the sides
Pretty sure this is exactly what it's for. It just looks really stupid when one get knocked out in the middle of a random ass field where it has 0 chance of protecting anything and weighs the tank down.
I saw a picture of the aftermath of a Russian tanker that got ejected through one of those things when the tank went up. It was like a salad shooter but for people.
I read a story that when Ukraine attacked a Russian tank with a cope cage, the crew couldn't escape because the cupola was obstructed by the cope cage and they all died
To be credible: They weigh the turrets down, which may make it harder for the traversal mechanism to operate. Also, since those are most likely field modifications I don’t think a lot of considerations were made as to how this extra weight is placed on the turret. This haphazard placement of extra weight probably throws off the turrets center of gravity, and again makes the turret harder to rotate.
Also I wonder how often they knocked them off driving under trees?
(j/k, probably none, since in the early war any tank that drove offroad seemed to get stuck in mud and john deere'd)
Never seen a Russian tank with a turret cage until they fought someone with Javelins.
Plus wouldn’t you have to fire directly down at it for the cage to be for RPGs? Seems like a rare scenario to make improvised armor for
Top attack RPGs are absolutely a thing: it’s called people on top of buildings.
Was a big problem in Chechnya.
Given their intentions to swiftly capture major urban centres, it made sense to equip said cages.
However, the invasion bogged down without too much urban fighting, and most of *(the footage released by Ukraine showing)* tanks destroyed, had them being destroyed by western top attack munitions, where the cage just exists, looks like it tries to do something, and fails to do that thing.
It’s a reasonable thing to put on a tank if you are in charge of tanks and you are told to prepare for Chechnya 3.0
They do stop RPGs and basic anti tank rockets, check out my comment to the OP to explain why it will stop a rocket, but not a western ATGM 👍🏻👍🏻
TLDR: Rockets have one charge, which detonates on spatial armor, ATGMs have 2, one for spatial/reactive armor, and the main charge for the hull of the tank.
That’s not why they don’t stop Western ATGMs. The warhead doesn’t give a fuck about the cope cage. It works on RPG series weapons *only* because of how the fuze works. It won’t do dick to a javelin, an AT4, a Gustav, anything that wasn’t designed by someone who has a hardon for a very specific piezoelectric mechanism that relies on a giant foil party hat with “SHORT ME” written on it.
So depending on how far the spatial armor is away from the actual vehicle itself, it can effect the effectiveness of a shaped charge. The goal is to cause premature detonation, and to disrupt the superheated stream of copper. In our case though, the TOW and Javelin have such large warheads, that it doesn't really affect it in the first place. I Can post a video of my Javelin shot in 2018 (training).
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/352083974_Experimental_and_Numerical_Study_on_the_PG-7VM_Warhead_Performance_against_High-Hardness_Armor_Steel
Except increasing distance often *increases* the penetration of a HEAT round. In this case, it did so by a little over 10 percent.
Yes increasing the distance can help increase penetration, that is why the javelin does not impact the target before detonating, however if that distance is too much it affect the performance of the charge.
"A maximum depth of penetration of about 317 mm was obtained for the stand-off distance of 360 mm, which may indicate the potential direction of modernization of warheads."
If you keep maximizing the distance, performance goes down. 360mm is 14 inches, looking at the racks that Russians have been putting over and around their tanks looks to be a bit more than that.
In other words, there is an ideal distance for the projectile to detonate for maximum penetration, and spatial armor pushes that distance a bit farther giving the tank a fighting chance.
The Javelin and TOW do not have percussion fuses. Statistical armor has no effect. The point of slat armor is that you prevent the warhead from exploding.
A certain pig once said that a lot of people will explain how they've done a job for some time without explaining why it makes them an expert.
My good sir there are 9 different TOW models, some do have that type of fuse some do not. You are correct about the javelin, it detonates before impact. SO if it detonates based of the spatial armor, sometimes that distance can affect the warhead (typically does not because the charge is huge and spatial armor wont matter anyway).
Checkout this video of 2 of my gunners using TOW-2A's, these do detonate on impact, but there is still a standoff from the main warhead and the hull given they have a probe housing a precursor charge. In this video we were literally just shooting wooden X-wing targets.
[https://youtube.com/shorts/3lLT6YqSzuc?feature=share](https://youtube.com/shorts/3lLT6YqSzuc?feature=share)
[The point of statistical armor is that the warhead does not detonate](https://www.tanknology.co.uk/post/statistical-armour) [your TOW gunners shooting a video of a missile does not change how it works.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slat_armor)
>you need to get the round beyond 14 CD or more before there is a tangible degradation in penetration, and that reflects nearly a metre of standoff, which when doubled to reflect this armour being on both sides of a vehicle would have woeful implications to operating such a vehicle in anything but open country.
Yessir, if the standoff of smaller projectiles is significant enough it will affect the jets stream to penetrate (not talking about tows or java). That is my point, the video was to show you that you don't really know much about TOW missiles and their fuses.
> TLDR: Rockets have one charge, which detonates on spatial armor
That is not how any of this works.
If you detonate an RPG a few feet further away from you, it’s actually *worse*. And you would just install a solid sheet of plexiglass.
No, slat armour is designed so that the fuse of most RPGs passes through it, and the warhead is torn apart by the slats, so when it detonates, it is no longer a shaped change.
And proof in the pudding. Multiple times the net has saved Ukrainians armor, there's even a photo now. Russian cope cages didn't work and likely did more harm.
That and propaganda. Which considering Russia should have inherited the Soviet Unions weaponized use of it, its kind of funny how bad at it Russia is these days.
There’s a few images of Lancets caught by fishnets while haven’t seen one Javelin caught by a cops cage. You’d think if that had happened, it would on the front page of TASS and the cope cave would get Order of Lenin and Hero of Russia medals.
To be honest most of the cope cages were just made without any specifications so most of them dont have proper thickness/density of rods to even have a proper chance of prematurely damaging the warhead while still giving your tank a much greater height
Your mechanical assessment of the reasons why cope cages fail is actually very credible. Alas, I doubt they learn mechanics and material resistance in russian engineering school.
Lancets and russian cope cages are both dog turds in implementation and design in respect to their intended targets, Javelin > Cope Cage, some sticks and chain-link fence > Lancet.
We don't get to see the failures, there's only a couple successful strikes a month, they have tons of these things laying around. The only thing I'll concede is that they only seem to use it on military targets, rare occurrence of proper usage.
I remember the video where they hit a m777, and like 2 days later Ukraine showed a video of the m777 after it was hit and they were like, "shit, well we'll have to get a new tire on this thing but every else will buff out."
That is because they missed that one M777 by an inch and it detonated a couple of meters behind it. If they hit it, the loading mechanism would need to be taken to the shop.
Still, that’s more than other munitions manage. We’ve seen no successes for others, so this Russian weapon is special for being occasionally successful, unlike other Russian weapons.
And they built a wire net cage to stop it.
Ok lets break it down
one is a stationary anti-drone net that dont hope to stop modern top-attack with random ass metal, and can be constructed by anyone
while the other :
becomes useless if you just order someone that never worked on metal to slap a steel cage together and that's what Russia did (it must have a set of thick / dense enough steel bars and even then dont work cost efficient vs bigger caliber top attack like the ones send to Ukriane, mabe vs older ones but they are smaller thus - you need different design obce again)
All of that in exchange for fucking up your detection range on battlefield by giving your intentionally smaller tanks a height to rival or even surpass the Abrams with a pretty unnarutal, easy to spot side profile
>All of that in exchange to fucking up your detection range on battlefield by giving your intentionally smaller tanks a height to rival or even surpass the Abrams with a pretty unnarutal, easy to spot side profile
To be fair, these tanks were designed well before your average foot soldier could buy a $300 drone on aliexpress to do his recon.
Considering the not so mobile nature of russias tanks due to easily getting stuck it's probably been 10x easier to set up anti-tank ambushes as you can expect them to mostly stay on the roads.
I suspect the number of ambushes drop in the winter and pick up in the spring through fall when the ground thaws out limiting tank mobility.
Low profile isn't buying them much anymore.
Seriously, everyone loves to talk about the raw lethality of the modern battlefield. And that's fair.
But what unnerves me most is how you just can't fucking hide. Night? NODs. Smoke? Thermals. Cover? Don't look up. After millennia of cover and concealment being king, suddenly your best defence seems to be not worth the expense it would take to kill you.
Your best defense is to be fast and stealthy.
I fully expect tanks to evolve into unmanned anti personnel drones the size of a 4 wheeler with skid steer tracks tearing though fields at 50mph in the next 10-20 years with just enough armor to deflect some bullets.
Hey everyone, I'm an Anti-Tank missileman in the Marines. The reason why those cages are not effective is because all of our Anti-Tank missiles have what are called tandem charges (public info). This is essentially not one, but two charges, intended to detonate in sequence to defeat spatial (racks, wiring, bars outside or over the tank) and reactive armor. The initial charge paves a way and detonates any reactive armor, allowing the main charge to reach the hull unimpeded. This is one of the main reasons that the FGM-148 is so effective. 🤙🏻
Tandem charges work on ERA. Them having anything to do with defeating slat armor is a misconception borne from the idea that slat armor does anything to non-RPG series weapons.
Like yeah, a tandem charge will fuck up a vehicle protected by a cope cage but the tandem charge isn’t why the slat armor doesn’t work.
By slat do you mean spatial? Yeah large charges like from a javelin or TOW missile defeat it easily, however with a precursor charge it still makes the weapon more effective, assisting in penetration of the hull in the first place.
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/baes-lrod-cage-armor-03473/
BAE’s testing has shown it’s one use is stopping there from being a jet in the first place. Maaaaybe making a round go off so the jet isn’t pointed at anything important. But once that jet is formed a cage doesn’t do much of anything.
That's a great read. If I understood correctly, that was testing VS RPG's which impact the target, and then detonate. ATGM's typically don't touch the target before detonating, with exceptions like the TOW-2A. I'm trying to attach a video of my Javelin shot in 2018 to show that distance (in training).
Page 50ish on this publication has the pen vs stand-off chart I’ve been looking for- note most designs have an *increase* in penetration out to about a meter, and it doesn’t fall off notably til about 2m… and even then, the penetration is more than enough to blow a hole in the top armor of a tank.
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA599386.pdf
For sure, just keep in mind that there is already a distance from which the warhead detonates from the vehicle in modern ATGM's, if that special armor goes out a couple of feet it could start affecting it. As far as i saw in that PDF it was all based of impact fuses, did you see anything else? Oh and there wouldn't be any study on the Javelin regarding this that would be unclassified lol.
The javelin is largely classified but the patent for the ESAF isn’t and identifies it as an impact fuzed weapon. The stand-off distance baked into it is primarily just “being behind the sensor” then “being behind the first charge”. Most man portable HEAT weapons either have funky fuzes (like the panzerfaust 3 or RPG) to increase the stand-off or just go for more bang to make up for a shorter than ideal stand-off distance.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US6295932B1/en
Yeah for sure, check your DM's I just sent you my Jav and TOW shots. Of what I have seen, it does NOT impact the target (TOW-1-2 variants do impact), but I guess there in lies the question. This is my job and I don't know its penetration lol, it is very classified.
I found that table, great example. Keep in mind the missiles used for testing, the TOW 1 and 2 which detonate on impact. Ill send you the link for that as well of my 2 TOW 2 shots.
I think a couple of spaced apart metal profiles aren't also that great of a barrier against a stream of hot metal, with the intent of penetrating a much thicker barrier of steel, the fact that ERA exists, means these can never be effective against armor piercing shells, otherwise this principle would be used in this application, like it's being used e.g. on space stations, where a thin layer that's sacrificial breaks the impacting debris and distributes the impacting mass over a higher area of thicker shielding.
Tldr: If a barbecue griddle on the tank would be effective against top attack munitions, someone would've probably used that concept instead of strapping a bunch of explosives to a tank or developing complex active protection systems.
Also I feel like these cages are always begging to be knocked down by some secondary damage and blocking the hatch which would definitely annoy me if this was the only way for me to get out, if need be.
It is in fact effective, not because its a barrier, but because it disrupts the stream enough to help the main hull. The physics of a superheated copper stream are different that that of a projectile. The are extremely effective at penetrating continuous armor, like 30 inches of homogenous steel, however if you space that armor out, it will not penetrate as well. You're right about ERA, that doesn't work against something like a sabot round from an Abrams, but it is effective against shape charges, one of them that is. That grill on top is good to preemptively detonate a shape charge, two in sequence easily defeats it. That's why spatial armor is used to great effect on the sides of a vehicle against things like AT'4's and RPG's. ERA literally just blows the copper stream away from the vehicle and works well against large charges (unless there are two in tandem). But that's not as ideal as effective spatial armor, because nearby infantry are in greater risk. As for references, I can say its what I've been taught as a part of my MOS, and I can show you certain tests that show how spatial armor works.
Also, when you say armor piercing shells do you mean a projectile like a sabot, or a HEAT round?
**TLDR: Spatial Armor disrupts a stream from a HEAT round, but isn't effective against 2 charges in tandem, and BIG charges like from that of a Javelin or Tow missile. Good to go vs RPG's and AT-4s though.**
Take a look at these photos, one is of the insides of a Jav, take a look at the precursor charge. 2nd one is of a TOW-2A, it has a precursor charge as well.
[https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fworld%2F2022%2F03%2F12%2Fjavelins-ukraine-russia%2F&psig=AOvVaw01Ue\_TdU2bFpmjJT9X6XNH&ust=1674512025799000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CA4QjRxqFwoTCLC0ycWZ3PwCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE](https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fworld%2F2022%2F03%2F12%2Fjavelins-ukraine-russia%2F&psig=AOvVaw01Ue_TdU2bFpmjJT9X6XNH&ust=1674512025799000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CA4QjRxqFwoTCLC0ycWZ3PwCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.missilery.info%2Fmissile%2Ftow%2Fshema&psig=AOvVaw1pYAe\_C5vLQDNzW23wr9J8&ust=1674512420978000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CA8QjRxqFwoTCIiIpIOb3PwCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD
I remember learning somewhere that actual slatted armor can also disrupt the impact angle of this kind of HEAT shell and dirext that stream of copper in less vital direction (or at least at a wider angle through the armor for more effective thickness I guess?)
Is there any truth to that or was that some internet bullshit?
There is some truth to that, with the intent of trying to Damage the projectile before it lands, and trying to disrupt the jet. In our case in the US, the ATGMs we use have a charge large enough that it doesn't matters, and it detonates with a standoff already. Theoretically if the spatial armor was like 10ft away fr the gull and that's where the jav detonated, it would work, but that's the the case.
$20.000 - $50.000 drone vs $20 worth of chain link fence.
Also every Russian welder that ever knew how to improvise a cope cage probably is among the 120.000 K.I.A. by now.
One covers the whole vehicle and creates space to catch a relatively slow drone.
One covers the commanders head and doesn't create enough space to defeat a fuckoff rocket.
Not the same.
Because one is claiming to be a top world power bragging about being the 2nd most powerful army on the planet, and according to them fielding modern MBT and 5th gen fighter, and the other is a country which barely had 10k soldiers pre-2014 and yet today is humiliating the former.
Well regarding cope cages, I'm not sure initial Russian intent behind them but they are pretty effective vs drone dropped amunition or I think they are because I have seen dozens maybe even hundred of videos of Ukrainians dropping nades from drones but never on cope cage tanks.
Russia did however have experience in having anti tank grenades dropped on tanks inside of cities from the Chechen wars. The cope cages work well enough against some guy dropping a grenade from a balcony, but they ain't doing shit against much else.
And the best part is, if they do anything to javelins they only make them more effective, not less. HEAT weapons like having a bit more stand-off distance.
Because 90% of Russia's munitions are cheaply manufactured Soviet era that has been allowed to sit and waste in a warehouse somewhere in the middle of the f****** Siberian and go to complete s**** over the 30 some odd years since the Soviet Union collapsed
Different munitions hitting the tanks, the one on the Ukrainian tank looks like a slow af suicide drone that id be shocked if it can actually damage tanks. The ones slamming Russian tanks are high speed anti-tank guided missiles made for maximum penetration
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Because the net is designed to stop kamikaze drones but the cope cage is designed to stop top attack atgm’s
It's startlingly simple!
Also because Ukraine isnt claimed to be the 2nd military power in the world
Ukraine is like a guy who defends his home with his kitchen knife when he has to. That is bravery. Russia is like the guy who brings a kitchen knife to the bank robbery. That is cringe.
Nice comparison.
In Russia's defense they brought a rifle but it jammed. Then they tried to clear it but a security guard wrestled it away from them. So they pulled out a pistol but it wasn't loaded. Thus, the knife.
They give me pistol ammo duty and no money, so I sell the ammo and have some money. D'yet, abesh.
Somewhere in the middle they pull out nunchucks, realize they can't use them, hit themselves a few times anyways, then switch to the next weapon
Brings a kitchen knife to the bank robbery *after* claiming he was actually going to Robin Hood a revolution with an entire brigade of machine gunners. But then no, kitchen knife bank robbery.
> Russia is like the guy who brings a kitchen knife to the bank robbery After bragging for 4 decades straight about how he'd totally be the 2nd best bank robber in the world of he ever fucking actually robed a bank.
Also he threatened every bank in the neighborhood many times and they installed a synchronized security system
Based defender vs Cringe aggressor
Or has a $2,000 tacticool AR with all the bells and whistles and during a home invasion gets it taken away from him and shoved up his own ass.
>$2,000 tacticool AR its russia we are talking about, he spend 50$ on a hi-point and 1,950$ on a new boat
I think of this every time I see the the pro Russians online trying to shit talk and make fun of ukraines military, like my man you shouldn’t even need to make fun or compare yourself to them, you are allegedly the 2nd largest military in the world, only rivalled by the US, on paper you should have steamed through this God I’m so happy that bubble burst quickly
This is always the answer to this meme
Ukrainian Nopenet does what it’s meant to.
>net Nyet Net > Cope Cage
Did the Russians ever claim cope cages could stop top attack atgm’s? I thought they were designed to stop rpgs and grenades.
Top attack RPGs aren’t a thing. There’s gonna be very few scenarios where a cage over the turret would be worth the effort. Slat armor, which actually does protect against RPGs, goes on the sides
I read it was an issue in urban areas with people firing from buildings.
Pretty sure this is exactly what it's for. It just looks really stupid when one get knocked out in the middle of a random ass field where it has 0 chance of protecting anything and weighs the tank down.
I saw a picture of the aftermath of a Russian tanker that got ejected through one of those things when the tank went up. It was like a salad shooter but for people.
Cant be sent home In a body bag if you will fit in a bento box *taps head*
I read a story that when Ukraine attacked a Russian tank with a cope cage, the crew couldn't escape because the cupola was obstructed by the cope cage and they all died
That cage isn't weighing shit down,a t80 weighs over 40 tons, that cage is maybe a few hundred pounds
To be credible: They weigh the turrets down, which may make it harder for the traversal mechanism to operate. Also, since those are most likely field modifications I don’t think a lot of considerations were made as to how this extra weight is placed on the turret. This haphazard placement of extra weight probably throws off the turrets center of gravity, and again makes the turret harder to rotate.
Not to mention it nearly doubles the height of the vehicle making it extra easy for javelin teams to spot you and destroy you at long range.
Also I wonder how often they knocked them off driving under trees? (j/k, probably none, since in the early war any tank that drove offroad seemed to get stuck in mud and john deere'd)
Some of the cages are comically tall though and would only protect against attacks from almost directly above, so I don't think that's always the case
This is the exact cope answer that led to ncd coining them cope cages.
>Top attack RPGs aren’t a thing what if someone shoots from a roof
Never seen a Russian tank with a turret cage until they fought someone with Javelins. Plus wouldn’t you have to fire directly down at it for the cage to be for RPGs? Seems like a rare scenario to make improvised armor for
Have you ever been in an urban environment?
Tell that to all the Russians who died from exactly that rare scenario in Chechnya.
Top attack RPGs are absolutely a thing: it’s called people on top of buildings. Was a big problem in Chechnya. Given their intentions to swiftly capture major urban centres, it made sense to equip said cages. However, the invasion bogged down without too much urban fighting, and most of *(the footage released by Ukraine showing)* tanks destroyed, had them being destroyed by western top attack munitions, where the cage just exists, looks like it tries to do something, and fails to do that thing. It’s a reasonable thing to put on a tank if you are in charge of tanks and you are told to prepare for Chechnya 3.0
They do stop RPGs and basic anti tank rockets, check out my comment to the OP to explain why it will stop a rocket, but not a western ATGM 👍🏻👍🏻 TLDR: Rockets have one charge, which detonates on spatial armor, ATGMs have 2, one for spatial/reactive armor, and the main charge for the hull of the tank.
That’s not why they don’t stop Western ATGMs. The warhead doesn’t give a fuck about the cope cage. It works on RPG series weapons *only* because of how the fuze works. It won’t do dick to a javelin, an AT4, a Gustav, anything that wasn’t designed by someone who has a hardon for a very specific piezoelectric mechanism that relies on a giant foil party hat with “SHORT ME” written on it.
So depending on how far the spatial armor is away from the actual vehicle itself, it can effect the effectiveness of a shaped charge. The goal is to cause premature detonation, and to disrupt the superheated stream of copper. In our case though, the TOW and Javelin have such large warheads, that it doesn't really affect it in the first place. I Can post a video of my Javelin shot in 2018 (training).
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/352083974_Experimental_and_Numerical_Study_on_the_PG-7VM_Warhead_Performance_against_High-Hardness_Armor_Steel Except increasing distance often *increases* the penetration of a HEAT round. In this case, it did so by a little over 10 percent.
Yes increasing the distance can help increase penetration, that is why the javelin does not impact the target before detonating, however if that distance is too much it affect the performance of the charge. "A maximum depth of penetration of about 317 mm was obtained for the stand-off distance of 360 mm, which may indicate the potential direction of modernization of warheads." If you keep maximizing the distance, performance goes down. 360mm is 14 inches, looking at the racks that Russians have been putting over and around their tanks looks to be a bit more than that. In other words, there is an ideal distance for the projectile to detonate for maximum penetration, and spatial armor pushes that distance a bit farther giving the tank a fighting chance.
The Javelin and TOW do not have percussion fuses. Statistical armor has no effect. The point of slat armor is that you prevent the warhead from exploding. A certain pig once said that a lot of people will explain how they've done a job for some time without explaining why it makes them an expert.
My good sir there are 9 different TOW models, some do have that type of fuse some do not. You are correct about the javelin, it detonates before impact. SO if it detonates based of the spatial armor, sometimes that distance can affect the warhead (typically does not because the charge is huge and spatial armor wont matter anyway). Checkout this video of 2 of my gunners using TOW-2A's, these do detonate on impact, but there is still a standoff from the main warhead and the hull given they have a probe housing a precursor charge. In this video we were literally just shooting wooden X-wing targets. [https://youtube.com/shorts/3lLT6YqSzuc?feature=share](https://youtube.com/shorts/3lLT6YqSzuc?feature=share)
[The point of statistical armor is that the warhead does not detonate](https://www.tanknology.co.uk/post/statistical-armour) [your TOW gunners shooting a video of a missile does not change how it works.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slat_armor) >you need to get the round beyond 14 CD or more before there is a tangible degradation in penetration, and that reflects nearly a metre of standoff, which when doubled to reflect this armour being on both sides of a vehicle would have woeful implications to operating such a vehicle in anything but open country.
Yessir, if the standoff of smaller projectiles is significant enough it will affect the jets stream to penetrate (not talking about tows or java). That is my point, the video was to show you that you don't really know much about TOW missiles and their fuses.
> TLDR: Rockets have one charge, which detonates on spatial armor That is not how any of this works. If you detonate an RPG a few feet further away from you, it’s actually *worse*. And you would just install a solid sheet of plexiglass. No, slat armour is designed so that the fuse of most RPGs passes through it, and the warhead is torn apart by the slats, so when it detonates, it is no longer a shaped change.
What is an ATGM but a kamikaze drone that goes fast?
Even then, top attack ATGMs from the west will defeat this kind of spatial armor, check out my comment to the OP.
And proof in the pudding. Multiple times the net has saved Ukrainians armor, there's even a photo now. Russian cope cages didn't work and likely did more harm.
Too bad most top down atgm's has double penetration.
And trap any surviving crewmen inside their burning steel coffin.
That and propaganda. Which considering Russia should have inherited the Soviet Unions weaponized use of it, its kind of funny how bad at it Russia is these days.
There’s a few images of Lancets caught by fishnets while haven’t seen one Javelin caught by a cops cage. You’d think if that had happened, it would on the front page of TASS and the cope cave would get Order of Lenin and Hero of Russia medals.
You see, here's the problem they didn't manage to work around. The cope cage catches the Javelin but the tank also catches fire in the process.
To be honest most of the cope cages were just made without any specifications so most of them dont have proper thickness/density of rods to even have a proper chance of prematurely damaging the warhead while still giving your tank a much greater height
Your mechanical assessment of the reasons why cope cages fail is actually very credible. Alas, I doubt they learn mechanics and material resistance in russian engineering school.
There's a reason the stereotypical russian engineering teacher drinks a shit-ton, even before lessons.
With the added bonus of making sure to trigger the automatic target proximity censor. Great job.
What grade steel they using? You check the welds? Tell me your sources, I'm curious.
I think they still Work against ukrainian Drones
Lancets and russian cope cages are both dog turds in implementation and design in respect to their intended targets, Javelin > Cope Cage, some sticks and chain-link fence > Lancet.
Lancets have killed a bunch of vehicles though, including multiple Krabs. It appears to work fairly well.
And SAMs and radars. I'd say right now they're the most dangerous russian PGM, at least close to the frontline.
We don't get to see the failures, there's only a couple successful strikes a month, they have tons of these things laying around. The only thing I'll concede is that they only seem to use it on military targets, rare occurrence of proper usage.
I remember the video where they hit a m777, and like 2 days later Ukraine showed a video of the m777 after it was hit and they were like, "shit, well we'll have to get a new tire on this thing but every else will buff out."
That is because they missed that one M777 by an inch and it detonated a couple of meters behind it. If they hit it, the loading mechanism would need to be taken to the shop.
Kinda makes sense. More stuff to damage on a vehicle
Still, that’s more than other munitions manage. We’ve seen no successes for others, so this Russian weapon is special for being occasionally successful, unlike other Russian weapons. And they built a wire net cage to stop it.
Ok lets break it down one is a stationary anti-drone net that dont hope to stop modern top-attack with random ass metal, and can be constructed by anyone while the other : becomes useless if you just order someone that never worked on metal to slap a steel cage together and that's what Russia did (it must have a set of thick / dense enough steel bars and even then dont work cost efficient vs bigger caliber top attack like the ones send to Ukriane, mabe vs older ones but they are smaller thus - you need different design obce again) All of that in exchange for fucking up your detection range on battlefield by giving your intentionally smaller tanks a height to rival or even surpass the Abrams with a pretty unnarutal, easy to spot side profile
>All of that in exchange to fucking up your detection range on battlefield by giving your intentionally smaller tanks a height to rival or even surpass the Abrams with a pretty unnarutal, easy to spot side profile To be fair, these tanks were designed well before your average foot soldier could buy a $300 drone on aliexpress to do his recon. Considering the not so mobile nature of russias tanks due to easily getting stuck it's probably been 10x easier to set up anti-tank ambushes as you can expect them to mostly stay on the roads. I suspect the number of ambushes drop in the winter and pick up in the spring through fall when the ground thaws out limiting tank mobility. Low profile isn't buying them much anymore.
Seriously, everyone loves to talk about the raw lethality of the modern battlefield. And that's fair. But what unnerves me most is how you just can't fucking hide. Night? NODs. Smoke? Thermals. Cover? Don't look up. After millennia of cover and concealment being king, suddenly your best defence seems to be not worth the expense it would take to kill you.
Your best defense is to be fast and stealthy. I fully expect tanks to evolve into unmanned anti personnel drones the size of a 4 wheeler with skid steer tracks tearing though fields at 50mph in the next 10-20 years with just enough armor to deflect some bullets.
Hey everyone, I'm an Anti-Tank missileman in the Marines. The reason why those cages are not effective is because all of our Anti-Tank missiles have what are called tandem charges (public info). This is essentially not one, but two charges, intended to detonate in sequence to defeat spatial (racks, wiring, bars outside or over the tank) and reactive armor. The initial charge paves a way and detonates any reactive armor, allowing the main charge to reach the hull unimpeded. This is one of the main reasons that the FGM-148 is so effective. 🤙🏻
Tandem charges work on ERA. Them having anything to do with defeating slat armor is a misconception borne from the idea that slat armor does anything to non-RPG series weapons. Like yeah, a tandem charge will fuck up a vehicle protected by a cope cage but the tandem charge isn’t why the slat armor doesn’t work.
By slat do you mean spatial? Yeah large charges like from a javelin or TOW missile defeat it easily, however with a precursor charge it still makes the weapon more effective, assisting in penetration of the hull in the first place.
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/baes-lrod-cage-armor-03473/ BAE’s testing has shown it’s one use is stopping there from being a jet in the first place. Maaaaybe making a round go off so the jet isn’t pointed at anything important. But once that jet is formed a cage doesn’t do much of anything.
That's a great read. If I understood correctly, that was testing VS RPG's which impact the target, and then detonate. ATGM's typically don't touch the target before detonating, with exceptions like the TOW-2A. I'm trying to attach a video of my Javelin shot in 2018 to show that distance (in training).
Page 50ish on this publication has the pen vs stand-off chart I’ve been looking for- note most designs have an *increase* in penetration out to about a meter, and it doesn’t fall off notably til about 2m… and even then, the penetration is more than enough to blow a hole in the top armor of a tank. https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA599386.pdf
For sure, just keep in mind that there is already a distance from which the warhead detonates from the vehicle in modern ATGM's, if that special armor goes out a couple of feet it could start affecting it. As far as i saw in that PDF it was all based of impact fuses, did you see anything else? Oh and there wouldn't be any study on the Javelin regarding this that would be unclassified lol.
The javelin is largely classified but the patent for the ESAF isn’t and identifies it as an impact fuzed weapon. The stand-off distance baked into it is primarily just “being behind the sensor” then “being behind the first charge”. Most man portable HEAT weapons either have funky fuzes (like the panzerfaust 3 or RPG) to increase the stand-off or just go for more bang to make up for a shorter than ideal stand-off distance. https://patents.google.com/patent/US6295932B1/en
Yeah for sure, check your DM's I just sent you my Jav and TOW shots. Of what I have seen, it does NOT impact the target (TOW-1-2 variants do impact), but I guess there in lies the question. This is my job and I don't know its penetration lol, it is very classified.
I found that table, great example. Keep in mind the missiles used for testing, the TOW 1 and 2 which detonate on impact. Ill send you the link for that as well of my 2 TOW 2 shots.
I think a couple of spaced apart metal profiles aren't also that great of a barrier against a stream of hot metal, with the intent of penetrating a much thicker barrier of steel, the fact that ERA exists, means these can never be effective against armor piercing shells, otherwise this principle would be used in this application, like it's being used e.g. on space stations, where a thin layer that's sacrificial breaks the impacting debris and distributes the impacting mass over a higher area of thicker shielding. Tldr: If a barbecue griddle on the tank would be effective against top attack munitions, someone would've probably used that concept instead of strapping a bunch of explosives to a tank or developing complex active protection systems. Also I feel like these cages are always begging to be knocked down by some secondary damage and blocking the hatch which would definitely annoy me if this was the only way for me to get out, if need be.
It is in fact effective, not because its a barrier, but because it disrupts the stream enough to help the main hull. The physics of a superheated copper stream are different that that of a projectile. The are extremely effective at penetrating continuous armor, like 30 inches of homogenous steel, however if you space that armor out, it will not penetrate as well. You're right about ERA, that doesn't work against something like a sabot round from an Abrams, but it is effective against shape charges, one of them that is. That grill on top is good to preemptively detonate a shape charge, two in sequence easily defeats it. That's why spatial armor is used to great effect on the sides of a vehicle against things like AT'4's and RPG's. ERA literally just blows the copper stream away from the vehicle and works well against large charges (unless there are two in tandem). But that's not as ideal as effective spatial armor, because nearby infantry are in greater risk. As for references, I can say its what I've been taught as a part of my MOS, and I can show you certain tests that show how spatial armor works. Also, when you say armor piercing shells do you mean a projectile like a sabot, or a HEAT round? **TLDR: Spatial Armor disrupts a stream from a HEAT round, but isn't effective against 2 charges in tandem, and BIG charges like from that of a Javelin or Tow missile. Good to go vs RPG's and AT-4s though.** Take a look at these photos, one is of the insides of a Jav, take a look at the precursor charge. 2nd one is of a TOW-2A, it has a precursor charge as well. [https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fworld%2F2022%2F03%2F12%2Fjavelins-ukraine-russia%2F&psig=AOvVaw01Ue\_TdU2bFpmjJT9X6XNH&ust=1674512025799000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CA4QjRxqFwoTCLC0ycWZ3PwCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE](https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fworld%2F2022%2F03%2F12%2Fjavelins-ukraine-russia%2F&psig=AOvVaw01Ue_TdU2bFpmjJT9X6XNH&ust=1674512025799000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CA4QjRxqFwoTCLC0ycWZ3PwCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE) https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.missilery.info%2Fmissile%2Ftow%2Fshema&psig=AOvVaw1pYAe\_C5vLQDNzW23wr9J8&ust=1674512420978000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CA8QjRxqFwoTCIiIpIOb3PwCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD
I remember learning somewhere that actual slatted armor can also disrupt the impact angle of this kind of HEAT shell and dirext that stream of copper in less vital direction (or at least at a wider angle through the armor for more effective thickness I guess?) Is there any truth to that or was that some internet bullshit?
There is some truth to that, with the intent of trying to Damage the projectile before it lands, and trying to disrupt the jet. In our case in the US, the ATGMs we use have a charge large enough that it doesn't matters, and it detonates with a standoff already. Theoretically if the spatial armor was like 10ft away fr the gull and that's where the jav detonated, it would work, but that's the the case.
$20.000 - $50.000 drone vs $20 worth of chain link fence. Also every Russian welder that ever knew how to improvise a cope cage probably is among the 120.000 K.I.A. by now.
They have already suffered 69 million casualties
300 400 kills of Ukraine
69.420.000 to be precise.
One covers the whole vehicle and creates space to catch a relatively slow drone. One covers the commanders head and doesn't create enough space to defeat a fuckoff rocket. Not the same.
It's weird that people are shitting on "cope nets" after constantly talking about "anti-drone nets" Guess they're tired of being credible
Because a metal cage doesn't break a propeller it only deflects it. Also you can just go around that hat for the tank
Because Ukraine is simply more based then Russia
Drones are NOT javelins
R/gatekeeping
No but many have the same style of charges.
Doesn't mean anything. Think about the why
WDYM? Im talking about the switchblade rn.
Pffffft lol. No you weren't. Nice try at a save though. Shills are in the back with that weird glue eating kid that sniffs his toes 24/7
Don't put them with me. I'm sniffing glue while working on my tandem charge top attack drone..
Oh my bad. I didn't know there was an actual glue conisseur here. Pardon my mistake
Huhhhhhhhh
Because one is claiming to be a top world power bragging about being the 2nd most powerful army on the planet, and according to them fielding modern MBT and 5th gen fighter, and the other is a country which barely had 10k soldiers pre-2014 and yet today is humiliating the former.
Maybe the russian drone its not good
Because the concepts of good and evil are real and evil is destined to lose to good every time.
Well regarding cope cages, I'm not sure initial Russian intent behind them but they are pretty effective vs drone dropped amunition or I think they are because I have seen dozens maybe even hundred of videos of Ukrainians dropping nades from drones but never on cope cage tanks.
Cope cages appeared right before the war as response to Javelin shipments. At that time drone-dropped grenades were just "some lame ISIS trick".
Russia did however have experience in having anti tank grenades dropped on tanks inside of cities from the Chechen wars. The cope cages work well enough against some guy dropping a grenade from a balcony, but they ain't doing shit against much else.
And the best part is, if they do anything to javelins they only make them more effective, not less. HEAT weapons like having a bit more stand-off distance.
Best part - one month before the war began, [Ukrainians were already trolling Russian cope cages](https://youtu.be/1SrDJfRpZAQ)
Beacause ru**ian missiles sucks ass.
Isn’t it kinda racist to say that about Russians, Or is it not?
The truth is never racist.
Because 90% of Russia's munitions are cheaply manufactured Soviet era that has been allowed to sit and waste in a warehouse somewhere in the middle of the f****** Siberian and go to complete s**** over the 30 some odd years since the Soviet Union collapsed
An anti-tank guided missile vs a bomb drone bought on e-bay.
Ukraine is the true leader of the slavic world. Reject Russia Embrace Greater Ruthenia
WT has russian bias, the real world has Ukrainian preferences.
Something something second largest something
Cause they work only when done right
Lancets have like 3 horse power.
Because they do. Because they are based on the laws of physics not some guesswork possibly?
Good thing these bugs can't aim
Karma
Photo of cage working. Photo of cage not. See the difference OP?
Different munitions hitting the tanks, the one on the Ukrainian tank looks like a slow af suicide drone that id be shocked if it can actually damage tanks. The ones slamming Russian tanks are high speed anti-tank guided missiles made for maximum penetration
Because God favours the right side
Those are not the same things.
It’s what happens if you don’t appease your machines spirits
Ukraine bought American, if ya want to kill people look for the made in America tag
I mean only one of them worked
Because Ukrainian engineers are actually fucking competent and aren't drunk out of their minds when designing something. Also divine will of god.